Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and Arjuna was denying to fight but Kṛṣṇa was asking him to fight. So the fighting was good because it was the will of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Therefore at the end of understanding Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna agreed, "Yes, I shall fight." So fighting for the matter of executing the desire of the supreme will is also absolute. It is not different from Absolute Truth. So sometimes it is... Just like we sometimes see mock-fighting, because that fighting spirit is there. The father and son, the little son is fighting with the father. That is not fighting, but the mock fight. But the fighting spirit is there. You cannot deny it. Similarly, the fighting spirit is there. Sometimes that is exhibited by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He wanted to exhibit such fighting spirit, so who will fight with Him? Ordinary living being cannot fight with the Supreme Lord. Therefore some of His devotees, some of His associates, must fight with Him.
Deny (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Journalist: True.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) You see. That is our test. If you have developed... We don't say that you follow Christianism or Muhammadanism or Jewism or Hinduism—we don't say. Whether you are developing your love of Godhead. But they deny, "Oh, I am God. Who is God? I am God." You see? Everyone is taught nowadays that everyone is God. Just see how fun. Everyone is God. Do you think like that?
Journalist: You know from Meher Baba?
Prabhupāda: He is also another rascal. He is preaching this that everyone is God.
Journalist: He says he's God.
Prabhupāda: He's God. Just see. This is going on.
Journalist: Do you know him?
Prabhupāda: I have heard his name. I don't care to know these people. He's making some propaganda he's God.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Woman: He's a human being. He's part of me.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He is American. He is human being. In so many qualities you are one. But you cannot claim for that, you are President Nixon. You should understand in that way. In so many respect, qualities, you are one with God, but that does not mean you are God. God is one. That means you have no complete understanding. Just like in spite of your becoming American or human being, you deny to identify yourself with President Nixon because you have full knowledge of President Nixon and yourself. And as soon as you say, "I am God," that means you have no full knowledge of God. You are insane. You do not know what is God. That very thing immediately asserts that you are unknown factor about God. God is said, "Great," but you are claiming that greatness. That means you do not know how great He is. A tiny factor, you are claiming that "I am God," without having that greatness. That means insane, insanity. The same way: if you claim that "I am President Nixon," that is insanity. Similarly, God is, how great He is, how much greater than President Nixon. You deny to become one with President Nixon, and you accept to be one with God? How much insane you are. Just try to understand.
Prabhupāda: Material consciousness means forgetting God. When one forgets God, that is material consciousness. Material consciousness is called māyā. Actually one should not forget. But if he forgets somehow or other, that is material consciousness. Naturally nobody forgets his father and mother. But if, somehow or other, he forgets, that is a special circumstances and that is called māyā, illusion. Just like any one of you who are existing, you must have a father and mother. That is a fact. Without father and mother, your existence cannot be. Now, if you cannot say who is your father and mother, if you do not know, this forgetfulness, this is called māyā. Actually it should not happen, but somehow or other, if you are asked, "Who is your parents?" You cannot say. This is called māyā. But there must be some father and mother. Without father and mother, there cannot be an existence. You cannot deny that. You cannot say, "Oh, I have no father and mother." That is not possible. You may not know who is your father, mother. That is a different thing. But you cannot say, "Oh, I have no father, mother." So this denial, that "I don't believe in God," is a existence like that, one who has forgotten his father and mother. That is māyā, and that is material consciousness. Denying God in different way, "There is no God," that is also denial. "I don't believe in God"—that is also denial. "God is impersonal, void," anyway, whatever you say in that way, that is all insanity, māyā. Maya means insanity. Another meaning of māyā means insanity. Just like when a man becomes insane, that is false. It is expected that he should not be insane. By treatment he is brought again to his original consciousness. Similarly, māyā means insanity, forgetfulness of God. And by Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment he comes to the original consciousness. He becomes a cured man. Actually māyā means which has no existence. Māyā has no existence. But sometimes it is there. Just like the sky's cover. This covering is not reality. The reality is this sky, clear sky, but somehow it is now covered. You cannot see the clear sky. So there is temporary, temporary illusion. Now, if I see the cloud only and if I say, "Oh, there is no sun. There is no illumination," or "There is no clear sky," that is insanity. Because I cannot see-under certain circumstances, I deny it—that is my insanity. Therefore you have to approach to a man who knows that there is sunlight, there is sun, there is clear sky... If you go there... You require all this education, knowledge. By knowledge one transcends māyā, or material existence. What is the difference between ordinary man and Kṛṣṇa conscious man? They are also living in this world, in this apartment. Everything is being utilized like others. We are also eating, sleeping also. But what is the difference? Our difference—that we accept that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa; others do not. That's all. That is māyā. Everything actually belongs to Kṛṣṇa. He does not know. He thinks, "It belongs to me," or "This, my nation, this, my country, this, that," so many things. He is manufacturing. And we know the simple truth, that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. So let everything be offered to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: To keep...?
Prabhupāda: And agree with you. Our surrender means we agree with Kṛṣṇa in everything, although we are individual. If Kṛṣṇa says you have to die, we die; out of love. But we are individual, I can deny "Why shall I die?" That reality I have got. Just like Arjuna was asked, "Now I have taught you Bhagavad-gītā, now whatever you like you do," yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "as you like." He doesn't touch the individuality. But Arjuna voluntarily surrendered: "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "yes, I shall do whatever You ask." He changed his decision. He decided not to fight, but he agreed, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This agreement, this is oneness. Not oneness does not mean mix up homogeneously. No, He keeps his individuality. Kṛṣṇa keeps his individuality, yathecchasi tathā kuru: "Now whatever you like you do." He says, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "I shall do what you say." So this is oneness. Not to lose individuality. Because we cannot lose our individuality. We are individually made originally. Kṛṣṇa is individual, we are individual, everyone is individual. Merging means merging in that total agreement. That is liberation. Total agreement without any disagreement. And that is the perfection: to keep individuality and agree with God in total agreement. That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of disagreement with Kṛṣṇa, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure is Kṛṣṇa. So one who is trained fully to agree with Kṛṣṇa, they are accepted as associates. Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pradadyate: (BG 7.19) after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante: after many, many births. How he surrenders? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) oh! Kṛṣṇa is everything. The Vedānta-sūtra gives hint, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), what is Brahmā, what is supreme? Athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahmān, the Supreme. The answer is Brahman is that or He who is the original source of everything. We have to find out who is the original source, so that requires wisdom. So when one is perfectly wise after many, many births, cultured, he sees, "Ah, here is the original, Kṛṣṇa," vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19), that mahātmā, great soul, is very rare to be seen, who has surrendered. So our... We are giving the shortcut process: what one has to attain after many, many births, we are simply saying is surrender to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, then do you think that the Hare Kṛṣṇa chant could serve as an intermediary to link the religious tendencies of, both of Christianity and Muslim religions?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Any religion. Any religion. If he's serious about religion. If he takes the religion as a scapegoat, that is different thing. If he wants to understand religion and if he takes seriously to religion, then he will understand. We want serious persons. Now, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, religion means creation of the laws of God. Dharmaṁ tu sakṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Laws of God. Who will deny it? Who will deny it? Any religion, Christian, Muhammadan or any. Who can deny that religion is the laws of God? Simple explanation. If you ask what is meant by religion, religion is laws of God. That's all. And if you want to know what is God, that is also replied. "The original source of everything." So one should try to understand in this way. But if one wants to remain in his compact ideas and does not want to go further, then it is very difficult. He should be open-minded and appreciating. Then everything is all right. We say, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, it is not that you are necessarily to chant Kṛṣṇa, but if you have no suitable name, then chant Kṛṣṇa. Why do you make differentiate. Every name is the same.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So His mother was feeling...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to East Bengal for teaching, and actually, the girl felt too much separation, and she died. And figuratively it is used that the separation took the form of a serpent and bitten her and she died. And when He came back His mother requested that "You should marry for the second time," and He agreed. And so next marriage was with Viṣṇupriyā. In the first marriage, Lakṣmīpriyā, He used to see her when she was bathing in the Ganges ghāṭa, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu desired that "I shall marry this girl." So His father sent one matchmaker. So when the matchmaker came to His mother that "Such and such brāhmaṇa..." I forget his name, but the name is there in the Caitanya-Bhāgavata. "He desires that his daughter should be married with your son." And Śacīdevī said, "Oh, my son is not yet grown up. He's just a student. How He can be married?" So she practically denied. And the matchmaker was going back, not very satisfied. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu was entering home. He saw the matchmaker and asked, "No, why did you come here?" "Yes, I came to propose Your marriage with such and such daughter, but Your mother is not willing." "Oh, mother is not willing? All right. You can go." Then when He came, entered home, He asked mother, "Mother, what did you do? That matchmaker was going very sorry. Why? What did you say?" The mother could understand that He is willing for the marriage. Then she called back the matchmaker. "Yes. I agree for the marriage." So the marriage ceremony... So Caitanya Mahāprabhu gave hint that "I want to marry that girl."
Yoko Ono: So what's the difference between one and the other?
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say that sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te viphala mataḥ. If we then don't take from the disciplic succession of the authority... Just like Kṛṣṇa. Now, take for example. We have explained this in our introduction, that nobody is authority. Don't care. Kṛṣṇa is authority because Bhagavad-gītā is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. That you cannot deny. Can you deny that?
Yoko Ono: Is Kṛṣṇa translated...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is authority. Kṛṣṇa is authority.
Yoko Ono: Yes, all right. Did He translate it into English?
Prabhupāda: Just hear me.
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is authority, you accept?
Yoko Ono: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Is that all right?
John Lennon: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then you see what Kṛṣṇa says. That is authority. Why should you hear anyone else? Now, what Kṛṣṇa has said, to understand that, that you have to search out if you are serious student.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): That is karma-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Why do you say karma-yoga? Where you get this?
Guest (1): "Whatever you do." "Whatever you do." It is not written that you should do the aṣṭāṅga-yoga.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that "Anyone who is always think..." Karma-yogi also always thinks of Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Kṛṣṇa within his mind. Premāñjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in the Brahma-saṁhitā. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premāñjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is... That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ātmā, are you not? That's not correct. Mind is not ātmā.
Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ātmā. No. The ātmā and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there...
Prabhupāda: Yes, mind fixed up in ātmā. That's nice. But mind is not ātmā.
Revatinandana: They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa. They're trying to kill Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That is their business. Rākṣasa, asura, miscreants, rogues, fools, rascals—that is their business. Envious. Because they are... If I say that "You have no eyes," that means indirectly I say that "You are blind." If I say that "You have no leg," indirectly I say, "You are lame." In this way, when I deny your senses, that means I am calling God by ill names that "You are blind. You are lame. You are headless. You are rascal," like that. And that is their prayer. Calling God by ill names, that is their prayer. What do you think, Girirāja?
