Prabhupāda: Just like Yaśodā. Kṛṣṇa's friends complained, "Mother Yaśodā, Kṛṣṇa has eaten earth. You gave Him sweetmeat, but He was not eating sweetmeat." You know. The boys, they complain each other and again make friends. So Yaśodā was..., "Oh, Kṛṣṇa, I gave You sweetmeats. You are eating earth?" "No, mother. I have not eaten. They are telling false." And they were still, "Yes. We have seen, mother, He has eaten." Then mother asked Him, "Oh, show Your face. Open Your mouth. I want to see." So He opened His mouth, and she saw all the universe within His mouth, not only earth, the whole planets, sun and moon, and everything, within His mouth. Then she thought, "Oh, what I have seen? All right. Don't do it." That's all. (laughter) She is not at all surprised. She thought that "I saw something. Maybe I wrong or right. All right. Don't do it." That's all. So they were so much affectionate to Kṛṣṇa that Kṛṣṇa's this jugglery could not enchant them. (chuckles) You see? Therefore Kṛṣṇa said to the gopīs that "Your love is so pure that it is not possible for Me to repay." Kṛṣṇa is declaring insolvent to pay their debt. "You be satisfied with your love only. I cannot repay." That is the position of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa and the residents of Vṛndāvana so affectionately connected, that there is no such conception that "Kṛṣṇa is God, Kṛṣṇa can play wonderful things." They simply love Kṛṣṇa. And out of love they forget everything. "All right. That's all right. That's all right." So that ecstasy of love is only possible in Vṛndāvana.
Declare (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This Bhagavad-gītā is read by the human society not only in India, but outside India, since a very long, long time. But unfortunately, as everything is deteriorated by the contact of material contamination, so people began to interpret Bhagavad-gītā in different ways. Therefore about five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanya appeared, and he started the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement under His personal guidance in Bengal. His birthplace is known as Navadvīpa. Now, He ordered every Indian to spread this message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world, in every village, every town. That was His order. But unfortunately, since India was under foreign subjugation, they could not spread, or they lost their own independence of culture. But everyone expected after declaration of independence by India, such things should come to the outside world. But the government did not take much care of it. So far I am concerned, I belong to Lord Caitanya's disciplic succession, and my spiritual master, who was just ninth generation from Lord Caitanya, he ordered me that "You try to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western world." Therefore in pursuance of his order, I have come here.
Prabhupāda: Other belief, they are also based on the principle of love. That is actually not belief; that is misbelief. Because any religious principle... Just like Buddhism. Buddhism, actually, they do not believe in God, but they have love for Lord Buddha. So love is there. They may declare that "We don't believe in God," but they love Lord Buddha. And according to our Vedic scripture, Lord Buddha is also incarnation of God. So we interpret in this way, that Lord Buddha preached among the atheists by cheating them. Oh, how it is? That they did not believe in God, and Lord Buddha said, "Oh, yes, there is no God. But you love Me." So they are loving Lord Buddha. Similarly, there are many persons. They do not believe in family life, they do not believe in so many things, but love is there. He is sleeping with a cat, with a dog. So in no circumstances you can avoid love, but they are suffering because the love is misplaced and misused.
Prabhupāda: I can declare, they are all nonsense.
Journalist: That's what... I wanted to... If you could elaborate on that a little more.
Prabhupāda: And I can say furthermore, they're all rascals.
Journalist: The Maharishi for example...
Prabhupāda: He was rascal number one. I say publicly.
Prabhupāda: But these people, rascals, will accept him as God because they do not know what is God. That is the defect. We know what is God, therefore we cannot accept any rascal declaring that he's God. That is the difference.
Journalist: Well it's just absolutely absurd that somebody comes out and tells you he's God.
Prabhupāda: But how much rascal he is who accepts him as God. He's rascal number one. He is a cheater and the man who is cheated he is also another rascal. He does not know what is God. Anybody comes as God, as God has become so cheap it can be available in the market, everywhere.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Param Brahman. We are all Brahmans. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Every one of us, living entity, Brahman. But He is the chief Brahman. Just like you are all Americans, but your president is the chief American. Do you understand? So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the chief Brahman. You are all Brahman, but He is the chief Brahman. Is it clear? That's all right. (Break) ...that "This boy hears very nicely. He does not go away," the first impression he gave to other godbrothers. "So I shall make him disciple." These very words he said. Actually I did not follow him in the beginning. High philosophical speaking and I was a new boy. I could not follow him, but actually I was so much glad to hear him. That's all. So that was my qualification, whatever you may say. I was simply asking, "When Guru Mahārāja will speak? When he will speak? When?" And I will sit down and go on hearing, and I will understand or not understand-others will disperse—I will not disperse. That he marked. Yes. First. There was first one instance. At that time I was not initiated. There was a circumambulation of whole Vṛndāvana. So although I was not initiated, I was one of the important members of the... So I thought, "Let me go. What these people are doing, circumambulating all over Vṛndāvana?" So I went to Mathurā. Then I went to the Vṛndāvana interior, which place was known as Kosi. So in that Koṣi one of my godbrothers declared that "Prabhupāda is going tomorrow back to Mathurā. So he will speak this evening.
Prabhupāda: Never, never, never. That is his insanity, another. As soon as he thinks that "I am independent," that is another insanity. He is under control. Just like the same man. He is thinking, "I don't care for state laws." He is insane. He will be forced to accept state laws in the prison house by the police. But he thinks, "Oh, I am free man." Still... He is slapped by the police. He says, "Oh, I am independent. Go on slapping." This is insanity. Is it not insanity? The police slaps him, and he says, "I am independent." Do you think independence? So that sort of independence we are having. We are kicked by māyā always, and we are thinking, "independent." This is insanity. He does not think, "Why I am independent? I am servant of my senses. I cannot remain, enjoying senses, for an hour, and I am thinking I am independent." That means insane. He cannot think properly. Where is his independence? Cannot be independent. He is born dependent because part and parcel of God. His constitutional position is dependent. Just like child. A child declares independence. What is the meaning of that independence? Danger. That's all. Simply inviting dangers. A child wants: "Oh, I don't care for my parents. I shall cross the road. I shall go everywhere." So if he is allowed to do that, that means he is simply inviting dangers. And if he remains under the protection of the parents, he is always safe. So this living entity's declaring independence means he is insane, different kinds of insanity. He cannot be independent. Let him think very deeply that it cannot be independent.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (knock on door) Yes, open it. Anyway, to make cut short, to make cut short, so far we are concerned, we have declared, "International Society for Krishna Consciousness." Our process of propaganda is that Kṛṣṇa is the highest authority. That is our... You may take it that we are limited; that is your business. But we have taken this. Now, if you don't accept Kṛṣṇa as the higher authority, then there is no question of inquiring from us.
Guest (1): What is the form, you see, I mean...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is the form. Here is Kṛṣṇa's form.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Oh, you haven't got. You have got? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (birds crying) The sunrise is declared. "Koo koo koo koo koo." Yes. Nature's way. They'll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. He's a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws and therefore we suffer. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā, mām eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14). And one who has surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the māyā. And those who are in māyā they are sleeping. And those who are not in māyā they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? Mām eva ye prapadyante: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the māyā's contamination." Just see. There is maṅgala ārati. In Vṛndāvana just at four o'clock.
Prabhupāda: They are all nonsense! Therefore I say they are all nonsense, who deviates from the original text of the Bhagavad-gītā.
Guest (2): Swamiji, by declaring other interpretation as nonsense...
Prabhupāda: Yes! You cannot interpret! First of all if you cannot interpret. First of all my proposal, that you cannot interpret.
Guest (2): We'll come to that, that you are not interpreting correctly, does not make me correct. I must be correct also to...
Prabhupāda: I am correct so long I present the correct thing, so long I am... If I present Kṛṣṇa as it is, then I am correct.
Prabhupāda: Modern sociology is targeting the state or the people as the owner of a certain state, but our Vedic conception is īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ: (ISO 1) "Everything is owned by Īśa, the Supreme Controller." Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: "What is given by Him, allotted to you, you enjoy that." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam: "But we not encroach upon others' property." This is Īśopaniṣad, Vedas. And the same idea is explained in different Purāṇas. So the Vedas can give you... The other day I was reading in the, that paper, Moscow News, there was a congress, Communist congress, and the president declared that "We are ready to get others' experience to improve." So I think the Vedic concept of socialism or communism will much improve the idea of communism. Just like we are thinking in terms of human beings, the commu..., socialistic state, that "Nobody should starve. Everyone must have his food." And in the Vedic conception of gṛhastha, householder, it is recommended there that a householder shall see that even a lizard living in the room or even a snake living in that house should not starve. They should be also given food. And what to speak of others? The gṛhastha, before taking his lunch, he is recommended to stand on the road and declare that "If anybody is still hungry, please come. Food is ready." Then, if there is no response, then the proprietor of the household life, he takes his lunch. In this way there are so many good concept about this socialistic idea of communism. So I thought that these ideas might have been distributed to some of your thoughtful men. Therefore I was anxious to speak with you.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that "No more any sacrifice or yajña. Stop all this nonsense. No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." (chuckles) Yes, they... Just like in Russia we are afraid or China, yes. They will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na, no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government... Our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russians, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russians, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi.
So anyway, these such things were existing formerly also, but they were not very common affair. Sometimes after many, many years, a bad king would come. Throughout the history, at least in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we find this one king only, Vena, who declared the sacrifice, charity illegal. na yaṣṭavyaṁ na dātavyaṁ na hotavyaṁ dvijāḥ kvacit (SB 4.14.6), by the brāhmaṇas. Just like the other day it was published in the paper that this India spiritual, this is a myth. They are also declaring. Iti nyavārayad dharmaṁ. So execution of religious principle was forbidden, nyavārayat. Bherī-ghoṣeṇa, bherī means bugle, by bugle, sarvaśaḥ, everywhere.
This is the problem of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that people are becoming more and more Godless. And one may think that unnecessarily we have taken this responsibility to make them God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no need to make this propaganda all over the world. But actually, the saintly persons have concern. Just like the other day I told you, Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned that these rascals for temporary so-called... (break) ...people are engaged unnecessarily to work very hard day and night, the capitalist, the worker. Big, big factory, iron factory, in so many factories, unnecessarily. So Prahlāda Maharaja was concerned. He was living, his father was a demon, in the demonic state. So this is natural. If one saintly person do not be disturbed by people's unhappiness, he is not saintly person. He is not saintly person. If he is simply satisfied that "I have got a temple, I am getting good income, let me eat and sleep." My Guru Maharaja condemned this process.
Prabhupāda: I don't think. But there are many ācāryas. Maybe somewhere I might have mentioned. It is not that woman cannot be ācārya. Generally, they do not become. In very special case. But Jāhnavā-devī was accepted as, but she did not declare.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Women today..., there is a very popular topic amongst women. They speak of liberation. And their desire to be liberated is sane, but they do not understand. And they object very strongly... I've spoken to some of these so-called liberated women, and they object strongly to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they think we discriminate against women. So I have been taking advantage of opportunities to describe to them that the only means to liberation for men and woman is through Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not make any discrimination. Kṛṣṇa does not make. Whatever difference is there, it is bodily difference. But as soul, there is equality. So whatever difference we make, that is bodily difference. So when one is above the bodily concept of life, there is no difference. Why woman? Even cats and dogs. Woman is human being. Even cats and dogs, they have got the same spirit soul. So a learned scholar will see from the spiritual platform. Then there is equality.
Prabhupāda: The demons. Demons. Demons. Just like Lord Rāmacandra fought with the demons, so similarly, Kṛṣṇa conscious person will fight with the demons. That is already there. Demons and demigod always fight. Devāsura-yuddha, you know? That is history. We don't say that fighting should be stopped. We don't say that. We don't say that becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, nonviolence. That is bogus. In Delhi when there was not..., declaration of war between Pakistan and India, press representative came: "Swamiji, what is your opinion about this fight?" I said, "You must fight." And it was published in the paper. It gave some agitation. They were glad. I said, "You must fight." And that was published in big letters in... So we are not that kind of sādhu and Vaiṣṇava, that we don't take care of practical things. When there is need of fight, we shall fight.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) The, our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned, he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā—that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy, that's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now our consciousness is polluted. We are thinking different way. Just like a madman thinks that..., sometimes he says, "I am the king." He stands sometimes in the midst of the road: "Stop, I order you!" Does he not? Madman. (laughs) Nobody cares for him, but he says, thinks like that. Similarly, under the spell of this illusory energy, we are thinking differently. Somebody, I am thinking "I am Indian," you are thinking "Englishman," he is thinking "American." I am thinking "I am proprietor of this," I am thinking "I am the master of this." So many ways. These things are all madman's proposition, that's all. So this madness can go when we actually surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand things as they are. So we are training our students in that way. If anyone is serious, then he can make his life successful, even during this span of life. So I'm very glad that you have got this attitude. So it is very simple thing. Hm? There is a Bengali verse, (Bengali). Just like a person ghostly haunted, he speaks so many nonsense, up to somebody's declaring "I am God." First of all "I am this; I am that. I am this; I am that. I want to become this. I want to become this." And when he is frustrated with everything, then he says, "I am God." That is also another illusion.
Prabhupāda: The government may create a prisonhouse, but why do you go there? Does the government invite you there? No, you become a criminal and go there. The prisonhouse is there and the university is there. Why do some people go to prison rather than the university? The government is not partial to people; it does not say, "You live in this university and be educated, and you go to the prison and live there." It is in the individual's choice. Similarly, God has created so many things, but it is our duty to follow God's instructions. God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "Just give up all nonsense and surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." That is God's declaration. Why don't you take to that? God is all powerful, and He may create so many things for some purpose, but why don't you follow God's instructions? God says, "Surrender unto Me," so why not surrender? Why surrender to māyā? That is the individual's choice. Another example: the government does not want the youth to become hippies, but they are abandoning a wealthy life just to lie down in the street. In London I've seen many boys lying on the street. Why? We Indians may lie on the street because we are poor, but they are not poor, nor the Americans.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are proud because they do not see the reality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore they are fools. The same philosophy. The pot man is thinking of becoming a millionaires, pot. By thinking so, he has become millionaire. So these fools are like that. Thinking that in future they will make all solution, they are presenting themselves as perfect scientists. That is their foolishness. Our proposition is: "First of all you prove that you are, you are millionaires. Then talk of all this nonsense. You cannot prove, and still why you declare yourself as scientist?" Scientist means one who has got perfect knowledge. Is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is scientist. But you haven't got that. But why you...? You are punishable. Just like if somebody is not a bona fide medical practitioner, but he gives: "Doctor M.D.," he's punishable. There are so many bogus. They are not detected. But if they are detected, they are punishable. If you say that: "Yes, I am a student, I am not a scientist, I have no full knowledge," that is right. You have no perfect knowledge. Still you say "There is no God." How is that? You have no perfect knowledge. How do you say there is no God. Eh? They say there is no God.
Prabhupāda: That is explained that asatyam apratiṣṭhaṁ te, jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). These rascals, these demons they say like that, that this is asatya, this is untruth. There is no cause. There is no īśvara. This is the demoniac declaration. If Kṛṣṇa is fact, His creation is fact. His energy is fact. Why shall I say false? We don't say it is false. The Māyāvādīs say it is false.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: If someone looks at the Deity of Kṛṣṇa and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material?
Prabhupāda: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Kṛṣṇa's energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician knows how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is everywhere, even in the stone. The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Kṛṣṇa. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Kṛṣṇa. Why stone should be without Kṛṣṇa? Here is Kṛṣṇa. That is real oneness. And the Māyāvādī philosopher they say oneness, but divide. This is stone, this is not Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: When there is real, righteous fight, for good cause, that fighting is all right. Just like the state gives punishment one person, "This man should be hanged. Kill him." So who is blaming the state, "Oh, the state is killing this man?" That is right. It is good for him. In Manu-saṁhitā there is good background. So similarly, everything is good when it is done for the good. And God is good. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious move... And everything is bad when it is done for māyā. That's all. So these wars are declared not for Kṛṣṇa's sake; by the politicians' whims. So they must be responsible for this war.
