Prabhupāda: They kill the grandfather and have a feast, the cannibals. Yes. That is a great sport, that the grandsons will kill the grandfather and have a feast on his body by toasting.(?) Yes. The same idea is being preached by the communists. They want that all old man of the society, they should be killed. That is one of the theories put forward by the communists. Because they are not producing anything. So just imagine, these things will come gradually. So better to leave this place as soon as possible. Not to come again. That should be our serious attention. The other day the radio man was asking, "Swamiji, how to adjust?" "And there is no adjustment. You have to go out of the scene. There is no adjustment." So he was not very happy. If I would have bluffed him, "Oh, you do this, you do that, you do this humanitarian work, you spread(?) education and give foodstuff." No! There is no adjustment. The only adjustment is quit this place.
Communism (Conv. 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is not our policy. This is... In one sense, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the post-graduate study of all religions. What is the method of religion? To accept the authority of God. That is the primary principle of every religion, may be Christian religion or Hindu religion or Mohammedan religion. It doesn't matter. But people are becoming godless. That is the problem. They are thinking that "There is no God. Nature is everything." That is their foolishness. They are unhappy for this godlessness. And as a result of this godlessness, the Communist party have sprang up, the hippies have sprang up and so many other things will gradually spring up. So there is no check. It is... The only check is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if people are taught that he can be happy only by reestablishing his eternal relationship with God. So our test of religion is how one has developed his God consciousness or love of God.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Guest (6): Asoka Kumar.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, I remember. So please, after finishing your education you come and join this great movement. They are joining Communist movement, this movement, that movement. Why not a real genuine movement for the welfare of the whole?
Guest (6): I am not joining any...
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say...
Guest (6): I want to join...
Prabhupāda: Generally they join. Generally they join.
Guest (6): My brother also agrees to stay with you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Modern sociology is targeting the state or the people as the owner of a certain state, but our Vedic conception is īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvaṁ: (ISO 1) "Everything is owned by Īśa, the Supreme Controller." Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā: "What is given by Him, allotted to you, you enjoy that." Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam: "But we not encroach upon others' property." This is Īśopaniṣad, Vedas. And the same idea is explained in different Purāṇas. So the Vedas can give you... The other day I was reading in the, that paper, Moscow News, there was a congress, Communist congress, and the president declared that "We are ready to get others' experience to improve." So I think the Vedic concept of socialism or communism will much improve the idea of communism. Just like we are thinking in terms of human beings, the commu..., socialistic state, that "Nobody should starve. Everyone must have his food." And in the Vedic conception of gṛhastha, householder, it is recommended there that a householder shall see that even a lizard living in the room or even a snake living in that house should not starve. They should be also given food. And what to speak of others? The gṛhastha, before taking his lunch, he is recommended to stand on the road and declare that "If anybody is still hungry, please come. Food is ready." Then, if there is no response, then the proprietor of the household life, he takes his lunch. In this way there are so many good concept about this socialistic idea of communism. So I thought that these ideas might have been distributed to some of your thoughtful men. Therefore I was anxious to speak with you.
Prabhupāda: It is impossible. Our idea is that best ideas from the original idea. Just like in the Bhāgavata there is a description of communistic idea, and it is being described to Mahārāja Yudhisthira. So if there is something good, good experience, why it should not be adopted? That is our point of view. And besides that, in the modern civilization they are missing one point: the aim of human life, scientifically. The aim of human life is self-realization, ātmā-tattvam. It is said, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ yāvan na jijñāsa ātmā-tattvam. Unless the human society comes to the point of self-realization, whatever they are doing, they are being defeated, parābhava. I think you know this word, parābhava. Parābhava. Parābhavas tāvad abodha-jātaḥ. So actually it is happening so. The modern society, human society, there is advancement, economic advancement, so many things, advancement. Still, in the matter of keeping peace and tranquility there is fight, individually, socially, politically, nationally. So if we think very cool-headed, then in spite of so much improvement in so many branches of knowledge, we are keeping the same mentality of quarreling.
Prabhupāda: So if you can arrange some program, it is all right. There are... It is all right.
Śyāmasundara: Is there any possibility Swamiji could lecture at the institute itself in the next day or two?
Prof. Kotovsky: I don't think because, you know, now it is vacation time. (break)
Prabhupāda: "...Vedic Concept of Communism," "Knowledge by Authorized Tradition," and what was the other?
Śyāmasundara: "Scientific Values of..."
Prabhupāda: "Scientific Classless Society." This subject matter I wanted...
Prof. Kotovsky: Have you put into writing these three subjects somewhere?
Prabhupāda: I asked... Because I could not contact him, therefore I asked the ambassador. But unfortunately they said that "We did not receive any letter like that." So you can note down if you like.
Kulaśekhara: When we were in New York, one boy...
Prabhupāda: No, there will be fight. That is the prediction of great politician. There will be war between these Communist and anti-Communist. There are two parties now. The anti-Communist will be defeated. The Communists will come out victorious.
Śyāmasundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost.
Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities, not only human beings. Birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, or transcendental, communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder would stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Well, that professor wanted to hear, that's all right. So I... My conclusion was that "Your communistic idea has not very much improved from our idea, because you cannot do without surrendering. Our Kṛṣṇa philosophy is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). So your surrendering process is there. You have not improved. You say God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not good, but you have not improved, because instead of Kṛṣṇa, you have surrendered to Lenin. That's all. So you have to surrender in any circumstance. Either you become communist or this 'ist' or that 'ist,' you have to surrender."
Reporter: That's it. And you will go to (indistinct)?
Prabhupāda: This is a fact. This is a fact. You have to surrender to your senses. That's all. And we are simply recommending surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. That's all. By surrendering to senses you are not happy, but if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa you will be happy. Your surrender is there always. You cannot say that "I don't surrender to anybody." That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: You cannot put a cart before a horse. That is not possible. Of course, the Communists, they are trying to do that, but they have also failed. I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society... Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the leg, nor the leg can do the work of the head.
Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swamiji...
Prabhupāda: That is wanted.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that "No more any sacrifice or yajña. Stop all this nonsense. No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." (chuckles) Yes, they... Just like in Russia we are afraid or China, yes. They will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na, no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government... Our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russians, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russians, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi.
Prabhupāda: They say, "Oh, it is better to kill him than to give him so much..." That theory is coming in communist country. That an old man, grandfather, is suffering. Better kill him. And there, in Africa, there is a class of nation they eat, make a festival, by killing great-grandfather and grandfather. Is it not? Yes.
Śyāmasundara: They eat them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Huh?
Pañcadraviḍa: I had an uncle and aunt. They were in the army so when they went overseas, they could not take their dog with them. So they said, "The poor dog, he will be so heartbroken not to be with us," that they had him put to sleep. They killed.
Prabhupāda: In Gandhi's life also, he once killed one calf or some cow. It was suffering very much. So Gandhi ordered that "Instead of suffering, just kill him."
Prabhupāda: Then where is your advancement? You supply everyone palatial building like this. Why they are living in the matchboxes? Why they are eating cats and dogs? One thing, if you don't believe in God, then you give them. But you cannot give. Then who has given them? Nobody wants to live in the matchbox. Why he is living in the matchbox and you are living in a nice house? Is it all a chance? He is not struggling? He is not making his plan that "I shall also live." Just like the Communists. But he could not. We went to Moscow. They have no nice building made by the Communist people. All big, big, old buildings that is made, constructed by Czar. Not a single building I saw which was constructed by the Communist government.