Girirāja: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say, "O my Lord, You have no leg, You have no hand, You have no eyes," that means, "You are blind, You are lame, You are headless," (laughter) "You have no sense"—"You are nonsense." So this is prayer. This is their prayer. So we have to fight vigorously with these rascal impersonalists and voidists. When I was talking, somebody left the meeting in the morning. Yes. That means he could not tolerate (laughs) all these designations-rascal, miscreants, lowest of the mankind.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): Reason we take the name of the God or anything is to achieve the supreme happiness or...
Prabhupāda: That supreme happiness is different thing. We are talking of God's name. First of all let us understand that God's name, we have different God's name according to God's activities. Madhusūdana. Because He killed the demon Madhu, therefore His name is Madhusūdana. Mādhava. Because He is the husband of goddess of fortune-Ma means goddess of fortune-therefore He is Mādhava. All the names you analyze. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also the name of God because He is all-attractive. Now, how you can deny that God is not all-attractive? Is it possible? God is all-attractive. Can you deny this fact?
Guest (1): No, there is no denying, you see, because we only know that all-attractiveness in Śyāmasundaram.
Prabhupāda: Śyāmasundaram... But the Śyāmasundaram means He is blackish, still, He is so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ (Bs. 5.30). Kandarpa-koṭi. Cupid is supposed to be the most beautiful, but about Kṛṣṇa it is stated that:
- veṇuṁ kvaṇantam aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ
- barhāvataṁsam asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam
- kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- (Bs. 5.30)
Veṇuṁ kvaṇantam: He is playing on flute. Aravinda-dalāyatākṣaṁ: His eyes are just like petals of the lotus flower. Barhāvataṁsam: He has got a peacock feather on His head. Asitāmbuda: and His color is just like black cloud. Sundarāṅgam: but His beauty, total beauty is kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīya-viśeṣa-śobhaṁ (Bs. 5.30). Still, the beauty... As soon as we say blackish, we think that he... If somebody is blackish, he is not beautiful.
Guest (2): No, no, I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours.
Prabhupāda: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science—you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhilinga. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is... Perhaps you also know. Gacchet, kuryat, gadyat. These are vidhilinga. Vidhilinga means that is compulsory. Is it not?
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: He knows Sanskrit very well. Compulsory. Therefore it is said, gacchet-compulsory. Tad-vijñānārtham... Tat, the transcendental knowledge, vijñāna, that is science. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva niścayate (MU 1.2.12). Eva is niścayate. Eva means certainly. And again gacchet, "must go." Now, just like to be educated, one must be admitted in a school, must be. Now, what kind of school he has to select, that is another thing, but he must. That's a fact. Similarly, you have to accept a guru. Now, whom you will accept a guru, that is another thing. But you have to do it. That is the injunction of all śāstras. Vedic process is like that. This upanayana, the sacred thread, upanayana. Upa means near, and nayana means bringing. Anayanam, coming or going, like that, nayanam. So "to go near the spiritual master," upanayana.
Prof. Kotovsky: Here is the basic...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is allowed.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...projecting (?).
Prabhupāda: That is allowed. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34), paripraśnena sevayā.Paripraṣna, argument, is allowed, but not with a challenging spirit. With a spirit to rightly understand. Praṇipātena paripraśnena. That... Argument is not denied. But so far Vedic statements are there, they are infallible, infallible, and the followers of the Vedas, they accept in that way. For example, just like cow dung.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is the stool of an animal. Now, the Vedic statement there is: "As soon as you touch the stool of any animal, you are impure. You have to purify yourself by taking bath." Even in your own stool... According to Hindu system, if you go to evacuate, after coming you have to take bath.
Prof. Kotovsky: This is quite intact with modern medicine knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yei kṛṣṇa tattva vettha sei guru hāya. Anyone who understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he can become...
Prof. Kotovsky: Guru.
Prabhupāda: ...the spiritual master.
Prof. Kotovsky: I understand. But in generally, by creating brāhmaṇas from different social classes of society, really you deny the old prescription of Hindu script...
Prabhupāda: No, I establish old, old scrip... I establish.
Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Purāṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.
Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.
Prabhupāda: Now, this picture... This is Viṣvarūpa. It was shown to Arjuna. Now, Arjuna, before understanding Bhagavad-gītā, was a fighter, warrior. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, he remained a fighter. So we don't want to change the position. Just like you are a respectable professor, teacher. We don't say that you change your position. We have come to convince you about our philosophy. That's all. So just like the same example: Arjuna, he was denying to fight, "Kṛṣṇa, I do not like to kill my relatives. I don't want this kingdom." But he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And at the end, when Kṛṣṇa inquired, "What is your decision now?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall act accordingly, as You say." That means his consciousness was changed. He remained a fighter. He was a fighter, he remained a fighter, but he changed his consciousness. We want that. We don't want to disturb the present condition of the society. No. But we try to make them understand that "There is a great necessity of you to understand this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is our goal.
Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, the final goal of any consciousness is to change society...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Weir: This is where you can't get a feeling across by writing a textbook on it. I think...
Prabhupāda: No. One thing is that somebody's concluding that to solve this problem, birth, death, old age, disease, is impossibility. That is one school. Another school (indistinct) that there is possibility of control over the birth, death, old age and disease. So why not this school, who does not say that is impossible. No, there is possible. Just like we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says that tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaun... (BG 4.9). that "Anyone who understands Me, follows Me, he, after quitting this body, no more accept this material body but comes to Me." Now, so long I accept this material body these problems are there, birth, death, old age and disease. Then if I don't accept this material body then these problems are solved immediately.
Dr. Weir: This is what they call "Solution by Denial".
Prabhupāda: It is not called solution. It is a fact because it is followed... Then you have come to the original position, to follow the mahājanas. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Our (indistinct) is guided by that, mahājana. We accept the mahājanas, the great personalities who have achieved success. We follow.
Prabhupāda: In Buddhist theory there is no acceptance of God. There is simply to diminish, or to nullify the sense of pains and pleasures. That is called nirvāṇa.
Dr. Weir: The atheist is the person who worries most about God. I mean, he really... God must exist but he tries to deny it all. Rather like, I had a lecturer at Oxford who wasn't interested in women. He was a misogynist. He talked, you know (indistinct) and he spent all his time telling you he wasn't interested in women. He thought about nothing but women and the fact that he wasn't interested in them. His lectures were full of it. It was pathetic.
Śyāmasundara: Just like Kaṁsa!
Prabhupāda: Hiraṇyakaśipu. Gold and women.
Śyāmasundara: Kaṁsa hated Kṛṣṇa and he wanted to kill him but all he could think about was Kṛṣṇa. So somehow or other it boils down that one somehow has to become Kṛṣṇa conscious under some process.
Dr. Weir: (indistinct) even other people, not using that name.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct) It's God consciousness.
Dr. Weir: That's what I say Unitarians apparently by having so much of this in their (indistinct) in quite a different way from a different philosophy. And, of course, you begin to feel that they must be very (indistinct) because they were so persecuted. If a person is no real menace to you, you don't have to persecute him. I think Socrates and Christ are perfect examples of that.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: I think that's been most fascinating, Swami, very kind of you, indeed.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: It is very simple, you see. Actually one who does not understand what is Kṛṣṇa, for the neophyte, the prescription is there, that "You understand Kṛṣṇa like this." Because you are dealing with bhūmiḥ, you are dealing with water, you are dealing
with fire, you are dealing with air, you are dealing with sky, you are dealing with mind, you are dealing with intelligence. You are dealing with all these things. Well, Kṛṣṇa says, "They are display of My energy." And then again says apareyam: "These energies are inferior," itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, "and there is another energy superior." What is that? Jīva-bhūta, the living entity, mahā-bāho yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). So what is the difficulty? I do not understand. He is explaining everything in the Bhagavad-gītā. Simply we have to take it as it is. Kṛṣṇa says that "I am this," and if you say, "No, Kṛṣṇa is not like this," so that is your nonsense. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am this." If you want to understand, just like if you want to understand me, I say that "I am a sannyāsī, I am a preacher," and if you say, "No, you are not a preacher," then how you can understand? I am giving my identification that "I am this." So you have to understand. You are writing also, understanding like that. So why do you deny it when Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the origin. This is My energy"? What is the reason you deny it? What is the reason?
Reporter: Sir, nobody is denying. Only we are trying to comprehend, understand.
Prabhupāda: So there is no question of comprehension. When you see a snake, call it a snake. There is no question of comprehension. This is a fan, everyone knows. When I will say, "This is a fan," everyone understands it. Law of identification. Kṛṣṇa is identifying Himself, that "This is my energy."
Prabhupāda:
- (yasyātmā buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke)
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijyadhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
So the world is under the bodily concept of life, so they are thinking that "We are Americans," "Indians." This is the disease. So they are described as animals, go-kharaḥ. Go means cow; kharaḥ means ass. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to save them from this animal consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means real consciousness, and without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, just animals. Therefore that Prahlāda Maharaja said,
- sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā
- deha-yogena dehinām
- sarvatra labhyate daivād
- yathā duḥkham ayatnataḥ
Dehātma-buddhi. So long we are under the concept of this body, that "I am this body," his business is sense gratification, because this body means senses. We have got varieties of senses. So the bodily concept of life means the senses are dominant. Therefore, beginning from the animals up to the human being, under the bodily concept of life they're busy simply for sense gratification. Nature is giving chance, "All right." Because everyone who has come to this material world, that is for sense gratification. Those who deny to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, they are sent here, "All right, you satisfy your sense by your labor here." Kṛṣṇa can satisfy His senses without any labor, but we have to satisfy our senses by dint of our labor. Not easy. You cannot become a millionaire so easy, or he cannot be a citizen in the heavenly planet so easy. That is our experience.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So therefore your body is made out of your energy.
Bob: But when you eat the food, there is energy from the sun in the food...
Prabhupāda: No, that... I am giving the example, I am creating some energy by digesting the food and that is maintaining my body. Therefore my body is maintained by my energy. If your energy supply is not proper, then your body becomes not in proper order. Therefore the conclusion is that your body is made out of your own energy. Similarly, why this big gigantic body, universes, is not made of Kṛṣṇa's energies? How can you deny? As your body is made out of your energy, similarly, the universal body must be made by somebody's energy. That is Kṛṣṇa. (pause)
Bob: I have to think about that. I have to think about it to follow that.