Śyāmasundara: Like the Vietnam, you mean?
Prabhupāda: Any, any war. They create whimsical... Anything you do whimsically, you are responsible. Anything you do. Why fighting? Anything.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. The other pictures were quite revealing too, because they showed Englishmen and Indian people, foreigners everyone.
Prabhupāda: Everyone, yes. And they have declared that we have distributed "free prasādam."
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: "To all and sundry."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Wynne: You should write and ask for prints. They'll send you proper prints of that in the paper, you know.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. That's a good idea. We'll try to get the photograph of that, original photograph from the paper.
Prabhupāda: Hm. That will be very nice.
Prabhupāda: Now he is referring to great sages, on the authority.
Pradyumna: "...and Vyāsa proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: Then? Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14)?
Pradyumna: Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye
Prabhupāda: Yan māṁ vadasi keśava
Pradyumna: ...yan māṁ vadasi keśava, na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ vidur devā na dānavāḥ: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor demons, O Lord, know Thy personality."
Prabhupāda: Just see. Immediately he understands Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye: (BG 10.14) "Whatever You have spoken, I accept it," Then there is no difficulty. And You are accepted by Devala, Nārada, Vyāsa, and You are speaking Yourself, and later on, all the ācāryas have accepted. Then I'll follow: mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). I'll have to follow great personalities. The same reason mother says, this gentleman is my father. That's all. Finish business. Where is the necessity of making research? All authorities accept Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You accept it; then your searching after God is finished.
Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Because we follow Vedic principles. So Vedas declare that these four kinds of activity, they are sinful. So we accept. Our authority is Veda. Just like lawyer's authority is lawbook.
Father Tanner: Would you say there are more sins than those four?
Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?
Father Tanner: Are there other sins?
Śrutakīrti: Are there other sins beside these four...?
Prabhupāda: These are the basic principle of sinful life. Other sinful activities come out of it. Just like illicit sex life. Illicit relationship of a man and woman, there may be many dangerous things. You see? So the basic principle is the illicit sex life. Now, it can go up to murdering and so many things. So if we avoid the basic principles, the further subsidiary sinful activities automatically stopped.
Prabhupāda: So to remain dependent on God is our healthy state. As soon as we declare independent of God, that is our unhealthy state. This is our philosophy. And your philosophy also. To remain there. That is the Vedic injunction, that nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). What is the difference between God and ourself? God is also a living entity like us, but He's the chief living entity. He's maintaining all others. Therefore we have to ask God, "Give us our daily bread." He's the maintainer; we are maintained. Just like in a family, the father is the maintainer, and the mother and the children and the servants, they are maintained, similarly the whole universe, whole creation, it is maintained by God, and we living entities, within this universe or within this creation, we are maintained. So as we are maintained, it is better to remain dependent on God than to declare our freedom.
Father Tanner: But you can in this world, within the limits of time and space,...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, if you are doing stereotyping, then in spite of your father being cruel, you would not declare independence and go away from home. Because you have got this independence, therefore you can understand that: "Why shall I obey this father? I go out." That is independence. They do not understand the meaning of independence.
Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupāda: Hmmm?
Haṁsadūta: Because they've lost their independence.
Prabhupāda: Not lost. Misused.
Haṁsadūta: Fallen into māyā. Or misused.
Prabhupāda: Not lost. Independence still there. He can go back again to father, go back to home, back to Godhead. God says that: sarva-dharmān... "You have come here to enjoy your independence, but you have created a havoc, entanglement. Now, if you simply surrender unto Me, abide by My orders, I give you all concessions. Immediately you are free from all reaction and come back to Me." Therefore, God comes to canvass, He sends His devotee to canvass, that: "You give up your misuse of independence and become happy." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness program. But if you still stick to the independence, misuse of independence, you remain here.
Prabhupāda: Eh. Yeah. Therefore, if we have to acquire knowledge, we must go to a person who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned. There are four defects in the conditioned soul: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of senses. One may declare himself that he's perfect in knowledge, but his senses are imperfect. So how he can call himself that he has got the perfect knowledge by speculative method?
Professor: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: (BG 7.23) "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.
Ambassador: Most of... Well, I mean, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you.
Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of...
Ambassador: To me, Gītā means Gandhi's Gītā which said in a very distorted, very limited version...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable.
Yaśomatīnandana: Yes Prabhupāda, it's a fact.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: How does he know that is...?
Yaśomatīnandana: It's fortunate to become a dog.
Prabhupāda: Ha? The astrologers, they sometimes approached. Ah, what is the position of this man, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Gandhi? And they say something. So he has said about Nehru like this. Astrologer, he was hesitating, then he said. It was spoken by one very respectable person, Śrīdhara Mahārāja.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I am talking on that matter. So if the American nation trusts in God... If not... They say, they have declared. Now, the difficulty is they do not know actually what is God, how to trust. That we are teaching. So the government must come forward to cooperate with us. This should be... There should be an agitation. Now this "In God we trust," it is, it is something like vague idea. There is a need of... (aside:) You can make copy from there. If you bring one dozen like this, then it is difficult to walk. (about tape recorders) So our propaganda should be to the United, I mean to say, United States government and public. And you are theologicians. You should make program that simply saying that "In God we trust," and we do all nonsense, which exhibits that we do not trust in God, this thing should be stopped. You have placed in your Constitution, there is, you trust in God. Now you should understand what is God and how to trust. That we are teaching. This should be taken very seriously. Because you cannot change your Constitution. Already there is that. But you must know it perfectly well what is God and how to trust Him. That science we are teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The government should cooperate fully. There should be school, college, to understand what is God, how to trust. This movement should be started.
Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. Actually, if the American nation take it seriously, "In God we trust," ...They must take it seriously because it is Constitution. Then the whole world will change. The whole world will change. Not only that. The Americans... Just like they are always combatting with the Communists. Similarly, the American nation should be so strong that anyone godless, he should be fired. Any nation who does not believe in God, war declared. "Either you believe in God or come on. Fight. Come under us." This should be the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the...
Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place, and do all rascals and rascaldom. Sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense.
Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,... War was declared against Arjuna because he's, he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā.
Prajāpati: So we must also be very much on guard for this pride.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you should not be falsely proud. The whole material world is falsely proud. Their whole program is to defy God. And our program is to declare war against these rascals. Everyone is trying to defy God. What do you think, scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But their duty should have been, scientist's duty should have been that "God has created so wonderful things. So glorify God." That should have been the scientist's duty, "How nicely He has made!" That is scientist's duty, everyone's duty.
Prajāpati: In the early days of science, about three, four hundred years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, many of the early scientists were persecuted by the church for their discoveries. So since that time, the scientists have declared war on religion, and they have been doing their best to try to disprove all religious things.
Prabhupāda: What they have discovered? These four hundred years, the scientists said that there is no God?
Prajāpati: ...trusting in God. And then, when they realize they are not, then we can show them how to trust in God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "You do not know. You come to us and learn how to trust, how to know. And if you speak lies that you do not know what is God that is a different thing. Then you should be punished." People should be given chance of believing, trusting in God. They have declared. So it is their duty. The state duty is to see how people are trusting. That is state's duty. Constitution says that nobody can steal. Is it not state's duty that people are not becoming thieves and stealing? Is it not the duty of the state? Similarly, if you, if you have accepted this that "In God we trust," you must see that everyone trusts in God. And that is scientifically. Not sentimentally. It is the duty of the state to see.
Prabhupāda: Ah?
Hṛdayānanda: If it is so important, I think perhaps I should stay here and help Rūpānuga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Turn your whole nation, turn into God consciousness, because they've declared in the Constitution, "In God we trust." Now they must take it very seriously. What does it mean by "God"? What does it mean by "trust"? You take this propaganda. We are doing, actually. We trust in God; therefore we have sacrificed our whole life for God. This is trust in God. Not that smoking in the parlor, and you trust in God. Not that kind of trust. Real trust. Trust means first of all you know what is God. Suppose that if you say "Trust this man." But I must know what is this man. Then my trust will be convinced, that "He is very respectful man, he's rich man, he's able man..." Yes, I can trust. But simply trust in God, you do not know what is God, what is trust, and it is going on. Why this bluff? Ah? What you say?
Prajāpati: That that's right, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you must take this clue, that we Americans, we say "In God we trust." Now, every American should know what is God, what is trust. This is propaganda, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The government must come forward to patronize this. This is my proposition. So you write articles, you are theologicians. The America must rise up to the occasion. They have pledged themselves, "In God we trust." Every human nation or every human being should be like that. In God they must trust.
Prabhupāda: So... Now here, why do they not check? A rascal, cheater, and he is presenting himself as God, and why the government is allowing him? Rather, we should bring a case that why government, against the constitution, is allowing this rascal that he is declaring that he is God? What qualification he has got? let it be decided in the court. We should do that.
Svarūpa: We have to make definition of religion.
Prabhupāda: That we shall give in the court. "First of all this man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?" Let there be case. This should be done.
Yaśomatīnandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that "This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court."
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Uh, so, this is a bad sign. Constellation. According to astronomical calculations. Therefore we, we follow the astrology according to the constellation. The child born, everything has connection, the constellation of the star has influence on the child. So therefore the horoscope-maker takes the calculation of the constellation and then calculate what is his future. This dhūmaketu is described in Daśāvatāra-stotra, dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam. Dhūmaketum iva. Dhūmaketum iva kim api karālam. As soon as there is comet, there will be some disaster. Very great disaster. In our childhood we saw the comet, not this like. That was small comet. Still, the first world war was there declared. That we have seen in 1914.
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Halley's comet.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Nara-nārāyaṇa: I think they called it Halley's comet. Halley's comet.
Prabhupāda: Now the... You can expect at any moment disaster in this material world, but the comet is the sign that there will be some great disaster. It is... This material world, in every step there is disaster. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadām (SB 10.14.58). But those who have taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, the disaster is not meant for them.
Prabhupāda: They are surrendered. They are being kicked by māyā at every moment, but because they are fools, they say "I'm not surrendered." This is... In Bengali is called vihvala. Vihvala.(?) No, no... Shameless. He's being kicked every moment, but he's so shameless, that he's declared, "I'm independent, I'm independent." Shameless. (Bengali)
Indian man (3): Just like these dogs around us...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This is the position of the asuras. This is the characteristic of the asura. They are under stringent laws of nature, being kicked every moment, and still is declaring, "There is no God, I'm independent. I'm independent." Every moment he's dying, and still he thinks, "I shall live forever." This is asura. Pravṛttiṁ ca, nivṛttiṁ ca (BG 16.7). So this is required. Pravṛtti and nivṛtti, to know.
Dr. Patel: And that is necessity... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish.
Guest (5): But God knows before creating jīvas(?) and everything that they will start wars and take...
Prabhupāda: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation.
Guest (5): But why should He create them in the first instance?
Prabhupāda: That is...
Guest (5): Knowing beforehand that they will...
Prabhupāda: That you will not understand unless you surrender to Kṛṣṇa. You are asking this question for the last so many years, and...
Guest (5): Ah, I have surrendered unto you. Now you explain this mystery.
Prabhupāda: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example.
Chandobhai: He has made a promise.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kaunteya pratijānīhi. He has not promised. He says Arjuna, that "You declare this." Because sometimes for His devotee He breaks His promise. But because His devotee Arjuna will promise, it will be never frustrated. "Oh, My devotee has promised." Therefore He says, kaunteya pratijānīhi, "You do this."
Dr. Patel:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
- kiṁ punar brāhmaṇaḥ puṇyā
- bhaktā rājarṣayas tathā
- anityam asukhaṁ lokam
- imaṁ prāpya bhajasva mām
- (BG 9.33)
Prabhupāda: This is the conclusion, bhajasva mām. Again bhajana.
Dr. Patel: The highest...
Prabhupāda: Bhajasva mām. Again He's saying, bhajasva mām.
Prabhupāda: Let us understand it. Don't be anxious to go forward. This is the..., that... Suppose a man declares himself that "I am avatāra." So intelligent man should test him, how he is avatāra. We accept Kṛṣṇa or Lord Rāmacandra for their uncommon activities. But what is the uncommon activities, so many avatāras? Simply being praised by a group of persons. That's all. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Paśyādityān vasūn rudrān aśvinau marutas tathā (BG 11.6).
Prabhupāda: Now, first of all, he's saying that paśyādityān. Ādityān, plural number. Not only one, plural number. Ādityān means the Sūrya...
Dr. Patel: Sūrya and all those twelve sons.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, ādityān. So here they cannot estimate the influence of one Āditya, and here he is showing all the Ādityas.
Indian man: Kṛṣṇa has also declared...
Dr. Patel: For personal communication...
Indian man: Kṛṣṇa says that I am both personal, impersonal, and I am above that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That imperson does not mean that He is not spiritually person. Impersonal means He does not become... That... This description of person, they are not these material persons.
Chandobhai: Ah, then it's all right. Spiritual personality, everyone believes. That's correct. Then there is no rift. Spiritual personality... (break)
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, avyaktaṁ vyaktim āpannaṁ manyante mām abuddhayaḥ (BG 7.24). They, these Māyāvādīs, they think, "Originally the Absolute Truth is avyakta. Now He has assumed, Kṛṣṇa, the form, accepting a body of māyā." This is called Māyāvāda. Abuddhayaḥ. They have no intelligence that spiritually the Lord is always vyakti, a person. Either Nārāyaṇa, Viṣṇu, Kṛṣṇa, any way, He is always person.
Prabhupāda: He is in the heart of a dog also. Then dog is also Kṛṣṇa. So why one should go to the temple? He can worship his dog at home. If this logic is all right. (break) ...the verdict of the Rāmakrishna mission, "You can worship whatever you like. That is God." And therefore they have manufactured this word, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (break) Jāta-karma-saṁskāra, saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformatory method, begins before the birth. Before the birth, when the father and mother have sex, that is called garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. That is also another ceremony. It is not a hidden fact. So saṁskārad bhaved dvijaḥ. Otherwise it is birth like cats and dogs. That is Vedic civlization, saṁskāra before the birth and immediately after the birth, then one after another. This is called jata-karma; then nāma-karma; then when he is grown boy, upanayana-saṁskāra, dīkṣā-saṁskāra; then when he is grown up and marriage... Marriage is also another saṁskāra. In this way there are daśa-vidha-saṁskāra. So unless one goes through all the saṁskāras, he is not accepted as higher caste. He is śūdra. In a brāhmaṇa family, if the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not taken, so it is said that immediately the whole family becomes śūdra, no more brāhmaṇas. Then where is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is going on? Nobody takes care of garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. Still, they are declaring that "I am brāhmaṇa." Therefore the conclusion is kālau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "Everyone is śūdra." (break) ...no education. Still, one is called paṇḍitji. What is the meaning of this "paṇḍitji?" If he is not learned, then why do you call him paṇḍitji? (laughing) (break) That paṇḍiya is also another form of paṇḍita.
Prabhupāda: We are criticizing strongly in our paper. (break) ...command a position. If you manufacture government like that, it will never be capable.
Girirāja: "But it's said in all authentic, revealed scriptures, wherein it is declared that the purpose of civilized human life is to live together in peace and harmony so that everyone can advance progressively in spiritual life." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...purpose of life. But they do not know what is the purpose of life. They have taken the idea of cats and dogs, simply sense gratification. Now, where, how there will be good government. (break) ...all leniency to the Mohammedans to get vote. That's a fact. (break) Mahābhārata, anywhere, or Rāmāyaṇa, you'll never find a woman is elected on the topmost post.
Pañcadraviḍa: ...vegetables are also alive.
Prabhupāda: No, everyone... We are not talking of everyone. We are talking of you. You love God. So why you are killing? No, killing... There is open declaration, "Thou shall not kill." So you are deliberately disobeying. Then where is the love?
Pañcadraviḍa: "But even if I become vegetarian, still, I will..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not questioned. God says that you shall not kill. But you are killing. Where is your love? You cannot argue with God. Then you do not love. You cannot put your argument, logic, "What God has said I must do." That is not...
