Sometimes we are asked that "Why Kṛṣṇa induced Arjuna to become violent?" So then so many so-called scholars, they criticize Kṛṣṇa, but they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is absolute. In whichever way He acts, it is the same thing. God is good. It does not mean when He fights in the Battlefield of Kurkṣetra He becomes bad. No. He's still good. That is the conception of God: absolute. He can do anything and anything. Still, He continues to be the Absolute Truth. That is Absolute Truth. There is no relative understanding, "This is good for God, this is bad for God," as (if) God has come before me to be judged by me. You cannot judge God, Kṛṣṇa. What He does... Just like Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa: sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). "I accept whatever You say in toto, without any distinction." That is acceptance of Bhagavad-gītā and Kṛṣṇa. That is the way of understanding Vedas. You cannot judge the conclusion of the Vedas. You have to accept as it is. Because we are conditioned. We have got so many defects—we are illusioned, we commit mistake, our senses are imperfect... So many defects.
Conception (Lectures, Other)
Expressions researched:
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Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
So in the animal society there is no such conception that "There is God. We have got some relationship with God," what is that relationship. This type of discussion cannot be present in the animal society. So dharma artha kāma mokṣa. Generally religious system is taken for improving social and economic condition. Artha. Artha means economy. Artha is required for sense gratification. We require economic development for our sense gratification. And when one is completely satisfied, then he can cultivate about spiritual realization, mokṣa, āpavarga.
So dharmasya āpavargyasya arthaḥ na arthāya upakalpate. So dharma is not meant for developing economic condition. That is secondary. But dharma is meant for ultimate goal of liberation. People do not know that. People are not educated that what is the ultimate goal of life. Still, they take to religious life as a compromise between the contending elements, that "We must live peacefully under religious system." The aim is how to live in this material world peacefully. Sometimes religion and God is conceived in that way, that is, "If we have some conception of God, then we shall be moral, we shall be peaceful.
Pradyumna: Page 2. "Those in pure devotional service deride even the conception of liberation. 6) Pure devotional service is the only means to attract Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is all attractive, but pure devotional service attracts even Him. This means that pure devotional service is even transcendentally stronger than Kṛṣṇa Himself, because it is Kṛṣṇa's internal potency."
Prabhupāda: So six advantages. These are the immediate result of taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pure devotional service brings immediate relief from all kinds of material distress. There is a song of Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura: mānasa deha geha yo kichu mora, arpilūn tuyā pade nanda-kiśora. The purport of this song is when we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā, then we get relief from all kinds of anxieties. This is very simple to understand. Everyone is, in the material world, here, everyone is full of anxieties. That is the nature of material existence. One after another, problems. So if somebody says, assures, that "You just depend on me. I take charge of all your problems," how much relief you will feel. Just imagine. So an ordinary man, if some ordinary human being says (to) a friend that "Don't worry. I shall take charge of your all affairs.
So things are very easy, and one can achieve very easily, but they are reluctant to take the easiest process given by Kṛṣṇa, given by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa is giving the easiest process, that "You surrender unto Me. I give you all possible help." We are not prepared to do that. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. You'll achieve the highest perfection." Not we are prepared. Therefore it is said, "Pure devotional service is rarely achieved." People will not accept the simple thing. They want to make something very difficult, then it is all right.
"Those in pure devotional service deride even the conception of liberation." Yes. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate asmān. A devotee does not care for mukti. Mukti... Why they will care for mukti? As soon as he's a pure devotee, Mukti is on his leg. Why he should try for mukti? Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura says, muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate asmān. There is no need of separate endeavor for getting liberation. It is already there. Muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate asmān dharmārtha-kāma-mokṣa samaya-pratīkṣāḥ (SB 4.8.41).
So "Pure devotional service is the only means to attract..." "Those in pure devotional service deride even the conception of liberation." Mukti. Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī... Kaivalyam. Mukti's another name is kaivalya. "Everything is one. One, knowledge." That's all. So Prabodhananda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. This conception of liberation, that "I have become one with the Supreme," it is, to a devotee, just like hell. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. They do not give very much value to such conception, to become one with the Supreme. Or liberation, mukti. And the, this is mokṣa-kāmi, those who are aspiring after... Nirbheda-brahmānu-sandhana, without any difference with the Supreme Brahman. That is called mukti, liberation. And tridaśa-pūr ākāśa-puṣpāyate. And the karmīs, they're aspiring after heavenly planets, tri-daśa-pūr. Tri-daśa means thirty. So there are more than thirty millions of demigods in different planetary systems. They are called heavenly planets. So they are ākāśa-puṣpa. Ākāśa-puṣpa means a flower does not grow in the sky; it is something imaginary, phantasmagoria. Tri-daśa-pūr ākāśa-puṣpāyate. So karmīs are interested in the ākāśa-puṣpa, heavenly planet. And the jñānīs are interested in mukti. Karmī, jñānī... And yogis are interested how to control the senses.
If one thinks that he has become very advanced in devotion, then that is very dangerous. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' karila śāsana: (CC Adi 7.71) "My spiritual master saw Me a great fool. Therefore he has chastised Me, that 'Don't try to read the Vedānta. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.' " He presented Himself like that. Is Caitanya Mahāprabhu mūrkha? But that is the conception, advanced devotee. They never think that they are very highly advanced devotees. What is advanced devotee? What devotion we can offer to Kṛṣṇa? He's unlimited. He's kindly accepting our little service. That's all. Don't be proud of becoming a great devotee. That is the cause of falldown.
Thank you very much. (end)
There, there are three kinds of so-called spiritual happiness, brahma-sukha, brahmānanda... Three kinds of ānanda, jaḍānanda, brahmānanda. Jaḍānanda means material. As karmīs are trying to possess more and more, more and more—"Let me possess, let me possess"—this is jaḍānanda. Today I have got, say, one lakh of rupees. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. This is stated, the asuric vicāra. "Today I have got so much money. And tomorrow I am going to increase it to so much." Ko 'sti āḍhyo 'yam. "I am the richest." This is karmī's conception. And jñānīs, because they're fed up, so they say, brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā: "This world is false." Grapes are sour. You know the story, jackal? He wanted to take the grapes, jumping, jumping, jumping. When he could not get it, he says, "Oh, grapes are sour. I have no necessity. I have no necessity." Similarly these rascals, they renounce the world. What renouncement? What you had? You are renouncing? This is also wrong. The real happiness is sevā. "This is Kṛṣṇa's, and it must be used for Kṛṣṇa's purpose." That is real happiness. Actual, that is the fact. The same example: If you pick up one hundred rupees' note, if you pocket it, then you are a thief. If you don't touch it, then it will be lost; somebody will take it. You pick up and give to the original proprietor, that will be satisfaction. That is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. We do not say anything bad. We do not say. That is Rūpa Gosvāmī's formula. That is Vaiṣṇava formula.
Prabhupāda: Because they have no conception of Godhead. Nirākāra. So nirākāra, where is the loving affairs with nirākāra? I cannot love the air. If I want to love, if somebody says, "You love this air, nirākāra," oh, where is my love? Love must be there. Just like here we have got Kṛṣṇa. We can love. We cannot love this sky. So they have no conception of God; therefore their love of God is all fictitious. Just like Rabindranath Tagore, he has written Gītāñjali, "Tumi." Who is that tumi, he does not know. All the poetry's "tumi, tomāra," and who is that rascal, tumi or tomāra? But that he does not know. This is going on. Now if I say, "My husband, tumi," I know, he's my husband. Or his form is like that. Then I can say. But he does not know who is that tumi. Everyone... The impersonalists will pray, tam eva mātā tam eva pitā. But who is that mātā, who is that pitā? That he does not know. We say, "Here is your mātā, pitā, Kṛṣṇa. Here is Kṛṣṇa." That is tangible. Fact. Not fictitious. Go on.
Bhavānanda: "Their ultimate goal is to become one with the Lord. This concept is simply an extension of the material idea. In the material world..."
Prabhupāda: Our concept is also to become one with God, but not that I become one with God; I agree with God. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). I agree, "Yes, Sir. So long I was foolishly conducted. Now I surrender unto You."
Bhavānanda: "However, the perfect spiritual concept of life is complete knowledge of one's constitutional position, and thus one knows enough to dovetail himself in the transcendental loving..."
Prabhupāda: This is called ātma-jñāna. Ātma-jñāna. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāta yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. This is ātma-tattvam. "I am spirit soul," that is partial knowledge. And I am eternal spirit soul, but unless I know that I am part and parcel of the Supreme Ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, my knowledge is not perfect. Simply brahma-bhūtaḥ, to know that I am spirit soul, that is not perfect knowledge. You have to still go further. Therefore in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra (SB 1.1.2). Śrīdhara Swami says that kaitava. When one thinks artificially that he becomes, he has become liberated, one with the Supreme, that is also kaitava, cheating. He's not. How he can be one with the Supreme Lord? Then how he has become insignificant creature if he's Supreme Lord? Therefore this kind of conception, that "I have become God now," this is also cheating, another cheating. He's cheating, self-deception. He's cheating himself. And what to speak of others. So this kind of oneness, or to become God, they're imperfect knowledge.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Nityānanda Prabhu, both of Them have come to deliver these fallen souls of this material world who are in the darkness of conception. So They are fighting all over the world this darkness. Just now somebody told me that the king of the Arabia is killed. He is killed now by his nephew or somebody else. This is going on. Even in family affairs it is going on. Why? This darkness. Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu along with His associates, Nityānanda Prabhu, Advaita Prabhu, Gadādhara Prabhu and Śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda, they are trying to dissipate the darkness of this false identification. Kṛṣṇa simply instructed Arjuna about his darkness of identity, and He punished him, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: (BG 2.11) "You are talking very big, big words, but you are lamenting on a subject matter on which no learned person laments." Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. That means "You are fool number one." Paṇḍitāḥ. "No paṇḍita makes like that. Now try to understand what is the position."
So if we want to know Viṣṇu-tattva, if we want to know Kṛṣṇa, His exalted position, then here are the description of the śāstra, and if we take them as it is, without malinterpretation, without showing any extraordinary intelligence by us... It is not possible. We have to accept. Therefore the injunction is that you accept the statement of the śāstras. That is... Bhagavad-gītā also said, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate-kāma-kārataḥ: (BG 16.23) "If you do not follow the description of the śāstra and if you manufacture something," then na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti, "then you'll never get perfection." We have to follow the śāstra; otherwise there is no other alternative to understand the exalted position of Kṛṣṇa, how He expands in different forms, as Viṣṇu, as Nārāyaṇa. Sometimes they argue that Kṛṣṇa is incarnation of Viṣṇu. That is also truth. You'll find in Caitanya... Truth in this way, that when any incarnation comes, He comes through the Kṣīrobdhi-śāyī Viṣṇu. But Kṣīrobdhi-śāyī is partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa. The subject matter is very intricate, but if we follow the śāstra and accept it, then some clear conception we can have.
Therefore the author is instructing us, jayatāṁ suratau paṅgor mama manda-mater. Manda means one who cannot go very fast, or bad, manda means bad. Manda means slow. In this age especially, in Kali-yuga we become very, very slow in spiritual progress, although that is our main business. But on account of this Kali-yuga, we are all very, very slow. We think that "Spiritual cultivation is meant for old age. Now let us enjoy our life in this material world." That is our wrong conception of life. What do you mean by old age? Nearing death. So who can guarantee that he is not nearing death? Everyone is nearing death at every moment. Why should you wait for old age? That is manda-mater, bad intelligence. We should know that death may take place at any moment. Therefore every one of us are already old. (We) generally understand that old age means nearing death, but who can guarantee that there is no death immediately? At any moment. Therefore śāstra says tūrṇaṁ yateta anu-mṛtyu pateta yāvad, Before meeting your next death, you should endeavor so dexterously that you complete your Kṛṣṇa consciousness before your death comes. That is intelligence. Not that "I am now young man, let me enjoy. And in old age, after passing sixty years, when there will be no other engagement, at that time I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." No. Immediately, tūrṇaṁ yate.
Then, if you become a man of religiosity, then your economic wants will be almost nil. Dharma, artha and kāma. And, if your economic wants are fulfilled, then you can fulfill your sense enjoyment very nicely. We want economic development—why? Because we want to... Ordinary man, who is in the material world, he wants to fulfill his sense... He has got so many demands of his senses, either in this world or in the other world. Suppose a man is trying by his, following the religious principle to go to other planets. What is the purpose of going to other planets, heavenly planets? It is for having a better facility for sense enjoyment. Just like, according to Hindu conception, the heavenly planet, Indraloka, it is said there are very beautiful women and very beautiful gardens, and they can drink soma rasa and enjoy life for ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to six months of this planet. So opulence, life, enjoyment, far, far greater than this; therefore they want to go to the heavenly planets. Similarly... These are facts. These are not, I mean to say, stories, or fiction. These are facts. Similarly, in the Koran also there is such injunction that if one follows the principles of Koran, in the next life they'll go to Hur(?), the land of the Hu(?), the same beautiful woman.
So He's not so easy to understand. "Oh, Kṛṣṇa is born in Mathurā. His father is Vasudeva. Oh, He..." No. He's unborn. He's unborn, but I am seeing that He's born. Just like sun is unborn. I am seeing that at five o'clock sun is born in the eastern side of New York City. This is my foolishness. Sun is never born. He's always there. It is my imperfectness that I am seeing that sun is born this hour. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is never born. Kṛṣṇa is just like sun. So as they are, if we want to understand... Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet: "Things which are beyond your conception," avāṅ manasā gocaraḥ, "beyond your expression, beyond your knowledge, don't apply your so-called argument and reason." That is Vedānta study. If, if you do not understand, put question to your spiritual master, try to understand, but as a matter of fact, you should know, "What is stated here, that is all right. It is due to my imperfectness of knowledge I cannot just now understand it. Let me ask my spiritual master and let me understand it properly." But a thing as it is, that is all right. We must take it. Mukhya-vṛttye. Mukhya means "as it is." Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). What commentation you can give? If the Vedas says, Īśopaniṣad, that "Everything belongs to God," how can you deny it? What is your argument? What is your...? You cannot deny it.
Similarly, there are other statements. Sa vṛkṣaḥ kalaḥ kṛtibhiḥ paro 'nyat yasmād prapañca-parivartateyaṁ dharmavahaṁ pāpamaruddham. Then another statement, vedāham etat puruṣaṁ mahāntam āditya-varṇaṁ tamasaḥ parastād, that vedāham: "I understand that Supreme Person." Vedāham. Vedāham means "I understand." Puruṣa. He's again puruṣa. In the Bhagavad-gītā also you'll find, when Arjuna is recognizing Kṛṣṇa, he said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān puruṣam (BG 10.12). Again puruṣam. So God is never woman. The foolish person who says that God is, can be worshiped as woman, as mother... No. That is not according to Vedic literature. God is always father. Therefore Bible is all right-conception of father, not mother. Not that "I worship Kali, goddess mother, and become God." These are all nonsense. He's always father, puruṣa. Everywhere we find puruṣa. Never we find that God is a female. No. God cannot be female. Female is energy. Just like Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Rādhā is Kṛṣṇa, but the energy of Kṛṣṇa, pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, and still, Kṛṣṇa is male and Rādhā is female. So God, conception of God, always...
That is nature's arrangement. Viṣayaḥ khalu sarvataḥ syāt. Therefore Bhāgavata asks everybody that "Don't be after viṣaya. Viṣaya is already arranged. Accept it as it is." But tūrṇaṁ yateta na mṛtyuṁ pateta yāvat niḥśreyasāya: "Your endeavor should be how to elevate yourself spiritually. Don't bother about viṣaya. Viṣaya is already arranged by nature's way." So patiṁ patīnāṁ paramaṁ parastāt. No. He's also, God is also, as we are given the chance of becoming husband, similarly, He's the supreme husband. Supreme husband. Now, if He's the supreme husband and if He marries sixteen thousand wives, it is very difficult for Him? It is not at all difficult. So people do not understand, do not consult this Vedic literature, how it is stated the Supreme. How one can become Supreme? The Supreme... We judge the Supreme in the same philosophy, frog philosophy. "Atlantic Ocean? Oh, it may be a little bigger than this well. That's all." So our calculation of God is always like that. "Kṛṣṇa, He looks like us, just like a man. So what is there? He may be a little powerful than me. All right, He has spoken Bhagavad-gītā. All right. He's little more wiser than us." So we always compare with us. But it is not. He's supreme. We have no idea of the Supreme. Therefore we forget personality. Patiṁ patī... It is clearly stated, pati. Can pati, the husband or proprietor, can become imperson? No. When the conception of pati, husband and proprietor, is there, then He is personal. Patiṁ patīnāṁ paramaṁ parastāt mahān prabhavaiḥ puruṣaḥ.
So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says the direct meaning of Brahman is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cid-aiśvarya-paripūrṇa, anūrdhva-samāna. Now what is the grammatical meaning of Brahman? The grammatical meaning of Brahman is that "the greatest" and "expansive." That is the grammatical meaning of Brahman. Which is unlimitedly expanded and greatest, He is called Brahman. Now, who can be unlimitedly expansive unless He's unlimitedly powerful? Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also, the same meaning is there. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). So Brahman-Paramātmā ultimately means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Without coming to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the conception of Brahman-Paramātmā is imperfect. Why? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that cid-aiśvarya-paripūrṇa, anūrdhva-samāna. You cannot have conception of the greatest, unlimited, unless you place six kinds of opulence, opulences in full. Because aiśvarya, the opulences... Just like wealth, fame, and beauty, knowledge, and renunciation, they should be unlimited. Now, when they are not unlimited, he's not Brahman, or he's not the Supreme Lord.
Here in this material world we have got experience that if I have got one rupee in my pocket and if that one rupee is taken from my pocket or it is expended, there is no more one rupee. It is spent. It is zero now. Or that one rupee has been distributed in purchasing several commodities. So the one rupee is distributed. There is no more separate existence of that one rupee. This is material idea. But according to Vedic scripture, pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). If you take one rupee from that one rupee, still that one rupee is there. That you cannot adjust in your teeny brain. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, acintya. It is not accommodated in our teeny brain. Therefore those who are teeny brain, or poor fund of knowledge, they think that when the Absolute Truth is distributed, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, then where is the person? But that is not the conception. The conception is He is unlimitedly powerful, ṣaḍ-aiśvarya pūrṇa, with all power. He can create so many personalities Himself. Just like Kṛṣṇa expanded Himself into 16,000 forms. When He married 16,000 wives, He expanded Himself in 16,000 forms. When He was dancing in rasa-līlā, He expanded Himself. Each gopī was thinking that "Kṛṣṇa is dancing with me." So that is Kṛṣṇa's, or God's, unlimited potency. Not that if He expands, He becomes zero.
Now Caitanya Mahāprabhu is beginning the identification of the living entity from the end of Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa is demanding at the last instruction, "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, My dear Arjuna, because you are My dear friend." So what is that? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). This is the most confidential part of... It is not understood by general public, but this is the only knowledge, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. Kṛṣṇa came, appeared on this planet, for dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. He did not come to establish the conception of Hindu religion and Muslim religion or Christian religion or this religion. No. Real religion. Real religion. What is that real religion? To surrender unto the Supreme Lord. That is real religion. So just like our real citizens means..., citizenship means that we surrender to the government regulation, similarly, dharma means dharmāṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). You cannot manufacture dharma as you cannot manufacture law at home. That is not. Now they are manufacturing and it is being supported, yata mat tata pat. Whatever... (break)...manufacture, it is all right. It cannot be all right. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the Supreme. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Everything is being conducted under His instruction. The sun is rising exactly at time. Yasyājñaya bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro. These are description in the Vedic literatures.
This is real question: "What I am?" So Sanātana Gosvāmī's question is being answered by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that "Because you have this inquiry, this is the beginning of human life." So if one is little inquisitive to know what I am, then his real life begins. And if he is kept in the darkness and he remains in the darkness, that "I am this body," there is no value of so-called civilization, education, nothing. It is a very important question, ke āmi kene āmāya. One must be inquisitive. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. He must be conscious that "I do not want all these things, miserable condition of life, and they are enforced upon me. I cannot check them; they are coming. No, there must be somebody superior who's law is being forced." That is the factor. That is religion. Religion means to find out the supreme controller who is forcing everything. That is religion. That is stated in the dictionary. Religion is not some sentiment, some ritualistic ceremony. No. This inquiry about the supreme controller, that's a fact. We see in every step there is a supreme controller, and we are foolishly declaring that we are independent. This is called foolishness. So real religion means to come out from this foolish conception of life, that "There is no controller. We are everything. Whatever we like, you can do. There is no life after death, and there is no life in other planets..." These are all ignorance. Simply fool's paradise. It has no meaning.
So here the most important word is sad-dharma. Dharma... In the English dictionary dharma is described as a kind of faith, but here it is said, sad-dharma. Sad-dharma. Sat means which exists, which never diminishes. In the Vedic knowledge we get information, asato mā sad gama: "Don't remain in the nonexistentional platform." Sad-gama: "Go to the platform of eternal life." That we can understand, what is sat and what is asat. Sat, cit, ānanda. Sac-cid-ānanda. We describe Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). So that is sat. Sat means eternal. And so according to reference with sat and asat, there are two kinds of dharma. I... Several places in my books I have described, dharma means occupational duty, occupational duty. So if we are on the platform of asad-dharma, just like on the conception of this body... This is asad-dharma. Everyone knows the body will not exist; therefore it is asat. So any dharma or any occupational duty with reference to this nonpermanent body, that is asad-dharma. Asad-dharma. Whatever our occupational duties are now going on in this big city of New York... What is their occupational duty? The duty... Everyone is going to the office early in the morning. They have got... Everyone has got duty, but that duty—asad-dharma. Body will not exist; therefore anything done on account of the body, that is asad-dharma. That is not real dharma.
So this sad-dharma means the occupational duty of the soul. That is sad-dharma. And except that duty, whatever we are doing, that is asad-dharma; it will not stay. Now I have got this body, Indian body or Christian body or American body. But this, everything, this conception of Christianity or Indian nationality or American nationality—everything will be finished with this body. Everything will be finished. Therefore all our engagements in this connection, they are all asad-dharma. It is very difficult. We are all engaged in occupational duties, all asad-dharma. But the Vedic injunction is asato mā sad gama: "Don't remain in this asat platform. Come to the sat platform." And the same thing is described here, sad-dharmasyāvabodhāya. So the human life begins when we can distinguish between sat and asat. If we remain in darkness without understanding what is sat and asat, then we are no better than dogs and cats. So the modern civilization, not only... Nowadays very big problem. People are very much attached to asad-dharma. They are not... Because they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand what is sat and what is asat. They cannot understand, dull-headed. Therefore brain requires to be clarified.
A servant cannot become master. That is not possible. But as soon as... As long as we shall persist on this wrong conception of life, that "I am not master; I am servant," er, "I am not servant; I am master," then he will suffer. The māyā will give him suffering. Daivī hy eṣā. Just like outlaws, rogues and thieves, they defy government order: "I don't care for government." But that means he voluntarily accepts suffering. He has to take care of government law. If he does not ordinarily take care, outlaw, then he'll be put into the prison house and by force, by beating, by punishment, he has to accept: "Yes, yes, I accept."
So this is māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayi mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). We are under the rulings of the māyā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Why? Because we are declaring master. Servant is declaring to become master; therefore suffering. And as soon as we accept that "I am not master; I am servant," then there is no suffering. Very simple philosophy. That is mukti. Mukti means just come to the right platform. That is mukti. Mukti is defined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, muktir hitvā anyathā rūpaṁ svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to give up this nonsense business, anyathā. He is servant, but he's thinking master. That is ankatha (?), just the opposite. So when he gives up this opposite conception of life that he is master, then he is mukti; he's liberated immediately.
Just like the fish, their body is so made that they can live within the water. Similarly, there also there are many, many living entities. The sun planet is very, very big, fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. So it is all congested with population. And because they are all fiery, everything made there fiery, therefore it is a blazing fire, and the illumination is coming all over the universe. But they cannot understand this, the so-called scientists. It is not... Beyond their conception. But this is a fact. And the moon planet is also fiery, exactly like the sun. Therefore that illumination is distributed. But the difference is, so far I can remember, that the moon planet fire is surrounded by cool atmosphere. Because the heat is coming through some cool atmosphere, it is at night so pleasing. It is not vacant. There is also living entities. This is one of the heavenly planets. Heavenly planet begins from the sun, then moon, then Mars, Jupiter, like that. We have challenged this, that moon planet is beyond the sun planet. The moon planet is not the first planet. The sun is first, moon is second. So we have to learn from Vedic literature all this information. Many, many millions of years ago this Vedic literature was given to us. So about these planetary systems, everything is there, described. It is not unknown.
The Māyāvādī philosophers, they think materially, that "If God is all-pervading, why He should be localized?" Why He should not be? That is answer. God is not under your dictation. He is all-powerful. He can do so. Remaining in His own place, He can be distributed. He can distribute Himself everywhere. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham. Advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33).
- eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ
- yac-caktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ
- aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-sthaṁ
- govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
- This is the conception of all-pervading.
So eka-deśa-sthitasyāgner jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā, parasya brahmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. So we should understand presence of God everywhere by His energy.
