Prabhupāda: That means I am continuously there although my body in different ways have changed." So it is a fact that even after changing this body, you will have another body. Just like you are sitting in this room. Now, if you vacate this room, that does not mean you are finished. You have gone in some other room. So this is a great science. And people are neglecting this science. They have no, I mean to say, information. There are so many departments in universities, technological, medical, engineering, but where is the department to know or understand what is this life, what is God, what is our relationship? So this is not very good civilization. So there is life after this life. Just like progressive life, a child is progressing to youthhood, the youth is aspiring to become a big man, important man. As in this life there is progressive life, similarly, life after life, there is also progress. There are different grades of life.
Department (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
"department"
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Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Actual identity is that you are spirit soul. And this material body is your covering. Just like dress. Just like when you dress, the real body is there. Similarly, we are within this material body. So we are taking more care for the dress and not for the body actually. But when a body is dead we can understand that there is something missing. That missing thing is the soul. In the modern educational field there is no department of knowledge to understand that what is that missing part. There are so many theories, but they are not practical. Therefore we have to understand the soul and its constitution from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gītā. Then we can understand our identity actually. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that persons who are identifying themselves with this material body, they are not actually human beings. They are counted amongst the asses and cows. So that is ignorance or illusion.
Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success. We are not animals that without any success we shall work hard labor. That is animals' business. Just like several times I have given the example, dophara gadha, the ass of the washerman. That kind of business and work is no use. Dophara gadha, ass of the washerman. Here, of course, you have no experience. In India there is a class who are called washermen. In India there are different castes. Washerman, a class; barber, a class. I mean to say... So many departmental. So each and every one, there is a class who take up that work. Sweeper, a class. All the necessities. The clerk, even clerk, there is a class; priest, there is a class; the fighter, there is a class. That is nice arrangement.
Prabhupāda: So far Hindu religion is concerned, it is a very broad thinking. The Hindu religion, Vedic religion, is divided into two kinds of philosophers. One kinds of philosopher is the impersonalist. They take the Absolute Truth as impersonal, all-pervading impersonal. And the another philosophers, they take that the Supreme Absolute Truth is person. The impersonal feature is one of the features of that person, but ultimately he is person. So without person there cannot be any question of love. Therefore the section who believes in person... Not believing, they know actually what He is, and there is method how to love that person. The example is given: just like the sun and the sunshine and the predominating Deity in the sun globe, similarly, one who comes to the light, he first of all sees the sunshine. That is impersonal. Then, if he goes further, if he is able to go to the sun planet, that is localized. And if he can enter into the sun planet and see the predominating deity there, then he is a person. So this is a vast science. People are too much engrossed with material activities. They do not try to understand actually what is the position of Absolute Truth, what is the position of the soul. Practically in the present day they are more or less animalistic. Just like animal does not know anything beyond eating, sleeping, mating and defending, similarly, the modern civilization is too much busy for increasing the method of eating and increasing the process of comfortable life or sleeping, and increasing the matter of, method of sexual life, or increasing the method of defense. So these things, are found even in the animals. They also eat, they also sleep, they also have sex life and they also defend in their own way. So human life is not limited within these four walls. He has to understand what he is, what is this world, what is this creation, what is God, how it is going on. But they are neglecting that fact. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness will give information to this department of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: As I have told you, that Bhagavad-gītā is the book of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like any department of knowledge, there are some books to know that departmental knowledge or science, similarly, to know Kṛṣṇa consciousness there are many books and especially Bhagavad-gītā. In this Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that "Anyone who gives Me fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, with great devotional love, I eat." Therefore we offer these things to Kṛṣṇa in different preparations, and we know He will eat. And that's all.
Prabhupāda: Of course, such description is not in the Vedas, but in some sources we can understand that one king wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom, but he was opposed. He was opposed by the demigods. So much information we have got. So those who are not fit to live there or enter there, maybe they will be opposed by the inhabitants there. And that is also natural to think. If somebody all of a sudden comes to your country, oh, there is immediately immigration department. They will see the bona fides, how you can enter? So why don't you take that also? If moon planet is inhabited by more intelligent class of living entities how do we expect that without opposition we will be allowed to enter?
Reporter: ...that there would be no contradiction there and in the case of say no interference from any moon beings, that I can foresee that there would be no contradiction there if it is achieved.
Prabhupāda: No. That means simply by your suit, if you... Just like if I got a nice suit and enter your port, New York or any port, but if the immigration department does not allow me, what can I do? Is that suit sufficient? You cannot enforce there. There are intelligent persons there. Suppose if I come, a very nice costly dress, in your port and if your immigration department does not allow, what can you do? There are intelligent persons there. How do we expect that simply by you have got suit, therefore you'll be able to, allowed to enter there? That is not sufficient qualification.
Reporter: I'm just trying to pin you down to a very exact statement if I can as to whether or not if they found the suitable spacesuit and did land, whether they would be interfered with.
Prabhupāda: Interfered... Interfered... Now you try to understand. You come from Europe or from India in a very nice gentlemanly suit. Does it mean that immigration department will allow you to enter the country? That means even if you have got suitable suit they may be opposed if you haven't got, I mean to say, proper qualities and other bona fides. Because to live in the moon planet there are different qualities and bona fides. So not only you have got to make a proper suitable dress but you have to qualify yourself for getting visa of entrance into moon planet.
Journalist: Oh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not? Suppose in your country, you have got some quota for immigration. Within this planet, if somebody comes, without your immigration department's order, nobody can enter. How do you expect in that planet where the people are more advanced, they are called demigods, they are living for ten thousand years, how you expect that you go and you are immediately enter into the moon planet? And they are selling tickets, reservation. You see? Everything, they make a fun of it, you see?
Journalist: Let me understand this if I may. Are you saying that there are people on the moon?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Journalist: There are. And they are demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs. Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you have got controller here, some departmental director of this department, director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on automatically, without any control? You see?
Journalist: Well, I know that's a question that, of course, one asks oneself all the time, I guess. It's part of man's quest to find himself and...
Prabhupāda: But they should have common sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very good reasoning?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You have got so many scientists. Just find out what is the image of God, whether his form is not... Where is that department? You have no such department. You have got so many department, technology department, this department. Where is that department, what is God to know? Is there any department of knowledge?
Journalist: I don't know if... There's no God department working tonight I'll tell you that right now.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty. And here is, here is the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement is the department of knowledge how to know God. Then you'll not accept any rascal as God, you'll accept only God as God. (end)
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Paramātmā, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative.
Prabhupāda: It is accepted that everyone goes. But if somehow you are stubborn to remain here, how one can help? (laughter) Just like the university is open for everyone. But somebody is stubborn to go to the prison department. So how the government can help? Government does not say that "Some selected people come to the university, and others go to the prison department." It is open for everyone, but it is the particular mentality—one is going to the university; one is going to the prison house. That is your individual independence. That is your choice. Just like so many students, they have come here. Others have not come here. So everyone has got little independence. So everyone can go to the spiritual world if he likes. But if he does not like, he will remain here. That is his choice.
Prabhupāda: But it is the mission of human life to come to that point. So at least there must be some center or institution who may give them this idea. It is not that everyone will come. Just like there are many educational department. I know in Calcutta in our boyhood age, at that time Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee was vice-president. So he opened some classes in the university. In each class there were four or five professors, and at that time the professors' salary was 1300 dollar, 1400 dollar. And the fees were collected, at most thirty-six dollar per month. You see? But still the classes were to be maintained because the ideal must be there. So our mission is the intelligent persons of the world may know that this is not, simply seeking after sense gratification is not the aim of human life. Human life is meant by... Just like Bhāgavata says, jīvasya tattva-jijnasa. Vedānta says, athāto brahma jijñāsā. The same thing.
Prabhupāda: Material energy that's said by Kṛṣṇa aparā, inferior energy. Bhūmir āpo, bhūmir āpo analo, prakṛtir me bhinnā aṣṭadhā. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parā (BG 7.5). So material energy is the covering energy, is also Kṛṣṇa. Just like police department is also government, but it is not very convenient because putting under police department. (laughter) That is also government department. For government the university department and the police are equally important. They are spending equally, are taking care of both the, but for us, "Oh, police department horrible." This man is under police department, police custody, and that man is in education.
Prabhupāda: ...in charge of that particular department? Why it, supervision? But casual supervision can be made. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: ...after that? Or does that work better?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Prasādam is finished at two? Then up to four they are free. Or up to...? No.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. In the meantime, you prepare the literature. You give me the literature. I'll get it printed somehow or other. You give me the synopsis. Both you consult, make a literature. And as soon as the literature is prepared, you will be out with that. And we have got so many centers. There is no difficulty of staying. He can stay in some center and go and see the important men there. He is educated. He is learned. He has known our philosophy. He can convince people. He can arrange a big meeting of respectable men. They must know what we are doing, the importance of this movement. And your people, your government, is anxious to have something tangible because there are already frustration in so many departments, in so many factions. So this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, will, I mean to say, smooth everything, pave everything.
Satsvarūpa: But still... I've already done that. I've made him, but practically I'm still managing anyway. And I made Murāri manager, but still I'm... I don't spend much time in editing. People are always coming, and I'm running all over the place. I don't edit at all. It makes me sad. I don't...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What you do, he goes. And what he does, you go. Then final. In this way. But the last editing should be checked twice. The dictaphone, then checked by him and then by you. Or checked by you and then by him. That's all.
Hayagrīva: Yes. And Pradyumna does the Sanskrit after.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. That is printing department.
Hayagrīva: And then Jayadvaita does the composing.
Prabhupāda: Jayadvaita and others.
Satsvarūpa: Pālikā and Arundhati.
Prabhupāda: Now, I heard that you are composing fifty pages daily, altogether?
Jayadvaita: No, not fifty pages. The manuscript pages, yesterday we composed about forty manuscript pages.
Prabhupāda: Correct, all? Complete?
Jayadvaita: Yes. The original... It's done twice. So those first pages, the first time, they'd already been done.
Prabhupāda: No, no. These forty pages, they are complete?
Jayadvaita: Yes. They are complete.