Pañcadraviḍa: "But God did not mean us not to eat. We must eat."
Prabhupāda: God did not... That means you have to eat only meat.
Prabhupāda: ...double feature is not understood by the Māyāvādīs. If Kṛṣṇa has created the whole, so why he should be separate? He is not separate, still separate. (break) ...regularly this book Kṛṣṇa, he will be liberated, simply by reading this book.
Girirāja: (break) "...narration of the Kāliya serpent and his punishment will need fear no more the envious activities of snakes. The Lord also declared, 'If one takes a bath in the Kāliya lake where My cowherd boyfriends and I have bathed, or if one, fasting for a day, offers oblations to the forefathers from the water of this lake, he will be relieved from all kinds of sinful reaction.' " (break)
Bhāgavata: ...actually are devotees or how do they become demons? Are they devotees? Obviously Kāliya is... Just like Jaya and Vijaya, they were devotees. And due to some offense, then they became demons and they fought with Kṛṣṇa to satisfy Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is living in this material world is a demon. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Richard Webster: Well, I don't think they are restricted now.
Prabhupāda: No, it is going on. In India I know. They are selling sugar at two annas, four annas a pound, or seer, outside, and India, it is four rupees. What is this nonsense? This is going on. They want to import some war materials or something else, therefore they want export exchange. So they are sacrificing the convenience of the local people for export exchange. These things are going on. These politicians, they create an atmo... Therefore I say the head of the state, they must be clean. But they are all motivated. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. Generally politician has got a particular motive behind him. And when he cannot pull on they declare war. That Pakistan. Pakistan, since the beginning of Pakistan they could not make any economic condition very sound. But when the people are too much agitated, they declare war with India.
Dhanañjaya: I was reading in the newspaper that a few days ago India exploded a nuclear bomb, an atomic bomb, underground. This was the first step. And they have declared that this was used for peaceful reasons, in order to develop...
Prabhupāda: There was a cartoon. When I... One leader is approached for food, that "We are in scarcity of food." The leader says, "Of course, it is very difficult to assure you for food grains. But from next week you will have television." (laughter) Next week you will have television. So these improvements are going on, television, but they are starving. This is going on. Advancement of knowledge and learning is going on in discovering television, but there is no food. This is the mismanagement of the leaders. Dishonest. There is enough food. Punjab still produces food grains. Bengal still produces rice, but they are stocked by government men, and they are mishandling. They are lying on the station for dispatch, but they will not be dispatched. They are rotting. Rainy season spoiled the whole stock; still, they are not dispatched. Official: "There is no dispatch order. There is no wagons available." Simply mismanagement or bribe. This is going on. And people are suffering.
Bhagavān: Print more paper.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. This is the civilization, cheating, bluffing. That's all. They don't care for the citizens. And as soon as there is some agitation, they declare war, so that they can be engaged, attention is diverted. This is going on.
Bhagavān: Now with paper money, any country can print any other country's money.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore inflation. Suppose I am an enemy. I print dollars like that, and distribute. So the inflation is there. And the price is increased. If you get money for nothing, you will be prepared to pay anything. Suppose there is one mound of rice. I have got these printed notes. You are offering ten rupees. I will say twenty rupees.
Yogeśvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupāda: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all.
Satsvarūpa: "You are calling us animals?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are animals. Yes. If they are sensible, they can understand, now, what is the difference. A dog is thinking, "I am very stout and strong dog." He has, on the basis of his body. And another man, a big American, thinks, "We are very big nation, powerful nation." So what is the difference between these? The basic principle is there, the bodily consciousness. Therefore it is animalism. Is it not? The basic principle has not changed. Suppose a pickpocket... The same story, Alexander the Great and the thief. He was arrested, and when he convinced him that "What is the difference between you and me? You have got good military strength. You are conquering. And I have got my knife and another thing. I am just going and plundering. So you are also plundering, I am plundering. Why you have caught me? What right you have got to punish me? Because we are the same. You are doing in a larger scale, I am doing in a small scale. That is the difference." So he was set free, "Yes." Alexander the Great, he was sensible man, "Yes, what I am doing? The same thing in a bigger scale that's all." So these rascal, actually, they are animals, but they are declaring advancement. What advancement? The same thing: eating, sleeping, sex and defending. That is animal... The dogs also do like that. They also eat, they also sleep, they have sex life. Now they are coming to the dog's life. A dog, just like street, they have sex life. They are coming, advance. This is advancement, that "We have become now pure dog. So long it was hidden, now we are open." This is the civilization, animal civilization.
Dhanañjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite. "You are drunkard; no drink. You are illicit sex hunters; no illicit sex." So I am just speaking opposite, from the beginning of my preaching. So why you are coming? So if you stick to your position, real human civilization, people will come, gradually. Because they have got the sense. When we say others are animals, demons, we don't say whimsically, capriciously, no. On the basis of sound knowledge. Therefore our declaration is completely right. We are not mental speculators, that I say some gentleman, "You are animal." No. I see, I know, that he is animal. Therefore I say. A man is running his motorcar, (makes sound) rarararara, and a dog is running. We don't see any difference, although he is on the motorcar. We don't find any difference. He is as good as the dog. Unnecessarily he is running.
Satsvarūpa: The pure devotee gives the chance to everyone, but only a few approach. So still the question is how can they become interested in the pure devotee?
Prabhupāda: No, this is the..., that you do it. If they do not do it, then who will come? This declaration is there, that "If you do this, then you can be interested." But if you do not, then you go on with your own business. A similar... The same things Kṛṣṇa, sarva-dharmān parit... mām ekam. Kṛṣṇa is demanding that you do it, "Surrender unto Me." The śāstra also says, "Surrender unto the representative of Kṛṣṇa," mahīyasām. But if they do not do, what can be done? Just see this sparrow. The sex is always accompanying, any time ready. The pigeons, any time ready. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. That is the only attachment for this material world, viṣaya. Whole world is fighting for this viṣaya. "I must have nice eating, I must have nice sleeping, I must have very good sex, and I should be defended by bank balance, by military soldiers, by police force, by atomic weapons." This is going on.
Prabhupāda: (laughter) But he could not defend that he has got brain, yes. So however these men may declare very, very big, we know that "You have no brain. You are as good as animal." Therefore Bhāgavata says, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ: (SB 2.3.19) "These classes of men are no better than the dogs, hogs, camels and asses." Bhāgavata school will not approve of these rascals as human being. They are so strict. If one is not on the platform of God consciousness, he is not human being. He is animal. That's a fact. But we should not hate the animals because our mission is to bring them to the human consciousness. You cannot expect that your audience should be all highly brain. No. Preaching is required because they have no brain. Therefore your duty is to tolerate all difficulties and bring them to the sense of brain. Not that "These people are animals; we shall not mix with them." Then you have no missionary activities. Then you sit down in a place and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Just see. It is a country... People are not bad. I have seen. They are very nice. The government, the rascals, a few men, who are controlling the government, they are all rogues and thieves. The same thing in India. Everywhere mass population, they are innocent. These rascals made them..., misleading. In Russia I have seen. The mass people, they are very nice. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are innocent. In India also. The Pakistan happened due to these politicians. The Hindus, Muslims, they are innocent. They don't fight. These politicians engaged them to fight artificially for their political ambition. The wars also declared nowadays, on account of the rascal politicians. The people do not want it. (break) ...to the Indian railway strike, have you got any news?
Bhagavān: It ceased the other day.
Karandhara: They made some agreement with the union.
Prabhupāda: Government made agreement.
Prabhupāda: So he condemned, "No, no. I don't care for your Vedas." So he defied Vedic injunction. Because otherwise, he could not establish his theory of nonviolence. The violence, in a certain way, is recommended in the Vedas. So if he says, "No violence," then it is against Vedas. Therefore he had to declare, "No, no, I don't follow the Vedic injunction." And because he did not, he publicly declared that "I don't follow Vedic injunction," therefore he is taken as atheist. Atheist means who does not take the authority of the Vedas. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam. But he did it. He is all-powerful. He can do it. Why? Sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. We worship him like that. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa. From philosophical point of view, he is taken as atheist. But we Vaiṣṇava we know that He is God. He is God, incarnation of God.
Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa says, and He is confirmed by Vyāsadeva, Asita, Nārada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says "I am avatāra, I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the ācāryas, therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. When mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience.
Yogeśvara: He says to accommodate, to accommodate them.
Prabhupāda: No accommodation. No. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and Ramakrishna says that "Whatever path you select, it is all right." So it is completely against Bhagavad-gītā principles. And, and he said... His name was Gadadhara Chatterjee. So at the time of his death, he declared to Vivekananda that "I am the same Kṛṣṇa, I am the same Rāma." So they believed in that, without any evidence, and they started this Ramakrishna mission. This is the history. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that he recognizes that, and he says it is one interpretation, as you have your interpretation, as there are many. He doesn't think that these interpretations are as important as the art of knowing how to live, which is, he thinks, the essence of all religion, how to live. He says the interpretation is not so...
Prabhupāda: But he thinks Ramakrishna lived very well than others? (French)
Yogeśvara: I think one... If I've understood, he's insisting on one point. That is the that the public opinion is actually the most important thing, just as this Ramakrishna expressed the spirit of the Gītā in a way that was most popular, was most favorable to the public.
Prabhupāda: Who is that public? Amongst you, who accepts Ramakrishna.
Prabhupāda: They're... And, on account of his being so, taking the risk, he is immediately very dear to Kṛṣṇa. That is declared in the Bhagavad-gītā, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ (BG 18.69). "Anyone who is trying to broadcast My message, My glory, he immediately, there is no more dearer than him anyone." So one should take this risk.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates the devotee when he accepts voluntary adversity.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: Yesterday, you said that Kṛṣṇa appreciates when a devotee accepts voluntary adversity.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Like the kings who gave up everything to live an ascetic life.
Paramahaṁsa: But how do we know what, how do we know when we should accept this adversity? Sometimes people artificially...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Adversity, not always to accept. But you have to follow the regulative principle enjoined in the śāstras. That is, in one sense... Suppose you are accustomed to certain type of, standard of living, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake, you have to give it up. That kind of adversity. That is not actually adversity, but he thinks that "I have taken this voluntary..." What is this, electric? So not a single useful tree. These trees are no fruits, no flowers.
Prabhupāda: The big two wars of the world happened only on account of this industry. Do you know that? The cause is the big, big industry. Germany industrial, they produce goods. They must have market. But when they go to sell, there is no market. Britishers will not allow to sell them. The Britisher will take, purchase from them, and stamp it "Made in England" and sell it. And this is the cause of two big war. Therefore German declare twice war. Disaster.
Bali Mardana: Police state.
Prabhupāda: Police state? And why they are declaring Commonwealth and, British Commonwealth. So if it is governed by the police, how it is Commonwealth? There should be very strong agitation. And all the Hindus will join. So who will organize it? Don't make it childish. It is very serious. (pause) Police should have taken task when the rules were broken by Mahādeva. Why they did not take action in that time? They did not say anything. Police, if there is discrepancy, violation of the rules, they should have taken immediate action. Why they did not take? Now they have manufactured by conspiracy that "This movement should be stopped. Now take this plea." This is going on.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: And that's a fact. There is no happiness. We are declaring, "That's all right, but if there is little happiness, that is in America." So you are favored by Kṛṣṇa. Utilize this favor of Kṛṣṇa in glorifying Kṛṣṇa. Then it is success. Avicyuto arthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad uttama-śloka, to become extraordinary in any branch of facilities, that requires austerities. So when one has acquired that, he should engage it for glorifying the Supreme. Yad-uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). (break) ...with the bag. (break) ...within the box.
Jayatīrtha: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...chance should be given during childhood. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). This bhāgavata-dharma, that is our idea in Gurukula. Learn Kṛṣṇa consciousness from the very beginning of childhood.
Prabhupāda: How it is scientific? Life is already there. Not that the life production is depending on your future scientific research. The life is already going there, hundreds and thousands and millions. You say that you do not know. Why you are claiming that "In future we shall know"? There is no need of your knowing, it is already going on. You do not know. That is your position. And still, you are declaring yourself as scientist. You are misleading. You can make a fool's paradise, that is another thing. But you do not know at the present moment, but the things are going on. Life is being produced without your knowledge. So you admit that you have no knowledge. And without having knowledge, you are declaring yourself as scientist—how much cheating it is. It is not that it is depending on your future knowledge. It is already going on. Life is being produced. So if you think that in future, by chemical combination you will produce life, so that chemical composition is already there, going on. So you have to find out who is that scientist, not that chemical composition. Who is that scientist who is producing so many lives and chemicals? That is real intelligence.
Nitāi: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahmān, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original. You are the unborn and the all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: Then? Purport? (break) Next verse?
Nitāi: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the gods nor the demons, O Lord, know Thy personality."
Prabhupāda: Now here is the Arjuna's understanding, that "I accept You in total." Now some rascals are proclaiming that all the Bhagavad-gītās, they are, most of them are interpretation. But Arjuna says that "I accept everything what You have said." So whom you will accept, Arjuna or some rascal who is speaking that "There are so many interpolation. They can be rejected"? Whom you will accept as authority? Arjuna says that "I accept whatever You have said in toto." If you accept Arjuna because he has heard from Kṛṣṇa, then you accept Kṛṣṇa or you understand Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That you discuss, how these sources, how their maintenance should be... But BBT is already declared. It is meant for two purposes. Now you find out how the sources. That is business of GBC.
Jayatīrtha: That we can discuss afterwards?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Śrīla Prabhupāda...
Prabhupāda: The BBT, that, it should be: how the complaints should be stopped, and if they have no other income, then how things should be managed. That is... GBC should discuss.
Prabhupāda: But only for furniture and apartment, if you forget yourself and act in such a way, then next life you become a dog and lie on the street, then what is the use of your furniture? You are getting next life. First of all, you understand that, that "This is not the end of my life. I am eternal. I am changing my body." So it is described as dress. Now you may be dressed like a royal king. And next dress may be different. "May be" means it must be. And for the examples of the dresses—so many living entities. So you must be cautious that "What kind of dress I am going to have next?" (break) Where is that science? Where is that school, college? If you remain only confident that "I'll go on with this dress perpetually," that is not the fact. You'll have to change your dress. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). But we have no knowledge that "What kind of dress I am going to have?" It is a fact. I have already changed dress. I had a child dress. I had a boy's dress. I had a young man dress. Now I have got old man's dress. Now, Kṛṣṇa says that, "This also, you'll have to change." So why I am not inquiring "What kind of dress I am going to have?" and "How I am changing this dress?" So young man doesn't want to become old man. That is a fact. But if a young man says, "No, no, I don't want old man's dress," will it be accepted? Nature will say, "No, you must accept." Where is the remedy for this? Why these rascals do not understand that "I am fully under the control of nature's law, and I am declaring free.
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hm? I am in the prison house, and the prison superintendent is controlling me fully, and if I say, "I don't care for anyone," what is this nonsense? Even in ordinary life, if somebody says, "I don't care for government laws. I shall do whatever I like," is it very good sense? Similarly, you are fully under the control of material nature, and you are declaring independence. You should, rather, consider that "Why I have been put under the control of material nature? I don't want it. I don't want to be diseased. But why disease is forced upon me? I don't want to become old man. Why it is forced upon me? I don't want to die. Why death is forced upon me?" These should be the proper questions. But instead of questioning this, he's thinking, "I am independent." How much foolish he is.
Prabhupāda: Nobody follows. We do not follow... There are so many... Why they are struggle? Why they struggle? Why do you fight? Because you are all thieves—you want to steal God's gold-therefore you fight. Why do you fight? Why you declare war from one nation to another? Because you are all thieves and you want to steal God's gold. Therefore there is fight. Why do you claim, "This is America, my land"? Is it your land? Have your forefathers created this? Why you falsely claim like that? What is the answer? You have stolen from another party, Red Indians, and you are now claiming, "We are the proprietor." You are thieves. You are not even gentlemen. What do you think?
Pañcadraviḍa: But they say... They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?"
