Prabhupāda: Then what is this? Why do they not take consideration that "We are making so much improvement, what improvement we have done about these four things?" They have no. And still they're very much proud, advanced in education, science. But the four primary miserable conditions, they remain as they are. You see? There may be advancement in medical science, but there is no medicine which can claim "No more disease, come on." Is there any medicine? So what is that advancement? Rather, disease are increasing in different forms. They have invented nuclear weapon. What is that? To kill. But have you invented something so that no more men will die? That is credit. Man is dying every moment, so you have invented something to accelerate that death. That's all. Is that very, very good credit? So there is no solution of death. They are trying to stop the, I mean to say, overpopulation. But where is the solution? Every minute, there are three persons increasing. That is the statistics. So there is no solution for birth, there is no solution for death, there is no solution for disease and there is no solution for old age.
Credit (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Expressions researched:
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Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Because we are... Any orthodox Hindu may come, but we have got our weapons, Vedic evidences. So nobody has come. But even Christian priest... Even Christian priests in America, they love me. They say that "These boys..., our boys... They are Americans. They are Christians. They are Jews. And these boys are so much after God, and we could not deliver them?" They're admitting. Their fathers, their parents, come to me. They also flatly offer their obeisances and say, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come. You are teaching God consciousness." So on the contrary, I have got reception from other countries. And India also, as you inquired of India, all other sects, they're admitting that before me many hundreds of swamis went there, but they could not convert to Kṛṣṇa consciousness a single person. They are admiring that. And so far I am concerned, I don't take any credit, but I am confident that because I am presenting the Vedic knowledge as it is, without any adulteration, it is being effective. That is my contribution. Just like if you have got a right medicine and if you administer to a patient, you must be sure that he'll cure.
Prabhupāda: Just like Calcutta and Bombay, what was there? The same Deity was and saṅkīrtana was there and I was speaking say for a half an hour. But why these forty thousand, thirty thousand people were coming? They were coming to see, "Oh, how Americans have taken to this philosophy(?)." That is their surprise. They are giving credit only for that purpose. This man also. So there is good chance of preaching in India in this respect. We want some men to preach there. It will be great work. So I think in each center, from each center you can contribute one man, and some of you leaders may go. There are already, organize. People are very much attracted. They are wanting..., giving us money, they want to give us place, there is no scarcity of food, there is no question. But this Immigration Department, they will harass. But we have to manage somehow or other. We shall have to keep always at least 100 men in India. So how to do it? That we will consider and do it. That's all. (devotees offer obeisances) Now chalk out your plan how to preach nicely all over the world. So Viṣṇujana Maharaja, how many centers?
Viṣṇujana: Just two.
Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to...
Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like your English people. They were welcome. Lord Clive was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit and he is worshiped. That is Western civilization.
Devotee: Yes, I've heard.
Prabhupāda: Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization. Write all this in papers and everything, all openly. Challenge strongly. First of all, realize, then challenge. (break) Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the special distinction, that their life, human life must be based on dharma, religion. They have rejected dharma. That is another type of frustration because the so-called leaders of religion, they could not give anything. They also exploited people under religious sentiment. Actually they could not make people religious. They did not know what is religion. And therefore people become, revolted: "What is this nonsense? They are living at our expenditure." We are real religious people. We are enlightening people about religion, life, about God. And these people they simply take money and live peacefully. And drink also. Here they drink wine. In India they drink gāñjā. You have been Rādhā-Dāmodara temple? You have seen that Gosāi?
Śyāmasundara: Is he still there?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: It is māyā. I give you piece of paper and you think on thousand rupees. This is māyā.
Guest: Yes. You see it depends on the credit to the man who gives the promise. Paper is mainly the document of credit. Governments have till now kept their credit, but now they have learned to disregard their promises also.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: So that is one of the main troubles.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya. We... Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted?
Dr. Kapoor: So he was knighted, you see, by the British government.
Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. (guest laughs) Just like Nehru bribed one Mukerjee, Rādhā-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, doctor, to write book where he has supported cow slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Because according to Darwin's theory, your forefather was monkey. So their theory is that long before there were monkeys only. How such high philosophical thoughts could come?
Dr. Kapoor: It is true that in England there were only monkeys there. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: On this theory, all their philosophy is going on. So if they give credit that Indians were so high scholars and philosophers, then the whole theory is spoiled. Because brain is developing, and the background of brain was monkey. So how such philosophical highly moral scholarly work can be done? And this is going on. If Bhāgavata is accepted as we accept that five thousand years ago it was written, then their whole civilization becomes topsy-turvy.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, you don't know yourself. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes, actually Kapoorji, I do not know how things are going like this. I tell you frankly. I have no credit. But things are going on like this. It is something like—of course, I am not comparing exactly—just like Kṛṣṇa could not understand about His potency and, therefore He became Rādhārāṇī's feature to understand Himself. So... Of course, I... This is a comparison. Things are taking very wonderfully. Very wonderfully. Just see these boys and girls, how seriously they have taken.
Prabhupāda: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men(?). If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind, the professor has died. We create another person like." That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy or xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you had the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their, the shape is made after the bird. The original shape bird is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that. That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest.
Devotee (1): They can't even make a cell.
Prabhupāda: Then what is their credit?
Devotee (1): They have made a computer.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (1): They have made a computer, but it takes a human being to program the computer.
Prabhupāda: So what is their credit? If you simply copy something, that is not credit. The credit should go to the original.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientists admit that there is nothing new that they can make. Everything is the manipulation of the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Then the thing is that as they are individual person trying to do something wonderful, the individual person who has already done all this wonderful, how much credit He deserves. If by simply copying you want to take so much credit that you will defy the existence of God, you are so fool, rascal, then how much credit should be given to the original person who has made all these things existing. What is their answer?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They simply don't care.
Prabhupāda: You will do, that's all right, you will do it, but it is already there. What is your credit, you will do it? It is already there, then what is your credit?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They choose to ignore it.
Prabhupāda: Even if you do that, the already one who has done it, why don't you give Him credit?
Devotee (1): Yeah, instead of being envious.
Prabhupāda: Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān (BG 16.19), they are envious, rascal. Envious means rascal. That is material quality. And spiritual quality means to praise good quality. "Oh, you are so nice, you have got so good quality." That is spiritual. And enviousness, "Oh, this man is surpassing me. All right, I..."
Devotee (1): Cut him down.
Prabhupāda: That's right. This is material. Matsaratā. This is explained in Bhāgavata as matsaratā. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavaḥ vastu vedyam atra (SB 1.1.2).
Prabhupāda: And he wants the respect of a millionaire immediately, with future tense. Just see. "You give me the respect of a millionaire. I shall become in future a millionaire." What is this nonsense? First of all you become millionaire, then ask the respect. They want the credit beforehand. Trust no future, however pleasant. Why shall I believe you?
Devotee (1): There's a lake over there. There's a pond, we can walk down there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, bridge we are not going to cross? All right.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Every time they find something new they should be glorifying Krsna.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Oh. You have made this nice park, but with the help of God, who has created all these trees. You cannot do that. This means that you try to help or cooperate with God, then your credit is all right. Just like God has created this tree, and you are cooperating to make it nicely trimmed, make this path, this is cooperation. You take this much credit. But the first credit given to God, who has created this tree.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Does this remind you of Vṛndāvana, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is this like Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana is different. This is man-made.
Prabhupāda: So come to Los Angeles and stay there for some time. I am going to Los Angeles tomorrow, so you can come. Live with us and you will be happy. We can guarantee you will be happy. Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Our Vedic mission is sarve sukhino bhavantu: everyone be happy. This is our mission. And we know how to become happy. That is our credit. We know. How to become happy we know. Therefore, you can inform others also how to become happy. Happiness is our birthright. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). Living entity is ānandamaya, full of happiness, but they have fallen in a different condition. Therefore unhappy. Different condition. Just like fish taken out of the water and put into the land, a different condition, and it is throbbing, flapping, unhappy. Take it, put it in the water again, and it will be happy. That's it.
Guest: I don't want to take too much of your time up.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end)
Prabhupāda: That is, that is temporary. Suppose a scientist has discovered this nice lamp. So I give him credit, but I can do without this lamp. It is not very necessary. (laughter)
Indian: The modern science is medicine.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Indian: Medical science.
Prabhupāda: What medical science? Can they stop disease? That is the problem. If they can stop disease then I can accept that they know something. What is their...
Devotee: In India the doctors, simply by feeling your pulse they know everything that's wrong with you.
Prabhupāda: No. Even that. No physician can stop disease. He can suggest, "This is very nice medicine," but my problem is, "Why shall I become diseased?" That is my problem.
Prabhupāda: There is no spiritual philosophy. It is an academic, ordinary college. People understand that where is the credit, there are so many colleges. Responsible people, they understand that I am doing much more valuable thing. So what is the use of these schools and colleges? That (indistinct) school, college is not very good. And there are so many schools and colleges. That is not a very extraordinary thing.
Gurudāsa: Now I understand that Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, that school is not teaching spiritual philosophy. I told many people that if we got the chance to open a university, we would not compromise. We would not do anything with the government if they restricted our curriculum...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: At every āratik in early morning, at least 150 men. Even though I am not present, by system, by kīrtana, dancing, offering Deity worship nicely (indistinct). So we have to maintain the standard very strictly. Otherwise it will again become Rādhā-Dāmodara temple and Bharatpur Mahārāja (indistinct). You will have to find out some customer to sell it. What is the use of starting temple if you do not do it properly? Why should you waste your energy? Better travel and preach. Don't take the risk of starting big, big temple. As soon as the energy is gone, there will be trouble. That Govindajī's temple, that man lost everything because he was cheating. If this man is also cheating, then he will also. Our Tīrtha Mahārāja is cheating, then what is his...? He got so many things but he could not do anything. Now he is after these buildings, that's all. Otherwise, what is his credit? He is not a good preacher. He was at the head of Caitanya Maṭha. How much duty was..., heavy duty he had to preach. But he has no preaching capacity.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) If the government sponsor, then we can invest money and (indistinct).
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: We can print.
Devotee (2): Dai Nippon, we have credit also.
Prabhupāda: We can do anywhere. That is the difference. As far as the government must encourage it as soon as we translate and distribute, they should give us full facility.
Devotee (2): Full facilities for...
Prabhupāda: All the schools, colleges will take it.
Devotee (2): Oh, yes. I see. I see.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes, I thought that (indistinct) Guru Mahārāja wanted and these Gauḍīya Math people did not do anything, so let me try in this old age. The inspiration came, and I went. By his grace it has become little successful, that's all. I have no credit. It is all the blessings of guru and Vaiṣṇava, that's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening, because I am not at all bona fide position. But it is truly chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā nistāra pāyeche kebā.
Śrīdhara Mahārāja: Are you going (indistinct) kindly talk with your men (?).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in the womb. So that is not advancement.
Karandhara: The womb's already doing it very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Nicely. What is your credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to, they want to be very proud that they'll be able to do it outside the womb.
Prabhupāda: But that's all right. At least you are not able to do it now. But where is the credit because it is already being done.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: In the nature's test tube.