Prabhupāda: Why follow? It is a fact. (Bob laughs) Your hairs are growing daily. Why? Because you have got some energy.
Bob: The energy I obtain from my food.
Prabhupāda: Somehow or other, you have obtained that energy. And through that energy your hairs are growing. So if your body is manufactured by your energy, similarly, the whole gigantic manifestation is made of God's energy. It is a fact it is not your energy.
Bob: But when you have some knowledge of God, then life is not so miserable.
Prabhupāda: No, some knowledge will not do. You must have perfect knowledge. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). Tattvataḥ means perfect. That perfect knowledge is being taught in the Bhagavad-gītā. So, we are giving chance to the human society to learn Bhagavad-gītā as it is and make his life perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. What your science says about the transmigration of the soul?
Bob: I think that science cannot deny it, by scientific methods cannot deny it, or does scientific method show it. Science does not know of it.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, imperfect science.
Bob: Science may, though, say something. It is said in science that energy is never destroyed. It is just changed.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but how the energy is working in future, that science does not know.
Bob: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: How the energy is diverted, how by different manipulation the energy is working differently. Just like electric energy, by different handling it is creating heater and it is creating cooler. Just opposite. But the same electric energy. So similarly, these energies, living energy, how it is being directed, which way it is going, how it is fructifying in the next life, so they do not know. They do not know. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is very simplified. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). You are covered by this dress, by this shirt. When this shirt is not workable you change it. Similarly, this body is just like shirt and coat, when it is no longer workable, we have to change.
Prabhupāda: Because India, the caste system is very strong. So a brāhmaṇa will never accept a girl born into a śūdra family, although in śāstra it says that you can accept. (Sanskrit) means family member is respectful. Your family consideration is very... During marriage ceremony, the family consideration is very strong. Now that is dwindling. Formerly, family traditions, then horoscope. The so-called love was not given any importance, the so-called love. As in other countries the boys select wife or girls selects... No. There is no importance on this. The father, mother will see the horoscope, whether this boy and girl will agree according to the horoscope. Rāja-yoga(?) There are some calculations, astronomical calculations, from his birth, from her birth, and the expert astrologer will select, "Yes, this boy and this girl will be happy." Then they are married. If there is any discrepancy, they will deny, "No." These were the considerations. Then family tradition. What is the tradition of the boy's father's family, mother's family, so many things they calculate, then the marriage settlement, "Yes." And the boy might not have seen the girl. There is no necessity of the boy seeing the girl or the girl seeing the boy. There is no necessity. After marriage, when the marriage ceremony is performed, then the boy and girl can see one another: "Oh, she is my wife." (laughter) "He is my husband." That. (aside) So. You can begin. Oh, this is another magazine, Earth.
Prabhupāda: You are not? That is a very good intelligence? You go naked?
Author: No. It's not very wise, provided one assumes that one is going to have another.
Prabhupāda: No. Everyone thinks like that. Suppose I have to purchase one coat. I consult my pocket, "What kind of shirt I shall purchase?" Everyone knows. But if you say you are not interested, that is different thing. But any man who is going to purchase a new shirt and coat, he considers before going to the tailor's house, what kind of shirt he will have, what kind of coat. Everyone thinks. That is natural. You cannot deny it. Whether it will be suitable, whether it will be comfortable. So many things, everyone considers. And then he goes to a storehouse and orders, "Give me this kind of coat, this kind of shirt." Why you can say that nobody is interested in that? Everyone is interested.
Author: No, I didn't say nobody was. I didn't say that nobody was.
Prabhupāda: That is the natural inclination. So if you are eternal, if your life is not for these ten, twenty, or hundred years—you are going to have another span of life—are you not interested to know what kind of life you are going to get?
Author: Well, I don't believe that I shall. But then I don't think that...
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. You have to accept another body after this body, just like you have already accepted. Your childhood body was there, and that is gone. You accepted another body. Similarly, now you have got another body. A few years after, you will get another body. So you are accepting bodies one after another. That is a fact. So you have to accept another body after this.
Author: Well, I don't believe that I shall. But then I don't think that...
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of belief. It is a fact. You have to accept another body after this body, just like you have already accepted. Your childhood body was there, and that is gone. You accepted another body. Similarly, now you have got another body. A few years after, you will get another body. So you are accepting bodies one after another. That is a fact. So you have to accept another body after this. So what kind of body I am going to get? Is this not the point of consideration? But there is no education on this point. But that's a fact. We have accepted already so many bodies. And natural conclusion is that I must accept another body. But what kind of body. Now you can select. There are 8,400,000 forms of body. So these questions are not discussed at all, but they are very important factors. That is philosophy. But modern civilization they neglect: "I don't mind what kind of body I shall get next life." So those who are intelligent, if they think that "Why shall I neglect this fact? I am not going to accept a body like a tree or a dog. If I accept a body, I must have a body very nice." One may not (be) interested in this fact, but others may be interested. So if others are interested, why this chance should be denied?
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda? The temple is calling on the phone. They want to know if you are coming to that...
Prabhupāda: No. No. It is too late. Just like there is higher studies in science, in so many departments of knowledge. It is not that mass of people is interested in Ph.D. degree. But if one is interested in Ph.D. degree, therefore government provides him: "Yes, in university, you come." That is the real facility. So if anyone is interested to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it should be denied? Why this should be obstructed because I do not like it? In big, big universities, maybe in higher studies, there may be one student, and for that one student they are maintaining four professors. Each professor is paid two thousand dollars. Is it not a fact? What do you think, you professor. Is it not a fact? Some department of knowledge is maintained, even it is not paying. Is it not? There are so many departments simply for research work because the government knows it is important thing. It may not be for the mass of people, but at least one, two intelligent class of men, he pays, qualified: "Let them have this opportunity." So this is like that. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not for ordinary man, but it is very important movement. Those who are interested, why they should be denied? It should be maintained. We cannot expect everyone can give up all these bad habits, illicit sex, illicit meat-eating, or drink, or intoxication, gambling. That is not expected. But if one wants to be for higher status of life, why he should be denied? This is not a bad thing. Why the city fathers are thinking that this should be stopped? All right, let us now... So my appeal to you, that you are journalist; you at least study this, our movement, and present very nicely. That is my request.
Śyāmasundara: This dictionary gives a definition of necessity. It says that it is a constraint or compulsion regarded as a law prevailing through the material universe and governing all human action.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Governing all human action. God knows how many necessities you can create. And for all of them the supply is there. But you do not know, you take it as chance it has come. It is your foolishness that whatever necessities may be... God knows that so many necessities can be. It may be millions types. And for all of them there is immediately supply. So this rascal does not know that it is already planned. (break) The proprietor is living there. The servants are living there. The cats and dogs are also living there. The trees and plants are also living there, and insects and microbes and snakes and rats. So many living entities in the same building. Why they are different? What is the answer? They have been given the same chance of living in the same house, born in the same house. As the proprietor's son is born in the same house, these also, they are also taking birth the same place. Why they are denied the same advantage? And if they are denied, who has denied it? What is the answer to this question? They are all living entities.
Pradyumna: You said in one place, "Man is the architect of his own happiness and distress."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is an axiomatic truth even by the modern man. Yes, that "Man is the architect of his own fortune." So as soon as there is work to make your fortune, then there must be a person to decide to give you a fortunate position. Just like in an establishment, so many men are working, but there is a president. He is considering the work file, "How this man has worked?" And he is being promoted, his salary is being increased, and somebody is degraded, no promotion, rather, transferred in some other place. So natural conclusion is when there are so many varieties of life in our presence and they are, although in the same place, they haven't got the same facility, so there must be somebody who decides on this point. So how you can deny God? Our point is the Supreme Person, the president, who decides on this fact, He is God. What is the opposite answer?
Pradyumna: They would say that you are in your position and they are in their position just by chance, just like...
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. This is sheer nonsense. There is nothing by chance. What is that chance? By chance one is becoming millionaire, and a chance, one is becoming cockroaches. What is that chance? Explain that chance. It is evasive. It is most foolish reply, "Chance." We have got this nice apartment. Is it by chance?
Śyāmasundara: It's so complex to us.
Prabhupāda: So one who does not know, it is complex. One who is in knowledge, for him it is not complex. Therefore, Bhāgavata says anvayād vitarekabhyam(?). Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is completely well versed. Kṛṣṇa just like says, "Yes, I spoke this philosophy millions of years. I remember; you have forgot." There we have to study, how Kṛṣṇa's brain is. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Yes, I spoke." When Arjuna defied, "How can I believe that You spoke millions of years ago this philosophy to sun-god?" "Yes, that's a fact. You also were there. But I remember, you don't remember." The child, just like father says, "My dear child, when you were two years old you fell down and there was a fracture in your brain." "Yes?" He cannot remember. The father can say, "Yes, it happened. You have forgotten. I remember." This is practical. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa can remember everything, vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). You may not remember. You have no such brain, you are teeny. But why should you defy Kṛṣṇa? Why should you deny the facility for Kṛṣṇa? That means you are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, He is like me." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Because you are rascal, you are thinking Kṛṣṇa is like another rascal like you. That is poor fund of knowledge. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). "Because they do not know, rascal, what I am, what I can do," avajānanti, "they think, 'Kṛṣṇa is like me.'
Devotee: A big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane.
Prabhupāda: You cannot create male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Millions. And then from millions, another millions, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. (Sanskrit) These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic television button, you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening, you see. So if it is materially possible, it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param. Therefore He is called parampuruṣa, parameśvara. Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist; your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which is no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than this—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best friend. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa; therefore He is God.
Prabhupāda: This is the feeling of separation. Such feeling everyone should... (aside:) Go on.
Devotee (1): "...from the poisonous water of the Yamunā, from the serpent Kāliya, from Bakāsura, from the anger of Indra and his torrents of rain, from forest fire and so many other things. You are the greatest and most powerful of all. It is wonderful that You have protected us from so many dangers. We are surprised You are neglecting us at this moment. Dear Kṛṣṇa, dear friend, we know very well that You are not actually the son of Mother Yaśodā or the cowherd man Nanda Mahārāja. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the Supersoul of all living entities. You have, out of Your own causeless mercy, appeared in this world, requested by Lord Brahma for the protection of the world. It is by Your kindness only that You have appeared in the dynasty of Yadu. O best of the dynasty of Yadu, if anyone afraid of this materialistic way of life takes shelter of Your lotus feet, You never deny him protection. Your movements are sweet, and You are independent, touching the goddess of fortune with one hand and in the other bearing a lotus flower. That is Your extraordinary feature. Please, therefore, come before us and bless us with the lotus flower in Your hand. Dear Kṛṣṇa, You are the killer of all the fears of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. You are the supremely powerful hero, and we know that You can kill the unnecessary pride of Your devotees, as well as the pride of women like us, simply by Your beautiful smile."
