Prabhupāda: And the, that landlady, she has no fever practically, 99, so there is no anxiety." But the landlady became angry, that "This doctor is useless. I am the landlady. I have got 99, and my maidservant 105. And maidservant should have 98. I should have 110!" (laughter) This is the mentality. The modern civilization is trying to increase the degree of fever to 110 degrees. And, you know, as soon as the degree comes to 107 it is death. Do you know that? If the fever increases to hundred and... Therefore as soon as the high fever is there, the doctor try to decrease it by icebags and so many things because to come to the fever degree, 107 or 8, means immediate death. So the modern civilization, they are trying to increase the degree of material fever, and they have come to the point, 107 degree-atomic bomb. Now they are going to die. You see? The American atom bomb or the Russian atom bomb will kill the whole material scientists' advancement. You see? So this is the... So, and devotees, they want to decrease the fever. Decrease the fever. Therefore the highest, ideal life, according to Vedic civilization: brāhmaṇas, Vaiṣṇava. They decrease their demands of the body. Minimum demand. You see? There is amongst the brāhmaṇa, not now, in the Vedic system, the uñca-vṛtti. It is called uñca-vṛtti.
Degree (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Śuṣka-vairāgya means simply renunciation without assimilation. Māyāvādī sect, Śaṅkara sect, they have got stringent laws for renunciation. But Vaiṣṇavas, they have no stringent law. They accept everything as Kṛṣṇa-prasādam, actually offering Kṛṣṇa, working for Kṛṣṇa, living for Kṛṣṇa. This is the best use. My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "The best use of a bad bargain." Everything in Kṛṣṇa relationship. That is yukta-vairāgya. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Vairagya means detachment. So when we are attached to Kṛṣṇa, automatically we are detached to māyā. Not artificially we want to be detached from māyā. Just like theoretically I know that I am not this body, but the bodily necessities are there because I am encaged in the body. Therefore the bodily necessities-eating, sleeping, mating, defending-should be done in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Then it is all right. Then my consciousness is always in Kṛṣṇa, and I am detached to my bodily demands. And those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, their bodily demands is on the materialistic platform. They are going on, increasing the degree of fever and coming to the 107 degree. You are also going tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very common sense. Suppose if somebody wants to land on your country, America. You do not allow. There are so many restrictions, visas, passport, and immigration. And how do you expect to land there, all of a sudden there? They are so intelligent and their duration of life so long. They are far advanced in knowledge. Everything they're advanced. So you cannot expect in that way to land there. This is common sense affair. Besides that, the scientists also agree that the temperature there is two hundred degrees below zero, so how you can expect to land there and live there?
Reporter: In other words, you don't... How do you yourself feel? Do you feel that if the United States or the Soviet Union were to attempt a landing and their spacecraft went down, what do you yourself expect...
Prabhupāda: No, so far our calculation goes, from the books, nobody can do so. That is impossible.
Prabhupāda: The first thing is that with this body you, neither you can land there nor interfere with their business. The first thing is. The scientists say that the temperature in moon planet is two hundred degree less than zero. Is it not?
Reporter: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: Howard?
Hayagrīva: It's very cold.
Prabhupāda: Very cold. So even taking the scientific statement, how you can live there if it is two hundred degree below the zero degree?
Reporter: Well I don't know unless they intend to land at a time that...
Reporter: Well I don't know unless they intend to land at a time that...
Prabhupāda: No. There is suggestion of the scientist that there the temperature is two hundred degree below zero. I have read some paper. So if it is a fact then how you can live? You feel uncomfortable even in the Arctic region within this planet. How you can go and stay there even for a few minutes where two hundred degree...
Reporter: Yes, that's an argument based on logic,...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...and given the information about the degrees... But obviously, they're going ahead with plans to do so, and you have a transition period, for instance, between the part of the moon that is in sunlight and the part that is darkness.
Prabhupāda: That I've already admitted, that by modern scientific method if you can change the condition of your present body then you can go. It may be possible, but that is very remote.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And that I have explained several times how the tree can be upwards root. That means it is reflection. Just like you stand on the riverside, the tree will be reflected on the river, on the water, as obverted. That means that is reflection. As soon as we say that this is a tree, the root of which is up, that means it is reflection. The Māyāvādī philosopher, they do not take account of the mathematical calculation, 380 degree. They are taking account of... 360 degree, the whole circle. They are taking account only 180 degree. And other 180 degree they're making void. But actually, the whole point is 360 degree. That is geomatrical calculation. If you simply know 180 degree, then the other 180 degree is unknown to you. So real life, real variety, real beauty, real knowledge, everything in reality is there in the spiritual world. It is only reflection. Therefore Bhāgavata explains that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). The Supreme Absolute Truth is cognizant, abhijñaḥ. Cognizant and svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. In this way, the explanation of Brahma-sūtra is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yad vaiṣṇavānāṁ priyam. Yasmin paramahaṁsam ekaṁ paraṁ jñānam jñeyate.
Hayagrīva: Well, I don't know if it's that important. I think more important than that is that he develop the place. I mean actually I think that's good at the beginning, but there's still a degree...
Prabhupāda: His outside work means developing this place, but not by remaining here. He may come, remain here. Say for three months he remains, and again he goes three months outside. Again he comes one month. Why three months? One month here, again goes out. Two months outside, again comes. He sees how things are going on. He can suggest, "You do like this. You can do like this." And you execute with your assistance. Will not that be nice? He gives your suggestion that "You should..." He can give yourself that "You burn this tree." But if you like, you can burn. Otherwise you don't burn.
