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Deprogramming

Srimad-Bhagavatam

SB Canto 10.1 to 10.13

SB 10.2.33, Purport:

Devotees generally do not fall down, but if circumstantially they do, the Lord, because of their strong attachment to Him, gives them protection in all circumstances. Thus even if devotees fall down, they are still strong enough to traverse the heads of their enemies. We have actually seen that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has many opponents, such as the "deprogrammers," who instituted a strong legal case against the devotees. We thought that this case would take a long time to settle, but because the devotees were protected by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we unexpectedly won the case in one day. Thus a case that was expected to continue for years was settled in a day because of the protection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has promised in Bhagavad-gītā (9.31), kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati: "O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes."

SB 10.8.15, Purport:

Also, kṛṣ means "attraction," and na means ānanda, or "bliss." Kṛṣṇa is known as Mukunda because He wants to give everyone spiritual, eternal, blissful life. Unfortunately, because of the living entity's little independence, the living entity wants to "deprogram" the program of Kṛṣṇa. This is the material disease. Nonetheless, because Kṛṣṇa wants to give transcendental bliss to the living entities, He appears in various forms. Therefore He is called Kṛṣṇa. Because Gargamuni was an astrologer, he knew what others did not know. Yet Kṛṣṇa has so many names that even Gargamuni did not know them all. It is to be concluded that Kṛṣṇa, according to His transcendental activities, has many names and many forms.

Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures

Lecture on SB 7.9.4 -- Mayapur, February 18, 1977:

So we should take lesson from Prahlāda Mahārāja that if a child becomes a devotee in the family, he is the best child, the best. He is giving the best service to the family. But the rascals, they are taking otherwise, that "My son has become devotee. Bring him back by deprogramming, by kidnapping." People are so rascal. You see? They do not take it a great benefit that "My fortunate son has become a devotee. My whole family will be delivered." But they have no knowledge. They have no brains. Therefore I say it is not brainwashing, it is braingiving. They have no brain. (laughter) So take it very seriously and do nicely.

Conversations and Morning Walks

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Ācchā.

Jayatīrtha: ...depending on how wealthy they are. He kidnaps them and tries to brainwash them that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not good.

Devotee: He calls it deprogramming. He says... He tries to deprogram the devotees that we have simply been hypnotized by chanting. So he has to snap us out of it by deprogramming. And he uses very severe techniques, very harsh.

Prabhupāda: And the parents are inducing him.

Jayatīrtha: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Brahmānanda: All over America.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1976, Los Angeles:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's the big propaganda now. The, there's one.... There's a number of men who kidnap, their professional business is to kidnap devotees and other people who belong to other groups like ours. And they're paid by the parents to kidnap the children back, and they call it deprogram the children, deprogramming.

Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda saw that article on that Ted Patrick.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I saw it in New York recently, our president, (sic:) Ādikeśa, he went up against Ted Patrick on television, big television show, and he completely defeated him. So Ted Patrick was saying that, you know, these people are all fanatics. So (sic:) Ādikeśa, at the end, he said, so, if we're fanatics, then the Pope is even more fanatical, so why don't you deprogram him? And everybody laughed at that Ted Patrick. (laughter)

Rāmeśvara: He says we teach our.... I mean he has many arguments. He knows all about the incidents in Germany and Japan, and he uses this against us.

Prabhupāda: He's collected all these bad.

Interview with Professors O'Connell, Motilal and Shivaram -- June 18, 1976, Toronto:

Viśvakarmā: ...Professor O'Connell came over to the temple when this, some man came, Ted Patrick, he came to Toronto last year—I think we told you about it—and he took one of our devotees and deprogrammed her. There was big publicity in the paper for an entire week. So Professor O'Connell came forward and spoke on behalf of our movement, saying that he felt that it was a bona fide system of Vaiṣṇavism. He came to the temple and assisted us.

Prabhupāda: O'Connell knows me from a such long time. Yes. We first met in Harvard University. Next he saw me in London, Bhaktivedanta Manor. I think Boston also.

