Prabhupāda: Yes, Prahlada Maharaja said. Yes. About this body. It is arrangement, according to different body. Now, these swans, they have left this, defending, they're going away. This is defending only. Yes. And as soon as they're on the water, they think, "Oh, we are safe because these rascals cannot come in the water." (laughter) They are thinking about us "rascals." As we are thinking about them that they are lower animals, so they are also thinking, "These are rascals." Just like some father rebukes a son, the son also thinks of the father as rascal, "Unnecessarily he's chastising me." There is a proverb that as the child grows... (break) ...also thinks that "This boy is a fool; he'll do wrong by..." This is stated. And the child is stated in a different way. Just like sometimes our audience also. When we speak they think, "What nonsense he's speaking. Oh, Kṛṣṇa, what is this Kṛṣṇa? Let us enjoy." They are not purified. So this Prahlada Mahārāja says that according to the body, the specific facilities of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is already arranged.
Different bodies (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"different bodies"
|"different body"
|"different boyhood body"
|"different material bodies"
|"different material body"
|"different transcendental bodies"
|"different type body"
|"different unnatural bodies"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Remote chance in the present way of going there. But this is not remote. If one wants to go there, there is a particular ritualistic process. If you adopt that, then you can go in your next life. That means after quitting this body you get a different body and you get your birth there. That is Vedic process.
Reporter: Did you say through a particular ritualistic process you can go there in your next life?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: Okay. Now I still want to find out if you have any feelings about, say, if...
Prabhupāda: Going there with this body?
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there will be no contradiction. Just clearly try to understand.
Reporter: Okay. Then I'll try to repeat what you said and see if I am correct.
Prabhupāda: I'll repeat. I'll repeat. First thing is that to enter into the moon planet you have to prepare yourself for a different body. If that body, you think that it is already made by the spacesuit, spacesuit is that different body, then it will be contradiction to my statement. But I say that with the spacesuit that you have manufactured, that is not fit to enter there. Now it is clear? The spacesuit is not fit for entering there. Is that clear?
Reporter: Yes.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā philosophy. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). After destruction of this body the living entity is not destroyed. He is there. That we can understand. Just like in your childhood, you had a small body. That body is no more, but you are existing. So it is natural, when this body will not exist, I will exist in another body. It is not very difficult to understand. So this theory that body is eternal..., soul is eternal and body is temporary, that's a fact. Therefore this life, this present life, is meant for manufacturing the next body. That is Vedic knowledge. We are creating... Just like a boy. He is studying very nicely. So he's creating next body, a very educated young body. By education he can get nice job, nice place, nice position. So he's creating his next body. Similarly, we are creating our next body according to our karma. So Kṛṣṇa says that "You create a body so that you can come to Me." Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. The whole Vedic philosophy is that if you want to go to some planet—just like people are trying to go to moon planet. So you have to create a body like that. You cannot go in this body. They're attempting to go with this body. That will be failure. It will be not possible. In every planet the atmosphere, the..., everything is different. So you have to create a different body to go to a particular type of planet. There are millions and thousands of planets. Moon planet is one of them.
Prabhupāda: So now people do not wish to consider also this point, that "If I am eternal, if I am changing my place, my dress, my occupation every fifty years or ten years or twelve years according to the dress..." The cats and dogs, they live for ten years. The cows live for twenty years, and the man lives for, say, hundred years. Trees lives for thousands years. But everyone has to change. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). As we have to change our old dress, similarly, this body has to be changed. And we are changing. Changing every moment. That is a fact. This boy will grow also some day like you, like me. This body will not stay. I had a body like this, say, fifty years ago or sixty years ago, but that body is now missing. I have got a different body. So everyone is changing body in this way. We do not know where that body gone, but ultimately also, we shall change, and we shall enter another body, and again we have to begin new set of work, leaving all aside.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Kṛṣṇa, he'll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he's not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vāṇīshed, again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world. He is immediately... Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body. Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog's body, sometimes you are accepting king's body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear?
Prabhupāda: That is also visible in lower animal society. So our conclusion, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that this body, human body, it is not meant for working very hard for sense gratification. In the modern civilization the ultimate goal, aim, is sense gratification. That's all. Beyond that, they do not know anything more. They do not know what is next life. There is no department of knowledge or science, scientific department, to study what is there after life, after finishing this body. That is a great, I mean to say, department of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehe. Deha means this body. So there is a dehinaḥ who owns the body, dehi. So dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The dehi, the owner of the body, is within, and the body's changing from one form to another. The body of a child, baby, a certain type of form, it changes into another type of form when he's child, another type when boy, another type when he's young, another type, he's old. This is going on, but the owner of the body existing. Similarly, when this body will be completely changed, another body he will accept. So people do not understand this. As we are accepting different body even in this present life from babyhood to childhood, from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood... That's a fact. Everyone knows it. I was a child, but that childhood body is no more. I have got a different body. Similarly, what is the difficulty to understand: when this body will be no more, I'll have to accept another body? It is great science.
Prabhupāda: So that was Vedic civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, everyone is expert, but every is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is no bodily barrier. No. "Because I have got a particular type of body, therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is forbidden for me." No, that is not. In any body, any circumstances, you can cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But not material. But people, they do not know. They think that "Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no need, but let me improve my bodily comfort." This is called illusion. He cannot improve, even by an inch, the burden, but still... But you can improve, or you can purify, your consciousness. That is open to you, oh, irrespective of bodily (indistinct). And that is actually happening. You have got a different body from the before. (indistinct) But everyone, your taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Kṛṣṇa says, "It doesn't matter what kind of body you have got-low born, or high born, or this born or that born. I have no such restriction. If you want Me, te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), you are all My parts and parcels. Every one of you are equally important to Me." And similarly, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa also sees.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from ordinary people. So they can do some studies, research, on different bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is different from the so many bodies.
Prabhupāda: There is differentiation. That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible because (indistinct) more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take brain, they are going to study—that is another foolishness, another rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientists. Just like ordinary machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by somebody. Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it works automatically. This simple thing these rascals they do not understand. You may have got a very big nice machine, I may not have. But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the machine itself only. Such rascaldom.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: World is vast. So according to your karma... Just like you have got a particular type of body. You are young man, there is another young man also. Still, his body and your body is not exactly the same. His bodily feature, your bodily feature, his intelligence, your intelligence, they are all different. But a child grows to become young man, that's a fact. You are a child, another child was there. So they have got now different body. Just like you have got a different body from your childhood life. Is it not? But you know that you had a childhood body, although the body is not there. This is transmigration from one body to another. Just like a dream at night. You change this body. You accept another body. And although you're lying down on your bed, you've gone to some other place. Subtle body. Take for... This is a fact that we change our bodies so many ways, but I, the soul, I remain. So therefore, when this body will not exist I'll exist in another body. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can do without taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. (pause) The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Whatever desire the living entities had before the annihilation, that became the, the living entities enter into different bodies according to their...
Prabhupāda: Desire.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...desire.
Prabhupāda: He wanted a certain type of life. So nature gives him. "All right, take this body." He desires in a certain way, means he's associating with the quality of nature in a method, and according to that association, he's getting a particular type of body. Mind, mind is the creative force. Thinking. Thinking, feeling, willing. These are the psychological functions. So, first of all, thinking. Then he develops to work. And it is work you get a particular type of situation. (Break) One enters into the body of a pig. Then he'll have to go under the evolutionary process. Just like if you, if you are on the topmost staircase. Somehow or other you fall down. Then again you have to go, step by step. This is the... The steps are always there. Not that the steps are created for you. No. The steps are already there.