Prabhupāda: They are not... We don't accept them as human beings. We accept them as animals. So one animal is being praised by other animals. That's all. And that is no credit. That means if, at the present, if anyone gets Nobel Prize, that means he's fool number one. That is the... Because the other animals are praising. No human being.
Devotee: Yes. yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But that is the ultimate aim for the scientists.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Scientists means they are rascals. They're talking nonsense. And because they are putting the matter in some jugglery of words, other fools are being misled.
Devotee: We should go back, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Break) All these scientists, they discover so many things. Why they did not discover something that he would not die? He would not become old? Where is that discovery? They will say: "Yes, in future." One man is kicking on your face, and you are saying: "Yes, in future, when I shall become strong, I shall kick him." But you are, my dear sir, being kicked now. What you are doing now? "Yes, I'm getting strength by your kicking." So you all write very strongly, vehemently. Even it is little offensive, still these rascals should be taught good lesson. Yes. They're misleading. Godlessness. As soon as you say "God created", immediately they become arrogant. That is our protest. If they accept God, then we give them all credit. That's all right. Otherwise zero. We don't deprecate their intention of advancement in knowledge. But we simply protest against their defying the authority of God. That is our point.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The living entities, when the soul is inside a body, they're much more flexible than the, the aeroplanes or cars that are made by the scientists?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The aeroplane wings, they're fixed up. But the bird wings, he can do like this. Even they can do like that, where is the credit? It is already there. Many millions and thousands. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In physical sciences, there's a branch called thermodynamics that deals with the transfer of heat and energy in different forms. So their three laws is called first law, second law and the third law. First law deals with the conservation of energy in different forms. And the second law, it is stated that the energy of the universe is constant. Just like the, in the Śrī Īśopaniṣad, the Invocation, pūrṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Iso Invocation).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the other hand the second law says that the, the entropy, that means the randomness of the all natural, spontaneously occurring natural processes, always increase. The randomness...
Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect.
Prabhupāda: But why don't you create from sand? Flying like that. You are so advanced. Take some grains of sand and create another fly. They cannot create even an ant, and still they say that life is coming out from matter. And in future we shall create. In future, what is your credit? It is already there. If your science is perfect, that life is coming out of matter, now prove it by laboratory experiment. Take some sand and create some life. (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they're concluding, the scientists, that without having the real knowledge of their investigation. Because they are concluding that life started from matter, but there's no proof.
Prabhupāda: No proof. How they can say so? (pause) If they accept that life started from life, then they'll have to accept God, the Supreme Person. Just like by practical experience we see one life is produced by another life. The father, mother begets a child. Not that a child drops from the sky. Their test tube experiment also depends on the father and mother. So what is that? Where is the proof? In the test tube you mix some chemical and produce a child. Then your theory is all right. You cannot create even an ant, even a fly. And still you are claiming that you can manufacture human being?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow we have to remove the covering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) We don't give any credit to any man if he's not Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our final conclusion. We can give credit so much, as you have got. Just like you are a driver. So I can give you the credit of a driver. But I cannot give you the credit of a high-court judge. So much, what you know, that much credit...
Brahmānanda: Future.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When in future you become high-court judge, then I shall give you credit. Why before you want to take credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So one has to have certain qualifications.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got. The bird has got also certain qualifications.
Prabhupāda: And when there's profit, that is His credit. Then he'll say: "Oh, I have worked so hard. Now I have got this profit." And when there is calamity, "Oh, what can I do, it is God's desire."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we experience almost daily that we suffer so much. So we see almost daily that people are dying, they are killed in the car accident...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...burned in houses...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...so many things. We experience almost daily.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our mission. That is the duty of the spiritual master. Nānā-śāstra-vicāraṇaika-nipuṇau sad-dharma-saṁsthāpakau lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau. The spiritual master is the most beneficent friend, he is giving you direction from the śāstra. Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau: "He is the real welfare worker for the human society." Lokānāṁ hita-kāriṇau tri-bhuvane mānyau śaraṇyākarau, rādhā-kṛṣṇa-padāravinda-bhajanānandena mattālikau vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau śrī-jīva-gopālakau. You see śāstra is giving direction. So many lawyers are going to the school colleges to learn the government laws. Why they are taking so much trouble? Just to give people the direction that "You work under this direction, you will not be in difficulty." Similarly the spiritual master is the lawyer. He knows things as they are. He gives direction to the disciple so that he'll be happy. He will not be in trouble. This is guru-śiṣya-sampatti. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. By the mercy of guru everything is... Bhagavat-prasādaḥ, immediately, mercy of God. Oh, it is coming. No. Now, one should study the sprinkler. We'll give credit, "Oh, who has manufactured this sprinkler?" But there is no glorification for the original sprinkler, who takes all the water in the sky and sprinkles all over. There is no appreciation, rascal. You appreciate this thing.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Very good. Yes. You have to go and lecture all the universities, calling these rascals fools. That will be our mission. They do not know anything and talking all nonsense. That's it. There was nobody to challenge till now. Now we are creating persons to challenge these rascals. That is our credit. Till now whatever nonsense they are talking, people thought, "Oh he is a big scientist." Now our scientist will protest against them, stop them talking all nonsense. That is what we want. If a lay man like me goes and protesting, he may say that "First of all you come to my level, then I shall talk with you." Now, he cannot talk with you like that. Because you are on the level. So challenge all this nonsense. Why they talk nonsense? So later on, other persons, they did not talk with you?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the chairman of the department, he was telling later on that "About theology let us talk later on." So he dispersed the meeting after that. Theology, they thought, that I was talking on theology.
Prabhupāda: It is not theology, it is science.
Prabhupāda: So that is also nice. We are not afraid of meeting any philosopher or scientist, but they are afraid. That is our credit. All scientists know that they are on the wrong basis, but because they are scientists, they say like that. That is their position. They do not believe in their own statement. Therefore he said, "I do not know."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because there is no solid background.
Prabhupāda: No. (pause, japa) You and Dr. Rao just make a combination, world-touring. I shall give you all expenditure. And go to the universities, scientists, and talk with them. Our kīrtana party also will go. We challenge all scientists, "Come on." We shall pay all expenditure. Ask Dr. Rao to come and join. Just like in Calcutta University, all the students... No, one leader student, he came. He talked about economic development, and he said that "Our students did not derive any faith by your theological statement." So I told them that "Because you are all rascals, therefore you could not."
Prabhupāda: That's like you, chemist, just missing something, "In future we shall do it." It is the same thing. And these fools, Dr. Radhakrishnan and company, they are so fools that so many animals they are walking on the sea, "I am going to see another man." Just see, how they are fools. What is their credit? The sea lark. They call sea lark? They go very nicely. Why do they not see that? He is animal, he is, another is an animal.
Kṛṣṇa-Kāntī: Birds can float and they can fly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So Dr. Radhakrishnan was a big rascal.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I could not believe by that time. I said, "It cannot be possible."
Prabhupāda: No, it is possible. It is possible. If one has practiced yoga system, He can become light. To walk over the water means to become very light, like cotton swab. Then he can walk. He can fly also. In Siddha-lokas, the inhabitants there, they fly in the sky. From one planet to another planet they go by flying. There is Siddha-loka planet. Therefore they are called Siddha-loka, means they have all perfection of this yogic mystic power.
Paramahaṁsa: Or worn by age.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have all been described as māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ: (BG 7.15) "Their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."
Paramahaṁsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....
Prabhupāda: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the śūdras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of śūdras. These scientists, they are also śūdras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brāhmaṇa means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And this industrial development means technologists; they are śūdras.
Prabhupāda: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to him it is simply by chance.
Prabhupāda: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?
Prabhupāda: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say, that "I am trying to..." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You as you don't trust, because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you?
Umāpati: Give them a lot of credit.
Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past.
Prabhupāda: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?
Paramahaṁsa: Helped death.
Prabhupāda: Good morning. ...that "Such chemicals, such molecules, such this, that," there are so many things. But (laughing) you have no power to drive it away.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah. They have no explanation how the mist is formed. They call...
Prabhupāda: That you can do. That is, I can do also. It is not very great credit. But if you know how it is formed, then counteract it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We know how it is formed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you know, then you discover, counteracting. Just like formerly, in the warfare the atomic brahmāstra was thrown. On the other side... brahmāstra means excessive heat. So they caused something, they transformed into water. Because after heat, there must be water. So where is that science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is just like milk. Milk looks white, but it is just water. They call it, it's a colloidal suspension of proteins, these caseins, in water. So similarly, this fog is just a colloidal suspension of water in the air.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you create some fire. It will be immediately driven away. Water can be driven away by fire. So you create. That you cannot. You just shot one bomb. There will be some heat, and all the mist will go away. Do it.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "You fully surrender. I give you full protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). He will give you full intelligence. (break) ...these facts in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That will be our great success when the scientific world will admit. Let them admit simply. Then our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement will (be) great success. You simply admit, "Yes, there is God and mystic power." Then our movement is very successful. And that's a fact. Simply talking like a nonsense amongst the nonsense, that is not a very great credit. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). One blind man is leading other blind man. What is the value of such? They are all blind. And so long one remains blind and rascal, he does not accept God. This is the test. As soon as we see that he does not accept God, he is blind, rascal, fool, whatever you can call. Take it for granted, however, whatever he may be. He's a rascal. On this principle we can challenge so many big, big chemist, philosopher, whoever comes to us. We say, "You are demon." The other chemist came, you brought him, that Indian?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Hm. Chouri.(?)
Prabhupāda: Chouri. (laughing) So I told him that "You are a demon." But he was not angry. He admitted. And all his argument was refuted. Perhaps you remember.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, in fact, he was telling that "Kṛṣṇa didn't give me all the procedures, steps, how to do the experiment." He was saying like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why shall I give you? You are a rascal, you are against Kṛṣṇa, why Kṛṣṇa will give you facility? If you are against Kṛṣṇa and you want the credit without Kṛṣṇa, that's not possible. You must be submissive first of all. Then Kṛṣṇa will give you all facilities. Just like we dare to face any chemist, any scientist, any philosopher. Why? On the strength of Kṛṣṇa, we believe that "There is Kṛṣṇa. When I shall talk with him, Kṛṣṇa will give give me intelligence." This is the basics. Otherwise, from qualification, standard, they are very much qualified. We are common laymen before them. But how do we challenge them? Because we know. Just like a small child He can challenge a very big man because he knows, "My father is there." He is catching the hand of the father, and he's sure that "Nobody can do anything to me."
Prabhupāda: They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect. Just like the scientists, they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And ...the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see, so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that "This is the creation of such and such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him.