So if we bring everything to our conception, that becomes cintya, conceivable, but that is not the fact. Therefore here it is stated, acintya-jñāna-gocarāḥ. We have to receive this knowledge from sources which can inform us about all these things inconceivable by us. It is not possible to bring the inconceivable within our conceivable limit. That is not possible. That is foolishness. Mūḍha. Mūḍha will not believe. We are finding out, try to... This is knowledge. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). To find out the source of everything the Absolute Truth, and when the Absolute Truth comes down to inform us, Kṛṣṇa, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8), we don't believe it. First of all we cannot understand it, and if the Supreme Personality of Godhead comes personally to speak about Himself, we do not believe it. This is our position. First of all we shall challenge, "Can you show me God?" And if God comes Himself we don't believe, then what is our position? You want to see God. All right, God has come here. See, here is God. "No, this is idol worship." In the Bengali there is a word, ei gule nipamsa pechlo belo gelo (?). So this is our position. This position will not help us. We must admit our position that in the God's creation everything is inconceivable by us. We cannot calculate within our limitation. That is not possible.
Therefore śāstra says, acintya khalu ye bhava. The same word in another way: na tas tarkyena yojayet. Things which are beyond your conception, don't try to understand it by your so-called logic and argument.
So Lord Caitanya explained to the poverty-stricken man that simile. The astrologer is foretelling about the poverty-stricken man that "You are a very rich man's son. Your father has got so much wealth, but you do not know. Therefore you are suffering." To be poor man in this world, material world, is a curse for ordinary, general people. Those who are spiritually enriched, they have nothing to do with this poverty or richness of this material world. But those who are under the concept of material life, poverty is a curse for them. So living entities, they are not meant for being poverty-stricken because they are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, the supreme proprietor. Therefore he has, by his birthright, to enjoy the God's property. That is the law. But under spell of illusion, we have forgotten our relationship with the supreme father; therefore we are suffering. This is the diagnosis. Now we have to find out how to go home, back to go, back to home, back to Godhead. That should be the mission of human life. Never mind under what circumstances and why we are in contact with this material world, but we should come to this point by the instruction of the astrologer-like Vedic literatures. Just like the astrologer is giving hint to the poor man, similarly, the Vedic literature is also giving us hint, astrological instructions, that we can become the richest by reviving our lost relationship with our father.
So by philosophical speculation this process is... Now, what is that philosophical speculation? What is this material world? They are divided into twenty-four parts, this material world. What are those? Now, the first thing is that what we see, the five material elements, the earth, water, fire, air, ether. These are material elements. These are studied. Then finer than the ether is the mind, then finer than the mind is the intelligence, and finer than the intelligence... Mana, buddhi, ahaṅkāra. Ahaṅkāra means ego, ego, false conception, that "I am this matter." These are eight elements. Then your senses, five working senses and five knowledge-acquiring senses... Just like our eyes, ears, tongue, hand—all these five senses, they are acquiring knowledge. And five senses just like hands, legs, and evacuating hole, genital—these are five senses by which we are enjoying or suffering. And the five objects of senses. What is that? Form, rūpa; rasa, taste; smell; and... Rūpa; rasa; gandha; śabda, sound; sparśā, touch. So these five. So five plus eleven, and mind. Five plus eleven equal to sixteen, and these eight elements, twenty-four. The whole material world is analyzed into twenty-four parts. That analytical study is called sāṅkhya. Samyak khyāpayati iti sāṅkhya: complete, full analysis of this, whatever we are experiencing. And above that, that spirit soul, above that. Because these twenty-four elements, they are combination. Whatever we are thinking, whatever we seeing in this material world, they are combination of these twenty-four elements. And above that, there is the soul. And above that, there is God.
So you... Impersonal conception of Godhead, localized conception of Godhead or universal form of God, pantheism, monism—they are not perfect. If you want to know perfectly, then bhakti... It is stated in everywhere, in all Vedic literatures, evidentially in Bhagavad-gītā, which is present before us, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Everywhere you will find this only way, that devotional service. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Tattvataḥ means "in fact." Partially you can know, but in complete... Of course, God cannot be known in complete, but the highest point a human being or a living entity can reach... That, the only process, through bhakti... Bhaktyāham ekayā grāhyaḥ śraddhayātmā priyaḥ satām. Śraddhā ātmā priyaḥ satām. That bhakti, that process of devotional service, is very dear to the actual transcendentalist, very dear. Bhaktiḥ punāti man-niṣṭhā. Man-niṣṭhā. To know simply "I believe in God," that is not sufficient. The ultimate goal is to attain very intimate relationship or love of Godhead. That is required. Of course, to know, to believe in God, to accept God, that is all right. It is better than the atheist. But that is not end. You must develop yourself.
So as described here, kṛṣṇa svarūpa ananta vaibhava apāra. So although He is transmitting innumerable energies and although He is expanding Himself in innumerable forms, still, He is one. Still, He is the same and one. That is the spiritual conception, or absolute conception. Absolute is not relative. "Because something has being taken away, therefore it is something less"—it is relative. It is not absolute. This idea is relative. I have got in my pocket ten dollars. So I have taken two dollars. Now it is eight dollars. This is relative truth. This is not absolute idea. Absolute idea is that pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya pūrṇam evāvaśiṣyate (Īśo Invocation). Avaśiṣyate means the balance is still full. Whatever you may take, the balance is still.
So this impersonal idea of God is for the less intelligent person, not for the intelligent persons. Those who are, I mean to say, favored with poor fund of knowledge, they cannot conceive about the Personality of Godhead. Therefore we have to approach authorities just like Lord Caitanya. He is putting something before us. Even in Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa also says that "I am person. I am person." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7). And it is confirmed by Arjuna. What is that? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). Pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. So the Bhagavad-gītā, the speaker of the Bhagavad-gītā, establishing Himself that "I am person," and the student of the Bhagavad-gītā, I mean to say, Arjuna, he is accepting, "Yes. You are person. I accept it." I do not know why these fools explain, from Bhagavad-gītā, impersonalism. Where is the chance of explaining impersonal about conception of God from Bhagavad-gītā? Now, how they can surpass the speaker and the student? The student is Arjuna. He is accepting that "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And the speaker, Kṛṣṇa, He is also establishing Himself that "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Now, wherefrom these fools take impersonal idea, I do not know. How they can? There is no chance. But still, they will poke their nose in that way. It is very sorry plight. You see? They are simply misleading persons.
So vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam, brahmeti (SB 1.2.11). That Absolute Truth is manifested in three phases. What is that? Brahman. Brahman is impersonal, Brahman conception. Then Paramātmā, localized conception. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām: (BG 18.61) "Īśvara, the Lord, is sitting in everyone's heart." This is Paramātmā conception. And Bhagavān. Bhagavān means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So Bhagavān, Paramātmā and Brahman, they are not different. Simply according to my realization, the different names are there, according to my different realization. Somebody is realizing only the impersonal manifestation, energies, and somebody is experiencing the... Because God is everywhere. So I experience this way; you experience in that way. Therefore the name, Absolute Truth, is differently named. Otherwise there is no difference. It is my realization. So we... If somebody argues, "The sunshine is sun," well, that can be accepted. Why not? Sunshine is sun. But if somebody says, "No, sunshine is not sun," that is also accepted because sunshine is not sun also. Somebody says that "Sunshine is sun." That is accepted.
So this is called advaya-jñāna. Similarly, when we read Bhagavad-gītā, that is also Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we should pay respect. When we enter into the temple of Kṛṣṇa, it should be understood that we are in touch with Kṛṣṇa. Everything in relationship is Kṛṣṇa. That is the highest... Therefore the devotees who are in the higher conception of Kṛṣṇa consciousness sees nothing before him save and except Kṛṣṇa. That is not to be imitated, but the stage, in the higher stage, the devotee sees nothing but Kṛṣṇa. Sarvatra sphūraya tāṅra iṣṭa-deva mūrti. Everything in relation to Kṛṣṇa. Matter is energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore energy and the energetic, not being different, so even in the material world he sees Kṛṣṇa. So for him, there is no matter, everything spiritual. Advaya-jñāna. There is no matter at all. Just like in Kṛṣṇa, he has no distinction what is matter, what is spirit, but in our conditioned stage we have got superior, inferior conception. But when we are also in the higher stage of the Absolute Truth, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54), when we are actually in such pure devotional service in Kṛṣṇa, then we will see that everything is Kṛṣṇa.
So all these list... Bhāgavata is specifying about Kṛṣṇa. All this full list of God's incarnation... Either they are part, plenary part, or parts of the parts of the parts of the Supreme, but here, the name Kṛṣṇa, He's the original God. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam: (SB 1.3.28) "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa." That has been particularly pointed out in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, although there are list of many. So that, that Kṛṣṇa, although He is original, still, indrāri-vyākulaṁ lokaṁ mṛḍayanti yuge yuge. Indrāri. Indra. Indra is the king of heaven. And ari, ari means enemy. Just like the heavenly king and the Satan, conception of Satan. So when there is satanic influence over the kingdom of God, or the devotees, or the appointed demigods, they are disturbed by satanic influence, then Kṛṣṇa comes. Yadā yadā hi... That is stated, confirmed, in Bhagavad-gītā.
Lord Caitanya says that "The conception of Brahman is that it is the rays of the body of Kṛṣṇa. Just like the sunshine is the rays of the body of the sun disc, similarly," brahma-aṅga-kānti tāṅra nirviśeṣa prakāśe. And in that brahma-jyotir, or rays, there is no variegatedness. Just like if you all of a sudden see to the sun, you don't find any variegatedness in the sky. It appears just like only dazzling effulgence. But when the sunlight is not there, we can see millions and millions of stars in the firmament. So in the Upaniṣad also, it is prayed that "My Lord, You kindly move this curtain of glaring effulgence so that I can actually see You."
Now, so far this material creation is concerned, it is said here that "By His material potency, He manifests this material world and unlimited universes within the material world." So nobody should think that the material world has come out of nothing, out of void. No. This is confirmed in all Vedic literature and especially in the Brahma-saṁhitā, and in the Bhagavad-gītā also it is stated, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). So material nature is not independent. It is a misunderstanding, a wrong conception, that matter is working out of its own accord. Matter has no power to work. It is a jaḍa-rūpā. Jaḍa-rūpā means it has no moving capacity or, what is called, initiative. Matter has no initiative. Therefore matter cannot manifest in such a way without the direction of the Supreme Lord. Māyā-dvāre sṛje teṅho brahmāṇḍera gaṇa. Actually, it is His direction, but material potency is help only. That's all.
They do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya jīvanti loma-vilajā jagad-aṇḍa-nāthāḥ (Bs. 5.48). And they're coming out... Just like within our breathing there are so many things, particles, or germs are coming, similarly, with the breathing period of Mahā-Viṣṇu, so many universes are coming. This is Bhagavān. By breathing period innumerable universes are created. Not that they create something jugglery and become Bhagavān. Our conception of Bhagavān from the śāstra is different.
So we are going to open this temple. Those who are in charge, they must take care of the temple. Cleanliness. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau. The more we have got men, engage them. And do not think that temple cleaning and Deity worshiping are different. Do not be envious, that "This person has been given the in charge of decorating the Deity, and I have (been) given to wash the temple where there are not Deity." No. It is the same thing. There is no difference. It is spiritual. In spiritual... Just like either you worship Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet or you offer a garland to Kṛṣṇa on His head, it is the same thing. It is no such thing as "This is head, this is tail." No. This is absolute conception of... So Bhagavān, His līlā, His form, His pastimes, His place, they're all Bhagavān. Even higher, those who are highly elevated devotees, they do not see even this material world different from Bhagavān. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetara. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Nārada Muni says. The whole universe is Bhagavān, although it appears different from Him.
So far those who are in not in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their material academic qualification has no value, no value, however M.A., Ph.D. he may be. Why? Mano-rathena asato dhāvato bahiḥ. Because the materialist without Kṛṣṇa consciousness... That is a materialist. One who has no conception of God, or Kṛṣṇa, and his proper relationship with Him, one who does not know the science of God, he is called materialist. Materialist does not mean something extraordinary (?) personality. One who does not know about Kṛṣṇa, he is materialist. And one who makes progress in the science of Kṛṣṇa under regulation and under principles, they are called spiritualists. So materialists, the disease is that harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathena asati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). Unless we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness fully, we shall hover over the mental plane. We find so many philosophers, doctors of philosophy, they can go on speculating, mental plane, manaḥ, but actually they are asat. Their activities will be seen in materialistic. There is no spiritualistic realization.
Now, this energy manifested as the living entities, they are also two kinds. What are they? Eka-nitya-mukta. One class of living entities, they are eternally liberated. Just like the fishes in the ocean. Take the ocean as the place of liberation. Sometimes the example is given that as the rivers glide down to the ocean and the water is become one... That's all right. That oneness... This is impersonal conception. Everyone goes and mixes as every river goes down to the ocean, and there is no more distinction which is the river water and which is the ocean water. They become one. That is the monistic philosophy. But Vaiṣṇava philosophy goes farther, that "Why you are satisfied with the water? Why don't you see within the water?" Within the water you will find there are big, big fishes and aquatic animals. They keep their separate identity, and they enjoy in the ocean. The foolish persons, they are satisfied that "I am in the ocean now." That is the less intelligence.
The impersonalists think that simply by cultivating knowledge that "I am not matter; I am spirit," or "I am one with the Supreme Spirit; I am now... Out of ignorance, I am thinking different, but when I am fully elevated to the platform of knowledge, then I become liberated." But the..., there is no answer that "Why you have become conditioned?" The impersonalists think that "I am one with the Supreme. Now, due to my ignorance, I have forgotten that I am the Supreme." Because they do not recognize the Supreme Personality of Godhead, so they think that impersonal conception of the spirit soul: "I am now... Out of ignorance, I am thinking matter, but as soon as my ignorance is over, I shall become one with the Supreme." So this is the theory of the impersonalists. But they... They cannot give any answer that "Why you have become under the influence of ignorance? If you are the Supreme, then what is the cause that you have become conditioned? Then the Supreme will become conditioned under the material nature. Then how one can become the Supreme? Supreme cannot be conditioned." So there is no answer for this question from the impersonalists' school. But real fact is that the Supreme never falls down. The part and parcel of the Supreme, they fall down—some of them; not all. So therefore the living entities, they are different from the Supreme. They are one in quality with the Supreme, but not in quantity.
Real knowledge means to understand the last word of the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and surrender unto Him, after knowledge. As it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante: (BG 7.19) "After many, many births, one who is actually in knowledge, he surrenders." So Śrīmad-Bhāgavata practically confirms the same, that śreyaḥ-sṛtiṁ bhaktim udasya te vibho. Any person who does not take to the devotional service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, simply indulge in dry speculation, kliśyanti, takes trouble... Kliśyanti means "takes trouble"; ye, "persons." Kevala-bodha-lab..., simply to understand that "This is not matter, this is not spirit, this is not...," like that, and that there is no separate Supersoul, only one soul is there, and this conception of individual soul is misunderstanding, ignorance—in this way, there are volumes of books of, by Śaṅkarācārya especially, and later on, his disciples. They are very, very learned scholars, undoubtedly. By their scholastic jugglery they want to cover the Supreme Personality of God. They do not want to cover; they think that they are advanced.
Now, there are many speculators. After some philosophical speculation, they think, "Now I have realized that 'I am the same. I am same God. I am God.' " So this process is called jñāna system. So Lord Caitanya says that these jñānīs, they artificially think that "Now I have realized myself," but actually that is not self-realization. Self-realization is when you actually engage yourself in the service of the Lord. That is your self-realization. Because you are part and parcel, your duty is to serve the whole. If you think yourself, "I am whole," that is wrong conception. That is wrong conception. You are not whole. How you can be whole? So there are so many examples that think ourself that "I am the Supreme. I am the whole." Just the other day I was speaking to you: it is the last snare. We are not whole. We are part and parcel. Just..., just the hand in healthy condition, as part and parcel of the body, is very nice. When the hand is working in his position, that position is very nice. But when it is not working—it is in diseased condition—do you think it is very nice? No. Paralyzed hand, simply in the name it is hand, but it has no function. So that sort of understanding, without actually reinstated in the healthy state of our spiritual life, simply thinking that "I am now spiritually realized; I am the Supreme," this is not pure. So Lord Caitanya says, vastutaḥ buddhi 'śuddha' nahe: "That sort of conception is not purified intelligence. That is still contaminated intelligence."
So this sense gratification means, as it is said by Ṛṣabhādeva, na sādhu manye. "I do not think it is very good." Why? Yata asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). If you act irresponsibly, without understanding yourself that you are not this material body, but you are spiritual body, then the result will be continuation of this material body one after another. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. Therefore we are all abodha-jātaḥ, born ignorant. Because from the very beginning of our life we know that "I am this body." There is no education in the material world that we are not this body, we are soul. Although there are books of knowledge, just like Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, but nobody is interested. Therefore they are all mad. They are after the will-o'-the wisp, phantasmagoria, a wrong conception of life. Therefore all their activities are to be considered as defeat. Parābhavas, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. They are born ignorant, and they will continue to be ignorant, and they will be defeated by all their activities. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long he is not awakened to inquire "What I am...?" Simply under madness he is going after this bodily sense enjoyment, but he does not know that he is not this body. Therefore all his activities under this wrong conception of life are to be considered as defeat of his human mission of life. Yes. Just like the Supreme Lord is ānanda-mātram: simply ānanda, bliss, transcendental bliss.
Sri Isopanisad Lectures
That's all. Axiomatic truth. And because the Vedas were particularly studied by the brāhmaṇas, high-class qualified brāhmaṇas, therefore they are also accepted as authority. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was at Purī, the king of that place, Mahārāja Pratāparudra, he inquired from Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya, "Oh, what is your opinion about this Caitanya who has come here?" He said that "He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." So the king immediately accepted it. King said, "Oh, He is Supreme Personality of Godhead?" So he accepted immediately, just like... There is no question of experimenting. Because an authority like Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya is stating, a brāhmaṇa and... He was very learned scholar. You know Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya's name. So because he said that "He is Supreme Personality..." He did not ask any storekeeper, but he asked a learned brāhmaṇa who knows things. So similarly, we have to accept in that way. In each and every case, if we want to research, it is not possible, because our senses are blunt senses. What you can do? Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. The śāstra says that "Things which are beyond your conception, beyond your mental speculation"—avāṅ-manasā gocaraḥ—"neither you can express by words, neither you can think of." Avāṅ-manasā gocaraḥ.
Festival Lectures
So that is the conception of Kṛṣṇa. So unless you, from the very beginning you practice yajña, or if you are a gṛhastha, give in charity, and when you take sannyāsa, you undergo tapasya, how you will understand this philosophy? It is not possible. In the Kali-yuga, however, this yajña is not possible. As there are ritualistic yajña, sacrifice as recommended in the Vedas, that is not possible. It is very expensive. You have to acquire so much ghee and grains and so many other things. Feed so many, daily, people. It is very difficult task to perform the ritualistic yajña. Therefore Kṛṣṇa has made easy. What is that? Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ. That is recommended in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:
- kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇaṁ
- sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam
- yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair
- yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ
- (SB 11.5.32)
This is the process of performing yajñas. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ. What is that yajña? Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam. Varṇa means category. Just like brāhmaṇa-varṇa, cātur-varṇa. Varṇa means class. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). As Kṛṣṇa said. So kṛṣṇa-varṇam: in the category of Kṛṣṇa. So kṛṣṇa-varṇa. Or "One who is describing Kṛṣṇa," varṇayati. Kṛṣṇaṁ varṇayati iti kṛṣṇa, iti kṛṣṇa-varṇa. Either belonging to the category of Kṛṣṇa... He is not belonging to the category of the jīva soul. He belongs to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, kṛṣṇa-varṇa. Or chanting always the holy name of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣā akṛṣṇam. Means He is Kṛṣṇa... Because He belongs to the category of Kṛṣṇa, therefore He is Kṛṣṇa. But we have got conception, Kṛṣṇa is blackish. Yes, that's a fact. Asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. Asita. Asita means black. Asitāmbuda. So black cloud. Ambuda means cloud. Asitāmbuda-sundarāṅgam. His complexion is like blackish cloud, but very, very, very, very beautiful. Kandarpa-koṭi-kamanīyam. He is so beautiful that many millions of Cupid cannot be compared with Him, although He is black. So here the same Kṛṣṇa, kṛṣṇa-varṇam, although He belongs to the same category of Kṛṣṇa, tviṣā, by complexion, akṛṣṇa. Akṛṣṇa. Akṛṣṇa means "not Kṛṣṇa." So it may be any other color. It may be... There are so many colors.
If the factory man knows that he is not the proprietor, he is not the enjoyer of the profit—the enjoyer of the profit is the proprietor of the factory, and we are worker—then there is peace. And if the workers fight amongst themselves, that "I am the proprietor," falsely, then there is chaos. There is no production, chaos. Similarly, if we fight ourselves, amongst ourselves, that "I am proprietor of India; you are proprietor of America; you are proprietor of Germany," this is false conception of life. Real proprietor is Kṛṣṇa. If we know this, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasam... Kṛṣṇa says that "Bhokta, I am bhokta, I am the enjoyer." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasaṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29), "I am the final proprietor, or the supreme proprietor," that's a fact; then there is peace. This is our relationship, that we are part and parcel. We are not non-important: the factory is going on, or the whole world is going on, on account of the living entities. Apareyam itas tu vidhi me prakṛtiṁ parā. Kṛṣṇa says that "Beyond this material energy," bhūmir āpo' nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā (BG 7.4), "these eight kinds of prakṛti, they are my separated energy. But there is another kind of superior energy," yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtim. Just like same example: in the factory there are ingredients and there are workers. So the ingredients are compared with the material energy, bhūmir āpo' nalo vāyuḥ. They are also the property of the workers, because they are living being, jīva bhūtaḥ mahā-bāho yayedam dhāryate jagat, those who are working for development of this material world. The same example.
Actually, our ministers go there and, for some begging purpose: "Give us rice, give us wheat, give us money, give us soldiers." That is their business. But this movement, for the first time, India is giving something to them. It is not a begging propaganda; it is giving propaganda. Because they are hankering after this substance, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have enjoyed enough of this material consciousness. The material consciousness means to enjoy sex life and drink and have sufficient money. These three items, they have got sufficient, immense. There are... So far material comforts, oh, there is no conception in India how they are materially comfortable. Their roads, their cars, their machines... You cannot imagine how American roads are there. There are freeways. In America, there are freeways: without any stoppage you can run your car in seventy mile speed, and four cars going up and four cars going down. And road just like velvet. (laughter) Our roads... So there is no comparison of their materially advancement. So I always... When I run in some freeway... These boys run our cars. And you'll be very pleased that in each and every temple we have got at least four cars, nice. Especially one car for me and two cars for carrying them for saṅkīrtana movement. Very good arrangement. Better than any temple in India.
This morning we have been discussing this śloka. So here also Bhāgavata says that tasmād ekena manasā: "With your one attention," tasmād ekena manasā bhagavān sātvatāṁ patiḥ, "you have to fix your mind on the Supreme Personality of Godhead," sātvatāṁ patiḥ, sātvatāṁ patiḥ, "the master of the devotees." Which bhagavān? There are many bhagavān, because nowadays we have manufactured many bhagavāns. But here it is said that bhagavān means sātvatāṁ patiḥ, who is accepted by great devotees, just like Brahmā, Śiva, and not that by ordinary public one has been accepted, "Oh, here is incarnation of God." No. So that God is Kṛṣṇa. That conception of God is Kṛṣṇa, because in the Bhagavad-gītā you find mattaḥ nānyat parataram asti. Kṛṣṇa says that "There is nothing beyond Me. There is nothing beyond Me." Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate (BG 10.8): "I am the origin of everything." Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: "Everything emanates from Me." Iti matvā: "One who knows this," iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ, "those who are actually learned, he knows it, and therefore he becomes My devotee."
Arrival Addresses and Talks
Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam does not name any particular type of religion. It says, "That religion, that system of religion, is first class," sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ, "transcendental." This "Hinduism," "Muslimism," "Christianism," they are all prākṛta, mundane. But we have to go, transcend this prākṛta, or mundane conception of religion—"We are Hindus," "We are Muslim," "We are Christian." Just like gold. Gold is gold. Gold cannot be Hindu gold or Christian gold or Muhammadan gold. Nobody... Because a lump of gold is in the hand of Hindu or in the Muslim, nobody will say, "It is Muslim gold," "It is Hindu gold." Everyone will say, "It is gold." So we have to select gold, not the Hindu gold or Muslim gold or Christian gold. When Lord Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), He did not mean this Hindu religion or Muslim religion. These are designated. So we have to come to the platform where it is pure; there is no designation. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi: "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." This is real religion. Without this conception, any kind of designated religion, that is prākṛta. That is not transcendental.
That's all. So why one should be disappointed? We say that "You come to the spiritual platform. You will be happy." We want to deliver him from the platform of disappointment. Sometimes one, being very disappointed, he commits suicide. But will anybody recommend that, that "You are so disappointed. Now you commit suicide"? Nobody will do so. So similarly, the skepticism is disappointed. We say, "Why you are disappointed? You come to the spiritual platform, and you will be happy." That is our version. So we are not going to accept his philosophy, skepticism, but we want to deliver him from this fallen condition. That is our mission. He is in false conception, that disappointment. Why? Our Vedic literature says, ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). The living entity, the spirit soul, is by nature happy. There is no question of disappointment. You see Kṛṣṇa's picture anywhere, how they are happy. The gopīs are happy, the cowherd boys are happy, Kṛṣṇa is happy. Simply happiness. Where is disappointment? So you come to that platform. Then you will be also happy. You come to Kṛṣṇa. Dance with Kṛṣṇa. Eat with Kṛṣṇa. And that is information we are giving. Where is the question of disappointment? Come with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa therefore comes personally to show how He is happy in Vṛndāvana, and He is inviting, "Come to Me.