Prabhupāda: So therefore attraction for any flower is not the solution of the question. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Absolute. Anyone wants Him in any way, He also presents Himself in that way. Just like the same example. If you want a yellow flower, never mind whether there is any scent or any flavor or not, so that flower is there. It is for you. That's all. But if anyone wants rose flower, Kṛṣṇa gives him rose flower. But when you make a comparative study which one is better, then rose will be considered better. (chuckling) So ye yathā māṁ prapadyante. That means the Absolute is realized... Of course, varieties there are, but the original division of the Absolute is three: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Now, Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān is the same Absolute. Different names. The jñānis, or the empiric philosophers, they reach or they aim at Brahman, impersonal Brahman. The yogis, they, I mean to say, focus on the Supersoul, Paramātmā. And the devotees, they aim at Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, this Kṛṣṇa and the Supersoul and the impersonal Brahman, they are not different. They are light. They are not darkness. But in the light also, there is difference The example is given: just like sunlight, sun globe and the sun-god. Everywhere you find light. In the sunshine there is light. In sun globe there is light. And what to speak of the predominating deity in the sun-globe? He also must be light; otherwise wherefrom this light comes? So so far light is concerned, everywhere there. But you cannot say because sunshine has come through your window in your room, you cannot say the sun has come. That will be mistake. Sun is many, many miles away. But so far light is concerned, now there is question of degrees of light, intensity of light. So the degrees of spiritual realization in Brahman, degrees of spiritual realization in Paramātmā, and degrees of spiritual realization in the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are different.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot know completely. That is because our knowledge is very imperfect. But still, so far our knowledge is concerned, as far as possible, we should try to understand. Avāṅ mānasa gocaraḥ. This Absolute is so great and unlimited that it is not possible for us to know Him completely. That is not possible. Our senses does not allow. But as far as it is possible, because, after all, we are part and parcel of the Absolute, so all the qualities of the Absolute are there in us, but it is in minute quantity. So that minute quantity is also very great in comparison to material knowledge. Material knowledge is practically no knowledge. It is covered. But when one is liberated, liberated knowledge is certainly very, very great than material knowledge. So Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. These are the statements of Bhāgavata. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). It is... Śabdyate means sounded as Bhagavān, Paramātmā, and Brahman. Now, what are the difference or degrees of knowledge? Brahman knowledge, Paramātmā knowledge, and Bhagavān knowledge. The same thing. The knowledge of sunshine, the knowledge of sun globe, and the knowledge of this predominating deity in the sun globe. So knowledge of sunshine is not knowledge of the predominating deity of the sun globe. There is another example in this connection. Just like if you see one hill from a long-distant place, first of all you see just like it is a cloud. Then, if you proceed further, you'll see something green.
Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is composed of four different stages. The first stage is to understand the relationship with Godhead, or Kṛṣṇa. Because the conditioned souls at the present moment, they have forgotten self. They have forgotten their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Actually the relationship is there, eternal, but under the influence of māyā he is thinking that "I am something of this material world," identifying himself with this body. So we have to awake them from that illusory existence, what he is not. The whole mistake of the modern status of life... I don't say modern civilization. This is coming up since the creation of this material world. Sometimes it is in greater degree and sometimes in lesser degree. In Satya-yuga the same condition, but in lesser degree. But in Kali-yuga the condition is in greater degree. So the first business is to awake the conditioned souls from their illusory position, that he is thinking, "I am this body and anything in relationship with this body is very important." Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is illusion. We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother." Similarly father, similarly sons. In this way, country, society, at the most, humanity. That's all. But all these things are illusion because they are in bodily relationship. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13).
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Where is my stick? Give me a glass of water. (break)
Guest (6): I am ready to pay installments.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no problem. You come and join me. If you want...
Guest (6): Let me get degree.
Prabhupāda: You get your degree. That's all right. Finish your education. If I'll be able to open a center, nice center, I shall call so many people, "Come and live with me and be trained up." I am just writing one advertisement. We shall have to publish it. Just read it.
Haṁsadūta: "Wanted: qualified brāhmaṇas for preaching Bhagavad-gītā all over the world. (laughter) Candidates accepted without any discrimination of caste and creed. Apply ISKCON."
Yamunā: Oh, ho, ho, Prabhupāda!
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (1): What I was, missing me was in this degree, that just like here, people, why we are, we got the news in our senses, our mind sees or perceives...
Prabhupāda: These are living, symptoms of living condition.
Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no question of Western-Eastern.
Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don't say have made it, but yet because there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are...
Prabhupāda: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way—Western-Eastern... There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity.
Prabhupāda: That is... That I am going to explain, that... That is one line: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya-grāhyam (BG 6.21). This sukham ātyantikaṁ is being searched both by the Western, Eastern, everyone, even cats, dogs, everyone. But the cats and dogs, animals, they cannot adjust what is that ātyantikaṁ sukham. But human being can. So human being, there is no question of Eastern and Western. It is a question of degree only. But actually everyone is searching after that perpetual happiness. So it is a problem for everyone, and that problem can be solved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (1): By?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the..., I mean to say, a rough scheme, rough estimation. Now, how Kṛṣṇa consciousness can solve this problem, that is a detailed thing. But this is a fact. It is not the question of Eastern-Western. It is the problem of all living entities.
Prabhupāda: "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava-viraktir anyatra syāt. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter. We want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one, a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another. Because his aim is education.
Dr. Weir: But if you accept its existence then it's present in everybody. Exactly what you're saying. Whether they utilize it, whether, as you call it, uncovered, or to the degree to which they are conscious of it, is a different thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness.
Dr. Weir: That's where your line is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indivisible as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive(?).
Prabhupāda: But there is the summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution(?). That evolution will go on. But when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is cause of all causes. That is final realization. Unless one comes to that point he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence.
Śyāmasundara: Rationally, I was thought to be intelligent. I went to college, got so many degrees, but I could not in the least control my senses and control my mind, even though I tried. I studied philosophy so hard. But, by simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and coming to the platform of service for God, all my activities became dovetailed in one direction so that the other things were automatically brought under control as a result.
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). The exact word is there that if one gets good engagement, he can gives up bad engagement. But he cannot make it inactive. That is not possible because soul is active. It is living. How he can make it inactive? That is not possible. Nirvāṇa means stop nonsense, but take to spiritual life. That is next athāto brahma jijñāsā. Nirvāṇa does not mean to stop activities; to stop nonsense activities. Come to the real activity.
Dr. Weir: Well aṇiman, the word many people use for the soul, also means of course, life. (indistinct) being animate. The two are synonymous.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bob: To Kṛṣṇa's ear, is praying louder than nonsense talk.
Prabhupāda: No, He's all-perfect. He can hear any temper, or any degree of saying. Even if you don't speak, even if you simply think, He can hear you. As soon as you think that "I shall do it," then He hears you. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15).
Bob: But one should pray, is that so? That one should...
Prabhupāda: That is his business.
Bob: Excuse me?
Prabhupāda: That is his business.
Bob: Listening?
Devotee: One thing I think I understand is that he is saying that many people come and become interested in our movement by seeing us. Or by—not understanding anything of what we are doing—but by visual, by the mundane, seemingly, aspects. And in his book, I think what he is saying is he wants to present it in a way that will attract that sort of person, whereas most people will not pick up the book and read it because it's a book on Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy, but because they are interested in the outward aspect of things, if it contains that to some degree, then they will pick it up and then he can present both and give them some knowledge also of what we are doing in our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow.
Upendra: By putting a label, poison, a label, nectar on a bottle of poison. (laughter) They will take. They will think he is giving them what they are interested in, even though it may be superficial. But once there, then he can present the philosophy as well. I think that's what he's saying.