Room Conversation -- December 26, 1976, Bombay:

Jagadīśa: "But such tactics are a gross violation of fundamental human and constitutional rights are to go without saying. In cases where victims have instigated charges of kidnapping against parents and deprogrammers, grand juries have thus far refused to issue indictments apparently because the work is done at the behest of parents or other relatives and ostensibly for the good of the victim. The situation which has prompted me to communicate with members of the professional psychiatric community involves sweeping implications of a very important legal case which will be going to trial sometime in the late winter or early spring. Some background of the case may be helpful here." Then he explains about the case. Anyway, it's very nicely written. And he's mostly trying to expose that the psychiatrists have to take an objective standpoint. Otherwise, there are some psychiatrists who are atheistic and they are contending that any religious experience or so-called religious consciousness is a...

Prabhupāda: Artificial dependence.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. The papers are publishing, "Kṛṣṇas, they are bad. They are so on, so on, so on." That's all right. Kṛṣṇa is center.

Hari-śauri: Yes, what you said this afternoon... Actually, I found out, one of the arguments that they're using... These deprogrammers, they're very clever. They've done a lot of research, because they're using that statement of Dr. Radhakrishnan's in the Bhagavad-gītā, where he says that man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, "Kṛṣṇa does not mean think of Him," they're using that against us to say that "This man Radhakrishnan was the president of India, and he says that the Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for thinking of Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Just see how much great harm he has done.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Rāmeśvara: "There are two legal cases in progress at this time that we must support—one in New York and one in Los Angeles. In New York the two ISKCON leaders have been indicted by the Queens County Grand Jury for unlawful imprisonment and attempted grand larceny. In Los Angeles, ISKCON and Madonna Slavin have accused her family of kidnapping, and charges of unlawful imprisonment have been entered against the mother and several other members of the Slavin family and two friends." These two friends are the professional deprogrammers. Then it says, "As in nearly all of these cases, the media will greatly influence the outcome. Do not underestimate the power of the media. We therefore must tell our story..."

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa's already become media.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Rāmeśvara: Yes, we are counter... We are fighting them. "...by writing to the District Attorney's"—those are the Justice Department Offices—"or contacting your local media." Then they give the addresses of people in New York and two addresses in Los Angeles who you should write to telling them about all the knowledge you have about all the abuses of Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then it says, "You should commence action for a legal deprogramming. If other families of Hare Kṛṣṇa victims would go to court to get a legal conservatorship or guardianship with an intended writ of habeas corpus..." Now, what this means is you go to the court, and you say "My dear judge, my son is in Hare Kṛṣṇa. He has been brainwashed." And you have a paper from a psychiatrist that says, "Yes, he is definitely acting in a robotlike way." Then the court will say, "All right, you're the parent. So we give you legal guardianship over the son."

Prabhupāda: No, we can place a counter psychiatrist and counter... Just like Cox's statement.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That they will do. They will do their best. We have to do our best. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "This would enable the court to remove the young person from the temple for medical examination and evaluation by cult-knowledgeable psychiatrists and psychologists." In other words, deprogramming. "This is the best thing to do. The media would report it..."

Prabhupāda: No, no. But one psyciatrist may give one verdict, but other psychiatrist may give another verdict. Then how the court will decide?

Rāmeśvara: Because in these temporary guardianship cases, the court is already against us in many places.

Prabhupāda: But... Against may be, but so far the decision of the psychiatrist, we can present our psychiatrist.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Rāmeśvara: They're already working on that. So then they say, "If you can do this to your son, then it will get national news media into the scene, and then people will learn about Hare Kṛṣṇa in particular, and all the effects of destructive cults on our youth." Then it says, "We have a legal packet which contains advice on the procedure and techniques for legal deprogramming."

Prabhupāda: So nowhere they have mentioned my name. That is good. (laughter) Otherwise, I would have been the target. That was very dangerous.

Rāmeśvara: Sometimes... One of the general charges they make against all the different religious groups in America is that the leader is actually making a lot of profit for himself.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Rāmeśvara: Then they say, "The next best thing to do after you get the deprogramming is to hold a press conference to explain all the reasons that there is a need for criminal conviction of destructive cult leaders. Have ex-victims, especially of Hare Kṛṣṇa, present. The truth of their personal experiences carry great weight with reporters. It is now necessary to awaken America to how widespread..."

Prabhupāda: I... In the beginning... I have told many times when I first went that "If I say these prohibitions, who will accept?" And now it has taken a shape, it has become a problem throughout the country. I was thinking, "Who will hear me? As soon as I'll say this, they'll say, 'Go home.' " But by Kṛṣṇa's arrangement it has become a problem. That is Kṛṣṇa's grace. It has become a problem for them; it is success for me. Yes. I presented something which is now a problem for them.