It is not only... When we say that dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā... (BG 2.13). So as this boy, he was a child, now he has become a boy, then after few years he'll become a young man. And then he'll become middle-aged man, then he'll become old man. So this is not our religion, your religion. This is fact. Scientific. When Bhagavad-gītā says dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, that is not meant for the so-called Hindus. It is meant for the Muslims, meant for the Christians, everyone. It is science. Religion is a kind of faith. That they describe. But religion is also not a blind faith. Religion means the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the order of the state. Similarly, religion means the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know what is God, what is order, then where is religion? It is all bogus.
Initiation Lectures
Just like we are having this function. There are many auspicious functions in every religious system, but it is not like that. It is transcendental. It is spiritual. It is not ordinary religious rituals. Chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is not a ritualistic method. It is transcendental. It is natural, original relationship. So this should be avoided. And the conception of realizing oneself as this body, self-realization. No. That should be avoided. And one should not be inattentive while chanting. In this way ten kinds of offenses... Of course, in the beginning we have got... Because our life is contaminated, there may be so many falldowns, but we should be careful. The more we become careful, the more we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa without any offense, the more we quickly become advanced. Just like a person taking medicine, if he takes all care, then the medicine effects very quickly and the disease is cured very quickly, similarly, if we take precaution of these ten kinds of offenses... Of course, by chanting, gradually everything will be cleared, but still, we must be very cautious. Even we fall down, that, Kṛṣṇa will save us if we are sincere.
That I explained. This is the disease, ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). The material disease means I am thinking this body, "I am," and everything belonging to this body or in relationship with the body—"Mine." This is material disease. So we shall see. By chanting we shall see how much we are making progress, how much I am free from these two concept of life, that "I am this body, and anything belonging to this body is mine." This is the test, how we are becoming free from these two concept of life. If there is still the concept that "I am this body, and anything belonging to this body is mine," then you have to chant very cautiously to make progress. That's all. These ten kinds of offenses you should guard against. (break) (japa) (leads girl in chanting:)
- nama oṁ viṣṇu-pādāya kṛṣṇa-preṣṭhāya bhū-tale
- śrīmate bhaktivedānta-svāmin iti nāmine
Come on. Your new name, Anurādhā. A-n-u-r-a-d-h-a. Anurādhā. Anu. Anu means one who follows, and Rādhā, Rādhārāṇī you know. So one who follows Rādhārāṇī. Wherever Rādhārāṇī goes, she follows.
Avacintya means beyond our conception. Even though you are able to go in high speed, and for so many years, still Kṛṣṇa remains avacintya-tattva. Nobody can find out where is Kṛṣṇa's abode, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Therefore, the Māyāvādīs, in desperate frustration, they say that Kṛṣṇa is impersonal, because they want to approach Kṛṣṇa by mundane activities, by mental exercise, mental gymnastic. Kṛṣṇa is not available in that way. Kṛṣṇa is available only to His devotees. Kṛṣṇa is the property of His devotee.
Young boy, young man, everyone wants young wife, enjoy this material life. But he has renounced everything. This is great sacrifice. Instead, in spite of presence of young wife and facilities for material enjoyment, one who renounces for the sake of serving Kṛṣṇa, he is sannyāsī. He is called sannyāsa. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). For better service he ceases to act materially. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. That is sannyāsī. He is therefore called gosvāmī. His name is, from this day, Sudāmā das Gosvāmī. Because go means the senses, and svāmī means the master. At the present moment, in the materialistic concept of life, everyone is servant of the senses. Everyone acts by the dictation of the senses; therefore they can be called, in other words, as godāsa, servant of the senses. Instead of becoming servant of the senses, one has to become the master of the senses. That is called gosvāmī, master of the senses.
Just like in America they produce huge amount of grains. Sometimes they throw it in the sea on account of overproduction. Why overproduction should be given on the sea? It should be utilized. There are so many people starving. But this political situation is there that everyone is thinking "This is my country. This is my home. This is my land." This is called māyā. Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti. Everyone is under this impression, "I am this body, and anything belonging to this body, that is mine." or "my nation." This conception should be given up. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything belongs to the Supreme Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, the same thing is confirmed.
So Kṛṣṇa is always ready to help us provided we are eager to take His help. Then jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā. When Kṛṣṇa takes charge of making you enlightened in knowledge, who can be better person of knowledge, man of knowledge, or wise, than a devotee? A devotee, they say a devotee... Only the foolish person who has no knowledge, he becomes a devotee. That is a wrong conception. Without full knowledge, nobody can become devotee. Because he has no scarcity of knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says, jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā. He gives special—teṣām evānukampārtham aham ajñāna-jaṁ tamaḥ (BG 10.11). "Darkness I drive away." Ajñāna-jaṁ nāśayāmy ātma-bhāva-stho. So take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and avoid these four principles of sinful life and chant sixteen rounds. Then easily you become advanced in spiritual consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you become liberated immediately. Janma karma ca divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9).
Wedding Ceremonies
That is eternal. Similarly, this girl also met me in San Francisco, and she is very faithfully living with this society. She is very mild. So I have selected, "Śyāma dāsī, you should marry Hayagrīva." So they have agreed. And there is no separation. Our relationship is eternal. There is no separation. And this marriage is primarily for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Bodily relationship is secondary. That is not a very important thing. Our first engagement is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So in this happy ceremony, I have got my heartfelt blessings upon you. You be happy. Our parents are present here. It is a very nice arrangement. And forget... In any circumstances... This material world we have to pass through many circumstances, but sometimes, even it is intolerable, we have to tolerate. So according to Hindu conception of life, even there is some misunderstanding between husband and wife, it is not taken very seriously. Never taken very seriously. But in your country, in the name of liberty and freedom, there are so many things. I do not wish to discuss all those things.
General Lectures
Similarly, the whole creation, anything... Generally there are three things: the potent, God, and His three energies. This is the sum total: internal energy, external energy, and marginal energy. External energy is this material manifestation. Just like this body is my external energy. I am soul, so my external energy is this body. Similarly, I have got my internal energy. That is my consciousness. Consciousness is my internal energy, and this body and the mind and this material demonstration, or manifestation, is my external energy. The body has developed, the mind has developed, from me, soul, not that I, consciousness, is developed from this body. No. That is a wrong conception. That is a wrong conception. You cannot develop consciousness from this body. Otherwise a dead man could have been again revived to consciousness. Because if matter is the cause of consciousness, then the whole matter is there already. Whole matter. The dead body means, so far material substance is concerned, everything is there, present.
So the explanation of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare is addressing, addressing the Supreme Lord through the energy, Harā. Harā is the energy, internal energy. Just like when there is... Of course, in your country there is no sun worship, but in India there are persons who are sun worshipers. So they worship sun with so many things. And there is a lamp also. Now, this lamp is a light, but it is being offered for satisfying the sun. Now, sun is so lightful, this light is merely insignificant before the sunlight. But still, because I have no other means, I am getting sunlight, imitation of that light, and offering, and that offering is accepted. So these are spiritual conception. When we gradually make our progressive advancement, these things will be realized. But for the present we can take this instruction from authorized scripture that,
- ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi
- na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ
- sevonmukhe hi jihvādau
- svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ
- (CC Madhya 17.136)
Prabhupāda: Why do you ask for India? I am talking of religious principle. How many of you Christian, you surrender unto God? First answer this. Then you go to India. Anyone, Christian or Muslim or Hindu, it doesn't matter. The conception of God is there. If you do not surrender unto God, you have no religion. Yes?
Student (5): In the Bhagavad-gītā, when Kṛṣṇa asks Arjuna to go forth in the battle and not to, to slay his relatives and not to be caught in the material world and see that the slayer and the slain are one, should the young American faced with the war in Vietnam go forth to Vietnam realizing that the slayer and the slain are one and that all this slaughter, just slaughter karma, and follow the way of the sage.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna, he was a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, a friend of Kṛṣṇa. Perhaps you know it. So in the beginning he did not like to fight. He denied. So any devotee of God or Kṛṣṇa is not fond of war or fighting with any others. But if there is necessity, if Kṛṣṇa wants that fight, a devotee of Kṛṣṇa will accept such fight. If you think that your Vietnam fighting is ordered by Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right. If it is not, then it is not. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We act in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If Kṛṣṇa says, if God says, "This is right," we accept it right. If God says it is wrong, we accept it wrong. Because we think, we have poor fund of knowledge. We do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore if God says or Kṛṣṇa says this is right, we accept it right.
The primary principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement have been briefly described by my disciple Śrīman Brahmānanda Brahmacārī. It is a very important science of God, understanding what is God. Of course, in every religion this conception of God is there. Simply by understanding "God is great" is not sufficient. We must have knowledge about our relationship with God. Generally, we take it for granted that God is our order-supplier. We take it that God is great because He... That is also not the conception of the atheist class of men. Those who believe in God, generally they approach God in distress, when they're in need of money, and somebody wants to study what is God out of inquisitiveness, and somebody wants to understand the science of God. There are four classes of men. They are called persons with pious activities on the background. Without pious activities on the background, nobody is interested in the science of God. And those who are unfortunate or impelled by impious activities, they do not believe in God. They never care for God. And this class of men are always known as atheist class of men.
You do not know, because as you say you are here, here your coat is there, your pant is there, your hand is there, your body is there, but you cannot explain where you are. All right. Sit down. I shall explain. (laughter) This is the defect of modern education. We are educated in a way in which we have misunderstood, "This is my body. This is my hand. This is my leg. This is my country. This is my mother. This is my father. This is my school." "This is my," I know. I have the concept of "my." But who is conceiving "my"? We have no information where it is. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). Under misconception we understand my body as myself. I say, "It is my body," but I misidentify my body with myself. Is it not?
So the benefit will be that gradually you shall understand what you are. The whole civilization, modern civilization, is going on under a wrong impression that "I am this body." In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is said that "One who goes on with the concept of the body, he is no better than an ass or cow." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke... (SB 10.84.13). It is a very long verse. But actually we are not this body. So if we chant this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, then I can understand what I am. And as soon as I understand that I am not this body, then my activities become different, because at the present moment I am acting on the concept of my life as this body. Because this body is born of a particular place in a particular country, therefore I am saying that "I am American," or "Indian," or "China" or "German," due to this body. And because I have got relationship with some woman with this body, therefore I accept the woman as my wife. There are hundreds of thousands of women, but the woman who has got relationship with this body is my wife. There are thousands and millions of children, but one child who has got intimate relation with this body I call my son. So if the body falsely identified, then we can understand that our identification with this world is also false.
So similarly, everyone can understand that what I am? If you think yourself, if you meditate on yourself, if you see your hand, "Am I this hand?" you will say, "No, it is my hand." "Am I this leg?" You will say, "No, it is my leg." "Am I this head?" "No, it is my head." Then where you are? So that person who is thinking within that "It is my hand, it is my head, it is my leg, it is my pant, it is my coat," that you are. So have you seen that thing? You have seen your father, you have seen your mother or you have seen your son. But have you seen the real father who is within the body of the father? Have you seen the real son which is in the body of the son? No. Then your whole conception of education, your whole conception of living condition and problems—in the false world. Therefore this movement is required at the present moment in the world. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). This will cleanse the status of your mental condition. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. And as soon as you understand yourself, then the whole problem—social, political, economical—everything will be solved. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaṁ śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam. And gradually you shall realize your transcendental life. Your transcendental life is joyful.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. The police exists, but if you are not criminal it has nothing to do with you. You are not afraid of the police. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Police has nothing to do with law-abiding persons. Let the māyā remain there. You have nothing to do with her. Yes?
Guest: Swamijī, we always think of the pictures of Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa. There are, full of pictures, here, and also the usual pictures which you... When you think of the word "consciousness" and "life," as applied to the image of God, it seems to make sense. But how do you apply the concept of consciousness and life to a God conceived of in the terms like this image here?
Prabhupāda: Image... The image, we are not worshiping image.
Those who have accepted this body, for them, to think of something impersonal is simply artificial, is simply artificial. Therefore the impersonalists or the void philosophers, their process of so-called yoga is simply troublesome, and maybe some profit there, but the ultimate profit, they cannot have. It is not possible. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said that yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: (BG 6.47) "Of all the yogis, the one who is thinking of Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu..." Because that is the ultimate goal. One has to come to the point. That point, of course, one has to come ultimately, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19), after many, many births. It is simply obstinacy. One who does not take to the meditation of God, or they want to meditate in something other, void or impersonal—that is not possible; that is simply troublesome—so simply they are wasting time because ultimately they have come to this point of personal conception of the Supreme Lord. Bahūnāṁ janmanām, after many, many births, if they are fortunate enough to meet some real devotee, then he becomes enlightened. And vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). He then accepts Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, as everything. Sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ: "Such kind of great soul is very rare."
They think that as soon as there is annihilation of this material existence, that is the final goal. The Māyāvādī philosopher or the impersonalist, they think that not only to get freedom from this material existence, but to remain in spiritual status, jñānam, simply in the knowledge that "I am spirit soul. I am merged into the spirit soul," that is their goal. But here, the Sanātana Gosvāmī, he belongs to the Vaiṣṇava philosophy. He says, "Now what is my duty?" That means after liberation it is not that everything is void or activity is stopped. No. Actually activity begins after liberation. At the present moment our activities are not liberated activities. At the present moment all our activities are conditional, but actually I am not... Because I am spirit soul, therefore I'm not under material condition. But somehow or other, I am now put into material conditions. This is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). When one is actually liberated, brahma-bhūtaḥ, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. When one is not liberated he's called jīva-bhūtaḥ. Just like we are, ordinary living entities, we are under designations, and in the concept of this body, we are thinking everything. But actually I am not this body. I am not matter. I am a spirit soul. When this understanding comes, that is the point of liberation. And after that liberation, actual duty begins. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā also.
So we have to take the examples of great personalities, we have to study authorized books and Vedas, and we have to follow their example; then Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God realization or God consciousness is not difficult. It is very easy. There is no, I mean to say, any stumbling block on the path of your understanding what is God. Everything is there. The Bhagavad-gītā is there, the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata is there. Even you accept, your Bible is there, the Koran is there, everywhere. Without God, there cannot be any book or scripture. Nowadays, of course, they are manufacturing so many things. But in any human society the conception of God is there—according to time, according to the people, but the idea is there. Now you have to understand, jijñāsā. Therefore Vedānta-sūtra says that you try to understand God by inquiry, inquiry. This inquiry is very important. In our process, ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma pṛcchāt. One has to accept a bona fide spiritual master and he has to inquire from him, sad-dharma pṛcchāt. Similarly, in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also says that jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. "One who is inquisitive to understand the Absolute Truth, he requires a spiritual master." Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). Jijñāsuḥ means inquisitive, one who inquires. Inquiry is natural.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead takes pleasure when He's addressed with His devotee's name, with His energy's name. Devotee's also His energy. So He has no father. He is father of everyone. But He accepts some devotee. A devotee wants Kṛṣṇa as his son; therefore Kṛṣṇa accepts a devotee as His father. So nobody can become His father but a devotee... Just like this girl, Nandarāṇī, is raising her daughter, always giving service. The child is accepting service from the parents. Her business is only to accept. Torture and accept service. So devotees accept Kṛṣṇa as son so that Kṛṣṇa may simply torture them and accept service. That is the policy. Because the devotee want to render service, so this is the best way of service rendering. The child will draw always service. So this conception, fatherhood of the Absolute Truth, of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is undoubtedly very good, but there is no service. Father is meant for exacting: "Father, give me this. Father, give me this." And here, the Vaiṣṇava conception, to accept the Supreme as child to render service. Not to accept. No parents accept any service from the child, but he simply gives service.
Even there is greenness... There is so many things varieties. There is color display, sometimes a dark red, sometimes it is light red. So nicely created by Kṛṣṇa, and I shall say it is false? Why it is false? It is Kṛṣṇa's creation. Let me take it and offer it to Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti. This is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I don't enjoy it; it is Kṛṣṇa's creation. It must be offered to Kṛṣṇa. And after offering to Kṛṣṇa, you'll enjoy. After offering nice prasāda, Kṛṣṇa is full, Kṛṣṇa is not eating. You'll enjoy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Don't reject anything. This tape recorder we don't reject. We don't say, "Oh, it is material. We shall not touch." Bring any scientific invention, we shall engage in the service of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. (laughter) We don't say it is false. Why? You have applied your brain, you applied your energy to invent such nice machine. Let it be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Your life will be successful. That's all. The flower from... The tree from which this flower is grown, if this flower is offered to Kṛṣṇa, his life is successful. So it is so nice program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All round successful. There is no comparison with this program, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There cannot be any comparison, neither any rivalry with this conception of philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So try to understand, preach it nicely, and be happy, and let them become happy. So you want to chant something or no?
He cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness or God consciousness. He's limited within certain boundary. So Bhāgavata says Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for persons who are limited by certain boundary, including universal concept of life. That is also boundary. And matir na kṛṣṇe svataḥ. Svataḥ means by his personal mental speculation. Just like many philosophers are thinking to reach the Absolute Truth beyond this limitation. That is called svataḥ, by personal speculation. Svataḥ, parataḥ. Parataḥ means from authorities. From a spiritual master, from scriptures, from authoritative books, authoritative source of knowledge, that is called parataḥ. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho. Mitho means by great assembly. Just like the United Nation is trying to solve the problem for the last many years, twenty to twenty-five years, all the nations. This is called mithaḥ, assembly. Mithaḥ means assembly. So why it is not possible? Because they are limited. Their real concept is that "I am this body, I am this nation, I am this this, I am this, I am that." That's all. The basic principle is wrong. Therefore it is not possible to make a solution of the problems, either by personal speculation or by receiving knowledge.
So he'll not be able to capture parataḥ. Similarly, if you go to the assembly like United Nation or Commonwealth conference, like that, but if you keep yourself that "I am this, I am this, I am this," there is no possibility; therefore they are failing. The basic principle is wrong. Gṛha-vrata. The concept of life is wrong. Gṛha-vratānām. And why they want to be limited by this poor concept of life? This is called material existence. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). This limited concept of life is due to unbridled sense. This limited concept of life they want to keep because they want to satisfy their senses. I am going to the assembly, United Nation, but I am keeping myself as American or as German, as Russian, or Indian, that "My nation shall be happy in this way." Indian is thinking in that way, American is thinking that way, Russian is thinking in another way, another way. They are keeping themself in that limited area, and what benefit they will derive simply by wasting time in the assembly and talking? This is called gṛha-vratānām.
So one has to go outside this limited area. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Then they'll have real Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Matir na kṛṣṇe parato svato. So why I want that I shall be happy in this way? I make my own plan: "My nation will be happy in this way." This is called saṁsāra, adānta-gobhir, because I want to satisfy my senses. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram. And the position is punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). Punaḥ punaś carvita-car..., carvita-carvaṇa means chewing the chewed.
So Bhāgavata says Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not possible for persons who are limited by certain boundary, including universal concept of life. That is also boundary. And matir na kṛṣṇe svataḥ. Svataḥ means by his personal mental speculation. Just like many philosophers are thinking to reach the Absolute Truth beyond this limitation. That is called svataḥ, by personal speculation. Svataḥ, parataḥ. Parataḥ means from authorities. From a spiritual master, from scriptures, from authoritative books, authoritative source of knowledge, that is called parataḥ. Matir na kṛṣṇe parataḥ svato vā mitho. Mitho means by great assembly. Just like the United Nation is trying to solve the problem for the last many years, twenty to twenty-five years, all the nations. This is called mithaḥ, assembly. Mithaḥ means assembly. So why it is not possible? Because they are limited. Their real concept is that "I am this body, I am this nation, I am this this, I am this, I am that." That's all. The basic principle is wrong. Therefore it is not possible to make a solution of the problems, either by personal speculation or by receiving knowledge.
Just like our principle is to receive knowledge from the spiritual master. But if I keep myself within this boundary... Suppose if somebody thinks that "I am American," then naturally he'll be inclined, "Oh, why shall I be inclined to hear from a spiritual master who is Indian, who is Hindu?" So he'll not be able to capture parataḥ. Similarly, if you go to the assembly like United Nation or Commonwealth conference, like that, but if you keep yourself that "I am this, I am this, I am this," there is no possibility; therefore they are failing. The basic principle is wrong. Gṛha-vrata. The concept of life is wrong. Gṛha-vratānām. And why they want to be limited by this poor concept of life? This is called material existence. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). This limited concept of life is due to unbridled sense. This limited concept of life they want to keep because they want to satisfy their senses. I am going to the assembly, United Nation, but I am keeping myself as American or as German, as Russian, or Indian, that "My nation shall be happy in this way." Indian is thinking in that way, American is thinking that way, Russian is thinking in another way, another way. They are keeping themself in that limited area, and what benefit they will derive simply by wasting time in the assembly and talking? This is called gṛha-vratānām.
Guest: The basic concept that you are preaching and teaching is the same as the basic content of Christianity, of Buddhism. And if the people of the world would accept this basic principle, there would be no wars and there would be no fighting amongst one another and no disagreement. Because the basic and the fundamental is love.
Prabhupāda: But the thing is...
Guest: If we had that love we would then be united with God. That is our ultimate end.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, you are already united with God because your relationship cannot be rejected with God. Just like father and son. The son may forget his father. That does not mean the relationship of father and son is no more there. So our relationship is there with God, but we have forgotten. So we have to revive our consciousness. It is not that it has to be manufactured something new. The relationship is there. Just like a son, he has forgotten his father. He is very rich man's son, but he's loitering in the street, and he does not know. Just like there is a story of Tarzan. So we are all Tarzans. So we have forgotten, you see? So the whole process is to revive. That is called ahaṁ brahmāsmi. "Oh, I am the son of God.
This age is called, according to the Vedic language, Kali. Kali-yuga means the age of disagreement and dissension. So in the Vedas it is recommended that kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇu (SB 12.3.52). In the Golden Age... Of course, the kṛte, the Sanskrit word, exactly there is no English translation, but generally we have got a conception of Golden Age. So take it for granted that kṛte, kṛte means in the age when everyone was pure. Cent percent, people were pure. That is called Kṛta-yuga. The next yuga is called Tretā, when seventy-five percent of the people, they were pure, and twenty-five percent were not pure. And then Dvāpara. Dvāpara means fifty percent-fifty percent pure and fifty percent nonpure. Then this age is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means seventy-five percent or more than seventy-five percent, they are impure, and twenty-five percent, I mean to say, that is in book, but actually ninety percent or more than that are impure and maybe five percent pure. This is the situation of this age. And they are also living very short time. In this age, life, duration of life, is reduced, memory is reduced, man's compassion is also reduced. Similarly, there are so many things, they are reduced. Although we are thinking that we are advancing, but actually the most important things we are reduced.
So impersonal Brahman is mentioned in all Vedic literature. We also know that. But beyond impersonal Brahman there is Supersoul realization, and beyond Supersoul realization there is the personal realization, the Supreme Personality of God. Bhāgavata says that vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam: (SB 1.2.11) "The Absolute knowledge, the Absolute Truth, is nondual." How it is nondual? Now, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Either you realize the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman or localized Paramātmā, Supersoul, or as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, they are one and the same. How one and the same? That is also explained. So God realization, it is said in the Vedic literatures, that avāṅ-manasā-gocaraḥ. It is very difficult to realize God. He is beyond our mental speculational field; He is beyond our conception, beyond our words. But there is other verses also, that athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi, jānāti tattvam (SB 10.14.29). One can understand what is God by the mercy of God, not by mental speculation. It is not possible. We have got very limited scope of knowledge.
"The śānti, peace, real peace, can be achieved simply by understanding that God is the proprietor and God is the enjoyer of everything—that conception." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram. And suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "And He is the friend, most intimate friend, well-wisher friend of everyone." And He is seated with everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: (BG 18.61) "My dear Arjuna, the Supreme Lord is seated with every living entity." So according to Vedic literature, Upaniṣad, we understand that the Supreme Lord, in His localized aspect, He is all-pervading. He is present everywhere. Not only that He is present in the church, but He is outside church, everywhere. It is stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayān..., "He is present even within the atom." That is omnipresence. So He is present within you. It is not that you have to search out God anywhere else, but you can search out within yourself. And that searching process is called yoga. Our this subject matter today is yoga. That means to search out your self. Meditation means you have to meditate upon what you are. Are you this body? Are you this finger? Are you this head? You analyze one after another.
Just like by electric energy you have got heater, at the same time, cooler also. The energy is one, but in one place it is utilized for heating; in another place it is utilized as cooling. Similarly, this, er... Take the energy of sunlight. The sunlight is one, but by the sunlight some flowers are becoming red, some flowers are becoming blue, the leaves are becoming green. So everything is due to the same energy, sunlight, but the variety is there. Variety is there. So energy may be one. Just like in your country, by electric energy you are working in so many ways. So do not, I mean to say, make minus all these varieties, the energy in diverse varieties. Therefore the whole conception is, Brahman conception is, that unity in diversity. Everything is working by the energy of the Supreme Brahman, and in the energy we have got different diversities. So we cannot neglect the diversities, although the energy is one.
Ātmā means soul, your self. We are, every one of us, hankering after that peace and tranquillity. How it is possible? Bhāgavata says, yayātmā suprasīdati. Suprasīdati means completely becomes satisfied. How it is possible? Now, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ: "That is the first-class occupational duty by which you develop your love of God." That is first class. The test of religion... Every religion has got some conception of God. That's all right. But if by following the principles of that religion, if you see that you are developing your love for God, then that is first class. Otherwise, Bhāgavata says, it is simply wasting time laboring.
Prabhupāda: But do you distinguish between sunshine and the sun planet? Or you say because the sunshine has come within your room, therefore sun planet has come within your room? Do you think like that?