Prabhupāda: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Kṛṣṇa. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. Māyā has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is kuṇṭha, the world of kuṇṭha, anxieties. Everyone. Birds, beasts, human beings. There must be kuṇṭha. So God is Vaikuṇṭha. The vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane. This is also chanting, kīrtana, to describe about Vaikuṇṭha. Vaikuṇṭhaloka, Vaikuṇṭha person, Vaikuṇṭha devotees. So this is the remedy of bhavauṣadhi. Bhava. Bhava means to take birth. Bhava. This is called bhava-saṁsāra, this material world. Here bhava, you take birth, you live for some time, again you die, again take birth. This is going on. Therefore it is called bhava-saṁsāra, repeatedly taking birth and death in different species of life, different planets and different forms, 8,400,000 species, varieties. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva (CC Madhya 19.151), we living entities, we are wandering in this way, changing different bodies, different situations, different position and in this way wandering up and down, brahmāṇḍa bhramite, within this universe. Sometimes in the upper, heavenly planet, sometimes down in the hellish planet.
Prabhupāda: Read the purport.
Pradyumna: "The Lord has spoken about the peculiarity of His birth. Although He may appear like an ordinary person, He remembers everything of His many, many past births, whereas a common man cannot remember what he has done even a few hours before. If someone is asked what he did exactly at the same time one day earlier, it would be very difficult for a common man to answer immediately. He would surely have to dredge his memory to recall what he was doing exactly at the same time one day before. And yet, men often dare claim to be God, or Kṛṣṇa. One should not be misled by such meaningless claims. Then again, the Lord explains His prakṛti, or His form. Prakṛti means nature, as well as svarūpa, or one's own form. The Lord says that He appears in His own body. He does not change His body as the common living entity changes from one body to another. The conditioned soul may have one kind of body in the present birth, but yet a different body in the next birth.
Prabhupāda: But that body is no longer there; your childhood body, that is not existing. Now you are existing in a different body. So you were existing, that's a fact. Because you remember. But that body's not existing. Similarly, when this body will not exist, you'll exist. This is natural conclusion. Your, that childhood body is no longer existing. Your youthhood body is no longer existing. That's a fact. And it is also a fact that you had such and such body. Therefore you, as the soul, you are permanent, even changing so many types of bodies. Similarly, the conclusion should be when you give up this body, you'll be in another body.
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ.
Prabhupāda: Now in that body he is thinking according to his body, a dog is thinking according to the doggish body. A man is thinking according to the man's body. So thinking and everything is changed with the change of the body. Just like this child is. This child, she cannot concentrate because due to the body. Other gentlemen, ladies, they can concentrate. So she has to get a different body to have a different mentality. So in other words, with the change of the body the mentality changes. So in this body I am thinking of France, and if my next body, it is not in France or is not human, I will think otherwise. So the whole duration of my life which I thought in one way, that is simply wasted. Simply wasted. They do not know. This knowledge is lacking. There is no such knowledge in the university, any education, nothing. Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think.
Prabhupāda: That is ultimate goal. So long we do not go back to home, back to Godhead, we have to, in our material existence, we have to change from one body to another. That is going on. And there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies. The cats and dogs, they are also living entities, but they have got a different type of body. Every one of us, different type body. Even they are children, their body is different from your body. Even the (indistinct). Although their body is obtained, there are some similarities. But if you analyze very scrutinizingly there will be some difference from your body, from your daughter's body, from your boy's body. So every body, every living entity is getting a certain type of body according to his desire. According to his desire. So that desire means material enjoyment. Just like you have got certain desire to become champion in racing. Another body has got desire to become something else. Another body has got desire for something else. So we have got this freedom by the grace of God or Kṛṣṇa. Because we are children.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So... We... This is the first step of spiritual understanding. That one must know that he's not this body. Actually anyone can understand. It is a very simple thing. I'm not this body because I had many types of body, in this life also, a child's body, a baby's body, boy's body, youth's body. Now we have got different body. So the body's changing. That's a fact. The child, you do not possess any more that, your childhood body. It is gone. Your boyhood body—gone, your youth-hood body—gone. Now you have got a different body. So although the bodies are not existing, you are existing. That's a fact.
Guest (1): Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, the conclusion should be that body may change or may not remain, but the soul is eternal. Therefore, the next body means when this body will be useless... I am old man, you are also getting old. What is your age now? What is your age now?
Prabhupāda: Purport?
Śrutakīrti: It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation, but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, "I am the Father." The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately.
Prabhupāda: These are animal conceptions. So anyone who is accepting this body as the self, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ. Go means cows and kharaḥ means asses. So this civilization based on the bodily necessities of life is animal civilization. Because we are not this body, we are spirit soul, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: dehino 'smin dehe. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The soul is within the body and it is transmigrating from one type of body to another. Even in this life. Just like I was in the baby's body, I was in a child's body, I was in a boy's body. Those bodies are gone. But I remember that I was in such and such bodies. But I am now in a different body. Therefore, although my bodies have changed so many times, I am cognizant, I know that I had such and such body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. To transmigrate from one body to another. This is the authoritative statement of Bhagavad-gītā. There are so many serious students of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, his photographs were always with the Bhagavad-gītā, standing. But he was not a leader of understanding what is soul.
Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... (BG 2.13), dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."
Prabhupāda: Does it mean they like that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know, he cannot understand even that there is life after death. He has to accept another body. As we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not?
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animals. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category because when he'll get..., he'll get another body in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness? If you make progress. Yes. This is progressive. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).
Prabhupāda: Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Nobody knows. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, from one body to another, we are doing that, every moment, but these rascals, they do not know. I was a child, I was a boy. Where is that body? It is gone. It is a fact. I am in a different body. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Still, they won't believe that there is life after death. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ we are experiencing in this life. But they won't believe that after this deha, there is another deha. That they won't believe, such dull-headed. (Hindi) Are they dull-headed or (are) they intelligent scholar and scientist? What is your opinion? What is your opinion? You are practical man. (break) That is later on, so 'ham. First of all, understand what you are aham, then so 'ham. You do not know what is aham. So these rascals, they do not know aham, and they're speaking, so 'ham. (break) When you understand yourself, then you understand God also. Then you'll understand that God and yourself are of the same ingredient, so 'ham. Just like if I say, so 'ham. "I am just like Indira Gandhi." Indira Gandhi is the big personality. So, "I am as good as Indira Gandhi." So this is applicable in this sense, that Indira Gandhi is Indian. I am also Indian. Indira Gandhi is a human being. I am also a human being. In this way, go on, analytical study.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you are eternal. Because you were a child and now you are grown up, but you know that you were a child. Therefore you are eternal. You were a child, but you have no that child's body. Now you have got a different body. So although you have got different body, you know that you had a body like a child. Therefore body has changed. You have not changed. That is eternity.
Girirāja: And nobody wants to die.
Prabhupāda: Nobody wants to die.
Girirāja: If the soul is not eternal, where has that desire...
Prabhupāda: No. This is eternity. This is practical eternity. You have changed so many times your body, but you are the same person. Therefore you are eternal, in spite of changing body. This is simple argument.
Prajāpati: It is a tiny structure of organic matter that can constantly reproduce...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. When reproduce, the last body is gone.
Prajāpati: They say that the chromosomes that are transferred from father to son...
Prabhupāda: Still, the father's body is not the son's body. It is different body.
Prajāpati: It has come from father's body.
Prabhupāda: That all right, but the father's body is different. The father's pains and pleasure and the son's pains and pleasure are not the same. It may be that the father has given the ingredient of the body, but that does not mean the father's body and the son's body the same. Neither the mind is same, neither intelligence is same. It is all different. Otherwise why a son becomes disobedient to the father, "I don't agree with you"? That means, "Your intelligence, your mind, is different from my mind. I cannot agree with you." Therefore everything is different.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Some scientists, they want to make all the different body parts. They want to give artificial arm, then artificial feet, and they're, they're spending all kinds of money and time making these complicated machinery to do the same thing that the body is doing. And the ultimate goal, these scientists were stating, their ultimate goal was to make a complete human body so that the person never has to die, but he can always change his body just before it breaks.
Prabhupāda: But the maker of that machine will die.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He cannot save himself. He can make a machine which will not die, but he will die. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti yac cāpy utkrāmatīśvaraḥ...