Dai Nippon representative: Three thousand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. For weeks they prepare. And the competition is the more items the temple prepares, he becomes... (break) And distribution, prasāda distribution, free of charges. It was a very nice system that nobody should remain hungry. That is the system. If there is any temple in any neighborhood, in that neighborhood nobody should remain hungry. The Vedic system is that in your house, a householder shall see that even a lizard in the house is not hungry. He must also be given food. Even there is a snake—nobody likes snake—but a Vedic householder has to call the snake and give him food. He also may not remain hungry. This is the... And these things will be explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that anything, wherever it is, on land, on the air, sky, within the water, everywhere, God's kingdom; and all living entities, they are God's sons. So everyone has got the right to take advantage of his father's property. This is Bhāgavata communism. The communists are thinking in terms of their own country. But we, a devotee, we think in terms of all living entities, wherever he is, either in the sky or in the land or in the water.
Śyāmasundara: Because they promise something they don't deliver?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Even if you get it, what do you get? You go to... Supposed you go to church: "God, give us our daily bread." God is giving, then what do you get? Bread is given to the animals also. Why you are going to the church? That is the Communist say, that "We shall give you bread. Why you waste your time with so-called religions?" The politician says that "You want to be happy, there is technology. Why you are going to pray to God? This is all nonsense." They are thinking that. But prayer is not meant for that purpose. Prayer... Just like we are praying, but our prayer is "Kṛṣṇa, kindly engage me in Your service," Hare Kṛṣṇa. "O the energy of Kṛṣṇa, O the Lord Kṛṣṇa, please engage me in Your service." This is our prayer. We are not going to prayer, "O God, give us our daily bread." And if you get bread, then what do you gain?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) was older than you.
Sumati Morarjee: Oh?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, he was a (indistinct)
Sumati Morarjee: I know, and he was a communist member before.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Sumati Morarjee: Home (rule) and all that. He was the man. So I knew him some many years. So he came to see me, and I talked to him, at that time, you know, his position had become very bad. so he said that I started talking to him English, he said why do you talk to me in English? You talk to me in Kachi. We have common language. I thought you forgotten. He said (indistinct) at that time (Śrīla Prabhupāda laughs). And after that, you know, he, this movement of Pakistan, and India became very strong and he went away.
Prabhupāda: He was, he was paid for that running on the League of...
Sumati Morarjee: Ah, I know.
Prabhupāda: Was the Muslim League.
Frenchman: We have heard from not such a great master who has (indistinct) ...highest spiritual principles, (indistinct) ...like socialism and spiritual communism, he'd like to know exactly what this means.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual communism means that these so-called communists they are concerned with the limited thing. Just like the communists in Russia or China, they are thinking of their country main only. They are not thinking of others. Or they're thinking only they human beings, not of the animals. But our spiritual comm... Communist means that we take care, not only of the human being, but of the animals also. We don't think that the human being is only our own community. We think every living is within the community, center being God. Just like spiritual our communism means... Just like I'm living in this house. I shall have to take care even for one lizard, that is also living entity. I shall have to take care of one rat, one mouse, even one snake, if he's living in one's house. That is spiritual community. The idea is nobody should starve. I have to see whether the leader is also given proper food. Just like people generally save foodstuff from the attack of other animals. But spiritual communism... (break) We ought to make them happy. We want to see everyone is happy. That is our mission. Actually all our students who are presently working with us they are feeling happiness... (indistinct) So everyone will be happy if they take to this movement. We want to see that everyone is happy. That is our mission. We don't want to exploit others.
Jayatīrtha: Actually people are seeing that more and more all the big problems are being created at universities, all the university students are rioting and becoming restless, Communists...
Prabhupāda: Because the knowledge has begun from wrong conception of life.
Jayatīrtha: They see that they are being cheated, yet they are cheating others also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like Śrīla Prabhupāda says, there are so many departments of knowledge in all the universities, but the most important department of knowledge, what is the purpose of human life, is left out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...leaders. General public, they do no know, they are ignorant, blind. But the leaders are also blind. So blind leader leading other blind men, that means disaster. That is happening.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Most people, including scientists, they are not satisfied with the arrangement of nature.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness.
Indian man: Great risk.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These rascals at any time can arrest anyone and keep in him the concentration camp. Oh, it is a dangerous government. And they will take you anywhere, nobody will know. Just like even a great person, Kruschev, nobody knows his whereabouts. It is a very dangerous government. But as they are advertising, people are not happy. Moscow city is nice, but it is old constructed. The same Communistic government has not done anything. There are very big, big buildings, nice roads, everything, but they are all old, not new.
Devotee (3): What they are doing with their wealth?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (3): What they are doing with their wealth?
Prabhupāda: Wealth?
Devotee (3): What are they doing with their wealth if they are not investing it in economic...
Prabhupāda: They're simply spending for military, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Honeydew, yes. So I immediately remember your Keśi-ghāṭa karmuj, first class. So sweet, little greenish. But you can get all the year round. Actually America is favored. Therefore, I repeatedly say that you Americans, you are graced by God, you simply take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will become first-class nation. And actually they are taking more than other countries. (break)
Devotee (3): India will become Communist also?
Prabhupāda: It has already begun. India will become Communist. What do you think?
Indian man: It's difficult to predict. I don't think so soon.
Gurudāsa: One life member very dramatically the other day said it is not around the corner...
Prabhupāda: Especially in Bengal they have become Communist.
Gurudāsa: She says we are amidst it.
Prabhupāda: Madras they have become Communist.
Gurudāsa: She says we are amidst Communism.
Pañca-draviḍa: Even the optimistic merchants and people you talk to, I say, "It is Communist government?" They say, "Well, it is Communist-minded government." The government has printed in the paper one headline recently that says by next March..., what is that called, Rana, Rana or Rava, next March calendar.
Prabhupāda: Ravan?
Pañca-draviḍa: Rava or something, a particular notation on the calendar, it corresponds to March or April, r—a something. I don't know the exact period of time, but by March, the government says they will completely..., they want to completely take over the control of wheat by this time. They have already taken over the control of atta and flour and now suji. They want to take over the control of wheat and the control of sugar completely. So all these things we are seeing is what they are doing, they are taking over control, they are rationing the items, but in the ration shop you can get 800 grams of the product and then you have to go out onto the market and buy at outrageous prices, because nobody can feed a family on 800 grams of sugar a month. It's very little for five people. The price of sugar has gone up over a rupee and a half since the government took over.
Prabhupāda: Ration means black market.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Idle brain is a devils' workshop. Because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their brain is a workshop of the devil. That's all. Harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause) And without culture men are becoming rogues and thieves, uncultured. Communist movement. Atheistic... Everywhere, nobody's happy. The government's duty, first duty should be that everyone is happy. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Even there was no natural disturbances. No excessive heat, no excessive cold. No anxiety. People are dying now out of anxieties. They're becoming mad, committing suicide, drinking liquors more and more. Just for anxiety. When they cannot solve any big problem, "Bring bottle." Is it not?
Brahmānanda: Yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21). This is the only solution. (pause) Now śāstra says jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. There are nine hundred thousand forms of aquatics. So what the scientist says? How many there are?
Paramahaṁsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.
Paramahaṁsa: But preach first.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: They don't preach.
Prabhupāda: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Paramahaṁsa: A new method of warfare.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That, happening, that is another thing. We are talking of the principle. God is one. God cannot be two. Then there is no meaning of God. Now, if I present Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, if you disagree, then you'll have to present your god. Now, we have to consider who is actually God. Just like I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. So I asked him that "Where is the difference between your communist philosophy and our philosophy? The communist philosophy, they have created their own god, Lenin." Lenin is their God. We have seen in Moscow.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes, I've been...
Prabhupāda: Every street, every a...
Buddhist Monk (1): Every street. I know, all over.
Prabhupāda: Lenin, Lenin's picture, Lenin's book.
Prabhupāda: So I told him that "You have created your own god, Lenin. And we have got our own God, Kṛṣṇa. Now, the principle of accepting somebody as God is there, in your philosophy and in my philosophy. So that you cannot avoid. Your communistic philosophy cannot avoid the conception of God, the leader." Just like in Buddha philosophy also, there is the conception of God, of Lord Buddha.