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Schumacher: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now, everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, how to become a brāhmaṇa, how to become a kṣatriya, how to become a vaiśya, how to become a śūdra, or how to remain less important than the śūdras. The societies must be divided in different divisions. They should work conjointly... (end)
Prabhupāda: ...here is a very nice, educated man. He's very nice. But we say, "No. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's as dangerous as if he is ordinary man." We don't give any credit. (break)
Acyutānanda: Which is more important, to go back to Godhead or spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Well, one who is preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's already back to Godhead. (break) ...īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā girā. Preacher means he has engaged his body, his mind, his speeches only to glorify the Lord. That is preacher. So anybody who's engaged that business, he's jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate. He's liberated even in this life. (break) ...even if he's liberated. So why he should seek for liberation? He's already liberated. He's already back to Godhead. He's already with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is talking with him. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi... One who is actually preacher, engaged in Kṛṣṇa's glorification, service, he's already in Vaikuṇṭha. That is stated in Bhāgavata. Etad īśanam... It's just like Kṛṣṇa. If He comes within this material world, does it mean that he's in the material world? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa's pure devotee, he's not in the material world. In the spiritual world.
Devotee: Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
- tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer
- bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
- yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kiṁ
- ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ
- (SB 1.5.17)
Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ hareḥ. Just like many of our disciples, as a matter of civilized man they should have remained at home, obedient to the parents, get married and live peacefully with father and mother. Of course, European, American boys, they do not do that. But it is expected that should be like that. Just like yourself. You should have lived with your father. He also. But you did not do this. So take it for granted, out of sentiment, you took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā sva-dharmam. To live family life, peaceful life, obedient life to the fathers and mothers, this is called sva-dharma. So one gives up this sva-dharma, tyaktvā sva-dharmam, and takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness gone... Not many, a few. So Bhāgavata says, yatra kva vābhadram abhūd amuṣya kim: "What is the wrong there?" Even if he has fallen down, half-way, still there is no wrong. He has gained something. That much service which he has already given to Kṛṣṇa, that is recorded. That is recorded. That is to his credit: "So this living entity has given service." But other men, he's very honestly living as a good citizen, as a good family member and good brāhmaṇa, good kṣatriya... So ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He's sticking to his own principle of life, but he's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee.
Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing...?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like Dr. Bose's laboratory. So Dr. Bose's laboratory, I was manager. Then I took his agency, very good terms. I was earning money like anything. But the next manager, he became envious. He began to poison Dr. Bose, to cut off our relationship. So it happened. Then, when I was Dr. Bose's agent, I become so much famous that Bengal Chemical, the biggest chemical factory, he, they wanted to give me the agency. If I would have taken that agency, I would have been the richest man in the chemical world. You see. But they made some condition. So I did not accept it. I wanted in my condition. That is the very little... But I was puffed-up, that "I am such a big... And this man is flattering. So I must get my condition fulfilled." So I did not accept it. The Smith Stanstreet gave me agency. Because in my work, in Dr. Bose's laboratory, I did it very creditably. So every other manufacturers, they became attracted to me, how to get me. The Smith Stanstreet Company, Bikepala(?) Company, Bose's, Bengal Chemical Company, they all wanted me. And I thought, "Oh, everyone wants me." So, so I refused. And later on there was a clique between Dr. Bose and me. So I lost everything. Then I started my own laboratory. Somehow or other, there was something, and...
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Manufacturing?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is small manufacturing. So I got very, very good chance. But Kṛṣṇa did not allow it. He wanted me to come to this point. That is my practical experience. And now I'm seeing that it is Kṛṣṇa's so much favor. You see? Yasyāham, anugṛhnāmi... It is, it is, actually it is His grace. "What he'll do by becoming Birla, rich man like Birla?" That was Kṛṣṇa's plan. "Come here. Do this work." You see. My Guru Mahārāja ordered. Kṛṣṇa wanted. I was resisting Him. That's all. I was actually very expert businessman in chemical line. I did it very creditably in Bose's laboratory as manager and my own business. And everyone knows... Even in manufacturing also.
Brahmānanda: And then you devised the program for distributing them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, practically India's, our, whatever we have got, it is starting with that five thousand dollars.
Śyāmasundara: Five thousand dollars.
Brahmānanda: But it's like you were investing, taking goods on credit, and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And this membership became successful.
Brahmānanda: Then you devised the method for distribution.
Prabhupāda: This membership.
Śyāmasundara: Even the way you went to America in the beginning. You couldn't take money.
Prabhupāda: No.
Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Because Viṣṇu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaiṣṇava. When he begged, humble, "Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Viṣṇu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Kṛṣṇa said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gītā, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gītā. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Bali Mardana: Wireless, radio.
Prabhupāda: Yes, radio. That was Jagadisha Candra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadisha Candra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. They bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom.
Jayādvaita: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad-gītā is only two thousand years old, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will never accept it.
Prabhupāda: What is the credit there? It is already there. So what credit he can get?
Karandhara: Best they just imitated what has already happened.
Prabhupāda: Imitated. Just like, that I explained also. The example is that when an imitation barking is there, people go and purchase ticket. And when real barking is there, nobody cares. This is their business. They are so fool that their government is purchasing the ticket, and they're hearing the imitation barking. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But once they are successful they are going to make super beings they are called super beings, superhuman beings, super animals.
Prabhupāda: But they cannot create even an ant, and now they are going to make super beings. This is another foolishness. They cannot create even an ant, moving ant, and they're going to make super being. Just see. And we have to believe them. (laughter) We are not so fools. Your so-called scientists may be fools, but we are not so fools.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in due course if they create these amino acids, there are 20 amino acids which are necessary for the body, for the material body.
Prabhupāda: But it is already created. What is your credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want to do it themselves.
Prabhupāda: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.
Yaśomatīnandana: The big, big soap factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.
Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit.
Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing, and increasing or decreasing?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We shall come down? The water is coming or...?
Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are very big.
Prabhupāda: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Karandhara: Now there is a big scarcity of dye, coloring dye.
Prabhupāda: Ah, take from here red color. Yes, they can increase the scarcity. That's all. That is in their power.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say...,
Prabhupāda: Yes, but the iron is not manufactured by you. Neither the magnetic stone is manufactured by you. You take nature's product and utilize it. That is not your original creation. So what is credit to you? You can transform. That is in your hand. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). There are two things: material and spiritual, inferior energy and superior energy. Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho. The living entities, they are superior energy. Why superior? They can take the materials and handle. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat. That is your superior energy. You can take the matters and combine it and make something else. That is the world, going on, matter and spirit. You have created your own body by your desire. So that you can do, but the materials, the body, you cannot create. That is not in your power.
Prabhupāda: Now, in your laboratory, by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, if you produce one ounce of water, what is your credit? Here is vast water already.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it was not done before in the lab.
Prabhupāda: It is done already; otherwise where the water came? You do not know who did it. That is your ignorance.
Hṛdayānanda: So it just enviousness. They're just envious.
Prabhupāda: Foolishness. Enviousness means one must be able. But they are not able. Simply foolishness.
Bali Mardana: They have created artificial gems, like...
Prabhupāda: Just like you are a powerful man. I am a powerful man. I become envious. That is allowed. But I'm not powerful, I'm trying to imitate you, it is foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Transparent, you can see everything from the house.
Prabhupāda: So what is the credit there?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that is an improvement.
Bali Mardana: But the plastic depends on oil.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. They are going to hell and still they are thinking, "improvement." This is their foolishness. Foolish means that, that he's going to hell, but he's thinking, "improving." This is their...
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, wouldn't it be more sincere if these people, these scientists said, "We don't want to be taken out of this dream, that with our senses and with all the machines built on senses we will be able to make it"? But they don't want to be taken out of that dream.
Prabhupāda: But that is their foolishness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "New frontier of knowledge."
Prabhupāda: Yes, because the new frontier of knowledge for the rascals not for the intelligent men. They're... The same example. If somebody imitates barking of the dog, if he says, "This is new frontier of knowledge," so a foolish man can believe that "How you have learned to bark like dog! Oh, great advancement." But an intelligent man says "What is the use of this barking, imitation barking? There is already dogs who are barking." Just like there is a... It is a fact, not story. One man, he went out of his village, and after ten years, he came back, advertised himself that "I have become successful in yoga practice." So naturally villagers surrounded him. "Oh, you have...? What yoga practice you have learned?" "I can walk on the water." "Oh?" Actually, even at the present moment, if somebody comes and says, "I can walk...," many people will come, thousands of men. So when everything, arrangement was that he'll cross the river, walking on the water, one old man came. He said, "Sir, it is very wonderful, but it is two paise worth. Two paise worth." "Why?" "Now, you will walk and go the other side; I'll take a boat, pay him two paise. I'll do the same thing. So what is your credit?" So those who are actually intelligent men, they will take like that, that "What actual profit you have made?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So just exactly like that, the scientists, they're trying to learn something what was not known before.
Prabhupāda: No, what is not known? Barking was already known. Suppose if you can produce life, life is already there. What is your credit? Life is al...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that's not enough.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that knowledge is not enough.
Prabhupāda: No, why not enough? Everyone knows that a man and woman combines and there is life again.
Karandhara: Well, they want to control the process.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: They want to control the process because...
Prabhupāda: Why, why you should control? Why?
Karandhara: That is the reason of their research.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Control the process. They cannot control. They are trying to control to minimize population, but the record is that every minute there is three men increasing. Every minute. The population increasing. It is not diminishing. In spite of their so many contraceptive methods, killing, abortion, the population is increasing. You cannot stop it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They'll say... They give the credit to the medical science. They say...
Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Medical science has advanced so much that now people are...
Prabhupāda: Medical science has given the chance of committing sinful activities. That's all. And the medical man and the man who is committing such sinful activities, they will suffer. This is the advantage of their so-called medical science. They do not know. They have, they have sanctioned this abortion, medical science. Means they have given chance to commit sinful activities. That's all. So so many rascaldom is going on all over the world, and we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, wants to stop all this nonsense, and save the humanity from going down to the animal kingdom. That is our program.
Prajāpati: They claim to see light inside, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but we say, "If we hit you on head, you will see light inside also."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone sees. What is your credit? If I kick on your face, you will find the light. So come here, I shall kick on your face and you'll see the light. (laughter) There is no need of Guru Maha...
Yaśomatīnandana: His disciples are usually very naive and very foolish.
Prabhupāda: Unless they are foolish, how they can go there? Anyone who goes there, that means he is a foolish. That is the test. "A man is known by his company." Because all these rascals and fools go there, therefore he is a fool and rascal. It is concluded.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. (indistinct) We are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi (CC Adi 7.71). He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one, that "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you, (indistinct), five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paise even, and I deliver it, that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver this amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection.
Prabhupāda: You get credit just by cramming.
Girirāja:
- arjuna uvāca
- mad anugrahāya paramaṁ
- guhyam adhyātma-samjñitam
Prabhupāda: Ah, read it.
Girirāja:
- yat tvayoktaṁ vacas tena
- moho 'yaṁ vigato mama
- (BG 11.1)
"Arjuna said: I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me, and my illusion is now dispelled."
Prabhupāda: There must be the word meaning. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the credit. Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned that "This time in Western countries, this saṅkīrtana movement..." So it is our duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme, then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad-gītā, is explained
- vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
- ekeha kuru-nandana
- bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
- buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
- (BG 2.41)
So those who are vyavasāya, niścayātmika-buddhi, their duty is to carry out the orders of the Supreme. And the Supreme is giving order in two ways: as caittya-guru from within and as spiritual master. Inside and outside.