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. When there is fight these things are studied. (Hindi) When there is fight there is no question of immoral or moral. "We must get victory," that's all. Kṛṣṇa did it. Kṛṣṇa asked...

Hari-śauri: According to this, they've made it legal, deprogramming. They're making it legal that they can hold a person by force until they break him mentally.

Jagadīśa: Rāmeśvara? Are there many of our devotees who've been deprogrammed, or are they mostly other groups?

Rāmeśvara: Mostly the others. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the business of the Book Trust has gotten very big. So the warehouse in Los Angeles has become too small. So we have gotten a new warehouse.

Prabhupāda: We have got a warehouse like Howrah Station.

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: All right. You take rest. We shall go a little... (everyone leaves room) (break)

Hari-śauri: They've actually legalized it. There's one group, they're claiming that by deprogramming people they give him freedom of thought.

Prabhupāda: But you are... By deprogramming... They are thinking of Kṛṣṇa. You are checking. Where is the freedom of thought? Then you are illegal. They want to think of Kṛṣṇa, and you are checking. Then who is illegal? We have to put in that way, in their word, that "Then you have no right to check him about thinking of Kṛṣṇa." This will be our argument. Yes. How you can check? Let him think of Kṛṣṇa freely, because Kṛṣṇa wants. Then you have to take Bhagavad-gītā as illegal.

Hari-śauri: Yeah, if they condemn the whole thing, they have to condemn the whole, entire Hindu religion.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say.

Rāmeśvara: They want us to give the devotees to them, and then they will deprive them of food and sleep and deprogram him.

Jagadīśa: But we're already depriving him of food and sleep.

Prabhupāda: But they are open to everyone. Why do you kidnap? Why do you steal like a thief?

Rāmeśvara: For his own good.

Prabhupāda: Then you are thief. Then thief can also say like that, "For my good I can steal."

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: It is not a prison house.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "You cannot deprogram a Christian because Christianity is real. Therefore this is the proof that Hare Kṛṣṇa is false."

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Rāmeśvara: That there is no record of any Christian...

Hari-śauri: We were all Christians, and we changed.

Jagadīśa: There's a record of a Christian deprogrammed, Peter himself. Christ prophesied that "Before the cock crows you'll deny me three times," and he did. He was deprogrammed just by his association.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Rāmeśvara: And also Dr. Harvey Cox of Harvard, he quoted one section of the Bible where Jesus was preaching and his mother did not like it, and his father, and they came to get him away. They thought he was gone crazy, that he was preaching so much about God. So they came to his place where he had gathered many people. They wanted to deprogram him. And Jesus said, "You're not my mother. You're not my father. My real father is in heaven, and my real relatives are those who believe in God."

Prabhupāda: Where is that?

Rāmeśvara: That's right in the Bible.

Prabhupāda: (break) Because there are many fanatics. Hm?

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: Europe? Germany...

Hari-śauri: Germany is bad.(?)

Jagadīśa: North America would be... South America?

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer, very peaceful.

Hari-śauri: New Vrindaban you could go when the palace is done.

(long conversation at end of tape about deprogramming and psychology—Rāmeśvara talks most of the time—can be transcribed if the tape is slowed down and the train noise is reduced.) (end)

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Now, Hari-śauri was (saying) that there are many fanatics. They may attack me: "He's the man who has started this movement."

Gargamuni: Yes.

Hari-śauri: These deprogrammers will go to any length.

Gargamuni: They'll do anything to stop it. You'd have to have professional bodyguards.

Rāmeśvara: This Reverend Moon, he is not being attacked. The other leaders aren't.

Gargamuni: I think you should carry on your fighting from India through your other men.

Rāmeśvara: Or at least a place like Hawaii.

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: We are known as "Hare Kṛṣṇas," and sometimes "Kṛṣṇas."

Hari-śauri: They call us the "Harries."

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Acchā?

Rāmeśvara: In the deprogrammer newsletter that we intercepted, they did not like to chant so much, so after awhile they just started saying "The HKs." They didn't want to say the whole name of God. You noticed that?

Prabhupāda: Now, "H," to pronounce it, and "Hare," Hare is shorter. "H." It is a long.

Rāmeśvara: But for writing, "HK."