Buddhist Monk (1): No. That's not correct. Because we do not treat the Buddha... In fact, when the Buddha preached his atheistic philosophy... That's why he was termed a nāstika, a wasala. We do not believe in a god. We say panya, wisdom, and dharmuddha, is an incompatible...
Prabhupāda: At least, you follow the leadership of Buddha.
Lord Brockway: Oh, I approve of it very, very strongly. Very strongly. It must be... It must be the basis of all, of all good.
Prabhupāda: No, basis... Now, suppose if a people in general, they are not advanced, by their votes, somebody is elected, he may not be also advanced. That is the defect of democracy. Mass of people, they are not advanced. So simply by their vote, if somebody is elected, then they will have to repent. Just like Nixon. He's elected, but these people are again decrying him, that "No, you are not good." So why do you, did you elect him? You elect, and again you reject. That is the defect of democracy. that people are not advanced. They can commit mistake, elect somebody wrong. And then they will lament. This is the defect. But monarchy, as it was approved by the Vedic culture, the monarchy, if the king is first-class, God conscious... A king should be like that. That is the ideal king. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā: rājarṣi. The king should be just like saintly person, although he's king. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). And just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was rājarṣi. All the kings in those days, they were trained up in such a way that they were saintly persons, although they were the king. Not debauch. So one person, if he's authorized... Just like the communists, they are thinking of dictatorship. This is also another kind of dictatorship.
Śyāmasundara: No information.
Prabhupāda: Yes, no information. Just like the commu... Even in communist country. They, they are thinking that national, everything should be national. So what is the meaning of national? Means any living entity born in that country is national. So why the poor animals are not nationals? That is, means lack of God consciousness. He does not know. He thinks simply human being national.
Lord Brockway: Oh, I agree. I'm a vegetarian.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Thank you. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So this is all due to lack of God consciousness. Therefore the only remedy is to make people God conscious, thoroughly, perfectly. Then everything will be all right.
Vicitravīrya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual...
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is. These are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gītā. We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing, that in communist country.
Haṁsadūta: Ah...
Prabhupāda: You just explain to them.
Popworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all communist youth, are they?
Haṁsadūta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness... Actually, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupāda always explained, because communism, so-called communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism because we recognize that the Supreme... Everyone should work for Kṛṣṇa. Everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy... Communist philosophy is "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? But it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Kṛṣṇa, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism.
Prabhupāda: Instead of making the state center, make God center.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. But it is not the majority of the young men and this revolutionary spirit is amongst many youths, some research, research of the Absolute. Some young men are communist and Marxist, surely. But many youths, today have a spirit of research factually. In, insatisfied with actual religious forms, but receives any religious experience, a spiritual experience...
Prabhupāda: That is the latest thing. They are now disgusted with these religious rituals without philosophy.
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, it is so, it is so. They have accepted some formalism, ritualism. They do not like this. But receives a personal and internal experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: As you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is the most refined socialism. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... Our socialism means centering around Kṛṣṇa. Just like Russian socialism is around the ideas of Marx or Lenin. So we have got also similar leader. As the communist has got the leader, Marx or Lenin, similarly we have also got the leader, Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: There is, there is kind of socialist or communist philosophy that says that everyone must be able to do the same work in order to be equal.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.
Professor: No, but that's...
Prabhupāda: Now, I, when we were talking, I asked him one question, that "Professor Kotofsky, you are communist, I am Kṛṣṇite. So where is the difference of philosophy? Because you have to accept one authority, leader. So you have accepted Lenin as leader; we have accepted Kṛṣṇa as leader. So where is the difference on the principle?" So he could not answer. But he very much appreciated this, that "Where is the difference between these two principles." But now we have to consider whether the leadership of Lenin is good, or the leadership of Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But you have to accept one leader. You cannot do without leader. That is not possible.
Professor: Well, well, to some extent it's possible.
Prabhupāda: No, every extent. Anyone, anyone calling... So many philosophy or ism, he has got leader. That you cannot avoid. The Buddhists, they are following Lord Buddha. Christians, they are following Lord Jesus Christ. Mohammedans, they are following Mohammed. Similarly the communists, they are following Lenin, or Max. What is?
Guest (1): It is God's desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is nature's arrangement. And those who are rich... There are richer section when the rice was selling at three rupees per mound, and the richer section is still there when rice is selling, nine rupees a kilo. So they have no eyes because less intelligent. They cannot make equal. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, in the prakṛti there are three modes of material nature. They will be manifested. It is not possible to make everyone of the same standard, the standard must be different. So they are simply spoiling their time to make the whole society on the same status. The communists are trying, the others are trying. That is not possible. So one should not be disturbed with all these superficial low and high places.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I think there is a lot of politics in it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. As soon as you go against the standard rules and regulations, there must be some motive. That is politics. That is politics. All politicians, they are with motive. They are not for... Now, all these big, big political parties, they are fighting with one another. They are simply trying to keep their post and they are fighting for that. So where is the time for them to think of the general people, how they will be happy? There is no time. It is the Kṛṣṇa conscious people who are actually thinking of others. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ bhajāmi. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Vaiṣṇava qualification is he is unhappy by seeing others... (break) Let us enlighten them. Otherwise what is the use of working in this old age? (Aside:) Come on. Vaiṣṇava's qualification is para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He is unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Because without God consciousness, without understanding "What I am, what is God, what is my relationship," everyone shall remain unhappy. There cannot be happiness. Without knowledge of God, nobody can be happy. Superficially they may try, so-called humanitarianism, this ism, that ism. Now, say for these Communists country, they have struggled for the last sixty years. They started from 1917. How many years?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Seventy.
Karandhara: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are so many things. Actually, if the American nation take it seriously, "In God we trust," ...They must take it seriously because it is Constitution. Then the whole world will change. The whole world will change. Not only that. The Americans... Just like they are always combatting with the Communists. Similarly, the American nation should be so strong that anyone godless, he should be fired. Any nation who does not believe in God, war declared. "Either you believe in God or come on. Fight. Come under us." This should be the...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is like the...
Prabhupāda: It is not that God consciousness, just like our Gaurasundara, to go to a solitary place, and do all rascals and rascaldom. Sell the temple and go to the solitary place. This kind of God-trust, rascaldom, hooliganism, is no trust. You see? This is all hooliganism, nonsense.
Prabhupāda: ...two classes of men: the communist and the non-communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that's all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain "so-called trust in God." That will not be possible. So according to our proposition... Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surāsura. Viṣṇu-bhakto bhaved devaḥ. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayaḥ. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they... If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara?
Karandhara: "Opium of the people."
Prabhupāda: Yes. They think, "Those who are religious, they are simply wasting their time." Therefore communist country, they are completely against religion. They cannot allow their people to waste their time. That is their philosophy. This is the condition of the world.
Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that...
Prabhupāda: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to stop spread of communism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Similarly, now America has to do the same thing to stop demonism. Then your nation will be leader. You understand; you have trust in God. Now it is your business to trust in real God and work for Him. You cannot... I have explained already. You cannot stop communism. You have to stop demonism. That is your real business. Communism is another type of demonism. So if you remain a demon, so what is the use of stopping another demonism? The same example: stool, the upside is dried up. You cannot say, "Because it is upside of stool, it is better side." Stool is stool. Guer ei pita en opita. (?) (dog barking loudly) Come on. That's all right. He cannot make the condition of the world better by... Just like Professor Kotofsky. He was saying that there must be revolution. I was talking of authority. So the authority you must have to accept. So he said that authority is accepted upon revolution.