Dr. Patel: Consult your ātmā within in action.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, to receive the order of Kṛṣṇa, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12), one should approach the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa and take order from Him what to do, and that is his only duty. That is his only duty. Otherwise he will manufacture so many duties. That will not be helpful to him. That niscayatmika-buddhiḥ, that has been very nicely explained by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, that "Whatever order I receive from my guru, that is my life and soul. I don't mind whether I'll be liberated or not, whether I will be successful or not. That is not my concern. My only concern is to see whether I am factually, faithfully carrying out the order of my guru." This is... Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura notes. So these things are being explained in the same way that "You do not think which is right or wrong. You simply... I have asked you to fight. You go on fighting and take the credit. That's all."
Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation.
Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And if you say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on intelligence, sir.
Prabhupāda: What is intelligence? Mūḍhā?
Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and...
Prabhupāda: If one is a mūḍhā, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the credit of intelligence? He is a mūḍhā. One who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, he is a mūḍhā. Number one. There is no intelligence. One who has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, he has no intelligence. (end)
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...prasannātmā. Brahma-bhūta. That is called brahma-bhūta stage. Na śocati na kāṅkṣati. This happiness and distress is the cause of śocati and kāṅkṣati. Kāṅkṣati means desiring to have something. This is distress. And lamenting for something, that is also distress. Actually, this is the material position. When we haven't got the things, we desire it. That is also distress. And when it is lost, that is also distress. But by illusion, they take it. When they get it, they think that it is happiness. This is māyā. Actually, to get the things, he has to undergo so much hard... A man is given credit... Suppose he was a poor man. He has now become multi-millionaire. He is given credit. But he does not see that he has simply passed through distress. But he... By illusion, he's thinking that he's happy. He's also thinking, and others also thinking, that "He has become happy." But actually it is distress. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): But they have provided you with motorcars and aeroplanes to go across the sea, reach America, France, within a few hours.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also credit. Because they have done something...
Indian man (1): Something to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, yes. That is our mercy, that we take advantage of their creation to bless them. We don't require all these things, but we take the advantage: "Because he has done something, let us take it." Just like we are using the microphone. So we don't require any microphone, but because he has created, that is the proper utilization. Not for sense gratification, cinema song. That is not required.
Indian man (1): Cinema can be used for education.
Prabhupāda: That can be used. Everything can be used. Everything can be used. Nirbandhe kṛṣṇa sambandhe yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Therefore we are "lessoning" people that "Whatever you have done is rotten. Utilize for Kṛṣṇa." That is our purpose, not that we enjoy these.
Prabhupāda: But so far nuclear weapon is concerned, so there is no much credit. Because it is a weapon for killing, death. Is it not? Not for that purpose?
Robert Gouiran: No, no. Nuclear physics in itself is just a pure research of knowledge. But the manufacturing of weapons, that's not nuclear physics.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Robert Gouiran: That's just business.
Prabhupāda: What is the nuclear physics?
Robert Gouiran: The nuclear physics is just a search of, the search of the structure of matter.
Prabhupāda: Struggle. We cannot do anything because the bigger creative energy's there. And we are simply trying to combat with Him. So therefore, uselessly we are struggling. That's all. We cannot change. Because the bigger creative energy is different. Prakṛti, the material nature. Just like they are trying to create living being in the laboratory. So suppose you are trying to create living being by scientific, chemical combination, so what is the credit to you? Millions of living beings are created by the material energy. Where is your credit? You cannot even create a small ant up till now. So simply you are wasting your time. That's all. Therefore it is called, prakṛti-sthāni karṣati. Eh? Just like the children are playing. What is the value of this playing? They are making some howling noise. That's all. What they can do? But they are thinking they are creating so many things. "We are Ṭhākura (?)." (laughter) So you all scientists, you are doing that thing. That's all. You cannot do anything. That is not in your power. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very, very difficult, physical energy, which is being conducted... Just like you you have created this nuclear bomb, and if you take it and throw on the sun planet, what is the effect? Nuclear bomb can destroy something here. But where the... Your nuclear bomb will be destroyed if you throw it on the sun. Is it not? What is your calculation? We know the sun...
Satsvarūpa: You said: "Well, if you're sinful, there's no question of going on to a higher topic."
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is specially mentioned in the Bhāgavata: vinā paśughnāt.
- nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād
- bhavauṣadhāc chrotra-mano-'bhirāmāt
- ka uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt
- pumān virajyeta vinā paśughnāt
- (SB 10.1.4)
Everyone can understand the truth except the rascals who are meat-eaters. Vinā paśughnāt. Paśughnāt. Paśu means animals, and ghna means killer. Christ therefore first says, "You shall not kill." These rascals are killers from the very beginning, and they're continuing. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Those who are paśughna, they cannot understand. They're thinking, "We are doing very good work, philanthropic work, opening hospitals and public roads, and every ten years, we are fighting and killing all the men population." They're happy. They are taking credit for these big, big buildings, but this is duṣkṛtina because simply these buildings are meant for committing sinful activities. That's all. "Wine, women, meat-eating, gambling. We are civilized." (break) ...this Geneva very many churches.
Prabhupāda: In Delhi? He said that a man who has learned the art to, what is called, barking like dog, and people will go to see, purchasing ticket, ten rupees, twenty rupees, how the man is barking like a dog. And there are so many dogs barking. They won't see. This is our advancement. If a man has artificially learned how to bark, they'll go to see by paying fees. And the natural barking, they don't care. So these rascals are like that. They're trying to manufacture life. And so many life is coming by nature's process, millions and millions, that is no credit. And he's trying, utopian, he'll create life by chemical combination, he's given all credit, Nobel Prize: "Oh, here is a man." This is rascaldom. So what credit you'll get. Suppose if you can manufacture a man or an animal in the laboratory, where is your credit? There are many millions and millions are coming automatically. We are trying to give credit to Kṛṣṇa who is making all this creation.
Prabhupāda: I said that "You scientists, you are simply wasting time." Did I not say that, last night?
Yogeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Childish. Just imitating barking of the dog. That's all. And he wants to take credit by imitating barking the dog. And the real dog is barking—no attention. Actually, that is the position.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say that if a dog bites a man, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that's nothing special, but if a man bites a dog, that's news.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs) Yes. Just like the men ate some human flesh. That became news.
Yogeśvara: That airplane crash.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is their business. (break) ...is when the dog barks, that is not science. When the man barks like a dog, that is science. Is that not? The man, how scientifically he has learned how to bark like a dog. This is their aim, how to imitate dog-barking. This is scientific.
Prabhupāda: The Communists say, "Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say, "No, sir." "Now pray to us." "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have got this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured; that is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you... Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, He is supplying for everyone. So if He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God.
Prabhupāda: Within their power, so many things they're imagining. That is not possible. He can make a big hole only. That's all. Then where he'll stand? Suppose he finishes the earth. Then he is also finished. Then what is the credit? If you suicide, if you cut your own throat, is that very good credit? Then what is the credit? Suppose he has manufactured something that the earth will be finished. Then he'll be also finished. So what is God's loss? There are millions of earth-like planets floating in the sky. So one is lost. What is God's loss? It is your loss, that you are finished. Is that very good invention, to finish yourself? You are being finished. And now you have invented instrument to be finished. So you'll be finished. Wait for that. Why you are anxious to invent something to finish yourself? Is that very good intelligence? You'll be finished. That's a fact. So why you have invented machine to finish yourself quickly and you want to take credit? That means he proves he's a nonsense. He's a nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Because you want to be finished. You create war to be finished. God does not create. Just like you have created this weapon. In the name of finishing your enemy, you'll be finished, also. Is that very good credit? And God has created like that? You have created. Why don't you understand this?
Yogeśvara: Well, why has God permitted me to do such a horrible thing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your little independence. God does not want to touch any... By your independence, go to hell or go to heaven. That's your choice. God says that "Don't use your independence by malpractice." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām... (BG 18.66). God, that is God's statement. "You surrender to Me. I'll guide you." But if you misuse your independence, that's your business. You go to hell or heaven. That's your business. (pause)
Bhagavān: Where do we go now?
Paramahaṁsa: The car will be waiting for us down there.
Bhagavān: You're going to get it right now?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They're all demigods, these pictures?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Demi-animals.
Satsvarūpa: They think if you eliminate those, there is nothing left to live for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is Rāyarāma's statement. Yes. I am denying the bare necessities of life. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Who will try for becoming perfect in this way? Very disappointing. But still, Kṛṣṇa is so kind that helping so many. They are doing actually. All right, keep it.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Lord Caitanya's program is so attractive that even...
Prabhupāda: That is the astonishment. In India, they give me credit this, that "How it has become possible that these European boys, American boys and girls, they have taken to this path?" That they are surprised.
Yogeśvara: We don't have a very good reputation in India?
Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) How they have made easy life, that see. They are... There is a story that a boy went for examination. So when he came back, his father asked, "My dear boy, how you have written your question paper?" "Yes, very nice." "How?" "No, those questions which were very difficult, I could not answer. And the easier questions, what is to write? I know everything. (laughter) Easier questions, there is no need of writing. I know everything." Both ways he has not written anything. So these rascals, both ways they will not follow anything. And still, they will credit... Not only Christians, everywhere these people want to banish God. Simply we are canvassing "God, God, God." Otherwise nobody cares. Say about 1945, so in front of my house there was an old man. So as neighbor, we had very good talks always. So as soon as I say, "Bhagavān," he will be angry. "God." So one day he said, "Why you always say Bhagavān, God?" Just see, an old man and still he is such a rascal. He did not like. That is called demonism. Even the father of Prahlāda Mahārāja, that five years old boy, he was doing nothing harm, simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa—he became angry: "No, no." So big enemy that he wanted to kill him. This is demoniac. Some bad smell?
Haṁsadūta: I don't know. (break)
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette-comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect: "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that "He's my enemy." That... The etiquette according to Vedic civilization: gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum... That was... Just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with you..." (Break) Unless one of the kings died... (Break) ...a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have... Where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still, they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha. (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha. Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying.
Prabhupāda: The future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter) So if you are talking of future, but where is the history... In the history the future is past. This is common sense. So therefore they have discovered this nonsense ad infinitum that future will never come. And still, they will set aside the business to some future and take the credit. Yes. "In future we shall be able to do it." And that future will never come. And still, they will take the credit. (laughter) Just see. Therefore mūḍha. This is the explanation of mūḍha. It is just like somebody offered you a post-dated check, and then he wants to clear his debt. Suppose I am debtor by hundreds of dollars to you. I give you a post-dated check, and still I say, "Now I am clear of your debt." And that post-dated check will never be paid. This is their theory. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ duṣkṛtino narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). (pause) The government has recognized us as bona fide religious sect.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Gurudāsa: It is also spicy.