Prabhupāda: Unnecessary pride is very bad. "Oh, I have become very advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That we should never think.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Compromise means you have some material attachment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, compromise means you don't want real business but you want some money by cheating and by bluffing. That's all. That is compromise. If I aim... Just like this Mahesh Yogi is doing: Yes, God has given you senses, why should you not enjoy? You simply enjoy. You simply give me thirty-five dollars, I'll give you a special mantra. And here, Allen Ginsberg told me, Swamiji, you are very conservative. I said that I am the most lenient. I'm not conservative. You are conservative. You cannot give up your bad habits. I am very liberal and accepting everyone. But you are... Because you are conservative, you cannot give up your bad habits; therefore you deny to come to my camp. I am very liberal.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A Vaiṣṇava is conservative with Kṛṣṇa and liberal with everybody else.
Prabhupāda: That is not conservative. Conservative means unnecessarily catching something. That is conservative. If you try to protect your life, will anyone say You are very conservative. I wanted to kill you, and you want to keep your life? Is that conservatism? Do you think?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Ah. So you can understand English then. So (Sanskrit). Duṣkṛtinaḥ means... kṛtiḥ means meritorious, very meritorious. But duṣkṛtiḥ. Whatever merit he has got... Nowadays at the present moment the civilization is so mad that everyone as human being... Any human being he has got some merit because he is not cat and dog. He's a man. As a man he has got brain, better than the cats and dogs. That's a fact. And actually they're doing so many things. Just like this picture. It is a very meritorious workmanship. So everyone can do some meritorious workmanship. But when that workmanship is diverted to, for the use of sinful activities... Just like one man is very meritorious, he's planning to form a party how to plunder. This requires merit. Without merit you cannot form a party. But the merit is being used for plundering, for harassing, for so many other sinful activities. So that is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there but the merit is being misused for sinful activities. Therefore duṣkṛtiḥ. Just like modern scientist. It is meritorious that they have discovered the atomic bomb. The merit is used for killing. If you just use your merit so that man may live; that they're dying. Everyone is dying. So you have discovered a bomb which will accelerate death. Death, everyone is going to die. So if you manufacture something which will actually help my death, is that very meritorious? If you discover something that will stop my death, that is meritorious. But everyone is dying and you have discovered some machine so that you can die quickly. What is the merit? But people are appreciating, "Oh, this is meritorious." This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. Duṣkṛtiḥ, mean one has got merit, it is being spoiled for doing something wrong. This is called duṣkṛtiḥ. So such people, duṣkṛtinaḥ, who, one who is using the merit for sinful activities, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He cannot surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15) and rascal. Rascal means denying the existence of God. He's a rascal. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he's a rascal. Rascal means poor fund of knowledge. Everything... Suppose this is a country, Indonesia, nicely being managed; the roads are there; the policemen there, they're directing... Just yesterday we were trying to enter in a one way, policeman directs.
Prabhupāda: They are not my books. I am simply translating. They are written by Vyāsadeva, the original Vedic scholar. So there are now many secular states. Our Vedic idea of secular state is the government must be responsible of proper execution of religious system. It doesn't matter whether one is Hindu or one is Christian, one is Mohammedan or Buddhist. It doesn't matter. But it is a government duty to see that one who is professing as Hindu whether he's executing the Hindu principles of religion properly. That is government. Just like government gives license to so many businesses. One man is selling liquor, wine, government issues license. So the government inspector, excise inspector, goes and sees that the man is doing business according to the license. Government should not be callous that "You may go on with your so-called religion, we don't care for it." No. That is not government. Government's duty is to see, just like for example, Christians, their commandment, first commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." It is the government's duty to see that anyone who is professing Christian, "Why he's killing?" Immediately he should be punished that "You are professing as Christian and you are killing." This is government. Similarly, Buddhist religion also, ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā paramaṁ buddhiḥ. The government duty should see. And the ultimate test of first-class religion is: the follower has developed love of God. If he does not know anything about God, or if he has not developed love of God, then he has simply wasted time. It may be any religion. That is ultimate test because religion means, it has got relationship with God. Otherwise what is the meaning of religion? Any religion, it doesn't matter. The process should be quest of God. What is God? What is Absolute Truth? Wherefrom everything has come? What is we... what we are? What is our relationship with God? This science. Religion means this science. In the Vedānta-sūtra, it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā. This human life is meant for understanding the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, what is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? If simply eating, sleeping, and sex life, and defend is the business of human life, then these things are there in the animal life also. They also eat. They also sleep. They have also sex life, and they also defend according to their capacity. We defend with atomic bomb and they defend their own nails and claws. The different spirit is there. So that is not the aim of human life. The aim of human life—this opportunity's given by nature to have a human form of life—is to understand God. Nobody can deny—unless he is a crazy fellow—the existence of God. That is not possible. There must be. I may know it or not know it, it doesn't matter. Therefore religion means to understand God and to awaken your dormant love for God. This is religion.
Prabhupāda: Later on it became political, because as soon as the spiritual power, culture become diminished, the whole thing became material. So people wanted material advantage, so separated from Vedic culture. Just like Buddhists. Buddhism was a Hindu culture. But Lord Buddha wanted to stop animal sacrifice. In the Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended under certain conditions. He even denied that, "No that also cannot be done." So therefore they are separate from Vedic culture. After all these, all these religious systems-Mohammedanism, Jewism, then Christianism, Buddhism—they are at a stage not more than 2,000 years. And before 2,000 years, what was the culture?
Devotee (1): The Christians here, get money from America. In Bali, where there's many Hindus live, they convert many people by saying, "If you become a Christian, you'll have good economy with us."
Prabhupāda: And that is the Christian propaganda.
Devotee (1): Same in Madras.
Prabhupāda: In India, everywhere. They cannot attract people by their philosophy. It is show money, "Yes, come on, take money." (pause) Hong Kong also. (break) Very, many meat shops.
Devotee (2): They told me they wanted you to go in the room for prasādam. But they wanted a meeting and they didn't tell me. I didn't know.
Prabhupāda: I can request them. But if they deny that will be insult for me. Therefore I do not like to request them. That will be not good for them, if I request and then they deny, or they do not do. That is not that will be good for them. It is better not to request. That will be offense, if they deny. Or if they did not carry out my order, then it will be offense. Why should they put themselves in such risk? Generally it is the duty of the householder to offer, "Sir, what can I do for you?" Then I can request. But if, as a beggar, I request them and they deny, then that will be great offense for them. That will not good for them.
Prabhupāda: By engaging. That is our school. It is a school. If a student does not learn nicely, you cannot say, "Get out." As far as possible. But when it is absolutely impossible to correct him, then you have to ask. And if there is money, equal you have to manage some money, what can be done? But I don't think if we try our best to correct him, this ultimate punishment will be required. Human being, after all human being, and our business is to teach and become ideal ourself. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere śikhāya. We have to teach by our personal behavior. If you rise early in the morning, if you take your bath, if you sit down regularly and keep them (indistinct), how he can deny? How one can deny? It is not possible. But if I smoke, I ask others not to smoke, that will never be possible. Āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, first of all you have to be. If one is not cleansing, you shall tell me (indistinct) this way. We have to do like that. Not that I (order), "Come on, you do this. Oh, you cannot do, get out." Not that. We show him. After all, our life is sacrificed for preaching and that preaching means one should behave himself, nicely. He cannot say that "You do not do this." Just like one day in London there was some talks with Nanda Kumāra, you. He was accusing you, you were accusing him. I heard from (indistinct). So you should do in such a way that he cannot accuse you. If you ask him to rise early in the morning, take your bath, and if you do not take. Supposing some special case. I was taking early bath. Now I do not take, because due to my health.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Deki(?) What you'll gain?
Prabhupāda: Deki, yes. Simply dag da dag da dag dak. (sound imitation) But the rice is already taken away. So their labor is being spoiled in that way. They, pleasure... For the pleasure's sake, they are spoiling the human facilities. This is their intelligence. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre moha janamiyā jībake karaye gādhā. This jaḍa-vidyā, this material science, is simply a hindrance to our progress of spiritual life. All these rascal scientists, they'll deny God. That is their business. Just like you said yesterday that somebody was accepting God, and the other scientists, they thought: "No, it is insult." So already they are in oblivion. They cannot understand what is God. And these rascals are making them more and more rascals. "There is no God." By their scientific research, the rascals are becoming more rascals. And they're becoming captivated: "This is pleasure." What pleasure you will do you with. Therefore they are, they are gādhā. They are gādhā and they are creating gādhās. That is the song of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra... It is expansion of māyā's illusory energy. The so-called scientific advancement is simply expanding the influence of māyā's illusory energy. They're already rascals and fools, and still they are being made rascals and fools. So they're forgetting their real purpose of life and the whole human life is spoiled. This is the result of so-called scientific advancement.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the wrong direction?
Prabhupāda: No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're inquiring.
Prabhupāda: It is right, but when we speak that the ultimate shelter is Kṛṣṇa, that they will deny. Therefore they're wrong. Just like you are coming this side. If I say: "Come to here," they'll say: "Why shall I go to there?" That is their fault. We are requesting everyone that: "Accept Kṛṣṇa in the center. All your research work will be successful." That they'll not. (pause) Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). They'll not accept one thing, God. That is their business. (pause) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause) Jellyfish is also eaten by man?
Karandhara: Jellyfish? No, I don't think so. (pause)
Prabhupāda: They are meant for the birds?
Karandhara: Fishes, other fish eat them.
Prabhupāda: Oh, fish also.
Prabhupāda: Nature means energy. What is the definition of nature?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somethings which are already existing.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they're already existing. That's all right. But what is the nature's activities? It is some power. Is it not? So power means energy. As soon as you say energy, there must be some source of energy. Just like you say: electric energy. So there is source, the electric powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity's not coming automatically. You have to install powerhouse, machine, generating machine. Then the electricity will come. And the resident engineer. Who is the engineer? What is the machine? And then electricity, there is question of electricity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: From Gītā we find...
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the Gītā, we find that...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the... "This material nature is working under My direction."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, as soon as you speak of energy, nature, there must be some background. Where is the source of this nature? (pause) What is this meant for?