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: They say, "God is up in heaven. What does He need with gold?"
Prabhupāda: "God is up in heaven"? What is that?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say God...
Prabhupāda: Because the master is in heaven, or in some other place, therefore we shall steal?
Tripurāri: They say, "God gave us the land to do what we want with."
Prabhupāda: No. God did not give you the land.
Prabhupāda: Why not? Yes. But they, they are so rascals, they throw bomb anywhere.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Especially atom bomb.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that because civilians are also responsible for declaring war, because the parliament is the representation of the people...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karma.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)
Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.
Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.
Prabhupāda: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.
Paramahaṁsa: They will introduce it.
Prabhupāda: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.
Prabhupāda: In Thailand?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Prabhupāda: This is practical. You are maintaining huge slaughterhouses, regular killing. So, you took instruction from Christ, "Thou shall not kill." You first of all killed him, and then the killing process is going on among the animals, and declaring wars every now and then. So the killing business is going on regularly. In your regular life also. You are maintaining big, big slaughterhouses. Then when you accepted the instruction of Christ? That I want to know. What is that date?
Carol: Do you see any hope for the world? We seem to be moving towards destruction.
Prabhupāda: No, my... You just explain.
Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead people towards God?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent."
Prabhupāda: And in the record album he has given this picture. So you are intelligent girl, you study about this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will benefit you. The anthropology you may get some degree, adoration. What is the benefit? Jaya. (Carol leaves) They enquire why I have come to the West. If I enquire that two thousand year ago you have been taught that "Thou shall not kill," and your business is only to kill. I have come to enquire from you, "What is your answer?" How you have become civilized, that you cannot accept one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are declaring yourself as Christian and civilized. This is my question. Answer it. In two thousand years, first of all you began killing Christ. Never mind, still, two thousand years past, you could not stop killing? You could not accept the first instruction. What kind of civilized man?
Jayadharma: Sometimes they say, Prabhupāda, that Jesus meant just...
Prabhupāda: Meant?
Jayadharma: ...just human beings.
Prabhupāda: All right. That means you are killer of human beings. THat means, in the beginning, you are all killers of human beings. And therefore you killed Jesus Christ. That is not very good qualification. Killer of human being... He said "Thou shall not kill." Where he says that "Thou shall not kill human beings"? That is your interpretation.
Prabhupāda: ...if there is government laws, if you do not know it and you act independently, then you are making your life risky. So this is the case of the government law, and what to speak of God's law, nature's law, how strict it is. You can avoid government's law, but you cannot avoid nature's law. That is not possible. So that is the defect of the modern civilization: they do not know how nature is working, and they are keeping themself in ignorance, and they are suffering, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one body after another. And if he becomes a tree, stand up for five thousand years. And we have to pass through all these stages. He has come to the human form of body. Still he neglects. He continues suffering. They are mad after sense enjoyment; and accepting different material bodies, that means suffering. As soon as you accept a material body, this is suffering. But the suffering of the trees is more suffering. In a forlorn place he stand up for five thousand years and tolerate all the blast, wind, scorching heat, water.
He doesn't know that "I may become a tree like this." Then he must be... Why there are varieties of life? This is different type of punishment for different kinds of sinful activities. And he doesn't care for sinful activities. He got the human form of body, he doesn't care. Saintly persons, they are coming as Caitanya Mahāprabhu or Buddha or Christ. They are warning, "You do not do this." No, they will do it. So who is responsible for his sufferings? He is responsible. And so long he has got this short duration of life, fifty or sixty years or utmost hundred years, he is thinking, "I am free. Whatever I want, I can do," and making life risky. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. He is not independent. He knows that. Still, he will declare independence and suffer. This is the position. He is not independent; that he knows very well. But still, he will act independently.
Prabhupāda: Some of the fools, not all fools, but some of the fools declaring themselves as scientists, "There is no God." We can (indistinct).
Jesuit: Let me see if I can understand what you mean by God.
Prabhupāda: God means all-powerful, the great. You say also, "The great."
Jesuit: I'd say all-powerful, omnipotent, the great, yes.
Prabhupāda: That is God.
Jesuit: The thing is like Augustine said, that "The heart is restless until it rests in You, our God." And I think that's...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't teach them that I am God. I never taught. I always teach them I am servant of God, you are also servant. And they accept it. Actually that is our position. This is bluff. When somebody says "I am God," that is bluff, cheating. We protest very vehemently against the declaration that "I am God." No. Nobody can become God. God is one.
Prabhupāda: In the civilized human society there is some system of religion. So that system of religion means try to understand God. Religion means the law given by God. So civilized human beings, they are trying to understand God and His laws. That is called religion. Now the difference between dog and me is that I can try to understand what is God, what is my position; the dog cannot understand. Dog means the animals. They cannot understand. So that is the difference between a human being and a dog. If we give up religion or the method to understand God and our relationship with Him, then we will remain dog. Then we remain dog. We are not human being. So at the present moment the so-called human society, civilized human society, is giving up the conception of God, understanding God, especially the Communist party. They are openly declaring that "We don't believe in God." But those who are not Communists, they, lip sympathy, they say that "Yes, we believe in God," but actually they do not believe.
Director: Well, say two hundred years ago people to survive the winter had to kill the...
Prabhupāda: No, no. You take your mother's milk. You take your mother's milk, and when the mother cannot supply milk you kill her. What is this? Is that humanity? And nature is so strong, for this injustice, sinful, you must suffer. You must be prepared to suffer. So there will be war, and wholesale will be killed. Nature will not tolerate this. They do not know all these, how nature is working, how God is managing. They do not know God. This is the defect of the society. They do not care what is God. "We are scientists, we can do everything." What you can do? Can you stop death? Nature says, "You must die. You are Professor Einstein, that's all right. You must die." Why the Einstein and other scientists they do not discover medicine or process? "No, no, we shall not die." So this is the defect of the society. They are completely under the control of nature, and they are declaring independence. Ignorance. Ignorance. So we want to reform this.
Prabhupāda: That is God's supremacy. "If I don't give you water to drink, you cannot drink." And still, they are independent. Just see the fun. Even water, three-fourths of water, you cannot use a drop of water for drinking unless God gives you. He creates the cloud and give you. That is not your arrangement. You cannot do. Still they are independent. Jale kali-vāsa, nāme tila phyāsa. Sometimes sailors,(?) for being thirsty, they died in water. How they declare independence from Him? "There is no God. There is no authority. We are independent. We can do whatever we like." Childish.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of argument if they have stopped? That is failure. Don't talk nonsense anymore. Phalena paricīyate. By the result we have to understand. Your result is you are failure. Then what is the use of talking nonsense? Stop this nonsense.
Ambarīṣa: It's like five years ago they declared a war on cancer, and they spent billions and billions of dollars on it, and just the other day they now said that it was a complete failure, that the disease has just kept on growing and growing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot stop even cancer disease and you are controlling nature. Just see their (?) false, puffed up. They cannot control one disease, and they are going to control nature. We have to believe that.
Yogi Bhajan: We are starting a parent organization for our kids. We invite the mothers, parents, ask them to stay, and send them back. Idea is basic, and the fundamental idea is: what you are doing is God's will, these people who are following you is God's will, and those who will receive it as God's will... But it is not that everybody sees that God will.
Prabhupāda: No. God's will is open. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). God says that "You always think of Me. You just become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your respect to Me." This is God's will. "And if you do this, then you are coming back to Me." It is clearly said. God's will is declared. There is no secret.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. And he had made a replica. He had made a small replica of the universe with all the planets floating and so on. He had made a small replica, and it was sitting in his house. And his assistant came one day, his atheist assistant, he came and he says, "Oh, who has made this wonderful replica of the universe?" And Sir Isaac Newton, who was sitting there reading, he says, "Oh, no one." And the man said, "What do you mean no one?" He says... He didn't look up. He just says, "No one made it." And he kept reading and the guy, the assistant, the atheist, he became very perturbed. He kept saying, "What do you mean, you fool? Obviously somebody made it. He must have great intelligence, and I'd like to meet the fellow who created this." And Sir Isaac Newton put down his book and says, "My friend, this is but a small replica of the universe, and you're the one who is always declaring that no one has created the universe. And now you're declaring to me that somebody must have created that. I'm saying it just happened, but you don't believe me. So how can I accept your logic when you say that all of this just happened?" (break)
Prabhupāda: ...temple is very nice. (break) ...is also very nice.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...lunch time.
Prabhupāda: That information we are giving. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, after giving up this material, he is not coming any more with this material body. This is our philosophy. And if you again die and again come another material body, so what is the use of this education? You cannot dictate that "My mother nature, don't make me a dog next life." She is not subjected to your dictation. She is subjected by Kṛṣṇa's dictation. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). She is not your servant, you are servant of the nature. So you are declaring independence, but you are servant of the material nature. That they are not thinking. Unnecessarily they are thinking independence. What is the nonsense independence? You are dependent on the laws of nature, and you are thinking independence. How much foolishness it is. This is psychology. They are wrongly thinking how to correct them. Is it not? Are they not wrongly thinking? Everyone is thinking, "I am independent. I can do whatever I like." How much foolish he is.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. (break) We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A.
Prabhupāda: Yes, very powerful. Now she is going to hell, so powerful. She is so powerful, now she is going to hell.
Kāśīrāma: The United Nations has declared this year International Woman's Year so that all the women can gain more liberation from the bondage of being under the supremacy of man.
Prabhupāda: But how to get liberation, not being pregnant?
Kāśīrāma: That's one of the programs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let them be liberated, not being pregnant. The man will be pregnant equally. (laughter) Where is that liberation? Can they make any resolution, "Now, man has to become pregnant also equally."
Prabhupāda: Yuddhe cāpalāyanam. A kṣatriya should be so trained up, when there is fight, he must come out, forward. Not that he will sit down in his secluded place and poor man will fight. No. He should come forward as leader, "Come on." That is kṣatriya quality, yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Formerly there was fight, but the leaders, they would come face to face first of all. And if the leader, one of the leader is killed-yuddha means one party must be vanquished, fight—then the war is finished. The main person, chief person is now killed, so there is no more war. So yuddhe cāpalāyanam. Those who are taking part in administration, in politics, they must be of this quality, very chivalrous, brave. They have to learn all these quality. Just like the first-class men, they are being trained up in self-controlling, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. And these second-class men, they should be trained up how to fight. Because fight will there be. We do not place this bogus idea that there will be no fight. No. Then fight will be there so long the human society is there. But what for one should fight? That training should be there. Not unnecessarily. In the history of India we find there were two fights: one with Rāvaṇa and another the Kurukṣetra fight. (break) Not at the whims of the leaders. He has got some idea and declare war and engage people.
Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. But the ideal is different. Ideal is that man must be first-class and he must be responsible to take care of the woman, and she should be given all protection, all necessities. That is the duty of man. Just like father takes the charge of his daughter, similarly, husband should take charge of the woman. And similarly, elderly sons also took charge of the woman. The father never exploits the daughter. He gives all protection. That is the duty of the husband also. When she is grown up, she cannot remain under the protection of father. She is given, therefore, to a suitable boy to take charge. But the charge is the same, to give protection, all comforts. And because there is no first-class man to take charge of the woman, they are declaring independence. All the men are doing that. They keep girlfriend, make her pregnant, and go away, goes away.
Brahmānanda:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ
- (BG 9.32)
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break) ...than great jñānīs and yogis."
Jagadīśa: But this point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult to understand, and it will only be possible for a very few persons to grasp this truth. Therefore you are encouraging us to introduce the proper social system so that gradually people may understand. Otherwise they could never accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first-class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness.
Jayatīrtha: But it says in the Declaration of Independence—this is part of it here—it says that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." So they admitted that there was God.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jayatīrtha: The founders of the nation admitted that there was God, but now they won't admit. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...already very much attraction for this material world. That is called māyā. And when we are involved with these things, material prosperity, then we become more involved. On account of our material attachment, we are getting repetition of birth and death in different forms of life, and these attractions are making us more and more involved. māyāra vaibhava. People are becoming illusioned, "I am American. My country is so rich. I shall live here." But you cannot live. He is preparing for another body. So therefore Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says, anitya soṁsāre, moha janamiya, jība ke karaye gadha. Anityad means we shall not be able to stay. Unnecessarily, we are becoming involved in this material world. Now, those who built up this nation, where they have gone, nobody can say. Because after this body is fallen, where he is being carried, nobody knows. He is carried by his work, fruitive activities.
Prabhupāda: Death is already declared that "I am death." Kṛṣṇa says. So there is no question of.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a description in the Bhāgavatam of Dhruva Mahārāja when he's fighting all of those demons, that he wasn't frightened at all.
Hrdayananda: So the devotee sees Kṛṣṇa in death also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa is everything. Without Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be anything. Janmādyasya yataḥ. The example is given: Just like the rope. Somebody is taking it is snake. He is frightened. And one knows this is rope, he is not frightened. So actually the one thing—God is one—He is distributed in so many manifestations. So one realizes that it is God. By His energy He is manifested in so many forms. So why he should be frightened?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a uttama-adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But everyone wants sunshine. Why in one place denied, and one place there is sunshine? You are not free. Even though you want sunshine, there is no sunshine. So how you feel free? You bring sunshine. But that is not happening. There is superior arrangement. So to accept that superior arrangement, that is real business, not to declare freedom falsely. That is not possible. If I say, "I am free from the law-abiding process, law given by government; I am free from the law of the government," that is not possible. If you become outlaw, then you will be arrested and put into jail. So what is the use of declaring that "I am free from the government laws"? There is no freedom. Whatever little freedom is given to us, if you utilize it properly, that is very nice. If we unnecessarily declare that "I am free from any obligation," that is madman's proposal. That is the mistake of the modern man, that, especially in the Western countries, unnecessarily they are declaring freedom in so many ways. Unnecessarily. He is not free, but he is declaring. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, I think, or in some other. No? Prema-vivarta. Yes, there is a book, Prema-vivarta
- piśācī paile yena mati-cchanna haya
- māyā-grasta jīvera se daśā upajāya
The freedom is declared by persons who are completely under the clutches of māyā. He declares freedom. And he is so much haunted by the ghost māyā that he thinks his bondage as freedom.
Satsvarūpa: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people, accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge,..."
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge, path of knowledge.
Satsvarūpa: "... and what is contrary to these is ignorance."
Prabhupāda: That's it. There are eighteen or twenty items of knowledge. The human society is not interested with those eighteen items, and they are simply interested in so-called economic development, technology, mental speculation. That is ignorance. That is not knowledge. They do not know what is knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is another thing. They, "If you believe that Lord Śiva is the Supreme, why don't you go and establish? Why you are sitting here and declaring jagad-guru?" Their purpose was that "Either you worship Śiva or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter, but if you would have done something that would have spread the Hindu conception of... But you are not doing there anything. Why do you call yourself jagad-guru?" (Hindi) "A jackal is the king in the forest." And they do not go outside. Even Gaṅgeśvarānanda went; he came back disappointed. What they will do? Cinmayananda goes so many times. What does he do? (Hindi) (break) He is so big. What does he have? What he has done? This thing going on. Phalena paricīyate. One has to be studied by the result, not by talking. It is not that Caitanya Mahāprabhu entrusted the subject of preaching only unto me. Why they do not go, the gosvāmīs, swamis, big, big sannyāsīs, and stalwart? Why they are rotting within this area?
Indian man (2): They know only how to criticize for nothing.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the meaning of that criticize? First of all you come to the stage.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Karmana baddhyate. They do not know. Poor fund of knowledge. Rascals. Mūḍha. Kṛṣṇa comes to inform these rascals, "You are all duṣkṛtina, mūḍha." That is Kṛṣṇa's declaration. Na maṁ duṣkṛtino mū... "Therefore surrender unto Me." This is the whole purpose.