Prabhupāda: No. No. It is too late. Just like there is higher studies in science, in so many departments of knowledge. It is not that mass of people is interested in Ph.D. degree. But if one is interested in Ph.D. degree, therefore government provides him: "Yes, in university, you come." That is the real facility. So if anyone is interested to understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness, why it should be denied? Why this should be obstructed because I do not like it? In big, big universities, maybe in higher studies, there may be one student, and for that one student they are maintaining four professors. Each professor is paid two thousand dollars. Is it not a fact? What do you think, you professor. Is it not a fact? Some department of knowledge is maintained, even it is not paying. Is it not? There are so many departments simply for research work because the government knows it is important thing. It may not be for the mass of people, but at least one, two intelligent class of men, he pays, qualified: "Let them have this opportunity." So this is like that. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not for ordinary man, but it is very important movement. Those who are interested, why they should be denied? It should be maintained. We cannot expect everyone can give up all these bad habits, illicit sex, illicit meat-eating, or drink, or intoxication, gambling.
Prabhupāda: You can serve Kṛṣṇa by business administration. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "Everyone can serve by his own work." Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped. Everything is Kṛṣṇa. So every department can be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. And if Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, then your talent in the particular department of knowledge is perfect. Then it attains perfection. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Saṁsiddhi means perfection. And what is that perfection? That Kṛṣṇa will be pleased: "Yes, you are very good engineer." "You are very good business administrator." "You are very good chemist." So this is our philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We do not say, "This is bad. This is good." Everything is good, provided it is utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service. This is our philosophy. So as Kṛṣṇa is all-pervading, our philosophy is also all-embracing. But as soon as one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness platform, he must be free from sinful activities. (aside) Aiye. (Hindi) Kṛṣṇa is... (aside) Jaya. Kṛṣṇa is pure, apāpa-viddham. So we must be pure to approach Kṛṣṇa. Just like if we want to enter fire we must be also highly tempered, almost like fire, same degree. Apāpa-viddham. Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. So we should give up sinful activities and apply our energy for Kṛṣṇa's service. Then our life is perfect. That we are preaching. You are from which province?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...how do you know that guru is qualified, spiritual master is qualified? Then I said everything is written in the śāstras, so we have to follow according to the injunctions written in the śāstras. So all the qualifications of a pure devotee, of a bona fide guru, is written there. Just like you are a professor of physics in the university. Before you came, you had some qualification, degree of doctors. And then there is a committee to decide you whether you are qualified for the post. So it is selected by a committee of members and then they interview and then they find out your qualifications. If they find that you are qualified for the post, so you are selected as a professor. It's like that in the spiritual field also. There are revealed scriptures and there everything is written what will be the qualification of a guru and then how to choose a bona fide one. So everything is written, you should follow the injunctions of the revealed scriptures accordingly.
Prabhupāda: Committee is his spiritual master, he orders that you do this.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No.
Brahmānanda: ...what the punishment is.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Neither you can say the magistrate partial, the judge. Somebody, he gives, "Give him degree for one million dollars." Another: "Hang him." So the judge is not partial. He is getting his money. He's getting his punishment. He's simply making judgement. He's not impartial. He's not enemy to anyone or friend to anyone. Similarly according to your work, you'll get punishment or reward by God. God is not partial.
Brahmānanda: That's another argument they give that when there's some calamity, then they say: "Oh,..." Then they blame the Supreme...
Prabhupāda: God.
Prabhupāda: So you protest, write in book. You are scientist. Write in book. Prove scientifically. That will be your laurel of taking the doctorate degree. If you also become one of these rascal doctors, then what is the use of your Kṛṣṇa consciousness that whatever they say you silently accept? No. Just become Babhruvāhana, Manipur Babhruvāhana, that the fighting is faced. Take assistance, you have got. Ask Dr. Rao to come, join. Make plan. Go from town to town, all over the world. This has to be done. There was a poetry by Rabindranath Tagore. The purport of the poetry is that one who is mischievous, he is culprit. But one who tolerates mischievous activity, he is also culprit. If you are mischievous, you are criminal. But if you tolerate mischievous activities that is also criminal. Challenge these rascals. Stop their rascal theories. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. The so-called modern leader, he is a paśu, animal. And who exalts them? Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: other lower animals like dogs, the hogs, śva-viḍ-varāha, camel and ass. So one big animal is being praised by these kinds of animals. So all the population without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have been described as dogs, hogs, camel and ass.
Prabhupāda: Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. So if you prepare yourself, you haven't got to take a machine and go to the moon planet. You can go to the moon planet. That is stated in the śāstras. You can prepare yourself. That means transfer your, yourself to a body in the moon planet. You transfer yourself for a body in the sun planet. So there are innumerable planets. And there is a planet where Kṛṣṇa lives, or God lives, also. So if you like, you can transfer yourself to a body in Kṛṣṇa's planet. These are explained here. Simply you have to adopt the prescribed method. "By following this method, you transfer to such and such planet." "By following this method, you can transfer..." There is no need of taking this mechanical... That is not possible also. It is futile attempt. You cannot go by force. Because different planets, they have got different atmosphere. So you have to transfer yourself to a suitable body which is suitable in that planet. And for that, you have to prepare. You cannot go with this body into moon planet. Because atmosphere... Some scientists say... I read in the paper that the temperature in moon planet is two hundred degrees below zero. So how you can go and live there? It is not possible. But if you want to go there, you can go there after death by preparing yourself. You transfer yourself to a body there. That you can go. So in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that you can transfer yourself, your soul, to any planet you like, but... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6).
Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes and no. I've lived in public life for sixty years. I've been in Parliament. I'm now in the House of Lords. But I don't regard myself as a great man in any sense at all.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Of course, there are degrees, but...
Lord Brockway: And I've never wanted to be in a gov...
Prabhupāda: No great man wants to become great. But because he's great, God helps him to become great.
Lord Brockway: Yes. Well, what I was saying is I've never wanted to be in a government. I've never wanted to have power. I've had certain ideals that I wanted to serve, and just prepared to serve them.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: I could mention a lot of names that (are) still very close to God and brilliant men in science... Where would we be without our scientists, without our doctors, medicine? They all have to go to university and get a degree before they...
Prabhupāda: That I say. You get.
Mother: Yes, but we need them.
Prabhupāda: You get.
Mother: Yes, well, the some of your boys could be doctors.
Prabhupāda: But simply to becoming doctor at a medical science will not save me. Unfortunately, they do not believe in the next life.
Mother: Oh, yes they do. I go to... I had a doctor who came to church—and Michael knows him—every Sunday, a very good man.
Prabhupāda: Then the next question...
Jesuit Priest: ...is the success in the next, which means union with God for eternity. That's top priority. And following Christ's words, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God," then all the other things are of very minor importance. It's closeness to God and return to be one with the Beatific Vision in heaven. That's the top priority, that's our aim in education, and that's what Michael was taught when he was at Sunnyhurst. And that he does well and gets a degree, yes, very good thing. He could be a doctor or an architect or a leader in commerce, what have you, of which all of which are essential for the well-being of the world. This time last year I was dead. I was picked up as unconscious in the corridor, and the doctors said that I had experienced... I was as near death as makes no difference. Well, if it hadn't been for the skill of the man that...