Guest (3): It is a conception of the mind.
Prabhupāda: Why mind? It is a fact. Why do you say "mind"? Can you say that "Oh, because the sunshine has come within my room, the sun planet has come"? Everyone will say you are a fool. It is not mind. It is a fact. The sunshine is light, and the sun globe is light. So light is there, both, but still, there is difference between sunshine and the sun globe.
So devotional service begins from the stage of liberation, when one is freed from the concept of bodily life, from this wrong concept that "I am this body." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Teachings of Bhagavad-gītā begins from that. Kṛṣṇa wanted to teach Arjuna in the beginning, first of all, that "You are not this body." He was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was asking him to fight, and he was placing so many pleas that "If I fight, my family will die and the women will be widows. They will be polluted." So many arguments he placed. That means Arjuna was identifying himself with this body. And Kṛṣṇa, when Arjuna submitted to Kṛṣṇa that "I am now puzzled, bewildered. I cannot understand what is my duty at the present moment; therefore I am submitting unto You," śiṣyas te 'ham: (BG 2.7) "I become Your disciple." Śādhi māṁ prapannam: "I am surrendered unto You. You please instruct me." So because they were talking like friends in the beginning, so argument like friends, talking, that cannot give any conclusion. Here is the Vedic process. Just like Arjuna said that śādhi māṁ prapannam, śiṣyas te 'ham: "I become your śiṣya." Śiṣya means disciple.
What is the Absolute Truth? That it is stated, Absolute... Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam (SB 1.2.11). "Those who are actually in knowledge of the Absolute Truth, they speak of the Absolute Truth in this way." What is that? Advaya-jñānam: nondual. There is no duality. Although there is variety, but there is no duality. Here in the material world, as soon as there is variety, there is duality. But in the spiritual world, there is variety, but there is no duality. How is that? There is crude example. Many, you can try to understand. Just like this sun. You are seeing every day, sun. Now the sun means there are three divisions: the sunlight, sunshine; the sun globe; and the sun deity. Don't think in the sun planet there is no living entities. That is a wrong conception. As in this planet there are living entities, similarly, in the sun planet also, there are living entities, but their bodies are differently constructed. Just like your body is differently constructed. You cannot remain in the water. But the fishes, the aquatics, they can remain in the water. It is the question of construction of the body. But you cannot say that "Because I cannot live in the water, therefore nobody can live in the water." That is nonsense.
So if you identify yourself with this body, then there is no need of meditation because body, you are actually seeing—this is body. No meditation means that you have to transcend the bodily platform, the mental platform, the intellectual platform. Then you find out what is the "I." That is meditation. But fortunately we get information directly. Instead of searching out what you are, what is your position, what is this "I," you get direct information from Kṛṣṇa. What is that? Kṛṣṇa says that "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel." So as part and parcel, you may claim as God. How is that? Just like this whole body. Now, the finger, which is the part and parcel of this body, can be said also "body." But the finger is not the whole body. A finger, if it claims that "I am the whole body," then it is wrong conception. But if the finger claims that "I am body," there is no wrong. Finger is... Because it is part and parcel of bo..., this body, whole body, therefore it is also body. Just like part and parcel of gold is also gold—it is not different from gold—similarly, I, individual I, I am the part and parcel of the Supreme "I," Kṛṣṇa. That is the real philosophy. And as soon as you understand that you are part and parcel of the Supreme, then your function is also immediately fixed up. What is that? Now, this part and parcel of this body is the finger, or anything you take.
One way is that this chanting, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Very simple thing. Everyone can join: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. By chanting this movement, by the vibration, gradually one's heart, which is so contaminated that he is denying the existence of God, will be gradually simplified or clarified. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Just like the mirror, when it is overcast with dust, you cannot see your face nicely. But if you clear the dust you can see clearly. Similarly, our, this disease, denial of God, or "God is dead," "There is no God," "I am God," "You are God," such kinds of conception is due to covering of material dust on the mirror of our heart. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If you simply chant this transcendental vibration, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare, you don't require any qualification and you don't require that you have to become intellectual man or an administrator or a productive man or... Never mind whatever you are. You be situated in your place, but you try to chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare. The result will be that your heart, the dust on the mirror of your heart, will be gradually cleansed. And when it is completely cleansed, then you will understand that you are not this body. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaṁ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam (CC Antya 20.12).
So we have to follow the mahājanas, great personalities or a great devotee like Caitanya Mahā..., that "I am also the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is our real identity. This is called mukti, liberation. As soon as we understand that "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Kṛṣṇa," this identification is ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am not this." Brahmāsmi, this concept of life, that "I do not belong to this material world. I am Brahman. I am spirit soul..." So without being spirit soul, how we can become servant of the supreme spirit? Just like without being fire, you cannot remain in the fire, similarly, without becoming Brahman, how we can serve the Supreme Brahman? So this is Brahman realization. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). Now, after being purified, what is your position? Not that you become imperson. There are philosophers, that when one becomes identified with Brahman, he becomes immediately imperson. No. We keep our personality. We are never imperson. All of us are individuals. Kṛṣṇa is individual. We are sitting here. We are all individual.
Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you very much for your (indistinct) in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This movement is especially meant for human society who are serious about fulfillment of the mission of this life. There is a distinction between human life and animal life. Animal life means one who does not know who is the proprietor of the body. Those who are under the concept of this material body as self, they are as good as animal. But the..., in the human form of life one can distinguish that one is not this material body but he is a separate identity, spiritual in value. We can understand this fact if we give little attention to it, that we are changing our different body since the beginning of our life. We learn from Vedic literature that after sexual intercourse of the male and female, if it is fruitful, then the living entity is injected in the emulsion of the two secretion and in the first night it takes the shapes of a pea. And because the living entity is there, it grows gradually, and then nine holes evolve, which are later on developed into two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and one rectum, one genital, like that.
What is the difference between you and animal? You eat; the animal eats. You sleep; the animal sleeps. You have sex life; the animal has sex life. You also try to defend yourself and the animal also tries to defend himself. So āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca, eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, these four principles, bodily demand, are similar to the animal and to the man. So why the animals should be denied nationality? It is not that because they are less intelligent they should be denied nationality. No. Just like a father has got four boys. Not that everyone is of the same intelligence. But does the father give less protection to the less intelligent son? No. The protection, the family protection, is equal for everyone.
These are the conception, bhāgavata community, equal right to everyone, even to the animals. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ, learned. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is fully learned, paṇḍita. So what is the symptom of a paṇḍita, learned man? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
- brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
- śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
- paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
- (BG 5.18)
So bhakti-yoga is the sublime religious principle of the human society. The human society is not human society without sense of religious principle. Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the distinction of human society and animal. In the animal society, there is no religion. But in the human society, may be in any part of the world, there is some concept of religion, may be Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, Buddha's religion, Jewish religion, and so many others. But according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, there is a test of religion. The test of religion is how much one has advanced in his love for God.
- sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
- yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
- ahaituky apratihatā
- yayātmā suprasīdati
- (SB 1.2.6)
Religion means you must have peace of mind, tranquillity. That is religion. It is not a formality or dogmas. It is the ultimate goal of life.
Govinda, the Lord. Go means the cow, and go means the senses, and go means the land. So Kṛṣṇa, the reservoir of all pleasure, especially gives pleasure to the senses. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. So our senses are there. You cannot stop the activities of the senses. Yoga indriya saṁyama. The purpose of yoga is to control the senses by observing the regulative principle, yama-niyama, then practicing a particular type of sitting posture. It is somehow or other mechanical, because those who are grossly in the concept of body, they are recommended to practice this haṭha-yoga so that by this process his mind can be concentrated on Kṛṣṇa. Yoga indriya saṁyama.
Guest (3): Your Divine Grace, we can know something about God, either through our sense knowledge or true concept, etc., but how do we know God, if I can make that distinction? You know? God isn't something that can be sensed and He isn't something that can be grasped by the finite mind. The infinite, as you said... But how do we know God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is unapproachable by your mental concoction. But there is another process: if you understand God by this the paramparā system. Just like on this roof there is some sound, and every one of us making some suggestion what is the sound: "This may be like this. This may be like that. This may be like that." This is one process of knowledge, to understand the unseen by speculation. This is one. It may be successful or may not be successful. There is no certainty. But if somebody from the roof says, "The sound is due to this," then our knowledge is perfect. Similarly, if we speculate about God, who is Adhokṣaja, who is beyond the range of our mind and speculation, then it is very... Then we can come to the conclusion of Brahman realization, impersonal God, no more than. But if we hear from God or His representative, then we get perfect knowledge of God.
Just like here also, if we say, "I don't care for the government." Then what will be? So treason act. I'll be arrested, I'll be punished. Similarly, living entities are originally part and parcel of God. Just like father and son. The Christian people also understand, God is Supreme Father and we are all His sons. You go to church and pray, "God, give us our daily bread." Father. So that is conception in Bhagavad-gītā also. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am father of all living entities." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā.
- sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
- sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ
- tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma
- ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
- (BG 14.4)
In all varieties of species of life... There are 8,400,000 species of life. The aquatics, the trees, the plants, the birds, the bees, the insects... Then human beings. And out of the human beings also, there are so many uncivilized. Civilized human beings are very few. And out of the civilized human beings, very few take to religious life. Very few. And out of these so-called religious human society, most of them, they simply designate, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," but they do not know about religion.
He is the seed-giving father for all living entities. So Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Don't think that Kṛṣṇa, as it is stated in your English dictionary, "Kṛṣṇa is a Hindu God." He's not Hindu, He's not Muslim, or He's not Christian. He's God. God is neither Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian. It is bodily designations, "I am Hindu, you are Christian." This is bodily... Just like dress. You have got some black coat. Another has got some white coat. That does not meant we are different because we are in different coat or shirt. As human being, we are all sons of God. We are one. That is the conception. So at the present moment, we have divided the world on account of this shirt and coat. That is not. That is not good. Actually, the whole world or the whole universe belongs to God. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā,
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
There are leading men in every society—in government post and educational institution, in business, and so many other fields. In every field of activity, there are leading men. That is natural. And in the Vedas we understand the supreme leading person is God. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Leaders must be accepted. Just like father is necessary, similarly, leader is also necessary. Guru is also necessary. So according to Vedic verse, Vedic version, we can understand that the supreme leader is Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, God, a person. The conception of Absolute Truth, as given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate: (SB 1.2.11) "The Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision—as the impersonal Brahman, the localized Paramātmā and the Supreme Personality of Godhead." The, this Bhagavān, this word, is used at the end in the matter of describing the nature of Absolute Truth.
"With the progress, advancement of this Kali-yuga, these following items..." What is that? Now, dharma. First thing is dharma. People will decrease in the conception of dharma, religion. Religion. Religion does not mean a kind of faith. Religion, as I, I think, the other day I described here, the characteristic, the characteristic of the human being, of the living being—to serve. Actually, we are serving, every one of us. We are serving somebody. So everyone is serving. That is his characteristic. Just like a person now, today, is Hindu. Tomorrow he changes his faith, but the service continues. He cannot change the characteristic of service. You may be Hindu or you may be Mussulman, or you may be Christian—you must be serving somebody. Or maybe... Not maybe; actually—who is superior to you. This is called dharma. According our Vedic principles, the dharma is the principle given by God. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). You cannot manufacture dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, He's giving you dharma, what is dharma. He advents, He appears: yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). He says, "When there is discrepancies in the principles of dharma, then I appear, I advent Myself."
It is not working. (break) ...eternal soul is there in the Bhagavad-gītā that... That I have already explained. Asmin dehe, in this body there is the proprietor of the body. This is conception of soul. Just like whenever we see some apartment or house we can understand that there is a resident or proprietor of this house. Similarly, we can understand, this body, there is some proprietor within this body. Therefore the body is working. If we see one house, nicely cleansed, there is light and everything is in order, we can understand there is resident. Similarly, when the proprietor of the body is there, the body is healthy... (break) ...That is the conception of existence of the soul. Nobody can deny it. (break)
...as soul without the body means ghost. Yes, that's a fact. Ghost means he has got no gross body, but he's working with the subtle body. We have got two kinds of bodies. The gross body is made of five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky. And the subtle body is made of intelligence, mind and ego. So when a soul does not get a gross body, he has to work with the subtle body, that is ghostly life. So ghostly life is not false. Those who are too, too much sinful, sometimes they are condemned not to get a gross body. Just like if a man commits suicide. So nature gave him this gross body. He misused it. Therefore he's punished sometimes not to get again gross body. He becomes ghost.
There are different planetary system, and in each and every planetary system, there are different types of living beings or human beings. As we have got on this planet different parts of the world, different parts of this globe, we have got different types of persons. We are talking of persons only, human being. Other living entities we are not taking into consideration. Because the dharma is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Religious system is there in the human society. Any civilized human society there is a system of religion—it doesn't matter what is that religion. That is civilized human civilization. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. In the human society, in the civilized human society, if there is no conception of God, if there is no conception of God's order or God's law, that is not human society; that is animal society. The cats and dogs or other animals, big, big animals, they have no sense what is the law of God, what is God, how to execute that. That is not expected there. Take, for example, in your country, the law is "Keep to the left" while you drive your car. That is the order of the state. But if you do not obey the state order, instead of driving on the left side, if you drive on the right side, you immediately become a criminal, punishable. But the same right and left consideration, if a dog or a cat or a cow violates, instead of going on the left side, if he passes—he has no fault. He's animal. He's animal.
Just like you are the coat and shirt, you are the proprietor of the coat and shirt. Similarly, this body is also covering. The subtle body and the gross body—coat and shirt. But we are different from this coat and shirt. That is the beginning of the instruction. It is going on, and again Arjuna is asking that prakṛtiṁ puruṣaṁ caiva kṣetraṁ kṣetra-jñam eva ca etad veditum icchāmi. He's student. "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, I want to understand what is this material nature and puruṣam." Purusaṁ means enjoyer, and prakṛti means enjoyed. Just like we have got little conception, male and female. So prakṛti means the female, the object of enjoyment, and puruṣa means the enjoyer. So here, although we are dressed in different way, male or female, everyone is trying to enjoy. Therefore even a woman is just like woman, his feature is woman's body. Actually, she is trying to enjoy; therefore, she is puruṣa. Puruṣa means enjoyer. So here in this material world, either male or female, it doesn't matter—everyone is trying to enjoy; therefore he is called puruṣa, or the living entity is called puruṣa.
Prabhupāda: Brahman.
Guest: Brahman. Which is the relation between these concepts? They are, according to your commentaries, in Bhagavad-gītā, different. But what is...
Prabhupāda: No. It is not different. Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. The Absolute Truth is one, but He is realized by different persons differently. Just like there is a big hill. So from very distant place you see that hill just like something like cloud. But if you go forward, then you see something green. And if you go actually to the hill, you see there are so many trees, so many houses, so many living entities. The object is the same, but realization from different angle of vision is different. That is the description of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The Absolute Truth is called tattva. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam (SB 1.2.11). When I see the hill as a cloud, it is the same hill. When I see the hill as something green, that is the same hill. And when I see the hill actually, it is functioning, there are so many trees, so many animals, so many men, so many houses, this same hill. Similarly, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān is the same thing, but it appears different according to persons' different realization. But ultimately, the Absolute Truth is Bhagavān, Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that He is different.
Guest: In which we..., way do you use the concept of personality?
Prabhupāda: He is person. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. In the Second Chapter He says, "My dear Arjuna, I, you, and all these persons who assembled, it is not that we were not existing in the past, it is not that that we shall not exist in the future." When He says "I, you and all these persons," they are all persons. God is also person, Arjuna is also person, and the all other who assembled in the battlefield, they are also persons. So Kṛṣṇa says, "All these persons, they were existing in the past, now they are existing, and in future they will exist." So there is past, present, future. In no time, God is impersonal, neither we are impersonal. We are also personal. And that is also confirmed, nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān, Kaṭha Upaniṣad (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), that He is the chief person amongst other persons. We living entities, we are many persons, and God is the chief person. And what is the difference between this person and that person, the singular number person, one, and the plural number person, many? That is explained: eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one singular number person is supplying all the necessities of these different plural persons. That is the distinction. These things are expressed in Upaniṣad, Vedānta-sūtra. So ultimately, God is person.
...because it is full of cheating, full of mistake, full of illusion, imperfectness, then how you can understand the thing or the person who is beyond your perception? That is not possible. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yojayet. This is Vedic instruction, that "Things which are beyond your perception, don't try to understand by this foolish argument and logic." Don't try to understand. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā. Acintya means beyond your conception. Cintya means within you perception, and acintya means beyond your conception. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa. You cannot understand by this rascal logic and philosophy. That is not possible. Then how it is to be understood? There are many places. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ (CC Madhya 17.136). These blunt senses, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's name, Kṛṣṇa's form, Kṛṣṇa's qualities, Kṛṣṇa's activities—you cannot understand. Then I have got this... This is my, in possession. How can I understand Kṛṣṇa? That is said, sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you engage your tongue in the service of the Lord. Now, this is also another peculiar thing, that to understand by the tongue, not by the mind. Tongue. Tongue means we have got two businesses we perform with the tongue. One is tasting foodstuff and vibrating voice. So you use the tongue vibrating Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam-bas. Then you understand Kṛṣṇa. You don't understand, but He reveals.
Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses—he likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Kṛṣṇa? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that.
If you have read Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, you can see that Kṛṣṇa was not born. Kṛṣṇa appeared before Devakī and Vasudeva as four-handed Nārāyaṇa. Then the father, mother requested Nārāyaṇa that "You have appeared as Nārāyaṇa. Immediately Kaṁsa will kill You. Please, You become like human child." So He again immediately became a human child. So the conception of birth from the womb of the mother was not actually the fact about Kṛṣṇa. You read Bhāgavatam. You will find this description. So even though if He comes as a child, still He is unborn because Kṛṣṇa, or God, is in everyone's heart. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). So from the heart, if He comes before you, so is it very difficult task for Him? It is not at all difficult. (break) What to speak of Kṛṣṇa, we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa; we do not take birth. You will find in the Bhagavad-gītā, na jāyate na mriyate vā. When the description of soul is given there, it is said that the soul is never born. If the soul is never born, how the Supersoul is born? That you have to understand. Even the soul... We are ordinary soul. We are not..., also not born. Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit: "At any time." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So we have to study this.
They are poor because they have no spiritual conception of life. So that situation is always existing; therefore it is the duty of the leaders of the society, especially of the brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas, to take sannyāsa and preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the mass of people. Dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau. Now we have got experience that many big, big leaders in political field... We have seen this noncooperation movement. They also took sannyāsa practically. But they could not live long because they could not tolerate the position of renouncement. But about the Gosvāmīs it is said,
- tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tuccha-vat
- bhūtvā dīna-gaṇeśakau karuṇayā kaupīna-kanthāśritau
- gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī-kallola-magnau muhur
- vande rūpa-sanātanau raghu-yugau...
Departure Talks
So just imagine God's creation. It is inconceivable by us, but we can learn it by śravaṇam. That is the only way. We, even in this material world, in this universe, we have heard of so many planets, but it is not possible to go and see. They cannot go even in the moon planet, and still, they are very much proud of their advancement of knowledge. So we cannot understand even. But if we patiently hear from the right source, then we can, may have some..., we may have some conception. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says, paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20). Bhāvaḥ, or svabhāvaḥ, or nature, there is another nature. So we have to hear. By hearing... This is the beginning of bhakti, śravaṇam. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ. We have to hear, and after hearing, we have to repeat. That is called kīrtanam. So in this way there are nine different processes, you know. Navadhā bhakti.
- śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ
- smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam
- arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ
- sakhyam ātma-nivedanam
- (SB 7.5.23)
Philosophy Discussions
Prabhupāda: This is the prime truth. The method of devotional service and other ideas, they are included, but the basic principle is devotional service.
Śyāmasundara: For instance, Leibnitz says that concepts of mathematics are necessary truths, like "Two plus two is equal to four." Someone is born with that knowledge.
Prabhupāda: So this is also mathematical truth. Because even the aborigines, they also offer obeisances to thunderbolt. As soon as there is some sound of thunderbolt, or as soon as there is earthquake, they offer obeisances—any big natural phenomena. That means the devotion is there, but that devotional service is misplaces so long as one does not reach God.
Śyāmasundara: Leibnitz states that there is nothing in the intellect which was not previously in the senses except the intellect itself. In other words, all of our knowledge comes through our senses except the fact...
Prabhupāda: And it is banked in the intellect. That is a fact. That is permanent. Therefore even if we change our body, still we can find out our means of living by that inherent intellect. That is advertised as intuition. But this intuition is previous experience only. (end)
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Still it is authority. Public opinion, he says, or without public opinion, the king or royalty. There must be some authority to guide them. Otherwise there will be chaos.
Śyāmasundara: As far as his philosophy of religion, he rejected the idea of absolute matter and the concept of a soul as substance. He rejected the utility of scientific laws, and he rejected moral principles as objective realities. He says all religious ideas are relative. There is no certainty and anything religious may be merely probable but never certain.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That also he says. Therefore religion means love of God. The means may be different in different processes of religion, but ultimately if one develops love of Godhead, that is the prima facie factor, love of God. So if any religious principle love of God is absent, that is simply show, it is not factual religion.
Śyāmasundara: He says that even the idea of God is merely probable but not certain.
Prabhupāda: That he cannot say. As soon as he speaks of authority, there must be a supreme authority. That is God.
Prabhupāda: Everyone believes that. Materially everyone believes. But if he says none of them are correct, so why he is so..., pose himself as correct? He is rejected immediately.
Hayagrīva: He says, "All the new discoveries in astronomy which prove the immense grandeur and magnificence of the works of nature are so many additional arguments for a Deity according to the true system of theism," that is his natural, what he calls natural religion. In this way Hume rejects the necessity or desirability of miracles as well as the conception of a God transcendental to his creation. He says it's not the being of God that is in question but God's nature. This nature cannot be ascertained through study of the universe itself. However, if the universe can only be studied by imperfect senses, what is the value of our conclusion? How can we ever come to know the nature of God?
Prabhupāda: Nature of God, it can be explained by God Himself. That is our Vedic process. We know who is God, and He explains, "My nature is this." Just like He says, "I am the greatest principle," mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). "There is no more higher principle than Me." This is fact. If something is greater than God, then how one can become God? That is not possible. So greatest means He is great in everything. He is great in richness, He is great in reputation, He is great in influence, He is great in bodily power, He is great in beauty and He is great in renunciation. If we can find out somebody that He tallies with this greatness, then He is God. So that we find in Kṛṣṇa; therefore Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, and what He says in the Bhagavad-gītā we accept as fact.
Hayagrīva: "Each disputant triumphs in his turn while he carries on an offensive war and exposes the absurdities, barbarities and pernicious tenets of his antagonists. But all of them," that is, all of the religions, "on the whole, prepare a complete triumph for the skeptic who tells them that no system ought ever to be embraced. A total suspense of judgment is here our only reasonable recourse."
Prabhupāda: No. Our principle is to know God from God, and religion means the principles given by God. Just like the law means the principle given by the state, similarly the principles given by God, that is religion. Otherwise it is pseudoreligion. If there is no conception of God, there is no direction of God, that is not religion. Religion is not a kind of blind faith. Religion is factual. That factual religion can be given by God Himself, and if we know God and what is His instruction, then we are religious.
Hayagrīva: Well, he believes that religion is necessary. He says religion, however corrupted, is still better than no religion at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also agree. But religion without philosophy, logic, it is sentiment. That will not help us. So just like religion given by Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me." So if you think of God always, so that is good for us, we become purified. So this is religion. We have to meditate upon God, think about God.
Hayagrīva: Well, he believes that religion is necessary. He says religion, however corrupted, is still better than no religion at all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we also agree. But religion without philosophy, logic, it is sentiment. That will not help us. So just like religion given by Kṛṣṇa, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Always think of Me." So if you think of God always, so that is good for us, we become purified. So this is religion. We have to meditate upon God, think about God. Therefore temple worship, Deity worship is necessary so that we can constantly think of God. But if we do not know what is God, what is the form of God, how we can offer Him worship, how we can think of Him, then it is pseudoreligion. His type of religion will not help the follower. One must be definitely in understanding what is God and what does He speak and how to abide by His order. That is real religion.
Hayagrīva: His conception of religion is utilitarian and social.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: A posteriori means after; sense impressions. So he developed this process for attaining knowledge in three steps. The first step he calls he transcendental aesthetic, and this is the basic stage which synthesizes sense experience through concepts of time and space. In other words, the mind acts upon sensory perceptions and applies time and space relations to them. So he says that this knowing of time and space is a priori; it's an internal creation of the mind. Before we sense anything, we have an idea of time and space. So as soon as we sense something, we can apply time and space ideas.
Prabhupāda: He said something transcendental?
Śyāmasundara: He calls it the transcendental aesthetic.
Prabhupāda: Transcendental means it is not in my experience, but I get the experience from higher authority, paramparā.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is everything, outside and inside. Inside He is Paramātmā, outside He is spiritual master. So Kṛṣṇa is trying to help the conditioned soul both ways-outside and inside. Therefore spiritual master is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa comes outside as spiritual master, and inside He is personally there.
Śyāmasundara: So according to Kant, the first or basic stage is that one perceives objects and gives them concepts of time and space. Then the second step is called transcendental analytic. In other words, human understanding changes these perceptions into conceptions or ideas, which possess analytical unity. In other words, the mind applies categories to whatever it perceives. And there are four categories that he describes: quantity, quality, relationship and modality.
Prabhupāda: What is modality?