Prabhupāda: Writing, you can, but if you say, "HK," it is not shorter than Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is longer than Hare Kṛṣṇa. (laughter)

Room Conversation -- January 20, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: We have one mother in Los Angeles of a girl named Līlā-śakti. She's a big book distributor. And her mother, she loves this movement so much that when the deprogrammers start debating us, she stands up and yells at them that "My daughter was on drugs, hippie, before she came to this movement. This movement has saved her. If I had known about this movement when I was a young girl, I would have joined this movement!" On television she's speaking like that, very strongly. "You have no right to criticize! You don't know anything about this movement." She says, "You just come over to my house for lunch and I'll tell you all about this movement, how nice it is." She started this club, "Parents for Kṛṣṇa."

Prabhupāda: Oh, she is very sincere. And her daughter, this Līlā...? What is?

Rāmeśvara: Līlā-śakti.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Satsvarūpa: "...millions of..."

Prabhupāda: Brainwashed.

Satsvarūpa: "...millions of people, they have to be considered brainwashed."

Gurukṛpā: You should drop the bomb.

Prabhupāda: Stop your Christian propaganda. Why you are doing that?

Hari-śauri: They should deprogram everybody.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So if you want to go for guru-pūjā, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Oh, that check. And another check?

Hari-śauri: And that other check went with Rāmeśvara to Bombay.

Satsvarūpa: One of their arguments is that they'll get some member and deprogram him, some weak devotee, and then he will go to court or he will write and say, "Yes. I did not want to join this movement, but they did something to me, and I lost my free will, and then..."

Prabhupāda: They have said like that?

Satsvarūpa: Yes. They tell so many lies. They say that the devotee looked into his eyes and suddenly he couldn't think anymore.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā?

Room Conversation -- February 4, 1977, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: You are trying also. Now they are also trying mind control, our men kidnapping by force. This is another mind control. They have already given up their mind to us, and you are trying to control his mind by force-deprogramming, kidnapping. Is it not mind control? Here his mind is already in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and by force you are trying to deviate him. Is it not mind control? "And your mind control is good. My mind control is bad." That is your philosophy. So anyone, any rascal, will say, "My activities are good, and your activities are bad."

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Brahmānanda: They put electricity into the brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The deprogrammers are using this. They call it "psychological readjustment," and they put electrical wires...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they put some machine in my head.

Brahmānanda: Well, that was for testing the brain waves. But this way, they put electric current into the brain...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And burn part of the brain, destroy the brain. One girl in our temple in New York, her father is the owner of Financed Foods, which is a very big food market chain like A P supermarkets, very big, and her father owns it. So she... When she was young or before joining, she was a hippie.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our devotees in California was kidnapped out of the airport. She was distributing books in the airport in San Francisco, and because the court gave an order to the parents that "For thirty days you can take your daughter and commit her," so they have brought her to Arizona, where they have a special center set up for deprogramming, legal psychological tests. So for thirty days they ran these... They did some... We don't know what's going on there, some horrible things. Now the girl has sent a letter, and it showed that she is no longer in a devotional attitude. She said, "I'm very glad that I was rescued. Otherwise I would have been made to collect money all my life for your society, and now I'm saved from this."

Prabhupāda: She had been dictated to write like that.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No, then the authorities are, mean, determined to stop this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. It's a dangerous position. This is actually is dangerous position, because they are very powerful. There are many lobbying people. In other words, there are big groups of Christian, Jewish groups. They are especially active because they see that these other movements, not only ours, are taking the young people away from their religions. So they are actively collecting money and giving it to the deprogrammers. They are supplying funds. Just like one man gave this Phoenix, Arizona, center a donation of a hundred thousand dollars to set up their center for taking these young people. And they are internationally organized. They have big centers all over the world now.

Brahmānanda: London, France, Australia, South America.

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. So they have taken it very seriously, to stop.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. Because their own young children, the future of the country, are joining these cults.

Brahmānanda: Two states have now passed laws making this deprogramming legal, and also they have given tax exemption. That means the government is giving...

Prabhupāda: Support.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Support.

Brahmānanda: And they're even talking that maybe the government will give financial grant.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are afraid that these Kṛṣṇa conscious men may capture the government.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: They have formed a group, the deprogrammers, called "Return to Personal Choice."

Prabhupāda: By force. (laughter) This is personal choice?

Ādi-keśava: This is a picture of them returning someone to their personal choice. This is a manual.

Prabhupāda: "I force you. You accept this"—your personal choice.