Hayagrīva: You want me to do Nectar of Devotion and then Kṛṣṇa and then Bhagavad-gītā, in that order?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So everything is all right, bṛhat-mṛdaṅga department? Major saṅkīrtana party. They are going, saṅkīrtana parties in different cities. That is junior. But your, this party, it is senior. You are sitting one place; you have to work thousand times more than them. Yes. You have to edit in such a way. Where is that water?
Brahmānanda: It's being offered, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: All right, all right. That's all...
Satsvarūpa: I have a question from the art department.
Prabhupāda: Art, yes.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatinandana: That is service in the mode of ignorance?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. They cannot serve. All these welfare activities of the world, what they are serving? That I explained this morning. They are trying to give help to the poor, but the number of poor is increasing. They are trying to give medicine or relief to the suffering patients. The patients are increasing. Hospitals are increasing. But if our number of temples, Kṛṣṇa temples is increase, that is something sound. But they are increasing hospitals. What do you think? If we increase number of hospitals, does it mean that we are making progress? But they think that they are making progress. Just like in your country there is welfare department? The expenditure increasing.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Med... Yes. In medieval India.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...and old and feudal India, you are right, this was very often. And from brāhmaṇa, brāhmaṇa, from brāhmaṇas the major part of height is(?) religious stuff (?) (rigid stock) in religious department(?). Even Mogul emperors, there were brāhmaṇas who advised modern Mogul emperors...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...in administration...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is impossible. Our idea is that best ideas from the original idea. Just like in the Bhāgavata there is a description of communistic idea, and it is being described to Mahārāja Yudhisthira. So if there is something good, good experience, why it should not be adopted? That is our point of view. And besides that, in the modern civilization they are missing one point: the aim of human life, scientifically. The aim of human life is self-realization, ātmā-tattvam. It is said, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ yāvan na jijñāsa ātmā-tattvam. Unless the human society comes to the point of self-realization, whatever they are doing, they are being defeated, parābhava. I think you know this word, parābhava. Parābhava. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. So actually it is happening so. The modern society, human society, there is advancement, economic advancement, so many things, advancement. Still, in the matter of keeping peace and tranquility there is fight, individually, socially, politically, nationally. So if we think very cool-headed, then in spite of so much improvement in so many branches of knowledge, we are keeping the same mentality of quarreling. That is also visible in lower animal society. So our conclusion, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that this body, human body, it is not meant for working very hard for sense gratification. In the modern civilization the ultimate goal, aim, is sense gratification. That's all. Beyond that, they do not know anything more. They do not know what is next life. There is no department of knowledge or science, scientific department, to study what is there after life, after finishing this body. That is a great, I mean to say, department of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That... Why? Why there is no department of knowledge in university to study this fact scientifically? That is my proposition.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that means they are lacking. It may be as you say, or it may be as I say, but there must be a department of knowledge, what is the... Now, recently one cardiologist, a doctor, he has accepted that there is soul, in Montreal and Toronto. I had some correspondence with him. So he is strongly in belief that there is soul. So that is another point of view, but we accept knowledge from authority. Authority. Just like this statement is given by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the authority by all the ācāryas, in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is studied amongst the scholarly circle and philosophical circle still, all over the world.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I agree with you that this was addition of late brāhmaṇas who tried to...
Prabhupāda: No, that, that has killed the Indian culture. You see? Otherwise there was no necessity of division of this Pakistan. Not only that, from history, perhaps you know, this whole planet was Bhāratavarṣa, and it was controlled by one flag up to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. Gradually they separated, separated. This is the history. And late, lately they have separated Pakistan. So Bhāratavarṣa is now crippled into a small piece of land. Otherwise this whole... According to our scripture, Vedic scripture, this, this whole planet is called Bhāratavarṣa. Formerly it was named Ilāvṛtavarṣa, but since the Emperor Bhārata ruled over this planet, it is called Bhāratavarṣa from Mahārāja Bhārata. So this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, Vedic culture, were existing... Now any religion you take, Christian religion, Mohammedan religion or Buddhist religion, they are, utmost, two thousand, three thousand old, years old. But this Vedic scripture, you cannot trace out where is the beginning, where is the beginning. It is therefore called sanātana, eternal. And this culture is for the whole human society. It is not a departmental religious faith. Religious faith you can change, but real dharma you cannot change.
Prabhupāda: But of course, people are not very happier. One gentleman... He's in government service. I am speaking, in 19..., sometimes, 1950. He was in statistics department, Mr. Dal(?), Kashmiri gentleman. He was coming to me in Allahabad. He told me that "I went... I go to the villages, and the villagers say, 'Bābuji, angrej ko bahut (indistinct)?' " That was his statement.
Guest: People...
Prof. Kotovsky: Yeah, because every..., there are some kind of people in some administrative departments who...
Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...are both masters(?) and ex-British officers.
Prabhupāda: ... the difficulty, that India is nowhere. They are trying to imitate, Westernize, but they are hundred years back. From materialistic point of view, technological point of view, they are hundred years back.
Prabhupāda: It's Kṛṣṇa's mission to awaken man's original consciousness. At the present moment we have got designated consciousness. I am thinking "I am Indian," you are thinking Englishman, another is thinking American. But actually we are neither American nor Indian nor any that sort of designation. We are part and parcel of God. That is our real identification. If we come to that consciousness, then all the problems of the world will be solved. Now, due to our designated consciousness, we are thinking, "You are different from me, I am different from you," but if we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we shall know that we are one, the same spirit soul, maybe in different dress. That is the explanation given in Bhagavad-gītā. Just like we are all human beings, gentlemen, ladies. Maybe in different dress, but our aims and objects are the one and the same. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purificatory process. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). To make people free from all designations. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. And in Kṛṣṇa consciousness they become purified. And when they're purified their activities by purified senses make them perfect. That is the ideal perfection of human life. And our process is also very simple. There is no need of becoming a great philosopher, scientist, or thoughtful man. Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord we can immediately contact with the Lord, because the Lord as the person and His name and His quality are all absolute. So this is a great science. Unfortunately, there is no department of education for this science in any one of the so many universities.
Prabhupāda: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity.
Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it, and I...
Prabhupāda: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he didn't even tell us.
Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I'm quite sure. But of course, I think...
Prabhupāda: It was not tactfully done.
Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford St., but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard and fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see.
Devotee: One night at Picadilly Circus we were eight and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said, "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound five each... They were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go."
Guest (2): Can I ask about your rate... about growth? How, can ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand.
Prabhupāda: Because... That is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: "Yow! Yow! Yow! Why you are coming? Why you have come?" Just like here. Here, everywhere. The immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming... Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as, so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is...
Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to...
Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like your English people. They were welcome. Lord Clive was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit and he is worshiped. That is Western civilization.
Prabhupāda: ...not sentimental. There is no religion, and still, they are professing, "I profess this religion," Where is your religion? If actually there was religion in the human society, why there are so many problems? There should not have been so many problems. The problems are in the animal society. Why there should be problem in human society? Because they have given up the real principles. They are simply animals. Therefore there are so many problems. Actually there is no problem. Even they are not animal. Less than animal. In animal society there is no problem. There is problem, but not so acute. They are free. Just like the ducks, the pigeons, they fly from one country to another. They have no problem of immigration department, passport, or visa. They have no problem. These rascals should understand that they have created problem on account of their animalistic, less than animalistic civilization. There is no limit of sense gratification. The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that?
Devotee: Yes, I've heard.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: They are all hippies. So what do we expect? They are taking education, and then, after taking education, they don't do anything. This is a problem. And so many illicit children, and the government has to supply them food, and the welfare, what is called? That welfare department?
Devotee: Social security, welfare.
Prabhupāda: Security. No, social welfare, that the girls are getting illicit children and the government has to supply food for them. Nobody is taking care of the girls, of the children. And government has to take. The responsibility is increasing, so many things, but this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will solve all the questions. It is such a nice movement. It is a boon. So you study from that point of view and prepare your journal. Therefore I am talking so many things. This is good material for your writing, practical.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The temple is calling on the phone. They want to know if you are coming to that...
Prabhupāda: No. No. It is too late. Just like there is higher studies in science, in so many departments of knowledge. It is not that mass of people is interested in Ph.D. degree. But if one is interested in Ph.D. degree, therefore government provides him: "Yes, in university, you come." That is the real facility. So if anyone is interested to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it should be denied? Why this should be obstructed because I do not like it? In big, big universities, maybe in higher studies, there may be one student, and for that one student they are maintaining four professors. Each professor is paid two thousand dollars. Is it not a fact? What do you think, you professor. Is it not a fact? Some department of knowledge is maintained, even it is not paying. Is it not? There are so many departments simply for research work because the government knows it is important thing. It may not be for the mass of people, but at least one, two intelligent class of men, he pays, qualified: "Let them have this opportunity." So this is like that.
Prabhupāda: Oh. By June. All right. We shall talk further. What is this? So Los Angeles is... Everything is all right?
Karandhara: Yes Prabhupāda. Those are all... All the different envelopes are from the different departments, Spiritual Sky, Mail Order, Iskcon Media.
Prabhupāda: So you keep it in this envelope. Then I shall see.
Śyāmasundara: They have purchased $8,000 worth of equipment for recording your voice.
Prabhupāda: Oh. That will be very nice. So I can give lectures daily? No. What is the arrangement?
Karandhara: Yes. As soon as you come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we're going to shoot the first TV show.
Śyāmasundara: You have a video tape machine here?
Prabhupāda: Now, if I explain some of... Just like I explain one verse. In this way, if I do explain one verse, do you think it will be all right? No.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So Veda, Veda means knowledge. So every human being should be interested for advancement of knowledge. So our movement is not a religious movement. It is a movement for advancement of knowledge. And this knowledge, God consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is especially meant for this human body. Because knowledge cannot be given to animals. I cannot speak to the other animals about knowledge because they are imperfect. Their body is imperfect. They are not suitable for receiving knowledge. Only elementary knowledge for maintaining this body, they have got: where to secure food, where to sleep, how to have sexual intercourse, and how to defend. These knowledges are there in animals also. So human being requires further knowledge. That is special prerogative, gift by God, by nature. Whatever you say. So we should utilize this human body for furtherance of knowledge. And the first important knowledge is that we should know that there is life after death. That is the basic principle of knowledge. Unfortunately at the present moment, in no university there is any department of knowledge where this education is given where there is life after death. I am traveling all over the world. There is no such department. They have completely evaded or set aside because they cannot make any solution whether there is... I talked with one Mr. Kotovsky, a Russian professor in Moscow.