Rāmeśvara: It's very convenient for him to print here because he has all the credit from BBT, so the printers immediately want to do business with him.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Yes, businessman never invests his own money. He does business with others' money. That is business. Just like I am doing. (laughter) I brought only forty rupees. That was also not spent. (laughter)
Rāmeśvara: This is our Golden Avatar studio where they record... They change your lectures into master tapes which can then be duplicated at high speed, and this is a complete library of all of your lectures.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Rāmeśvara: We keep it very carefully. It's very important. They are cataloging it according to title of book, so if someone wants to see what your Divine Grace has lectured on Bhagavad-gītā, they have one section on Bhagavad-gītā, and on Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, First Canto...
Prabhupāda: They have got index book.
Prabhupāda: The others? That is the distinction between matter and spirit. Just like this microphone, it is combination of earth, water, air, fire, like that. But the living being, he has utilized, he has combined this matter into this microphone. Is that admitted? Now, exactly like the microphone, the combination of matter and done by some living entity, similarly, the whole cosmic manifestation is combination of matter, and there is one living being or the Supreme Being who has combined them, and it is working. Is that admitted? So that is the difference between limited and unlimited, that I, you are living being... We can also create something like this microphone or this big aeroplane. We have created. That is limited. But there is another one who has created innumerable planets and that is floating in the air. Is it not? We are taking credit of becoming big scientist by creating one airship, 747, five hundred passengers carrying. How many we have created? Maybe hundred, two hundred. But there are millions and trillions of planets floating in the same way in the air, and those planets containing so many big, big mountains, ocean, and they are floating in the air. We can create limited things, but He can create unlimited things. Therefore we have got our limited brain, and He has got unlimited brain. Is that correct?
Rūpānuga: Kṛṣṇa says, "Take it from Me."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And if he wants to make research, that means he is a rascal number one. If you want to make research, then search out what is the original brain, not the process. Process is already going on. What is the use of your research, nonsense? Suppose by chemical combination, if you produce one life... You will never be able. But still, if you think that you will be able or you become able, then what is credit to you? Without your help there, millions and millions of life are being manufactured, without your help. Then what is your credit?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imitating a barking dog.
Prabhupāda: That's it. So millions of dogs are barking, and one man has learned how to bark like dog, and people will go to see him by purchasing ticket. This is their foolishness. Suppose if you somehow or other become able to produce life from chemical, then what is your credit? It is like barking dog. Millions of dog are barking. Now you have learned how to bark like dog. So what is your credit? It may be for the rascal fools that you are scientist, but we are not so rascal.
Rūpānuga: They will clap. The fools will clap.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. "How nice barking. Oh, how he has learned to bark." Just see. We are not so fools. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍo catura: "The first-class intelligent man is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious." Sei baḍo catura. All rascals. Kṛṣṇa said, na māṁ duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ. "Oh? Also very scientist?" māyayāpahṛta-jñānā: "They have no knowledge, all rascals." Kṛṣṇa says. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā, that he is not thinking, that "Suppose I can produce life by chemical combination, then what is my credit? The life is already there. It is going on very nicely." What do you think, Balavanta? If the things are going on nicely, then where is my credit? Either you say, "by chance," or "by God's arrangement," "by nature," but things are going on nicely. So it is same thing, to learn how to bark, that's all. Barking is going on, but he wants to take credit by learning how to bark. That's all.
Prabhupāda: That's all. That he cannot, and that is his foolishness. Therefore we say that you are cheating. Things are already there, going on. What is your credit?
Rūpānuga: The scientists are trying to be the hero. Kṛṣṇa is the hero. He has done everything first, and the scientist wants to be the hero.
Prabhupāda: So you have to present like this, that "What is the credit? Suppose by chemical composition you can manufacture one ant. That is not possible. Be assured you will never be able. That we are assured. But even if you are able, then what is your credit? The credit is the man has learned how to bark like a dog. That's all, this much credit."
Prabhupāda: All fools and rascal, mūḍhā. That is our test. Anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a mūḍhā. Bas. We have got the test tube, this Bhagavad-gītā, na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). So as soon as we see here is a man, if he has not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, "All right, you are mūḍhā." That's all. We haven't got to test him. Test tube is already there. So you tell these mūḍhas that "Why you are wasting so much time and money to find out how to manufacture life? Then what are these life? How they have come? That is not a problem, that without your creation of life the world will go to hell. It is already there." What do they say? "Why they are trying to create life?" What is their answer? What they will get it? The things are already there. Suppose there are so many motorcars, and if I manufacture one motorcar, so is there any great credit for me? The motorcars are already there. When there was no car, motorcar, the first man who manufactured, he had some credit. Who manufactured? The Daimler or somebody else? So he had some credit, "Yes, you have done something, horseless carriage. People will get something convenience. That's all right." But when there are thousands and millions of motorcars and creating accident only, and still, if I manufacture motorcar, what is my credit? What is my credit?
Prabhupāda: So how we can respect the demons? We cannot.
Rūpānuga: No. We'll not give them any credit.
Prabhupāda: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, "You will never be able." You can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure," because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jāyate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā's assertion, na jāyate na mriyate. "Neither it is created; neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Kṛṣṇa speaks. That's all, finished.
Prabhupāda: That's it. (says something in Hindi regarding daṇḍavat) (chuckles) That is very good. That is our process. Sāṅkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. The Vaiṣṇavas, they chanted with a numerical strength, sāṅkhya-pūrvaka. Sāṅkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ. Nāma means chanting of the holy name. Gana means also prayer. And also daṇḍavat. Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, he took vow that "So many times I will offer daṇḍavat." So these things are... If this child simply offers daṇḍavat to the Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu, so it will not go in vain. Even if he does not know any śāstra, simply offers obeisances, that will also be taken into credit. It is so nice thing. Sāṅkhya-pūrvaka-nāma-gana-natibhiḥ kālāvasāni-kṛtau. So therefore Deity worship is recommended. So if anyone does not know anything, if he simply comes and offers obeisances, that is also nice. Therefore Deity worship is important for the common man. Even if he does not know anything, if he simply comes and offer obeisances, if he little dances with kīrtana, everything will be taken into credit. Then one day he will become a devotee. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). The jñānavān, the so-called jñānavān they do not care for the Deity-puffed up.
Guest: Our aim of life should be the realization of God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because at the present moment we are part and parcel. Just like a son, he has got the symptoms of his father, but he does not know who is his father. He does not know who is his father. There is a Hindi proverb, bap ka beta sipaika gora kusnaita tora tola: "The son inherits the quality of the father, but if he does not know who is his father, then what is his position?" That is going on. The scientist, he is trying to create something, but he does not know the supreme creator. Do you follow? Now the scientists are trying to create living being in the laboratory. But he does not enquire that who has already created so many millions of living entities? He is trying to create a living entity in laboratory. Suppose he creates one living entity. Then what credit is there for him? But he is spending lakhs and crores of rupees.
Prabhupāda: Scientists' role, not only scientists, scientists, philosopher, politician—everyone should endeavor that "Wherefrom we got these propensities? Where is the origin?" That is described in the Vedānta-sūtra: athāto brahma jijñāsā. I am a scientist. I am thinking of myself very great man, but I do not think that "Who is that great scientist under whose order the sun, moon, the sea, ocean, everything is working very properly?" I am thinking of that water is created by hydrogen, oxygen, but I do not inquire, "Wherefrom such hugh quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came, so that there is big oceans and seas, water?" That I don't enquire. So I am so foolish scientist. I am theorizing. I am theorizing that life has come from matter, chemical composition, but as soon as I ask that "I give you the chemical. You create," he says, "That I cannot do." This is going on. But our business is, we Kṛṣṇa conscious, that we see that you scientists, you are trying to create a living being, but I glorify the Supreme who has already created millions and millions of living beings. I give you credit that... I cannot give you credit unless you create. But still, as you are thinking that you will be able in future, that's good... But what credit you will have? If I have got millions of rupees, and if you create ten rupees, then what is your credit? Even if you create? You cannot do it. You will never be able to create life. That's a fact. That we know. But even if you are able to create, then what credit you, do you get. This is... Already there are millions and trillions of life. Why you are so proud that "We are going to create in the laboratory, life." Why this false prestige?
Guest: It is possible?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Even if it is not possible, but you have to accept there is a supreme scientist. If you cannot see Him, that is your disqualification. That is your disqualification. But you have to admit that there is a supreme scientist. If you say that hydrogen and oxygen mixed together makes water, that's all right. But who has created this big sea and ocean? Wherefrom the hydrogen, oxygen came? Who supplied? That is intelligence. Simply theoretical I know, but I cannot say who has created this big, vast mass of water by mixing hydrogen, oxygen. Wherefrom such huge quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came? Our point of view, that you scientists, you say that hydrogen, oxygen creates water, and here we see that somebody has created, but not somebody will know who is that body, how great He is. And that is our credit. If you want little credit by experimenting, hydrogen, oxygen mixed together, then how much credit should be given who has created the vast Atlantic Ocean, not only one, millions! Why don't you give credit?
Guest: You should give.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our point.
Guest: But are you not giving credit?
Prabhupāda: No, nobody is giving. They are denying. Especially these so-called scientists, they are denying the existence of God.
Prabhupāda: Now, so far the... Just like in Germany. They unnecessarily take the money while there is creditor, printer. There was no need of keeping money. Go on paying them. That was my policy. I instructed Karandhara that whenever there is collection, go to pay. That arrangement I made with Dai Nippon, that "I shall go on paying. You don't ask me." So he never asked me. You know that.
Jayatīrtha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As soon as there is collection, I paid him: "And you go on printing these books." This should be the policy.
Atreya Ṛṣi: This is very important that we understand. This is not common in the karmī world, that Śrīla Prabhupāda does not like credit or playing with money and saving it or something... You have a debt; you pay it; you don't create debt. Everything is just very honest and very flowing. This I have to learn myself because this is not the way the business world is, although I do a lot of business. And we all have to see that this policy is followed.
Prabhupāda: This complaint from the members is not at all good. If somebody becomes envious, he can file a suit that "These men have collected money from me, eh, but not supplied books."
Pañcadraviḍa: Whether it's true or not, somebody was claiming to me that the scientists are creating primitive forms of life like enzymes and things like this because enzymes show... Enzymes are produced by life. They show certain living tendencies. The scientists claim they are able to create enzymes.
Prabhupāda: So what is the credit? The enzymes are being naturally created, and the soul is there. So what is his credit? The arrangement is already there automatically, the secretion between the man and the woman, and they mix together, emulsified, and the situation is created, and the soul comes there. The soul is injected through the semina of the man. It is already arranged. So what is your credit?
Pañcadraviḍa: Well, they say the credit is that "We are doing these things in the laboratory without the presence of the soul. They are not being produced by any living organism."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pañcadraviḍa: "They are not being produced by any living organism."
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your, your foolishness. Living organism is there. Just like we find something... The same argument, vṛścika-tāṇḍula-nyāya: "Vṛścika, the scorpion, is coming out of the heaps of rice." That... It does not mean the rice is produced the scorpion. That is foolishness. Rice, the heaps of rice, it does not create any scorpion. We have to get down here?
Tamal-kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Cats and dogs have also responsible for the family. What is credit for him?
Devotee: Well, what actually is responsibility?
Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog also allows the nipple to be sucked by the cubs. That is family maintenance. So what credit do you get by family maintenance? Why do you specially claim any benefit by maintain...? That is being done by the cats and dogs. Do you think that the animals do not take care of their children? Then if you take, then what is the difference between him and yourself? You are also the cats and dogs. Your main business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. If you forget that—you remain cats and dogs—then you'll become again cats and dogs. Punar muṣiko bhava: "Again become a mouse." The mouse was given the chance to elevate gradually to a tiger, and when he became tiger, he wanted to devour the saintly person. And he said, "All right, again you become mouse." That is also... You are given the chance of self-realization. If you do not do it, then again become cats and dogs, maintain your family.
Prabhupāda: ...take the credit. And what is your credit? It is already there for millions of years. Why you are anxious to produce this? Without your help it is being produced. So why you spending our hard-earned money and cheating us? You are cheater. You should be punished. These things are already going on. For you there is no scarcity of life. Then why you are spending our tax to show your talent? What is your talent? You are simply cheating us—"We shall do it..." You do or do not, the things are already there. Why you are taking our money to make research? You are cheating us. You should be punished. You will be punished. Even the state does not punish, you'll be punished by the Supreme Lord because you are cheating. So you can cheat us, but you cannot cheat God. Regular punishment will be there. Millions of years it has been going on, and I want to tell (?) you, just tell (?) you (indistinct). The same example-millions of dogs are barking, and this man has learned how to bark. He is selling tickets. You see? You are driving away barking dog, and because this rascal has learned how to bark, you have to pay for it. What do you say?
Yaśodānandana: So they would say, "Well, we do not claim any credit, but, similarly, you cannot give God credit, because it is going on as a biochemical reaction."
Prabhupāda: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child. That's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I... I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you.
Yaśodānandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't...
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is producing, either or God or somebody, or somebody is doing that. I must see, (indistinct) ...not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore he should get the credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody... Just like you are somebody, you are trying to take all the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So he should get the credit.
Yaśodānandana: Their objection is to "he."
Prabhupāda: But why you are "he"?
Yaśodānandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.
Prabhupāda: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.
Prabhupāda: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.
Prabhupāda: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy—you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśodānandana: They will argue...
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1."
Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.
Prabhupāda: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa, told that He lived for 125 years and Kṛṣṇa is still living.
Yaśodānandana: Jesus Christ only lived for 36 years.
Prabhupāda: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point, to live long is a great credit, there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is said yes they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing. "Waa, waa, waa, waa." It is breathing in the (indistinct) and it is (indistinct), the vastra. It is breathing (indistinct). Here they are living but you don't see they have any sex enjoyment (indistinct). The dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And they give credit to whom?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art.
Prabhupāda: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Kṛṣṇa has described you mūḍhās, and you have taken (indistinct) are mūḍhās. (indistinct) ...to have to take credit in so many way that our conclusion is following the footsteps of Kṛṣṇa. You are all mūḍhās.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa but we can also express God through our musical talent. (break)
Prabhupāda: You decorate God so nicely (indistinct) ...art painting, everything. They, putting art, so many thing, (indistinct). There's no scarcity of art painting.
Prabhupāda: That is our credit. We have got one song and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs but you attract yourself only. That...
Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear.
Prabhupāda: But who takes it seriously?
Devotee: They all do.
Prabhupāda: They stay here and go away. That's all... Temporary, temporary.
Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always, where is that song you have got? You have got (indistinct) ...he has to give new record. Nobody cares for the old record. (indistinct) ...then his business will stop. If you say that "I have given one song, that's all." (everybody laughs) Who'll care for it? That is our credit.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not select few. They're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning (indistinct) ...I was chanting (indistinct). And now that it is not select few and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going back to science again...
Prabhupāda: Going back... Where is science? Going back to hell again. Say "going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because that is not science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen...
Prabhupāda: Not only now, I've said long, long years ago. That this is all childish.
Prabhupāda: That's alright. The drum can be purchased again, but he should be given credit because he is inquisitive. You can purchase another drum, it doesn't matter, but he gets the credit because he is inquisitive.
Gaṇeśa: What about the scientists, Śrīla Prabhupāda? They are very inquisitive, they are trying to find out the cause of the material world.
Prabhupāda: That credit we give them. Just like this child. But the childishness is this, that when they are given correct information, they do not take it. (indistinct) If we say to the material scientists that "You are searching after this, here it is, Kṛṣṇa, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo (BG 10.8), I am the original source of everything." they will not accept. That is their foolishness.
Gaṇeśa: They are very inquisitive, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That credit is already given, but you are inquisitive for a certain thing, if the thing is offered, if you do not accept then you become foolish. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), Vāsudeva, he'll come to that point, that Kṛṣṇa is everything, but when you inform him before that here is the thing, he will not take. That is the foolishness.
Amogha: But at least what we know now is more true than what we knew before. And if we keep trying we'll know more.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means you are always in ignorance. This means that you are always in ignorance. And Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says the same thing I am speaking to you again. That means we are not in ignorance. We may forget something, but the truth is always the same. But you are making, manufacturing, discovering truth. That means you do not know what is truth. You should answer like that. That you are all rascals. You do not know what is truth; therefore you are discovering truth. Truth is never discovered. It is already there. But you do not know what is that truth. That is credit that you are making advance towards truth, but you do not know what is truth. That is a fact. Is it clear? Making discoveries means you do not know what is truth. But it is good credit for you that you are trying to advance. That we agree.
Prabhupāda: Just see the position. The bank is refusing loan to the municipal corporation, city corporation. They have no credit.
Śrutakīrti: So that means the city will increase their taxes on the public.
Prabhupāda: But if the public is moving from the city, where is the source of taxation?
Paramahaṁsa: That's the big problem. All the rich people are leaving because they're getting so much tax and so many other problems. And big business also is leaving.
Prabhupāda: Where they are leaving?
Paramahaṁsa: Just to the suburbs, outside the city.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Justin Murphy: I suppose it's very easy to understand and to credit that so many people will be thinking maybe this way because that's part of the basis of being selfish, and, after all, a lot of people, particularly, I would imagine, a lot of Australians, are basically selfish. They are interested far more in what they can get and do for themselves not necessarily by working hard, by striving or by reading or by thinking or by studying. They, they... The old saying...
Prabhupāda: The human life is meant for acquiring knowledge, real knowledge.
Justin Murphy: But so many people don't see it that way.
Prabhupāda: At least one class of men must be thoroughly conversant, thoroughly aware of the things as they are. They are called brāhmaṇas. Therefore the society should be divided into four classes. The first-class men, who have got full knowledge of life and the problems of life... That there should be, the first-class men. They may be very few; it doesn't matter. Ideal class. People will learn by their behavior, by their character, by their knowledge. So must be there. Then the next class would be the administrators. They would be advised by the first-class men, and they would administer the state. And the third-class men, they should produce food, enough food for the whole population. And the fourth-class men would assist these three higher class, first class, second class and third class. This is the arrangement, nature's arrangement. There are first-class men; there are second-class men; there are third-class men; there are fourth-class men. But if you produce simply fourth-class men, there cannot be any adjustment.
Prabhupāda: Therefore the philosophy is acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable one and different simultaneously. One in quality, but different in quantity. God's power... I have got some creative power, and God has got creative power. So the creative power is there. But God has created millions of the planets that floating in the air and we have created a 747 airplane, we want to take more credit than God. That is our foolishness.
Jesuit: Oh, I say that is man's sin, if you like, is that he prides himself on his achievements.
Prabhupāda: That is false pride. The scientist, the modern scientists, they are taking false pride that there is no need of God, we are now creating...
Jesuit: Some of them are, not all...
Prabhupāda: Some of the fools, not all fools, but some of the fools declaring themselves as scientists, "There is no God." We can (indistinct).
Jesuit: Let me see if I can understand what you mean by God.
Prabhupāda: God means all-powerful, the great. You say also, "The great."
Devotee (4): It requires a lot of strength to bathe in the sea. You're being tossed very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...so many seeds are there? And as many seeds, as many trees are there. And each fruit, thousands of fruits there, and millions of seeds are there, and millions of trees are there. Where is that scientist, put into that small packet millions of trees like that? Millions of big trees are within this packet. Where is that scientist? Put in a packet, you take, and millions of trees you grow? And without any expenditure, they are present there. If you like, you can take. What the scientists will answer? "Yes, in future we shall do." In future you will do. That's all right. But why don't you give credit who has done already? You are taking credit by post-dated check, and one is actually paying cash, he has no credit. You are giving a false check, post-dated, and you want to take credit. And one who is paying cash immediately, he has no credit. Just see how foolish they are.
Devotee (4): They cannot even appreciate something like that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They say, "Don't talk of God." That is their philosophy. (Gets into car) Post-dated check, they want all credit, and one who is paying cash, he has no credit.
Gurukṛpa: "Well, we can't see Him, so we can't believe it. We can't see who has done it."
Prabhupāda: No, you cannot see that the tree, wherefrom this tree has come. From the seed: you cannot see it? You are so blind? Why don't you see? Wherefrom this big tree has come? And such millions of big trees are on the floor. You cannot see it? Then you are blind.
Paramahaṁsa: It comes from that little seed.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone knows that.
Prabhupāda: You are less than the nature, that you have to accept. Nature has already done. So either you say "nature" or "God," doesn't matter. But you are not bigger. You cannot take the credit.
Paramahaṁsa: No, we are sons of nature, so nature is greater than us.
Prabhupāda: "Sons of nature," that's all right. But why do you take credit, why do you want to take credit more than nature?
Paramahaṁsa: But we'd just like to understand how to use nature, how to work with nature.
Gurukṛpa: No, it says, if you follow the Bible, it says that there was a... God created...
Prabhupāda: They don't follow anything. They don't follow their own... (laughs) Whims, that's all. If you follow Bible, what do the Bible says? Bible says about God. They don't believe in God.
Ambarīṣa: They're going to meet in space and float around in space.
Prabhupāda: That is birds are doing also. What is the credit?
Paramahaṁsa: They are thinking that "What is the use of going to any other planet, because there is no life on the other planets."
Prabhupāda: Why no life?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they have photographs and things.
Prabhupāda: Photograph, what is this nonsense photograph? How long it can go up?
Ambarīṣa: They're taken from hundreds of miles up in space, and then they say there is no life.
Prabhupāda: What is hundreds of miles? It is, er, forty billion, what is that?
Paramahaṁsa: Four billion.
Prabhupāda: They can do it—that is credit. But what is this credit, that people are dying and you discover atom bomb to accelerate death very quickly? If they are thinking like that, then sanity is coming. At least, they are thinking like that, that "Why death should not be stopped?" That will be credit if they can do so, but at least this question, it comes. Then they become human being, not dogs. And so long this question does not come, they are cats and dogs. This is athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is the inquiry. Sanātana Gosvāmī when he approached Caitanya Mahāprabhu he first questioned this, ke āmi, keno more jape tāpa-traya: "I was minister. That's all right. But I do not know why I shall accept death. Therefore I have come to You." This is minister, intelligence, that "People praise me, I am minister, I am very learned scholar, but I do not know why I am under the tribulations of three-fold miseries, and what is my position." Ke āmi, keno more jape tapa-traya: "Who I am? I don't want all these things, why they are troubling me?" Grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tai satya kori mani: "These fools and rascals, they call me, I am very learned scholar, and I also accept it, but I do not know why I am suffering." This is Sanātana Gosvāmī's question. So what they are doing? They are making research?