Ādi-keśava: That is them returning someone to personal choice. You see them dragging them off.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Brahmānanda: In fact many who were deprogrammed have then joined the deprogrammers. Even there are some of our devotees of Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are now going around and deprogramming. They're working for the deprogrammers.

Ādi-keśava: They have their own guru. This Ted Patrick has become their guru, and then they have a whole organization built around him. They are now getting donations, they're a nonprofit corporation, they have established a $100,000...

Prabhupāda: If he's in jail...?

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If he's in jail...?

Ādi-keśava: Yes. Their guru is in jail. Ted Patrick was just... He got out of jail, but he so much wanted to do this deprogramming that he went, and they caught him, and they put him back in jail again. And now he's in for one year, back in the jail. But they are going on with this activity without him. He has trained so many other people up.

Tripurāri: The deprogrammers have been disbanned in Canada. Canada will not allow.

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Tripurāri: People involved in this deprogramming have read most of the books. They have read and studied, and when they try to deprogram someone they quote from the books different things. So is it that they can't understand this philosophy even though they're reading it, or they just don't want to understand it? Just like this man Ted Patrick. He has read so many of the books.

Prabhupāda: How...? What does he say about our books?

Satsvarūpa: One time I heard he challenged a devotee, "Where is your Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva now to save you?" And also, "We have heard that if the Lord is blasphemed, you're supposed to either give up your life or leave the place, so why don't you do? Or cut out the..., cut out your tongue. So why don't you do that now?"

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: You saw him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On television. Ādi-keśava was on television with him.

Ādi-keśava: I said to him, "If you had a chance to deprogram the Pope, would you do it?" He said, "Oh, definitely. I'd love to."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If the Pope was celibate.

Prabhupāda: (looking at photo) Who is this boy?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...that the government is actually... It is not the government, but there are various individuals within the government. In other words, it is not the entire government. Just like in this country it is much more of a dictatorial type government. In America what is happening is that because these deprogrammers... What they are doing is called lobbying. They go to Congress, they go to the House of Representatives. They have all of their members write letters to their local state senators, to the local House of Representatives...

Prabhupāda: Hm. They influence.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And then they get these local men to come together in groups and try to pass laws. So it's not simply that the... But there is more and more now a feeling amongst the government members towards..., favorable to the deprogrammers and against the cults on account of the cheating nature of the other cults. So there's definitely...

Prabhupāda: They should be.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It's definitely... The sentiment is definitely against us and for the deprogrammers amongst government leaders. It's not in our favor. There's no doubt about it. The courts are definitely against us, and the government is also. It's serious.

Prabhupāda: So what can we do?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Hari-śauri: And then they'll influence them away. Actually we have a good reason for not letting them see their parents now, because when the parents call them on the phone and say, "I want to see you for five minutes," it's so they can kidnap them and deprogram them. That's how the kidnap them. The parents call and they say "Oh..." They make some arrangement to meet their child, and it's a trick. They have these gangsters waiting. I can see now my parents weren't so bad after all.

Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm!

Hari-śauri: I was thinking I was very unfortunate to take a birth in a family of nondevotees, but they're not so bad compared to these others.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā's mother is here.

Prabhupāda: Oh. What does she say?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone is from divorced family. Jayapatākā's mother, my parents, Brahmānanda's parents. Brahmānanda's mother called him. We think that they were trying to deprogram Brahmānanda, because the second day that Brahmānanda arrived in New York, suddenly his mother called. How could she have gotten news that he was coming to New York? We never told her. But as soon as he arrived in New York she called him. So we ascertained they are listening to all of our telephone conversations. And they know. They are writing. The deprogrammers are writing to all of the devotees' parents in the movement, and they are going and talking to the parents, saying, "Do you know what your son..." or "Do you know what your daughter is doing? Are you aware that your daughter has lost all of her free choice? That they're being brainwashed now by this cult? That they are giving her... They have spoiled her whole life?" In this way they try to pollute the minds of the parents who are innocent.

Hari-śauri: They're doing that everywhere, too. In Australia they're doing the same thing there, too.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they know all of the devotees' parents' names. Because the few devotees who do become deprogrammed, they give them all the names they know. And they have some informers within our temple also. All of our parents have told us that the deprogrammers contacted them.