Śyāmasundara: Modality means whether it is possible or impossible; whether it is existent or nonexistent; whether it is necessary or dependent. Like that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Prabhupāda: Without fixed up conclusion, there is contradiction. Our fixed-up conclusion is that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes. How, one after another, the categories are developed, that is in the Vedic literature. But it is summarized that Kṛṣṇa desired or He put His glance over the material nature and the material nature became impregnated, and then He delivered so many things. Matter and spirit have combined together, and the whole cosmic manifestation has come into being.
Śyāmasundara: To go back to this idea of cause and effect, Kant says that just as time and space are a priori concepts or mental creations—in other words, before we have any sense experience, we still have an idea of time and space—just as this is so, so also cause and effect is a priori category of human understanding.
Prabhupāda: So a priori existence is there, time and space.
Śyāmasundara: Time and space, and cause and effect.
Prabhupāda: I take my birth and at a certain time time. So time was existing before my birth, and after my death time will continue to exist. Similarly, space. But, temporarily, I take some time. That is the duration of my life. Or I am occupying some space. This is temporary. Time and space are eternally there. At least time is eternally there, because space is also born in time.
Prabhupāda: Why in your mind? That is the law. When the temperature is reduced to a certain point, the water becomes frozen and becomes solid. That is the law. How can you say without law?
Śyāmasundara: But the concept of law is a mode of thought.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is imperfect human society. But nature's law, God's law, is not like that. Nature's law: just like fire burns; it burns everywhere. It is fact, perpetually. It is not that in certain cases it burns and in certain cases it does not. It burns. Even a child touches the fire, it will burn. No consideration. Just like in human law, a child steals and an adult steals. Court excuses, "He is a child. Let him be." But nature's law is not like that. The fire, whether adult touches or a child touches, it must burn. That is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: That is also true. We also accept. Nitya siddha kṛṣṇa bhakti. Our tendency to offer service to the Lord, that is natural. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that He is eternal servant; therefore that tendency should be natural. But it is some way or another covered by material ignorance.
Śyāmasundara: He says whereas sense perception cannot provide the information about the soul and about God, pure reason can penetrate into the unknowable and provide us with conceptions in order to grasp the whole of reality.
Prabhupāda: This is not very clear, that sense perception cannot reach soul. But he says that reason is beyond the senses.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that we can grasp conceptions of God and soul and reality through the use of pure reason.
Prabhupāda: How the reason is exercised?
Śyāmasundara: He comes to the conclusion that these ideals of perfect knowledge are set up, but they are unprovable and unknowable. We can never know any more than that, that there is God, there is soul, there is reality, but we cannot know anything more than that. We don't have any more information than that.
Prabhupāda: Anything cannot be known more than that by his personal attempt. But they can be known through a process which is called paramparā.
Hayagrīva: For him we cannot experience God through our senses.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. We always say that when God explains Himself, that is also not to everyone—only to the devotees. The devotees can accept the Personality of Godhead as He instructs. A nondevotee or atheist he cannot understand; he simply speculates. But by speculation it is not possible to understand God.
Hayagrīva: Kant says that speculative reason is unable to attain to a sure or adequate conception of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our..., that the speculator cannot reach vicinity of God. It is not possible. Athāpi te. Only one can understand by the mercy of God, and this mercy is bestowed upon a person who is devotee, who is surrendered to God. Otherwise this mercy is reserved, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ: (BG 7.25) "I am not revealed to everyone and anyone; rather, I am covered by yoga-māyā." Because revelation means when one becomes devotee this covering curtain is... What is called, curtain?
Devotee: Curtain.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hayagrīva: Curtain.
Prabhupāda: No, curtain closed and opened.
Śyāmasundara: They say an "image", everything is an image.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we say that, that the same example, just like mirage. Mirage, there is no water but we see a vast sea, or big river is flowing. It is like that. Actually there is no river. No. This is going. This material world is like that. Just Śrīdhara Swami (said that) due to the factual position of the spiritual world, this illusory world appears to be true. Because there is real table.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The table concept.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because there is a real table, therefore I am considering this table. This is not table, this is wood. Somebody (may say), "This is not wood, but it was tree." All right, it is tree. Then what? It is not tree, it is seed. All right it is seed. No, it is not seed, it (indistinct) You see. Therefore it is perverted reflection. But there is a real table.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: There is a real table. Therefore the whole material creation is a perverted reflection and people are enamored by it. People are taking, "This is real table. This is real body. This is real happiness. This is real country. This is real society."
Prabhupāda: Then he believes in incarnation? So, when there is son incarnation and God incarnation, which is better? Incarnation, He incarnates as son and He incarnates Himself.
Śyāmasundara: He maintains that God is an absolute idea, that he is pure conception.
Kīrtanānanda: Impersonal.
Prabhupāda: That means he has no clear idea of God. If God has got a son, then the father must be a person. Where is a son who is born out of imperson father? Where is the evidence?
Śyāmasundara: An idea, born out of an idea.
Prabhupāda: Idea. This is nonsense. If son is a person, his father must be a person.
Śyāmasundara: He says that in philosophy we approach closest to the absolute or God, whereas art is the form of the absolute.
Prabhupāda: Then his statement that Christianity is perfect, that is refuted.
Prabhupāda: He may think it. Everyone thinks that way, (that) his philosophy is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says that even higher than religion is philosophy because you can approach God through pure concept or thought, pure thought, and reach God.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā is combination of religion and philosophical thought.
Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy, knowledge of the absolute idea is unique because it is in and for itself, or is pure idea, that philosophy is pure idea.
Prabhupāda: That we say, that religion without philosophy is sentiment and philosophy without religion is mental speculation.
Śyāmasundara: But he wants to have philosophy without religion. He says that philosophy...
Prabhupāda: That is mental speculation. He says that above religion is philosophy. That means religion supported by philosophy is real religion. Religion supported by philosophy is real religion. Otherwise insufficient. It is same thing. That's all. Actually except Bhāgavata religion, all other religions in the world are sentiments. Therefore in Bhāgavata beginning is said, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitava, all cheating type of religion is kicked out from dharma. Projjhita, kicked out. Except Bhāgavata religion, any religion which is going on in the world, they're all cheating.
Śyāmasundara: The philosophy of Bhāgavata is not...
Prabhupāda: God-centered.
Śyāmasundara: But it's not purely conceptual, is it?
Prabhupāda: Well, it is religion in this sense that carrying out the order of God. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law means the law given by the state. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. That is religion.
Śyāmasundara: He says that philosophy is higher than religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you apply your philosophy. Then why... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You just surrender unto Me. This is religion. Now try to understand why Kṛṣṇa says that you surrender unto Me, and why we are obliged to surrender. That is philosophy, that is philosophy. And when your philosophy supports, "Yes, we have to surrender to Kṛṣṇa," then it is perfect, it is not sentiment.
Prabhupāda: Because he's Albert Einstein, he's not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: No, but he was able to conceptualize that the speed of light squared times the mass equals the energy of an object. And then he was able to experiment in the laboratory and actually find out that it was true. But no one told him that formula. He found it out through process of idealizing, ideas.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. That is, he is studying science. He is a scientist. You cannot say but he's scientist. He, just like the same you are seeing the mountain from a distance, you are seer. Now the more you make progress you see it is green, then more progress, "Oh, it is (indistinct)." The seer, because he is scientist, he is searching so he is making progress but all of a sudden a layman cannot see like that.
Śyāmasundara: No but doesn't he have an idea before he finds the substantial...
Prabhupāda: Then idea... Idea means, scientist means they see something, observation. That is called observation. So observation, in the beginning there may be hazy. Just like two scientists, Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose and Marconi were, both of them were trying to capture sound. This, I mean to say, radio. They are theorizing that sound can be captured.
Śyāmasundara: When we were discussing Plato, Plato has this idea also that the ideal precedes the physical representation and you said yes, that the ideal was in spiritual realm, it exists in the spiritual realm. Because of that we are able to conceptualize some idea.
Prabhupāda: Not that that idea is like this. Just like we have found that in the spiritual world and this is perverted reflection so in the śāstra we hear, cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu, the houses are made of touchstone. So we have never seen touchstone, neither you have seen a house made of touchstone. We have seen house made of bricks or wood. So this is, this may be an idea but that idea comes by hearing from authority. Not that we manufacture that spiritual world must be made up. Like this.
Śyāmasundara: So there is always some substance which forms the contents of the idea.
Prabhupāda: Yes, idea means there is substance but I have not seen it. That is idea.
Prabhupāda: We say spirit has got everything. Why this or that? Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is coming from. Why this or that? There is no such discrimination.
Śyāmasundara: What about a notion or a concept? How does that come into being if it has never existed before?
Prabhupāda: Notion, notion is the same thing like that. You have got, you have seen gold and you have seen mountain so you can build a golden mountain. Although you have never seen what is golden mountain.
Kīrtanānanda: But if I have that idea of a golden mountain, that means that in the spiritual world that must exist?
Prabhupāda: No, not necessarily. Spiritual world means everything existing. Unless there is substance in the spiritual world there cannot be anything even(?). Because it is said, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything is (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: They found, but beyond that they do not know. They found it. It was already there. So wherefrom it came?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Another definition that is raised by most so-called modern scientists, research scientists, they try to find out the meaning of what is research and what is invention. So many scientists have posed also the concept that invention, strictly speaking, is a paradox. When we say invention, "I invented something," somebody invented radio, or somebody invented such-and-such thing, it is not really an invention.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say it cannot come out of nothing. It is already there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We did not know it, that it was already there. Foolishly we say that we invent these things.
Prabhupāda: You see, the action is already going on. You see all of a sudden something comes. But that is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: ...and he may go away from the marketplace. So because he goes away, you can't say that that person doesn't exist any more because he's not observable there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, in Darwin's concept he used the natural selection, but he doesn't go far enough what that nature is. He used the term "natural," but he does not know how to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Explain what is nature. That means insufficient knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: He simply observed there are mutations in nature. For instance, he thinks that perhaps at one time...
Prabhupāda: That means nature is working.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Nature is working, but he cannot explain how nature is working.
Prabhupāda: They are a set of fools. And going on under the name of scientists. Set of fools.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the other hand, the so-called physicist... His name was Heisenberg. He produced the concept of the theory of uncertainty, and he found out that certain physical rules that govern certain parts of the so-called universal system of rules—why the planets are moving around the sun, and why they have a repeated course and so on. But he did not know what was the answer. So he named the title of the theory, the Theory of Uncertainty. Based on that, there are so many groups coming up, but they found uncertainty itself, that implies that there is some...
Prabhupāda: Basic principle is uncertainty, and they're building on big, big buildings.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But the real theory started by Darwin, that was accepted for several years, but later on, with new advancement, his theory changed. His theory became disproved, that "What you are saying, it is not right, it is not final." So theories can change. So same thing, Darwin's theory is also changing.
Śyāmasundara: But his impact upon the thinking of the world so completely changed the whole conception of...
Prabhupāda: That is now changing again. So what is the use of that, such change?
Śyāmasundara: Well, you have to investigate, because he is important for our...
Prabhupāda: No. That's all right. We will investigate; and a theory which changes, it will change, that's all. It is not a fact. The sun rising is a fact. It cannot change.
Śyāmasundara: Still, you say if there were high forms of, say Brahmā, in Brahmā's time or millions of years ago, there were also other high animals besides men?
Prabhupāda: All I say is that all kinds of different classes of forms were existing, since the creation.
Prabhupāda: That does not mean that there is no civilization. That is their imperfect knowledge.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually, our so-called modern scientific stories, knowledge is so empiric it's now (indistinct) on complete proof. It is always stands to have objectionable work, sides; so it is not perfect at all. Just like from Śrīla Prabhupāda's book on the Easy Journey to Other Planets, Śrīla Prabhupāda mentioned the discovery of the anti-proton, by the scientists who got the Nobel Prizes in 1959, and Prabhupāda gives all information from Bhagavad-gītā, anything, is already there; Prabhupāda has said it. They say anti-proton... They just discovered the anti-proton, but they still think it is some matter, that is not..., they say anti-proton but still they think that it is connected with matter. But Prabhupāda said it is not matter, it is spirit. Differentiation between matter and anti-matter. Matter is material thing; anti-matter is spirit or (indistinct). So Prabhupāda comments so nicely about the so-called modern scientists to do further research on this concept of anti-matter. Perhaps they will come to an understanding about the spirit, they come to a point. Our knowledge is what you call a modern scientific findings or evidences always subject to changes also...
Prabhupāda: This must be changing because the instruments by which we acquire knowledge, they are imperfect. So by our so-called research and sensuous acceptance of knowledge, that is never perfect. It cannot be perfect.
Prabhupāda: The future... Any fool can say "In future I shall prove." Then what is the difference between scientists and the fool? "Trust no future, however pleasant."
Śyāmasundara: But Darwin is the one who introduced this whole concept that we are evolving towards something better.
Prabhupāda: That we accept. That we accept. Just like we are now in human form of life. Now we can go, can make our position better. Either we go in so many higher planetary systems or we go to Vaikuṇṭha.
Śyāmasundara: In terms of species actually living on this planet, he thinks that we have come up from apes, now we may go up to higher forms of men or species.
Prabhupāda: That is already... The apes are already there. You are also there.
Karandhara: Their idea is that if they can sufficiently understand this process of evolution and know its principles then they can control it, they can manipulate it to their own ends.
Prabhupāda: There is information.
Śyāmasundara: But Darwin doesn't have any conception of the jīva.
Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: He sees only the bodies are changing.
Prabhupāda: Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Anyone, that is also mentioned there. Teṣām ātma vimanuna (indistinct). Foolish. Child. Child thinks "I am this body." (indistinct) means fools. Ātma vimanu: "I am this body." Animal thinks that "I am this body." Virakara (indistinct) ātmā vinanena anāśrita. They do not know what is my position. Misleading.
Śyāmasundara: There is a scientific subject which has become very popular now, called genetics, which has to do with the origins of life.
Prabhupāda: Well these so-called scientific theories are popular now and unpopular after few years. That's all. Again something popular. They are not science. Science cannot be popular now and unpopular after some days.
Hayagrīva: This is Darwin. Darwin's conception of evolution rests on the contention that there is a real genetic change from generation to generation. In other words, Darwin rejects the platonic igos. Igos is the Greek for idea, type or essence. There is no human igos, human type or essence. There are no fixed species. This is in contradistinction to the platonic idea that the species exist in essence or, as Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, bījam, "I am the seed of all existences." Darwin would not recognize any bījam, or seed, particular type for any species. Rather, he sees shifting, evolving physical forms constantly changing.
Prabhupāda: The different forms are already there. Just like the form of monkeys also there, the form of man is also there, other animals, other birds, beasts. So he has no clear conception how the evolution is taking place, neither he has any idea about whose evolution. He simply takes account of the body. A body never evolves. It is the soul within the body—he evolves, transmigrates from one body to another. Just we see that a child becomes a boy. The..., if the child is dead, it no more evolves. So it is the soul that is concerned. The soul is within the body, and he desires and evolves. That is Vedic conception and that is life.
Prabhupāda: This is, this worship and the concept of worship, if actually one believes or knows, so the real worship is that which pleases God. If you manufacture... Just like I want a glass of water, and if my servant gives me a glass of hot milk, is that worship? Worship means what I want, if you give me, then I am satisfied. But if I want a cold glass of water, you give me..., if you think, "No. Milk is better than water," so that, will that satisfy me? So these concocted ideas of worshiping will actually satisfy God, that is wrong theory, that one can worship God according to his own dictation. That means his God is fictitious. He has no idea of God. And he can concoct ideas. But actually if there is God, one should worship according to the dictation of God. But if he does not know what is God, what is the dictation of God, then he is a rascal. What is the use of his so-called worship? It may be to some extent a sentiment, but that is not worship. If you want to worship God, you must worship God according to His dictation. That is real worship. How he can manufacture the way of worship?
Hayagrīva: The prosecutor...
Prabhupāda: What will be the answer? If you want to worship God, you must worship according to the dictation of God. If you have no such dictation, if you have no idea of God, then how you can worship God? You can worship a ghost, according unto you. If freedom is given to your conception, then you can worship a dog instead of God, because you do not know what is God and what God wants you to do. So without the conception of God, real, how one can worship God by whimsical ideas?
Śyāmasundara: And come back.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Śyāmasundara: His conception of the soul, which he calls elan vital in French language, means the vital impulse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vital..., this is living force, vital force. (indistinct), it is never addressed. God has (indistinct) for the mind, for the intelligence, for the body, God has (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Is it (indistinct) in the same quantity in every body, in every living body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Same quantity. The same measurement: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.
Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of permanent. Because he has got independence, he can misuse his independence, he can fall down. That's why one man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently he... He can come back again.
Śyāmasundara: There's no guarantee.
Atreya Ṛṣi: This concept of prediction, Prabhupāda. You just said it's the duty of the material (indistinct) because he's (indistinct) material. Because he's not sure and...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) by experience (indistinct). Just like you can predict that four months after, there will be winter season. This prediction is like that. You have got experience that last year there was winter season, and again four months after there will be winter season. We call this prediction of experience, that's all.
Atreya Ṛṣi: In the spiritual world everything is permanent.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Because he has got experience.
Śyāmasundara: Just like in mathematics they use the concept of intuition a lot, that...
Prabhupāda: A big mathametician, suppose there is a big addition, sum, and one experienced mathematician, he can simply... Sometimes there is some difference. You know that? Generally we have some (indistinct). Is it not? But there are many experienced (indistinct) immediately (indistinct). That is experience.
Devotee: The concept of intuition...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: This is not intuition, this is experience.
Prabhupāda: Everything is good! That is our philosophy. When the God kills the demons, immediately flowers are showered upon Him from the sky. You have not read in...? He is good. He is always good. He has no idea of God, and still he poses himself as philosopher. God is good. Kṛṣṇa chanted, danced with others' wives at dead of night. Any man who does it, he is immediately a debauch, licentious. But still we worship that rasa-līlā. We worship that rasa-līlā. We keep the picture of God's dancing with others' wives. That is God. In all circumstances, God is good. That is worshipable. That is idea of God. Not that I put Him under my judgment: "Oh, yes, you are good, but not so good." Then I am a fool. I create my own God. "I am better than God. I can create God." No. God creates you. You cannot create God.
Śyāmasundara: He says that because there is evil present in the world, that this shows...
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is evil, what is good. He should know what is created by God is good, even if it appears to be evil to us. That is conception of God. I may think it is evil, but it is good. I do not know how it is good—that is my fault. That is my fault. But it is good. If I put God under my discrimination, under my judgment, that He is not good. He is not God; He is dog. God cannot be under my judgment. God is good always.
Śyāmasundara: So that's all for John Stuart Mill. (end)
Prabhupāda: Evil situation.
Hayagrīva: The Christian, there's a Christian conception of God as being at war with Satan, and it appears also that Kṛṣṇa was at war on the battlefield of Kurukṣetra, and there were wars between the demigods and the demons, but in the Vedic literatures these wars do not seem to be taken as serious confrontation between God and God's enemies, but Kṛṣṇa seems to fight the demons in a playful mood. This isn't the case in Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful. So His fighting with the demons is, actually it is play. It doesn't affect His energy. Just like a small child is fighting with his strong father. So one slap by the strong father is sufficient to the small child. Similarly the fighting of the demons with God is like that. He gives some chance to play fighting but one strong slap to the demon is sufficient. So there is no question of fighting with God. He is omni-powerful, omni-competent, omni... But the demons are there disobeying. When the living being becomes too much disobedient and harassing to the obedient persons or devotees, then it is necessary that God kills them. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). That two business is going on, to chastise severely the demons, non-devotees, and to give protection to the devotees. That is the idea of fighting with the demons and the demigods. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnām, whenever there is such fight, God takes side of the demigods.
Hayagrīva: He says, "Belief in the supernatural, great as though the service is which it rendered in the early stages of human development, cannot be considered to be any longer required either for enabling us to know what is right and wrong in social morality, or for supplying us with motives to do right and abstain from wrong." That is God is not actually necessary for a sense of morality and in communist countries today we see that they instill a social morality in their citizens that is devoid of any conception of God.
Prabhupāda: Morality means to abide by the orders of God. That is real morality. Other things which we manufacture, that you will find different in different countries. But religion and morality both of them are the same principle because religion means to carry out the orders of God, and morality means only the, I mean the principle to fulfill the desires of God. Just like in the battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna was considering, "Killing is immorality." But when he understood by the instruction of Kṛṣṇa that this fight is necessary as it is designed by Kṛṣṇa, so this is morality. Ultimately, morality means to carry out the desire of Kṛṣṇa or God. He knows what is morality. This, another example can be given, that in the warfield the soldier is there and the commander is there. The commander is asking, kill the enemy, and if he considers that "Killing is bad, why shall I kill the enemy?" That is immorality. He should be immediately killed by martial law. He is disobeying the order of commander. So similarly, what you get, orders from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if you carry it that is morality. Any other things manufactured by you, that (is) immorality.
Prabhupāda: Absolute? False?
Śyāmasundara: No. He says that a unified pattern of things, that the universe as a unified scheme, neat pattern of things, is false because our direct experience informs us of a discontinuity of facts. Our direct experiences sees discontinuity of facts, so we must conclude that the universe is comprised of facts which are not perfect in unity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are seeing the universe by your imperfect eyes. So it is your imperfectness. Just like you are seeing the sun planet just like a disc, but it is not a disc. But because you cannot see perfectly, you are thinking like that. So your conception of the universe is imperfect, because you are imperfect. Otherwise, everything is complete. Just like Īśopaniṣad, pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). It is complete. That is the first verse of the Īśopaniṣad. But because you are imperfect, you are seeing the universe and everything as imperfect. The universe, because it is made by God, it cannot be imperfect. God is perfect, and anything created by God is perfect.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that...
Prabhupāda: Because you do not see through the eyes of God—you want to see through your imperfect eyes-therefore you consider this universe as imperfect.
Śyāmasundara: Don't all living things have experience?
Prabhupāda: No. All the living things are experienced, but ultimately they are put into certain condition by the experience of the Supreme. And the flavor of the flower is stated in Bhagavad-gītā: puṇyo gandhaḥ pṛthivyāṁ ca. There are many flowers, but all of them have no flavor. It must be the arrangement of somebody else who has given flavor to some flowers. He has given somebody beauty and somebody not. Otherwise who will deny beauty? If it had been done by his own experience, then everyone would have been beautiful or every flower would have given flavor. Where is that experience? That means either you say flower's experience or your experience, it is conducted by another, superior experience. What is that?
Devānanda: Would another conception be that Kṛṣṇa is not only the experienced since time immemorial but He is also the experiencer now? He, being the prime enjoyer, enjoyment means experience. He knows nothing but enjoying, so all His experience is enjoying. All His enjoying is His experience. That experience...
Prabhupāda: That means that the sum and substance, that is supremely experienced, past, present and future. Unless He is supremely experienced, how He can know future? Past and present..., past, present and future for us, because of the time, eternal time... I am a fragmental production of this time; therefore there is a beginning of my appearance, date. And when I disappear, there is a date of my disappearance. And within this date of appearance and disappearance, there is past, present and future. So my past, present and future and an ant's past, present and future and Brahmā's past, present... They are all different.
Prabhupāda: The man or not man, there are living beings, varieties; we simply do not see the man as a living being. We see there are varieties of living beings, beginning from water up to the higher planetary system. There are different forms of living being, we have several times repeated. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati, like that, nine millions, ah, nine hundred thousands forms of body within the water; then plants, trees, creepers, insects. So all of them are living beings. God is concerned with all of them. Why man is created? Every one of us in different form we are created. Or exactly not created; we are part and parcel of God. In one word God is the father of all living entities. So the simple relationship is that God is maintainer, we are maintained. This is our relationship. In the material world, as a man may have more than one wife, so similarly God has two prakṛtis, or subordinate energies—material and spiritual. So in the material world the material nature is the mother, God is the father, and varieties of living entities, they are all maintained by the father, supreme father. This is the conception of universal brotherhood. And if we understand our relationship with God as father and son... There are so many sons. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu. All different forms of life, the mother is material nature, and God says, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā: (BG 14.4) "And I am the seed-giving father." So that relationship should be known, and if we act according to that relationship, there will be actual peace and prosperity and advancement of all knowledge. That is wanted.
Hayagrīva: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes, "The founders of every church owe their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the Divine. Not only the superhuman founders—the Christ, the Buddha, Muhammad—but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case. So personal religion should still seem the primordial thing even for those who continue to esteem it incomplete."
Prabhupāda: Yes. God is person. If He is the supreme father, the father is a person. We have got no experience of father being imperson. My father is person, his father is person, his father is person. In this way go on, father's father's..., searching. So the ultimate father is also person. There is no doubt about it. Either human father or animal father, every living being is a person. Therefore the right conclusion is God the father of all living being is person. Personal conception of God is there in every religion-Christian religion, Muhammadan religion, or Vedic religion. In the Vedic religion, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayoḥ. Those who are sura, means advanced in spiritual knowledge, or the brāhmaṇas, one who knows the Supreme, they find the supreme father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa is the same category, or same substance. So God is person and the ultimate end. The impersonal realization is imperfect realization of God. The Supersoul realization is still advancement, but the final advancement is Bhagavān, or person God. So we must know our relationship with, and first of all our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him, then act accordingly. Then our life becomes perfect. This is the process of God realization.