Yaśomatīnandana: One who is learning by seeing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who knows that these material things, it has got a beginning and it has got an end... In every day we see that. Even with our body we see that it has a beginning and it has an end. I have seen my father was born and he died. So I am also born; I'll also die. My son is also born; my son will die. This is real experience. But if somebody says that "I shall not die. We are trying to become immortal," so that is foolishness. That is foolishness. By experience from time immemorial, historical reference, there is no such thing as immortality. But if somebody says, "By chemical evolution we shall become immortal..." Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness proposition is that human life is meant for factual knowledge or ultimate knowledge. But these rascals are checking that progress. That means the prerogative of human life is being denied to the human society. So this kind of hindrances should be stopped, either by soliciting or even by force, because the human society is being ruined. These things have to be stopped. Therefore I was inquiring that "Why American went to Vietnam?" To stop communism, but that sort of stopping will not make any solution. We have to stop demoniac civilization. Then the human society will be happy and in normal condition.
Prajāpati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight.
Jagajjīvana: Yeah, there is a chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, Second chapter is done. It hasn't been distributed yet until February. We are two blocks away from a college. It has 32,000 students, and we go there every day and chant and the Communists come and we start preaching to them.
Prabhupāda: Communists? Students are under Communistic? What the Communists preaches? There is no God?
Jagajjīvana: Yes. And that in this life you can become perfect. There can be a perfect man without Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Ah, so who has become that perfect man? Amongst your Communists? The Stalin is considered the greatest criminal in the world, in the history, Stalin. So how he is perfect man? If he is the greatest criminal?
Jagajjīvana: (break) Mostly Spanish countries. (break) Another town in Puerto Rico we have a center there also.
Prabhupāda: Where it is?
Jagajjīvana: That is on the other side of the island, on Puerto Rico.
Prabhupāda: Rūpānuga Mahārāja went there?
Jagajjīvana: Yes.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Yaśodānandana: ...you mentioned that the vaiśyas, they are considered to be the capitalists and the śūdras, they are considered to be the Communist. And you mentioned that eventually the communists will take over the capitalists. So how long do you think that will happen?
Prabhupāda: What's the use? Why shall I think like that? Let them go to hell, and let us go back to home, back to Godhead. Why shall I waste our time? We can advise them, "Do this. You will be happy." If they do not take, then we don't bother anymore. We are not social welfare worker or political worker. We are worker for Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...in this world that people are suffering for want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Let us try to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is our only interest. Otherwise we have no interest in this material world. Let them do their own duty and suffer or enjoy. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, samo 'haṁ sarva-bhūteṣu (BG 9.29). Samaḥ. Samatā. We are not social worker or political worker. We are Kṛṣṇa worker. So we give advice to them that "You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and all problems will be solved." That is our duty; and to advise him, to convince him, to give him all facilities. Still, if he does not take, then we are not going to see how long he will suffer, how he will stop. Let them do their own business.
Śyāmasundara: Something like that. It's called a "think-tank". She's named it. It's presided over by Lord, Lord Goodman.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is, unless the people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, either this board or that board, that will not help. First of all, people should know what is the aim of life, what is culture, how the human activity should be directed. The people should know first of all this. Otherwise, changing from frying pan to the fire, it is useless. That is going on. That change, revolution, is going on. Just like the Russian people, they changed the Czarist government into communist government, revolution, but still, they're unhappy. They're trying to change by another revolution. This is going on. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). This is described in the śāstra as "chewing the chewed." Or the same simple philosophy: "This side of stool is better than that side." So he keeps the whole thing, stool. "This side, the dry side, is better and the moist side, wet side, is bad." This is no philosophy. It, it must not be stool. It must be gold. Then it is all right, this side or that side. That philosophy, that the dry side of stool is better than the wet side, this will not help. So first, first of all, human society must know what is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum (SB 7.5.31). We are part and parcel of God, Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, "They escape responsibility of worldly life and they're indulging in some religious..." That is the tendency. All... Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, "These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis... That... Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that "They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?" They have taken some plea and rejected our... (break) ...is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against māyā, the māyā is also very strong.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?
Devotees: Hammer and sickle.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good.
Devotees: Sickle.
Prabhupāda: No hammer. That will be our emblem. Only sickle. Not hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole human civilization. So just make a counter-emblem. The communists will appreciate.
Devotee: Sickle and tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: A sickle, and then a tilaka.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is good idea. Guptajī? Come here.
Guest: No, they are three things. Number one is a nuisance. Now, the nuisance is always to be proved. Really, merely by saying, two people or five people that the bhajanas, and the kīrtanas are a nuisance because...
Prabhupāda: No, no. People now, people are drunkards, meat-eaters. They may, even they show, that is not authority. Authority is the śāstras.
Guest: So therefore... You see, the authors of the śāstras... śāstra big authors who are good so-called leaders and same, those who have faith in the śāstras, but the government which is so-called secular or pro-muslim and the pro-communist...
Prabhupāda: No, no, they, they may be secular, but they cannot neglect your one śāstra.
Guest: Therefore they are neglecting it. They should not neglect it. They should not...
Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.
Prabhupāda: They do not know how these things coming, and how to amend it, how to reform. (break) ...countries, they are not happy.
Dr. Patel: They are not happy because the communism is not in the right. Communism is Cārvāka philo... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...others, they're also in the same background.
Dr. Patel: No, certain basic amenities are necessary. That is, has been provided in the Hindu religion. What we have to... (break) We have to remind them to follow your philosophy and that is... (break)
Prabhupāda: So you first of all follow. You first of all follow. Then you teach them.
Dr. Patel: Bābā... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...follow, how can I teach them?
Dr. Patel: Otherwise body would perish. It does rot.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The body develops so long the ātmā is there. So similarly, because Kṛṣṇa is there, therefore whatever manifestation you see, that is due to Kṛṣṇa. Now here the latest theory of the rascals, that life has come from matter, is refuted.
Dr. Patel: That is Carvaka's theory, this Karl Marx, the communists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now He says aham. Aham is living entity. So living entity is the origin of everything.
Dr. Patel:
- ādityānām ahaṁ viṣṇur
- jyotiṣāṁ ravir aṁśumān
- marīcir marutām asmi
- nakṣatrāṇām ahaṁ śaśī
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, this is also another nice thing, that the modern astronomers, they say that all these stars are sun, sun. Do they not?
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (5): How is it that there is so much moral degradation in our country?
Prabhupāda: Because you did not lead them, you did not teach them spiritual books. You allowed them to read Communist books.
Guest (5): Is it the failure of our spiritual leaders?
Prabhupāda: What is a spiritual leader? First of all we have to think..., if the businessman is not spiritual leader.
Guest (6): So you mean the lack of spiritual leadership has driven us to this state of affairs?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because there have been so many. Just like Bhagavad-gītā, it is standard book. The so-called spiritual leaders, they give different interpretation. Why different interpretation? One interpretation is there. Anyone can understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). It is plain thing, Kṛṣṇa says that "You always think of Me." Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. "You become My devotee, you just worship Me, offer your obeisance." And Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa personally." What right he has got to say like that? Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava. Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." This is going on. Just see.
Prabhupāda: You see? They should have given to us for distributing Kṛṣṇa consciousness all..., but these rascals will not do that.
Indian man (3): "In the Vedic scriptures, therefore, one is recommended to give charity to a brāhmaṇa."
Prabhupāda: Because they are not brāhmaṇa. All śūdras, Communist.
Dr. Patel: Janma jāyate śūdraḥ.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Especially, especially that Andhra government is Communist government.
Indian man (3): "And by so doing, one pleases Lord Viṣṇu and all the demigods. The pilgrims take bath, worship the Deity and give in charity. They are also recommended to fast one day." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...that after attaining human form of body he is not degraded.
Dr. Patel: This M.N. Raya, you know, who advocated that humanism, for which he was banished by the Communist fellows because the root of M.N. Raya was in Hinduism, no? After all? It is very difficult for us to think about so-called Communism. But religion itself is Communistic.