Prabhupāda: So...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Yes.
Revatīnandana: You're more intelligent than a dog—to some degree.
Prabhupāda: No, if...
Jesuit Priest: So in other words, if we are, all of us here...
Prabhupāda: Even the animal is not intelligent, you cannot kill. Because your child is also not intelligent, so that does not mean you can kill your child.
Jesuit Priest: Oh, but nobody, I'd, nobody'd, nobody'd, master, nobody'd for one second would think about killing a child.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not a very good reasoning, that because the animal is not intelligent, they may be killed. That is not very good reason.
Jesuit Priest: Oh, no, that isn't the reason. That isn't the reason why we kill it. We kill the animal because we need it for a means of living.
Prabhupāda: No...
Prabhupāda: There is one moral instruction by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita was a great minister during the time of Mahārāja Candragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book of moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction, who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. Mātṛvat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat. Loṣṭa means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Prabhupāda: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there.
Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation?
Prabhupāda: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life.
Yogeśvara: You quoted... In the course of your lecture this morning, you quoted that verse from the Tenth Chapter, dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ tam. When that knowledge comes, the devotee is qualified by some degree of advancement?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The more he's qualified, the direction comes from Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: And what is the... What form does that direction take?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: And what form does that direction take?
Prabhupāda: In whichever way. The real direction is that he may come back to home, back to Godhead after giving up this body.
Yogeśvara: Is that buddhi, that intelligence manifested in some way, in his service, or in his thinking?
Prabhupāda: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus. Because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person?
Guest (2): It's a question of degree.
Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?
Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.
Prabhupāda: (break) She's waiting? Then I shall come.
Reporter (3): Right, well (indistinct) some publicity.
Prabhupāda: No, every religion has got God consciousness. Without God consciousness, there cannot be any religion. But somewhere we find the degrees of consciousness. Just like every living entity has got consciousness. A child has got consciousness, dog has got consciousness, and a human being has got consciousness, but there are degrees.
Reporter (3): Do people lose this consciousness, the God...?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Reporter (3): Do people lose God consciousness as they grow older?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, unless a person comes to God consciousness, his consciousness is imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yaṁ hi na vyathayanty ete puruṣaṁ puruṣarṣabha. That I have already explained.
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
Just like one is in winter season, and the winter... Not in this country. In Western countries, it becomes below thirty degrees. In Canada and what other places?
Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Acyutānanda: New Vrindaban.
Prabhupāda: Virginia?
Acyutānanda: Oh yes. Thirty below zero.
Prabhupāda: So we have no experience below zero degrees. But in Europe, America, there is places. In Russia also, below fifty degrees. But they do not stop their business. They know that "Winter season has come. It will go away again." So devotees, even they are in distressed condition, they know, "It has come due to my bad activities in the past. It will go away. Let me suffer and finish it." Just like if you become, all of a sudden, infected with some disease.
Prabhupāda: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, that verse in the Gītā, that nityaḥ sarva-gataḥ sthāṇuḥ. That verse in the Bhagavad-gītā that living beings are everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes, sarva-ga. Acalo 'yaṁ sthāṇur sarva-gaḥ. Nitya. Nityaḥ sthāṇur acalo 'yam. That is described. The seeds are everywhere. Just like they are trying to come out from this. You will find sometimes fracture, grass is coming. As soon as there is opportunity, they want to express the consciousness. Those who fall down... kṣīṇe puṇye punaḥ martya-lokaṁ viśanti. They come with waters, rain water, and falls down on the ground and become grass. Then gradually, evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ā-brahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino... How subtle laws are working, what do they know the scientists? Therefore their so-called knowledge is māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ, actual knowledge is taken away by māyā. And they are thinking, "I am very learned man, scholar." But actual knowledge is taken away. māyayā apahṛta-jñānāḥ. Why? Āsuri-bhāva. They won't accept God. Therefore they are all fools. In spite of all these degrees, they are all fools. Therefore they cannot explain everything very nicely. "In future we shall see."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are saying that "We are beginning to learn more and more..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means that you are fool. While you are in the process of learning, that means you are fool. Say directly that we are fool. That is gentlemanliness. You do not know; still, you pose, "I am, we are scholar, we are scientist. Give us Nobel Prize." You see. This is going on. We don't want Nobel Prize. We are giving the topmost knowledge. We don't hanker after Nobel Prize. But they give false knowledge and hanker after Nobel Prize. Just see. Their real aim is how to get the Nobel Prize by cheating. That is their real aim. How an educated man, learned man will cheat? So therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that "This modern human society, or always, it is a society of the cheaters and the cheated."
Prabhupāda: No, it has, but it is covered too much. Consciousness is covered. Potency, potent. It is potent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecule has consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything has consciousness, but it is covered. The degree is of covering.
Umāpati: I was reading the writings of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura in Jaiva Dharma.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Umāpati: And he is explaining the word "śraddhā," and he defines it in there as the tendency of the mind towards devotion without regard to jñāna or karma.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Sudāmā: Compared to Hawaii, it is very cold.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Hawaii is very pleasant.
Sudāmā: Yes, now it is eighty-five degrees every day.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Sudāmā: It's wintertime now.
Prabhupāda: And summer?
Sudāmā: Summer's very hot. Hundred and five.
Prabhupāda: But there is rainfall.
Sudāmā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, they may say, but if Kṛṣṇa is God, what He says, that we'll have to accept, what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." That you have to accept. Everyone will say, "I am very good." But is that the fact, that everyone is very good? There is comparative, superlative degrees. Just like shopkeepers, they say, "All my goods are good." They are competition. One has to judge. That comparative study... What the highest Buddha philosophy? Ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā, nonviolence. That is our preliminary study. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). There are many other things after ahiṁsā. They do not know this.
Hṛdayānanda: There's another argument.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: Another argument.
Prabhupāda: Imagination? That is atheism. Why imagination? This is the definition of God, that in these six items-richness, beauty, wisdom, strength, influence... So we see, practical world, that there are superlative, comparative. So when it comes to the topmost superlative degree, that is God.
Karandhara: They have a system which they call scientific integrity, which, roughly translated, means anything they can't perceive through their gross senses they can't accept as being a fact.
Prabhupāda: This is... Anyone can... Any child can accept. What is that?
Karandhara: Well, they say, If there was a God, He would be perceivable to everyone, whether they believed in Him or not, He would be so obvious.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is available. This is common formula, that we see comparative study of these six opulences. When it is topmost, that is God.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Indian Man (2): They say just something like a small degree to the people, all right, those who are coming...