Karandhara: Catches crabs. Catches little crabs. It's used for bait.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) (break) Scientists, they are studying... It is called stratum?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Layers. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Layers. Such layers, thousands of layers being manufactured and vanished every moment. And they are studying. As these layers are, they're being created and broken every moment, so all these universal, so-called layers a few years. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is direction.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So everything is working under direction. Why do the rascals say like that? The aeroplane is a big machine. It is flying, but under the direction of a small spiritual spark, the driver, pilot. How you can deny? So as the small spiritual spark can direct a so-called gigantic plane, similarly, the big spiritual spark is directing this whole cosmic manifest... What is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Without that spiritual spark, that airplane can be operated." You cannot say. That is not possible. You prove that "Without that spiritual small spark, this big 747 aeroplane will..." You cannot prove that. Where is your proof? You have to put that small spiritual spark. First of all the pilot body. Now, within that body, Kṛṣṇa says, asmin dehe, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ, tathā dehāntaram (BG 2.13). There is dehinaḥ. There is a proprietor of this body. So that proprietor is 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair, very, very, small, atomic. On account of that atomic spiritual energy, there is working. This is bare fact. That small atomic spiritual energy is within this body, and therefore the body is working, and therefore the plane is working. Where is the difficulty to understand? Now, this man thinks himself very stout and strong, but why he is stout and strong? On account of that small spiritual spark is there. As soon as the small spiritual spark is gone, stout and strong has no meaning. Immediately all the birds will come. Vultures will come and eat him, eat the body. Immediately.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But there is a direction.
Prabhupāda: Direction, yes. That is said, mayādhyakṣena prakṛtiḥ: (BG 9.10) "Under My direction." So if it is possible for a common man like me, how much it is possible for God? That we have to understand. Now I want to go to India, London. Now everything arrangement is made. I can go immediately. So similarly, if God wants to do something, why He has to do something? Everything, as soon as He desires, everything is there. He wants "Let there be material creation." There is, immediately. This is God. We are thinking in my terms. "Oh, such a huge universe! How a person can create? Where he got this tool? Where he's got the hammer? And how he constructed it?" I am thinking like that. Because I am limited, I am thinking in my limited way. So I am denying, "There is no God." Therefore we have to first of all understand acintya, inconceivable power. Then we can understand God. If I think, "God may be..." That kūpa-maṇḍūka, that frog is thinking, "It may be little bigger than this, little bigger than this." So how you can understand Atlantic Ocean within the well? So these rascals are all frogs. So they are thinking in their own terms, God. And because they cannot accommodate, "There is no God, finish." The same example: the rabbit, "Close the eyes, there is no danger." Finish. That's it. They are no better than the rabbits, these so-called scientists. Closing the eyes, there is no God. You have to smash them by their, Tora lati na, tor śilā torna amora tora bāṇi dāntera gora.(?)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Tor śilā?
Prabhupāda: Śilā you know?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah, huh.
Prabhupāda: That is our problem. Either you become rich man or poor man, but you have to undergo. (aside:) Make the light. There is switch. (pause) So our position is that we are in this material world. George has sung that "I am in the material world." Yes, very sensible song. (laughs) He's good boy, realizing, he also... So this material life is not good. Material life is not good in this sense, because you have to change your body. Sometimes good birth, sometimes not good birth. Sometimes Englishman, sometimes cats, dogs. Because after death you'll get a body that will be chosen not by you but by the material nature. You'll create your body by your present activities, and nature will simply award you that body. So, so long we have got this material body, the four kinds of miserable conditions, repetition of birth, death, old age and disease, you have to suffer. Therefore, this human life should be utilized in such a way that we do not become subject to these four tribulations, birth, death, old age and disease. That is perfection. But people are not given that chance, the modern education, modern civilization. They've no knowledge; they do not know that there is life after death, although it is a simple fact. Just like in our present existence we have got past, present and future. Just like you are young man, you have your past. You are a child, or a boy, now that is past. Present, you are young man, and in future you are expecting to become old man. So as you have got past, present and future, similarly, I'm old man, I've got my past life, why not future? What is the reason to deny it? Past, present, future, that is the time calculation. I had my past, I've now present, and why is my future? They do not care for the future. They're so blind. There must be future. So what I'm doing for the future? Just like in this life we collect some money, keep in the bank balance so that in future, old age, I may not be in difficulty. Similarly, what a human being should do for his future life? That he does not know, although past, present, future is there. So this is foolishness.
Mukunda: The last thing they said on the program was, "Perhaps this will give us something to think about for a long time."
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly.
David Wynne: It must.
Śyāmasundara: No one could deny. They had never seen such a colorful parade, so full of festivity. (Someone walks up to Prabhupāda.)
Prabhupāda: Oh, I could have gone there. All right. (Sound of washing hands in bowl.) Yes. So I am very glad that you have come and you have taken prasādam. Very nice.
David Wynne: Thank you, sir.
Prabhupāda: And we had very good talks also. I'm very glad.
Śyāmasundara: I'm hoping George will come tomorrow. He has indicated he would come Tuesday.
Prabhupāda: There is basin. You can wash your hands. Wash the dishes.
Śyāmasundara: Then understand the universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Before understanding, trying to understand God by His universe.
David Wynne: And science almost denies the existence of God in order to exist, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: That is a rascal. These rascals say like that. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is rascal number one. Immediately. And anyone, he may be a great scientist or philosopher, let him come. If he says that "I don't believe in God," then I shall prove that "You are rascal number one." That I shall prove.
Śyāmasundara: We'll bring you some scientists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientists, psychologists, philosophers came to me.
David Wynne: But the greatest scientists have..., are the humblest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge, when one becomes humbler: "Oh, God is so great." That is real scientist. I think Professor Einstein, he admitted.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent, this is intelligent.
Guest (3): "...if there's a greater association." And that really led me to India, and say, "Well, in India I would have more of these spiritual things and more of that atmosphere, environment." And, well, you know, that particular incident really struck me.
Prabhupāda: No, you can attend here. You remain here.
Guest (3): And, you know, it was the first time she saw a sat-saṅga, first time in her life.
Prabhupāda: No, no, the wonderful thing is that this is a method of spiritual realization which attracts even a child. Unless one denies to be attracted, everyone is attracted. Even a child, even a dog. This is the... Therefore it is universal. Unless you deny to accept it, attraction is for everyone. If the child is innocent, he immediately exhibits his attraction.
Guest (3): I was really surprised when she said that, you know.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I have seen many. As soon as there is chanting and dancing, small children, automatically they do like this. Automatically. They dance. We have got many children. They dance, they chant. And they fall down and murmurs all the mantras. What is his name?
Satsvarūpa: Bhakta Viśvareta.
Guest (9): We cannot give him cup of tea.
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot give, that "I have no tea. You take milk." (laughter)
Guest (8): No tea, now. Why do you keep that tea in the house?
Prabhupāda: But if you offer milk or little sherbet, nobody will deny it. Even if he's a tea drinker, he cannot deny taking a little sherbet or little milk or a sandeṣa or some sweetmeat or... What is that? You want to offer him something. So offer him... There are so many things. Why that particular tea should be offered. Is it very nice preparation?
Guest (9): Another tea and coffee. The people generally want...
Prabhupāda: I want things are nice, but...
Guest (9): If we stop that one, I come to coffee and tea.
Prabhupāda: They might have gone to hell, but I am not... (laughter) I cannot offer him hellish things. Bhagavat-prasāda. We are offering our Bhagavat-prasādam. Nobody is denying. You can offer in the same way. We are not offering tea or coffee. Whatever we have got, take it. So this is artificial. We can avoid all these difficulties. There is no difficulty at all.
Revatīnandana: It happened. In Scotland there is one university, Stirling University, and the queen visited there. And she was treated in a very insulting way by the students, and as a result of that, the university and those students, they were put into a great deal of trouble afterward. Of course, the queen is not supreme anymore, but she still is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am giving an example. No, officially, she is the supreme of England. That you cannot deny. If you do so, then your position, you know. Similarly, anything... "Call a spade a spade." If everyone says that this is electric lamp, and if you say, "No, I don't say," then what can be done?
Student (3): We can see an electric lamp, but we can't see Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that... That is... You have to see through the śāstra. śāstra-cakṣuṣā. Just like you see the sun just like a disc, but when you go through the śāstra, authorized books, you understand that it is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So what is the value of your seeing? Why do you believe you're seeing so much? Your all seeing is defective. You cannot say that you are perfectly seeing. You cannot say that.
Student (3): Well, I don't know about that. I can see the wall.
Prabhupāda: You can say you don't know, but you cannot say that because you do not see, therefore it is nothing. You cannot say that.
Student (2): We don't deny that Kṛṣṇa exists, but, well, you know...
Prabhupāda: You have to know by the process, by the process. You have to know by the process. Just like can you see your father?
Student (2): Can I see him?
Prabhupāda: Eh. You cannot see? Can you see?
Student (2): Well, I can see him.
Prabhupāda: So how you can see? Who is your father, how you can see? Why? Why you accept somebody as your father? Why?
Student (2): Because my mother told me.
Prabhupāda: Huh, that's right. (laughter) But you do not see. You do not see. So you have to believe the authority. Then you can see. Your father existed before your birth. So you have to ask from mother, "Who is my father?" And if she says, "This gentleman is your father," then it is all right. It is easy. Otherwise, if you makes research, "Who is my father?" go on searching for life; you'll never find your father.
Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Kṛṣṇa. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.
Father Tanner: Would you think it is possible to hate the Deity?
Prabhupāda: Hate?
Father Tanner: Hate the Deity?
Prabhupāda: Why?
Father Tanner: Is it possible?
Prabhupāda: No, a devotee cannot hate the Deity. How he... Then how he can serve?
Father Tanner: Because you can see the Deity as too strong, repressive, taking away your freedom, your own wishes...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of western mind, eastern mind. Any sincere student will take to.
David Lawrence: No, I was thinking in terms of the western mind with its culture, more than of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Western mind... I, I do not find any difference between western mind and eastern mind. Because so many western mind is changed. Yes. So there was no difficulty. Two, two plus two equal to four is to be understood by the western mind and the eastern mind. You cannot say, because you are western mind, you'll say, "No, two plus two equal to five." You cannot say that. So there may be some influence of the culture, but that is superficial. When you speak the real truth, science, that is equally applicable to the western mind and eastern mind. There is no difference. If you speak the real truth... Two plus two equal to four, mathematical calculation, nobody will deny, either western mind or eastern mind. Yes. So he must be reasonable. That's all.
David Lawrence: Yes. That's it.
Prabhupāda: So we expect every human being, rational... Eastern, western, there is no difference.