Prabhupāda: No, no. We, we don't think in terms of Hinduism. We don't think.
Dr. Patel: No. But we have been actually brought up religiously as communists, religious communists.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual communists. Religious, religious upon strict sense of religion. Religion means spiritualism.
Dr. Patel: Yes, spiritual communism.
Prabhupāda: Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa. That is religion. Other things are cheating. If they have no sense of God, they do not know what is God, how to abide by the orders of God, that is not religion. Therefore Bhāgavata says, dharmaḥ-projjhita kaitavo atra: (SB 1.1.2) "All cheating types of religion system is rejected, kicked out from this Bhāgavata." They're all cheating. "I am God. You are God. I am everything. You are..." This is not religion. It is all humbug religion. Go on. (break) ...has written about Kṛṣṇa by Vyāsadeva, and people say, "There was no Kṛṣṇa. It is all fictitious."
Prabhupāda: If there is no opposite elements, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become jubilant." So where is your enemy? Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then where is your enemy? Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days. So many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any (indistinct), very quickly this Communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight, like cats and dogs. "Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood." So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is "You come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest." Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akutobhayam: "Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest." And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept here.
Prabhupāda: Very recent, very recent future. This Communist and Capitalist mentality will bring the next... The Communists will be victorious.
Dhanañjaya: And after the war what will be the result?
Prabhupāda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem... Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kṛṣṇa the leader, then the Communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God the supreme dictator, then every-thing is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66), then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use... And we don't require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere.
Bhagavān: So they have to be kept employed.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have to be... They should not possess, so that they will work always.
Yogeśvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted.
Prabhupāda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited?
Yogeśvara: Yes, when the śūdras were seeing that, "Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food," then they revolted.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now... Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.
Prabhupāda: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter, and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system.
Yogeśvara: Yeah, that's the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists... Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow. You cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else?
Bhagavān: That's not good?
Prabhupāda: That's not good.
Prabhupāda: So that enjoyment, eating, sleeping, mating, the animals are doing that. What other enjoyment you have got? The same thing, eating, sleeping, that's all. That can be done without this building. Even the animals, they very nicely sleep on the ground. They haven't got skyscraper building, but they have no disturbance in their sleeping. The birds are sleeping on the top of the tree very nicely. So what advancement you have made than the birds and the beasts? The business is the same.
Devotee: The Communists say that first we must feed the people, give the people the same rights, and after, we will give them a life of spiritual life, a life of...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you cannot do that. Why there are so many hungry people all over the world? What you have done? There are thousands and thousands. Even in big, big cities like New York, why there are so many people lying on the street? Why the hippies are lying on the street, on the park? So what is the value of your, this proposal? You cannot stop it.
Haihaya: Here in Italy the majority of people is communism. The majority of young people is communism.
Prabhupāda: What ism you manufacture it doesn't matter. We have to see whether you are understanding the value of life. Our point is that. We don't mind whether you are communist, capitalist, this ist, that ist, that... We want to see whether you are utilizing your human intelligence for right purpose. We don't condemn anyone. If the communists, they are also making the same plan as the capitalist, then what is the use of this communism? The same thing. It may be useful for the temporary purpose, for the rascals, but it is the same quality.
Prabhupāda: That you cannot do. Why don't you see? Why don't you make up others who are already suffering? What you are doing for them? They do not like to take it. Even your proposal, "You come, live in a nice house," they will not take it. Then? What you will do? You are making arrangement for good purposes, for good standard of living, but others, they will not accept your proposal. I have given the example, hippies. Let the Communists come and ask them, "Why you are living in this way? Come on. We shall give you." Why communists? Their government is offering, "Why you are lying on the street? Come on. Live in a nice house." They will not accept it. What you will do, that?
Nitāi: That is just like the example you gave the other day about the man sitting under the tree. Someone comes up to him and says, "Come, work hard. You will enjoy." The hippies, their only business is trying to enjoy. They are just absorbed in sense gratification.
Satsvarūpa: I know the communists are very much agitated by our activities, the young people that Haihaya is talking about. They say that we are working for the old order by our simply chanting.
Dhanañjaya: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have to go back. I don't know why, but this part here is all closed in. (break)
Haihaya: Even one brahmacārī in Argentina. Because they didn't like us very much. They think that we are like the religion that we want to alienate the people.
Satsvarūpa: But we will take people's minds off the fact that they should be fighting for economic rights. We say, "That's not so important. You should become God conscious, Kṛṣṇa conscious." And then the people... Just like Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the people." They think we're just pacifying people, when actually everyone should becoming agitated for equal rights. So when they see us...
Prabhupāda: So where is equal rights? Even in Russia, there is managerial class and laborer class. Where are equal rights? Why there are managers? Yes. I have seen it. The managerial class and the laborer class. So where is equality? Why the managerial class? You know that? There must be required. The old women, they are sweeping the street. Why not Mr. Lenin come and sweep the street? Why he is sitting in a big palace and the poor woman has been engaged to sweep the street? Where is equality? What advancement they have made? We are following opiate. They are following opiate, Lenin's rascal's philosophy. That's all. That is also opiate. But where is equality? That is also opiate.
Prabhupāda: They think, but we see practically: Why there is difference between this manager and the laborer class? Will the dictator, the manager will take the same salary as the sweeper is taking? Why there is difference? Why the manager is given more preference for living condition? Where is equality? First of all show me. Simply talking will not do.
Dhanañjaya: Actually, the only difference is that in the communist countries, religion is not allowed.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. But their philosophy that everyone is equal... Where is equality? There is no equality. Why you are talking nonsense? And in Moscow I have seen. So many people are walking, and others are going on motorcar. Why? why this difference? Why not everyone motorcar? Then what improvement you have made? You are simply talking. Why this difference? Nobody wants to walk. Why thousands of people walking on the street, and some of them are going on motorcar? Why? Where is the equality?
Haihaya: The communists, they kicked us from the university in Mexico, because we were always defeat there in the philosophy. It is very easy to defeat communists with this philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to do. There may be opposition, but what can be done? We have to speak the resu..., that "There cannot be equality sir. You are talking nonsense." Challenge them, and let them prove that "Here is equality." Where is equality? Where is equality? You are human being. You are trying to live very comfortably. Why don't you make comfortable life for other living entities? Why you are sending them to the slaughterhouse? Where is equality?
Haihaya: If we have a world day every month, fasting world day. If we can fast, all the world can fast, all inhabitants of the world...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot expect that the whole world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. You keep your standard. Don't be bewildered by these rascals. That is our proposal. We should not be misled by this rascal philosophy. We shall stick to our own philosophy. That is required. Because we know all their philosophy are defective. That is not perfect. So why shall I be misled by their philosophy? We shall stick to our own principle, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. That's all. Everyone should stick to the right philosophy. That is human sense. Not be biased and carried away by some whimsical way.
Nitāi: They cannot face anybody who knows something.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They make this propaganda. They take bread to the peasants, and the peasants go to the church, and ask, "O God, give us our daily bread." Then they ask, "Has God given you bread?" So they say, "No sir." "You ask us." "Oh, Mr. Communist, give me bread." "Ah, take as much..." "Who is better?" "You are better." They'll say like that. But they have no sense that wherefrom this rascal has brought this bread. If God had, would not have given the wheat, wherefrom he would make the bread? But that, they have no sense. This is going on. If they had sense, they would immediately reply, "You are not giving the bread. God has given this bread." Because he prepared bread from the wheat. And wheat has been given by God. "You cannot prepare food. Therefore God has given."
Haihaya: Actually, they ask to God and they get it.
Prabhupāda: Actually, God is giving us bread, not this "Communist Party." That's a fact. But they have no intelligence to reply these rascals. That's all. Therefore these isms, so-called isms, is good for the rascals, not for the intelligent man. Intelligent man will immediately ask, "Where is your equality?" And they cannot reply.