Prabhupāda: So philosophy means advancement of knowledge. So we are making progress in knowledge when our knowledge is actually come to the point of perfection of knowledge, that is understanding of God. God is there, but on account of our foolishness, sometimes we deny the existence of God. That is the most foolish platform of living condition. But sometimes we have vague idea, some imagination, and sometimes impersonal, sometimes pantheistic. In this way different philosophies means they are searching after God, but on account of not being perfect, there are differences of opinion or different conception of God. But actually God is person, and when one comes to that platform—to know God, to talk with Him, to see Him, to feel His presence, even to play with Him—that is the highest platform of God realization. And the relationship is God is the great and we are small. So our position is always subordinate.
Hayagrīva: He says that the natural existence often proves itself to be basically unhappy. "With such relations between religion and happiness, it is perhaps not surprising that men come to regard the happiness which a religious belief affords as a proof of its truth. If a creed makes a man feel happy he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true. Such, rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are actually in clear conception of God, and if you have decided to obey God and love Him, that is happiness. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). This process of acting in obedience to the order of God, as we are doing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... We have no other business than to obey the orders of God. God says that you preach this confidential philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness everywhere. So because we are trying to love God, we have got some affection and love for God; therefore we are so much eager to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, "It is Kṛṣṇa's business. Why should we bother about Him?" No. Because we love Kṛṣṇa, and He is happy that His message is being spread, that is our happiness also, that we are trying to serve God, tacitly, without any doubt. So we also feel happy, and God says that He will be very happy if you do this. So this is reciprocation. This is religion. Religion is no sentiment. Actual realization of God, actual carrying out or executing the orders of God, then God is happy, we are happy, and our progress of life is secure.
Hayagrīva: Three, he speaks of, "An immense elation, or happiness, and freedom as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66). This material selfishness is māyā. Actually that is not selfishness. Real selfishness is to know the relationship with God. But persons who are engrossed with the spell of māyā, illusory energy, they do not know that. Mostly, 99.9%, they have vague idea of God, and how they will know the relationship? So, so that our actual business, first business is to have complete idea, complete sense of God and our relationship. That is the business of human life. Therefore in the Vedic process, the real business is realize God. Either you take yoga system or jñāna system, and bhakti is cent percent simply realization of God. That is the business of human life. He hasn't got to do any other thing. That is practical understanding of God. A perfect human being knows that "My necessities of life is supplied by God, so I have no business to improve the economic condition." That cannot be done also. Nobody is going to be very rich, all of them. According to the destiny he gets his position. So one who is self-realized, he does not want to improve the material condition of life, but he wants to improve the spiritual conception of life. That is human life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A devotee is always confident that "I am sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa, so in case of danger Kṛṣṇa will save me." The, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja life we see. He was helpless child, and his father, great demon, always chastising him, but he was confident that Kṛṣṇa would save him. So when the things became too much intolerable, so Lord appeared as Nṛsiṁha-deva and killed Hiraṇyakaśipu. So therefore a devotee's protection by God is always guaranteed, and one who is pure devotee, he is not disturbed by any material condition. He keeps his firm faith in God. That is called surrender. It is called avaśya rakśibe kṛṣṇa viśvāsa pālanam, to continue the faith that "Kṛṣṇa will give me protection." This full suvrender means to accept things which is favorable to God consciousness, to reject things which is unfavorable to God consciousness, to have firm faith of security under the protection of God, to enter into the family of God. These are the different processes of surrender.
Hayagrīva: He concludes, "In opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled. The universe takes a turn generally for the worse or for the better in proportion as each one of us fulfills or evades God's demands."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is concept. God demands that "You fully surrender unto Me." So when one fully surrenders unto God, that is perfection of life.
Hayagrīva: So that's the conclusion of James. (end)
Hayagrīva: He writes, "According to the religious and philosophic tradition of Europe, the valid status of all the highest values, the good, true and beautiful, was bound up with their being properties of ultimate and supreme being, namely God. All went well as long as what passed for natural science gave no offense to this conception. Trouble began when science ceased to disclose in the objects of knowledge the possession of any such properties. Then some roundabout method had to be devised for substantiating them." In other words, science began to investigate the phenomenal universe without admitting the proprietorship of anyone, of God, and this brings a breakdown in morality and value. So Dewey attempts to reassemble these shattered values in a philosophical way, but he, like science, attempts to do so without recognizing the proprietorship of an ultimate and supreme being.
Prabhupāda: That is another lunacy, because everything has a proprietor. So why this big cosmic manifestation will not have a proprietor? To accept the proprietor is natural, and that is logical. And not to accept a proprietor, that is lunacy. How it can be possible? Just like we give this example: We are standing on the land. We know that there is government, there is proprietor. And a few yards after, when this ocean begins, how we can think of that the ocean has no proprietor, no government? How any philosopher and man having logic can believe it? What is the answer?
Prabhupāda: Historical... It is historical. The whole cosmic manifestation has a date of creation; therefore it is historical. Anything material which has a beginning, that, that is history, it has got a history. So people do not know how long before this material world or cosmic manifestation was created. It is beyond their conception. Even the mathematical count, millions and trillions and millions, will not do, when he began, but it has got a history-beyond the calculation of so-called scientist and mathematician, but there is history. According to Vedic description there is history. There is history of Manu, there is history of, of Brahmā. So in this way there is a regular history. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā a small instance of history is being given: sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17), that the Brahmā's daytime, just like we have got solar calculation, twelve hours' daytime, so that twelve hours of Brahmā is calculated sahara-yuga-paryantam. One yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of years. Similarly, thousand times, that is Brahmā's twelve hours. So everything is relative. We are tiny people. We have got history of this world, some thousands of years, but Brahmā is greater than the human being. His history is different.
Hayagrīva: You..., when you discussed Dewey with Śyāmasundara Prabhu, you said that Dewey wants to make God his scapegoat—why does he mention the word God, and he uses the word God to serve his own ends. His philosophic conception is the working union of the ideal and the actual. This is rather vague, but this is his definition of God: Man striving for perfection.
Prabhupāda: He can define, but he must be a very, what is called, sane man to define. The sane man's definition of God is there. Just like everyone says, "God is great." So now if he can define what is the greatness... The greatness, if one man is very rich, we consider him great man. If a man is very wise we call him a great man. If a man is very strong or influential or beautiful... Greatness according to our estimation. So all this greatness must be there in God. God must be the richest, God must be the strongest, God must be the most beautiful, God must be wisest. In this way, six opulences calculated, and when these opulences are in completeness, that is God. So that completeness we find in the history Kṛṣṇa. In the history of humanity it is very easy to find out that when Kṛṣṇa was present on this planet, so He proved the strongest, the most influential, the most beautiful, the supreme wise—everything—supreme famous.
Prabhupāda: In the history we find that Kṛṣṇa went within the sea. Within the sea. Kṛṣṇa penetrated the universe. He is God. God can do that. We have no conception of God, and when God comes and shows His godly power, we take it as mythology. Then what, how God will be proved? When you see Him doing uncommon activities, you say it is mythology; and he does not see, he will say there is no God. This is your position. So this is not sanity. It is all insanity. Let them talk all this nonsense. We do not accept that.
Hayagrīva: He says in the realm of philosophy and religion, certainty is impossible. He says, "The moment philosophy supposes it can find a final and comprehensive solution, it ceases to be inquiry and becomes either apologetics or propaganda. Any philosophy that in its quest for certainty ignores the reality of the uncertain in the ongoing processes of nature denies the conditions out of which it arises."
Prabhupāda: There is uncertain when you do not accept the reality. The reality is God, and God is explaining how things are going on, but you take it as mythology. Then how you will know?
Hayagrīva: No way.
Prabhupāda: But why the Christians are committing sins still? They have given contract to Jesus Christ that "You suffer for us and we go on committing sins." Very good philosophy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is their concept of God?
Śyāmasundara: Well, going on now, he says that these life stages or these three levels that we talked about are the levels of attaining selfhood. That is, that selfhood is an achievement, not that it is a given human nature, but that it is an achievement. Not that a self-realized soul is simply that way because that is his nature, but because he has achieved that stage through... He's developed to that stage through consciously...
Prabhupāda: Without any endeavor he'll achieve?
Śyāmasundara: No, no. That he has, with great endeavor, intelligently and consciously achieved that stage. Not that he has without any endeavor got that stage. It is not natural stage, even...
Prabhupāda: So when that endeavor is made?
Śyāmasundara: It is made passing through these three stages of development.
Prabhupāda: That means this endeavor is possible in human form of life. Therefore we are preaching that the human form is especially meant for God realization. That is the first function of the human form of life. Not to act as animal. That is our (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Then you must have order of God. Unless you have no conception of God, where is the question of order? If God is impersonal, He cannot speak, He has no mouth, He has no tongue, He has no eyes, He has..., where is the question of order?
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that Jesus is the standard.
Prabhupāda: But that's all right. Then there is no Christian. Jesus Christ's first order is "Thou shall not kill," and they're killing, simply killing. Then where is Christians? There is no Christian.
Śyāmasundara: So he calls the modern Christianity the "sickness unto death," because he says...
Prabhupāda: In the other words, we say there is no Christian.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that modern Christianity is sick. It is sickness unto death, he calls it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If he accepts Jesus as the perfection, why doesn't he, in the beginning when he was looking for a way of making decisions, why doesn't he follow Jesus's path of morality?
Śyāmasundara: Well, he does. He does. He's just describing the philosophers describing...
Prabhupāda: He's coming to the point of religion.
Śyāmasundara: You said (indistinct) just the opposite. You said, "Keep me talking. That is my life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a fact. Sa vai puṁsām... Sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane (SB 9.4.18). That is Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, the great saintly king. About him it is described, sa vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ. He engaged completely, twenty-four hours, his mind unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. And vacāṁsi vaikuṇṭha-guṇānuvarṇane, and he engaged his talking simply on Vaikuṇṭha, on the subject matter of Vaikuṇṭha, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Prahlāda Mahārāja also speaks like that: tad vijñā, tad vijñā sa (indistinct). Glorifying, he is very (indistinct). So they have no conception of God, and whatever you believe, (indistinct). So God is imperson, He is not a person, so where is the (indistinct)? So they come to the (indistinct), scientist, another politician, another this, (indistinct) and they want to become a hero eventually, "I am a great philanthropist," "I am a great nationalist," "I am greatest philosopher." That... And when they finish their talks, then become (indistinct). No more talks—finished. (Hindi) Prahlāda Mahārāja says that (indistinct). He says that śoce tato muni vimukha-cetasa(?): "I am simply thinking of these rascals who are without God consciousness."
Śyāmasundara: So he says that this anxiety and uncertainty is displaced or replaced by the passion of truth or faith.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These modern economic concept, they think that this anxiety is the impetus for economic development. They also say like that. Just like in America especially, they are never satisfied. They are manufacturing another machine, another machine, another machine. That hankering after another, another, they think it is really progress. In one sense it is all right, all right, but the attempt should be made, when there is goal. Just like you know how to rise up to the 102nd story that Empire Building. Now they're going step by step, and you know that "I have not completed the step, that I will go further, further, all right," but you know that "I have to go to 102nd story." But if you do not know, this is simply waste of energy. Or you should take the path of mahājana, mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Even you do not know where to go, you have seen somebody is going up, so you follow him. You follow him. That is also nice. Even you do not know what is the goal, you see that this man, who is first-class, he has followed this path. So if you follow him, mahājano yena gataḥ sa, that is all right. That is also firm, fixed up. Unless you know the goal, the fixed-up point, then your energy may be misused, misguided. The passion, the energy, will be misguided.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) That's right. That is very good. Impersonal conception of God is a troublesome business. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: kleśaḥ adhikataras teṣām avyakta āsakta cetasām. Find out this verse.
Hari-śauri:
- kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām
- avyaktāsakta-cetasām
- avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
- dehavadbhir avāpyate
- (BG 12.5)
"For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."
Prabhupāda: That is the proof. Because the soul takes shelter into the womb of the mother, the father injects the soul—that is the statement of the śāstras—in the womb of the mother, and the mother gives shelter. So the body develops from the womb of the mother. There is conception, pregnancy. That is the proof.
Śyāmasundara: Ultimately there is nothing to measure, when the body dies, to determine where that soul went.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That you can measure by knowledge. Just like Bhagavad-gītā has said, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā (BG 14.18). Just like a man has committed murder, killed somebody. He is arrested, he is taken away from your sight, but you can know that he has committed murder, he will be hanged. That's all. You do not require to go there and see that he is hanged. It doesn't require. That is foolishness. If somebody says that "I did not see that the man was arrested," that's all right, but "I did not see that he was hanged. I cannot believe it," no. You believe or not believe, it is a fact.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) limited science, when you are in the limited material world, good means which satisfies my senses good. That is good. And bad means which does not satisfy my senses. But so far my senses are concerned, this is temporary (indistinct); therefore in this material world, the conceptions of good and bad, they are all the same. Real goodness is God. God is good. That is good.
Devotee: Jaya! Haribol! Haribol!
Śyāmasundara: So he is saying...
Prabhupāda: Everything which is not God, that is bad. That is real goodness.
Śyāmasundara: He says it's how we use the word good, not what the word good means.
Prabhupāda: Good means, I already explained, which satisfies my senses. That is good. But God is good. He satisfies my senses and all others' senses. The relative good is it may satisfy my senses but it may not satisfy your senses. Therefore it is not good. Therefore what is good to me is not good to you. One man's food is another man's poison. Therefore this is relative good.
Prabhupāda: Difference, so potential is actual.
Śyāmasundara: But they are acting on a smaller level. And when they reach that stage of loving God, then there's no more potential, purely actual.
Prabhupāda: That's right. That is higher conception. Saṁsiddhiṁ labhate parām. That is higher conception.
Śyāmasundara: He says... Now here is maybe one degree of difference. He says that ethical life, or knowledge of the Absolute, comes to our conscience or our reason, and the ethical life is to act in accordance or obedience to our conscience or our reason.
Prabhupāda: Conscience..., not ordinary conscience—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Conscience is pure, but when it is diluted, contaminated, so somebody has got his conscience, consciousness, a different type. Just like Pakistani, Hindustani, they have got Hindustani consciousness or Pakistani consciousness, Muhammadan consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: Conscience. Not conscious but conscience.
Prabhupāda: Conscience, everyone is conscience. Every living entity has got conscience.
Śyāmasundara: He says that this is..., because of this spiritual personality that he can know and love God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Without person how there can be love? There is no question of love. You cannot love air or sky; you must find out a man or woman in the, under the sky. So therefore if you want to love God then you must accept God is a person; otherwise there is no question of love. Therefore for the Māyāvādī philosopher there is no question of love. They merge. They want sāyujya-mukti, to become one. They have no other conception, because they cannot conceive personal God. So there is no love. Therefore they manufacture an idea that in the material condition of life, you just imagine any form of God and love Him, and ultimately you become one. That is their philosophy. Ultimately you throw away this... The example is given that you want to rise on some top floor you take a ladder and go to the top and throw away the ladder: there is no need of this ladder, now you have come to the position. So their theory is that because you cannot love or worship something impersonal, because it is difficult, it is troublesome... It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, kleśa adhikataras teṣām avyaktāsakta-cetasām: those who are attached to impersonal deities, their progress in spiritual life is very troublesome because they never fix up.
Prabhupāda: Because transcendental ego will help. If you accept transcendental ego, he will help: "Here is your spiritual master." There is no difficulty. There is no question of how I shall find it. If you have faith in transcendental ego, he will be able to tell you that "Here is." Where is the difficulty?
Devotee: No difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise his transcendental ego conception is also faith, which is not fact.
Devotee: If you think that bringing in mental along with transcendental all the time anyway, you just (indistinct) wipe the mind clean and have an intuitive understanding of anything... How can you do that? Everybody's got subjective values. How they can look at something and just understand it intuitively? That's not transcendental; that's mental.
Śyāmasundara: No. It's subjective. Yes. That's intuition-it's subjective.
Śyāmasundara: Before we ever found out from you who is Kṛṣṇa, we had ideas of body, and nature, and God—all these things we knew about-fire, earth, water. We had made studies, so we could understand when He said that "The earth, the sky, the fire, they are My separated energies." When you told us that, we could understand it, but unless we knew the terms, that conceptions of those things, we could never have understood.
Prabhupāda: And you understood because you came in contact of a spiritual master. Therefore it is needed. It is essential. One must have a spiritual master to know things as they are. You cannot speculate; then you will remain in darkness.
Devotee: How can one see the spiritual master in darkness? If you are standing in a dark room...
Prabhupāda: The same thing. When you go on inquiring, then the question of spiritual master comes, when inquiry is there within yourself.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's his distinction. The "I" feeling is, that would be the conscience which is made up of the data, day to day, that I observe, which is my world, the stream of consciousness, that "I think I am." So I may be allowed to...
Prabhupāda: No. At every moment I speculate my mind-accept something, reject something—then I am, "What is to be done?" Then something dictation is there. That is transcendental ego.
Devotee: How did we get into the conception of transcendental ego?
Śyāmasundara: Well, that we haven't come to yet. That's later. We're still... I mean, if you want to jump to that we can, but we're missing a lot that goes between.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That will come gradually. But we accept that transcendental ego.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. But now he's discussing the phenomenological ego, or what we would call the false ego, the sense of "I." He says that this ego is an act, an activity—of doubting, understanding, affirming, denying, ruling, refusing, imagining, feeling...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called in Sanskrit language saṅkalpa and vikalpa: You accept something and reject something. That's all. You can make a different branches of these two words.
Prabhupāda: To divert his attention. (indistinct) That is understanding, and nicer thing (indistinct), that is our formula, (indistinct). Actually, as one increases his Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes (indistinct) all this material (indistinct). That is the prime remedy-panacea for all diseases.
Devotee: This Freudian philosophy is an offshoot from Darwin philosophy. Freud also thinks that man is a biological organism only; therefore his biological functioning should measure up to certain norms of biological behavior. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong. If it does, then everything is all right. So he makes some animal behavior good and other animal behavior substandard, and you want to bring everybody to a certain standard of animal behavior. But he has no conception of spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: We know he's a great fool, but we have to convince the students.
Prabhupāda: We have to convince them as I am convincing you. That is your business.
Prabhupāda: But the basic principle is called, as Vivekananda says, that he is following the principles of (indistinct), he has no conception of the soul that is existing beyond the body. So they are taking consideration of the body. So according to our philosophy, Bhāgavata, anyone who is in the concept of this body is no better than an ass. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). One who is identifying this body of three elements as the self, he is no better than an ass.
Śyāmasundara: These three types of reaction to anything—the id reaction, the ego reaction and the superego reaction—these are all bodily reactions.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all bodily—subtle reactions.
Prabhupāda: That we have explained by quoting Śrī Yamunācārya's verse, that "Since I have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whenever I think of sexual intercourse, my mouth becomes deformed and I want to spit."
Devotee: Freud would say that whatever talents you have, use them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But Freud says if somebody has the impulse to kill, he should become a surgeon. If somebody has the impulse to stab someone, then he should be directed to become a doctor and a surgeon, and then by that same cutting...
Devotee (2): This is still a limited conception of what...
Prabhupāda: Then all murderers should be sent to medical college to become surgeons instead of condemning them. Why not?
Devotee: Or put them in the army.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Devotee: They do not like that now. They recruit for the army from the prison.
Devotee (2): (indistinct)
Devotee: But we have the higher...
Prabhupāda: To some extent that is all right, because therefore the kṣatriya race is there, the fighting spirit.
Devotee: Just like he says that from the social standards of conduct and moral codes, a person develops an ideal conception of himself. He wants to think himself ideal, and this ideal conception fits the standard of the society and his environment. Then from inside, from his more animal desires, sex desire, etc., he gets impulses which don't fit that standard, that he feels some sex love, but it should not be there, so he wants to say, "I don't really have that." So he tries to repress that desire either by repressing it or by saying, "I don't desire that. Somebody else desires like that," or in so many ways he tries to cover the fact that his own psychological make-up doesn't fit his standard. Therefore he calls it defense mechanism, a way to pretend as if I still am ideal, although I don't really have ideal desires and thoughts, like that. That's the (indistinct). So he postulated all these different mechanisms for defending the ego against the desires of the id or... (break)
Prabhupāda: You have seen that play?
Śyāmasundara: Tarzan?
Prabhupāda: Tarzan. Yes. He was brought up by monkeys. He was brought on... He has got the monkey habits. Children, if you keep them in good association, then they will come out very good. They will have psychological development in good way. And if you keep them in bad association, they will come out bad. Just like in Boston the priest regretted that these our American boys, they were so much after God, but they could not lead(?) them. Actually you American boys, before coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there was no God consciousness; there was hippie consciousness. And now this has changed, due to association.
Prabhupāda: Unless you can deny that you have born, you are born without father, then you are a child. You do not have conception how you are in existence without father. What is this argument? That everything must be argued, a sane man. So this is simple logic I am putting forward. Who can refute it, that you have father, your father had father, his father had father, father's father's, all? This is a disciplic succession of fathers. How can you deny the father? Therefore the ultimate father, the supreme father, He is also father but He is supreme father. That is the difference. So father conception of God is very practical, and it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). So how he can defy it if he is a sane man? Who can defy it? Is there any person to defy it?
Hayagrīva: Well, he says, "Man's helplessness remains, and with it his father-longing and the gods."
Prabhupāda: Hopelessness or no hopelessness...
Hayagrīva: Helplessness.
Prabhupāda: Ah. But suppose he is philosophizing. So how he can avoid the conception of father? That is insanity. This is very simple thing. Father's father's, his father, his father... When you go to the supreme father, that is God.
Hayagrīva: He felt that the father God is an infantile wish. He says, "The whole thing is so patently infantile, so incongruous with reality, that one whose attitudes..."
Prabhupāda: So what is his reality? Infantile conception of God, but what he is, except the child? Huh? He is also planning something. That is also childish. So how he becomes more than a child? He cannot give us any definite program by which everyone will be hopeful.
Hayagrīva: Well, he felt psychoanalysis was the answer.
Prabhupāda: That is jugglery of word. Psychoanalysis, nobody will, can understand, a common man. Psychoanalysis, if there is meaning, that there is supreme controller, that is psychoanalysis. We see everywhere controller, so it is natural. This is psychoanalysis, that there is a supreme controller. That is natural. Why defying this fact?
Prabhupāda: Evidently he is frustrated, without any knowledge of religion. He had no idea. He has seen that so many sentimental religious system, and he has concluded like that. But first of all let him understand what is religion. Religion cannot come into existence without understanding the idea of God. Religion without God cannot be religion. According to Vedic system, religion means the order given by God. But if one has no conception of God, that there is no question of religion. So Godless religion is, certainly, it is sentiment. That is not religion. So he has studied something which is not religion; therefore he has got so many doubts about religion. Real religion is that there is God, that is a fact, and whatever orders the God gives, that is religion. So he does not know what is God. How he will know what order He is giving? So for him everything is not religion.
Prabhupāda: First of all, he does not know what is religion. That is the defect in him. We say religion means the order given by God. Simple thing. But he has no conception of God. How he can get orders from God? Therefore how he can understand what is religion? He has got some ideas of fictitious religion, which is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitava, cheating. Cheating religion. That is not religion. Religion means, just like law. Law means the order given by the government. You cannot manufacture law at your home. That is not... Similarly, if somebody manufactures law at home and says that "I have manufactured one law. You take it," so who, what sane man will accept that law? "Sir, you keep your law in your pocket." Similarly, this so-called religious system, which is not given by God, that is just like outlaws. They are not religion. He has simply studied which is not religion. That is his defect. Real religion is the law given by God. So he has no conception of God, how he can understand what is religion? He has studied only pseudoreligion, cheating religion; therefore he is dissatisfied.
Prabhupāda: That, that means he has no clear conception of God, because God has to take power from some parliament. God does not take power from anyone. He is God. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that janmādy asya yataḥ anvayād itarataḥ ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ svarāṭ (SB 1.1.1), that the Supreme, God, or Supreme Truth, Brahman, He knows everything. He knows everything in details. And wherefrom? Abhijñaḥ. He is, abhijñaḥ means completely in awareness. Then the question may be raised that "How He got this complete knowledge? From whom He received?" The answer is immediate, svarāṭ. Svarāṭ means independent. That is God. If one has to take knowledge from Mr. Freud, then he is not God. Anyone, if you come to that person that He is independent, parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svābhāvikī (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport), naturally He is all-perfect. He hasn't got to become perfect by some process or from some authority. That is God. He is all-perfect automatically. That is God. So anyone who is trying to be perfect, he is not God. One who is... That, that, that is in the history, we find in the history of life of Kṛṣṇa. When He was three-months-old child He, He could kill big giant like Pūtanā. That is automatic. Either He is child or He is a young man or He is old man, the godly power is there. The nowadays these so-called yogis, they are becoming God by meditation, but the three-months-old child in the lap of His mother, how He became God? The God is God always. He hasn't got to learn it from anyone. That is His svarāṭ, independent. So these people have no conception of God; therefore they are simply speculating and misleading persons. God is not the subject matter of speculation. We, if we want to know God, then we must know it from God Himself or a person who knows Him.
Hayagrīva: He says, "The believer will not let his faith be taken from him, neither by argument nor by prohibitions, and even if it did succeed with some, it would be a cruel thing to do."
Prabhupāda: No. Anything, artificial teaching, that is cruelty. So that is being done by Mr. Freud also. Artificially he is stressing on sex and death and so on, so on, but that is not life. Real life is that to understand the simple truth. Just like..., who was protesting against father conception? That Mr. John, so and so?
Hari-śauri: Freud.
Hayagrīva: Freud.
Prabhupāda: Father. So how he can avoid this father conception? If you mislead people that there is no father conception, that is not education; that is misleading. Father is there, everyone knows this simple philosophy. And if he is misleading them, then that is not philosopher, that is cruelty. A man is naturally believing that there is father and there is father's father, and he is diverting his attention from this natural belief. So this is cruelty. He is committing cruelty to human understanding, simple understanding.