Indian Man (2):
- bahūni me vyatītāni
- janmāni tava cārjuna
- tāny ahaṁ veda sarvāṇi
- na tvaṁ vettha parantapa
Prabhupāda: That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is... Birth after birth, he is friend of Kṛṣṇa, nitya-siddha. Still, he forgets, what to speak of others. Bahūni me janmāni tava cārjuna. That means, "We are friends always. So you also appear; I also appear. But the difference is you forget; I don't forget. That is difference between you and Me. You also don't forget. That is for limited time. But the consciousness is the same. Only difference is that My consciousness is unlimited; your consciousness is limited. That is difference." This understanding is ahaṁ brahmāsmi. My consciousness and Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, that is fact. But Kṛṣṇa's consciousness is everywhere; my consciousness is within myself. That's all. The Māyāvādī interprets, yena sarvam idaṁ tataḥ: "One who is expanded everywhere, pervaded." But I am not pervading everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Their Indian culture is that some of them speak Hindi, that's all. (laughter) This is their Ind...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: (break) ...last night that they're starting a foundation, Mahatma Gandhi Foundation, here, to teach Indian culture, and he said, "Not just the Bhagavad-gītā, but Indian culture." You mentioned that we should take Indian culture directly from Bhagavad-gītā, not from here, not little from here, and little from there. (break) You give the example, Prabhupāda, that to fight with a declared enemy is very easy, but to fight with someone who is playing as a friend, although he is your enemy, is more difficult.
Prabhupāda: He is more dangerous than Buddha. What is that big building?
Cyavana: They are building now a prison on the point there, a new prison.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He couldn't reply.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you have no conception of God, how can you deny or accept? Remain fool, that's all. That is the difficulty. When you ask them, whole world, "What is the conception of God?" they'll not be able to answer. Still, they will say there is no God. This is the foolishness going on all over the world. Actually they are not concerned with God. They accept the idea of God or so-called God for their material facilities. "O God, give us our daily bread. That's all. If You supply daily bread, then I accept You. Otherwise I reject You." This is their... When there is a war, Churchill will ask them to go, victory, "V": "Go and pray to God." God is order-supplier. And when they declare war, they do not consult God. When there is reverse condition they go to it. This is going on, that God means order-supplier. "Whatever I desire, if You are God then You supply me. Otherwise I reject You." What they will understand, intimate relationship with God, to serve Him as father, as mother, as friend? What they will understand, these rascals? It is not possible. They have no idea of God. Therefore they cannot understand. God is asking, sarva-dharmān parityajya. (BG 18.66) "What is this?" They cannot understand. Therefore they misinterpret.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That's all. Exploiting, that's all. This is their business. Just like Pakistan politicians, as soon as they cannot supply food, they declare war with India. The attention is diverted. Here also we have seen in the last war. When no man was joining, so in India, they created artificial famine. So for want of food they joined military. The government created a situation, purchased all the food grains and stocked. And when the price is very high the government opened controlled shop at high price. The people had no money; therefore they were obliged to join military. These polit..., demons, they are so dangerous, simply to keep their position they are doing all nefarious activities. Simply there is... Because they don't believe in the next birth, they are not afraid of sinful activities. They can do anything, "Whatever I like. There is no... This life is finished." That is the whole philosophy of the modern educated man, "There is no life." Big, big professors, they say like that, "There is no life after death." Therefore the Ārya-samājī rascal was: "That is Hindu belief." Why Hindu belief? Does the Mohammedan do not grow old? That answer he could not give. He is such a rascal. And at last he said that "I am God."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Let's say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, śūdras who are doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śūdras, that "You dig this well and take your food." That's all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government—"No, no. You cannot sell." Then he becomes angry: "Oh, all right." He declares war.
Prabhupāda: And after resurrection he had to go away to India.
Cyavana: Yes. That's 'cause they tried to kill him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if he had declared that "I am not dead," perhaps he would have been again crucified.
Cyavana: Yes. They would keep trying to kill him.
Prabhupāda: Because the people were so intelligent, they would not believe him, so out of fear he went away. "All right, stop my preaching. Come on. (laughs) Let me go to find some safe place." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So when they kill such brutally in the farm, the Britisher did not take any step?
Brahmānanda: Not very effective steps. They declared a state of emergency, and they brought soldiers here, and they had huge arrests. They had camps just outside of Nairobi, and they were arresting tens of thousands, huge camps. But the tactics that they would use, the Africans, the British soldiers couldn't...
Prabhupāda: They brought British soldiers or Indian soldiers?
Brahmānanda: I'm not sure.
Prabhupāda: British soldiers, so long, how they'll come? They were using Indian soldiers.
Prabhupāda: Taranti te. Yes. So this is the position. Therefore our propaganda is that "You take Kṛṣṇa and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and then you'll be happy." This is our propaganda. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We have to simply repeat what Kṛṣṇa has said. That's all. (aside:) Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) This time I have requested all Nairobi important friends that "Now you take sannyāsa and become guru. Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked everyone to become guru. amāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You have come to Africa. Now become their guru and deliver them." "Now, how shall I do it?" Yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa upadeśa: (CC Madhya 7.128) "Simply speak. Don't become very big upstart. Simply speak what Kṛṣṇa has done. That's all. You become guru." (Hindi) "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has said this. The meaning of this is this," as Kṛṣṇa left the meaning to be declared or understood by some fools and rascals. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God.
Prabhupāda: Just like America... (laughs) Americans have not even one per cent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here for a very rich man to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...
- bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ
- tayāpahṛta-cetasām
- vyavasāyātmikā-buddhiḥ
- samādhau na dhigacchati
- (BG 2.44)
(Hindi) Voluntarily sannyāsa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Mahārāja Bhārata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything, young wife, children, kingdom, whole world—gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairāgya. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja, (Hindi) as soon as the grandson, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the fact. (Hindi) Even Mahatma (Gandhi). He declared himself mahātmā. He is such a mahātmā that unless he was killed by Goli(?), he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared.
Indian man (3): What is your idea about the secularism preached by our government of India and the policy of secularism? What do they mean by that? That means they say that there is no place for religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana. As soon as there is no religion, the population-animal, that's all. That is going on. Because there was no religion, therefore the government has to declare emergency. (laughter) Because all animals. So they created first animals, then emergency. This is going on. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why emergency? If there is human being, then why emergency? All animals. To control the animals you require some special measure. This is the proof that they're animals. Otherwise why? Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is long, long ago said, dharmena hina paśubhiḥ samana: "When you give up religion, you are no better than animals."
Prabhupāda: This declaration of freedom is animal. Animal freedom.
Passerby: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you. They are struggling for false freedom. This is not freedom. This is becoming entangled. And when we voluntarily give up all freedom, "This is all nonsense! Kṛṣṇa, I surrender unto you." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān (BG 7.19), then he's really wise. When he fully surrenders to Kṛṣṇa.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is starting here also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. (break) ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate: (BG 3.27) "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything.
Indian man: No, my father is not my person.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is understood that I am person, my father is person, his father is person, and the supreme father is not a person. Just see. If the supreme father is not a person, then wherefrom these personal fathers came here? Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. "Mām"—this is person. The mūḍhas cannot understand that the supreme father is a person. Therefore Arjuna, at the, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā, he declared that "It is very, very difficult..." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hare Kṛṣṇa. "...to understand Your personality. It is very, very difficult." Arjuna has said. And he has accepted Him as person, puruṣaṁ śāśvatam: "You are eternally person." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramam, puruṣaṁ śāśvataṁ divyam ādyam (BG 10.12). These things are there. The real understanding is there. And he said, "This is.... This is accepted by Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Devala." Svayaṁ caiva: "And You are also speaking." Then where is the question of imperson? Hare Kṛṣṇa. And therefore He, Kṛṣṇa, says bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānvān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). "You are person; I surrender unto You"—this knowledge comes after many, many births of this impersonalist. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā (BG 7.19). "That great mahātmā is very rare." So one who believes and accepts the Supreme as person, he immediately becomes a mahātmā. Otherwise he remains durātmā.
Prabhupāda: That is called in Bengali, jaya mane apna morol.(?) Morol means the leader of the society, of the village. Here there are morol. So in the village nobody cares for him, and he declares that "I am morol."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That person is insane.
Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for him, and he is thinking that "great personality." Where is his greatness? Who knows him? Just see. So he is making a plan to declare himself a great personality.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Why they look inquisitive? No commentary. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Cent percent cheater beginning from the top. They have lost their own culture, Vedic civilization, and they are not competent to earn properly. They must be cheater. Beg, borrow, steal. They have lost their own culture; therefore they have no one honest. Formerly Indians were so honest that after one man's death, his son comes... Even we have seen it in childhood. "Sir, my father took from you the five thousand rupees. So now he is dead, so I have come to pay you." So he says, "I never seen my account that your father has taken five thousand rupees from me. I cannot take it." This is India. One man is offering him five thousand, that "We are debtor to you. Please take it." And he says, "No, I don't find in my account that your father took five thousand. I cannot take it." And now they are cheating. This is India's position. Even in our childhood I have see that Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent some lakhs of rupees. So when he became a big barrister he called every one of them that "My father died insolvent. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India. And now they have become cheaters. This is svarāj, independence. Even in British times there was C. R. Das who liquidated the debts of his insolvent father. "My father died insolvent. He could not pay, so he declared insolvency in the court. Now I have got money. You take it." This was India.
Prabhupāda: Without varṇāśrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. And after sannyāsa, then spiritual life, complete, śuddha-sattva. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So you have to establish varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāra. Ācāra. Ācāra. Varṇāśrama ācāra. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakṛti is there. Prakṛti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mūḍha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism.
Prabhupāda: The living entity is victimized, and in this life you can adventure to conquer over it. This is human life. The cats and dogs, they cannot fight with māyā, but a human being, he can fight. So if we don't fight, we don't take that adventure, then we remain cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they fight amongst themselves but not with the māyā. So aborigines, although they have got features of human being, they are no more than the cats and dogs. So they also fight amongst themselves. They do not know that the fighting spirit should be utilized to declare war against māyā. That is possible in human life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This fighting is philosophy. "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman? What I am?" Fighting against darkness, sleeping. Kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole. Everyone is sleeping on the lap of māyā. Now, this human form of life is not for sleeping but for awakening and fight with māyā. That is human life.
Prabhupāda: To save money. Machine means unemployment for many. Tractor, they're using, they're unemployment for bulls and plowmen and then they, bulls have to be killed. This is going on. Unemployment, then kill them. Vietnam, send all the men to fight and kill them. As soon as there is overpopulation, they declare war so that people may be killed.
Hṛdayānanda: Sometimes the soldiers became so disgusted that they would shoot their own officers.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is that, "positive"?
Acyutānanda: They don't know... Before they were sure. Now they're not sure why the sun shines. They had concocted an idea, and they declared it as a law, a scientific law. Now they have..., again doubting their own law.
Guru-kṛpā: Actually the flavor that's in the flower comes from the different secretion, and by different mixture, different flavors come out.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, what is that mixture?
Guru-kṛpā: By chance.
Prabhupāda: By chance. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Ādi-puruṣam. Govindam ādi-puruṣam, that puruṣa. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. We are worshiping that supreme and original person. And the women are declaring, "independent." They are begging door to door to a man, "Please give me shelter. Give me a child," and they're independent. One American woman, was.... She was speaking that "In India the woman are treated as slave. We don't want." So I told her that it is better to become slave of one person than to slave of become hundreds. (laughter) The woman must become a slave. So instead of becoming slaves of so many persons, it is better to remain satisfied, a slave of one person. So she was stopped. She was the secretary of that Dr. Miśra. You know that? And our Vedic civilization says, narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam: "The woman is beautiful when she remains as a slave to the husband." That is the beauty, not the personal beauty. How much she has learned to remain as a slave to the husband, that is Vedic civilization. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpam. The cuckoo, it is black bird, but why people love it? Because of the sweet voice. Kokilānāṁ svaro rūpaṁ vidyā-rūpaṁ kurūpaṇam. A man may be ugly, black, but if he's learned, everyone will respect him. And narī-rūpaṁ pati-vratam. And the beauty of woman is how much she is devoted and obedient to the husband. So it is very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Nature? That means you are rascal. Nature is above you. Then worship nature. Be submissive. You are submissive already. It doesn't matter whether you accept or not; nature is pulling you. Nature is stronger than you. There is no doubt about it. Then why you declare that you are independent? You are not independent. Foolishly declaring independence. As soon as you are dependent, you must have to accept God. You may not know who is God and what is God, but somebody who is controlling you, your activities, He is God.
Prabhupāda: Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific... He has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know."
Dr. Patel: Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say that there is life on other stars, in other planets.
Prabhupāda: Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative.
Dr. Patel: That communism is lost now.
Prabhupāda: No, communism is lost not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Kṛṣṇa or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, lakhs.
Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, reality. Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritaḥ (BG 7.15). But today the whole world is practically asura.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asura... And we are fighting with some tiny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. (break) ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively(?), "Everyone is God." Maybe.... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Now we must not.... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Nārāyaṇa everywhere.
Prabhupāda: He is protected. Others are not protected. So his term has not yet come. But what is the answer, that "Lord has become your obedient servant to protect. And when He does not?" Actually He does not. The.... In Europe they are very, very much afraid of war, next war. You know that? It becomes a terrible fright for them. Therefore war was not declared. They are very much frightened. They have suffered two big world wars. So why the God did not protect them? (break) ...cow dung philosophy. Cow dung philosophy you know? That one cow dung is just passed through, and the other cow dung is being burned. So this cow dung is laughing, "Oh, you are burned." (laughter) He does not know that when the.... She will be burned. She will be dried up; she will be burned. So your father's logic is like that, "I am protected," laughing at the death of others. Cow dung philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyāsī or gṛhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tucchaṁ kaṇḍūyanena karayor iva duḥkha (SB 7.9.45). And the sannyāsīs like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These Brahma-kumārīs. Not brahmacārī but Brahma-kumārī. Kumārīs are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumārīs. They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumārī. They enjoy and they invite the karmīs to enjoy and get money. Kumārī is there; money is there, that's all. Everywhere this is going on.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. So because he accepted discipleship, so He immediately chastised him that "You rascal, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are on the platform of bodily conception of life, the platform of the animals." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Anyone who accepts this body as self, he's animal. He's not even a human being. So the whole world is on this bodily concept of life. That is going on. "American," "European," "Hindu," "Muslim," "black," "white," this, that. They do not know what is education. That is the first education, that "You rascal, you are not this body. You are within the body." So who understands this? And they're declaring that "We are student of Bhagavad-gītā. We have studied Bhagavad-gītā." Hmm? Even Gandhi, he takes photograph with Bhagavad-gītā, but his fighting is for nationalism. The others are doing that. So what is the use of taking Bhagavad-gītā? The Pakistanis are also doing that. But you have taken Bhagavad-gītā, you are doing the same work. So what is your credit? This is going on. So nobody is learning Bhagavad-gītā. It is first time that we are teaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Otherwise, everyone is misled. The subject matter is that the soul is different from this body.
Prabhupāda: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious—they are already—that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not.... That is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals. Which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they'll still die.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them.
Prabhupāda: Then you are.... As soon as you say "making research," then you are not perfect. Don't say that you are scientist. You are student. Don't say that you are scientist. And you are declaring, "There is no authority, nothing." Why do you speak all this nonsense? Because you are not scientist. You are making research. That's all right. When you complete your research—you come to the conclusion—then call yourself as scientist. Why, as a student, neophyte, you are claiming as "scientist"? Why misleading people? You do not know anything, how things are going on, and you are claiming you are scientist. Our point is, "Don't do this, misleading propaganda. You are not scientist. We protest against this false propaganda. Why you are making.... You do not know anything. You cannot solve any problem, major problem, so why you are claiming scientist? Stop this as a gentleman." (break) And there is the soul within the body, and when the soul is gone, transferred to another body, it is dead. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One who is actually scientist, he is not surprised. He knows the soul has transferred to another body. That's all. That is scientist. (break) ...real scientist, not a rascal like you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mother cannot see it. Impossible. Better close the eyes. That is artist's realized. How a man can paint the expression of the mother, his child being killed. It is not possible. (break) Lesson by natures' study. Generally.... Generally means that is natural if one is under the protection of father and mother he must be happy. So why shall I give up the protection of father and mother? When my father is quite able, quite rich, and everything complete. Not that the poor father. (break) ...plainly declare, yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham. Teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). Practically see. I came to your country without any of these things. You saw. When I came to your country first, I had no center, no.... But who has provided all these hundred temples, big, big palaces, temples? Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). To remain under the protection of Kṛṣṇa you get so much facility. Why not be grateful to Kṛṣṇa? (inaudible) ...and He has given me so many sons, so many houses, so many protection. Shall I not feel grateful? Is it not my duty? What is this nonsense? Kṛṣṇa gives everything, and "No, no, I don't believe in God. God is dead." All rascals. Who denies God, he is the lowest rascal, immediately. Mūḍha. (end)
Rādhāvallabha: In Russia now they have declared one..., that it is a big crisis. Because their grains did not grow properly, they are not able to produce as much meat, so now one day a week everyone is forced to eat fish. So they are lamenting. They were describing how..., about the good old days were when you could go and buy an entire carcass.