Haihaya: The communists asked to us what we do for the starving people.
Prabhupāda: Rascal, what you have done? You are simply talking. What you have done? There are so many starving people all over the world. What you have done? "Starving people." I have seen. They cannot give starving people. Just like we went to Russia. So we wanted rice. There is no rice. There was no good rice. We wanted fruit. There was no fruit. So what you have done? I am starving for fruit and rice. You cannot supply me. That is practical. I have seen it. They will offer, "Take this beef instead of fruit." Then I will starve. So what he has done for me? I am starving. I cannot take beef. I want rice, but you cannot supply me. That I have seen. One Madrasi gentleman was bringing rice for me. It could not be purchased in the market. There is no fruit. So if I want fruit and rice and if you give me beef, it is as good as if I want bread, if you give me stone. So where is the capacity to satisfy the starving? I am starving for rice. You cannot give me. Why do you propose like that, that you can satisfy the starving man. You cannot do that. You are talking nonsense. Can you satisfy everyone? Somebody is starving for knowledge. So how you can... This bluff will not satisfy him. So where is the question of starving, satisfying the starving? It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: It is my practical experience. Śyāmasundara had to waste at least two to three hours to secure rice, fruits. Only milk and butter could we get. And then we had to wait in the... They would not allow us to cook unless they had finished. This was the difficulty. Practically I have suffered. All their claims are bogus. The people are not happy there. The young men are not allowed to go outside the country. Just see. All freedom lost. All freedom lost. It is a government of terrorism, that's all. And whatever the Communists do, simply by terrorizing that's all. They have no gentleman's method. Terrorizing. (break) ...misleading other rascals that "You come this way; you will be happy." And the rascals are being misled. They are accepting. This is going on. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). The blind man is asking other blind men, "Come on, I shall cross you the street." But because he is rascal, he does not ask, "Sir, you are also blind. how will you lead us?" They cannot inquire. Or he does not know that "This man is asking me, who is willing to take the leadership, he is also blind." This blind man does not know, do not know. They do not know. This is going on.
Nitāi: So our business is to convince them that they can't be happy in the material world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That they have got experience. Therefore daily they are founding so many parties, manufacturing so many means and plans and this and that, but they are not happy. But they are so fool, great fool, that in spite of being repeatedly baffled, still, punaḥ punaś carv..., the same thing, under different form. What is the difference between these rascal communists and capitalists? After all, they are animals. How they can make things, better arrangement? That is not possible. The only thing... This man will say, "Exploit others," and other man shall, "Give food to the others." What is there? Give food to the others or exploit—the same animal propensity. Where is the advancement? The capitalists are thinking, "Exploit others." The same thing, like animals. This dog, as soon as he saw the shadow of his own body with the food, he thought that "Let me capture that food." This is exploitation. And another will say "No, first of all give food." So they are fighting like this. So everyone's aim is that we shall remain within this material world and happy. Therefore gṛha-vratānām.
C. Hennis: Well, I think that the International Labor Organization is devoted to the reduction of inequalities between the different classes of men with a view to getting them all a better share of the good things of life, and by that, they may begin to reach a greater degree of human happiness, as they understand it, as the people themselves understand it. It may be that they don't understand it well.
Prabhupāda: No. Nature's way is not better share, but equal share. Just like when you take foodstuff, put it in the stomach, and when it is easily digested and transformed into different secretion and comes to the heart and becomes blood, there is equal distribution. Not that because brain is first-class, therefore the blood transformation to the brain should go more. No. Then it will be blood pressure, high blood pressure. This is nature's way, that... But when the energy goes to the brain, it acts differently. When the energy goes to the hands, it acts differently. The electricity energy is the same, but sometimes by working on the dictaphone, sometimes on the microphone, sometimes in electric heater, sometimes in refrigerator... The different apparatuses are there, but the energy is the same, equal. In that sense, the communistic idea that whatever energy is there, whatever resources are there, they should be equally distributed, that is nature's way. From the body we can understand that when the foodstuff turns into secretion, it goes to the heart and becomes blood. The blood is transfused through different veins to different parts of the body, and you will find everybody is satisfied.
Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big..., but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.
Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That's all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) First of all, they were importing European masters, and now they are importing dogs. Now they will have to import European brāhmaṇas. Yes. Because in India all the brāhmaṇas are now finished. So for their ritualistic ceremony they will have to import from Europe, America. Long ago... Long ago, not long ago, about four, five years ago, I wrote this fact. (break) ...the communists, as they making, that the state is the proprietor of everything, so what is the harm of accepting God as the proprietor of everything? What is the harm? He is giving up his own right. The state is the proprietor. So why not make "God is the proprietor"? What is the harm? And actually, God is the proprietor. Now, this lake, it is not made by the state. It is made by God. They are claiming this is Swiss lake. What is that?
Yogeśvara: Geneva lake.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot give up philosophy. Now it is misfortune that you met with the cheaters. So make your fortune now. Believe in Kṛṣṇa's philosophy. Then you'll be happy.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That argument that we don't believe... But you're believing in Lenin's philosophy, the communist. And what is this hippies, their philosophy, Allen Ginsberg's philosophy? Ha? Debauch number one. (laughter)
Satsvarūpa: Ultimately, they don't follow anyone, although they may like people, they...
Prabhupāda: No, they follow.
Devotee: They say our only...
Prabhupāda: But they are manufacture their own philosophy. Philosophy there must be. They've become their own authority. That is a chaotic condition. Authority he has made himself. Yes. I am my authority. Authority has to accept. But he does not know that I am fool No. 1, what is the value of my authority? Authority he must accept. But he makes himself his authority. That is the tendency now. "In my opinion." All rascals say like that. "In my opinion." He does not... He's rascal No. 1, what is the value of his opinion? But he'll say, "In my opinion." That is the difficulty. And this is called creative philosophy. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: Economy? What is that economy?
Yogeśvara: Because there's so much business that depends on the slaughter and the sale of animal flesh. Just like in India now, there is such a low economy that in some of the communist states, they've decided to export meat because it's good...
Prabhupāda: You can export after death. What is the wrong? You can export. Immediately, you take the cows after death, take the skin and take the meat also, skin and flesh, and put it into refrigerator and make export. We simply say that until the death of the cow, don't kill. Let us take the milk. That is our appeal only. What is the wrong there?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Also, the other day, Śrīla Prabhupāda, you were telling us in Geneva that in India it was, at least until the present day forbidden to eat cows, and that those who would eat animals, they would eat dogs or goats, like this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We recommend the meat-eaters who eat dogs, as Korea, they're eating dogs, so you can eat also dog. But don't... You eat it. After death. We don't say don't eat. You are so much fond of eating. All right. You eat. Because after the death, we have to give somebody, some living entity. So generally, it is given to the vultures. So why to the vultures? Take the civilized men, who are as good as vultures. (laughter) The so-called civilized men. Yes. What is the difference between the vultures and these rascals? The vultures also enjoy a dead body. And they also kill, make it dead and enjoy. They're vultures.
Jyotirmayī: ...in France amongst the communist students, the communist Indian students. And I said he is also a literary critic. That means that he is writing a lot of articles in the newspaper and explaining many things in the literary circles in France. He also knows very much about Gandhi philosophy. He has been writing a lot about Gandhi's philosophy. So when he knew that you were with Gandhi, he came very interested.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So we are also communist. As you take the state as the center, we take Kṛṣṇa as the center. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Where is Karandhara?
Devotee: He's coming.
Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa, that "I am the enjoyer. I am the proprietor. I am the friend."
Yogeśvara: In other words, his point, essentially, is that religious sentiment was there on both sides. It was there on the imperialists' side as well as on the side of those who were fighting for India's liberation. So there seems to be a kind of dichotomy. Religious sentiments can be expressed by anyone, whatever their motivation is. Whether it be imperialist, whether it be communist... Religious sentiment is found...