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... (break) Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being.
Prabhupāda: Why they are anxious to know how the world was created? It is already created. What is your credit? (break) ...and simply bluffing people, that's all. (break) It is already there. The nice creation is already there.
Dr. Judah: Accept it as it is.
Dharmādhyakṣa: And be joyful. But they want to try to imitate the creation.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. "Where angels dare not, foolish rush in. Where angels dare not, fools rush in." So big, big, giant, saintly persons, they simply admired, and they are going to understand it. What is that? And they can create, like that? They cannot create even an ant, a small ant, and they are going to create, imitate the creation of God. Just see. And we have to believe such fools. (laughter) This is our misfortune.
Prabhupāda: They have simply calculated, "Now today the bank balance is now three millions dollars, and tomorrow it will be four million." Simply, they say. Idaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. And everyone is proud, "Who is greater than me? Who can understand more than me? I am very great man." Āḍhyo mām abhi... What is that? Āḍhyo mām, hmm? "I am the richest man. I am the most aristocratic. I have killed so many enemies. Now I shall kill that enemy." Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is their position. The rascal does not know whether he is going to be a dog next life, and if he is going to, he says, "Oh, what is the wrong? I can become dog." This is the position. (break) ...āhur anīśvaram. (break) ...trying to go to the planet, this planet, that planet. Rascal, say... They did not recognize, "Who has made this planet, where I am going?" They are taking credit by going there, but he is not giving any credit to the person or the agent who has made it. Just see. What do you think? That, "I am going there, but who has made it? Who is that person?" "No, it has come out... There was a chunk, and it became plant and then so on." This is their knowledge. And people are accepting, "Oh, great scientist. There was a chunk." Just see. Why don't you get yourself a chunk and it burst into big, big planet? (laughter) Such rascals are governing the whole human society.
Prabhupāda: Now there's a warrant for his arrest. What he can do? And he is God? God is so cheap and you have accepted him as God? What is this nonsense? But we give you credit, that you are searching after God. That is... So try to understand by education. What is this nonsense, blindly accepting some rascal as God? Everyone knows God is great. Is he great? Then why he is punished by the court? This is the park?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: You said in your lecture the other day in Los Angeles that when that happens that many people are killed in one place, it means that it's arranged by the Supreme. Just like Kurukṣetra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated by Kṛṣṇa, that "You are thinking very patriotically that you will not kill. But it is already settled. They must be killed here. I have brought them. You kill or not kill, they will be killed. That is My plan. If you want, you take credit that you have killed." This is same arrangement. It is prearranged. War means it is bringing all the animals together and kill them, finish. And that is happening every few years after years. The Napoleon is coming for killing, and Hitler is coming for killing. Sometimes Nelson is coming for killing. But here in India the God comes for killing. Lord Rāmacandra came for killing the Rāvaṇas and Kṛṣṇa came for killing the Kauravas.
Prabhupāda: If I am representative of Kṛṣṇa, then I must be the most powerful. Kṛṣṇa has got..., all omnipotent. (laughs) Most powerful, the most my Godbrothers. That is my credit. They are thinking like that, "This man became most powerful than all of us. (Still laughing) He was a gṛhastha." They used to say all the gṛhasthas, paca-gṛhastha. Paca means decomposed. What Bon Mahārāja is doing now?
Satsvarūpa: I don't know up to date. I just know a few weeks ago he was in Canada.
Brahmānanda: When our devotees go to see a professor after Bon Mahārāja has spoken with him, the professors don't want to take our books. They make complaints that our books are too sectarian, they're not scholarly, they're not..., in this way.
Prabhupāda: He is making that poison.
Prabhupāda: Darwin has taken from here, and he has tried to explain in a hodgepodge way so that he may get the credit, that's all.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: The plants have more consciousness, manifest consciousness, than aquatics?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: That plants and grass, they are more conscious than aquatics.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also mentioned in the Bhāgavata, about different animals, how they are conscious, developed.
Brahmānanda: In the First Canto?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dharmasya hy āpavargyasya nārtho 'rthāyopakalpate. The first thing is that people become religious. Just like in your Christian religion they go to the church to get some material profit. "Oh God, give us our daily bread." This is material profit. Similarly, Hindus or Muslims, they become religious, dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), the material activities. Those who are actually advanced... Those who are not even human beings, their philosophy is different. Those who are human beings, their dharma, religion. Then artha, economic development, and then kāma, sense gratification, and then mokṣa, liberation. These four things are taken as general activities. So Bhāgavata says your dharma... Religious principle means the ultimate goal is how to become liberated, not artha. Artha means economic development. So then question may be if you do not, if we are not economically developed then how we shall live? The Bhāgavata says that you can make economic development as far as it maintains your body and soul together. Not that making whole life economic development and real purpose of life forget. This is foolishness. So dharma, artha. Dharma means, religious advancement means how to get out of this material condition. Not that I go to temple and chant, "God, give me millions of dollars, and this, and that." This is not possible. It is good that one has gone to God to ask some help, that much credit is there. You have found out the verse?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Let them produce one seed like that. Sow it and a big tree will come out. Where is that scientist? Millions of living beings are coming out. You are trying to kill them, and they are trying to manufacture living being in the laboratory. And take credit. Where is the credit to you? Already millions and trillions are daily coming. Befooling men. They are fools and befooling men, that's all. This is their business.
Prabhupāda: Yes, demonstrate. You make in the laboratory that things are moving by this combination. Otherwise it is useless. Therefore two things must be there: observation and experiment, practical and theoretical. Theoretical—something is there who is moving. Now you make it practical to see that this combination... Just like they say chemical combination. Now take the chemicals and make experiment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, the thing is that they are now in the test tube they are making experiment, and they are putting a certain set of chemicals together and maybe some soul takes shelter of those chemicals. But the scientists say that they get the credit for it. They don't say that the soul has entered. They say, "No, we have put different elements together, and now some..."
Prabhupāda: No.
Bahulāśva: They have never done that successfully.
Prabhupāda: And even they are successful, what is credit? So many living entities are coming every minute, and if after thousand years, they can create one ant, so what is the credit? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Therefore you accept that you are small. You are not the great. God is great; you are small. So claim a small credit, don't claim as good as God. That is your foolishness. Because we are part and parcel of God, we have got capacity to do part and parcel, not the whole. So remain small, don't try to become big. Remain servant of God. Don't try to become God, that is foolishness. That is our philosophy. Tṛṇād api sunīcena taror api sahiṣṇunā. Remain humble and meek. You will understand God. (end)
Prabhupāda: Who supplied. That is the difference. He is trying to take credit by mixing these vegetable and spices and salt and ghee, and he is expert in preparing a very nice, palatable... But we say that "Where you got the vegetables? Where you got the spices? Where you got the ghee?" And they are not concerned about that.
Jayādvaita: They don't want to tell.
Prabhupāda: They do not know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Less intelligent.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is yato va imāni bhūtāni jāyante: The original source of all these things.
Prabhupāda: Oh, therefore there is no need of God. I supply you everything and you say, "There is no need of you." It is very good intelligence. Ungrateful. The intelligence is ungrateful. So such men should not be given any credit, ungrateful.
Rādhā-vallabha: They also say that "At least our method proves out with facts, whereas your method, there is no facts. Simply you have some faith. So better that at least we know the facts and not know the source."
Prabhupāda: We know (?) fact. We accept this earth, water, air, fire, everything. Bhūmir āpo...
Rādhā-vallabha: So we can see this is here.
Prabhupāda: So where..? Our position is: "Wherefrom it came?"
Rādhā-vallabha: Well, we have to test this out scientifically. We can't just accept.
Prabhupāda: No. You say that the water is composition of hydrogen and oxygen. Wherefrom you got this so much hydrogen, oxygen, the Pacific Ocean? There is so much water needed in so many places. Why don't you take chemical and pour water? Why you talk nonsense?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's all. (laughter) That we can produce while I pass urine. (laughter) So you can create little urine, but that we do automatically. At least I do. Every hour I pass urine. So your credit is urine-maker. (laughter)
Rādhā-vallabha: We have developed a method of seeding clouds. We send airplanes into the clouds and spread chemicals, and then rain comes. So what need is there for...
Brahmānanda: Sometimes, not all the time.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Brahmānanda: Sometimes they're able to...
Rāmeśvara: Agitate the cloud to produce rain.
Hṛdayānanda: And but now they find out it's causing worse effects, so they have to stop that also.
Prabhupāda: ...no need of creating water. You have no such intelligence. Just like the Arabian desert is there; Arabian Sea is there. Why don't you utilize this water? Instead of bluffing others that "We can create water," why don't you use this water and make the desert fertile? (break) ...create a little water in the test tube, so you take that credit. Why you want to take the credit of creating a Pacific Ocean? That is our protest. You are able to create one ounce of water in the test tube. That's all right, miracle done. But we say that one who has created the Pacific Ocean, how much credit he will be given. That is our proposal. You take test tube credit, but you must give Pacific credit to God. That is wanted. But creating test tube water, you want to take the Pacific credit. Is that very nice proposal? (break) ...spoken by one scientist in our Delhi meeting. Who were present in the Delhi meeting?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was.
Prabhupāda: That scientist's name?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dr. Atmaram.
Prabhupāda: Dr. Atmaram, that "We have simply learned how to bark like dog, but we don't care so many dogs are already barking." He admitted that if a man learns how to bark, people will purchase ticket and see him, and so many thousands of dogs, dog, are barking—nobody cares. This is scientist. You learn how to bark, imitate the dog, and you become important man. You have create one third fruit by mixing peach and plum, and one who is creating millions and trillions of fruits that is lying on the floor—nobody cares for that—he has no credit. These rascals wants credit for this most insignificant...
Satsvarūpa: They say their barking is an improvement on the original dog.
Prabhupāda: To another dog appreciates like that. (laughter)
Satsvarūpa: Purport. "Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: So this is false ego, to think of oneself as free. You are professor of economics?
Mr. Surface: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And all the oceans? Here is the highway, and there is the ocean. Which is important? (laughter) You might have created these highways, but another engineer has created that ocean, side by side. So who will get the greater credit?
Devotee (4): They say that there's a limited amount of resources here on this planet, that unless we use these resources wisely, then they will all be used up. They say that there's very limited amounts, so therefore they must be careful.
Prabhupāda: But this... Who supplied the resources of this ocean? They say that water is combination of hydrogen and oxygen, so wherefrom this hydrogen-oxygen supply came?
Devotee (4): There is another group. They call themselves Zero Population Growth. So their idea is that there's too many people on this planet. So therefore either they want... What they want to do is that they want to increase the number of deaths...