Prabhupāda: So... So they... Śarīram, śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. They get different bodies. But they're individuals. They're individuals.
Dr. Patel: They are individuals till there is a salvation. And after, they are...
Prabhupāda: No, salvation means when they have ceased to accept the material body. That is salvation. Śarīraṁ yad avāpnoti. So avāpnoti means it was not, in the spiritual body there was no such thing, but they accept this material body.
Dr. Patel: This morning I read a very good thing from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, from Eleventh... (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not Darwin's theory. Darwin's theory is no explanation that whose evolution? Evolution is of the soul. The soul is changing in different bodies, one body better than the other. That kind of evolution.
Acyutānanda: Darwin has no individual evolution, but the evolution of a species, like, they say, there were horses. And then when they had eaten up all the food on the ground, so they started to get the food on the trees. So their necks became longer. And those with longer necks lived, and the others died. So then there were the giraffes. So they moved like that. "Survival of the fittest." That's his theory. Then the more intelligent animals will live more than the less intelligent. So they will die out and then they will be up to the human. But that doesn't explain why there are still lower species of life, that why are there still animals?
Prabhupāda: We are speaking from the Bhagavad-gītā as it is. What Śaṅkarācārya says, what Rāmānujācārya says, that we shall consider there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Bhagavān says in the Bhagavad-gītā that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So dehinaḥ means the possessor of the body, the owner of the body. That is the soul. So that you cannot deny, either you follow Śaṅkarācārya or Rāmānujācārya. There is soul within the body. This is Bhagavad-gītā says. Dehino 'smin, asmin dehe. Just like I was a child, I remember; you remember also. So that body is now gone. But I have got a different body, you have got a different body. But I am existing. So I am dehinaḥ, dehī, and my body is deha. So deha-dehī, there must be distinction. The body is not the owner. I am the owner. Just like I am sitting within this room, I am not this room; similarly, I am sitting within this body, you are sitting within your body. So you are not body. This is call illusion.
Prabhupāda: Piling of bricks and stones? Heaps of stones and bricks? That is emblem of civilization? They have seen. In Rome they have seen. They also piled like that. Now they have gone. Where they have gone? Why they left? Why they were obliged to leave? That nobody is questioning. And if he has got a different body, if he is living in that house as cats and dogs and rats and ants, then what benefit he has derived? There is possibility. If you have got an attraction for the body, for your house, but you are not going to get a human body, then you'll have to take your birth in that place, as tree, as plant, as live as rat or cat or ant. You have to live. Nature will give you advantage. But you must get the body according to your karma. That you cannot violate. Where is this science discussed? As soon as we shall speak gentleman like them, they will say, "I have got meeting."
Prabhupāda: No, why? The standard of living should be one: plain living and God consciousness. That is the disease. Everyone wants to enjoy this material world to his best capacity. Therefore we divide. They don't want to live in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Material consciousness. Enjoyment of the senses. And that is the cause of their suffering. Only on account of this sense gratification, they're creating different mentality, and, after death, they're getting different body. That they do not know. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgaḥ asya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. One is trying to associate with the goodness, brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa qualification, he'll be promoted, and one who is trying to imitate, "I shall be as powerful as the tiger," he'll be degraded. It is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: But that is your rascaldom. But this is the real logic.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They also say that it is not... It is the same body, more or less...
Prabhupāda: Same body...
Guru-gaurāṅga: But it is just developed, but it is not a different body.
Prabhupāda: No. Developed means different body. Development means different body. They cannot say it is not different body. Then if it is not different, then go to childhood again. That means they're not human being. Human being means with logic. According to their definition, man is rational animal. They're not even rational. Like cats and dogs. There is no rationality. Cats and dogs also they have got rationality. Logic plus authority, Kṛṣṇa says. How you can deny? That means they don't agree with Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You see? This logic, I am not giving this logic. This logic is given by Kṛṣṇa. So unless... The difficulty is that unless they accept the authority, it is very difficult. Logic is there. The authority is there.
Prabhupāda: Therefore... Yes. And not only kicked out. Who knows that he has been given a different body, maybe cats and dogs? So what is the value of this creation? Suppose I create this building, and on account of mentality, nature gives me next body a dog, and... Then what is my profit?
Yogeśvara: Yeah, there was that man who came to see you a couple of days ago. His argument was that we can't really say for sure because it's not perceivable that we will take a dog's body. But at least this is something we can understand. Here's something, a nice accomplishment.
Prabhupāda: But you understand, but you can understand also that you'll be kicked out. Don't you understand this?
Yogeśvara: She says it is only the body that is different.
Prabhupāda: Only body difference? The man who is there has got body different. The, the Africans, they have got different body. And the Europeans have different body. There are so many men. The aborigines have got different body. So there so many men, human also.
Yogeśvara: So then that is not the real difference?
Prabhupāda: So what is the real difference, that I want to explain.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: So what is her reply?
Prabhupāda: So what is her reply?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Prabhupāda: Suppose a child has a different body...
Lady (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: This young lady suggests that the animals do have a soul, and that they also pass from body to body, and perhaps ultimately can come to the human form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the explanation. You are right.
Guest (2): (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says the evolution was already before, because in the vegetables is already this process of evolution of the soul.
Prabhupāda: You have got now a different body, but you had a body like a child, so you cannot understand this? Why is that? Even a child can understand. You were also sometimes a body like this young girl. You do not believe that?
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: She says she can recollect.
Prabhupāda: No, but who recollects? The soul. The body is changed. The body is changed, but the soul is the same and therefore she can recollect.
Yogeśvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: She says there is an example of the worm that turns into a butterfly. It changes body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, she is right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is transmigration? Transmigration means the first body you lose; you enter a second body, a third body, fourth. So your childhood body is not existing. Therefore you are in different body.
Mādhavānanda: So that way anyone can understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of understanding. And Kṛṣṇa says, the authority, that "This is the way." It is not that I have manufactured some philosophy. No. The most powerful authority, He says. So where is the position to deny it? Who can deny it, Kṛṣṇa's statement? If somebody denies, then he is a rascal. That's all. Therefore we say that we have no difficulty to find out a rascal. As soon as one denies this, Kṛṣṇa's statement, he is a rascal. That's it. Anyone who does not accept the transmigration of the soul, he is a rascal, that's all, immediately. So easily understood, and still they will not understand. What is the possible objection?
Prabhupāda: When we dream, my body is left on the bed and I go somewhere. That we experience, that I am separate from this body. At that time I forget my, this body is lying down on the bed. I am acting in a different atmosphere. So and again, in daytime, I forget that at night I was in a different body, and I went to such and such place or on the sky I was flying. I forget. At night I forget this body and at daytime I forget that body. But I am existing. Therefore I am not this body. I am existing in this body and that body, but that body I have forgotten, and this body I forget. So this is a structure on my mind only. Actually I am different from the mind. And that is self-realization. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). Find out this verse. Manasas tu parā buddhir buddhes tu yaḥ saḥ. That's it. It is in the Third Chapter, I think.
Professor Durckheim: But without this body, you wouldn't become conscious of what is beyond body.
Prabhupāda: I am conscious always. Just like in sleep, I am getting different body, but still I am conscious. And daytime, that sleeping body is gone; still, I am conscious. That consciousness is impure on account of our contact with this temporary body. So when you come to the pure consciousness, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Professor Durckheim: But as an experience, the pure consciousness as an experience, has to have a background which is not pure consciousness. Otherwise it could become...