Prabhupāda: What is religious sentiment? (French for some time)
Jyotirmayī: He says again that in India, now also there's a big struggle because they are trying to solve the immediate problems of hunger, you know, all these problems, now, and, of course, there is a religious people on the side of those who are struggling, but there's also religious people on the other side, of those who want to keep the situation as it is now... And then he said that...
Prabhupāda: Religious people wants to keep the situation? Starving? Starving situation? (French for some time)
Prabhupāda: Who?
Pṛthu Putra: The communists and the imperialists. And he sees some names, Rajagopalacharya.
Jyotirmayī: This man, for example, the one that he just cite, he is also a religious man, but he is against the change now. He wants to keep as it is imperialism. You know. So he said that there are so many of these people who are religious and they are, of course, all they have good goals, that is to help people. You find people referring Bhagavad-gītā on the side of those who are struggling now to change the situation and the side, on the side of those who are keeping the situation as it is. So he says there is an ambiguity there.
Prabhupāda: Ambiguity means he is not clear in his knowledge. What is religion and what is liberation—these things he does not know clearly.
Prabhupāda: So? The communist does not? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that in Marxism there is no religious references.
Prabhupāda: But the, what is called, terrorism facility, there is. There is no religious sentiment, but there is terrorism sentiment. Some sentiment is there. (French)
Jyotirmayī: He said that yesterday in Assam seven student have been killed, but is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jyotirmayī: He's saying, is it the communists who killed them?
Prabhupāda: Communists killed others?
Prabhupāda: So we say also same thing. So where is the disagreement? (French)
Jyotirmayī: He says that in his political work, he teaches sometimes Bhagavad-gītā, and people are very interested.
Yogeśvara: He says he is the only Communist to suggest to people that they read the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: No, we recommend everyone to read Bhagavad-gītā. (French) What is that?
Jyotirmayī: He says that when he explains Bhagavad-gītā, or presents Bhagavad-gītā, to people, he doesn't tell them that "This is the word of God and you just have to accept it."
Prabhupāda: That means he has not studied himself Bhagavad-gītā. That means he has not studied Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That everyone says. All rascals says like that. Humanitarian. He does not know what is humanitarian. And then killing one capitalist or communist and this and that. Sophistry. Fascist and communist. This is their humanitarian work.
Devotee: He's like one of these rascals who translates the Bhagavad-gītā in a certain way like saying the five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the battlefield is the body?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: And here we're having a fight with the body, but he doesn't accept that Kṛṣṇa is...
Prabhupāda: Their only business is to escape Kṛṣṇa.
Professor La Combe: Yes, on Chowringhee.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and it was very successful. Daily, thirty thousand people were assembling.
Professor La Combe: This year?
Prabhupāda: No. (break in tape) ...God conscious. So the leaders suppressing. This is the present position. The leaders are more or less communists, and they are suppressing their natural outflow and that is the position now.
Professor La Combe: But I think that nowadays the situation in Calcutta is better. You would not have the same kind of difficulties this year I suppose.
Prabhupāda: No, it is easier now. In 1970, '69 there was no security. When you go out, there is no security whether you'll come back. Yes. You were at that time there? No.
Devotee: No, I arrived there just after. I arrived in Bombay when that was happening. The Naxalites...
Prabhupāda: Any man walking on the street can be killed. It was the situation.
Devotee: And just before I left there they had a big strike where some of the younger communist kids, they got out in the street and they stopped all the buses, traffic and told the drivers to leave their cars. They burned a couple of cars and buses. But it is not as bad as it used to be.
Professor La Combe: Now it is better.
Prabhupāda: Actually, there was no government.
Professor La Combe: At that time, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor La Combe: They lacked authority. In Vṛndāvana there has never been such kind of trouble.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the airport, these international flights, they are not going. They stop only to take petrol, and no passengers going. That has hampered very much India's tourist department. Because no respectable, respectable or nonrespect..., no airlines, just like BOAC and other big, big, they are not going. The minister of tourist department, he has several times requested that "You also come." There are no tourists coming in India.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned souls that they are struggling for existence. Instead of finding out how to come to the original consciousness and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means love. So everyone is struggling hard how to reach the platform of love. So many institutions-philanthropic, international, United Nations. The only attempt, how to love each other. But they'll struggle, they'll not attain the platform, simply struggle. There have been so many attempts, even the favorite example, the United Nations. How much they are doing and people have got the idea of philanthropism, countryism, communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is they are trying to come to the platform of love.
Guest: I see.
Prabhupāda: But they are manufacturing their own way. But Kṛṣṇa showed, "Not in this way, simply make Me center and the whole thing (indistinct)." But that they'll not do. They'll do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me, my idea will clash with you, the same struggle continues. The communists will not agree with the others, the capitalists. The capitalist will not agree. But they are struggling to come to that, the platform of love.
Prabhupāda: And the other, the communist and the other (indistinct). I have seen many big, big officers they are chanting returning from the office and they are chanting and dancing. (indistinct) 20,000, 30,000. (indistinct) Now the government did not give us again that place in Delhi.
Guest: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Last time when we came, there they gave.
Devotee: LIC Grounds(?)?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: LIC Grounds(?)?
Prabhupāda: No, no. They gave us that (indistinct) Park.
Prabhupāda: Surrender is not material.
Satsvarūpa: Serenity...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: To what do you attribute this serenity that your devotees have, their calmness.
Prabhupāda: Communist?
Satsvarūpa: The devotees seem to be calm, serene. Where does that come from?
Prabhupāda: From Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes.
Reverend Powell: From what?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness, when one...
Reverend Powell: Ah, the consciousness, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā. These are the proofs. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he becomes qualified with all godly attributes. That I have explained, that if you be in touch with God, then you become godly. That is the test. Simply by saying that "I am in commune with God." No. There is test. The test means if he is always in touch with God, he'll become, in his characteristics, godly. So they... One of the qualifications is serenity. Is one of the qualifications. There are twenty-five qualifications of a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. When, when one is qualified with all these attributes and he acts accordingly, then he is first-class man.
Reverend Powell: Yes. I gather when you had this interview with the professor in Moscow that there was a little bit of adjustment needed. What is your view of communism, Your Grace?
Prabhupāda: Communism, the idea is nice. But they are imperfect. Imperfect. Their philosophy is that everything belongs to the state.
Reverend Powell: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But that is imperfect idea. Our philosophy is everything belongs to God. So unless they come to this conclusion, they'll remain imperfect. The equal distribution of wealth, everything belongs to God—that is very good idea. But if it is limited within certain area... Just like the communistic state. Besides that, this is imperfect in the sense, they have no idea who are nationals. Not only they, even the capitalists. National means those who are born in that particular land. So there are animals also. They are also national. But because they are imperfect, either the communists or capitalists, they do not accept the animals as nationals. They are sent to the slaughterhouse. These things are happening because they are imperfect. They have no God conscious views. They have crippled views. They are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is not limited within Christian or communist or capitalist.
Reverend Powell: No.
Prabhupāda: No. The principle... Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa. So the Indians, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion, because he's accepting brāhmaṇa from outside." So actually they're also not aware... Creation of God... Here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia. It is for everyone.
Devotee: So therefore it must be impossible to have a classless society such as the Communists are trying for.
Prabhupāda: No, classless society is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "Eat Kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Everyone will like. That is classless: "Everyone chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, everyone eat Kṛṣṇa-prasādam." Life is successful. Classless society on the spiritual platform, not on the material platform. That is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). At that stage, samatā, equality, when one is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), spiritualized... Otherwise not possible. So Dipaka is not here? No, he has gone.