Prabhupāda: They're organized.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if the law helps to kidnap, then what you can do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that just now there was a meeting of the five hundred leading rabbis of the Jewish faith in favor of deprogramming, because they're very alarmed that the young men and women of the synagogues are joining our movement and other type of movements and leaving their so-called past religion. So the rabbis are going to take up... They like this deprogramming. They like this kidnapping. And he says also that just now in Newsweek magazine there's been a big article printed in favor of deprogramming, special article about this Tucson, Arizona, deprogramming center. So he says that he expects more and more of this deprogramming. He's a little bit alarmed because all of our leaders will be here in India now for the next few weeks.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Why don't you do it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So he's a little alarmed that we'll all be coming to India, and these deprogrammers, they know this. So he's concerned.

Prabhupāda: So do you think by going there they'll be saved?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By staying in America, you mean?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, there's two things. One thing is that from our side we have to explain that they have no brains. That we have to preach. And from the other side, all of these other professional groups who are helping us, they have to counteract what these deprogrammers are doing by lobbying in Congress and all the other legal means. We cannot do that, but they have position; they can do that. So we should inspire them to do that.

Ādi-keśava: For every letter that the deprogrammers write to some Congressmen, they have to write a letter. For every speech that the deprogrammers give, they must give a speech. That is the only way it will work. Just like they applied to the Catholic Church to speak in the classes of the Catholic Church about cults and deprogramming. So now we have also had our people apply to the Catholic Church that we can also speak in their classes in favor of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: So then you have to go?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. If he knows about, anything about Caitanya, why should he say like that? Bogus temple. By attempting to establish a temple like that, he has diminished his value. And therefore it is doubtful whether he actually obtained this. Now, our Bon Mahārāja also writes "Doctor."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Purchased title. These deprogrammers are doing very active campaign work by getting entry into the schools, the public schools, to speak to the children in the age groups of twelve, between twelve and fifteen, junior high school, high school age. And they're making presentations to them about these different groups like ours, to beware of our groups. To beware of our groups. In other words, it's actually very bad because these children are innocent, and from a very young age now they're being told, "Watch out for the Hare Kṛṣṇas. They will brainwash you." Of course, that makes us even more appealing.

Prabhupāda: That is our advertisement.

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: They'll do it.

Ādi-keśava: Plus, as the teachers begin to see all the big scholars are supporting us, then the teachers will not react so favorably to these deprogrammers.

Indian man (3): Like, like that (Bengali).

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is Satsvarūpa? You can give him that, yes, that monama.(?) (end)

Evening Darsana -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: You find out that man. (Bengali) ...chai ne, drinking ne, smoking ne. It became too much inconvenience. Wife is separated. This is tapasya. It cannot be accepted by ordinary person. Tapasā brahmacaryeṇa (SB 6.1.13). Tapasya begins from brahmacarya. And brahmacarya means "no," so many. No "yes." Only "no's." "Not this, not this, not this." It is very difficult. Therefore the Americans are surprised: "How our sons have accepted so many 'no's' unless there is brainwash? And this man knows some mind control, and he's controlling their mind, independence. Bas. Deprogram. Capture them." This is the... "How our sons can accept so many 'no's'? " And important items—no meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication. Everything, life, is no. (laughs) Rāyarāma said, "It is simply 'no's.' " He left.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: He is in... This is one of the men who was used to hold a devotee during a deprogramming, a big... I know this man personally. You see, already we have sometimes come to blows with them. We had one incident where a devotee was being held captive, and I went with some devotees in the middle of the night, and we had some fighting. The police stopped us. They took me away and beat me and threw me in the bushes, and then they kept the boy there, the devotee. He got away later. But men like this we have fought with several times. When it comes to these questions, I wanted to know, when there is sometimes some violence...

Prabhupāda: What can be done? Violence. Beat him.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: They're hired men. This is the case of one of their men who was later held for murder of another man. He was used in a deprogramming, and then later on, some months later, he murdered some man and went to jail for it. So they're very serious. It's not just philosophical arguments. There's a list here in this book we've made of the devotees in our movement who've been taken. This list is very recent, by temple. You can see in practically every temple they have taken some devotees, some who are..., most of them are back in our movement, but some who are not. But now their tactic is this legal thing. Now they get this legal conservatorship, and then even we go and save the devotee, we take them back, the police can come and arrest us. So in these cases we are finding that the only thing to do is sometimes to go and physically drag them away and hide them until the term of this thing is up. Another thing is we are giving, as we said yesterday, some asylum in other countries, like with Canada. And one thing is that the Indian government told me that they would give me asylum. The Ambassador told me that if I were to be held, the Indian government would give me asylum.