Devotee (3): In Harvard Library, your Bhagavad-gītā—they have many, many Bhagavad-gītās, about four hundred, many, and Bhagavad-gītā As It Is was taken out of late, since it's been in there, more than any other ones. They all have dust, and yours has been taken out. And Kṛṣṇa book was never in, I could never see it in, because it was always out, from the very first day it was in. In fact, when it was going into the library, the head of the department, he took it right away.
Prabhupāda: Another thing happened in Los Angeles. I wanted some quotation from a place of this Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So the man came, he said, "Swamiji, first of all I must buy this book. Either you accept or not accept our quotation, what price I shall pay?" I said, "Give me six dollars." Immediately he took this book. "Such a nice book I have never read. So either it is printed or not printed in our press, I must take this book." Actually, these ideas what we have explained in our books, they're unknown to the modern world. Unknown.
Śyāmasundara: They're not described anywhere else. No other source.
Prabhupāda: Nobody knows that God can be person, there can be dealings like this, there are dealings actually, and they are described. That is wonderful.
Prabhupāda: Because they're better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then we get chunks. That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in-charge of that department is demigod. Creation, that's Brahma; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Viṣṇu; and dissolution, Lord Siva.
Prabhupāda: He has to manage so many things. So extensively touring means for the mission expanding, that is the point. Simply touring is not required, but doing something substantial to increase the interest of the society. That is the point. So, Karandhara has got many department supervisors(?), so he can be given to work, and sometimes go away (indistinct). So, his position is like that. And similarly Bali-mardana's position is there. He can be also if he has got many engagements, many departments managed there. So he may not tour but our only aim is that one must take multi-responsibilities.
Śyāmasundara: He can oversee some foreign...
Prabhupāda: Yes, he has this book department. Book department and... They may move according to convenience, Bali-mardana and Karandhara. He has got also very responsibility, with this department, that department. He has to purchase small houses. So big brain (indistinct). So similarly, you also think on the books. Everyone take big responsibility. Then we have to serve this mission. The people are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering them. Best service. And without God, it is all useless, zero, all this civilization. Zero. Whatever they are making advancement, it is all zero. And nonsense. But actually it is. Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man.
Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.
Prabhupāda: By māyā. By having... Just like government controls everything. A criminal is controlled by the police department.
Bob Cohen: And how does Kṛṣṇa control a devotee?
Prabhupāda: Just like you control your beloved. Just like you have got a beloved child. So you control him, for his benefit. If he's going to touch fire, you immediately say to him, "No, no, my dear child, don't touch it." So a Kṛṣṇa conscious person, devotee, he is never misled, because Kṛṣṇa is always guiding him, whereas those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, they're in charge of māyā, and māyā will do the needful, as you have seen(?).
Bob Cohen: Is is preset when we're born, the time that we'll die?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Bob Cohen: Is the time that I'm going to die, and everybody going to die, is this preset before they're born? Do I have, when I'm born, do I have a certain given lifespan?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: Her husband is alive?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They live separate building. That mean, that they live separate building, separate (indistinct), she looks one department of business, and he looks another department. That child, adopted. She has no, own child.
Devotee: Oh.
Devotee (2): So, perhaps she's ship the punks, and the vehicle.
Prabhupāda: And the car also. And I've asked her to become the president of the trustee for construction of Bombay. She has agreed.
Devotee: What will the business of the trustees be?
Prabhupāda: Heh?
Devotee: What will their business be as trustees?
Prabhupāda: To raise fund.
Prabhupāda: But they will do it because they have got motorcars, they must find out petrol.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why they are called development of new departments of knowledge. With the rise of necessity, they develop new departments of searching out the unknown.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of this development? It will be problem after all. What is the use of such knowledge?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They fail to see that point.
Prabhupāda: That means they are rascals. They do not have clear eyesight, clear insight. They do not know whether they are degrading or developing. Just like the flies, with great force they will go into the fire. They think they are making progress, they are going to the light. They think; otherwise how they are going? Such kind of advancement. They are going to die, be annihilated, and they still, "Oh, we are going force, by force we are going to the light. Here is darkness, there is light." This is their philosophy. Just like a mad driver drinking drives recklessly to die, that's all. But he is thinking, "Oh, I am going with so much great speed." He does not know that he is going to die after few minutes. And that is their development.
Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge has begun from wrong conception of life.
Jayatīrtha: They see that they are being cheated, yet they are cheating others also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda says, there are so many departments of knowledge in all the universities, but the most important department of knowledge, what is the purpose of human life, is left out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...leaders. General public, they do no know, they are ignorant, blind. But the leaders are also blind. So blind leader leading other blind men, that means disaster. That is happening.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Most people, including scientists, they are not satisfied with the arrangement of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness.
Prabhupāda: Ah. A very nice gentleman. Indology. He is charge of the Indological department. Russia has got very good respect for Indian culture.
Ambassador: Yes. That's right.
Prabhupāda: They have very good respect. So that.... (break)
Ambassador: ...have much, they don't believe in God.
Prabhupāda: They do not know the (indistinct).
Mrs. Keating: Do you have many Indian followers? Many Indian followers as well as foreign?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so far Indians are concerned, everyone accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Once I was invited to speak in that institution, MIT. So I questioned, "Where is your department of technology to understand the difference between dead body and living body?" So I spoke on this. So the students appreciated. After my lecture, they gathered around me. How do you explain? What is that technology, why the man is dead? Science is simply based on this bodily concept. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13).
Indian man: But about body also they don't know anything.
Prabhupāda: That also they have no perfect knowledge.
Indian man: About matter they say... (indistinct) has written a book in which... (end)
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Take papad. Not now, at lunchtime. (Hindi) So you can come at night?
Devotee: (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) (break)
(Hindi conversation)
Devotee: Very soon the man from department of religion will be coming.
Guest (1): Minister of religion.
Devotee: Yes.
(Hindi conversation between guests and Śrīla Prabhupāda with occasional English words and phrases interspersed)
Prabhupāda: Shall we go there so that we can sit comfortably.
Devotee: Well there're the same amount of chairs whether we're here or there.
Prabhupāda: No, there are no more chairs. (indistinct)
Devotee: Yes, I guess that's best.
Prabhupāda: People are coming, so will you kindly take the trouble to, inside sitting?
Prabhupāda: Yes, thank you very much. (to guest:) You don't take charge of that.
Devotee: We will take that. (break) Yes. This is Mr. Ivy Mastram and he is in charge of the Hindu and Buddhist Department of the Department of Religion. And this is his next-in-command, director-general, Mr. G. Puja. He was educated in India also.
Prabhupāda: Oh, really. Which city?
Guest (2): Benares (indistinct) University.
Prabhupāda: Oh, Benares University.
Devotee: Actually, they have arranged by giving a letter, that we can stay in the country. They simply say, "We do not object," and then the immigration gives us a good visa. They especially like your books.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you. You have read some of my books?
Guest (2): Yes.
Guest (2): He is the director of the (indistinct) of Hindu and Buddhist religion, from Department of Religious Affairs. His duty is to maintain and look after the development of (indistinct) expecting that all people of Indonesia that has to follow any kind of religions (indistinct) Christians, because we have also in charge for the Christianity, we have also in charge for the Muslim, or Islam, and we have also in charge for the Catholic and we have also in charge for other...
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. This is very nice.
Guest (2): So because we have so many in the prosecuting of their religions, there might be, the people between many religions (indistinct). So the government have to lead the people how (indistinct), to supply also, in the (indistinct) of their materials for readings, and facilities for their, prosecuting their religions. This is the actual (indistinct) department.
Prabhupāda: So this is the idea which I was explaining that...
Guest (2): (Indonesian) As a matter of fact, also that we are looking from the Hindu and Buddhist religions' point of view, how to get (indistinct) this department, especially because we are feeling of lacking of materials because no of our books actually here, written in ancient Indonesian language, which are translated from Sanskrit (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Ancient English...?
Guest (2): Ancient Indonesian language.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Guest (2): Which we are expecting that this Bhagavad-gītā should be read by English (indistinct) and also, matter of fact, most of English readers can understand and they have the ideas of the Mahābhārata, and Rāmāyaṇa, and the essence of the Bhagavad-gītā. Now the problems, at least the department has (indistinct) facing difficulties to supply materials that are actually needed by the people, is we are lacking of materials. So how, actually we have to solve this problem actually. We are actually, from the government point of view always looking and how we can try to get international relationships between various countries to solve the problems. As the same case also how to educate Indonesian peoples to study more about the Hinduism in order they can teach the Hinduism because in our country religious instruction is compulsory in our, any institution. So we felt, actually in our lack of material as well as lack of institution to develop this Hindu religions. And I, from our government actually, we are expected your visit here that it will be beneficial, both for our side, from the government point of view, and as well as for here and as well in your country.
Prabhupāda: So I think your problems can be solved if you kindly cooperate with us.
Guest (2): Yes. That's why we are looking for... because...
Prabhupāda: We can give you correct idea of religious principles as well as our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is... The Bhagavad-gītā is the preliminary study of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Just like before learning any literature, one has to read the first book, ABCD. The Bhagavad-gītā is the ABCD. It is just beginning of understanding of what is God. ABC. When one has passed the entrance examination, then he gets the opportunity of studying Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. In the Bhagavad-gītā the last instruction is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, is explaining Himself, and at last He says that you surrender unto me. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. So if one has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then He's admitted in the college of studying Bhāgavata. Before that he has no place. Just like without passing entrance examination, nobody's admitted in the college course. Similarly, without understanding Bhagavad-gītā perfectly well, one cannot understand what is Bhāgavata. Bhāgavata is the graduate study. So this Vedānta-sūtra, the Vedānta-sūtra is the summarized study of all Vedic knowledge. And Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is the explanation of Vedānta-sūtra. So people are in darkness about this great knowledge and the science of God, all over the world. They are misled. They're being misled. Misled in this way, that this human form of life is specially meant for understanding God. The animals are not very (indistinct), but the present leaders they're keeping all the human being in the animal condition of life. Their chance of becoming conscious about God is being sacrificed, being misled, by so-called economic development, plans. All this economic development means, they're meant for this bodily comforts. Any department of knowledge at the present moment, they're simply aiming at giving some artificial comfort to this body.
Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...
Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required. Similarly, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, they're required to function the society perfectly. That is varṇa. And similarly, for spiritual emancipation there must be the division: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So unless you accept this institution perfectly you cannot develop your consciousness as perfect human being.
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence. We are teaching people this intelligence. That's all. We don't decry that your studying of the laws of nature is useless. We don't say that. We say: "Not so much. This is imperfect. Go forward still." And that is perfection. You are a science student. By your scientific knowledge, you prove that behind these laws, there is Kṛṣṇa. Then your scientific knowledge is perfect. Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter. Through that department you go to the ultimate center.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Dar, Darwin? Oh, naturalists.
Prabhupāda: No, No. There are...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, archaeologists?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anthropology. There's a department...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Anthropologists study with the skulls and...
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh. This is...
Karandhara: Ecology?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Anthropology. It is a false theory, and upon this so many universities are spending money, professors. Thousands. Rascal theory. You see. In this way, they're wasting money. Śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the chairman of the department, he was telling later on that "About theology let us talk later on." So he dispersed the meeting after that. Theology, they thought, that I was talking on theology.
Prabhupāda: It is not theology, it is science.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it is science. But he was assuming like that because his business is to protect the... This is outside speaker, comes from outside the university.
Prabhupāda: So how do you say it is theology?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was just commenting like that, that...
Prabhupāda: So you should have presented, "No, it is not theology. I am talking on the scientific basis."
Prabhupāda: Oh, then what kind of scientist he is? So they know that you are theologist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the department everybody knows. (laughter) There is one theoretical chemist. His name is Max Muster (?). He is from Germany. He is a theoretical chemist. Once I invited him to come to Los Angeles to talk with Prabhupāda. He agreed, and but then he told me that he will think for one day whether he will come or not. Then next day he told me that he is afraid. "I cannot come because I am afraid that I will be put on the walls." (laughter) But he is very philosophical. He believes in God. He has some... That's why if you talk with him, very nice.
Prabhupāda: So that is also nice. We are not afraid of meeting any philosopher or scientist, but they are afraid. That is our credit. All scientists know that they are on the wrong basis, but because they are scientists, they say like that. That is their position. They do not believe in their own statement. Therefore he said, "I do not know."
Prabhupāda: So many dangers. (break) So there are no more talks in your...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there is a talk coming next week. There is a lecturer coming next week. He's slightly connected with evolution. He's a Nobel Prize winner. He's from Berkeley. He's coming next week, next Wednesday. He is going to give two lectures in our department. He is going to talk on evolution. The first lecture.
Prabhupāda: Darwin.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, evolution in general. And second lecture is on cancer, the causes of cancer disease.
Brahmānanda: Do they know the cause of cancer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, there are several theories. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Suppose he knows the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Neither he can stop cancer, neither a man suffering from cancer, if it is cured, he will live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot check death. The death may be caused, if not cancer, simply by accident you can die. The real scientific research should be how to stop death. That is real scientific. That we are giving. To find out some medicine for some disease, that is not triumph. Real triumph is how to stop disease.
Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.
Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body: the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you may—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be-their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemists, physicists, engineers, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point, angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa, if you cannot meet Kṛṣṇa, you can meet with Kṛṣṇa's representative. Kṛṣṇa may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gītā. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā. Kṛṣṇa says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvān manave prāha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Ikṣvāku. In this way..." Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Kṛṣṇa's representative is there. If you talk with the Kṛṣṇa's representative, then you talk with Kṛṣṇa. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Kṛṣṇa, but in higher stage, you can meet.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect. They are trying to improve the condition of sleeping, eating. That's all. That is advancement of civilization. But that is not advancement of civilization.
Prabhupāda: And to get help for this realization we are concerned with everything. Naturally, politics, economics, science, art, philosophy, everything is included. And that is the perfection of all other subject matter. Everything has got an objective. So any of these departmental knowledge, namely politics, economics, art, science, philosophy, religion, art, science, philosophy, religion, everything should be aimed to achieve this end, God realization.
Reporter: But, thank you. But, uh, so, in this way, you have to, in all of the science, you mean, economic, politic, etc., you have to take position, sometimes perhaps. For instance, for going to the knowing of Kṛṣṇa in politics perhaps you will choose one system or the other. And in science, in philosophy, etc. Do you... But this, those choose have never been explained to the people, you know.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it should be.
Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something... Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is...
Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one has got faith and devotion to God, God is one... God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to... Not according to... This is the Vedic conclusion.
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
One must be religious. Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied. Therefore there is confusion, dissatisfaction all over the world because, because people have become irreligious. If you want to keep... In Calcutta, there was, in the American Consulate Office, I was invited. There, they have got a department: "Indo-American Cultural Society." Perhaps you know.
Ambassador: I see. Please give me the name and the nationality. I can immediately (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you can submit immediately some of the names. Because we are organizing there, and the security department there: "Oh, your visa is now complete. You please return."
Ambassador: I know.
Prabhupāda: But who... We have got now temples. Who will manage that? Big, big temples I have constructed. In Navadvīpa, in Hyderabad.
Ambassador: Navadvīpa... Of course, Navadvīpa is...
Prabhupāda: In Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: What is your post? Typing? No.
Banker: She's a clerk in my department.
Prabhupāda: I see. So our philosophy is Bhagavad-gītā. You know Bhagavad-gītā?
Lady: Yes, very little.
Prabhupāda: That is standard. All big, big ācāryas of India.
Banker: Is this the thousand-page book that you're holding?
Gargamuni: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So before leaving India, you can become a member. We have got many books, twenty books like that. This is published by MacMillan Company of New York.
Banker: Welfare. Payment to people who don't work.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone should work. Our Vedic philosophy is that everyone must work. But there must be division of work. Just like in your body there are different parts. The head department, the arms department, the belly department, and the legs department. These are different parts. So all these departments must work for the total benefit of the body. That is our philosophy. Nobody should sit idle. But he must work according to his capacity. Brain must work for giving direction. Hand must work for giving protection. Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection.
Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.
Prabhupāda: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?
Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.
Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.
Prabhupāda: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, "Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?" These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was... I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No.
Gargamuni: I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible.
Hṛdayānanda: They have a whole new department called gerontology to stop death. In one article they had about twenty different methods, and they said all of them, none of them have succeeded yet. But they were very confident.
Yaśomatīnandana: Even for them there is some medicine in the Vedas. If they go to heavenly planets they will be able to live longer. They are so stupid, śūdra class, that they can't.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yaśomatīnandana: Even if they go to heavenly planets by following Vedas, still they will be able to live longer, but by their mundane efforts they will not be able to increase...
Prabhupāda: No, nobody... In the material world there is no question of living forever. That is not possible. That is in the spiritual world.
Sudāmā: I don't ever want to stop preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Well, preaching, you cannot manufacture preaching. You must do preaching according to the principles ordered by your spiritual master. You cannot manufacture your own way of preaching. That is required. There must be some leader. Under the leadership. Yasya prasādād bhagavat... Why it is said? Everywhere, in the office, there is some immediate boss. So you have to please him. That is service. Suppose in office, in a department there is office superintendent. And if you do in your own way, "Yes, I'm doing my business," and the office superintendent is not pleased, do you think that kind of service is nice? No. Similarly, we have got, everywhere we have got immediate boss. So we must work. That is systematic. If everyone manufactures, invents his own way of life, then there must be chaos.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have departments.
Prabhupāda: They why they are complaining?
Hṛdayānanda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I saw a big pamphlet.
Bali Mardana: They've made...
Prabhupāda: What is that meditation?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Not everybody.
Prabhupāda: Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu, that is already spoken. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Bhagavad-gītā; at the same time, He says,
- manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
- kaścid yatati siddhaye
- yatatām api siddhānāṁ
- kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
- (BG 7.3)
"Out of many million of persons are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfect, one can hardly understand Me."
Prabhupāda: But they cannot produce. That is the difficulty. They'll speak all nonsense, but cannot produce. No experiment. Simply theoretical observation. That's all. So observation is not perfection of science. You must produce it by experiment. Then it is perfect. Two departments.
Hṛdayānanda: So if you can produce something, that means you actually understand it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it is a combination of such and such chemicals... Just like these rascals say, "Life..." Now he said that "You take the chemicals. Can you produce?" He said, "That I cannot say." You see? Avoiding the issue. This was discussed in the meeting. What is that gentleman?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor Stanley Miller. He's from San Diego, physicist.
Prabhupāda: Miller. Yes, he has got Nobel Prize. And his theory is that from chemicals, life has begun. So he said in the meeting that "If I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. He has no pure idea, still he has received the Nobel Prize.
Hṛdayānanda: They became disgusted with the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. It's simply, we can say, what is called? Stereotype, the church. Just like you said they want more pay. Payment... They have no knowledge, so what is the use of taking advice from such rascals? What is the use? But here it is not like that. We know the science of God. We know who is God. It is not a vague thing. Now you try to understand. Let there be educational institution. America has got so many universities. Let there be a department. There is already a religious department. So let the students learn the science of God. We have got so many books. Why they will not? They are actually appreciating. So this should be introduced in the university, in colleges, in schools. Why they should neglect such a, such an important scientific knowledge?
Devotee (1): When we try to introduce it sometimes, they very often say that it is sectarian.
Prabhupāda: Not sectarian. You do not know. Why do you say sectarian? How it is sectarian?
Devotee (1): They say that it represents...
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. So is it not for everyone? God consciousness is sectarian? Is it meant for certain sect? Or it is meant for human beings?
Hṛdayānanda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) No, but don't think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must... (break) This is their business, śūdra business. Śūdra business. Śūdras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brāhmaṇa required to guide the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons?
Karandhara: Well, he's a rascal.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court." Why not institute a case?
Umāpati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That's why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government.
Prabhupāda: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check?
Umāpati: Well, they're so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yaśomatīnandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves.
Prabhupāda: So that also we admit. That is another thing. But the... Therefore we have got two departments, the spiritual world and the material world. In the material world everything is created. In the spiritual world, not created. It is ever-existing. And anything which is created, that is annihilated.
Karandhara: The energy is not annihilated.
Prabhupāda: No. That we also accept. But that energy belongs to whom?
Karandhara: Well, they say that because it was never created, it doesn't have to be created.