Prabhupāda: Childish, childish. Therefore they have been described as mūḍhā, mūḍhā. Mūḍhā means a child, they are foolish. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhāmāḥ (BG 7.15). (break) ...nābhijānāti prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. Prakṛtiṁ mohiniṁ śritaḥ. What is that verse?
Devotee: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto mama-bhūta maheśvaram. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). (break) ...says, bhūmir āpo analo vayuḥ (BG 7.4). This water is Kṛṣṇa's energy. So how can you refute it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My energy."
Indian Man (3): It is somebody's energy. That is definite. Because somebody is controlling it.
Prabhupāda: No, no, not controlling.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhāva is the previous condition of prema. (break) ...life there are so many varieties, temperature and focus of light, but actually, the heat and light is coming from the fire. So in spite of all varieties of degrees of heat and light, it is one because it is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. (break) Because original is taken away and he has to satisfy their mother, other the mothers will cry, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, my boy went with you. Where he is?"
Dr. Patel: Boys and cows and calves and all...
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything. This is Kṛṣṇa. (break) They are Śyāmasundara, but they are playing a different part in the face of their parents.
Dr. Patel: You are the old man with the (indistinct) this and you are the young boy and you are the... (break)
Prabhupāda: Her mother sent him to become a śūdra. So he had to correct it again, but he is fortunate enough that he has come forward to correct himself.
Prabhupāda: Why there is difference? (break) ...and Kṛṣṇa's power is compared. Brahmā's power is just like glowworm, and Kṛṣṇa's power is just like day sunlight. (break) The power displayed, they are of different degrees. That is the difference. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say everything is water. They give that example. But the sea water, the force of the sea water, and the water in a pot, small pot, the degrees of force are different. In England it is very common to say, "Lord Chelmsford. Lord Chelmsford," do you know?
Dr. Patel: We used to call him Chelemfor.
Prabhupāda: No. So Chelmsford is a place, is a village. But he is called Lord Chelmsford. He is personified. Like that. (break)
Girirāja: There is one Lord Chelmsford or anyone else...?
Dr. Patel: When his son becomes a Lord of Chelmsford and...
Prabhupāda: Yes, continues, continues. It is... What is called? They create aristocratic family. One has to deposit certain amount of money to the government and then the family...
Pañcadraviḍa: We have also got our work, and we show them...
Prabhupāda: No, no. How do you say that you are better than him? If they are also doing, it may be difference of degrees, but we are also doing the same thing.
Pañcadraviḍa: If a person is having love of God, though, then his love is not simply confined to his own work. You say you are having love of God; we are also spreading this movement all over the world. So God is one...
Prabhupāda: "No, no, we are also preaching Christianity all over the world. Our number of Christians is higher than your number of devotees. Our preaching work is better than yours."
Pañcadraviḍa: We ourselves are coming from Christian country, and we see that the entire society is so-called Christian, but...
Prabhupāda: Do you mean to say entire society is after you?
Pañcadraviḍa: Pardon me?
Prabhupāda: Can you prove that the entire society is after you only?
Prabhupāda: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature's way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that "Thou shalt not kill," it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable. Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Kṛṣṇa has specifically mentioned, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, that He says that "You offer Me."
C. Hennis: Well, I think that the International Labor Organization is devoted to the reduction of inequalities between the different classes of men with a view to getting them all a better share of the good things of life, and by that, they may begin to reach a greater degree of human happiness, as they understand it, as the people themselves understand it. It may be that they don't understand it well.
Prabhupāda: No. Nature's way is not better share, but equal share. Just like when you take foodstuff, put it in the stomach, and when it is easily digested and transformed into different secretion and comes to the heart and becomes blood, there is equal distribution. Not that because brain is first-class, therefore the blood transformation to the brain should go more. No. Then it will be blood pressure, high blood pressure. This is nature's way, that... But when the energy goes to the brain, it acts differently. When the energy goes to the hands, it acts differently. The electricity energy is the same, but sometimes by working on the dictaphone, sometimes on the microphone, sometimes in electric heater, sometimes in refrigerator... The different apparatuses are there, but the energy is the same, equal. In that sense, the communistic idea that whatever energy is there, whatever resources are there, they should be equally distributed, that is nature's way. From the body we can understand that when the foodstuff turns into secretion, it goes to the heart and becomes blood.
Yogeśvara: Well, he says it's difficult to be any kind of doctor or professor unless you are properly qualified.
Prabhupāda: No, from this point of... He is right. Unless he has got the medical degrees, unless he is educated... We also say that thing, that unless one is sufficiently educated in medical science or legal science, he cannot be said a medical man or a legal man.
C. Hennis: You see, my organization represents all the states in the world practically, all the states of any importance in the world, with the exception of a few like Monaco and San Marino and Andorra and that kind of place. And through my organization, the states of the world, and that doesn't only mean governments, express their concern and endeavor to improve the lot of all of the people who are active in some way in the economy and in modern society, these may be professional workers. We don't deal with medical doctors because that is the problems of the World Health Organization. We don't deal with teachers and university professors and philosophers and so on because that is more the problem of UNESCO, and they deal with it very thoroughly. We don't deal by any means fully with the actual production of foodstuffs. This is the FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization who does it.
Prabhupāda: So how you can say there is no water in the moon planet?
Karandhara: Well, they can take samples in the desert and find out if there is certain degree of moisture in the soil. They have taken the same samples on the moon and say that there is no moisture.
Prabhupāda: So why the moon planet is bereft of? Material, anything material, it is combination of earth, water, fire, air, ether. Anything material. It is a combination.
Karandhara: Well, there are probably very minute quantities of moisture on the moon. But they say nothing significant, nothing suitable for agriculture.
Yogeśvara: There are no plants growing on the moon. In the desert we find some plants, but they have not found any vegetation on the moon.
Madame Devi: (French)
Yogeśvara: "Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?"
Prabhupāda: Covered means with some dirty things. That's all.
Yogeśvara: By past karma.
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that.
Madame Devi: (French)
Yogeśvara: She asks if by repeating the mantra, the name of God, it has more...