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Ādi-keśava: Sometimes in their propaganda these deprogrammers they complain about our sannyāsīs the most. They say, "Because they are saying everything in the material world is evil, so therefore they are the worst."

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is worst. Because I am spirit soul, I am now imprisoned with this material body. It is my unnatural state, and I am eternal, and because I have accepted this material body I have to undergo birth, death, old age and disease. So that is my effort, how to get out of this material body and remain in my original spiritual identity. That is our whole propaganda. We think material atmosphere is our imprisonment, suffering. Material body means suffering. Otherwise I am eternal, blissful, full with knowledge. That is my position. But because I have been impact... (aside:) Again you have the same disease. Attention, you attend, draw there.

Room Conversation -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Minneapolis it's still happening, and San Diego, it's still happening. They learned it from the Yanoff case. That Yanoff issue in Chicago. The deprogrammers then wrote to each other that "This is a very effective means to cripple their activities, because they will yield to this pressure."

Prabhupāda: That they will try, but we can find out another avenue.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Well, that's what we did do.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So now they're frustrated. On the whole, it has not hampered our book distribution.

Prabhupāda: That we want to see. That is result, that's all.

Room Conversation -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Oh, you must kill them. Tit for tat. As soon as we detect that "Here is deprogrammer and kidnapper," kill him. Finish!

Hari-śauri: And if we go to court, then it's self-defense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At least give him some good lesson. Yes.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Definitely.

Prabhupāda: That should be done.

Hari-śauri: We fought with demons once or twice before that have attacked the temple. We ought to give 'em a good hiding.

Prabhupāda: There is civil war. Why not this?

Evening Darsana -- February 24, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: The practical example is there. In everywhere they are coming to the temple. So in England there is opposition.

Jayatīrtha: Not really. There's none of this deprogramming or any trouble like that. People are pretty peaceful. We have a pretty good reputation. The government doesn't oppose us.

Prabhupāda: They oppose our Ratha-yātrā.

Room Conversation With Artists and About BTG -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.

Rāmeśvara: I've seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now...

Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.

Rāmeśvara: Now, these scientists, they are studying Hare Kṛṣṇa meditation, but they're also studying some other processes which are not authorized. And they are...

Prabhupāda: That is the defect.

Room Conversation -- February 27, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They are doing it on account of this movement. Government has appreciation our movement, from private sources. Now this, our American, what is called? Opposing.

Hari-śauri: Deprogrammers.

Prabhupāda: Deprogramming. The Indian government are taking seriously, yes, that is private arrangement—that "Why they are opposing this movement? We allow Christian to come here. Why not Kṛṣṇa?" The Consulate General, ambassador, has taken.

Harikeśa: It is very important.

Prabhupāda: They are taking it from national point of view. That is... Anyway, there is some defense from government side, their representative attending every court case. Yes?

Room Conversation -- March 26, 1977, Bombay:

Hari-śauri: ...for myself? That boy who was with me from Australia, I've sent him back this morning. He's gone back this morning. There is actually two or three major things going on there, so I have to try to get back as soon as possible. There is a purchase of the farm, eight hundred acre farm, which comes up in about seven or eight days, and then we have to consider whether to buy that building in Sydney. You've seen that picture already. And also there's a big court case coming up in Melbourne. The deprogramming thing is going on there also. But this time the court case is being pressed by... It's a civil case. The police wouldn't take it up. So the girl who was kidnapped, we are pressing charges, but through her against the parents. So this is going to be a big case also. So that's coming up in the end of April. So I have to see what the presentation is like and get more information from Ādi-keśava and make sure that we will press it very strongly, the whole issue. Someone just sent a newspaper clipping about the whole thing. I expect to be going to Delhi in about two days, to try to speed up the process of getting a re-entry permit. Then once I do that, I can go on. (long pause) (break)

Girirāja: This evening, the chief guest is going to arrive at about a quarter to seven.

Prabhupāda: Who is the chief guest?

Morning Talk -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: This is fact. So always remain very, very faithful to Kṛṣṇa and guru. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). Remain... So don't care for anything, any, the deprogrammer, and what are others? Eh? What are others?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, those are the... Deprogrammers.

Prabhupāda: That is the... Now at least in America nobody can do that, deprogramming?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they still can.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They still can.