Mādhavānanda: ...different living entities in different material bodies suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long you have a material body, you must suffer. Just like in prisonhouse. When the criminals are put there, they are punished different way according to the criminal offense, similarly, you are, we are all criminals, and for different types of suffering we have got different types of body. Different types of body means different types of suffering. Just like this tree is punished, "Stand here for three hundred years." This is punishment. Just like we do, "Stand up on the bench!" Children. So any kind of material body, even Lord Brahmā, that is suffering, different types of suffering. That's all. And if you want to be free from the suffering, then get out of this material body. This is... Kṛṣṇa says that this is a place for suffering. Where does He say?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to.... By nature's law. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). Because mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, (indistinct). There are three qualities—sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa and mixed up. At first mixing it becomes nine and again mixing up it becomes 81. Each quality there are thousands and thousands of varieties and that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of life. So, it is by the God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and award the quality. It is not man-made law. That there may some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, whether small pox or whatever or (indistinct), you must develop. Therefore desireless. Desireless means material desires. Material desires begins with this designation. Just like the child, he has got a childish body and he plays like a child. The same child when he'll get a youthful body (indistinct). The soul is the same but on account of the type of the body, he is acting. This is material. Small child in the childhood talks like nonsense, people enjoy it. But the same child when he is grown up, if he talks like a nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed, the circumstances have changed. This is (indistinct) that we have changed this body and on account of the bodily situation we are acting different. That they do not understand. There is not school or college, they do not know about the soul and soul changing different positions, different bodies. In this way he remains materially entangled and the real relief is to get out of this bodily consciousness and advance in spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Nature. Nature is giving us different body. I am the spirit soul. Because I have accepted natural, the material nature's protection, I am getting different types of body. This life I have got this body, next life I may get another body. That is explained. Tathā dehāntara prāpti. We have to accept another body. Now you are scientist, next life you may be different. You may have a different body. Where is that science? Here is the information. But where is the science cultivated in the universities, education. There is no science, but this is a fact.
Guest (2): Well, it's just on five. Do you want to sneak in one?
Madhudviṣa: These are preparations which is prepared from Australian milk.
Prabhupāda: Let him take. Yes.
Prabhupāda: And devotee is enjoying, "Now Kṛṣṇa is coming to kill me." So any way you can deal with Kṛṣṇa and enjoy transcendental pleasure, either as enemy or as friend or as son or as lover, as master, as a servant—any way. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to deal with you any way, in twelve rasas, akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Raso vai saḥ, in the Vedas, He is the reservoir of all pleasure, transcendental. (Sanskrit) When we exchange rasa, transcendental mellow, (Sanskrit), then we get transcendental bliss. As the materialist has centered around the sex, this way or that way, similarly the transcendentalists, they are..., their center is Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference. So if you want to enjoy life making Kṛṣṇa as the center, that is eternal happiness. And this life means it is not eternal. Now you enjoy sex as human being, next as dog, next as monkey, next as flies, next as this, next as that. The center is sex, but you have to change according to your mental condition at the time of death in different body. That is not eternal. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). You accept one type of body, enjoy sex according to that body, then you can accept another body. Sex life is there. As human being, sex life; and as a dog, there is sex life; as a fly, sex life. Fly also enjoys sex life. You have seen?
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Professor: If one is following different stage, status of knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Different stage of knowledge means different types of body. Just like a child. A child is talking in some way. The same child, when he will get a different body, youthful body, he'll talk differently. What do you think?
Guest (1) (German Man): I would like to ask you a question. Once Leibnitz, who is one of the fathers of the Western tradition, formulated the question which was the beginning of metaphysics in a way, Western metaphysics. The question is "Why there is anything?" What is your stand about this classic point?
Prabhupāda: Why?
Guest (1): Why there is anything?
Prabhupāda: There are life manifestation, according to Vedic literature, that some of the life, they are coming from eggs, some of the life, they are coming from perspiration, some of the lives come from a seed, and some of the life comes from embryo. This is all stated there. Sveda-ja, udbi-ja, aṇḍa-ja, jarayu-ja. They already there. Jarayu means embryo, and sveda means perspiration. Life is everywhere. When they take little advantage, they come out, manifest. You will find even on the pavement, footpath, as soon as there is crack, some grass is coming out. So life is everywhere, it is struggling, and as soon as there is favorable circumstances, they come in a form. That's it. Life is not created, na jāyate. Read Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate: "Life is never created." It is existing eternally. Therefore it is said, na jāyate. So unfortunate rascals, they do not take advantage of Bhagavad-gītā and making research. So we want to stop this rascaldom. They are trying to create life, and it is stated in the Bhagavad..., na jāyate: "It is never created." It is already there. Simply it is coming out, being manifest by different bodies, 8,400,000 forms. That I was explaining last night. According to his desire. The life is already there, and according to his desire, he is coming out in different forms. That is going on. This is a false theory, that chemical can create life. It is nonsense. Life is never created, life is already there. God is already there, and the part and particles, molecules, life, was already there. Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit.
Prabhupāda: Living are already there, but his desires are manifest or nonmanifest.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the living entities are there, but they stop manifesting the different bodies.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, that you cannot see him without body. That is your defect. There are so many living entities in the air. You cannot see them. That is your defect. Therefore, Vedānta-śāstra-cakśuṣā: "You should see through the śāstra, not with your so-called eyes."
Rūpānuga: Śarīram puruṣo veda.(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is through śāstra, authority, not by our senses. That is not knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So that explains the... Sometimes some scientists ask that "You are very sure, so sure about the 8,400,000 species."
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Yes, nitya, nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, "He is my child, that child." So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Satsvarūpa: "For the soul there is never birth nor death, nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."
Prabhupāda: "So you can go to the higher planetary system. Prepare yourself in that way. You can go to the pitṛloka. You can remain within this world. And you can come to Me also." So if I have to prepare myself for the next life, why not go back to home, back to Godhead? Why unnecessarily go to the other planets or to the dogs and cats? Prepare in such a way that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). No more material body. You go back to home, back... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the best. After all, you have to prepare yourself for the next body. So why not prepare yourself for the next body as good as Kṛṣṇa's? Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). It is very intelligent movement. Any intelligent man should take it very seriously. If I have to prepare for my next life, why not prepare next life—just we are talking with you, you can go and talk with Kṛṣṇa. You can dance with Kṛṣṇa. You can eat with Kṛṣṇa. You can play with Kṛṣṇa. If there is such possibility, why should we waste our time in different way? That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. After all, we are going to die. And tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You have to accept another body, just you have already accepted. Kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. We have accepted a different body. I was a child. Now I have got different body. So we are accepting different body. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Similarly, you accept another body after death. Now what that body should be, everything is there.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you know yourself? Why you are in darkness? Kṛṣṇa says everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam (BG 2.13). In this body there is the occupier of the body. So if you think yourself that you are this body, that is your wrong. You try to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, ahaṁ brahmāsmi." That's the fact. So this human life is meant for that purpose. So why should you not do it? Why should you keep yourself in darkness? That is very risky. If I keep myself in the darkness like cats and dogs, that "I am this body," then my life is very risky. By nature's way we are given this opportunity, human form of life. If we do not understand our position, if we remain in the same category, bodily concept of life, then we are missing the chance. After all, you have to change this body. It is not permanent settlement that you shall remain Indian, you shall remain American. No. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to change. Now what kind of body you are going to get, that you have to understand. That is responsibility. So this child, this boy, if he remains in darkness that he will continue this childhood body, and father, mother will take care of him—"I don't require to take any education"—then future life, when he will be young man, he will be not nicely posted for want of education. Then how miserable it will be. Similarly, if we don't take care of this education that "I am not this body, my future body will be different, and if I do not know what kind of different body I'll have to accept..." Suppose we accept some lower grade of body. Then what is my future?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like if you contaminate some disease, then you must develop that disease. Similarly, if your mind is contaminated with some material designation, then you have to accept similar body, by nature's way. Kāranaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). Because the mind associated with a particular type of the modes of material nature, he got this body. There are three qualities: sattva-guṇa, raja-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Now you mix up. By first mixing it becomes nine, and again mixing up, it becomes eighty-one. And each quality, there are thousands and thousands of variety. And that means by mixing up these qualities there are 8,400,000 species of forms of life. So it is very... God's law, nature's law, they take account of the particular color and awards the body accordingly. It is not man-made law, that there may be some mistake. There is no mistake. If you have contaminated this disease, either smallpox or cholera or this or that, you must develop that disease. Therefore we should be desireless. Desireless means material desire. That material desire begins with the designation. That... The child, he has got a childish body, and he plays like a child. The same child, when he will get a youthful body, he will do like that. The soul is the same. But on account of different type of body he is acting differently. That is practical. A small child, in the childhood he will talk like nonsense. People will enjoy it. But the same child, when he is grown up and he talks like nonsense, people will call him nonsense, rascal. Why? The body has changed. The circumstance has changed. This is the real education, that we are changing body, and according to our bodily situation we are acting differently. That they do not understand. There is no school, college or education about the soul and the soul's changing different position of different body, and in this way he remains materially entangled. And the real relief is to get him out of this bodily concept of life and advance in spiritual concept of...