David Lawrence: As you see from my plans, really what we hoped to do was to, if there was any cultural difference, to some extent eliminate that cultural difference.
Prabhupāda: Then the first thing is therefore you have to understand that "I am not this body." The cultural difference is on account of this bodily conception of life.
Prabhupāda: ...then, in future, you become a nice professor. But if you do not study nicely, how you can become a professor?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So karma you cannot deny.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, in this life, my karma... That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa. According to your karma and by the supervision of superior authority, you get a body. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur deha upapattaye (SB 3.31.1). The living entity gets a certain type of body according to the karma. And this is allotted by superior authority.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The people do not know all these things. They have no idea. They have no idea, neither... Even these things are there in the Vedic literature, they are not very much interested. And practically, in the darkness, they do not know what is next... I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He, he is in charge of Indology. That gentleman told me, "Swamiji, after death there is nothing. Everything is finished." So I was surprised, that such a learned man, and he has no idea of the transmigration of the soul. These are the defects of modern civilization. Those who are leaders, teachers, they are not sufficiently in knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Because from the śāstra we understand, karmāṇa, by work, one has to... Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, as we make... Just like if we eat little more, so by the laws of nature, immediately there is indigestion.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot deny this adjustment. So why not...? I am sufferer of my karma. So according to my karma, I get a body,...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: ...suffering or enjoyment. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Yānti deva-vratā devān pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ (BG 9.25), bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā... Who goes where—that is stated here. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ (BG 14.18). Everything is there. We can understand. We can understand where we are going. So one who is going to a higher level of life—and the most perfection of life is go back to home, back go Godhead-he's not afraid of death.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu maro vā jīva vā. It is said, for a sādhu, saintly person, either he lives or dies, he has the same position, back to home, back to Godhead.
Yogeśvara: His, his point was that only in humans do we find a metaphysical search for the meaning of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogeśvara: And that's the only difference.
Prabhupāda: The metaphysical search... Now metaphysically search out why do you deny soul in the human being, uh, in the animals? That is metaphysical. It is metaphysical question. What is your metaphysical study about the living, uh, animals that you say there is no soul? Come to the metaphysical then. You are thinking metaphysically. That's all right. But if you are still thinking like animal, then what is the use of your metaphysical studies? If you are thinking like the animals: "Where shall I get my food? Where shall I take shelter? Where shall I have sexual facility? How shall I defend?" If you are thinking like that, this is animal thinking. Metaphysical thinking means beyond this, beyond this thinking of eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is metaphysical thinking. So what you are thinking beyond that? That is God consciousness. When a human being thinks about God, that is metaphysical. When he thinks like animals about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that is not metaphysical. Metaphysical. What do you mean by metaphysical? How to define? What is the meaning of "meta"? Above physical. That means spiritual. So if you think spiritually, then you'll see. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa claims: sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya (BG 14.4). "In all forms of life, the living entities are there, and they are My sons." So this is metaphysical, or if some third-class man says that there is no soul in the animal, that is metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? Kṛṣṇa speaking will be metaphysical, or a third-class fool's statement will be taken as metaphysical? Which one is metaphysical? First of all say me.
Prabhupāda: Four. Ātma-mātā guroḥ patnī brāhmaṇī rāja-patnikā, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhātrī. Dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvī. Pṛthvī means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How can I deny that she's not mother? So how we can support killing of mother?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we think that...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, in India, those who are meat-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction. Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up to buffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this. And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because the cow is mother.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes...
Prabhupāda: You, you take the milk from the mother...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: And when she's old, she cannot give you milk, therefore she should be killed?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Dr. Inger: Anything where, something beyond reason, call it intuition...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is quite reasonable. When... (break)
Prabhupāda: Everything... In this table, whatever is there, it is created. The table is created. The light is created. Everything is created by somebody. So how I can deny this fact, that somebody has created the whole universe? If you say, "It has comes automatically, dropped," that is rascaldom. It must be accepted somebody has created. So who is that somebody? You have not created. The Americans have not created, the Englishmen have not created, or I have created, you have created, but we can understand that somebody has created. So who will be the proprietor? I shall be proprietor or the creator shall be proprietor? Who shall be the proprietor?
Dr. Inger: Creator. Of course.
Prabhupāda: Creator. So why you are claiming other's property as "my own"? "This is my country. This is my country." And we are so rascal and we are making United Nation.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And therefore I say, "Cheater and cheated." Yes. Similarly, scientists also. Recently in Los Angeles, California University, one professor, a big scientist came. He's a Nobel Prize owner. He described, gave lecture. He has written one book, on which he has got Nobel Prize, Evolution of Chemicals. He wants to prove by chemical, combination of chemical, life has come into existence. That is his theory, like Darwin's theory, that life is from matter or chemical. So after hearing the lecture, there is a professor also, a student, yes. He is also Doctor of Chemistry. He is my disciple. He inquired that "If I give you all these chemicals, whether you can produce life?" At that time he said, "That I cannot say." Just see. He is proposing that "From these chemicals, life has begun," and when he is questioned whether by supplying these chemicals he can produce a life, he said, "That I cannot say." This is going on. Then what is the... Then, if you cannot say, then why you are saying that from these chemicals life has come? So when they are caught up for practical purposes, they'll deny. And they are passing on as philosopher, as scientist, priest, and these things. Just see. (someone comes in) What is that?
Haṁsadūta: This is your visa. It's been extend...
Guru-gaurāṅga: I just came back from the airport, and they made it good.
Haṁsadūta: It's been extended up until the 16th.
Bhagavān: Prabhupāda will be here till the 16th, so if you would like to come back, if you would like to bring some friends...
Dr. Inger: Yes, I would most certainly like to come back if I may. What is the best time?
Bhagavān: About three to four in the evening.
Prabhupāda: In the evening at four.
Prabhupāda: Who is rascal throwing that ball? Who is that rascal? Throwing that ball? If you are giving that example, somebody's throwing ball, who is that rascal, throwing that ball?
Yogeśvara: Let's say someone who wants to prove there's no direction to the way..."
Prabhupāda: Rascal, if you, as soon as you say: "Throwing ball," somebody's throwing. How can you deny it? You give the example, "throwing ball," but throwing ball means somebody's throwing.
Bhagavān: The original thrower.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The motion is given by somebody.
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: What they said in East Berlin, when we were preaching, was that material nature has always been there, and life has come from matter. They say that matter is eternal.
Bhagavān: They can say anything they want, but that doesn't mean it's logical.
Prabhupāda: Matter is... What is that? Let us understand this point?
Devotee: They were saying to us that, that there is no God behind everything...
Prabhupāda: Now why not? Can, can... Have you got any experience within your experience that anything was there?
Devotee: Well, that's what they say.
Prabhupāda: They say that rascaldom. That word say.
Prabhupāda: Prakṣepātmikā.
Pradyumna: "...śakti, the power to throw the living entity in the ocean of material existence, and āvaraṇātmikā-śakti, the power to cover the knowledge of the living entity. The function of the āvaraṇātmikā-śakti is explained the Bhagavad-gītā by the word: māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why the daivī-māyā, or illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa takes away the knowledge of the Māyāvādī philosophers is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the use of the words āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, which refer to a person who does not agree to the existence of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, who are not in agreement with the existence of the Lord, can be classed in two groups, exemplified by the impersonalists Śaṅkarites of Vārāṇasī and the Buddhists of Saranātha. Both of them are Māyāvādīs, and Kṛṣṇa takes away their knowledge due to their atheistic philosophies. Neither of them agree to accept the existence of a personal God. The Buddhist philosophers clearly deny, clearly deny both the soul and God, and although the Śaṅkarites do not openly deny God, they say that the Absolute is nirākāra, or formless. Thus both of them are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32), or imperfect and unclean in their knowledge and intelligence."
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Professor: That's... Of course, in the introduction to Śaṅkara's commentary to Bhagavad-gītā, he does, it seems, if it is for him, which is that...
Prabhupāda: He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Professor: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous. Then you will all fall down. If you make a joint mess, if you go and collect something and then eat and sleep, then everything will be... Therefore I do not want to keep separate. The temple worship means there will be regulative principles, that you will have to rise early in the morning, you have to attend class, kīrtana... These things, as soon as you give up all these things, zero. Then it will be like karmīs, as they are, hard labor, collecting money, and enjoying senses. That's all. So that is the pitfall everywhere. In the church, temple, as soon as they get some nice income, then in the name of "priest," "sādhu," "sannyāsī," they do the same thing. Therefore Gosvāmīs, they left everything. That is the danger of viṣaya, viṣaya touch. Viṣaya chāḍiyā se rase majiyā. As soon as we give up this śravaṇam, kīrtanam, then it becomes viṣaya. Viṣaya means materialism. There is no spiritualism. Kṣurasya dhārā, kṣurasya dhārā. Kṣura means sharpened razor. If you are careful, you cleanse very nicely. If you are not careful, immediately blood. Immediately. So the spiritual life is like that. As soon as you become little inattentive, immediately māyā captures, "Yes, come on." Then everything failure. We have got the tendency to enjoy sense. So senses are strong. As soon as there is opportunity, the senses will take advantage immediately. Then your whole business finished, Choṭa Haridāsa, and rejected by Mahāprabhu, "Get out." Even associate of Caitanya Mahāprabhu failed, personal associate. So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons. So these are the... If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." You know this word, "churchianity?" You know? Yes. Everywhere this churchianity is going on. And the real aim is how to enjoy sense, under different cover. That is going on all over the world. Therefore it has come to that Rajneesh. Ramakrishna Mission, Rajneesh mission. Vivekananda has given preached, Yata mata tata patha, Rajneesh also, a mata. They have got also followers. Everyone can manufacture his own way of religion. So sense enjoyment, there is free field. This material world means sense enjoyment. But spiritual life means no sense enjoyment, tapasya. Tapo divyam. Sense enjoyment is there even in the hogs. Then where is the difference between man and hog? The man means the more he has denied sense enjoyment, he is advanced. Otherwise the spirit of sense enjoyment there is in the hogs. That is the difference.
Prabhupāda: That has been written by Professor Dayal, Dimock, that "Sanskrit scholars should get good opportunity, and nobody, I think, will deny Swamiji's scholarship." He has said that.
Gargamuni: Any name we have in India, any good name we have, is due to you.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is due to Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151). So you can give me massage. Thank you very much. Now you have got very, very great responsible work. I will die. You will live. Kīrtir yasya sa jīvati. But I will not die.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, you could never die. (laughter)
Gargamuni: We can't accept that.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Gargamuni: We refuse to accept that. (end)
Guest (1): ...a divine body on the sun.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Lord is not minus. That you have to take information from the Bhagavad-gītā, as the Lord says, duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). In this material world, it is everything duḥkhālayam aśāś... Because you talked of the Bhagavad-gītā, therefore I am talking on the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā states about this material world as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). It is a place of miseries only.