Candanācārya: (break) ...country, build cities and then spend billions of dollars to make the city look like the country.
Prabhupāda: Carvita-carvaṇānām. Chewing the chewed, again and again. This is their position. (japa) (break)
Rāmeśvara: On the calendar it says it is Bhīma-ekādaśī.
Prabhupāda: Bhīma-ekādaśī, yes.
Prabhupāda: Hmm? Discuss amongst yourselves. This is the point. We have got a short duration of life, and we declare independence of the laws of nature, laws of God, and do whatever we like, and as a result of our activities, we are obliged to accept a body which is not desirable. Then where is my independence? Why do they think they are independent and act independently? Is it not foolishness? Discuss amongst yourselves.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: That's described in the third chapter: ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā.
Prabhupāda: Ah, thank you. This is the disease. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). The rascal, he is bewildered, vimūḍhātmā, on account of false egotism. Just like we are inviting everyone: Please come and learn Bhagavad-gītā. "Huh! Bhagavad-gītā, let us go the sea and swim." Surfer, surfer? They are taking so much trouble. I have not see here; in Hawaii. For hours together, struggling with waves. I've seen it South Africa also. Very fond of this surf sporting. So they are wasting so much time and laboring so hard just to become fish. Yes, they are going to be fish. Because at the time of death they'll think of "How I am jumping in the water, surfing." That is natural.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Just like a child does not believe, a boy, he has not seen his father. He does not believe that there is father. But if the mother says, "Yes, my dear child, there is father," so then his knowledge is perfect. With his imperfect knowledge, he was disbelieving that there is father, but when the mother says, he has to accept it. Then his knowledge becomes perfect. He has not seen who is father. That's a fact, maybe. And, but the mother is authority. She says, "Here, my dear child. There is father." Then his knowledge perfect. So we may be imperfect, the child is imperfect, but when he gets the knowledge from the perfect source, mother, then it is perfect. Similarly, we, we never say that we are perfect. If you are perfect, then why you are learning? You are trying to become perfect. So our process is that we are receiving knowledge from the perfect. Therefore whatever we say, it is perfect. A child does not know, "What is this, father?" The father says "My dear child, it is called microphone." So after that, if he takes it and declares to anyone, "This is microphone," that is perfect, although he's a child. Because he's learned it from the perfect father. This is our process. We don't speculate. We don't speculate whether there is father or not. That is not our process. We ask from the mother, "Mother, they say I have got father. I have never seen." So mother says, "Yes, my dear child, you have got a father." Then finish. Knowledge is perfect. And the child cannot challenge, "I have never seen my father. How can I believe you?" This is nonsense. Your mother says, that is fact. That's all, finished. You cannot challenge mother: "Mother, I have never seen my father; how can I believe?" That is nonsense! This is going on. "I have never seen God. Can you show me God?" This rascaldom is going on. First of all you must know you are a rascal. How can you see God? You hear from the authority who knows God. That is the injunction.
Devotee: Sacrifice to Viṣṇu, to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means to please Kṛṣṇa. If Kṛṣṇa is pleased He can change destiny. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti bhājāṁ (Bs. 5.54). Sacrifice means to please Kṛṣṇa, yajña. Yajña means to please Kṛṣṇa. The whole, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to please Kṛṣṇa. That is the whole program. In all other business there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. When they declare war, one nation to another, there is no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa. They're pleasing their whims. The two, big, big wars began, it was not for pleasing Kṛṣṇa. The Germans wanted that their sense gratification is being hampered by the Britishers, "Declare war." That means it was a war of sense gratification. "The Britishers are satisfying their sense gratification; we cannot do. All right, fight." So, there was no question of pleasing Kṛṣṇa.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher clases of people. In the material conception of life there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called caṇḍālas, dog-eaters, can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there's no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men. Anyone can take to it. The most simple man, taking center of the pure devotee, can be purified by proper guidance."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The guidance means how to take him to Kṛṣṇa's shelter. Then he will be all right. The guidance is wrong, no question of Kṛṣṇa, and he, simply by rubberstamping, "Here is a harijana," how it will be effective? Therefore it is failure. He remains the same drunkard, same meat-eater, and he becomes harijana. How it is possible? The guidance required. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). He must be guided.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa, proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: Arjuna is rectifying this because people may say, "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, he is accepting Him as guru." No, Arjuna says, "Not only I, but other authorities, they also accept." So it is..., everything is clear, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He should be accepted as guru or His representative should be accepted guru. Then it will be... So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. You take instruction from Him and be benefited. But one who is carrying this message, he is also authorized. Just like one money order, it is coming through the post office, but an ordinary peon is handing over the money. But he is representative of post office. Actually, the money order is being delivered by the post office, general post office.
Prabhupāda: That is complacence. What is called? "Yes, in future we shall do." That's all. Then at present you cannot do. Then you are imperfect. Why you are declaring yourself as scientist? Scientist means who is in full knowledge. That is scientist. And if you are not in full knowledge, how you are scientist? "Big, big scientist, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." Rascals say that chemical, combination of chemical, makes life. So we challenge that you begin from an egg. Everyone sees the egg—some white substance, some yellow substance, covered with some shells. So just manufacture it and give it to the incubator, and let the chicken come. Why you take the egg from another living chicken? What is the answer? You rascal, you make one small egg. We can see there are some white substance, yellow substance, so you combine some chemicals, white and yellow, and cover it with celluloid shell and put it under the incubator. You get. Why the rascals cannot do it? And still, the rascals will say that life can be..., is combination of chemicals. Give this challenge to these rascals, that "Life is... If it is combination of chemicals, why don't you do it, the simple thing?" Yes?
Janāhlāda: I was reading the other day where they have certain kinds of scientists who do nothing but make tastes out of chemicals. They say they can duplicate any taste, and they are very highly paid now for making synthetic foods taste like all other kinds of real foods.
Prabhupāda: And they'll not produce food.
Prabhupāda: He is very strict. He is a stubborn enemy of Śaṅkarācārya. All the Vaiṣṇava ācāryas. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, declare it: māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa (CC Madhya 6.169). If you hear the interpretation of Māyāvādīs, then you are doomed. You have no hope for spiritual advancement. This is the statement. Māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa. Finished, your spiritual life is finished. You can write this also, that Caitanya Mahāprabhu's instruction is strictly to avoid the so-called Vedantists.
Prabhupāda: Simply dog dancing is independence?
Vṛṣākapi: Ultimately, they are declaring their independence of God, Kṛṣṇa. They can do as they like.
Prabhupāda: Then where is that independence? You can declare anything. A crazy man can say anything, but where is your independence?
Rūpānuga: In fact, they are bound up.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is the question of independence? Whatever you do not want, it is being forced upon you. So where is your independence? Nobody wants any miseries. So everyone is miserable condition. Struggle for existence means to get out of miserable condition. So where is the independence? Now there is mist. How you can say you are independent? You cannot drive this mist, this fog. Unless sun rises, it cannot be cleared. So where is your independence? There may be so many accidents. Actually, it so happens. But you do not want. But here is an unfortunate. So where is your independence? It is not under your control. If the sun rises, then it can be dissipated. Otherwise, there is no question. Poor thoughts. What is here, this park?
Vṛṣākapi: That's a private community.
Prabhupāda: Misusing the energy. Yesterday, some two and half million the government has spent, and we also, combined together, we have spent ten million by power, gas, going there and coming. So many cars. Another ten million. So all these twelve million, three, thirteen million dollars spent for nothing. Dancing like dogs, independence, māyā. (break) (out of car) Ask him this question.
Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda was saying in the car that yesterday the American people were declaring their independence. So he's asking what is the value to it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: What is the value of it? They are enjoying their senses.
Prabhupāda: Now dog dancing. What is that song? Dog dancing? I sang that song?
Hari-śauri: (sings) "We are independent, we are independent."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (laughs) That is the spirit of patriotism.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you can say any name, any style or any trademark. Where is the independence? That is the question.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pradyumna: Seventh Chapter.
Rūpānuga: That is good, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is a very nice title.
Pradyumna: "I shall now declare unto you in full this knowledge, both phenomenal and noumenal, by knowing which there shall remain nothing further to be known."
Prabhupāda: Yes, nothing further to be known.
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, they are not brāhmaṇas. So when there is disagreement, there is fight. The battle will decide. That is always, at the present moment also. When there is disagreement between nation and nation, there is war declaration. That is natural.
Vipina: This is Mr. Furman and his wife, Prabhupāda. Mr. Furman was the man who sold us this property.
Mr. Furman: Glad to meet you, Your Divine Grace. My wife, Lynn.
Prabhupāda: I'm very glad to see you.
Mrs. Furman: We saw you on television today. Did you see? Was it Channel Four? The news has been on, it's on again at eleven. Very nice.
Mr. Furman: It was a very good representation.
Prabhupāda: So it is not a sectarian religious sentimental movement. It is a movement for giving real education, knowledge, to the people all over the world without any discrimination. So at least those who are intelligent class of men, they should join and study this movement and try to broadcast for the good of the human society. The basic principles I have already explained.
Prabhupāda: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.
Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyāsa-yoga-yuktena cetasā nānya-gāminā (BG 8.8).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: This is Lord Caitanya. He wrote only eight verses about all this literature. Then there is files and volumes and volumes about love of God. So in this Śikṣāṣṭakam, eight verses, the last verse is translated as, He prays: "I do not know anyone but Kṛṣṇa as my Lord, and He will always remain as such, even if He handles me roughly in His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, and He will remain my worshipable Lord unconditionally." So this is just the opposite, this is pure love, just the opposite of the, what Śrīla Prabhupāda is explaining that in this material world love is based on some desire that actually becomes a kind of business that "I love you if you will respond in this way." What to speak of someone saying that "I love you, even if you act as a debauch. You don't have to be faithful, that's... You can do as you like in your own way, but my declaration is that I simply want to serve You and You'll always be my worshipable object." So love should be like that, otherwise it is simply business that I will give you the product if you give me the money. But the lover is the living being...
Prabhupāda: You shall not expect anything in return. That is real love. Just like this mother is loving child, expecting anything—no, not expecting any return. But she still she gives service. So that is as a little sample of pure love. But here also some... When the child is grown up, if the child is not obedient, the mother practically withdraws love. But in the spiritual world, unconditionally love is there. As it is explained, āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām. Marma-hatām: (CC Antya 20.47) whatever you do, I don't mind that but still I love you. That is pure love.
Interviewer: So what is generally taken here... I mean, this is the American bicentennial year, and the Declaration of Independence talks about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you suggesting then that what is taken to be life is actually the antithesis of life? What is taken to be liberty is actually enslavement? And what is assumed to be the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a rat race in which you try to make the best of what you can?
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Misunderstanding. The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is going on misunderstanding. Dehātma-buddhiḥ —just like cats and dogs. Suppose if you become very proud, "I am Englishman. Why you have come here?" As the dogs bark, "Row! Row! Why you have come?" So where is the difference? What is the difference? He's thinking "I am dog," you are thinking "Englishman," I am thinking "Indian." There is no difference. So if we keep people in darkness of dog's mentality, and declare we are advanced in civilization, most misguiding.
Mike Robinson: I see. And so when people are taught, they will then understand. But what I'd also like to know, how would it affect the way they live? In sort of purely..., the way they go about their life.
Prabhupāda: You see they are living, these boys are living. It is not very difficult. They are not dying, they are living.
Atreya Ṛṣi: It is in the process.
Prabhupāda: Yes. By shaving, there are so many shaven headed. Does it means that he's in the process? Just like a doctor carries one stethoscope. But if somebody thinks "Let me carry a stethoscope, I'll become a doctor." But for a doctor the stethoscope is required. But a false man takes a stethoscope and declares himself a doctor, medical man, that is cheating. (pause) You get your puffed rice? No. Get?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Let me ask. We may have little bit.
Prabhupāda: No, here they prepare puffed rice?
Atreya Ṛṣi: No, from India or from America. We don't...
Prabhupāda: You get imported.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. Would you like me to ask?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You bring.
Nava-yauvana: So when we preach to people we should first convince them that God is the supreme controller, the supreme proprietor. Then further understanding can come.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a supreme controller. That you have to admit. You are not independent. Why they foolishly think independent? What is the reason they're foolishly thinking independent? What is their independence? Nobody is independent. So why they are foolishly thinking independent? You first challenge them. They are not independent. Are you independent? So why they foolishly declare independent?
Jñānagamya: They are ignorant.
Prabhupāda: So what is the position then? They are in ignorance, and they are leading the society as scientist, philosopher, politician. That is misleading. They cannot go even freely in the so-called moon planet excursion or Mars. Still, they are declaring independence.
Prabhupāda: What is sectarian? Every sect the child is dependent of the parents. What do you mean by sectarian? Does it mean the Hindu child does not depend on the parents? The Muslim child depends on the parents? Everyone depends on the parents. Either he may be Hindu child or Muslim child or Christian child, that is the nature of the child. Similarly, you may be Hindu, you may be Muslim, you are dependent on God. This is a fact. What is sectarian? Can the Muslims say that "No, no, we are not dependent on God"? Can the Christians say like that? We have to take the general condition: everyone is dependent on God. Where is the question of sectarian? Now this cloud, it is clouded, everyone is expecting some rain. Does it mean the rain is Hindu rain or Muslim rain or Christian rain? Dependent on cloud. Everyone is expecting rain. It doesn't matter whether he's Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Why they declare independence?
Jñānagamya: They say independence means you don't need anything.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Nava-yauvana: He's trying to define independence, and he said independence means you don't need anything.
Atreya Ṛṣi: If you have no needs. Independence means that you have no need for anything else.
Prabhupāda: No, even if you have needs, if you can supply need, your needs you can supply yourself, then you can call independent. But that is not the position. You cannot get the supplies independently. Why you are expecting cloud? Because if there is rainfall, there will be vegetation. Then you will be able to grow food. So you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Why do you declare independence?
Prabhupāda: That also I have already explained, you depend on another chicken's egg. You cannot manufacture the egg. That is my challenge, that you manufacture the egg by chemical combination and put into the machine. That you cannot do. Another living chicken must lay down the egg, then you can reclaim. You're dependent. Where is your independence? Everywhere you are dependent. How you declare independence? Where is your independence?
Dayānanda: They think that the countries that have the materialistic advancement or scientific advancements, that they are very well situated.
Prabhupāda: Well, scientific advancement, all this nonsense you can say. Just like Iran. God has given the oil underneath the ground, you are so proud. But if God would not give you the oil, then you starve in the desert. Then talk of improvement, nonsense. You're dependent on the oil. That is given by God. By God's grace, you have got some stock of oil, and there is good demand of oil. Then you are proud of making advancement. You are depending on the oil. The oil is supplied by God. You're dependent. Where is your independence? When the oil is finished, then your all pride is finished.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot say that you are independent. That is the point that we are discussing. You call nature, I call God, it doesn't make any difference. But you are dependent on something else. You can call it nature, but nature is also God's nature. Anyway, accept nature. So,
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
So take it, nature, nature is acting in her own way. So nature is not your father's servant. So how do you declare independent, that I am everything? Even if you accept nature, you are not independent. That's a fact.