Prabhupāda: You become purified. Purified.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Their sensation is very covered. Just like you cut the nails. There is no sensation. And does it mean there is no sensation-therefore there is no life? Unless there is life, how it is growing? It is growing; therefore you cut. But when you cut, there is no sensation. But there is life. Otherwise, how it is growing? The same nail, when you cut, you throw it on the ground. It will not grow. These are practical example. Just like little child. Their sensation is less. I know. My eldest daughter, when she was six months old, there was some boil. So the doctor operated. She simply, "Uh, uh," no cried. I have seen it. She was not crying. But the same boil, when a fully developed man, he will feel more sensation. So according to the body, the sensations are different. The same things, means mind, intelligence and ego, according to the body, they act differently. But the mind, intelligence and ego are there. The dog is coming, and if I say, "Hut!", unless it has got intelligence, how it goes away the other way? There is intelligence. There is no language, but because he has got intelligence, he can immediately understand I don't want him to come here. So how you can say there is no intelligence? The rascals say "The animals have no intelligence; therefore they have no soul." If one has no intelligence, there is no soul. That is admitted. But here is intelligence. How can you deny, "There is no soul"? The animals, the cows, when they are taken to the slaughterhouse, why they cry? Because he has intelligence that "Now I am going to be killed." And these rascals say there is no soul. And still, they are religious priests. Such fools and rascals are made religious fools, priests. No common sense. And they also get degree, Doctor of Divinity, DD. (break) ...Greek scholar, here in this Germany or in nearby?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like when you say, "United States of America," that's actually a place. There are living entities. There are men and mountains, rivers. Everything is there. Similarly, all these planets, they are inhabited by living entities. There are similarly cities and towns and mountains and rivers and oceans. Everything is there—of different pattern. Just like the moon planet. It is... The temperature is 200 degree below zero. So you cannot go and live there. But there are living entities who can live there. Just like even on this planet, there are living entities in the Arctic region, but for us it is very difficult to live there. And there are different climatic influences. Even on this planet. One place is suitable for one kind of man, another place is suitable for another. Just like we are Indian. We cannot tolerate such, I mean, what is called, pinching, cool. So similarly, in India you cannot tolerate scorching heat. So for each and every planet there are different patterns of living entities. They can live. Just like you cannot live within water. For that reason you cannot say nobody can live in the water.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Celibacy. Does he observe?
Doug: Yes, as far as I know.
Rūpānuga: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu told me that he has a doctorate degree in some science.
Doug: Physics.
Rūpānuga: Physics, a doctorate in physics.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Balavanta: He has a degree, a Ph.D. in physics.
Doug: I don't think it's a Ph.D. I think it's just a masters degree.
Prabhupāda: In physics.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. If you accept progress... Just like you are seeing the sun, I am also seeing the sun, the boy is also seeing the sun, but the understanding of the sun may be different. Everyone is seeing the sun. The objective is the same. But a child's understanding of sun and an elderly man's understanding of sun, a scientist's understanding of sun, or one man who has actually gone to the sun planet, there are different categories. Do you accept or not? The sun is there. God is accepted in every scripture. That is a fact. But in the same way, how far He is understood, that is different. That is different. The same example, that everyone is seeing sun: "Here is sun," there is no doubt. But a child's understanding of sun, his father's understanding of sun, or a scientist's understanding of sun, or a person who has gone to the sun planet, his understanding of sun is different. The objective is the same. And everyone is right. Either you understand fully sun or not, as soon as you come before the sun you get the light. The child is getting the light, the scientist is getting the light, and the ordinary person getting the light. Everyone is getting light, heat and light. But their understanding different, of degrees. (break) ...sun-god or sun, no, we don't say that.
Prabhupāda: What is that scholarship? Simply...
Prajāpati: The scholarship... They have degrees by their names, and they've gone through listening to other mental speculators, and now their students listen to them.
Prabhupāda: You said there are twelve names?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Yes. I have a list of them.
Prabhupāda: In the Bible?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: Yes. One of them means "the Lord who sees me." One of them means "the supreme friend," "the supreme father." One of them means "the Lord of the mountain." One of them means "the King, the greatest King." "Brother" is another meaning. So... And these are all in the Old Testament, all these different names. So one of their arguments is that we're presenting a different name. Therefore they think it is a different God. We can refer that there are twelve names. Does that mean that there are twelve Gods?
Acyutānanda: We have names which apply to those also.
Śruta-kīrti: It's all right here.
Prabhupāda: I'll do. Mūḍhas. They are mūḍhas, means rascals, and they're exposing more and more that yes, they are mūḍhas. And another set of rascals, what is called, recognizing that "Yes, take this degree." Avyāpare suvyāparaṁ yo naraḥ kartum icchati sa mūḍhaḥ hanyate 'khilotpad iva vānaraḥ.(?) Vānara means monkey. Monkey... One monkey... there was a woodcutter. What is called, woodcutter?
Paramahaṁsa: Carpenter.
Devotee: Lumberjack.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Lumber...?
Sruta-kirti: Lumberjack.
Pañcadraviḍa: Cuts trees?
Jayapatāka: Everyone is sending their sons and daughters to the university and colleges, and they are getting degree, but they are not getting any jobs.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa never says that, that "You send your children to the universities and make them fools and rascals." So one who is depending on job, he's a śūdra. That is not education. Education is not meant for the śūdra but for the dvijas, twice-born, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, and vaiśya. Śūdras are never for education. So their education, so-called education, means creating so many śūdras. Unless he gets a job his education is useless. Therefore he's a śūdra. And brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—they will create their own means of livelihood. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya. Therefore they are unhappy. They don't get job, neither they are able to work independently.
Brahmānanda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees.
Prabhupāda: That is the way of... They have discovered this streptomycin, for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injections of streptomycin, then it does not act.
Devotee: He becomes immune.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...psychology, metaphysics.
Kim: Yes.
Amogha: He was telling me that the paper he's writing for his master's degree is comparing a German philosopher with Buddhist philosophy.
Kim: Which, as far as I can gather, the self/no-self thing, Buddhism was denying that you're the ātman, I think. Could you perhaps say something about that?
Amogha: He's asking about the conception of denial of the self.
Kim: Of the ātman, yes.
Amogha: Ātman. The finishing of ātman.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. So how can you deny ātman?
Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything.
Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.
Paramahaṁsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.
Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.
Prabhupāda: Free?
Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Carol Cameron from the University of West Australia. She has a degree in Social Work, in Arts, and she's working on a Master's Degree in Anthropology. In this degree her paper is on the subject of the influence of Hindu and Buddhist mysticism on the West. So she would like to ask you some questions. This is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda.
Carol: I would like to know why in the beginning why you came to the West. I know a bit about your background, but not very much. Why you saw the need to come.
Prabhupāda: That I was speaking. Of course, it is very strong words. That Western people they are claiming very civilized, but I have got objection. Therefore I have come to the West. Because, for example, the animal-killing. The Western people are mostly Christians. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said that "Thou shall not kill." But the result was that two thousand years passed, but the people of the Western countries, they are still killing. So when they have accepted Christianity? What is your answer?
Carol: But the actual original scriptures aren't enacted in Western life.