Prabhupāda: Death.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Exactly what Kṛṣṇa has said. Our mission... (Bengali) Yāre dekha, tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). Bas. If you speak what Kṛṣṇa has instructed, you become guru. But if you make your own concoction, own invention, then... (Bengali) I don't speak any nonsense except the instruction given in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is my credit. That's all. People say that I have done wonderful, but I do not know any magic. The wonderful thing I have done is that I don't speak any nonsense thing.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Sometimes this side, sometimes that side. Near the head. (about fan?)
Member: I not praising of Swamiji, I think no, so many saints are in India, so many great ṛṣis are there. Nobody were able to propagate or bring this consciousness among the people of the worlds as you did. It is a great credit to India. That is what I feel personally.
Prabhupāda: Do you think like that?
Member: Yes, I feel. In the heart of hearts I feel like that. I am very happy to see you and have your blessings. And I think that the whole world will be blessed or be benefited by your presence. I think we must take opportunity of utilizing your service and get benefit. That is what I feel.
Prabhupāda: So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that every Indian should do like that. I am only one Indian. If I can do as, according to your estimate, so much, so if every Indian does like that.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has given me. So depend on Kṛṣṇa. He says, teṣāṁ nityābhiyuktānāṁ yoga-kṣemam: "One who is engaged in My service, all that he wants, I supply." He says. See practically. Whatever we wanted, it is coming. It is coming not for my credit or another, anyone credit. It is all Kṛṣṇa's credit. He is giving. As soon as He sees that "They are working for Me," He'll supply everything, whatever you need. Simply we must be sincere and spend it very cautiously, not squandering the money. Then He will give us everything. There is no need of surma(?)-making. I say it is nonsense that by surma-making I will be happy. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovidaḥ. Only for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness we should work. Then everything will come, whatever we want. That is called anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ (Brs. 1.1.11), without desiring for anything else. (break) "...in a rented house, there was no trouble. And as soon as this Devidatta gave us this marble palace, then there was competition who will occupy which room. In this way dissension began. So I am desiring that this dissension will increase and there will be fire. So to save this fire, I wish to get out all the marbles from this house and sell it and publish some books. That will remain." He said to me. Then I understood that he is giving more stress on books. "Sell the marbles and publish book instead of creating dissension amongst ourself." So, strictly, anyone occupies this guest room, he must pay. (end)
Prabhupāda: Just like one man becomes insolvent, loses everything. So he said that "I had no money. Therefore I become insolvent." But that is not the fact. He could not manage; therefore there was scarcity of money and he became failure. So that is effect. On account of his bad management, he came to a position that he could not pay to his creditor, and his business is failure. So that insolvency is not the cause. It is the effect.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhīṣma was able to remain in his body even on a bed of arrows.
Prabhupāda: So when you are going to die, these are the... On account of imminent death, these are the effects.
Harikeśa: But that means that the body breaks down.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: The body breaks down.
Prabhupāda: At a certain period it will break.
Prabhupāda: Therefore this process is recommended. Caitanya Mahāprabhu argued with Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī, not with ordinary public. Ordinary public—"Go on chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa and dancing." Never argued, neither He discussed Bhāgavatam. For ordinary public-four hours' kīrtana, chanting and dancing, bas. And then give them sufficient prasādam: "Take prasāda." This process... Because unless he has got little śraddhā, he will simply put some false argument and waste your time. Not in the beginning. Mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. First of all create him a devotee a little. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa-harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21)—only. Because this is Kali-yuga, people are so fallen, so downtrodden, so rascal, cats and dogs. It is very difficult. But this process—chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, giving them chance to hear it and take prasādam—that will cure. And that is easily accepted by anyone. It doesn't matter what he is. Anyone will accept. To chant and dance and take prasādam—no one will disagree. So this is the process. When they come to the temple... Just like these boys. You are offering obeisances; they are also offering. But that will go to their credit, to become bhakta. This process should be adopted. Not in the beginning, but in the beginning give them prasādam, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. And try to sell some book. You pay something. That means he is giving some service, the hard-earned money. That will also go to his credit. And then, when he'll concerned that "I have paid for it. Let me see what this nonsense has written. All right. Read." And that will also convince him. This is the way. He'll keep this body, book, and show some friend, so the infection will go on.
Prabhupāda: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Śiva and what is Viṣṇu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Śiva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ. He is our spiritual master. He is Vaiṣṇava. Why not offer first respect to him? But if you take Lord Śiva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Śiva is Vaiṣṇava. He is the greatest devotee. He is the number-one demigod, and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that.
Devotee (2): They know how to destroy everything, but they can't create anything nice.
Prabhupāda: No question of creating. They have destroyed themselves. Save yourself from destruction. Then you talk of destruction. You destroy. That's all right. But you will be destroyed by some other greater power. What you are going to do that? What you have done for that purpose? You destroy. That is going on, nature's way. I am killing somebody, somebody is killing me. That is nature's way. So what is your special credit? There is no credit. There is no credit. You save yourself not to be destroyed by others. "I can destroy others but nobody can destroy me"—that Hiraṇyakaśipu tried. But that is not possible. Ultimately he was destroyed. That's all.
Prabhupāda: You have to be... You will be kicked out from the house. You will not be allowed to stay here. What is this success? You will be kicked out. What is your success? You have constructed very nice house. Very good. All credit to you. But I shall kick you out. What you will do? Where is your success? Hm? It is waste of time. That is sane man's intelligence. "If I am going to be kicked out, why shall I spoil my energy in this way?" This is intelligence. But they have no intelligence even.
Prabhupāda: Yolk. You color it. Some chemical and color it. What is difficulty? Sometimes they say a man is dead because the color of the blood has changed. From red to..., it has become white. So where is the difficulty to make it red again? Do it. Change the color again. Make it red. And if you say, "No, that natural redness is required," so there are so many flowers, natural red. Why there is no life? If redness, natural redness, is the cause of life, so there are so many flowers, red flowers. Why they do not walk? If you say that the... "Besides that, the life substance is missing," that is also not correct. Life substance is there in the dead body; otherwise how worms are coming out? Life is coming out. Not one, but hundreds are coming out. How you can say the life substance is missing? The worms are coming automatically, but you take the portion of the dead body and produce worm. That you cannot do. So which way you are going to take credit as scientist? Now which way?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We can walk through there.
Harikeśa: Just like they... In Australia they created those enzymes which were moving and were the basic components of life. So then they say, "Well, we've gone so far and created these first enzymes, the initial component of life. So we'll put them together in the future." And people... That may be an argument. It's not a very good one, but they will accept. All the scientists will accept it, that they've gone so far and done that.
Prabhupāda: No, then who is the scientist who is producing so many lives? You have not met him, but actually we see what you are trying to become successful in future, it is already there. Now, who is that big scientist? Why don't you find him out? Why don't you call him and give him Nobel Prize? Why you are taking? You are rascal. What is their answer? Already things are coming. There are so many lives, so that you are killing lives, being afraid of overpopulation. So he is creating so many lives that you think of it as overpopulation, overproduction. So what is your credit if you suppose in future you create one life? What credit you are going to give him? (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...experimentation, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the benefit of this? And pay the scientists money for bluffing. You'll die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter. Why you are anxious? After all, we have to die. Just like we are in a friend's place. We have to vacate it. And if two days' advance, "All right, you can remain two days," that means I have got the proprietorship of the house? It is all nonsense. You have to die. Stop this death; then there is credit. If I become proprietor of the house, there is credit. And if I am living for four days, if they give concession, "All right, you can live two days more," is that very great benefit? I'll have to leave it. Similarly, you will have to die today or tomorrow. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: "After death" means we have got this body; we'll have to leave it. That is certain. But after leaving this body, you are not going to get another body which will die. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If they can manufacture some medicine that "You have suffered from diseases. Now you take this medicine—no more disease," then there is credit, no more disease. But there is no guarantee.
Indian man: One kind of disease.
Prabhupāda: One kind or another kind, disease is disease. Disease is disease. It is foolish for the person to think, "If I would have gotten that disease, it was better for me." This is foolish, another foolishness. Disease is disease. Disease means suffering. You have to suffer, that's all, this disease or that disease.
Prabhupāda: ...say that if he remain forward even in the front of danger, that is his first credit.
Indian woman (7): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: It was a great service. That was a great service, recognized. (break)
Devotee (8): It's a type of poem.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, so this, like sword. The tree is just like sword, and the sinful man is pushed through that tree.
Jñāna: Prabhupāda, I've heard that even in hell the people think they are enjoying. Is that right?
Prabhupāda: Where you have heard? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: "Definitive edition." That is the credit. Not "may be." No "maybe," sir. That is rascaldom.
Harikeśa: In our social science we find that God is only necessary to define the unknown. Otherwise He has no purpose.
Prabhupāda: No, our God is not unknown. Known. We know God's residence. We know God's father, God's mother, God's activities, God's friends. Everything we know. There is no "maybe."
Harikeśa: Just like in the former days when the savages saw thunderbolts...
Prabhupāda: The savage... You may be savage. We are not savage. You may be savage, but we are not savage. We are civilized.
Haṁsadūta: Marx, he studied history from a given point and then he just calculated the consequences.
Prabhupāda: No, that point is not new point. It is already stated five thousand years ago. So what credit he has got? If I say, "Now you are thirty-four years. At the end of hundred years you will die," is that discovery?
Haṁsadūta: No. But that was...
Prabhupāda: Everyone knows it. Everyone knows it.
Haṁsadūta: But for this he's got so much credit because he said this.
Prabhupāda: So he gets credit from the rascals and fools. That's all.
Harikeśa: Actually, his philosophy is not something that can be put into action, but he's simply predicting what will be.
Prabhupāda: That we can say also from our Bhāgavata. That is not a very new thing. Those who are rascal, fools, for them it is new thing, and those who are student of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is not new point.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Then why do you say nonsense! If you have not enough power there must be somebody powerful than you—you have to admit that—who has made all these things. But you are rascal you have not... You are simply, ahh, what is called? Speculating. That in future we shall be powerful. But the powerful is already there. What is your credit? More powerful-) you cannot conceive even how powerful He a scientist. Huh? Is that alright? What is your value? The already powerful is there, who has manufactured these things. And you are expecting in future you'll be powerful; therefore you are more powerful. Just see their folly. If you are powerful then make it, another imitation sun.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) And still you are proud. What is this nonsense? And supposing the chemical combination is there and is being administered in different way for different life, then who is making this arrangement? Somebody's there who is making arrangement. You cannot do that. Therefore we are inferior, He is superior. You have to accept. It is not that it is not existing. It is existing. So as you are trying to do something, somebody has already done it. Then what is your credit?
Haṁsadūta: On the one hand, they say that the creation was a chance, accident, and on the other hand, they're trying to find the law of nature. So this is a contradiction.
Prabhupāda: Just see. And the law. Just see. And law, law, nature is not giving him chance. And he's depending on chance theory. He's so unfortunate rascal that he does not get even the chance. So discuss these things in different ways and issue a small pamphlet in Russian language. Or any language. Doesn't matter.
| Page Title: | Credit (Conv. 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur, Visnu Murti |
| Created: | 22 of Sep, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=145, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 145 |