Prabhupāda: It is not very highly intellectual. One has to understand first of all that he is not this body. That anyone can understand, that "I am changing my body, but I am there. Therefore I am not this body." Just like a child's coat, when he is young man, that coat does not fit him. So that young man means he has got another body. But the young man knows, he remembers, that he was a child. He was on the lap of his parents or his relatives. So that body is no longer existing. I have got a different body, but I who had the childhood body, I am existing. Is it very difficult to understand, any one of you? The body has changed. That's a fact. But I am the same. (break) What is that?
Devotee: The demands of the body makes it...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, it is not the same body. Just like in your childhood, when you were a boy, you had no sex impulse. Now you have got sex impulse. The body of a child, the body of a boy, they cannot understand sex life because the body is different. And now, because you have got different body, you can feel what is sex life. So it is imperceptibly changing. Therefore we think that it is growing. But it is changing. It is changing swiftly. Just like in the cinema spool. The picture is changing, but because it is changing so swiftly, you are seeing that one man is moving. That is the fact. There are hundreds and thousands of pictures passed on. When you see that "This man is taking the stick and bringing this way," this means there are many pictures. So similarly, it is like a spool. Your body is changing every moment. That is medical science.
Prabhupāda: The simple truth. But people have no education. That is the defect of the modern civilization. This is the fact, that you are accepting every moment a different body. So after death, you will have to accept another body. Now, we should know, "What kind of body I am going to accept next?" That is intelligence. That is civilization.
Justin Murphy: Do you mean that the, that that, then, will allow me, if I come to that realization, that that will allow me to then continue to improve my mind, continue to study, to think, to gain knowledge...
Prabhupāda: As far... Yes.
Justin Murphy: ...beyond say the normal sixty-five or seventy years that I might live in what I imagine to be this body?
Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering.
Prabhupāda: From bacteria? How rascals they are.
Bali-mardana: Prabhupāda, in the Bhāgavatam it also states that there are nine divisions of creation, and that in the first creation there's the plants and trees.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but these different bodies, and the soul is transmigrating, that they do not know. The soul is getting a different type of body according to his desires, not the body is developing. This I have explained many times, that you get the apartment according to the rent you are able to pay, not that a small apartment is becoming a skyscraper building. That is their theory.
Bali-mardana: But is there a great time period between the different divisions of the creation?
Prabhupāda: "A very learned brāhmaṇa and a dog and an elephant, a cow, a caṇḍāla—all of them, to a paṇḍita, really learned person, sama-darśinaḥ." You see? So now how a learned scholar brāhmaṇa and a dog can be seen on equal level? But it can be seen. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). It is on the spiritual platform, that every one of us is spirit soul. We are, by different karma, we are covered with different material dress. A dog is also a soul, and a learned brāhmaṇa is also a soul. But he is covered with different body, and he is covered with different body. So one who does not see the body, he can see on the same level. But one who sees the body, he cannot see. This is the basic principle of equality. I am seeing you are Sikh, you are seeing I am Hindu, he is seeing he is Christian, he is Mohammedan, and so on, so on. And nobody is seeing that nobody is brāhmaṇa. Nobody is seeing nobody is Hindu, nobody is Christian—he is pure soul. So that vision, unless one attains, how there can be equality? There is no possibility.
Bali-mardana: Even every child knows that "When I grow up I will have a different body,"...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali-mardana: ...but they do not know.
Prabhupāda: These people, they do not understand. What kind of civilized men they are? Less than a child, and they are proud of their science. (break)
Devotee: They're trying to catch some fish.
Paramahaṁsa: What are they doing?
Devotee: They're fishing.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Devotee: Crabs. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...fisherman. They keep this side open and this side covered. Front side covered, back side open.
Prabhupāda: That means one has to come to the platform of brāhmaṇa. Then he can enter into devotional service. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54). In that brāhminical state he sees every living entity as part and parcel of God. That is samaḥ, equality. He does not see like this, that the human being has soul and the cow has not soul. He does not see like that. He sees the cow has soul, the ant has soul, the elephant has soul, the tree has soul, the human being has soul. That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. By ignorance he thinks that "The tree has no soul; the cow has no soul; the animal has no soul; simply we have got soul." That is ignorance, base quality. But when you come to the pureness of goodness, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, this qualification will arise. So a devotee is not willing to kill even an ant because he knows that "He is also soul, part and parcel. By his karma, he has become ant, I have become a human being. So I am the same soul; he is the same soul. He is different body. He is suffering in that way. I have got different body. I am also suffering, but I am thinking I am enjoying." That is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. What is the meaning, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu?
Prabhupāda: As soon as you want another machine, immediately it is... Svābhāvikī bala-kriyā ca parāsya śaktir vividhaiva. His potencies, his merit, is acting. Not his merit, means the nature's merit, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27), it is working so swiftly. You cannot see. The same example as I give always, that the movies spool, each is a different picture, but when it is put into the projector, you cannot understand. But actually on the background there are different pictures. So if ordinary cinematograph, cinema picture, we can make like that, how much nicely and subtle machine is there, it is being done—that you do not know. But each body, each second, you are being supplied a different body.
Brahmānanda: Like each of the different frames.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Each second the body is different. But what this rascal will do? How they will know? They have no brain. All dull-headed materialistic, mūḍha. They cannot understand this. But this is the process going on. I want, for certain thing, I want a different body. Immediately nature supplies.
Yadubara: Even within this body?
Prabhupāda: Why within? Another body you cannot see. Not within—without. Another body supplied.
Ambarīṣa: Sometimes when people are put into a dangerous situation, they acquire extraordinary strength, just like that, that they never had before.
Prabhupāda: They are missing the aim of life. That is the... The aim of life is, an..., not according to Vedic, but anyone, the aim of life is how to realize God. That is aim. In the animal life or in other lives less important than the human being there is no question of God realization. In the human life, the civilized human life, there is religion. It doesn't matter whether one is Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist. These are the principle religions of the world. So any civilized man must be inquisitive to know what is the original source of everything. That philosophy is there. It is called Brahma-sūtra or Vedānta-sūtra. Perhaps you have heard the name, Vedānta philosophy. Veda means knowledge, and anta means end. In the materialistic way of knowledge they did not find any end, and they accept it "That this is progress." But one must come to the end of the knowledge, what is the ultimate knowledge. So generally they are missing what is the ultimate knowledge. We are searching after knowledge in so many ways but what is the ultimate knowledge? The ultimate knowledge, Vedānta, means end of knowledge. End of knowledge means to understand the original source of everything. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. The human inquisitiveness should be up to that point, what is the origin of everything. Because human life is not a spot. That... The western people are lacking that understanding. We are thinking that this duration of life, say, for fifty to a hundred years, that is all. No. That is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, that this body is not everything. We have to accept another body after death. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As we are accepting different bodies in our this span of life from childhood to boyhood, from boyhood to youthhood, from youthhood to old age... So this is the example.
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Nitāi: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature.
Bernard Manischewitz: No, my body is different from a child's body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So different body means you are changing body every moment, imperceptibly. That is the medical science.