Prabhupāda: No, no. This material world is created. That you cannot say, "It is not created." Everything we see in our front, everything is created.
Devotee: By argument you can convince a skeptic of the possibility of the existence of God, but the reality of Godhead can only be really realized... I mean has to be experienced or realized, does it not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is a point of realization. But the first preamble is that there must be God, the Supreme Being. In the dictionary it is stated, Supreme Being. So as in every department, everywhere, there is a supreme controller. Same example. The president is the supreme controller of this state. United States. In another state, in India also, the president is the supreme controller. Similarly, taking the whole universe or many such millions of universes taken together, there must be a Supreme Being. Otherwise how things are going on, nicely? (break) This is our first point.
Prabhupāda: In New York, everywhere, every town, our men go and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and sells books. That's it. (break) ...order. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Whomever you meet, you just deliver the instruction of Kṛṣṇa to him. That's all. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). (break) (Hindi) They have got a cultural department, but not for helping this. And then... (Hindi) This is my position. Just see. (Hindi) That is the śāstric injunction. Kīrtana means about Viṣṇu. But these Ramakrishna men will say, "Why not Kālī?"
Guest (1): No, no, no, they never say that.
Prabhupāda: But they say that.
Guest (1): No sir. I am attending their lectures, classes, and discussing with them.
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda's philosophy is yata mata tata patha: "Whatever you have got, your opinion, that is all right." They organize Kālī-kīrtana in competition to...
Guest (1): Yes, in their mandira. In the mandira. In the mandira their kīrtana is Kālī-kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: But that is not recommended in the śāstra. Śāstra is: śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23).
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is devotee.
Prajāpati: Yes, they are all three devotees.
Prabhupāda: But they're engaged in three departments.
Karandhara: We were thinking for the administrator there could be a judge.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Karandhara: Could be a judge, a high-court judge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means administrator.
Karandhara: Yes. The other one could be the president.
Prabhupāda: Yes, president also administrator. No, one is in the religious order. That is also required. But here we see, persons who are in religious order, they're also addicted to these four sinful, four sinful life. And he's presenting himself as religious.
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent, and the material nature is not.
Prabhupāda: No, material nature... Just like you don't care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That's all. You'll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position.
Bali-mardana: Either to be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali-mardana: One has a choice to either be controlled by love or by force.
Prabhupāda: But love, there is no love when there is force.
Prabhupāda: That is important. Otherwise every work is preaching. See that everyone is engaged. There was an advertisement by the railroad department, their monogram was a wheel of carriage and they have written that every employee of the railroad should see that the wheel is running on. Wheel is running on. Now suppose in the office the clerks are working, so how they will see the wheel is running on? Because in the office of railway there is some complaint, there is some claim, there so many things... But that is depending on their wheel. So they should expedite their business so that wheel may not stop, it must go on. It is very nice instruction. So the wheel is going on. Suppose some station has asked for ten wagons immediately, and that requires the sanction of the divisional superintendent. That is his office. So the clerk should help the progress that immediately the sanction is done. Then the wheel will go on. Do you understand? So everyone can help that the railway wheel is going on. Although apparently it will appear that "What this clerk has to do with the wheel going on?" Is it clear?
Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books?
Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ...in separate department.
Passer-by: Rādhe, Rādhe!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe."
Viṣṇujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were...
Prabhupāda: This is India.
Hṛdayānanda: Should they be trained in a particular...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.
Hṛdayānanda: Those who cannot preach.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya, or as śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: And sometimes...
Prabhupāda: Not he's śūdra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.
Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.
Guest: Therefore... I'm coming on that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection, of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple, is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is going. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The position was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of position, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty man. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was, I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said, "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. It "may be." That means the option is equally open: "May not be," also. That's only (indistinct) has been taken without any basis of policy.
Prabhupāda: That is your second item.
Yaśomatīnandana: We will simply present our philosophy.
Guest: No, but your philosophy is only, you see, you are taking the signatures. So they will know, they'll see, any department will know that you are taking signatures.
Yaśomatīnandana: Oh yes. We won't say that they are rascals, we will just say...
Guest: Even though you never say that they are rascals. You know, in your personal meeting, private meeting, you may call them rascals. But when the public meeting, you never call them rascals.
Yaśomatīnandana: So they...
Guest: Then your principle is that "If we do any action, they may throw our boys out of India."
Yaśomatīnandana: But here is agitation. We are...
Guest: (indistinct) ...propaganda of collecting the signatures... (break)
Yaśomatīnandana: So I was also thinking, Prabhupāda, that we can still approach the higher level with...
Prabhupāda: Who is arranging for this higher level? Why it is open? Who is rascal, it is open and it is still open? Who is that rascal? But you do not know. This, you should never close this... (end)
Prabhupāda: Virginia. Virginia. Different branches in different states. And the school is in Texas, Dallas. There is immense potency of increasing this movement in America. Immense potency.
Dr. Patel: In all departments of life you can increase. Even the workers who are...
Prabhupāda: No, I say, "Let there be saṅkīrtana in factory."
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is what I say.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: We will start such a factory and do it, and it will be an ideal for...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't start. Already the factory is there. Go and teach them.
Dr. Patel: Where? In America?
Prabhupāda: Any... Here. There are so many factories.
Mahāṁsa: ...persons serving, taking people who are serving Kṛṣṇa into serving their sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Engage them. māyā... It is not actually māyā's fault, this māyā's business that all living entities who are within this material world, they have come to enjoy. Enjoy means sense gratification. So māyā is kind enough to give them all facilities. That is māyā's business. māyā has a machine, these three qualities, and as I want to enjoy, so there are departmental arrangements, "Give him facilities like this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Gargamuni: No, but the quality is better.
Prabhupāda: Quality is better, but it will be cheaper. It doesn't matter. But to get books there, it takes so much time and the book department is not being managed nicely. But if we print here, the all problems will be solved. Here that gentleman, he has got press. Why not let him print? Yes. Why don't you call him immediately? If he can print. We can reprint all the books here.
Mahāṁsa: But the quality will not be half as good.
Gargamuni: There is now a paper shortage in India, very acute.
Prabhupāda: Well, we can get paper from foreign countries. That will be not difficult.
Dhanañjaya: "In this translation the western reader has the unique opportunity of seeing how a Kṛṣṇa devotee interprets his own texts. It is the Vedic exegetical tradition, justly famous, in action. (reads rest of foreword of MacMillan edition of Bhagavad-gītā As It Is)" This is stated by Professor Edward C. Dimock, Department of South Asian Languages and Civilization, University of Chicago. Please take this.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. It will be a source also for unprofessionals, also to give true interpretation yes, by devotees.
Prabhupāda: The trades manager of Messrs. MacMillan Company, he has reported that this book is selling increasing, and other editions, they are decreasing.
Monsignor Verrozano: A great sign of interest.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Thank you. Well, may we be united in hopes and prayer and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, kindly pray to God.
Prabhupāda: Just let me finish. So United Nation is taking care of the fourth class department of the society. What they are taking care of the first-class department? That is my question?
Nitāi: He is asking what are they doing to care for that first division.
Prabhupāda: At the present moment in the society, there is very, very little care for the first-class intellectual class of men.
Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain... This is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for..." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.
Prof. Regamay: But nonviolence is not well in every case?
Prabhupāda: No, nonviolence... Actually that is the subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā. What do you mean by nonviolence. Because you are not this body. Suppose if I tear away your coat, does it mean that you are killed? So those who are in the bodily concept of life, "I am this body," for them, this kind of fighting or killing is violence. It is violence. But the thing is, there is sometimes necessity. Just like every state maintains the military force, the police force. What is this? The violence department. Required. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). Suppose you are attacked by some rogue, and if somebody comes and kills him, there is a necessity. It is natural. If you say that time nonviolence, it is foolishness. It is foolishness. Vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Those who are rogues and, I mean to say, culprit, criminal, they should be killed. They should be stopped by violence. So violence is required sometimes. Violence is not bad, but it is not to be used ordinarily.
M. Roche-dieu: Are you in touch with Professor M. Eliade who is in Chicago, department, religious department?
Yogeśvara: What is his name?
M. Roche-dieu: Mssr. Eliade, Eliade.
Yogeśvara: Professor Eliage?
M. Roche-dieu: E-l-i-a-d-e. He's a woman.
Yogeśvara: Eliage, Professor Eliage...
M. Roche-dieu: Eliade. Eliade.
Yogeśvara: Eliade. Chicago University?
Prabhupāda: No, I have never gone to Chicago.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: Professor Dimmock, perhaps you are familiar with Professor Dimmock. He's head of which department?
Satsvarūpa: East Asian.
Yogeśvara: The East Asian Studies Department of Chicago University has written the preface to this Bhagavad-gītā.
M. Roche-dieu: I have seen it, yes. Chicago University Department
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Swiss Man (2): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he hopes we excuse if he has some basic questions that he wanted to ask. And his first question was regarding tilaka. What is the symbolism, significance?
Prabhupāda: It is just like your cross, amongst Christian. It is temple of Viṣṇu. Not only here, we have got twelve place: here, here, here, here, here. Twelve place. The idea is being protected by Viṣṇu from all sides.
Prabhupāda: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees.
Bhagavān: This is one of our other specialties.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hānir asya upajāyate.
Devotee: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It's a description of the activities of Lord Kṛṣṇa. That's in two volumes.
Priest: It's a tremendous work.
Prabhupāda: Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world.
Professor La Combe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable, respectable or nonrespect..., no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India.
Professor La Combe: Where is your maṭha in Vṛndāvana? In Vṛndāvana proper?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have been in Vṛndāvana?
Professor La Combe: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Where did you stay?
Professor La Combe: I did not stay. I just visited, went around.
Prabhupāda: I see.
Prabhupāda: That is your sentiment, but practical world, he is a scholar, he is a head man of a department, a university. He must be famous.
Devotee: I just saw... Maybe you knew the latest headlines in the newspapers today were "President Nixon is found innocent."
Prabhupāda: Oh, ācchā?
Devotee: They said he was found innocent.
Prabhupāda: In the court?
Devotee: Yes. Because, you knew about the Watergate case. He was caught...
Yogeśvara: Prabhupāda knows the story. He knows the incident. He was found innocent by who? By court?