Atreya Ṛṣi: One of the questions Iranians ask a lot is that if He is giving us intelligence, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence so that we could be God conscious?
Prabhupāda: Yes, He's giving. Read the Bhagavad-gītā. But you rascals don't accept, what can be done? God is personally coming to give you intelligence, take this intelligence. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). "I come when there is no intelligence, when you are all rascals, I come to give you intelligence, but you don't take, what can I do?" That is God's mission, that "These rascals, without properly being guided they'll go to hell. Let Me give them some intelligence." That is Bhagavad-gītā, that is Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna is kārpaṇya doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ: "I have become confused, so give me intelligence." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). He's taking intelligence, how to tackle the situation. He was confused. He was to fight as a kṣatriya, but he saw that the persons with whom he has to fight, they are all family members. So what kind of fight is that? Who is fighting with family members? That was his confusion. Suppose we are Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Then if we declare fight amongst ourselves, is that very intelligent? So actually the Kurukṣetra battle was like that. Some intrigue of Dhṛtarāṣṭra that his son will occupy the throne, that was the cause of the fight.
Prabhupāda: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence. You can misuse it. So that misuse is wrong. Then you'll become unhappy. Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Says. He doesn't force you—you must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department? Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. We have got little independence. But if we misuse it, then we shall be punished. So there is no question of independence. Independence, little. That is interdependence, not independence. Why they declare independence? That is their foolishness.
Prabhupāda: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sadā samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahāt. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature. And if we act in this life to create another material body, then our all activities are spoiled. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. He did not ask about the constitutional position of himself, he simply engaged himself in dog's place(?). Then whatever activities he has done, it is simply defeat. Next body what he's going to get he does not know. If you become a minister in this life and next life you become a dog, then what is the benefit? Can anyone challenge this? "No, no, I'm not going to become a dog." Nobody can say. You are going to change the body—tatha dehāntara prāptir—now what kind of body you'll get, that will depend on nature, not on yourself. If you go to a tailor's shop, so you have to pay for if you want a better garment. Similarly, what kind of body you will get, that will depend on your work. So in this life you may be a prime minister, but if you have worked like menial dogs and hogs, then you are going to get body of a dog and hog. That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence.
Indian man (3): No, but here even it would declare it. Minister of State. Only Communist have put those questions.
Prabhupāda: Communists are seeing this movement as a great danger.
Indian man (3): Yes, great danger for their...
Prabhupāda: And we are spreading God consciousness. (break) By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, we have no debts. We are (indistinct) simply find out... (?) Now in Bombay I am getting from my Book Fund seven lakhs of rupees per month regularly.
Indian man (3): Yes, ten lakhs per month is coming. Otherwise that work will not progress.
Prabhupāda: We have given them three lakhs of rupees.
Prabhupāda: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He is God—guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan (CC Adi 7.71). "My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Guru more mūrkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is mūrkha? Why He's posing Himself that mūrkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahāprabhu says guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsan? This is sahajiyā-vāda. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gauḍīya Maṭha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next ācārya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be ācārya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Mahārāja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be ācārya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody ācārya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Mahārāja wanted to appoint somebody as ācārya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become ācārya. Then another man came, then another, ācārya, another ācārya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Mahārāja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Mahārāja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru." Then he's finished.
Jayapatākā: After her death.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Kurgeon's plan... Lord Kurgeon wanted that let there be asking of India from the family of Victoria. He gave this plan. But this Parliament did not want that Englishman shall make India home. Then his interest will be in India. Just like America. Englishmen, as they made America their home, they declared independence. Australia. As soon as you make a home, then the more interest will be in India. Washington was Englishman. Was he not? Washington.
Jayapatākā: Yes. Well, everyone came from England.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not from England. But ordinary... So Englishman, why he declared war against the English?
Jayapatākā: Their interest was in America more than England.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Naturally. So as soon as you make home, your interest will be at home. So that was their policy. In those days no Englishman was allowed to purchase property in India. All his income, money, should go to England. So the Mohammedan Moguls, they made their home in India. Therefore they stayed for eight hundred years. They would not have gone. Indians did not like to finish the Mohammedan kingdom. No, never. It is the Englishmen. They penetrated and finished them, not the Indians. Indians were not against the Mohammedans. They are going on.
Prabhupāda: We have to take... You cannot manufacture where God goes. You should have to take lesson from God. That is one thing. If we manufacture ideas, that will never be successful. That will never be successful. Don't manufacture ideas. If you want to be servant of God, you must take instruction from God. That is wanted. You cannot manufacture idea that "God wants this." So first of all try to understand what is God's mission. God's mission is, it is clearly said, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). So, more or less, everyone is entangled with this glānir dharma. They have manufactured. Just like the demigod worship. This is a glānir dharma. Kṛṣṇa says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). And Kṛṣṇa clearly says kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ yajante anya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). So if you want to utilize, people are giving in good faith, Bālajī, Kṛṣṇa. Their hard-earned money, whatever we are giving something. Yajña, that is wanted. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). That money should not be utilized for any other purpose except yajña. First of all, you have to decide like that. Then we can give you direction. First of all, you have to decide that this money, not a single farthing should be spent for any other purpose than performing yajña. Then we can give you right direction. And if you have plan to utilize this money for any other purpose, that is not Kṛṣṇa's mission. That is your mission. So first of all you have to decide whether you are going to execute Kṛṣṇa's mission or your mission. Kṛṣṇa's mission is very clearly defined. It is there, everything is declared there in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Interaction. That does not mean bhakta and Bhagavān become equal.
Indian man (2): Bhakta and Bhagavān may not be equal, but even the bhakti-mārga and we say the Bhagavān Himself declares that "My bhakta is more superior to Me."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You say whatever you say, they remain two-different.
Indian man (2): They may remain two...
Prabhupāda: Then that is not advaita-vāda. That is dvaita-vāda. Two, two, not one. That is dvaita-vāda. That is the point.
Indian man: You mean to say eternally there is a soul and... This ātmā and Paramātmā will remain separate?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore the... Therefore it is said: nitya-yuktā upāsate. Therefore the word is there, nitya-yuktā. Nitya means everlasting.
Prabhupāda: They can. They'll not accept the process. They can. Everyone. Otherwise why these brahmacārīs? Just to be trained. That's all. By training we can find so many brahmacārīs. Just like by training you have given up so many things. You were accustomed to this illicit sex and meat-eating and... But you have given up. But why? By training. So if we request the government, "Let us open this brahmacārī..." They'll not help. But they'll make the other propaganda. They'll make contraceptive method, and naturally one Hindu widow is trained up not to marry again. Once she got a husband, that's all right. Now you convert your, you divert your attention to Kṛṣṇa. They'll make propaganda. "Why stop her sense gratification? Let her marry again, widow marriage." Why widow marriage? If there is voluntarily giving up begetting any more child, to avoid husband, why the widow marriage bill is introduced? Everything was natural, brahmacārī. The sterilization is already there. That will not be accepted. Widow, she's remaining refrained from. Just like we have now asked our girls not to dress attractively, widow. They should dress not attractively. Because after all, what is this sex enjoyment? It is not very good thing. By outward attraction they attract. Nice sari, nice,—one becomes attracted. Therefore this is psychology, that if the woman does not dress very nicely, she will not be attractive. Unnecessarily attraction she will avoid. But a woman is naturally, her psychology is dress very nicely so that man may be attracted. Because they want shelter. This is the whole psychology. They, although they declare independence, they cannot live independently. That is not possible.
Indian man: No avatāra has declared so far that "I'm avatāra."
Prabhupāda: He is... What is called avatāra? He has no, nothing on the śāstra basically. And anyone who has no śāstra basics, he's useless. Yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23). He can cheat so many fools and rascals, it has no meaning. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about this kind of guru. They have been condemned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. I think you'll find out at the end of the Twenty-fourth Chapter, Eighth Canto. They have been condemned. (break) Now what is the benefit? From rational point of view, suppose he can manufacture gold. That is his jugglery. Eh? He can manufacture some gold? So far I have heard. I've not seen.
Prabhupāda: We should not be afraid. Yuddhyasva mām anusmara (BG 8.7). Kṛṣṇa advised Arjuna that you fight, not that you shall not fight. We shall fight to the best of our... And this is good, they are feeling the pressure of this movement. Otherwise why they are going to take step?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But they, these parents what they want to do, they want this to be declared illegal. Now they...
Prabhupāda: They can, the children can also, those who are our children they can form an association.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But they cannot control us, our independence.
Prabhupāda: "They make the man foolish, God consciousness," and so on, so on. These scientists, they declare, "What is God? This is all superstition."
Dr. Kneupper: But in the world there seem to be many different religions, many different faiths.
Prabhupāda: Religion you may have. Religion means to try to understand God. Any religion—you take Christian religion or Hindu religion or Mohammedan religion—there is little attempt to understand God. So any religion which gives you knowledge of God and you understand what is relation with God, that is perfect religion. We have no quarrel.
Dr. Kneupper: Do you think if all men, let's say, all the religions could try to come together...
Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen.
Prabhupāda: And now in India another danger is that so many rascals, they are declaring, "I am God." And this India, people have become so fallen down, they accept all these rascals as God.
Dr. Kneupper: Do you think the same problem is here in India as in other countries?
Prabhupāda: No, in your country there is no God. That is another problem. There is no God. And here rascals are God. The problem remains the same. You say frankly, "There is no God," but these rascals say, "There is God, but here is my God." And he says, "No, here is my God." No one knows the real God.
Dr. Kneupper: How does one distinguish between what is a false God...
Prabhupāda: This is the formula. Just like aiśvaryasya. Now, you have got some money, but you cannot say that "I have got all the money of the world." That you cannot say. You may possess some states, but you cannot say that "I am the owner of all the states." So God is the proprietor. You have got your country.
Prabhupāda: That is your... I say, "Don't declare it a temple." It is our community, living quarters, residence, that's all. We live like this, our style of living is this. How you can...?
Guest: Just like the usual was doing something at home.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't say it is temple. That's all. (chuckles) Kill law by law. (indistinct) ...and safest position is that you don't say it is a temple.
Mr. Malhotra: Aṅguli. (Laughs) It is one part, to say many.
Prabhupāda: No. You should be, should be senses. Just like this aṅguli, I am asking, "Do like this." It is my servant. After all, it is part of the body, it is my servant. If it cannot serve my body then it is diseased. Similarly we are part and parcel of God. If we cannot serve God, that is our diseased condition. The same example. This finger is part and parcel of my body. But I ask finger, "Please come here, to my nostrils." If it cannot do, then it is diseased. It is not in normal condition. So anyone who does not serve the whole, part and whole, he is diseased. He is not in normal condition. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya kṛṣṇera dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Therefore because we have forgotten this relationship with God, declared ourself as God, that is diseased condition. Therefore God comes and He orders, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Surrender unto Me. Don't talk nonsense." That is God. So when we agree, that is our perfection. Not to artificially become God, but to agree to serve God. That is liberation.
Prabhupāda: Wardha. And I saw his cottage and everything. So I said this is the... After all he wanted to live very simple life in a cottage, why he declared war against the Britishers? What was the necessity? (Hindi) Britishers would never tackled you or objected. The villagers were using. Why so much energy was engaged, to drive away the Britishers?
Mr. Malhotra: No, he wanted the country to be free from the foreign rule.
Prabhupāda: No, now what freedom we have got? (laughter)
Mr. Malhotra: That is a different thing.
Prabhupāda: But that means we do not get such information from Bhagavad-gītā, that "Make your country free." Why he took Bhagavad-gītā and did this business, miscreant (?) business. He took Bhagavad-gītā and he was busy declaring war. Because politically, sometimes required. But the thing is that if your ideal is to live very simple life... His, I mean to say, followers, Jawaharlal Nehru, he did not take up this.
Prabhupāda: When you eat, you haven't got to ask somebody else, "Do you think I am happy?" You'll feel yourself. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra syāt (SB 11.2.42). If you are actually devotee, then you will be detestful to all material things. (break) ...mouse of the mountain. (laughter)
Mr. Malhotra: Yes, he was declared mouse of the mountain. (break)
Prabhupāda: Yes, if you want material power, you must be worshiper of Durgā.
Mr. Malhotra: And if you want spiritual...?
Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: Language does not make united. This Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. They write Bengali. But why they are separate? America and England, they speak the same language. Why Washington declared independence? Australia, they have also declared independence from England just a piece of land. So there cannot be unity on any platform unless there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is impossible.
Hari-śauri: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only thing that encompasses everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is false idea that by language, linguistic unity there will be... There are so many different examples. Pakistan, they speak Hindi also. Yes, they speak Hindi. And why there is separation? Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. Why they are separated from West Bengal? The linguistic unity is not... Any material platform, there cannot be unity.
Prabhupāda: Gandhi became mahātmā, but his mission was, "Get out, Englishmen, get out." Where is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu? He declared himself mahātmā, but his business was how to drive away the Englishmen.
Dr. Patel: Sir, he, I mean, I'm sorry to interrupt you. He never hated Englishmen. It's their method he wanted to drive out.
Prabhupāda: I do not hate you, but I beat you with shoes. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Preach as much as possible. By saṅkīrtana, big saṅkīrtana. Big saṅkīrtana is book distribution and small saṅkīrtana is with mṛdaṅga. Big saṅkīrtana is going on all over the world. Small saṅkīrtana locally. Overflood the demons' Godless civilization. Our declaration of war against this Godless civilization.
Girirāja: I met a very, very nice boy yesterday. His father is a life member, but he's studying in Boston at MIT.
Prabhupāda: Oh, technology.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: The whole world is full of demons. And they are demons. Who declare himself, "I am God," he's a demon.
Dr. Patel: Only one who has actually realized Para-brahman and the, become the real (indistinct) of Brahman, he has got a right to say Brahma... Unless he becomes brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20).
- brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
- na śocati na kāṅkṣati
- samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
- mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
- (BG 18.54)
Then he becomes brahma-bhūta. Otherwise he cannot become. Brahma-bhūta is the first stage. This they consider the final. I mean, that is my understanding. I don't know, I may be right or wrong. But I want to be corrected by you.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhūta... Jīva-bhūta, everyone is thinking, "I am this body." That is jīva-bhūta. And when understands that "I'm not body, I'm within the body," that is brahma-bhūta.
Dr. Patel: They believe in God.
Prabhupāda: No, believe in God, that is everyone doing. So what is their special credit? Why do they touch Bhagavad-gītā and say, "My imagination of God is different"? How cheating it is. If your imagination of God is different, why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā and declare yourself that "I am a student of Bhagavad-gītā. My life is also for Gītā?"
Dr. Patel: Even when Tilak... Tilak says he follows Bhagavad-gītā always.
Prabhupāda: Everyone says that.
Prabhupāda: That is also Kṛṣṇa conscious. You see how many demons are killed by Kṛṣṇa.
Setterji: "Come on." You challenge. You see? I've declared. If they challenge us I am ready, "Come on." At the temple I challenged, "Come on! And you are 150. We don't be afraid."
Prabhupāda: So... (Hindi) You have lost your kṣatriya spirit.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Having Setterji with us... When he has (?) relax for few days, rest for few days.
Prabhupāda: Huh? If you have lost your kṣatriya spirit, then take him.
Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice... (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)... Mantrer(?) was so against, that "We must stop this." Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, "Either Seti should go..." Like that, he has repeated me. He gave me hint that Seti... (Hindi) And you know that. The doctor, what is that doctor? He suggested.