Bernard Manischewitz: Can it sometimes be perceptibly? Can a person...?
Prabhupāda: Perceptibly we can understand that the body is being changed so long you are within this body. Because if the person, the soul, is not in the body, the body does not change. Body changes so long the soul is there. And as soon as the soul goes out of the body, there is no more change. Is it not perceptible?
Bernard Manischewitz: If the soul goes out of the body...
Prabhupāda: There is no more change. It remains the same. Same status. Why? That means so long the soul is there, changes take place.
Prabhupāda: That we also say, but that body not... That "dormant" means dormant in the soul, not in the body. That is the knowledge. Dormant it is, but dormant in the soul, not in the body.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They have to admit that it's a different body because if the body is simply made of food and they are eating so much and evacuating so much, then it has to be a different body.
Prabhupāda: No, it is different body, undoubtedly. If they foolishly argue, that is different thing. Therefore rascal. Their argument has no value. How you can be the same body? So many changes. The body is changed. (to Indian man:) What is that? It was not garam?
Indian man (1): No, garam not.
Prabhupāda: No, he starts... According to the body he will work. If he enters into the dog's body, he will work as a dog. If he enters in the body of a tree, he will work as the tree: stand up naked without any shame; you cannot protest, your branches will be cut off. So these things are there. What do they know about this science? Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to take a different body. He does not say what kind of body. And you can see by practical experience. There are 8,400,000 different forms of body. You have to enter one of them. That's all. So what you can do? The nature will force you, "Enter this body." It may be a better body or it may be an abominable body, but you have to enter another body. Where is that education that "I'll have to enter another body after death, and let me prepare what kind of body I shall have"? Where is that education? They are blind.
Prabhupāda: So I am not responsible.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes. Therefore they say, "I am not this body."
Prabhupāda: Then why different bodies? If you are not responsible, then why do you get different bodies?
Yaśomatīnandana: "That is because I did not know in the past that I was, I am a spirit soul. But now I know that I am spirit soul."
Prabhupāda: But you did not know in the past. So you were a fool in the past. You are fool now also. Where is your advancement?
Yaśomatīnandana: "Now I know that I am a soul. I am not this..."
Prabhupāda: Simply by knowing soul is not good. Why you have got this body? Why everyone wants a king's body or a very nice body? Why he gets a dog's body? What is the reason? Everyone wants: "I may have a very good body so that I can enjoy." But why he is baffled? He gets a cat's body, dog's body, insect body, tree's body. He has also body, but he is standing there for hundreds of years. He cannot move an inch. So why you have got this facility of this body that you can move, you can cut, but he cannot protest? He is also body. And what is he? Who?
Prabhupāda: Then you must first of all rectify your karma. Then talk. Past karma, you have got this body. Therefore you must rectify your karma. Karmano 'pi bodhavyam akarmana. You must know what is karma, what is akarma, what is vikarma. That is knowledge. If you remain blind about your karma and by nature's way you get different body, then what is your knowledge? Just like if you go to a doctor, he says that "Due to this infection, you have got this disease," so you know it so that in future you will be very careful. That is knowledge." I do not know why I have got this disease, and still, I do not know what further it is going on"—that is ignorance. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. To remain in ignorance, that is the greatest sin. Tamasi ma: "Don't remain in darkness." That is Vedic injunction, "Enlighten yourself." Jyotir gama: "Go to the light." But where is your light, you do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantor dehopapatti (SB 3.31.1). Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yogīnām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatāntarātmanā (BG 6.47).
Devotee (3): So the jīva is still higher than the intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes.
Dr. Patel: Prakṛtir me aṣṭadhā. It is God's prakṛti.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. That he does not know. Ahāṅkara-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netreṇa. Karmaṇā daiva netreṇa jantu deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: By manipulating the energy.
Harikeśa: So the most subtle form...
Prabhupāda: He is also... The living entity is creating different body for different enjoyment.
Haṁsadūta: The living entity?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: But he can't do it without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is, he is subordinate.
Haṁsadūta: Just like our hair grows, but we don't know how it's happening.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you want lord it over, "Alright you become Brahma." He gives so much facility.
Harikeśa: And then this Brahmā creates so many different desires, and then he goes through all the different bodies.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Akṣayānanda: Everyone becomes Brahmā first?
Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. Or if you want to be a cat you can become.
Harikeśa: How can they say this isn't science? This is so incredible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They follow, some gentleman. And because at that time it is good living, somebody takes charge, "Alright let me take this pup." And the children also like, so he gets some shelter. So similarly, according to different body the activities begins. Therefore body is the field of activities. A snake, because he has got the field of activity of a snake's body, from the very beginning he is very, very envious. The same, trying to bite others. In this way our activities begin according to the body. And this change of bodies take place in the lower animal life automatically, by nature's law. Prakṛte kriyamānāni guṇai karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ. But when comes to the form of a human being, on account of developed consciousness, he has got responsibility. He has to make his choice. He is suffering in this material world changing different types of bodies, one after another, and the propensity to lord it over the material world is going on. Now he has to change the consciousness, whether he wants to continue this propensity for lording over the material world, or he wants to surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; that is their folly. If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything is finished, everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa, not any so-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. What do they say about this statement of Kṛṣṇa, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre, that when your body is finished you are not finished?
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut a living entity, he can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hm? Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire: "Let the rooms be like this." Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother, mix. It creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now, according to the desire of the living being, he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing, earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body, a different body for the man, a different body for the animal.... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: The soul is already there. Soul is already.... Just like this room was already there. Now I have entered. And again I give up this room; I go to another room. Like that. Not that this room becomes another room, room. If I have to go to another room, I have to give up this room. I have to go another room. So I am the same. I am changing different rooms, different body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Find out this verse.
- dehino 'smin yathā dehe
- kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
- tathā dehāntara-prāptir
- dhīras tatra na muhyati
- (BG 2.13)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from boyhood to youthhood to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Purport.
Prabhupāda: That we say also. There is no difficulty. Because at the time of death, whatever you are thinking, you'll get the next body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Rādhāvallabha: They say, though, that this is how the different bodies come into being.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we say also.
Candanācārya: But can any body be generated from the imagination, any kind of...
Prabhupāda: It is not this imagination. I wanted that facility. So my subtle mind is wanting that. So nature is supplying: "All right, you get it."
Hari-śauri: We don't create the bodies. We desire them, and the material nature has created already.
Prabhupāda: This is visible. Your child, a baby, is on the lap, and after one year, he has got a different body. The old, the old body, on the lap, is finished. Now he is walking. It is another body. Why it is not visible?
Rāmeśvara: They say all matter goes through the stage of development and destruction.
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all, this is to be answered, that this child, when he was born he was very small, lying on the lap of the mother. Now he's jumping. Now that body which was lying on the lap of the mother is no more existing. He has got another body which is jumping. But the mother knows that "It is my same child." Therefore the same soul is there; the body has changed.
Rāmeśvara: But they argue that there is no soul; it is simply the changing of matter.
Prabhupāda: The changing.... When the child is born dead, why he does not grow? (laughter) Therefore they are rascals.
Prabhupāda: No, he forgets that he wanted it. So God reminds him that "You wanted this body; you have got this body." Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). So God is very kind in all circumstances. Now we proposing to enjoy this material world under different situations, and God is helping us. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). You want to wander within this material world. That is your proposal. So, in order to enjoy this material world, you require different types of body. Just like they are trying to go to the moon planet. It requires a different body. So yānti deva-vratā devān: (BG 9.25) this life, you aspire of going to the moon planet; next life, automatically you will go there. Why you are trying unnecessarily to go to the moon planet by sputnik? You'll go there. You just always think of the moon and you'll go to the moon. It is simple process. And by this way, you cannot go.
Prabhupāda: You are.... When the child's body, that body, is no more existing, you are in a different body.