Devotee: Yes, by the whole government. He had done some cheating and campaign making secret tape recordings against the other party.
Prabhupāda: He did? And still he is innocent?
Prof. Pater Porsch: But will this center also be a place of learning for Sanskrit studies and allied topics?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We are educating our children in Dallas. We have got very good institution, Sanskrit and English, and they are reading these books. That is sufficient. If they read these books, all different department of knowledge will be acquired. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. Yes. You can play a little record. Last night...
Haṁsadūta: This morning's recording?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.
Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajña. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Professor: ...the ātman of the world, let's say, absolute...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ātmā and Paramātmā, Paramātmā. As I was speaking, nityo nityānām. We are all nityas, eternal, but there is one chief nitya. Just like leader. Everywhere we go, we have got a leader. Now, this, your Mexico state, there is a president. You cannot avoid it. In your college there is principal. There must be a leader. Similarly, the whole thing taken together, there must be one leader. You have to speak from experience that in your physical department or in your religious department there is a chief, leader, professor. Or you may be. But that is the way. Therefore Vedic information is that we are eternal, but there is another eternal who is chief eternal. That is God. He is eternal; we are also eternal. Then what is difference? The difference is that eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān: "That one eternal, chief eternal, He is maintaining all the subordinate eternals." So both eternals are eternal and... The purpose is pleasure. Just like a small example, a family man. The father is the chief man in the family. The mother is there, the children are there, all together. But the father is the chief man in the family. He is maintaining the family, and there is ānanda, pleasure. Similarly, ānanda is the aim of both, all the eternals, the chief eternal or the subordinate eternal. But the supplier is the chief eternal. So when we come together, the chief eternal and the subordinate eternals, and enjoy together, that is the purpose of life.
Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.
Prabhupāda: The real problem is that the human being, I am speaking only of human being, not of the animals, because the animals, they do not know what is the problem; neither they can solve it. It is not possible. In the human form of body there is possibility of making a solution of this problem. Therefore in the human society, along with other educational department, there should be an educational department to understand what is soul, what it is (is its) nature, how it is working, what is the future, wherefrom it is coming. So many things there are. But there is no education for this prime factor, the driver. There is no education.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Therefore she is asking you, "What is the solution?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that solution we are preaching, we are trying to preach. At least one section of people should know the science of the soul. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Just like medical necessity is there, does not mean that everyone should become medical man, similarly, the science of soul is necessity; it does not mean that everyone will be the transcendentalist or the scientist about soul. But at least one section of people must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. As much as there is medical man—he knows perfectly well what is physiology, anatomy—there is engineer—he knows how to construct—similarly, a section must be there who knows perfectly well about the science of soul. So as there is need of medical man, engineer or lawyers or other, similarly, there is need of one section of expert who knows the science of soul. The medical man, the engineer, the archeologist or this or that, they are all meant for the body. Similarly, there must be one expert section who are meant for the soul. But all the universities, they have got these departments, medical department, engineering department, law department, but there is no department which is teaching perfectly well about the science of soul.
Prabhupāda: Just like if you paint a picture, rose, you are a painter, not that you know the knowledge. A painter is not a man of knowledge. Man of knowledge means he knows how things are being done. That is man of knowledge. Painter imitates some painting, that's all. He may be a good painter, but a painter is never taken as man of knowledge. I think, therefore, two departments, art and science. So this knowledge, this technical knowledge... Suppose one man has created an aeroplane. That is an art; that is not knowledge.
Prabhupāda: This I want. You are nicely educated. Now by dint of your education, you prove that background is Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Then your education will be perfect. Otherwise you are one of these fools and rascals, that's all. The particular type of education, mathematics, chemistry, physics, what you have learned after working so hard, now you should by your educational-departmental education—you prove that the background is Kṛṣṇa. Then your education is perfect. That is the verse, idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā.
Prabhupāda: Nikhilānanda was working with Dr. Bose, Bose's laboratory, and before my joining, it was disclosed that I was also... Dr. Bose had one department. He was in charge.
Tripurāri: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you first began to distribute Back to Godhead magazine by yourself, right, in India? You would go to the shops?
Prabhupāda: That was second stage. The first stage I used to publish and distribute as gṛhastha, I did not mind whether one page or not. I was distributing. So spending about four hundred, five hundred rupees, I did not care if one page or not, but I'll distribute. Then, when I retired, left home, I was publishing and distributing myself to get subscription. The subscription was very cheap, two rupees, four annas, I think, for the year. Two copies per month. Just like you published The Harmonist? Like that. Then I published Bhāgavatam. So I was going to libraries, school, colleges, and everyone was purchasing. My Bhāgavata was being purchased by your Congress Library. In Delhi they have got office. So there was standing order, eighteen copies of my book as soon as they are published. The head librarian in India, New Delhi, he gave me standing order. Dallas is very cold? No. Like this.
Prabhupāda: That will include everything. If we make Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes perfectly educated. We do not require to... Just like if you pour water on the root of the tree, the water reaches everywhere. And if you pour water on the leaf, on the twig, or on the branch, it does not go anywhere. It is localized. So at the present moment, service is a particular departmental service, not all-including. So, to educate people in Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to educate him all round.
Reporter: I understand, Swamiji. Again the deficiency is obviously with my question. My question relates to service to the outer world by your disciples.
Prabhupāda: That I have already explained...
Reporter: Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: That if you pour water on the root of the tree, the service reaches everywhere.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about our art and literature which just shows that...
Prabhupāda: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that...
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That's a fact.
Paramahaṁsa: Actually, I noticed that myself so many times in the way you handle money and the managerial affairs, very expert.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... Śrī-caitanya-mano 'bhīṣṭaṁ sthāpitaṁ yena bhū-tale, svayaṁ rūpa gosvāmī. Who established the mission of Caitanya Mahāprabhu? Rūpa Gosvāmī. He was minister. He was not a cultivator, plow department.
Paramahaṁsa: It's very difficult in Kali-yuga to get the advanced materialists such as ministers and big businessmen...
Prabhupāda: You can convert. It is not difficulty. How the Rūpa Gosvāmī was converted? Because the expert man... That person was Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So if you become expert, you can convert. How this governor was coming, how these politicians were coming?
Paramahaṁsa: Because you're the expert.
Carol: I only do it for a living. The other side of me is something...
Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say the anthropology it is a big scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there?
Carol: I find it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like this.
Prabhupāda: Then how you are going to speculate on anthropology?
Carol: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: If you cannot adjust, how you are wasting your time in the science, anthropology? It is a false science.
Prabhupāda: Your preaching will not be stopped. It will go on. (pause)
Amogha: He's bringing the car. He went back. He'll bring it around. (reading sign) "The Tree Society originated the idea of placing this kadi log in King's Park. The log, normally destined for milling, was provided and brought by Booning Brothers P.T. Limited from their Darling River sawmilling area. The following transporting and placing in position of this great log from over 200 miles from the depths of the forest, with each of the three sections borne on a 200 horsepower motor truck, was a major engineering feat and a tribute to the spirit of western Australian timber men. With the approval and assistance of the King's Park board, the actual placing of the log in King's Park by 25 June, 1958, was contributed to by Hume Pipe Co., Aaron Brothers B.P. Australia Ltd, the Forests Department and other government departments. The completion of the project was a fine example of community effort."
Paramahaṁsa: It weighs a hundred and ten tons. And it's 363 years old, this log. They say it grew that long. In America we have some redwood trees in California they say are many thousands of years old.
Amogha: This is a type of eucalyptus?
Paramahaṁsa: It says Eucalyptus diversicol.
Prabhupāda: Bhāgavata says, kiṁ taromana jīvanti. You want to prolong your life. The trees—they do not prolong their life? So if you prolong your life, does it mean that you are better than a tree? Kim taromana jīvanti. If prolonging life is your mission, the trees automatically do that without any scientific knowledge. Then what is the value of your science? Kim taromana jīvanti. Do they not live for thousands of years? What is the value of such living? If the tree is living, standing for 10,000 years, then what is the value of this 10,000 years? So if you live like a tree, without any benefit, then what is the value of your life?
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual life.
Paramahaṁsa: They consider spiritual life as simply a department of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, psychology.
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual life is reality they do not understand. They take it as something mental position. (long pause)
Gaṇeśa: All of these gurus are being exposed. Just like Guru Maharaji.
Paramahaṁsa: Generally people don't believe it if someone says he is God.
Prabhupāda: The first thing is: what wonderful thing he has done, that he is God? People have no common sense. We accept Kṛṣṇa as God. There are so many wonderful things done by Kṛṣṇa. Now what has he done that we accept that he is God? He has fallen in love with his secretary; any common sweeper also becomes.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you have to understand what is the basic principle of civilization, what we want to fulfill, what is the goal. There are different species of life beginning from aquatics, fishes and animals in the water. Then, as the water dries up, then vegetation come. In this way there is evolution from aquatics to vegetable life, then moving, insects, reptiles. Then, gradually, birds. From insect, the flies come out, and then flies gradually comes to bird. Then from birds to beast, four-legged. Then from beast to human being. Then human being, the aborigines, uncivilized. Then you come to civilized life, which is generally known as Aryan life. So the Aryan civilization, Vedic civilization... In this way we get this human form of life, developed consciousness. Now we should try to understand, "What I am? Am I this body or something else?" That is the subject matter of enquiry. So where is that department of knowledge?
Justin Murphy: Where do we fit in?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Justin Murphy: Oh, yes, but we also have many... I'm nowhere near what you're saying is a first-class. I'm talking about some of our latter-day philosophers, and Bertrand Russell is a person, for example, who, for gentleness, sobriety, and thought, whom I admire very much. And he has attained that himself. He hasn't been... He was certainly, as we all must be, surely, trained to begin with. But then it's a process of individual thought.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution—this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer—as there are different departments.
Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.
Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.
Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first-class men, all third class, fourth class.
Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.
Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRM. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): We can see, Śrīla Prabhupāda, by the distribution of wealth and minerals in each loka, in each planet, it is meant to be governed by one ruler. One place there is gold, one place grain to grow. Is this true?
Prabhupāda: No. Everywhere there is everything, maybe proportionately in different quantities.