Prabhupāda: Can? The... How?

Morning Talk -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They still can.

Prabhupāda: Can? The... How?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This court case has not stopped them from deprogramming. It has established... It's a precedent case, which makes it very difficult. But they can still try. In different states they are still pressing for other laws. It wasn't...

Prabhupāda: But the airport authorities, they're also coming favorably.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Gradually they'll come. We haven't got to be afraid of all, anything. That is the point.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- April 18, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No. No.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...go away. I don't want to produce like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the opposite of the deprogramming problem in America. In America we have to take them forcibly from their...

Prabhupāda: Not forcibly.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they are coming voluntarily, but, I mean, the parents are resisting. But here the parents are agreeing.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I found very interesting in the villages. I thought... I was planning to make programs very extensively in the week, but because of rain, it was...

Prabhupāda: In Manipur also there is rain.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Restrict, that instead of myself, he has to restrict: "Do this way."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Including go to the court. This boy writes further. He says, "They claimed I was brainwashed by Śrīla Prabhupāda and the devotees, and they were here to get me to think for myself again. They kept me up for ten hours at a time for so-called deprogramming, just blaspheming Śrīla Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa and telling lie after lie. Finally they let me go to sleep, and in the morning it was time for more blaspheming and lies. But by Kṛṣṇa's mercy I was able to escape out the front door of the house," he says, "which was unguarded. I ran down my block barefoot and was able to get to my friend's house. I told him the story. He gave me enough money to get to a nearby temple.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: They had the police looking for me all over the place in only a minute, and they finally showed up. Mahārāja felt it was best that I go back and clear things up with my parents and with their consent come back. But they refused to let me go, and instead put me through a one-month deprogramming session. This time I was unable to escape. But now Kṛṣṇa has pulled me through, even though I'm forced to live with my parents. They are nice people, but they just don't understand about transcendental life. But they will come around sooner or later. I cannot keep any Vedic literature at home, so a friend lets me keep it at his house, and I read it during my school lunchtime. I am not able to keep japa beads to chant on, so I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa on rosary beads. I'm sixteen years old now and going to school, where I am taught little of any value. It is sometimes difficult to remain Kṛṣṇa conscious out in the material world, but I pray to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityānanda to help me become strong and desire to serve Kṛṣṇa more and more every day. I will be able to join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in person in two years, which isn't very long considering that I have waited to serve Kṛṣṇa for millions of lifetimes. If you have the opportunity to serve Kṛṣṇa, don't waste it, because you may wind up in my shoes in your next life. Hare Kṛṣṇa."

Room Conversation Mayapura attack -- July 15, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right, but that very word, that "The founder was not there," that means they were expecting that if I would have been there, they would have charged that "He is in the spot, and he has ordered."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seems like all over the world that it's a little dangerous now. The deprogrammers, they could also say, "He is the one behind it."

Prabhupāda: That they are saying.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would get some kind of court order. At least in Vṛndāvana you're safe. (Prabhupāda chuckles) Two hours for the police to come.

Prabhupāda: They did not like to come.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that was part of the plan, not to come. "Let them have enough time to destroy everything and cause injury. Then we'll come afterwards."

Prabhupāda: They do that.

Correspondence

1976 Correspondence

Letter to Ramesvara -- Hyderabad 2 December, 1976:

Regarding these deprogrammers, we must defeat their false accusations in the courts. We do not force anyone. They may stay or go, the freedom is there. Out of their own accord they don't want association with meat eaters, drunkards, and debauches. Just as there is warning from the government that if you steal you'll be punished. We are convincing people not to commit sinful activities or associate with sinful persons. Are these bad tactics? We are making men of good character. It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. Even 10 year old boys are smoking, so much degraded. We are trying to convince people to become first class men rather than fifth class men. We have to fight.

1977 Correspondence

Letter to Ramesvara -- India 29 January, 1977:

Please accept my blessings. I have received your letter of January 24 with the enclosed newspaper, "The world Examiner". He has done this expertly, in the style of "The Reader's Digest", taking articles from different newspapers. Combinedly, it is a strong statement against the criminal position of "deprogramming". Distribute them widely, and if you can do it

freely that is also good.

Page Title:Deprogramming
Compiler:MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari
Created:23 of Dec, 2011
Totals by Section:BG=0, SB=2, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=1, Con=56, Let=2
No. of Quotes:61