Jay Warner: The difficulty for me reaches the moment, retroactively, before the moment of birth, or past the moment of death. How can one come to have faith that there is life after one leaves his body?
Prabhupāda: This is the proof. A child may not understand that there is, after his childhood body, there is another body, boyhood body or youthful body. He may not understand. But that is the fact. If the child says, "There is no more body. This is the final body," that is not the fact. He is going to get another body which is boy's body, young man's body, old man's body. Similarly, you may believe or not believe, you are going to get another body. The proof is that you have no more the child's body; you have got a different body. The common sense reasoning.
Prabhupāda: Let them do. Scientifically, there is life after death. That we repeatedly say, that my child's body is dead, it's gone, vanished. I have got a different body. So after death there is life. This is practical. So this Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So similarly, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This is authoritative statement of God, and practically we see that we get one body after another, but I continue. So where is the objection? So there is life after death. So-called death means annihilation of the body. So if we can stick to that life, that there is no more death, then that is to be sought after. That is intelligence. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if you simply understand Kṛṣṇa and you become fit to go back to Him, then no more death.
Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul.
Hari-śauri: "This body is called kṣetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities, and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jñānam. That is the opinion of Kṛṣṇa. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakṛti, nature, and puruṣa, the enjoyer of the nature, and īśvara, the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul. One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhoktā bhogyaṁ preritāraṁ ca matvā/ sarvaṁ proktaṁ tri-vidhaṁ brahmam etat. There are three Brahman conceptions: prakṛti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jīva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller. In this chapter it will be also explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible. One is superior and the other is subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge. There are different types of bodies, and there are different owners of the bodies. Because each individual soul has his individual capacity of lording it over material nature, there are different bodies.
Prabhupāda: We cannot get many followers. Because everyone is under this impression, "I am this body." And to get him released from this conception is not so easy job. So we cannot expect many thousands and millions. Only selected fortunate people will understand it. But everyone can understand it. It is very simple thing. But the modern education has made them so dull brain, they cannot understand, neither do they try to understand. That is the difficulty. Matter, subject matter, is very simple thing. I am changing bodies, but in spite of my change of body, I am the spirit soul existing. This is the first understanding. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), that I am not dead on account of my body being finished. My childhood body is finished, my boyhood body is finished, my youth-hood body is finished, but I am existing. I can remember that I was in such body, I was in such body, in such circumstances. When I was a child I was talking like this, I was jumping like this. But because that body is finished, I cannot do that. Now I have got a different body, I cannot jump like a child. This simple truth. But I know that I was jumping. That is not dream, that's a fact. But we are educated in such a foolish way that we cannot understand this simple truth. That has to be amended. Otherwise, there is no question of enlightenment in the human society.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. This is printed by the Indian community, one man, Anand Singh, and he included part of an article from the Back to Godhead magazine. There's one article in here also, the front page is a whole.... There's a racket they had going, these people, this man. He went to India and he found one widow, and he said, "I am a personal friend of the Prime Minister of Canada. Give me money, I'll take you to Canada. You can come. I'll make sure you get immigration status." So she came with him to Canada, and then he started blackmailing her, "Give me this much money every day, otherwise I'll reveal that you're an illegal immigrant, and you'll be in trouble with the government." And eventually it became such a burden that he simply killed her, cut her into three pieces and killed her. Then they found parts of different bodies like this, and they finally found the man.
Prabhupāda: The woman was killed?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to..."
Prabhupāda: Just like to eat anything and everything. It is different association. You go to the restaurant, you eat the intestine of pig. I've seen it. Is that anything eatable? But you have learned it on account of association. Karaṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgos 'sya. And if he remains with the Kṛṣṇa conscious, he eats kachorīs, samosā, prepared by Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja. (laughter) It is due to association. By bad association he'll have to eat up to the stool. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One has to rise therefore above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desire since time immemorial, but he has to change that conception."
Prabhupāda: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact the flavor is there within the earth, you take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva-kāma dugha-mahī. Mahī means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Kṛṣṇa's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Kṛṣṇa's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Kṛṣṇa's manipulation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa (BG 9.10). Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, dahl, āṭṭā, ghee. But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Kṛṣṇa. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the āṭṭā with water then put ghee and then put rice.
Prabhupāda: You are very good, you are following your religious principle very strictly, adherently. That's all right. But what about your love of God? "Oh, that I do not know." So śāstra says, śrama eva hi... It is simply waste of time, and simply laboring. That's all. If you have not learned to love God, then what is the meaning of your religion? Then, when you're actually on the platform of love of God, you understand your relationship with God, that "I am part and parcel of God. Not only I am part and parcel of God, this dog is also part and parcel of.... Every living entity." Then you'll extend love for animal also. If you actually love God, then your love for insect also is there because you understand that "This insect, it has got a different body only, but he is also part and parcel, or my brother." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then you cannot maintain slaughterhouse. If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion.
Prabhupāda: That means you have to analyze different bodies. But that is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which apartment is better than the other apartment, there is description. Just like a dog's body is so made that two furlongs away some newcomer is coming, immediately he will bark, he can immediately understand, perceive. He can smell that "Somebody is coming who is not known to me." Is it not? So he has got that special quality. Even in animals we will find. A fish in the water, two miles away there is some enemy, they can understand by touch.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Science calls those chemical senses.
Prabhupāda: These are described in the Bhāgavata, the different perception of different senses, how one is prominent in one animal body. That is described.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested, than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says: 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life.
Prabhupāda: Every body... Just like a child is changing his body to boyhood, boy is changing his body to youthhood, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. The young man is becoming old man. Similarly, when the body is no more endurable, then you get another body. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). This body is being destroyed, we are not destroyed. We living entities, we are nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. We are eternal. The proof is given that the child is growing, getting the boy's body. That means the living entity is there, he has changed bodies. When a child is grown to become a boy, the father, mother do not think that "My child is no more existing." He knows "My child is existing, but in a different body." This is common sense. So we shall exist, we existed in the past, we are existing now and we shall exist in the future, but in a different body. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is the best qualification. If he becomes disinterested with these so-called modern civilized activities, that is the perfection of life. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (SB 11.2.42). Bhakti means the more you become God conscious, you become disinterested with these material activities. And that is needed, because material activities means you are wasting our time. What is the value of animal life? It is risky. If we become like animal, then we'll become animal next birth. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram (BG 8.6). At the time of death, the mind's position will give me another body. That is nature's law. That you do not know. There is no education how the body is being transferred, how the soul is transferred to different bodies. And there are 8,400,000 different forms of body, and at the time of death, according to our mentality, we have to accept by nature's law a type of body which may not be human body. That we do not know. There is no education. The people are kept in darkness about the laws of nature. That is a very risky civilization.
Prabhupāda: Ultimate is that you are spirit soul, you are being materially engrossed, you are creating different situations and you are being transferred to different bodies. That is different situations.
Interviewer: But for what purpose and to what end? What's the final end?
Prabhupāda: Yes, so final, that unless you are spiritually realized, you do not know what is the final end. The final end is that we are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in contact with this material atmosphere. So our final aim is to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless we know this and we practice how to return back again to Godhead, then we have to remain within this material world, transmigrating from one body to another. Therefore the human intelligence is meant for understanding the spiritual identity and the goal of life and act accordingly. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is an educational movement to enlighten the people from gross ignorance to the highest enlightenment of spiritual understanding.
Prabhupāda: ...the Vedic mantras. "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Asmin dehe, within this body there is the soul. So on account of presence of the soul we are transmigrating to different bodies. Just like from childhood to boyhood. The body of a boy is different from the body of a child, but the same soul who was within the body of a child has now come within the body of a boy. And the same soul again, he will go in the body of a young man. And the same soul again will go in the body of an old man. And the same soul, when the body of old man is finished, then he enters another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So the soul is transmigrating from one body to another. A part of it we can see in this life. I was in the child's body, I was in the boy's body, I was in the young man's body, now I am an old man's body.