Hari-śauri: Is that governing that Brahmā does in the universe, he does that in relationship with all the other demigods like they are departmental heads? So he is not personally directing every single thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is given in charge. Just like we have got different GBC's for different jobs. Similarly, they are doing their duty nicely. All these planets are the different residential quarter of different demigods. They are controlling the whole universal affairs. In comparison to them, this human being is nothing. We are controlled; we are not controller. That they do not realize. The modern civilization they do not realize, although they are being controlled they do not recognize it. That is the defect. This way?
Devotee (2): Yeah.
Prabhupāda: You can see one day. If you kindly come early in the morning and stay one day, you see our activity, how nicely we are doing. And then do the needful.
Director: I don't come here as a person. I'm representing my department.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be...
Director: The fact what you convince me or not is... our society should,... I can only say that we're dealing with very poor people. We tell them what you're doing, and perhaps something can be combined. Or I can say to the minister that it emerged and it goes on from there. And I can go back to my other duties.
Prabhupāda: Then they can give us some contribution per capita for taking care. Then we can invite. We can increase the accommodation. Now we are doing. We have no business, no income. We are selling our books. So our income is limited. Still we invite anyone, come. But if government encourages us, then we can increase the program.
Prabhupāda: It is above politics.
Director: From your point of view, but we in the department depend on political decisions.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the department means they are another set of...
Director: Yes, that's just an instrument, for public will. The minister is elected according to public will...
Prabhupāda: Because they have made a department, just like your... what is the department?
Devotee: Social welfare.
Prabhupāda: Social welfare. So if they find social welfare, why not help? Why they bring politics? If actually there is social welfare here, why they should not support it?
Director: Yeah, well you're right. But in our society, minister is elected to carry out certain policies—not what he wants but what the people have voted. And they are taxed to support this.
Prabhupāda: If your policy is social reformation...
Devotee: That's the cause of this whole problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the welfare department is for that purpose only.
Devotee: And he's the head of the department.
Prabhupāda: He also does the same thing. He does not know how to cure it.
Devotee: He said that "I could not live without illicit sex life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mostly the bachelor daddy. They pose themself as bachelor, but they are having at least three times sex with contraceptive method, you see. This is going on. And they are accepted as standard. And if you want to reform it, then it is (indistinct). The whole basic wrong is they have become godless animals, that's all. The only method is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other second method. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. You cannot raise anybody to high qualities unless he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is a subtle fact. And example is there. Because some of them have taken to Kṛṣṇa conscious they are ideal. All others, what is the value? He is a leader, and he says, "Yes, illicit sex is all right. We are enjoying by contraceptive method." If the leaders do something wrong, the others will follow. (to devotee:) I think you should continue as a gṛhastha for the time being.
Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...
Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture—everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: The advancement of knowledge in any department, that is very good. But what is the aim? The aim is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Just like you are lawyer. You gave us help in some difficulty time. Why? Because you wanted to continue glorification of the Lord, that "These men are doing nice. Why they should be harassed?" So that means you helped glorification of the Lord. So that's your success as a lawyer. So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect.
Harikeśa: So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kīrtana for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Harikeśa: And they said, "Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here."
Prabhupāda: So in that way, if they understand, that is good.
Harikeśa: That seemed to be the only way they'll understand.
Siddha-svarūpa: So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.
Harikeśa: Also they loved prasādam.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying saṅkīrtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying saṅkīrtana?" That is already their problem, another, that "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study.
Prabhupāda: And it is increasing. Perhaps in the next two months we shall increase another seventeen books. There are seventeen books pending to be published. They have not done. So I am sitting here to see that this is published within two months. So therefore they are working day and night, the editorial department, printing department. They have got very nice arrangement for working.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Dāmodara Prabhu has taken these tests already, and maybe he can explain a little.
Prabhupāda: Test? What is that?
Dharmādhyakṣa: He's taken these psychological tests that Dr. Gerson is giving, Dāmodara Prabhu. He has already...
Prabhupāda: Who has tested?
Dāmodara: I was tested by Dr. Gerson and by his assistant.
Prabhupāda: So what did you find in him?
Prabhupāda: But we don't follow that process. We follow one standard knowledge. That is Kṛṣṇa. That is our distinction between the ordinary scholars and our... And we are on the safe side because we don't manufacture, speculate. That is troublesome. If I have to defeat you, then I will have to speak so many things. I will have to find out the device how can I defeat you. But we have got one standard knowledge. I may be fool, rascal, but we repeat Kṛṣṇa. So our method is very easy. We are challenging everyone. Just like there are many scientific disciples. So I am not a science man. I have never studied science. But scientists, they are becoming my disciple. From material point of view, I have no education in science, but why the scientist is becoming my disciple? Is he becoming fool? After taking his doctorate title, he is becoming fool so that he is accepting me as spiritual master? Therefore the Vedic injunction is correct when it says, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātam bhavanti. "If you know Kṛṣṇa perfectly well, then you know everything well." That is the Vedic injunction. So unless you know Kṛṣṇa well, your knowledge is imperfect. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). Veda means knowledge. So there are different departmental knowledge. So Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvaiḥ. All departmental knowledge, when they come to the understanding of Kṛṣṇa, then it is perfect. So long he does not come to Kṛṣṇa, he is imperfect.
Bahulāśva: Now we can change that, Śrīla Prabhupāda, with this college. We can get our men in all religious departments.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our duty, to give them knowledge. The knowledge is there. The candidates are there. Only the guardians should be sane, that "Save the children." Otherwise they will produce only hippies. That's all. (break) So long you will work on the mental plane, then the tendency will be that "Let me refute you, and I become prominent." And he will think that "Let me refute him. I become." This business will go on. But there will be no end of philosophy. So what is the use of such philosophy, simply continually go on mentally speculating, no conclusion? Philosophy means, "Here is the conclusion."
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Māyāpur you were speaking about you wanted Māyāpur to become a college for the University of Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: No, why Māyāpur? Everywhere. The whole educational system should be changed.
Bahulāśva: We should take it over.
Prabhupāda: Not changed. At least this will remain as a departmental knowledge.
Bahulāśva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible to make wholesale change, but at least let them accept this Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a departmental knowledge.
Bahulāśva: We were wondering if Ravīndra-svārupa could come and help on this project. Because if we can get established in Berkeley first... It's such a big university.
Prabhupāda: Yes, do that.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Actually at the University of Southern California around three or four members of the religion department want to come, including the chairman.
Prabhupāda: So let them come. (break)
Bahulāśva: ...yesterday that Indian gentleman, Dr. Singh? He had become very doubtful when you told him they didn't go to the moon. He was saying, "Do you think they really didn't go?" (laughter) He never thought of that before, that they might have just made a show.
Prabhupāda: No. If we believe in our Bhāgavata, they have not gone. It is above the sun planet, 1,600,000 miles above. How they can go?
Bahulāśva: Śrīla Prabhupāda, at night, when we see in the sky that moon, that is the same moon that is above the sun?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And we say, "No prostitution." (break) ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatīrtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmānanda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business. "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization.
Dharmādhyakṣa: And this is Dr. John Pore. He is the chairman of the religion department at the University of Southern California, and he has written a few books called "The Radical Suburb" and "Ethical Choice," and his academic interest is in ethics and religion and culture and education in public policy. And this is Dr. Crossley back here, also from the University of Southern California. He has a doctor of theology, and he is interested in modern theology. He's written many articles on modern theologians...
Prabhupāda: Then why modern theology? (laughter) Is God modern?
Dr. Crossley: No, but one can't do all theologians, one can't do every theologian.
Prabhupāda: No, "theo" means God, is it not?
Dr. Crossley: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And theology is science of God. So what is that science? You are trying to understand God, or you know God; you are going to abide by God's dictation. First of all, two things: you do not know God; you are trying to find out God. I think this is not theology; it is theosophy. Those who are trying to find out God by speculation, they are theosophist. And theologist means one who knows God and abides by his order. Just like we know government and we accept the government's law and abide by it. That is good citizenship. And those who have no government, they are trying to find out some good system of government, and that is another thing. So what is your position? You know God or you are trying to find out God? What is the theologician's position? That is my question.
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand this. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam: "I am expanded by My energy everywhere." So the everywhere how you can go? You love Kṛṣṇa, and your love will go everywhere. You pay tax to the government, and the tax is distributed in so many departments. So it is not your business to go every department and pay tax. Pay to the treasury of the government; it will be distributed. This is intelligence. And if you say that "Why shall I pay to the treasury house? I shall pay the this department, that department, that department, that department," you can go on, but it will never be sufficient, neither complete. So you may love humanity, but because you do not love Kṛṣṇa, therefore you do not love the cows; you send them to slaughterhouse. So your love will remain defective. It will never be complete. And if you love Kṛṣṇa, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love.
Dr. Judah: Would you explain the other side of it, the fact that, of course, the Bhagavad-gītā was, has its setting on a battlefield in which Kṛṣṇa enjoins Arjuna to go out and fight his kinsmen because it is his duty as a kṣatriya.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; you must fight. But that does not mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the kṣatriyas are required to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers, that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing. Government has other departments also.
Dr. Judah: Yes. And I've been trying to get the particulars up in Berkeley concerning certain possibilities and I, of course, wrote to the...
Prabhupāda: No, it is possibility. Just like you have got this religious section, similarly, we can have Vedic theological section. That's all. It is a section department.
Dr. Judah: The idea of the college that you have in mind, is this going to be an all-around college, in other words teaching not only, you might say, Vaiṣṇavism, but also English and the other subjects?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Dr. Judah: In other words, a liberal arts college with a religious section in it.
Prabhupāda: No. Just like your association is graduate. So you accept graduates to the Union?
Dr. Judah: Well, will this be...
Prabhupāda: Just like law college. Law college, one joins after graduation.
Dr. Judah: Yes, well, I do, I... As I say, as I said last night...
Prabhupāda: No, you have got that mentality, I know that. But because you are president or chairman of that center... What is that? Union.
Dr. Judah: I'm chairman of the department of the history and phenomenology of religion.
Prabhupāda: So who is the chairman of this union?
Dr. Judah: I'm just the chairman of this one department of the history and phenomenology of religion.
Prabhupāda: That's... Then you are also important officer. So you can induce them, that "Here is God."
Dr. Judah: Well, I'm going to try to do what I can to..., as I told you to...
Prabhupāda: (laughing) No, no, if they do not take, refuse to take, so what kind of theologians they are? That is my... Here is the knowledge. Why one should refuse to take it?