Guest (1): Provided this is the body.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (1): Provided this is the body. When the...
Prabhupāda: But this body you have got. How you can deny?
Guest (1): But next evolution has to be another body only, sir.
Prabhupāda: That is your expectation.
Guest (1): No. Already this, it is before us. The animals have come, and they, above the animals, we are there. We can't be the end of it. The next one is this yogic life, or a yogic body.
Prabhupāda: But then... What is that end. That you do not know.
Guest (1): It will be always unfolding.
Prabhupāda: That means it is always unknown.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But it's called causeless mercy.
Prabhupāda: Ah? Causeless mercy. His mercy is already there, but we are denying the mercy. That is the defect of material existence.
Yaśomatīnandana: Spiritual master is the mercy of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is distributing His mercy from within and from without. Without mercy is the spiritual master. Without means externally, just in front of you.
Devotee: Guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpā...
Prabhupāda: Ahhh!
Devotee: ...bhakta-gaṇe.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Impersonalist boys... (break) ...who are... (break) Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is life cannot be proved by experiments. So it is not necessary to talk about life now.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Grapes are sour. (devotees laugh) The jackal's philosophy. The jackal came in the orchard of grapes and tried to take some grapes. He jumped many times, and when he failed, "Oh, there is no necessity, it is sour." It is jackal's philosophy. Sly fox.
Yaśomatīnandana: In the Vedic literatures it is stated dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). They can't even understand a simple thing.
Prabhupāda: No. dharma means the codes, the laws of God. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says that "You give up your nonsense manufactured religion. Here is religion. Surrender unto Me." Who will deny? Any religious person will accept it. Who will deny it? This is dharma. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who will deny? Who is that man who will deny this statement, that one has to surrender to the Supreme? Who will deny it? Therefore it is dharma. You have to submit, just like the government. The government is the supreme, who will deny? Who will deny?
Hṛdayānanda: Only the criminal.
Prabhupāda: Only the criminal. And he'll be punished, that's all. The result, he'll be punished. Beaten with the shoes of policeman, that's all.
Karandhara: Some people get away with it.
Prabhupāda: For some time he'll get away. You can get away from the police custody, but you cannot get away from māyā's custody. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But a scientist will say that "I can show you what the aroma looks like."
Prabhupāda: They cannot show you, that is another stupidity. (indistinct) anything. Who can deny that Kṛṣṇa says that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena sar..., there is a thing within the body which is eternal? And what is that thing which is spreading consciousness? And you show what is that thing which is spreading consciousness. Then I shall accept you as scientist.
Karandhara: They would say, "How can we believe Kṛṣṇa?"
Prabhupāda: No, you don't believe, that here is a fact! That there is something within the body which is spreading consciousness. That is eternal. There's no question of believing. It is a fact. Now you show, what is that fact? Where is that fact?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say it's just biochemical reactions.
Prabhupāda: Biochemical... You simply do it, rascal. You cannot do it. (Hṛdayānanda laughs) You rascal, simply speak, but you cannot do it. That is our contention.
Prabhupāda: Not your experience. You cannot say by experience who is your father. Your mother can say.
Karandhara: No, but the example that I have a father can be appreciated because I can also be a father.
Prabhupāda: But therefore if that appreciation is there, that avināśi tu tad viddhi yena..., the consciousness is spreading from the soul, so you have to appreciate there must be something from which consciousness comes. That you cannot deny.
Karandhara: They say it is biochemical development.
Prabhupāda: No, but then you replace consciousness by a biochemical combination. That you cannot do.
Devotee (2): When the baby is born dead.
Karandhara: But just because they say, "Because we can't do it yet..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You cannot do, therefore you are rascal. You're talking all nonsense. You cannot do it, how you speak?
Karandhara: Up till two hundred years ago they weren't able to fly...
Prabhupāda: Want two hundred..., no, we want immediately, we don't want blank check. (devotees laugh) Rascal blank check.
Prabhupāda: Brainwashed? Why? These are facts.
Yaśomatīnandana: But we still have some basis...
Prabhupāda: If you cannot reply, you're simply misrepresenting scientists. We say there must be something which is spreading consciousness. Now how can you deny it? It is not brainwash. There must be something. Now if you are scientist, you find out.
Hṛdayānanda: That which is spreading consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that thing which is spreading consciousness?
Hṛdayānanda: So if they say it is the chemical, but they can't do that, they can't...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you put the chemicals. Just like I have sent my car, it is not running, so they know how it will run. They know. Therefore I say, "But if you do not know, you're speaking nonsense. You do not know anything." And as soon as you are captured, you say "Yes, in future I shall know." What is this? The same, postdated blank check, which has no value. Will the postdated check, will it be accepted by anyone? Suppose you give me a postdated check. If I'm paying, what is this nonsense? This is all nonsense. "Future." (devotees laugh) No future, sir. Immediately. Cash payment.
Prajāpati: They see one, Śrīla Prabhupāda. The theologians perceive when they see that reason and faith are in two realms...
Prabhupāda: This is reason, that everything we are using, there is a relationship. How can you deny it? If I have got relationship with everything, then I have got some relationship with God also. Try to understand this fact. Hmm? Have you got relationship with God or not? If we have got relationship with everything of God's creation, then why not with God? Answer, any one of you. Why you are silent?
Hṛdayānanda: Because you're right, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Hare Kṛṣṇa. We must have some relationship with God.
Karandhara: Their point is that they can only have faith in God. Their reason tells them there is no God.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of faith, it must be. Faith may be false. There must be. Because we have got relationship with everything, therefore ultimately everything is created by God.
Satsvarūpa: That requires faith.
Prabhupāda: It is not faith; it is fact. Faith may be wrong. Faith may be right or wrong, but fact is fact.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, either I talk or you talk. (laughs) He's wonderful. A sweetmeat is sweet. Either you give or I give, it is sweet. (break) ...your scientist will try to understand that "Kṛṣṇa has given us the metal, Kṛṣṇa has given us the intelligence, now we have prepared nice airship, and Kṛṣṇa has given us the sky to fly." Appreciate like that. Then your Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Actually that is the fact. If there was no sky, where would you fly your scientific advancement? And if there was no metal, how could you manufacture? If you had no intelligence, how could you do it? So everything is given by Kṛṣṇa, and you are denying Kṛṣṇa. How fool you are, just see? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Simply accept that "Everything is given by Kṛṣṇa. We are utilizing it." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Bali Mardana: Only when Kṛṣṇa takes it away, then they turn to him.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bali Mardana: "Save us."
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa wants that much, that you accept that "All facilities are given by Me," that much.
Yaśomatīnandana: Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, actually that is the fact. But that is done, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19). Those who are rascals, they do it—they will have to do it—but after many, many births, not immediately. They'll suffer. They'll have to go through so many species of life, and one day they'll come to the understanding, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: 'Everything is Kṛṣṇa.' " Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: "That mahātmā is very rare, very rare."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They will say that is imagination.
Prabhupāda: Why imagination? It is not imagination. Just like I am a man. I have got hundred dollars. He has got thousand dollars. He has got four thousand or five thousand. In this way we see comparative. One is richer than other, other, other. Then why there shall not be somebody who is richest of all? We see practically. How can you deny? That is God. Power, strength—you are stronger than me, he is stronger than you, he is stronger, like that. But if we find somebody, that nobody is stronger than him, he is God. Education, beauty, all the six opulences, you compare. Because we see comparative, so there must be somebody ideal, above whom there is no more education, no more wisdom, no more beauty. That is God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they are hesitant to accept.
Prabhupāda: Why they should be hesitant? That is their foolishness. We see comparative, superlative, in our experience.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say the concept of God is just imagination.
Prabhupāda: Imagination? That is atheism. Why imagination? This is the definition of God, that in these six items-richness, beauty, wisdom, strength, influence... So we see, practical world, that there are superlative, comparative. So when it comes to the topmost superlative degree, that is God.
Karandhara: Well, on the other hand, they say what you can't say you...
Prabhupāda: No, I can't say? Why I cannot say? I am saying, that this man is richer than this man. This man is richer than this man. You go on, go on, go on, studying. But if you cannot study, you cannot approach, that is your inefficiency. But there is existing actually. This man is greater than this man, this man is greater than... That's all. But who is that highest educated... That you do not see. That does not mean He is not existing. There must be, because the step is going on. How can you deny this?
Bali Mardana: We cannot see, but someone else can see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: Kṛṣṇa says He's not manifest to the foolish.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is... You may not have seen something, but I have seen.
Karandhara: Well, they say that's the universal cop-out. The universal cop-out is to say that God does not reveal Himself to anyone except His devotees.
Prabhupāda: That is natural. That is natural, if a big man, he reveals to his confidential secretaries, not to everyone.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. That you cannot deny because it is said by Kṛṣṇa, tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). That you cannot deny. He has accepted another body. What kind of body he has accepted... If you want to suggest, that is also given in the Bhagavad-gītā,
- ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā
- madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ
- jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā
- adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ
- (BG 14.18)
He was in tāmasic, so he has gone down to the animal kingdom. That's a fact in the Bhagavad-gītā. He has gone to the animal kingdom. Now he may be tiger or dog. That is a different thing. But he has gone to the animal kingdom. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā.
Hṛdayānanda: With all varieties.
Prabhupāda: Must be varieties. If in this inferior nature there are so many varieties, so how many superior varieties are there. That you can simply think of. That is acintya. Even in this material world, there are different planets. One planet is superior than the other planet. The inhabitants of one planet are far, far superior than other planets. Just like there is a planet which is called Siddhaloka. Here, in this planet, people practice mystic yoga for getting so much wonderful power. They are naturally... Here also we see. Just like if I want to fly I cannot. But another small bird, he'll fly. Is it not? I... If I have to live within the water, I have to make so much arrangement. But a small fish is in the big ocean; he's living there. Yes. So... But because one bird is flying in the sky without any machine, it does not mean that he has become superior to me. But comparatively I see it has got superior power. So these varieties are there. You cannot deny it. So similarly, as in this planet we are trying to get some mystic power by yoga practice, there, in other planets, it is automatically there. They do not require any machine from going one planet to another. They can simply, by will, they can go. Even in this yog... in these material planets, this planet also, there are yogis. They take early in the morning bath in four places, at Jagannātha Purī, at Rāmeśvaram and what is called, Haridvar?