Prabhupāda: Oh, give them this garland. (break) ...he begins with surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So anyone who voluntarily offers obeisances, immediately he becomes fifty percent advanced. Because.... Who is talking? This material world means nobody wants to surrender. Everyone wants to become master: "I am the monarch of all I survey." Everyone is planning how to become a master. Therefore the struggle for existence. Nobody wants to become a servant. You know very well in European history, Napoleon wanted to become the master of all Europe. Hitler wanted also. Similarly, there were so many leaders, sometimes Roman leaders, sometimes Greek leaders, sometimes French leaders, sometimes German leaders, English leader. The whole European history is full of fighting, war. The basic idea is that everyone wanted to become master. That is the material disease. We are now discussing Bali Mahārāja. He also wanted to become master of the whole universe. So that is the material disease. Actually, master is one, Kṛṣṇa. There cannot be two masters. There is only one master, that is Kṛṣṇa, or God. But in the material world, because we have forgotten the real master, every one of us is trying to become master. This is material disease. Not only in one life, but life after life. The cats and dogs, they also want to be master. The dog, if he finds another dog coming, he immediately begins barking very loudly, "Why you are coming here?" So this mastership competition is going on life after life, sometimes as human being, sometimes as animal, sometimes as fish, aquatic, sometimes as demigod, bird. This is the whole material situation. And the difficulty is that we cannot become master, but on account of our false ambition that "I shall become master," we are becoming servants of material nature. We are acting in a certain way to become master, creating a situation, mentality, and at the time of death, when this body finishes, the mind absorbed in that mastership idea takes me to another body according to my ambition, so I become again manifest in different body to exhibit my mastership.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not convenient, foolishness. A rabbit, when there is some big animals, he closes his eyes. He thinks, "There is no danger." That does not mean he's out of danger. He'll be eaten up. So simply by concocting that there is no life after death, you'll not be escaped. In Bhagavad-gītā informs, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. There is no need of studying any literature, Vedic literature. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ, Kṛṣṇa is giving evidence. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). This dehāntara-prāptiḥ, I was not this body in the beginning, I was a very jubilant child like this. Where is that body? That body is not existing. It is different body, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. So why they do not believe dehāntara-prāptiḥ? I am the same soul who possessed a child's body, young man's body, boy's body. Now I have got the old man's body. So dehāntara is there, and I am still. I remember, I was a child, I was lying down on the lap of my elder sister. I remember still. But where is that body? It is different body.
Prabhupāda: Either a child or elderly, you have touched fire, then you must be burned. This is nature's law. Very strict. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu (BG 13.22). Why you have got different bodies? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. As we have associated with the modes of material nature, we have got different types of bodies. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of forms? The forms are different, but within the form, the soul is one.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda, maybe we could show that movie now?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Which side you'll show? This side.
Dayānanda: I want to show it (indistinct), Prabhupāda, then everyone can sit here on the inside so you can see.
Prabhupāda: All right. That's nice. What is that? Again?
Prabhupāda: That is dog's obstinacy. The dog, however you ask the dog to stop barking, it will go on barking. Dog's obstinacy. Hm. What is that? I have taken.
Devotee (2): "But in the management... But the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, 'I am the Father.' The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation.
Prabhupāda: That the any person, any living entity, he is not this body. That is the answer. So then two things. Suppose you are, I am, that I am thinking of this body, and at the same time I am thinking that this finger, I say, "My finger." Nobody says, "I finger." "My finger." Even a child he will say. So "My finger, my head, my legs." So what is that "my"? That is the question. The answer is negatively that that "I" or "my" is not this body. That is different from the body. Now what is the nature of that "I"? That is explained one after another, one after another, one, one. Because he has no idea. Every one of us... I am speaking, you are speaking. Theoretically we take, accept it that I am not this body. But practically I say, "I am this body." That is wrong. That has to be explained. And that is being explained. The question is one and the answer is one. There cannot be many questions or many answers. Answer is one. That answer is, Kṛṣṇa begins, that "As the body is changing, within our experience..." dehino'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Very nice example. We are changing bodies. When you were born, there was no beard. Clean shaved or no hair. So that body has changed. It is not the same body. In which body you came out of the womb of your mother, that was a small body. That was a different body.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not... Then it is explained, how you are not this body. In the beginning He explains, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13). Just like you see the body has changed every daily, per minute, the body is changing, imperceptively. But try to understand that you were a child, now your body has changed in a different body. But you understand, you remember, that "I was a child." But the child body is no longer. So you remember or not remember, the body is changing. This is the answer. This is self-realization.
Indian man: I am the constant change, the process?
Prabhupāda: You are not changing.
Indian man: Body is changing.
Prabhupāda: Body is changing. This is to be understood.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Rape, the same thing. And the human life is (indistinct). This was going on. The water, the ducks, water on the (indistinct), the ducks are going on and little (indistinct) is going on. The same (indistinct) but in different way. The (indistinct) is the same, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). But according to the mentality, he is getting different body but the business is the same. Adānta-gobhir, unrestrained senses. Simply sense enjoyment. The duck is also doing this, the ant is doing this, the fly is doing this, the mosquito is doing this, the man is doing this, animal is doing this, sense enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, your son will be able to answer all questions. Like Devahūti, you can take instruction from your son. That is in the history. Son is instructing mother. Generally mother instructs the son, but there is that history son is instructing mother. Because here we make such relationship—mother, father, son, daughter, relative. Actually this is material nature made, in different bodies. Otherwise, real father is Kṛṣṇa. (devotees exclaim—lights go out?) This is the benefit of modern science, (laughter) (Prabhupāda laughs) that in the evening you require light—there is no light in the evening. When you require, there is no light. Better depend on the natural oil.
Prabhupāda: That is being done all over the world. If you simply understand this one line, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ... (BG 2.13). So today I am Indian, and after death I become something else. There are 8,400,000 different bodies. Today I may be very exalted minister, and tomorrow, if I become something else... I'll have to, because nature's law, you cannot check. Tathā dehānt... Just like here is child. You cannot check to become young man. That is not in your power. She must become or he must become. Similarly, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ, it is not in your hand or in my hand. It is in the hand of the prakṛti. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). So there are so many things that... The human society requires this knowledge and we are trying to give this knowledge alone with our humble attempt, and these foreigners are helping with their prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā, by their life, by their money, by their intelligence, by their words. (aside:) Give them pad. They cannot sit comfortably.
Prabhupāda: This is the shastric, Vedic culture, that we have to purify ourselves from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12), cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that "I am this"—"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am sannyāsī," "I am gṛhastha," "I am white," "I am black." These are the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ (SB 1.2.17). This chanting and hearing is puṇya-śravaṇa. If you do not know anything about, if you simply chant and hear, you become purified, puṇya, because on account of dirty things, impious life, you have become covered by different bodies. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Different bodies means the way of birth and death. That you have to stop. And that is stopped when you get Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, I think, in the Ninth Chapter... Find out this verse, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa, mām aprāpya (BG 9.3). You cannot get Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes... So happiness, unless Kṛṣṇa gives, there is no question of happiness. Our business should be that we may not be uncomfortably living which will disturb our progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness—that much. Other things? Depend on Kṛṣṇa. If He wants to make you Indra, you become Indra. There is no happiness even by becoming Indra. You... We read from books. Indra is how much disturbed, always fighting, devāsura. He has to fight. The same thing as here. Only difference is the standard of living in the heaven and the duration of life are greater. But if you have to struggle for existence, then what is the use of this duration of life, greater? Simply struggling, where is happiness? So in different planets, in different species of life... I see at night these small bugs. They have got the same happiness. The husband and wife or the male and female together, jumping and having sex, and everything in a different body. And same thing is going on in higher planetary system. There is no other business. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam: eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. But breath must be there. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). So one who is intelligent: "So here is unhappiness. Why I'll have to die?" And that can be solved only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other.
| Page Title: | Different bodies (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 27 of Sep, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=106, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 106 |