Dr. Judah: When you have your temple there in Berkeley, I want to continue on chanting and being with the devotees and doing what I can to further Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, in the Bhagavad-gītā... If you take this that "Kṛṣṇa is Indian, Kṛṣṇa is Hindu, we shall not take," but the words Kṛṣṇa, if you take it, "God said," or whatever you..., so the wordings are God's. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). "There is nobody, superior element than Me." So God can say that.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes.
Śrī Govinda: He's with the Chicago police department, and he's in charge of developing their relationship with the media. And I was thinking there could be nice discussion with him concerning your ideas about stopping crime.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Yes. So I shall explain or he will enquire?
Jayatīrtha: Would you like to ask some questions or have him explain?
Lt. Mozee: Well, no, I understand the spiritual leader had some ideas on how to prevent crime, how to do these things. I might inquire after he gives his ideas. I understand you read the...
Prabhupāda: It is not idea, it is fact that one man is very pious and one man is very vicious. What is the difference? The difference is: one is dirty in his heart and one is pure in his heart. So if you keep people dirty, then there will be crimes. This is the sign that the general people, they are dirty. So you have to purify the dirty things, diseased condition. Then things will be all right. So our simplest process is to assemble in congregation and chant the holy name of God. Then dirty things will go away. So if you want to stop crime, then you have to arrange for mass saṅkīrtana. That is our movement. Gather people as large as can be possible and congregationally chant the holy name of God. Then it will be all right.
Lt. Mozee: I recognize, sir, that your time is very valuable and I won't delay you much longer. If I could return to my original purpose for coming in the..., what words you may have that would assist us, my superintendent and my department, in the reduction of crime, other than, I recognize, that the first and the foremost way would be a return to God as you said, that there is no doubt about that. But is there something else that you may know or that you may feel that you may be able to say that would assist us in a reduction less than the ideal?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already in the beginning said, that give us facilities, the authorities, to chant the holy name of God and distribute prasādam. Prasādam means...
Lt. Mozee: Yes, I understand.
Prabhupāda: That has to be trained up. Just like in your country there are medical, professional men, the engineering class of men, the lawyers class of men, similarly, you can train how to become a first-class man. The training process is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Bhagavad-gītā? Bring it. Śamo damaḥ titikṣa satyaṁ śaucam ārjavam. The... Just like you have got formula how to train medical man, how to train in the mechanical man, or different department of knowledge, similarly, you can train how to become first-class man. How to become second-class man. The direction are already there. You can take advantage of the direction and train people as first-class, second-class, third-class.
Prabhupāda: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don't go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, "If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?" That is your business, say that "If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?" They say like that, as if it is very necessary.
Prabhupāda: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. (break) ...keeping building department different.
Jayatīrtha: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...their opinion about birth, death?
Bahulāśva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished.
Prabhupāda: So why again body comes?
Bahulāśva: What body is that, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come.
Bahulāśva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. What is this department? (break) ...cial science.
Bahulāśva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society.
Prabhupāda: And fall down from the tower? (laughter)
Dharmādhyakṣa: That is part of the study, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's called alienation, why people are alienated.
Prabhupāda: Now it is very peaceful, fall down and finish. That's all. Suicide.
Prabhupāda: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. (break) ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude."
Prabhupāda: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter)
Nityānanda: Metal?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that's good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine. These rascals, they do not know. They're taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy, a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals.
Prabhupāda: Babar was father of Akbar, Babar.
Tejas: These are all Muslim names here.
Prabhupāda: It was Muslim kingdom. Todarmal is Hindu. The Muslim emperors, they used to employ Hindus as chief of department.
Tejas: Like Rūpa Gosvāmī.
Prabhupāda: They did not believe Muslims to become the chief. They knew it very well that these Muslims are not reliable. They can kill their father even. (end)
Morning Walk -- August 25, 1975, Vṛndāvana
Prabhupāda: So you collect only the ghee price. And what about others? Other, attar and sugar and so many things? That means you are spending hundred rupees, and the kitchen department, you are is collecting eighty rupees. So twenty rupees lost. Hm? So what is this business? What you are spending, you must collect also. Or balance you are eating?
Dhanañjaya: A few days ago a devotee donated three hundred rupees to the Deities.
Prabhupāda: Donated, that is all right. I am talking of the business.
Dhanañjaya: I see.
Prabhupāda: Donate, I may donate three thousand. But that is a different thing. But from practical point of view, you are spending hundred rupees per day, and you are collecting eighty rupees.
Indian man (5): I want to say, professor, that on behalf of the Ārya-paṭha-nīti-sabhā, I would like to request Professor Oosthuizen and to his department of Hindu Studies and Science of Religion to make it known to the students who are interested in the study of Hindu studies that at 21 Kalar Street we have this Vedic temple and that the Vedic temple is open. You can see and also participate in this service.
Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much. Might I apropos of that just say here that we have here a department, Science of Religion. Then we have a department of Christian Theology. We have now started a department of Islamic Studies, which will concentrate more on the theological aspects as we go along. And then, if we can find the right guru, we can start a gurukula, a department of Hindu Studies or Hinduism. And Mr. Chotari and various other members of the local community here are assisting us to find the right spiritual leader. As far as Hindu studies are concerned, we give a course here in Sanskrit at the university.
Prabhupāda: You have seen our books?
Prof. Olivier: I got a copy of the Bhagavad-gītā at the last occassion when your representatives were here, which I thought was a very well brought out and a very well documented edition. The printing is also very good. So we are trying at this university to, slowly, to delve down into the infrastructure of education. Of course, one..., in the Western society one has got to take cognizance of so many developments in the various fields of science. And the element of spiritual science certainly has been neglected. I would concede this point immediately. That is perhaps where this university can also still play a meaningful part. Of course, here we have representatives of three of the world's greatest religions: Islam, Hinduism, and Christianity. This will be part of Professor Oosthuizen's department, to try and take the best out of these and formulate for our students, and maybe for the rest of South Africa and the world that will listen, the essences of religion that would really satisfy as we go along.
Prabhupāda: We say that religion means the law given by God. So any religion must accept God. Then there is no difference. The law may be little different according to time, circumstances. But religion means dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the codes given by the state. That is law. Just like you are keeping, "Keep to the right" or "left" here. In America it is right. So somewhere, "Keep to the right," or somewhere, "Keep to the left," but because it is given by the state, it is law. Similarly, whatever law is given by God, that is religion. This is our definition of religion.
Prabhupāda: Theoretical. That is a fact. Unless there are two department of knowledge, theoretical and practical... So first of all, one has to learn theoretical. That much knowledge one must have. Then, by practicing, working on that spiritual platform, he comes to the practical life.
Faill: Am I keeping you too long now?
Prabhupāda: No, you can go on.
Faill: Do you think we're going to come right, then? Is that a possible question? Or is it just far too many people now who are purely in the body and in the world of the senses? Is the world going to come around?
Prabhupāda: They are in darkness. Therefore this movement is very important to take the civilized man from the darkness because everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So long we are in this bodily conception of our life, we are no better than animal. The animal, they keep themselves always in bodily conception: "I am dog," "I am cat," "I am cow," "I am this." If we also keep in that platform, then where is the difference between dog and me?
Faill: There is none then.
Prabhupāda: You are always with God, even your rebellious condition, you are with God. Just like a prisoner. A prisoner is always with the government, (laughter) but in one department he is kicked, and in one department he is patted. That's all. So if you prefer to be kicked, you remain in māyā. But you are always in connection with God.
Indian man (11): Lord Kṛṣṇa says, "I am in everything."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Your, this punishment condition is also God's creation, external energy. You cannot live for a second without God. But one who knows, he is blessed, and who does not know, he is condemned. But you know or not know, you are always with God. That is your position.
Devotee (12): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how best can we present the teachings of...
Prabhupāda: Just abide by the orders of God and His representative. Then you be happy. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: And material is, nothing but the transformation of māyā, is it not?
Prabhupāda: No. No. māyā means something false. Nobody makes anything. Everything is made by... Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Kṛṣṇa is the creator of everything. māyā is also created by Kṛṣṇa. So just like government creates police department. But police department is made for that person who violates the laws of God. The police department is creation of government. Similarly, māyā's business is to capture, arrest the criminal who has gone against God, capture him. Mūḍha janmani janmani (BG 16.20). Mam aprapyaiva. This is the arrangement. Nobody is independent. Everything. Therefore it is called sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. So māyā is also Brahman. māyā is also Brahman. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Why māyā is different from God? It is creation of God. Mama māyā, Kṛṣṇa says. Mama māyā. So how māyā can be... The difference is police cannot arrest the president. Now it has been proved in the law. The president, the prime minister, they cannot be interfered by the police or law. That is good judgment. If the head of the estate is also interfered by police, that does not look well. So this judgment is very nice. Therefore in English constitution the first word is "The king can do no wrong." You cannot accuse king of doing wrong. Whatever he does, it is all right.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even President Nixon had cheated on his income tax return, but they caught him later on.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not cheating. It is... The income tax department is a cheating department, so everyone tries to avoid this cheating department. That's it.
Ambarīṣa: Yes. People hire lawyers, very expensive lawyers, just to find loopholes in their tax statements.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The cheating begins from the government. They are giving some paper and asking people, "Here is ten thousand dollars." This is cheating. "I promise to pay." But when the government is failure, where is the promise? Who pays? This is cheating.
Harikeśa: During the Depression that happened. People lined up for miles. During the Depression in America people lined up for miles outside of the bank, and the bank couldn't give them any money. And even if they had money, it wouldn't buy anything.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Dr. Patel: That's a fact. If you are doing work tad-arthaṁ karma, then you become mukta, because there is no, I mean, taking with you anything. Mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like government servant, soldiers, they are killing so many; they are not responsible, because he's doing for the government. Police beats you, but he cannot bring any charge against the police. Another man, if he little slaps, you can bring charge, immediately. That is tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya. The police and military department, they are doing for the government.
Dr. Patel: (break) ...eḥ? Very good discussion we had this morning. And we thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) (laughs)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) is sufficient. If you get one man who follows you, he is more than thousands who is...
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you attend daily, I can speak daily.
| Page Title: | Department (Conv. 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 01 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=163, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 163 |