Prabhupāda: Man cannot do without education. Without education a man remains an animal. Therefore in the human society there is a school, college, an institution, teacher—not in the animal society. So the principle is, the man is meant for being learned or being educated. That you cannot deny, that man life should not be like cats and dogs, simply eating, sleeping, mating, and dying. That is not man's life. Man's life is to become advanced in knowledge and education. And as I have already described, the ultimate knowledge: to understand God. If he is so-called educated, without any understanding of God, then his education is imperfect. You can deny the existence of God, but the God conception is there in the human society. Some may accept it, some may not accept it—that is another thing—but the conception of God, the whole civilized world, they have got some type of religion. Either you become Christian or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, religion means there is some cultivation of knowledge to understand God.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you come to the platform of human being, there is one similarity: religion. It may be under different name. Even in the aborigines, there is religion. Just like Red Indian, they have a religion.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. And they have the same symbols, many of them.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that is a common concept. To accept some type of religion, this is common. Now, that type of religion may be different from me, but the principle is there. Just like eating principle is there, sleeping principle is there; similarly religious principle is there.
Śyāmasundara: And he said that each culture, or civilization, religion, they have the same understanding of the duality of existence, that there's an equal amount of dark, an equal amount of light, which he calls the yin and yang aspect or the anima and animus aspect. Under different names the same understanding is there in all religions.
Prabhupāda: Is that equality, darkness?
Prabhupāda: Means to become a religious person means to become a lover of God. Did he love God or something else?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He became very much religious, and all his disciples are very religious, but in sort of a mystic way, not, not so much an organized religion. A little bit of hodge-podge.
Prabhupāda: That is no (indistinct). Without clear conception of God, must be hodge-podge.
Śyāmasundara: But they lean toward the east, toward Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the end—Buddhism, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Buddhism?
Śyāmasundara: Tibetan Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Tibetan Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: Very good. Surrender. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That is real life. Śaraṇāgati, to surrender to God, to accept things which is favorable to God, to reject things which are unfavorable to God, always maintaining conviction that "God will give me all protection," and remain humble and meek, and think oneself as one of the members of God's family—that is spiritual communism. As the Communist they think a member of a certain community, similarly a man's duty is to think always as member of God's family. The same idea I was speaking, that God is the supreme father, material nature is the mother, and anything, any living entity coming out of material nature, they are all sons of God. So practically we see that all living entities coming out, either from land or from water or from the air—everywhere there is living entity—so the material nature is the mother. There is no doubt about it. And we have got experience that mother cannot produce child without connection with the father. So this is absurd to think that without father a child can be born. That is foolishness. Father must be there, and that supreme father is God. This conception of a spiritual family is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness.
Hayagrīva: Jung then found that the philosophies and theologies, at least of the West, could not give him a clear picture of God's personality. He concluded, "What is wrong with these philosophers? I wondered. Evidently they know of God only by hearsay."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was complaining, that none of these rascals have any clear idea of God. They are simply speculating. Therefore they cannot speak anything about religion or God, because they have no clear conception. But so far we are concerned, we have got clear conception of God: "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." And we want to give that conception to the world. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Person, Supreme God, by everyone, all authorities, past, present, future must be. So why they do not accept this personal God? If they have got any reason, if they have got any logic, any philosophy, here is Kṛṣṇa, perfect God. So He, according to Vedic scripture, He is complete, cent percent God. Other incarnation of God, they are not cent percent. It has been analyzed in our Nectar of Devotion. Up to Nārāyaṇa, ninety-four percent God, ah, ninety-six percent God. Lord Śiva, eighty-four percent God, Lord Brahma, er, eighty...
Hayagrīva: "I will bring with me what I have done. In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."
Prabhupāda: No. So you are, if you are regularly progressing, that then at the end it is not empty, it is completeness. To go back to home, back to Godhead, that is completeness; that is not empty. The Māyāvādī can not understand the posi..., positivity of God's kingdom, so they simply make empty. There is no positive concept, therefore...
Hayagrīva: No. He says... No. He says, "It is important that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, that nobody has...
Hayagrīva: That, in others words, he has good deeds and...
Prabhupāda: No, not only good deeds, that is our aspiration. We don't want emptiness.
Hayagrīva: ...composed of the conscious and also the subconscious.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is depending on the personality, and he is surrounded by so many conceptions. When the en..., what is called, (indistinct), we see different types of dreams, but when we are purified, then, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu was dreaming Kṛṣṇa's pastime. So similarly, when we are completely purified we dream also about Kṛṣṇa, His activities, His preaching, so many in connection with reference to Kṛṣṇa. So persona is permanent, but when we apply this persona in the material activities, that is temporary, false, false ego, and when the same persona is engaged as servant of Kṛṣṇa, that is self-realization.
Hayagrīva: He believed that the self, which is basically a personality...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. That they do not know. The same soul is, is passing through another gross body with his mental, intellectual identification. He is..., that is nature's gift. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). As we have infected a certain type of modes of nature, he is getting a similar body, but the person is the same.
Hayagrīva: Now the, this would be the view, the second view, that is reincarnation. "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality. Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born one is able, at least potentially, to remember that one has lived through previous existences, and that these existences were one's own, namely that he had the same ego form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."
Prabhupāda: Not human body. Just, we have got historical references in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. A king, Bhārata Mahārāja, he was king, and in next life he became a deer, and the next life he became a brāhmaṇa. So the soul is continuing, changing. The example is given, just like a man changes his dress. The man is the same; the dress may be different. That is going on. Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya (BG 2.22). This very word is there. Just when the dress is old it cannot be used any more, he has to change another, to another dress. It is very common sense. So now that next dress you have to purchase or you have to prepare according to your money. Your dress is something now; the next dress you will purchase according to your money. So the exact example is very nice—to change the dress. The man is the same, but he exchanges dress, and the dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. This is common sense. So the price means karma. According to karma he has done, he gets a particular type of body.
Prabhupāda: That I said, the spiritual body. The spiritual body never changes. When one comes with the spiritual body there is no change. Material body changes, but God has no material body. The conception of..., Māyāvādī conception that Absolute Truth is impersonal, when He comes as a person He accepts a material body, that is not understood by those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge or take information from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritāḥ (BG 9.11). Because He appears as a human being, rascals think that He is a human being, but He is not. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto. He has no knowledge of the spiritual body.
Hayagrīva: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovacio and applies to the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being. Well-known prototypes of this change are the transfiguration and ascension of Christ and the assumption of the mother of God into heaven after her death together with her body. In other words, the body is somehow..., it doesn't die, the gross body doesn't die, but it's transformed.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual, spiritual body continues. Spiritual body never dies. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So hanyamāne, destruction, is of the material body. The spiritual body is never destroyed. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. The spiritual body, neither it is generated, neither it is dead. Nityaḥ śāśvataḥ: it is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) it, it is not destroyed even after the destruction of the material body. That is spiritual body.
Hayagrīva: He says, "There must be a deep-seated change in the inner man." He also sees that modern man needs a guru, or someone, he says, "to explain religion to man. Whereas the man of today can easily think and understand all the 'so-called truths' dished out to him by the State, his understanding of religion is made considerably more difficult owing to the lack of explanations. Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?"
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). It is essential that one must go to guru and with guru Guru is representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. He, guru, being representative of God, he is worshiped as God, but he never says that "I am God." He is servant God. He is worshiped as God, but he is servant of God, and God is the master God. This is the conception of Vaiṣṇava philosophy. And who is guru, that is described by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He asked everyone to become guru. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā tāra' ei deśa: (CC Madhya 7.128) "Wherever you are staying, it doesn't matter. You become a guru and deliver all these foolish persons who are in ignorance." So one may say that "I am not so learned. How can I become guru?" So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that you do not require to be a learned scholar. There are many so-called learned foolish scholars. It has no meaning. You just instruct what Kṛṣṇa has instructed. Yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). So real instruction is there, Bhagavad-gītā, and any who explains Bhagavad-gītā as it is, he is guru. This is the definition of guru. So if one is fortunate enough to approach such guru, then his life becomes successful. Guru is essential.
Hayagrīva: He feels that the only thing that keeps modern man..., that will keep modern man from simply dissolving into the crowd is, he says, "We must ask, 'Have I any religious experience, an immediate relation to God and hence that certainty which will keep me as an individual from dissolving in the crowd of humanity?' " So one's relation with God assures one of one's individuality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is individual. God is also individual. So one individual is subordinate to the chief individual. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13), God is also individual being, but He is the Supreme Being, and we are individual being, innumerable. So the difference is that the supreme living being is maintaining us, and we are being maintained. That we should understand. The same example as I gave, the father and the children in the family. The father is maintainer and the children are maintained. This is the real conception of philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God, and we are all children. We have got rights to enjoy the father's property, but not encroaching upon others', but as it is allotted by the father. "You sit down here, you take this, that's all," that, that much right I have got. I do not transgress the order of the father; then it is peaceful situation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You will be ashamed. If you are not guided by a superior man, you'll be ashamed. But if you are guided by a proper man you won't be ashamed; you'll be glorious.
Śyāmasundara: He says that if a man considers himself as an object, he is afraid to look inside himself, then he will also consider other people as objects. And that is the cause of the basic sickness of the world, that we treat each other as objects instead as persons.
Prabhupāda: That is a wrong conception. Everybody is a person.
Śyāmasundara: What is your remedy for seeing everyone as persons?
Prabhupāda: That is the real vision: everyone is person.
Śyāmasundara: What is the remedy, what is the cure, for seeing everyone as a person?
Prabhupāda: You see or not see, everyone is a person. So what does it mean?
Śyāmasundara: Supposing I want to observe everyone in their personal manifestation, I want to see everyone as a person.
Prabhupāda: You are not seeing everyone as a person?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Hayagrīva: Probably the most famous of the French philosophers. Perhaps the most well known philosopher in this century. He calls himself an existentialist. He calls himself an atheistic existentialist in that he believes existence precedes essence. That the essence of man... According to creation by design, God has the essence of man in His mind, and He creates man just as a paper cutter creates some kind of a figure. Sartre doesn't believe this. He says, "Atheistic existentialism, which I represent, is more coherent. It states that if God does not exist, there is at least one being in whom existence precedes essence, a being who exists before he can be defined by any concept, and that this being is man, or human reality." So that for Sartre a human reality is all in all.
Prabhupāda: So wherefrom the human reality comes? There are no realities also, so why he is stressing on human realities?
Hayagrīva: There again, he would emphasize accident—he uses the word—that man is thrown into the world, or cast into the world.
Prabhupāda: Thrown by whom? "Thrown into the world," as soon you say like that, then the next question will be, "Thrown by whom?"
Prabhupāda: But he does not know what, what is the meaning of God. We have several times repeated this. God is the Supreme, Supreme Being. So we have defined in so many ways. Another thing that God is the Supreme, Supreme means He is supreme father. The Supreme everything means He is supreme father also. The conception of father is there. So as we are standing, we are talking with that gentleman priest, that mother nature, nature is giving, producing so many living entities. So she is supposed to be the mother. And as soon as we accept mother, there must be father. Mother cannot, alone cannot give birth to any offspring, so there must be the conception of father. And that is, practically we are seeing that mother nature... We say "mother nature" because she gives birth to so many forms of life, and if we accept mother, then you must to accept father, and that God is supreme father. How he can deny it? Father's duty is to maintain the children. So all living beings are being maintained, so there must be father. How he can deny that?
Prabhupāda: That means a rascal. A rascal can say that "I appeared without father and mother." That's not possible. So we say that everyone appears, not only human being. All animals, all plants, trees, everywhere—there are 8,400,000 species of life—they have appeared from these material elements. Either from the water... The fishes is appearing in the water, and the plants and trees, they are appearing on the land, and then insects, birds and everything. Everything is appearing. So material nature is the mother. That is accepted. So as soon as you accept mother there must be father. Where you get this conception that we are appearing without father and mother? How it, how it is possible?
Rāmeśvara: He just wants to put the question aside.
Prabhupāda: Why? This is the primary question, wherefrom you appeared.
Prabhupāda: Well, that means they could not reach to the ultimate goal of knowledge.
Dr. Rao: Not only that, but the scientists, really, they are changing like anything. Einstein developed the theory, and that theory was thought to be superior to that developed by Newton. Now another theory has been developed which is being thought to be superior than that of Einstein. So these things are only relative. The real scientist can see that all these things are relative. Everything is changing. Our conception of life—somebody says that sun is moving; somebody says earth is moving. But (indistinct) calculation you find that eclipse, lunar or..., (indistinct), it does not not matter which thing is moving and which thing is not moving. It is so complicated.
Prabhupāda: And the complicated things are so nicely (indistinct), that you know or do not know, it goes on. It doesn't matter.
Prabhupāda: So that program is already there. But if you create your own program, you do not follow the standard program. That is the defect.
Śyāmasundara: This program, because Skinner himself believes in Judeo-Christian ethics combined with a scientific tradition. But he fails to answer how it is possible to accept those ethics without accepting something like an inner person with an autonomous concept. In other words, he says we can program society to be good to your neighbor, to love one another, to be honest, upright, like that. But he is still not sure how it would be possible without accepting a free will.
Prabhupāda: The defect is that these programs are being forwarded by some rascal. Therefore they are defective. If they would have been forwarded by perfect man, then you would have actual (indistinct). Now one rascal is forwarding some program, another rascal next time (indistinct) this is true. So this is going on in Western world. Because according to Bhāgavata we belong to the category of dogs, hogs, camels.
Prabhupāda: He wants to play God.
Śyāmasundara: He wants to design the culture.
Prabhupāda: What is his conception of God?
Śyāmasundara: Senior qualities.
Prabhupāda: That's right. (laughter) We accept that. Nityo nityānām. (laughter) We accept that. That is Vedic. That is Vedic. He is also living being, but who is the superior, chief living being? That is Kṛṣṇa. Just like we are also living beings, but you accept me as chief of the society. Similarly, there are innumerable living entities all over the universes, all over the creation, but who is the chief of them? That is God, the leader. Our philosophy is to follow the leader, Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Reality must be there. That we... Just like Mr. Marx, he certainly did not like to die, but he was forced to die. Why it takes place unless there is some superior force? We do not wish to have some accident but there is accident; so how you can check it? So in this way, the conception of God, there is always some superior, and there are many other things, common sense, we discuss daily that the, as the nature, things are going on so nicely, they are not accidentally. There are so many planets in the sky. Accidentally they are not colliding but they are remaining in their position. The sun is rising in due course of time, in the morning exactly in time. So there is nothing accidental. And because things are going on very systematically, so there must be some brain behind it, and that supreme brain is God. How you can deny it?
Hayagrīva: They had a temple in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Well, he says, Marx says, "The incompatibility with religion with the rights of man is so little implied in the concept of the rights of man that the right to be religious according to one's liking and to practice one's own particular religion is explicitly included among the rights of man. The privilege of religion is a universal human right."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: So he felt that man should at least be allowed to practice his religion, although he felt that the state should encourage the abolition of religion. That it is an inherent human right for man to be able to practice religion...
Prabhupāda: That, that I explain always, that state duty is the freedom of religion, but the state must see that a person advocating particular type of religion, whether he is acting according to that religion...
Śyāmasundara: Well, this Mao Tse Tung's (sic:) systemology, or his method of knowing truth, of knowing things, is that first of all there is the perceptual, or the phenomenal, and this becomes the conceptual, or inferential. In other words, if you..., you can condition people to a certain type of truth by presenting some phenomenon repeatedly, over and over again, until they accept it, they make a conception: "This is the truth."
Prabhupāda: So that is our process. We say that perceptual fact is that we are controlled. Every one of us, controlled. Who can deny it? Why you are running on this fan? Because you are controlled. There is excessive heat controlling you. Therefore I am trying to counteract it. In every step you are controlled by the laws of nature. So how he thinks that he is independent? Why does he manufacture so many so-called laws of independence? In fact he is controlled. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). He is in contact with some modes of material nature, and he is controlled by them. So why does he not accept that "I am not independent, I am controlled. The basic principle is that I am controlled." Then if one is actually conversant with the laws of control, then he makes adjustment according to that. One being controlled, how he can become controller? This is phenomenon.
Prabhupāda: Why it cannot be done? Search out the cause. You don't want to die, but you are being forced to die. First of all, answer this problem. Otherwise, "Devils cite scripture." You first of all become perfect. Why you remain a devil? How you can cite scripture?
Pañcadraviḍa: Also his (indistinct) that "If we are imperfect, how can we govern?" Their whole slogan, Communist slogan is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." How can you get from a person according to his ability and how can you give according to his needs? If all the time there are the four errors of cheating propensity and so many other factors of imperfection are there, how can you possibly take a person and treat him as an individual and expect to have any kind of a reasonable conception of what he is capable of doing? (end)
Prabhupāda: Ought to be, how you'll know it? Unless he gets information from the higher authority what is ought to be? You cannot manufacture. If you are in the modes of ignorance, your "ought to be", just like they're saying the animals have no soul and we are saying, "No, you cannot kill animals." So we are in different position. So what is "ought to be", who will dictate? If you dictate yourself, your concept of killing, it "ought to be". And my concept of not killing, is "ought to be". So what is the standard?
Then you have to go to the authority, go for judgement.
Śyāmasundara: These German philosophers, they generally accept the Christian standard of morality to be what ought to be.
Prabhupāda: That's also good, but Christian morality, who is abiding by Christian morality? The Christian morality, in the beginning it is said "Thou shalt not kill," and they're all killing. So it will be very difficult to find out a real Christian who is following the morality. "Thou shalt not covet," and they're doing all this nonsense.
Hayagrīva: This is Fichte. He's not as important as Kant or Hegel, but he followed pretty much in the footsteps of Kant. His first work was entitled Our Belief in a Divine Government of the Universe, and he writes, "Our belief in a moral world order must be based on the concept of a supersensible transcendental world."
Prabhupāda: But thing is that what is morality? If he cannot define what is morality, simply saying on moral principles, what is this morality? First of all you have to understand what is morality. Simply imaginary moral principle. We want practical understanding what is morality. That they have not defined.
Hayagrīva: Not, not specifically.
Prabhupāda: Then what is immoral? Everyone will say this is morality. Just like we say, following the Vedic scripture, we say kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44), go-rakṣya, to give protection to the cows. So according to the scripture we would say it is morality, and somebody will say no, killing a cow in some religious place, mosque or synagogue, this is morality. So which one is morality?
Prabhupāda: So what is that standard? We say the order of Kṛṣṇa is standard. That's all. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is standard, that we have got some standard. Unless there is standard, you say conscience, high sense, morality... What is that? Define it. Just like we have got definition of God. I think nobody has got any definition of God. What is the standard that a person should be called God? I don't think... it is only in Vedic literature.
- aiśvaryasya samagrasya
- vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ
- jñāna-vairāgyayoś caiva
- ṣaṇṇām iti bhaga iṅganā
- (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47)
Clear. What is religion? Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). This is the definition of God, and dharma means the order of God. Everything is standard. What is their standard conception? And if you have no standard conception, simply imaginary morality, imaginary controller, imaginary God, how it will help us?
Hayagrīva: For Fichte the world has no objective reality outside of its being an instrument for the enactment of morality. He calls the world of the senses "the stuff of duty."
Prabhupāda: This is all vague. There is no definite direction.
Prabhupāda: Now if you do not know what is God, then how you will verify your duty is nice, all-good? What is the order of God, who is God, then where is your duty? You simply manufacture your duty. So everyone can do that. So what do you mean by duty? Duty means the order given by some superior and you follow, you do it. That is duty. But if you have no superior order, if you have no conception who is the superior, what is his order, then where is your duty? Simply by mental imagination. Is it? Does he say it like that?
Hayagrīva: Well, for him, outside of one's duty...
Prabhupāda: So what is one's duty?
Hayagrīva: Yes, well...
Prabhupāda: That he does not know.
Prabhupāda: So what is your duty? That God must be giving you the duty, "You do this," then you understand God; you know your duty. But if you have no conception of God, then where is your duty?
Hayagrīva: Well duty, one's duty...
Prabhupāda: These are vague philosophy.
Hayagrīva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Not philosophy. It is simply ambiguous speculation, that's all.
Hayagrīva: He was also ambiguous when it came to a personal Deity, but he seemed to lean toward impersonalism.
Prabhupāda: We shall see impersonalism. First of all impersonalism, if you stick to impersonal, then there is no specific understanding of the master who is giving you duty.
Prabhupāda: I am not attributing. God cannot be attributed! That is a false concept. I cannot manufacture God by giving my imaginary attributes. That is not God.
Hayagrīva: Well he feels that if you attribute personality to God, you are simply projecting yourself onto God.
Prabhupāda: No.
Hayagrīva: This is what he is saying.
Prabhupāda: He is saying, but it is not... Even if you attribute, it must be sensual. Just like, full of sense, just like we say "God is great." So at least we have got conception of greatness, so that must be in God. So we suppose a person very big, at least at the present moment if one is very rich. So then my attribution to God that He is the supreme richest person. That is quite reasonable. If we say God is the supreme wise, that is quite reasonable. So this definition given by Parāśara Muni, that aiśvaryasya samagrasya, that is perfect. Unless one is the richest of all, how can be the great? We have got some conception of greatness, so even if we attribute all the conception of great, that must be God. That is a reasonable definition. Everyone goes to pray to God, "Give us our daily bread." But if He is a poor man, then how can He supply bread? And everyone is praying, "God has to be kind to everyone to supply bread," so He must be very rich. Otherwise how He can supply bread? This is quite reasonable. If everyone comes to me to ask something, so I must be able to supply that thing. Otherwise how can I be God?
Prabhupāda: That, if there is water, that water is this well. How can there be more than this? And maybe big well, that's all. But that is his conception. So this conception will not help. You cannot create God. Just like we have got God, Kṛṣṇa. As soon as there was necessity to give protection to the inhabitants of whole Vṛndāvana, the torrents of rain, and it requires a big umbrella, and immediately He lifted the whole mountain: "Come on, under this, let Me see how long this torrents of rain go on. I shall hold." That is God. He... So He was seven-years-old boy. He was not a meditation God. Nowadays that the rascals are becoming God by meditation. What is meditation God? God is always God. Does it require meditation to become God? There are all these rascals, they are preaching, "You meditate and you become God. You think that 'I am moving the sun, I am moving the earth, I am...' " This is rascaldom. But Kṛṣṇa, He is not that kind of God. He is always God. Now it is necessary, "All right. Lift this." This is God. Aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya. Whole strength is there to lift the mountain. That is God.
Prabhupāda: This is also kind of meditation, speculating that "God should be like this." What is that? But they cannot define what is that, this.
Hayagrīva: He says, "The concept of God as a separate substance is impossible and contradictory."
Prabhupāda: God is everything. There is no question of separation. That is defined in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvam, "I am everything." So how He can be separate?
Hayagrīva: But he rejects God as a separate person.
Prabhupāda: He may reject, but God is everything. How he can reject God? The, the, these are the defects of speculators. They cannot give us tangible leading. That because they are defective themselves, so whatever interpretation they will give, all defective.
Hayagrīva: Oh, he would agree that God is everything.
Prabhupāda: That God is..., how he can reject? If God is everything, then how can he reject?
Prabhupāda: But that is..., that requires little brain. Those who are less intelligent or those practically no brain, simply cow dung, for them it is little difficult. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to cleanse this cow dung and make the brain pure. Then he will understand. Otherwise he is thinking God, "A person like me." But God is not like that. God is goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto (Bs. 5.37). He is person. He is in Vṛndāvana, Goloka Vṛndāvana, He is dancing with gopīs, playing with the cowherd boys—still He is everywhere. Not that "Now I am dancing I have no time to go everywhere." That is not. He may be engaged in dancing, but still He is everywhere, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-de... (BG 18.61). Now if He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana only, a person like us, then how He can say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā (BG 9.26)? We are offering some dates to Kṛṣṇa, so He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana, He may say, "I am now busy. How can I go to your temple and eat?" No. He is also temple, in the temple also. That is God. He is everywhere. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūto (Bs. 5.37). This is definition, akhilātma-bhūto. So he has no conception of God. He cannot imagine God. He must take the understanding... (break) ...because they have no standard knowledge. Everyone is manufacturing, so then there must be difference, because everyone is imperfect. You propose something imperfect, I propose something imperfect, so there must be disagreement.
Prabhupāda: That is our opinion. We accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme authority, and therefore we cannot refute what Kṛṣṇa says. And our philosophy is perfect because we follow Kṛṣṇa. He is the Supreme Perfect. This is our position. In other religious system, taking it our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement religious... It is religious, because our religion means the..., to carry out the order of God. That is the sum and substance of religion. We don't manufacture religion, and neither religion can be manufactured. Manufactured religion is useless. That has been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, er, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as dharma kaitava. Means cheating. So this is not cheating religion. Our basic principle is dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma means the order which is given by God, and if you execute that, that is dharma. Just like law. Law is given by the government. You cannot manufacture law. That is not law. So our perfection is there, how we are executing the order of God cent percent. One who has no conception of God, neither the order of God, they can manufacture religious system. But our system is different.