Devotee: Benares.
Prabhupāda: What is, machine, it is called?
Devotee: It is sand cleaner, it cleans the sand.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, this machine is working to keep this beach very clean. So we can understand that there is some management behind this. Similarly, the nature is working so nicely. How we can deny that behind this there is a system of management? How we can deny it? (break) ...things are going on very nicely. The sun is rising exactly in time, the moon is rising exactly in time, the water is flowing in its own orbit. It does not violate. So if things are going on so nicely, how you can deny that "There is no management behind it"? How you can deny it? It is very natural to understand immediately. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that "What you are speaking that nature is doing, yes, nature is doing, but under My direction." Just like the machine. Take it as nature. The machine is working, but the driver is there. Without the driver, how the machine can simply work? (break) ...life is meant. That is Vedic instruction, to know that management, who is the supreme manager. That is human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Otherwise animal life. (break)
Prajāpati: In the last World War there was a very famous German propagandist named Goebbels who wrote that if one controls the communications, the media, the radio and television, newspapers, like this, he actually controls what people think. So we've not put so much emphasis on that so far in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, actually controlling the linkage of communication. In the future should we be more and more concerned with that?
Prabhupāda: What is that future? What do you want to do in future?
Prajāpati: Actually permeate all the media with Kṛṣṇa consciousness propaganda, not simply just writing but actually all aspects of...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can take advantage of all this media. That we are doing. Just like we are taking advantage of this microphone. We are not rejecting, "Oh, it is material. Why should we take?" Nothing material. Anything used for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual. Material means what is not used for Kṛṣṇa. That is material. You are materialistic when you are not used for Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you are utilized for Kṛṣṇa, you are spiritualistic. That is the difference. Here we say, "This is material world." This is material world because everyone has forgotten Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is material world. So if they come into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is spiritual. (break) ...conscious people now challenge this rascal that "We are searching after Kṛṣṇa. We are not searching... We are devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and you are posing yourself as Kṛṣṇa. So show us some Kṛṣṇa's power. We immediately come to you."
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Actually, when they formed the country and made the constitution, the concept was they were basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the...
Prabhupāda: So what does...? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching, actual, what is religion. Religion means... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam: (BG 18.66) "Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me." So who is a sane man who will deny, "No, I don't surrender to God"? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that "I don't like God, I don't like to surrender unto Him," then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very... Just like a prisoner. He is already surrendered to the government. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." This is the position. He's a madman. The state arrests him, kicks him, and puts him in the jail. Still, he says, "I don't care for government." So what can be done? "We don't care for the government." Just like Gandhi started civil disobedience movement, disobedience to the government laws, but all the whole stock was put into jail and they were beaten with shoes. But still, they said, "No, we are..." This is an example. Similarly, everyone is obeying, surrendering to God. But because they are rascal and fools, they are denying that we have surrendered. This is their position, madness. nobody can stay without surrendering to God. It is not possible.
Yaśomatīnandana: One who is learning by seeing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience. But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..." Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition.
Prajāpati: As soon as we define what demoniac civilization is, then no one will support us because they'll see that they themselves are demons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are demons they cannot understand. Just like one Christian priest went to some quarters, mine, gold mine. So he was describing that "If you do not worship Lord Jesus Christ, you will go to hell." So they asked, "What is hell?" So when he began to describe—"It is always wet. It is dark. There is no sufficient air, so on, so on"—they could not understand what is hell because they are already in the hell, in the mine. They could not make any distinction that darkness is a very horrible thing. Similarly, these demons they cannot understand what is demonism. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ (BG 7.15). What is that āsura-bhāva? Not to accept God. This is āsura-bhāva. This is demonism. This is the basic principle of... Everyone is trying to deny God. Therefore they are demons. Who was telling that the medical man is considered to be first-class authority?
Devotee: That was Prajāpati.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That is the duty of the physician. If somebody comes, patient: "Sir, I am suffering like this." "All right, don't be sorry. Sit down. I will give you medicine." (break)
Prajāpati: ...what these rascal philosophers do, psychologists and scientists, they say the things that are very sinful actually, that Kṛṣṇa says and the Bible and all of scriptures say are sinful, they say, "That's all right. You may do those things." Not only do they deny God's existence, but they say that which is sinful is actually good for you: "Yes. You must have intoxication, take illicit sex life," like that.
Prabhupāda: No good man will say like that. That is the difference between good man and bad man. The same example as I told, that one blind man is going this side, and another man says, "Yes, you are all right. Go this side." This is going on. Either he does not know, this rascal who says, "Yes, you can go this side," that he will fall down in the ocean and die... Both of them do not know. So one blind man, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is giving direction to another blind man. This is going on. Therefore Vedic injunction is to take direction: "You must go to guru." That is in... Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Gurum eva, "Must go." Then he will get right direction. Otherwise misguided.
Prajāpati: He needs parents to be born at all, he need parents that he can rely on.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he may grow. That Upendra's wife and child. The child is so restless, not for a single moment. And the mother has to take care, "No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no." She requires a mother to take care.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the child is automatically taken care of by the parents.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but he does not know. Child is foolish. He does not know. Similarly, everything is taken care of by God. He is supplying food, He is supplying seasons, He is supplying lights, everything I require. But we are so rascals, we are denying Him. You see?
Karandhara: Well, they say there are discrepancies in that supply. Some people starve to death and freeze to death.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not discrepancy. Just like a mother, when the child is diseased, "Ah, don't take. You cannot take. You must starve." If he thinks it is discrepancy, that is his foolishness. That is foolishness.
Karandhara: Well, just like if a big tornado comes and kills a thousand people...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because on account of their sins. Because they do not know. Why government hangs one person? Is there government discrepancy? When government says, the judge says, "This man must be hanged," is it discrepancy? It is justice.
Prabhupāda: ...that the energy is displayed. It works; again it comes back to the original. That's all. So what is their idea of conservation of energy? The same thing.
Karandhara: Well, they say that there is no original. It never began, so there's no original.
Hṛdayānanda: They also say that there's no resting place. They say that energy has no resting place.
Prabhupāda: But that is absurd because we see the energy is coming from the powerhouse, electric energy. How you cannot deny?
Karandhara: The energy is just generated there, but it is not created there.
Prabhupāda: Generated, you simply change the name. What is the difference between generated and created?
Karandhara: Well, created means to be born or to start.
Prabhupāda: Yes, born. The child is created. There was no child.
Karandhara: But the energy which makes up this body was always present.
Prabhupāda: That we also say, by the formation, when it takes place, it is created. Just like you prepare food. Why do you say, "prepare"? What is the meaning of "prepare"? The ingredients are there, but why do you say, "prepare food"? You cannot say... Huh? What is that?
Hṛdayānanda: Before you prepare it, that particular preparation...
Prabhupāda: That we say.
Prabhupāda: So this is human enjoyment. And to go to the brothel and drink and fight and talk all nonsense, is that enjoyment?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No.
Prabhupāda: That is cats' and dogs' enjoyment. We must enjoy like human being. Enjoyment is not denied. Why should we deny?
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will more of a desire to live simply.
Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: The food and the sand looks exactly the same. So how they are immediately able to tell which is which?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just see their intelligence. You are very much proud of your intelligence. Just see their intelligence. Everyone is intelligent. Therefore actual intelligence is he who knows Kṛṣṇa. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. He has got intelligence. You cannot deny that. But he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect. You have got intelligence; you can understand Kṛṣṇa. So if you don't use your intelligence for understanding Kṛṣṇa, you are nothing but cats and dogs. Kṛpaṇa. They are called kṛpaṇas. Kṛpaṇa means miser. One has got money, but he does not know how to utilize it. He is called kṛpaṇa, miser. They are so rascal that they cannot conceive that there is something as God and He can be known. Hopeless. That is the real point. Otherwise why so many scientists are...? They know, "This is idea only. There is nothing like God. So let us put our theories." That's all. That is your business, theology. They are so rubbish. That was the first publication in (the Village) Voice paper. They wrote when I first began in 1965 that "We thought that God is dead, but Swamiji has brought God with kīrtana." They admitted this. I think the paper, you have got copy. You can see it. It said exactly like this, that "We thought God is dead, but here we see, Bhaktivedanta Swami has brought God in kīrtana." That's it.
Prajāpati: But would it be a good proposition to present Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy in such a systematic way?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you do it. Do it. That is intelligence. Here is the only systematic way to understand God. You simply try to understand the first verse of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Then everything is explained there. Now you can... I have explained that, what is meant by God. God means the source of everything. Where is that theologician who can deny it? The first proposition is "God is that which is the source of everything." Now the next question will be, "What is that source, animate or inanimate?" Just like the scientists, they are claiming matter. This should be discussed. Then you come to the conclusion, "He must be animate." Then next question is "Wherefrom the animation came?" Then the conclusion should be that "He is self-sufficient. There is no need of cause." Then "Why people cannot understand?" That answer is that "Even great, great personality like Brahmā, Indra, they also bewildered." In this way, everything is there in that verse, systematical. Yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā. Now this material world is also creation of God, but it is shadow; it is not reality. The reality is where there is no illusion, and that is spiritual kingdom. That is the place of God.
Prabhupāda: Another rascal is buying. We are not buying. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇam, spotless knowledge, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Amalam. Amalam means without any spot. (break) ...of God is given in the dictionary, "Supreme Being." That is very nice. Everywhere we see that on the top there is a supreme being, just like in your state, the president. So why not this big government, a Supreme Being? Where is the difficulty? Without something supreme, controller, things cannot go nicely. Otherwise why you select a president? Why you select a supreme being and give him all power that "Your order will be final"? Why you do that? Because you want the government must go on nicely. Otherwise there is no need of electing a president. So supreme being must be there, in every management. So this big huge management, there must be Supreme Being. And that is God. Clear, simple understanding. How can you deny? The difficulty is that with our poor fund of knowledge, we cannot understand that how a Supreme Being, person, can create the sky, this huge water, the sun, moon. Because I am thinking, "God must be like me." A Dr. Frog. He is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean must be like this well." That is our defect. He cannot conceive that beyond this well there can be a vast great mass of water. He cannot conceive. So comparing his intelligence, he is thinking that "How it is possible that a person can create such a big sky, such big, huge...?" Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). This earth, so big, huge quantity of earthly planet. So not only one. Millions. And then water, then fire, then... He cannot conceive. He is thinking that "If there is God, He must be like me. So I cannot do this. Therefore there is no God." The same, "Yes. I close my eyes. Then there is no enemies." That's all.
| Page Title: | Deny (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 23 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=85, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 85 |