Prabhupāda: And in the record album he has given this picture. So you are intelligent girl, you study about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will benefit you. The anthropology you may get some degree, adoration. What is the benefit? Jaya. (Carol leaves) They enquire why I have come to the West. If I enquire that two thousand year ago you have been taught that "Thou shall not kill," and your business is only to kill. I have come to enquire from you, "What is your answer?" How you have become civilized, that you cannot accept one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are declaring yourself as Christian and civilized. This is my question. Answer it. In two thousand years, first of all you began killing Christ. Never mind, still, two thousand years past, you could not stop killing? You could not accept the first instruction. What kind of civilized man?
Prabhupāda: We have got about hundred centers. And we are maintained in Eu..., just like European, American standard, not vagabond standard. But still, we have no fixed income. Depend on Kṛṣṇa. If He wants, He will give us food; if He wants, we shall starve. This is brāhmaṇa, practical. And "Now I have got all degrees, and unless I get a good master, then I am street dog." (Dr. Copeland laughs) That is śūdra. Without getting a master... Just like a street dog has no value unless he gets a good master. Then he can bark (Prabhupāda barks), "Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! I have got my master." And if he doesn't get a master, nobody cares for it, and he is lean and thin, here going, here going, that's all. This is śūdra. He has no power to live independently. That is śūdra.
Dr. Copeland: And you're training them to lead?
Prabhupāda: Yes, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will supply everything. Be confident. This is brāhmaṇa. We don't depend. You see for the last ten years our institution going on. We don't depend on anyone else. If you contribute voluntarily, welcome, but we are not dependent on you. This is brahminical class of man. We don't... Find this: śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam. What are they? Śamaḥ?
Prabhupāda: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.
Paramahaṁsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Kṛṣṇa conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Not necessary.
Paramahaṁsa: Better if he just...
Prabhupāda: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if they read my books, they will be benefited. There is no doubt about it.
Bahulāśva: Yes. Then they can get a degree recognized by the state of California so they can teach in universities all over the whole country.
Prabhupāda: That I want. Do it. We want to give degrees, at least B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., according to the advancement of knowledge. And that will be very much beneficial to your country. Then America will be saved from disaster and it will be the leader. The country will be leader of the whole world. Take this advantage.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, there are some questions about exactly how to do this college. We will be licensed by the state of California, that is no problem. We can get a license immediately.
Prabhupāda: Get it.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bahulāśva: You like, Dr. Judah said he will help?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. If he appreciates our movement, then he can become.
Dharmādhyakṣa: So what we need, Prabhupāda, is whoever has an advanced degree to come to the college and to teach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Like even Dāmodara here, prabhu. He has a master's degree.
Prabhupāda: He has already proposed that he wants to give up his service and fully work for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Jayatīrtha: Svarūpa Dāmodara?
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmādhyakṣa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brāhmaṇas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulāśva: Two āratiks a day, sixteen rounds—these would be also course requirements.
Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. (break)
Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then the aspect... The aspects have been summarized that God is realized in three aspects, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: (SB 1.2.11) impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead. Just like the sun. The sunshine is also sun, but you cannot say that you are in sun. Can you say that? But you are sunshine. The sunshine is not different from the sun. Similarly, in the Absolute Truth the first realization is Brahman, and the next realization is Paramātmā, and the ultimate realization is Bhagavān. The subject matter is the same. But according to the degree of advancement, the realization is partial. The subject matter is the same. Now you can study the sunshine, but it is not in your power to go to the sun planet and study what is actually sun. But because it is not in your power, it does not mean that sun planet is less. You cannot go there; it is not in your power. You can simply study the sunshine. But that does not mean the sun globe is false or there is no subject matter of study. You cannot go there.
Prabhupāda: That is... Just like the heat, the question of energy, the heat 93,000,000's miles away from the sun, heat may be different, and in the sun-globe the heat may be different. But the heat is there; and light is there. The same thing: heat and light is the same, but the degree of presentation of heat and light may be different.
Dr. Pore: Is chanting absolutely necessary in the knowing...
Prabhupāda: That is the easiest way of being directly in touch with God. Because God and God's name, they are absolute, so your chanting the name of God means that directly in touch with God.
Dr. Crossley: Why is that better than loving your fellow man in the traditional bhakti-mārga?
Prabhupāda: Just like law college. Law college, one joins after graduation.
Dr. Judah: Right. There are two types of college programs. One is what we call the undergraduate program which is generally a four-year program leading to a bachelor's degree, and then there is the graduate program, which one finds, particularly here in the United States, if one is interested in religion, in the seminaries, which are...
Prabhupāda: If you have time some other time. We have to go over the particulars. So whenever you like. Day after tomorrow I am going?
Jayatīrtha: He is.
Dr. Judah: I'll be here tomorrow and tomorrow afternoon I have to go back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So in the morning.
Dr. Judah: You had been to India?
Brahmānanda: Yes. I was planning on going back also. I wanted to take a further degree. I was applying for a Fulbright.
Dr. Judah: I see. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...by simply inquiring about Kṛṣṇa, you have become Kṛṣṇaized.
Dr. Judah: Yes, I think, yes.
Prabhupāda: Because several times you had to utter the word Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Judah: Kṛṣṇa has been certainly a great influence in my life, the chanting and being with the devotees. It has been a transforming thing.
Brahmānanda: I was looking at your book last evening. I thought it was very nice.
Dr. Judah: Thank you.
Brahmānanda: It's very scholarly and scientific and at the same time sympathetic. So I think it will make everyone happy.
Dr. Judah: Yes. I hope so. I dedicated it to the devotees and to their parents.
Brahmānanda: Yes. To breach the gap, yoga. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: More... Bhāgavatam, I told you, it is a counterpart. Just like when you have passed the school examination then next you admit yourself for degree or graduate degree. Similarly, Bhāgavata is the end of education. Everyone is progressing. When one comes to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and understands it then his education is complete.
Prof. Hopkins: Then would it be, would it be dangerous for someone who is not at that level to study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or would they simply not understand it?
Prabhupāda: Dangerous means if one is not completely educated of self-realization he has the risk of degradation.
Prof. Hopkins: He has what?
Prabhupāda: We can see one material example, that the sun, for millions and trillions of years it is distributing sunshine, heat, but still it is full. If it is possible materially, what about the Supreme Lord? Five thousand years or five millions of years the degree of temperature in the sunshine was the same as it is now. If it is materially so possible how much it is possible spiritually?
Prof. Hopkins: Is that... It's difficult for people outside the Kṛṣṇa consciousness group to see what the purpose of the movement is.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Prof. Hopkins: It's difficult for people outside the society of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to see what the purpose is. How would you understand the purpose? Simply to make God known? How would you state...
Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.
Sudāmā: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Kṛṣṇa.
Citsukhānanda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupāda. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. (break) ...Mukunda, Mukunda, or Murāri? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected him. "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda. (indistinct) (break) ...api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, then?