Prabhupāda: That is preliminary stage of understanding the Absolute. Because the..., the beginning, Brahman realization, impersonal, and then further advanced Paramātmā realization, localized, God is everywhere. And God is everywhere, that's a fact. That is God. But He has got His place, abode. That is God, that goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhuto (Bs. 5.37), that God is Person, He has His own abode, He has his own associates and everything. Difference is that although He is in His abode, He is present everywhere, even within the atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). So Socrates or any other philosopher, they cannot understand the potency of God, how He can remain in His own place, simultaneously in every atom. That is the conception of God. So everywhere He is staying. Everything is His expansion, His energy, the bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca (BG 7.4). The material world is bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ-land, water, earth, air. So these are different expansion of God's energy. So He can be present everywhere because His energy is expanded everywhere. So energy and the energetic, they are not different, but at the same time energy is not the energetic. This simultaneously one and different, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, this is perfect philosophy.
Hayagrīva: This is the additional notations on Plato. For Plato, the spiritual world is not a mental conception. For Plato, truth is the same as the ultimate reality, the ideal or the highest good, and it is from this that all manifestations and cognitions flow. Plato uses the word "idea" in order to denote a subject's primordial existence, or maybe it's archetype. I think that Kṛṣṇa uses the word bījam.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hayagrīva: Bījam, seed, "I am the seed of all existence"?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Hayagrīva: For instance...
Prabhupāda: Bījāhaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, that even the spiritual world and material world, everything is emanation from Him. The difference is, in the material everything is created and maintained then annihilated. In the spiritual world that is not the case. Just like material world this body, and spiritual world the soul. The body is created, maintained and annihilated; the soul is not. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20).
Hayagrīva: Now you said to Śyāmasundara that water existed before our mental conception of H2O. We conceive of H2O, we think of well, what is..., we begin to analyze water, and we say, well, it's two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. But before we even began to think of this, water existed.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Therefore H2O is not the permanent essence or the primordial existence of water, but what Plato is saying is that everything that exists has its seed or essence or idea.
Prabhupāda: Seed is originally with Kṛṣṇa.
Hayagrīva: Yes. The seed is, then, Kṛṣṇa says bījam, "I am the seed..."
Prabhupāda: Bīja ahaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. Whatever is manifest, the original God had.
Hayagrīva: That... Is that the bījam is the unmanifest...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: ...is the unmanifest essence of an object.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: But there is no mention of God as a person, although he says He's pure form. Is this an imagined form like the Māyāvādīs may imagine a form?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has got the tilt of Māyāvāda. That is his imperfect knowledge of God. Because he does not receive knowledge from God, he speculates; therefore his knowledge is imperfect.
Hayagrīva: Aristotle's belief in the soul changed. He has three conceptions of the soul. One is that the soul is a separate substance, another is that the body is the instrument of the soul, and the third is the soul is the form of the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this can be explained. The body is just like the dress of the soul. So our dress is made according to our body. The tailor takes the measurement of the body and makes the coat accordingly. So the coat appears with the hand because we have got hand. Coat, pant appears as a leg because we have got leg. So this body is simply a, what is called, coating or shirting of the soul. Actually the soul has got form, shape, form, and therefore the cloth, which will generally have no shape, is, when it comes in contact with the soul, it becomes a shape.
Hayagrīva: Accepted in..., the soul living in animals and also in plants.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the fact. He is right. That is Vedic conclusion. Sarva-yoniṣu, all different forms of life, there is soul, part and parcel of God. How some foolish person can think of animal has no soul? What is the reason? There is no very strong argument. The animals may be less intelligent. A child may be less intelligent than the father; that does not mean there is no soul. This gross and doggish mentality, animal mentality, is killing the human civilization. Now they have degraded so much that they think that the embryo has no soul. In this way man is being put into darker and darkest region of ignorance. Everyone has soul. That is real. We get it from Kṛṣṇa: sarva-yoniṣu. In different forms of life the soul is there, undoubtedly. That is real conception of soul. Evolution means he is evolving from one lower grade of body to another, higher grade of body, and in this way by evolution he comes to the human form of life. And in this human form of life he can understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā, that if he likes, he can surrender to the Supreme Lord and go back to home, back to Godhead, and if he does not, then he remains in this material world, undergoing the tribulations of the repetition of birth, death, old age, and disease. Corporal body.
Hayagrīva: Concerning evil, Plotinus feels that matter is evil in the sense that it imprisons the soul, but the visible cosmos...
Prabhupāda: This is our conception. This Plotinus is all, all our, practically ninety percent our conception. This is the...
Hayagrīva: But the visible cosmos is beautiful, and the evil does not arise from the creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material world—sometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going on—sometimes elevated, sometimes degraded—and in this way they will..., individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition.
Hayagrīva: Although most of his philosophy is impersonal—his conception of God is mainly impersonal—he writes, "Let us flee then to the beloved fatherland. Here is sound council. But what is this flight? How are we to gain the open sea? The fatherland for us is there whence we have come. There is the father." So he does some..., have some conception, it seems, of God as father.
Prabhupāda: He, he is confused because he is also speculating. So these things will remain confused, whether the Absolute Truth is person, imperson. Generally, without spiritual advancement nobody can understand about the Absolute Truth, and so he, that doubt continues. But when there is question of love between the Absolute and the relative, there must be the personal conception, and actually He is person, Kṛṣṇa. So by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, when he gets in touch with the devotee, his impersonal conception of the Absolute is removed, and then he worships the personal aspect of the Absolute Truth, Kṛṣṇa, and devotee. Then his life is successful.
Hayagrīva: Just as man's free will brought about his fall, man's free will can also bring about his salvation. By becoming detached from matter, man can return to God, but this detachment from matter is brought about by the assistance of the Christ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our conception also, that the fallen soul is rotating within this material world, within this universe, up and down in different forms of life, and in his developed condition of understanding he is enlightened by God as it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā, and the spiritual master gives him full enlightenment. Then what he says, the perfection?
Hayagrīva: His detachment from matter...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When he understands his pleasing, as situation with God, paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate... (BG 2.59). When he understands the transcendental pleasing situation of his life, he automatically gives up this material bodily attachment. That is his freedom. And when he actually, in his spiritual identity, engaged in the service of the Lord, that is his normal position.
Prabhupāda: Then how God is all-pervading? The Paramātmā conception is there in the Brahma-saṁhitā:
- eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ
- yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara...
- (Bs. 5.35)
One part of His feature, eko 'py asau. Racayitum, creation, this creation is done by one plenary portion of His person, the puruṣa-avatāra, the Mahā-Viṣṇu, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, in expanding. So, and not only one universe but millions of universes, jagad-aṇḍa-koṭim. And in the Bhagavad-gītā also same thing is confirmed, atha vā bahunaitena kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna, ekāṁśena, viṣṭabhya aham, sthito jagat: "By My one plenary portion I expand throughout all the universes, all the living entities. Even within atom I am present." So unless God has got that omnipresence potency everywhere, then how He can be omnipresent? This is one meaning. He is everywhere present by His expansion of His one plenary portion.
Hayagrīva: So again we see the Christian conception that God created the soul out of nothing.
Prabhupāda: No. The soul is created and... Actually not created. Soul is existing along with God, just like the sparks of fire is existing with the fire. But the difference between the two fire is that the sparks may be separated from the big fire, and when it is separated, is loses its illumination. Similarly, an individual soul is already there. The master is there and the servants are there, eternally. Just like the body is there, the parts of the body are also there. We cannot say that the parts of the body is separately created. As soon as the body is there, the fingers of the body are there, the other limbs and parts of the body are all there. The soul is never created or never dead. It is explained in the Bhāgavata, na jāyate vā mriyate vā. Soul has neither creation nor death. It appears, because the soul has accepted this material body, with the end of this material body it appears that somebody is dead. But he is not dead. He simply transfers from this body to another body, and when he is liberated, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body.
Hayagrīva: He also writes, "If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Because religion means the orders given by God. So if we faithfully carry out the orders of God, then that is religion. But if we don't carry out the orders of God, this is cheating religion. That is not religion. That is condemned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. That cheating religion are kicked out from the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So any religious system which has no conception of God and does everything, every year changes by resolution of the priests, that "Now this is all right," against religious principles—that is a farce. That is not religion.
Hayagrīva: This is by way of saying that we should not accept our faith blindly, but at the same time we should not expect everything to be comprehensible to our understanding.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That just like the father and the child. The father says, "You do this." So that is all-comprehensive. The father's idea is complete; it is good for the son. But the son says, "No. I want to act in this way." That is his folly. Similarly, what God says, that is religion, and... So there is no question of blind following. If you know, "Here is God. He is all-perfect, and whatever He is saying, that is all-perfect. Let me accept it," then you are gainer. And if apply your reasoning and change it according to your whims, then you suffer.
Prabhupāda: Right. But as everything is God, as Spinoza thinks that his... What is his position of bad? What is his conception?
Hayagrīva: That God is beyond good and...
Prabhupāda: God is beyond, but what is his position of evil? Evil is there, but he said that God has no evil. Then wherefrom the evil comes?
Hayagrīva: Seems inconsistent.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hayagrīva: He writes...
Prabhupāda: We, we say that God... Good and evil, they are also emanation from God. Evil is the back side and good is the front side.
Prabhupāda: Anything you take, that is perfection of knowledge in God. Which thing is not related with God? Everything is related with God. In the material world anything you will take it is made of the five elements, but these five elements, they are expansion of God's energy. So intelligent person sees in everything with reference to God's expansion of energy. That is the position of devotee. He does not think anything separate from God. And as he is lover of God, devotee of God, he wants to engage everything, because if everything is God's property, that should be used for God's benefit. This is devotee's conception. The asuras, they have no conception of God. Neither they are obedient to God, neither lover of God. He thinks the material world is for his enjoyment. He cannot see the material world is expansion of God's energy. Therefore anyone who uses the material product for his personal benefit, he is called a thief. Just like I have created something. If somebody use up that something and does not think of the proprietor, he is a thief. Thief means, in our childhood we got a definition of thief, that anything taken without the permission the property is theft. That is very nice. So anything in this world has reference to the expansion of energy of God. So if you do not take everything as prasādam, then you are thief and you are punishable. A thief is always punished. So therefore those who are enjoying things without reference to the God, they are all demons and they are punishable. They are thieves.
Hayagrīva: That's all on Spinoza. (end)
Hayagrīva: And John Locke, Locke is the..., is most famous for his conception of tabula rasa, or blank slate, that a child is born with no innate ideas. He states that "If there are innate or inborn ideas, all men would have them." That is to say, there would be universal consent. He writes, "This argument of universal consent, which is made use of to prove innate principles, seems to me a demonstration that there are none such because there are none to which all mankind give a universal consent." So it cannot be argued that all people have an innate or inborn idea of God since there is no universal consent on this subject. Well, do innate ideas have to be universal? Might not some living entities have some innate ideas and other living entities have others? Why does an innate idea have to be universal and apply to everyone?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Innate idea is that there is somebody. That is developed consciousness. The animals, they cannot think, on account of nondeveloped consciousness, but even in human society, uncivilized society, they have got the innate idea of some superior form. When there is lightning, they offer obeisances. When they see big ocean, they offer obeisances, something big. So that innate idea is universal, to offer obeisances to something wonderful. But this innate idea of accepting something supreme and offering respect is not developed in the animal. So this innate idea is there. When it is not developed, it is animal, and when it is developed, then it is human being. And a perfect human being is he, when he has developed this innate idea to the fullest stage. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Hayagrīva: Universally, not everyone acknowledges that Kṛṣṇa is God, so he would say that idea is not inborn in the mind.
Prabhupāda: No. In the material world they have got different ideas. That undeveloped mind has got different ideas, but developed, what is called, idea or conception, perfect conception is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So if one remembers Kṛṣṇa consciousness after his birth, that means he had previously cultivated. There is a verse, you can find out: ataḥ. Find that.
Devotee: Gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The word begins ataḥ paurva-dehikam. You can stop the machine and find it. (break) You can record it. Tatra taṁ paurva-dehikam buddhi-saṁyogam. Yes, that is. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness, culture of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is never lost. It goes on, unless it is perfect. Therefore it is stated, sv-alpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Even little acting on Kṛṣṇa consciousness can save one from the greatest danger—as it was done by Ajamila. He cultivated Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the beginning of his life, then he fell down, he became the greatest debauch. But at the end of life again he remembered Nārāyaṇa and he got salvation. Tatra taṁ buddhi-saṁyogam (BG 6.43). Read Bhagavad-gītā carefully. All answers are there. This philosopher cannot go beyond Bhagavad-gītā.
Hayagrīva: He writes, "The knowledge of our own being we have by intuition. The existence of a God, reason dearly makes known to us. We have a more certain knowledge of the existence of a God than of anything our senses can discover." Now how is this? If this is the case, how is it that some men have no conception of God?
Prabhupāda: He has conception of God, practically, but because under the spell of māyā he has become foolish, he tries to cover that conception, that somebody is there. How any sane man can deny that some superior power is there who has created this vast ocean, vast land, vast sky? How one sane man can avoid this conception? Nobody can avoid, but artificially, foolishly, he tries to avoid. Atheism. But that will not endure, that will not stay. His foolishness will be exposed. So this is innate idea, but the atheist class, demon class, they want to cover this innate idea artificially.
Prabhupāda: The nature's course is that because we have disobeyed God, therefore we are thrown into this material world under the supervision of the material nature to correct him. So, so long he is in the material world, there is distinction between moral and immoral. Although both of them are material, it has, actually has no meaning, moral or immoral. But in the material world that conception is there, moral or immoral. But when one is in the spiritual world, there is no such thing as immoral; everything is moral. Just like gopīs, they were others' wives, but they were coming to Kṛṣṇa in dead of night. That is immoral. But because they are coming to Kṛṣṇa, it is not immoral. Therefore in the spiritual world there is no such thing as moral or immoral. Everything is moral. In the material world there must be moral and immoral; otherwise this material transaction cannot go properly.
Hayagrīva: So much for Berkeley. (end)
Prabhupāda: His image, if God is absolute, His image is also God. If God is absolute, then His words are also God. That is absolute conception. That iw not different. So the image which we worship in the temple, if it is actually image of God, then it is as good as God. God is absolute. God says that "This earth, water..., so everything is My energy." So even if you say, "This image is made of stone," but the stone is God's energy, bhūmi, earth. So there is a regulative principle, just like a wire, a copper wire, it is carrying electricity. Although the copper wire is not electricity, but it is carrying electricity. Similarly, if you take even material-otherwise spiritually everything is God, that is another thing—but materially if we distinguish that the copper wire, it appears as copper wire, but if you touch, "Oh, there is electricity." So it is manipulated. Similarly, by the rules and regulation as enunciated by the experienced spiritual master and guru, then even if you think it is stone, it is God. The same example, you see it is electric wire, but it is electricity. Similarly, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. It is..., this has been warned: don't think that this śilā, stone. Is God. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as saw Jagannātha, immediately fainted. So we have to be trained up by the instruction of God how to realize God everywhere.
Hayagrīva: He says the grandeur of Indian religion and poetry as well as Indian philosophy have been acknowledged especially in their rejection and sacrifice of the senses. Now his conception is typical nineteenth century...
Prabhupāda: He has no study of the Vedic literature; still he poses himself to remark on the Vedic literature. That is his ignorance.
Hayagrīva: He considers the goal of Indian philosophy to be spiritual as well as physical extinction. Nirvāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Physical extinction, everyone says that—even Christian religion says—you go to hell, go to heaven. So who goes to heaven? Who goes to heaven? What is the qualification? Reasonably, one who has given up this physical.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So if he accepts God and he inducts a man, the man should take knowledge from God about God. The his knowledge of God is perfect. He should not speculate. And if he has no such source of taking knowledge from God, then his conception of God is also false. If he has got actually the conception of God, then he should take knowledge from God what He is. That is perfect knowledge. He was talking of Oriental knowledge. This is Oriental knowledge: they know who is God and they take knowledge from God about God. But here, Occidental, they speculate about God. What they will know about God? Whatever they speculate, that is imperfect, because he is imperfect.
Hayagrīva: He equates idea, reason, God, and the Absolute very much like the Greeks.
Prabhupāda: Everything is there, but if you take knowledge from God, then that is perfect, and if you make your own ideas—you do not take the ideas of God—that is imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Either you be Englishman or Frenchman or this man, you cannot survive. You have to succumb under the dictation of the superior nature. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that—I think Huxley read Bhagavad-gītā; he does not know-that,
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
This kind of conception, that "I shall survive, I am Englishman," this is a false egotism and bewildered soul. Whatever he may be, Englishman or this man or that man, he must die. That is the law of nature. So intelligent man first of all makes provision "How I shall not die." That is real business of human being. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that if one simply understands Kṛṣṇa, then he survives; otherwise one has to die. There is no doubt.
Prabhupāda: We say "without any authority."
Hayagrīva: When Huxley became a Darwinist he rejected a supernatural God and the Bible. In For Argument from Design... He believed in, previously he believed in a Christian God as the designer, but he believed that Darwin's theory gave this Christian conception its death blow. He did not accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical... Excuse me. He did accept a pantheistic God, like Spinoza did, as being identical with nature. That is, he saw God as nature, and he believed in the divine government of the universe. He believed that the cosmic process is rational, not random...
Prabhupāda: How it becomes rational?
Hayagrīva: ...but he rejected a personal God concerned with morality.
Prabhupāda: That is his defect. The nature is dead body, matter. So how it can be rational? Just like this table is a dead wood. How it can be rational? That is nonsense. The carpenter is rational, who has made the wood in the shape. So he says the nature is rational. Nature is dead matter. How it can be rational? Therefore there is a rational being behind the nature. That is God. This, the wood, is dead. The wood, out of its own accord, cannot become a table. The carpenter is shaping the wood into table. That is rational.
Prabhupāda: This, this, this sense should be explained. Because God is infinite, He has infinite Deities also. That is infiniteness. He is presented as Deity; that is infinitely of varieties. That is infiniteness. Why he is sticking to one Deity? That is his not understanding the meaning of what is infinite. That is explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā, advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam (Bs. 5.33). Ananta-rūpam: He has Deity infinitely. That is infinity. Because He is infinite, He has no Deity—that is not real conception. He is infinite and He has got infinite Deity forms.
Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body, being the whole universe of space/time, is the source of the categories but not itself subject to them."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if God is Deity, He is also not subject to these created living being. That is condemned. When one thinks God's Deity as one of the deities within this material world, he is condemned as mūḍha. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam: (BG 9.11) "Because I appear just like a human being, the rascals, asses, they think of Me as ordinary human."
Hayagrīva: Now he analyzes theism, which is the personal aspect, and pantheism, the impersonal aspect, and he finds both defective in themselves, and so what is his position? This is his position: "If the question is asked whether the speculative conception of God or Deity which has been advanced here as part of the empirical treatment of space/time, and has appeared to be verified by religious experience belongs to theism or pantheism, the answer must be that it is not strictly referable to either of them. Taken by itself..."
Prabhupāda: That is his mistake. As you have explained that the sky is also with reference to God... The sky is explained as the heart of God, and the water is explained as the semina of God, the moon is explained as the mind of God, the sun is explained as the eyes of God, the land is explained as the foot of God. So everything is with reference to God. So for a person who understands God, there is nothing existing without God. So how God can be separate? That is the fact. So pantheism or any "ism" you take, it has reference with God. What he says?
Hayagrīva: He says, "God's body is not spaceless nor timeless, for it is space/time itself."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything emanates from Him, so there is nothing separate from God. God includes everything. That is the conception of God. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Everything has emanated from Him.
Hayagrīva: This is the final point. He says, "Concerning the existence of the evil..."
Prabhupāda: This description is very nice.
Hayagrīva: The description on the...?
Prabhupāda: The last description.
Hayagrīva: That last description. That the living entities are fragments of God's body...
Prabhupāda: Everything...
Hayagrīva: ...but their individuality is not lost.
Prabhupāda: Everything that you will see, they are all part and parcel of God. The other day I was saying that the wheel, the whole wheel is resting on the axle. So axle is there, the wheel is moving, so everything is part and parcel of God. Therefore the Māyāvādī's philosophy that everything is one, yes, but they do not accept the variety. The wheel is one, that's all right, but still the parts, sometimes it is called spokes, sometimes it is called the rim, sometimes it is called the hub, sometimes it is rolling, sometimes it is stopped, but everything the wheel, nothing but wheel.
Hayagrīva: He says, "Even the laws of the solar system are very far from perfect. The increasing imperfection of the economy of nature becomes a powerful stimulus to all our faculties, whether moral, intellectual or practical. Here we find sufferings which can really be alleviated to a large extent by wise and well-sustained combination of efforts." Another way, in other words, man can improve on nature. "Those who look wisely into the future of society will feel that the conception of man becoming without fear or boast, the arbiter, within certain limits, of his own destiny, has in it something far more satisfying than the old belief in providence, which implied our remaining passive." So he felt that man's improvement on nature is better than a passive belief in God.
Prabhupāda: So he is..., he does not believe..., there is no belief in God is there? There is no question of? No. But our point of view is different: that God is the ultimate decider of everything. That is called daiva-netreṇa. He may be acting through different agents, but ultimate decision is given by Him. And He is sitting in everyone's heart. He is observing the activities of the individual soul as witness, giving permission. Without God's permission, nobody can act. So He is giving intelligence also, and He is the cause of forgetting. Two things are there, remembering and forgetting. Both these things are coming from God. If He keeps him in forgetfulness, then he cannot remember, and if He gives him the power to remember, he can remember for long, long past activities. So ultimately God is the final director. That is our conception. Man cannot remain independent. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Everything is being done, impelled by the three material modes of nature, and the ultimate dictator is the Supersoul, or the Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect, situated everywhere in the heart of the living entity, or even within the atom He is there, and His is the supreme director.
Prabhupāda: So without religion, without spiritual ideas, then what is the difference between dogs and man? There is no difference. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. That is the verdict of Vedic civilization. If you do not know what is the spiritual necessity of life, and for awakening his spiritual interest of life the religious system is introduced in the human society... But in that, of course so-called religion system will not help. Therefore we repeatedly say religion means the execution of the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, no conception, no idea what is God's order, then there is no religion also. That is not religion. So that kind of religion is also, can be neglected, but religion must be there. Otherwise the human society becomes another edition of the animal society.
Hayagrīva: Well, his conception of religion is that of the..., having, playing some music, and uh, daliance with the supernatural, intellectual aesthetic enjoyment. He says, "What else does organized religion provide?" Religion is a form of, sort of enjoying art.
Prabhupāda: No. Art is there, and singing is there, dancing is there, but that is based on spiritual conception. That is the difficulty in the Western countries, that they are not fully aware of the conception of religion. Therefore Bhāgavata says that cheating religion, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavaḥ. There is no purpose, simply a recreation of different nature in material life. That is, means, they do not know, except sense gratification, any other engagement. They think religion is also another kind of, type of sense gratification, "So we can perform it." And actually that is going on. Whenever there is some festival they change the daily way of life into some more eating, drinking, and dancing, like that. But religion means to understand God and our relationship with God and live in God practically. That is real religion. That is the aim of life.
Purports to Songs
So he's reques... "I am requesting that you worship Lord Kṛṣṇa who is abhaya-caraṇa." Abhaya-caraṇa means He's the fearless shelter. If we take shelter of Kṛṣṇa, then we become free from all anxieties. Just like a helpless child, when he's taken care of by his parents, he becomes careless, carefree, not careless, carefree. "Similarly, I am requesting, my dear mind, you do not drive in this way, dangerously. Please worship Lord Kṛṣṇa who is fearless shelter." Bhajahū re mana śrī-nanda-nandana-abhaya-caraṇāravinda re: "His lotus feet is fearless shelter." One who takes shelter... As the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Now, either you say Kṛṣṇa or you say Superconsciousness... Superconsciousness is impersonal conception of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa is personal conception of Superconsciousness. Because Kṛṣṇa means He's not only superconscious, but He's supreme bliss and supreme knowledge—supreme knowledge means superconsciousness—and eternal, supreme consciousness, supreme bliss. That is the definition of Kṛṣṇa. Now, then the devotee says that durlabha mānava-janama sat-saṅge taroho e bhava-sindhu re. Now, this body, this human body, is durlabha. Durlabha means very valuable. It is obtained with, after a great struggle of existence.
All the functions of all other parts of the body, He function by any part of His body, not that a particular part of the body can function only for a particular purpose, no. Just like simply by glancing... In the Vedic literature it is said, sa aikṣata sa asṛjata: "Simply by seeing, simply by seeing, He impregnated all the energies for creating, simply by seeing." Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Simply by His glance. Simply by His glance He impregnates the material energy for functioning. It is going on. So He has got all the potencies in all the parts of His body. Aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti paśyanti pānti kalayanti (Bs. 5.32). That is the difference between His body and our body. So when there is description in the Vedas that "He has no leg, no hand, no eyes, "that does not mean He has no eyes. He has got eyes, but not these eyes just like we have got conception. So here it is explained that aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛtti-manti (Bs. 5.32). His parts of the body are invested with all the potencies of other parts of the body. With any part of His body He can function any work.
"Either you are born in a very big family or nation, or either you have got a very advanced academic education, at the time of death your work will be judged and you will get another body according to that work. So vidyā kule ki koribe tār. Why they are doing so, these animals, human animals? Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā: "They have become maddened by a false concept of the bodily life." Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā: "And for this reason they have completely forgotten their eternal relationship with Nityānanda." Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā, nitāi-pada pāsariyā, asatyere satya kari māni: "Such forgetful persons accept the illusory energy as fact." Asatyere. Asatya means which is not fact. In other words, it is called māyā. Māyā means which has no existence, a temporary illusion only. So such persons who have no contact with Nityānanda, they accept this illusion as fact, this illusory body as fact. Asatyere satya kori māni.
| Page Title: | Conception (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 21 of Sep, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=239, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 239 |