Prabhupāda: So you expand it. A dog is thinking, "I am this body. I am bulldog," "I am greyhound." And man is also thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." But they do not know their real identity, and they are fighting like dogs. And this is going on in the name of civilization. And when we put forward Bhagavad-gītā, the first lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: (BG 2.11) "Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you are lamenting about the body. But actually..." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ: "So far the body is con..., this is lump of matter. So whether it is dead or alive, nobody seriously think of it, no learned, paṇḍita." Of course, those who are fools, rascal, they can take it. But those who are actually learned, they do not talk about this body. So upon this statement just see the world situation. Everyone is busy on the concept of body. So what is the position of the world? Apaṇḍita, ignorance. And such people are going on as learned scholars, as politicians and leaders and so on. So how there can be peace? If you bring different types of dogs, greyhound and bulldog and Indian dog and bring them—the "United Dog Association" (laughter)—so will there be peace? That is the position. I declared in Melbourne in a public meeting that this United Nation is the unity of barking dog. I told. It was published in the paper. They also criticized me, "The Swami has come to hound." (laughter) But that is actually the fact. If you become impartial judge, not on behalf of CID or anyone, then you see the actual.
Prabhupāda: No, we are speaking about Kṛṣṇa. So if I say that Kṛṣṇa says like this and it is a fact, then what is our fault? But they are taking very serious, just like especially nowadays in Western country they are opposing that "This philosophy is a brainwash." So this is our position. Satyaṁ brūyāt priyaṁ brūyāt mā brūyāt satyam apriyam.(?) The world situation is that you can speak truth if it is palatable. And if it is unpalatable, don't speak. But this thing cannot be maintained when you are preaching spiritual life. There we cannot cheat. Spiritual life must be declared very frankly. Not that we have to declare; it is already declared. Kṛṣṇa says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanam, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). The spirit soul is within this body. The body is different from the spirit soul, and as it is changing—the body is changing—similarly, after death, so-called death... Because spirit has no death, no birth. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. So this knowledge is the beginning of spiritual life. And if you are preaching, they are opposing us. India also opposing. This is our position. They take Bhagavad-gītā and they mislead them. And we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is our fault.
Prabhupāda: He said, Girirāja, that there is some declaration by Vinoda Bhave that "I'm now going to retire."
Dr. Patel: Who? Vinobari.(?) (Vinoda Bhave?)
Prabhupāda: "Completely. And now I shall endeavor for mokṣa." So that means till now he was not on the liberation platform.
Indian: He is... Vinoda Bhave is real brāhmaṇa. He is truly a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes I know that. That may be. Brāhmaṇa is sattva-guṇa. That may be, but that does not mean liberation. There is knowledge. At least he understands what is liberation and what is not.
Prabhupāda: Whatever... The rascal says. A rascal says. It is not private. No private-public. It is laws of nature. You have to abide by that. The nature's law is "Now winter. You have to cover your body." There is no second law. So that is wanting, that we are... The present defect is that every one of us under the laws of God or nature, whatever you say. And still, we are declaring independence. This is the defect. Prakrti-stho 'pi.
- puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho 'hi
- bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
- kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
- sad-asad janma-yoniṣu
- (BG 13.22)
Sad-asad-janma. Why? Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. He's associating with the different modes of material of nature, infecting, and that is the cause one is born as demigod, one is born as dog, one is born as tree, one is born as human being. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. Therefore we should associate with sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa, te karaṇe lāgi more, karma bandha phāṇsa. Because we have given up sat-saṅga-oṁ tat sat-Kṛṣṇa's saṅga, we are entangled in this asat-saṅga. And that is the cause of my karma-bandha phāṇsa. Sat-saṅga chāḍi kāinu, asate vilāsa: "I wanted to enjoy with asat." Asato mā sad gamaya. Therefore I'm entangled.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means "God is my servant order-supplier." Actually... This is European mentality. One, my Godbrother, German Godbrother, that Sadananda, he told me, in the last war, when the war was going on, generally women were left. All men were in the battlefield, somebody's husband, somebody's father, somebody's son. So they went to the church. They were going church. Even Churchill also recommended "Go to the church. Pray." Duḥkha se saba hari bhaje sukha se bhaje kaya. So, but nobody returned. So all of them became atheist: "Oh, it is useless to go to church. I prayed so much for my husband coming back, but he did not come. Useless." So this is the position. "I ordered God that 'My husband has gone to the war. Let him come back unharmed.' And God did not bring him back. He did not carry my order. I don't want this God." This is going on. When the war was declared, there was no consultation with God. (laughter) Rascal. That time there was no consultation. And when the husband is going to die, he goes to God. This is our position.
Guest (2): When war was to be declared...
Prabhupāda: Ha. There was no consul...
Guest (2): They had found a final solution to the Jewish problem.
Prabhupāda: These politicians, they're everything. And when the war is very acute and the husband is going to die, then God is required. When he does sinful activities, God is never consulted, but when he suffers, then God's consulted. "And if You don't supply my order, then I don't want You." Means he remains: "Don't want You." That's all.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving protection. Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarvapāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. But still we are not agreeable. Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection from all reaction of sinful life." But we are not taking that protection. You simply surrender. It is only process.
Guest (1): I am taking your shelter, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, I am not talking of me. I mean to say generally everything is declared. We have to take advantage of this. Then it is everything.
Guest (1): I mean to say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, Lord Kṛṣṇa also has said that "My pure devotees are more powerful than Me."
Prabhupāda: You have all my blessings. You have done so much for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: It is... You... You have been taught that Kṛṣṇa is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like that. Kūpa-maṇḍuka-nyāya. Kūpa-maṇḍa, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh, I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking "Atlantic Ocean may be.... This well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on, ten." These rascals are thinking like that—avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā (BG 9.11)—that "Kṛṣṇa may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise-ten feet." This is going on. And Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "I am the Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on. Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). They won't believe that. And still, they'll declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." They won't believe a word of Kṛṣṇa, and they'll say, "I am student of Bhagavad-gītā." This is going on. This is our position. In India everyone says, "I have read Bhagavad-gītā three hundred times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gītā and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life—you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Up to this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process, but if you understand Kṛṣṇa, then, after leaving this body, no more material body.
Prabhupāda: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Kṛṣṇa is master; I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that "Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. So now I have surrendered. I have no more fear. Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." To believe firmly... "Kṛṣṇa is all powerful. Kṛṣṇa is my master. He is not a fakir, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Kṛṣṇa is another fakir like me. He's talking nonsense," then that is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, that śraddhā śabde viśvāsa niścaya. This is śraddhā. Sraddha is the beginning. That śraddhā means when you firmly believe in Kṛṣṇa: "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Kṛṣṇa, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you remain where you are. This is firm belief: "Kṛṣṇa says that He will give me protection. So let me surrender. I have surrendered to māyā. I have not become happy. So why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. Resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Kṛṣṇa will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakāra—we don't want to exploit anyone—Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of māyā and they are kept in darkness. What is this? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14), and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economics and making them, training them as demons and rākṣasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakāra.
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
And this is India's mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. So... And Kṛṣṇa also confirms, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati, na ca tasmād... (Bg 18.68). You'll be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Simply go on sincerely working for this movement. Nobody can defeat you. Take all strategic point, fighting with māyā, and become victorious. From any point of view, come on. We shall fight with māyā. It is a great declaration of fight with māyā. Not with māyā. Our fight is with the demons. Māyā is servant, maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. She can withdraw by the order. But she cannot withdraw because people are demons. So this European opposition, American opposition is that the demons are now feeling the pressure. That is recognition that "Now it is a fight. We have to defend."
Prabhupāda: How can I give them? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Kṛṣṇa says, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ: (BG 7.15) "Anyone who has not fully surrendered to..., he is this, duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ." That's a fact. Just see. This man has got some intelligence. He's simply cheating. This is duṣkṛtina. He should have preached Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He has got intelligence. He has created a position, means this is intelligent. But that intelligence he's applying for declaring himself as God. Therefore duṣkṛtina. Intelligence being used for some bad purpose. He's not God. Cheating purpose. He knows it. Everyone knows that he does not know. But he is using his intelligence for some bad purpose for making some temporary position. How rascal he is. He's not God. Suppose he is accepted as God. But he is imitation or cheating God. How long it will go on? But he's such a rascal he does not know that. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). Therefore mūḍha. For few years, suppose he remains so-called God. What is the benefit? Next life he may become a dog. What is the benefit? Therefore mūḍha. Māyā-sukhāya, indriyārtham. Indriyārtha-māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Hm? For sense gratification for a few years and make such gorgeous cheating process. Therefore he's rascal. He does not know the value of his eternal life, how he is going to become a dog next life. He knows, but he doesn't care. He's such a rascal. For temporary happiness, men and woman, er, woman and money.
Prabhupāda: Where is another fish? There was no fish when you dug this well. These rascals are great rascals, and they are going on in the name of scientists. Another, another, where is that another? Another means that is God. These rascals, they do not know that. They simply "another." Who is that another? That is God. Simple logic. The child is there, the mother is there, there must be father. This is logic. Otherwise how the living entity came into existence? Talk on this point. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. Śāstra says in the beginning, jalajā, living entities born in the water. And they are not one kind. Not that one kind of fish is coming. Nava-lakṣāṇi. Nine hundred thousand different types of life, varieties, varieties of life. So how these rascals say that all of a sudden came another? What is that another? Answer it. What is that another? "Big, big monkey, big, big belly, Ceylon jumping, melancholy." (laughter) What is that another? That "another" is God. It is simple for us. We understand. Why? Because you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). "I am, here I am. I am the seed-giving father." Finished. We take it. So we are in full knowledge. What is the difficulty for us? There is father. You can say another or this or that, whatever way you can say. There is father. You do not know? Here, the father says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: "Yes, I am." We believe in Kṛṣṇa, our knowledge is perfect. You rascal, you do not believe, do not know. Then you hover in the darkness forever and remain a rascal and declare yourself a scientist. Rascal, declaring as scientist.
Prabhupāda: That means you do not know, and you are passing your remark that life comes from chemicals. Such a rascal you are. You do not know what is the thing, and still, you are declaring your knowledge. You are misleading people. And you are captured, you say, "Yes, wait millions of years. We shall do it by trying." What is this nonsense? All post-dated check. So these rascals should be stopped. Speaking all lies, propaganda. Let him go to hell, I don't mind. But why they are misleading others? That is the greatest harm they have done. We attack them only for this reason. Otherwise, individually, you go to hell. Who cares for you? But in the name of science and becoming a scientist, you are misleading others. Andhā yathāndhaiḥ. You are blind rascal, and you are leading other blind men. Why you are doing these harmful activities? You are admitting that you are blindly believing. So you are blind. You remain blind if you don't accept knowledge. Why you are trying to lead other blind men? Let them have knowledge. They have got the opportunity, this human form of life.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But wait. Let him come in. The point is that if you keep yourself in ignorance, then what is the use of advancing further? If your basic principle is calculated wrong, then whatever you construct on that wrong background, everything is wrong. One mistake done in the beginning, then plus minus, plus minus, ultimately it is wrong. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that unless you take seriously what Kṛṣṇa says, you are simply jumping like animals. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all, you understand your position, what Kṛṣṇa says. Then go ahead. You do not understand the basic principle what Kṛṣṇa says and you are declaring yourself, "I am reading Bhagavad-gītā and Bhagavad-gītā is my life," and so on.
Mr. Koshi: Interpretation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spoil their own life and spoil others. This is going on. The meaning is clear, but these rascals are thinking that "Meaning is not clear. Kṛṣṇa left for me to clear the meaning." That's all. Such rascals, they are touching Bhagavad-gītā. As if Kṛṣṇa left for him to clear the meaning. These rubbish things we want to stop. Of course, it is not possible. Many others are. But we are trying little, that's all. We cannot make any compromise. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is a fact. They are completely under the grip of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi (BG 3.27). They are declaring independence. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate (BG 3.27). False, ahaṅkāra, egotism. Nature in one slap, crack! Indira Gandhi is so powerful, one slap, "Get out." What can you do? One slap is sufficient. They do not understand. Jump. They do not know. They are completely under the control of prakṛti, and prakṛti is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). They do not discuss this. Still they are scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Simply picking up some words, they become scholar. Is that scholarship? They do not read even the whole Bhagavad-gītā, neither they understand. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: So He declares that bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra: (CC Adi 9.41) "Anyone who has taken birth as human being, not cats and dogs..." Cats and dogs, they simply jump whole night: "Gow! Gow! Gow!" That is another... We find so many dogs, whole night busy, watching. Whose property he is watching? But he... He has got this business, very busy. As soon as some motorcycle or some..., "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" watching, watching, watching. So therefore this is business of cats and dogs. But human being's business is different. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra: (CC Adi 9.41) "Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in India, bhārata-bhūmi..." Janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra: "First of all make your life perfect"—you have got the opportunity, Vedic culture—"and then distribute the knowledge all over the world for doing good to the whole human society." That will glorify the prestige of India. So why not continue this? Let there be an institution fully following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā, Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. Then people will be benefited. If you say, "It is secular," Bhagavad-gītā is for every man. There is no question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian or this or that, no.
Prabhupāda: But what is the use of serving? What you can do? What service you have done? You cannot do anything beyond the laws of nature. Now Indira is in difficulty. What can you do? In one day, everything is finished. The law of nature is so strict. You cannot do anything. You are falsely proud that you want to do. It is not possible. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). You can do only the service, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul, your business is this." This is dharma(?).
- tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
- na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
- tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukham...
- (SB 1.5.18)
Now they are declaring... Our Mrs. Gandhi also said, daridra-anadha.(?) Then what she has done?
Ram Jethmalani: No, she has not done anything.
Prabhupāda: No, no, now she is adha(?). So who is doing this? You are completely under the laws of nature. You cannot violate. If you are tied up, hands and legs, what you can do? First of all liberate yourself. Then talk of liberating others.
Prabhupāda: And that declaration should be taken. That you are already taking.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I am in the process of getting them all, oaths of allegiance.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Oath of allegiance. That should be maintained.
Rāmeśvara: So we've already fixed it up for the American temples, with three GBC men assigned to each building, but it hasn't been mentioned in the will.
Prabhupāda: No, why not?
Rāmeśvara: It should be. So we'll have to add a clause...
Prabhupāda: Add it.
Rāmeśvara: "...as the Founder-Ācārya; 4. that I further declare, say and confirm that I have no personal claim or interest in these said properties or any..." It says, "position alone...," "...and the same solely belongs to the said society, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, absolutely. That which is stated above is true to the best of my knowledge, information and belief. Witnessed..." The witnesses swear to that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (tape very faint throughout) ...divorce, child-killing or making the children hippies, that all. Or find out some war to destroy them. When it is unmanageable, they declare war: "Engage these rascals." The politicians do that. When they cannot manage, they declare war, because they are not human beings; they are animals, Churchill and Hitler and this... "Start some war and finish this population." Or it may be nature's law. "When there is unnecessary population let there be war, famine, pestilence." That is one theory, Malthus' theory.
Śatadhanya: Whose?
Prabhupāda: Malthus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "You told us about three years ago when we first reported some of our success to you that this was only a beginning. Little did we know at that time how much truth was in this declaration. Now we are literally seeing your fame being spread all over the three worlds."
Prabhupāda: Slow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Everywhere we go, people either know about you or they are very eager to find out about Kṛṣṇa and yourself by reading your books. Anyone who has distributed your books in the Communist countries will support my claim that nowhere in the world are people more appreciative of your books." He's been everywhere, Prabhupāda, and he says that your books are more appreciated in the Communist countries than anywhere else in the world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are hungry. (break) What to speak of saintly men. (break) ...honest, satisfied with simple living.
Prabhupāda: Please try to... Just try to understand. There is a story that a thief entered in a room, and the proprietor, he was in the other room. As soon as there was some sound, he inquired, "Who is there in that room?" The man said, "No, no, I am not stealing." You see? That means he is thief. So this voting board raised the question, "How they are getting visa?" In the Parliament also they are raising the same question. That means it is Communist manipulation, the Māyāpur affair. They put forward some Muhammadans because there are many Muhammadan Communist also. They wanted to give a communal color. But the whole thing is Communist plan. And their aim is to wipe out any religious movement. That is their open declaration in other Communist...
Yaśomatīnandana: This prabhu, Rāma-Krishna Prabhu, is very respectable gentleman. So if I take him to see the Home Minister...
Prabhupāda: Nice.
| Page Title: | Declare (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of Aug, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=199, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 199 |