Satsvarūpa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that on the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitṛloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death. Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, one can obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise, it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Pātāla are also changeable according to our work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge, where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in the life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree and quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly, everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things; but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."
Prabhupāda: So this is our mission. We are propagating this. Do you think it is all right?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaiśya, trade. It is a trade. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Kṛṣi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaiśya. So vaiśya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brāhmaṇa should be very highly learned scholar. So the brāhmaṇas will give advice to the kṣatriya how to rule, and the kṣatriya will levy tax, and vaiśyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.
Devotee: What kind of tax?
Prabhupāda: That is the test.
Akṣayānanda: (break) ...Śrīla Prabhupāda, I was handed some leaflets, Cinmayananda Swami, and the printed advertisement on the leaflet wanted "Young men with graduation degree to come to our institute in Bombay. They will be trained up in Sanskrit."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Akṣayānanda: "To be trained in Sanskrit and philosophy. Then they will be selected by Cinmayananda for preaching all over the world. And if they qualify, then all their expenses and food and clothing will be supplied by the Cinmayananda Mission." Advertisement.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This appeared in Times of India, it's only in Bombay. It also appeared in Times of India in (indistinct). It was an ad just like a professional company's ad.
Prabhupāda: Nobody will be attracted.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Brahmānanda: What is that?
Guest (2): Have you had a significant impact on the American society? The values you preach, have they influenced Americans to a certain degree?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. You can go in America, any country, any city, and everyone will know Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): That's not what I mean. What I mean is have Americans started to be less violent, for instance, or have they started to be less egotistical or...
Brahmānanda: Well, not unless they follow our movement. But those who have followed our movement... Recently there was one study that was published by a very eminent sociologist in America from the University of California, the (sic:) Union Theological Center, and he stated in that book that the members of this movement, formerly they were drug-addicted hippies, and now they have become servants of Kṛṣṇa and humanity, loving servants. So he has given proof through intensive interviews that one who follows and joins this movement, dramatically his life becomes changed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the supreme light. There are degrees of light. There is sunlight, and there is this light. You cannot compare this light with sun. (laughter) Light are so many, but that does not mean the sunlight and this light is the same.
Guest (4): No, what I...
Prabhupāda: First of all you understand this. You have questioned about the light. First of all you understand there are degrees of light. You cannot say this light and the sunlight is the same.
Guest (4): By this, you mean that those who adopt the teachings coming from the Koran or from the Bible is lesser light than from the Gītā?
Prabhupāda: That is your business. That is your business. But we give you the idea that light comes from everywhere. There is one glowworm. That light also light, and the sunlight is also light. You cannot think that the glowworm's light and the sunlight is the same. Now it is your business to see which is glowworm light and which is sunlight. That is your business.
Prabhupāda: He is my student. He practices like him.
Prof. Olivier: Yeah, but now would he have what is normally in the Western world called a theological degree?
Prabhupāda: He has...theological degree, he has studied all these books. This is theological. But there is no such thing at the present moment.
Prof. Olivier: Yeah. I can see your problem. But now our problem on this side is, of course, that you...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Just as in America, I remember at the university...
Prabhupāda: No, you can give an experiment. We don’t charge anything. You see how he teaches. Then if you like, you can appoint.
Prabhupāda: So we welcome everyone, African, South African, North African.
Reporter: What stops so many millions of people from doing it?
Prabhupāda: Well, knowledge means it is meant for few men. If you want men without any university degree, you will get many thousands. But as soon as say, "We want graduate," it will be minimized. Or as soon as you say "postgraduate," it will be still minimized. So as soon as there is question of knowledge, the number of people will be diminished. So we cannot expect mass of people. But if there are good persons, exemplified person, vivid example, that will help the whole society—"There is ideal class. They know everything."
Reporter: You're going to be delivering two addresses next week at one of our biggest universities.
Prabhupāda: That he knows.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍha, narādhama māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). They have no knowledge. "Why no knowledge? Degrees." No, this is māyā. "What is the cause?" Aśuri-bhavam aśritaḥ: Godless rascal. Therefore he's a mūḍha.
Harikeśa: So it's not that we're so much concerned about science but rather the aśuravāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: We don't have to research because our conclusion is already there.
Prabhupāda: Already there. And it is acting, practical. How from the stone this has come? Stone and sand, but they are life; it is green. (Break) ...this?
Dr. Patel: Sarva-bhavena, from all sides and from all degrees.
Prabhupāda: It is very difficult. So we are dealing with very, very difficult task. It is not very easy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Naturally we have got attraction for God. That is spiritual kingdom. Just like Vṛndāvana. Vṛndāvana means center is Kṛṣṇa. The elderly person like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśoda, their friends, their..., they are also attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The gopīs are attracted to Kṛṣṇa, the cowherds boys, they are attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The cows, calves, animals and peacock—everyone is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. The water is attracted to Kṛṣṇa. That is Vṛndāvana. And here in the material world nobody is attracted by Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Here is paṇḍita. What is he? Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: he sees every woman as mother, except his own wife. And para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: and other's property, possessions, just like garbage. And atmavat-sarva bhūteṣu: and feeling for everyone as he himself is feeling the pains and pleasures. If one has attained this stage, then he is considered educated. He never says these degrees. No.
Dr. Patel: These degrees are artifacts.
Prabhupāda: That is upādhi. Education is to become upādhi-less. Sarvopādhi vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). But they are increasing upādhi.
Dr. Patel: People think so far as they are concerned that education means giving the knowledge of how to read and write. I think it is the knowledge and not the education. The education is something different, that trains up your mind how to think, how to, I mean, separate grain from the chaff.
Prabhupāda: Education means ethical. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is education.
Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. Here is education, as Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says:
- mātṛvat para-dāreṣu
- para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat
- ātmāvat sarva-bhūteṣu
- yaḥ paśyati sa paṇḍitaḥ
Here is a description of paṇḍita: first of all learn how to see other woman as your mother. There the culture begins. And they are, from the very beginning of the school college life, they are learning how to entice one girl. This is education.
Dr. Patel: They are following the so-called advanced countries.
Prabhupāda: Advanced means Freud's philosophy.
Dr. Patel: So-called advancement.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the way of learning everything. You cannot learn your medical science from a pān-wālā. You have to go to a medical college.
Dr. Patel: They also give some (gowdies?) in the pān.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot take your degree from the pān wālā. Nowadays some of the rascals, they are preaching openly that you haven't got to go to a guru. Huh, is it not?
Indian man: Krishnamurti is...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this rascal was speaking like that.
Devotee: He has thousands of disciples.
Prabhupāda: Such kind of.... as he is.
| Page Title: | Degree (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 27 of Jun, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=86, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 86 |