Madhudviṣa: He's at the temple. He will be coming tonight, though. He usually comes to prepare you something before you take rest. I can send for him.
Prabhupāda: All right, no, no. No, no, let him come. I am not in a hurry. What is the time now?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere possible.
Madhudviṣa: And in other Russian... But these countries are all under Communist rule. It is very difficult in those countries.
Prabhupāda: Not difficult. Nothing is difficult. For the time being it is difficult but in due course of time it will be very easy. Now who knew that in Europe and America or all over the world, Hare Kṛṣṇa will go on? Bon Mahārāja left the field; others left the field. You see? Other swamis came. They talked all nonsense, yoga, this and that, nose pressing, eyes pressing—all finished. Now Hare Kṛṣṇa is going on. Now people, the nose-presser and eyes-presser, they are no more important. Is it not? Eh? Now our men go and challenge these rascals. And in New York they did it, huh?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact. But this higher class and lower class will continue to exist. Even it is existing in communistic countries. That cannot..., you cannot stop in this material world. The tendency is that everyone is thinking that he shall be the best enjoyer, best enjoyer. So this is called struggle for existence. Naturally, this higher class and lower class will remain. You cannot stop it. Even in communistic country, this Khrushchev was driven away. He was taking all advantages for his family, for himself. As soon as he got the post, he misused it. He gave his son-in-law very big post, his family members. That was detected, and he was charged that "You are using your influence, nepotism." Therefore, he was driven away. So this natural tendency, as soon as one gets power, he will try to utilize it. This psychology you cannot stop in the material world. That is not possible. That sacrificing spirit, that "My life is dedicated to Kṛṣṇa," then it is possible. Otherwise, as soon as one will get some position and power, he will try to utilize it for his personal benefit. How you can stop it? It is like if you try to make the lion nonviolent. Is it possible? Why lion? Even an ant is violent. Even an ant it is violent.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: I think no religious publisher have seen such big go-down in their life, throughout the whole world. As soon as they will hear about religious book they immediately avoid it, especially the Communist country. And bring some Communist country man to show him that "You are trying to avoid God. Now see how we are preaching God."
Jayatīrtha: In one country, Communist country, Albania, they made it against the law to pray in public or in private. Anyone who is found praying in public or in private may be arrested.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Jayatīrtha: Albania. It is the first country...
Prabhupāda: Armenian country?
Jayatīrtha: Albania.
Prabhupāda: Albania, oh.
Prabhupāda: Because I am giving the perfect truth. Anyone who will accept, it will act. Just like a child says that "This is dictaphone. If you use it like this, you'll get this result." That is perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that not all knowledge is so objective. For example, in the matter of understanding society, the communists have their theory, the capitalists have their theory, and there's millions of theories and so...
Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the knower of the Absolute Truth.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are different medical men and difficult diagnoses, but the urgent case is: cure the driver, and then car will go on nicely. Unfortunately, modern civilization, they do not know what is the driver. And how he will keep him sane? He does not know what is the driver? He thinks the car is automatically going on. Just like child. A child sees the car is going automatically, but that's not a fact. There is a driver. So if our vision is childish, how we can solve the problems of life? I talked with big, big professor, Kotovsky, in Moscow. He said, "There is no driver." This is a big professor, and he is teaching others. So if the leading men of the world, they think there is no driver, the body is automatically going, then what is the fate of the civilization? (break) No, there are, similarly, capitalists, communists, "this-ists," "that-ists." Full of these rascals. So how the human civilization can be without problems? The leaders are rascals. How we can expect that it will go on without problem?
Guest (1): ...at the present time in this country to 10% of the people. They don't have jobs. They are let out. They can't...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, every country, every country. Now, just like you are highly educated. Your country could not give you service. You are coming here. And that is śūdra. One who cannot live independently, he is śūdra. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age, everyone is practically śūdra, because nobody can live independently. So we are producing mass śūdras. Therefore it is in chaotic condition. The Communist is the last word of the śūdras. The Communist philosophy is that "We are worker. We have all the power. We must have all the power." And that they are doing. And because they do not want to obey any authority, therefore they are denying existence of God. This is the tendency of the modern society. Not only they do not know what is God, and they are trying to disobey the orders of God. So practically there is no religion. And without religion human society is animal society. Dharmeṇa hīnā pasubhiḥ samānāḥ. "Human being without any ideas of religion, God, he is no better than animal." That is the difference between animal and human being.
Prabhupāda: Yes. To minimize this material work means the energy should be employed for Kṛṣṇa. Minimize work this, means this side, material side. And save time and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is the principle. And if you are busy from the early morning to go to the working place and up to ten o'clock, then where you get for chanting, time? So therefore you save time from material activities and engage it for advancing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is life.
Rāmeśvara: But the Communists, they also argue that this Christian religion is hypocrisy. It has not brought peace on earth. So they also want to abolish it.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Rāmeśvara: They also want to abolish religion, this Christian religion, and just have a...
Prabhupāda: That is bad experience. They have got bad experience from this so-called Christian religion, and they have no information that there is need of religion. Therefore they want to abolish. Everyone has got bad experience, and they are a little forward, that "Finish it." That's it.
Brahmānanda: It is difficult to come to that understanding, that actually, those who are the leaders are not to be trusted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United Nation—the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Kṛṣṇa solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love.
Ambassador: Like we did together in Delhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You have seen it. They were very much eager. They were very much eager: "Swamiji continue." And the others, like Communist and others, they became upset. I have seen many big, big officers. They were chanting, returning from the office in the office dress, and they were chanting and dancing. And you have seen the crowd, twenty thousand, thirty thousand people. The same thing happened in Calcutta. Now the government did not give us again that land. Yes. Last time when we held that conference in Delhi...
Paramahaṁsa: On the LIC Grounds?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. They gave us that Tal Kotara Park, you know? That is in the jungle. Nobody could reach there, and they gave us place there. (Ambassador laughs) Still, there were not less ten thousand people. It was not easily approachable. The motorcar cannot go. You have to leave your car three miles away to come there.
Prabhupāda: ...they assemble together and people are unhappy. They have renounced democracy, eh? Communist?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Well, they have some sort of democracy themselves.
Prabhupāda: No, they are dictatorship. Actually Stalin's dictatorship was going on.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes. It's all dictatorship. Democracy is also a dictatorship, but by election. They elect a fool, and then he can be..., do whatever he wants.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Yes.
Atreya Ṛṣi: He will try to be as powerful as he can. (end)
Prabhupāda: Fools, they assemble together and people are unhappy. Democracy. Eh? Communists.
Devotee: But they have some sort of democracy themselves.
Prabhupāda: They are dictators. Stalin's dictatorship was going on.
Devotee: It's all dictatorship.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: Democracy is also dictatorship. Just by elections. They elect a fool...
Prabhupāda: (laughs)
Devotee: ...and then he can do whatever he wants.
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: The sacrifice means the animal slaughter has to be done in the mosque, is it not?
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize—what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?
Guest: The whole nation is worker?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?
Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Nalinī-kānta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Next war...?
Prabhupāda: Your country, America, is very much eager to kill these Communists. And the Communists are also very eager. So very soon there will be war. And perhaps India will be the greatest sufferer.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Greatest...?
Devotees: Sufferer.
Srutakirti: Sufferer.
Prabhupāda: Because America is aiming to start the war from India.
Devotee: Oh!
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because India and Russia, they are...
Brahmānanda: They are... Friendship.
Prabhupāda: No. Side by side. If the war is started from India...
Prabhupāda: Therefore, now the war is between people to people, nation to nation. They support with men and money. So therefore they are also killed by nature's law. (break)
Rāmeṣvara: Prabhupāda, in the Ādi-līlā, you wrote that the Communist movement is greater than the capitalist movement because there are more śūdras than vaiśyas so that in a war between Communism and capitalism, the Communists would win.
Prabhupāda: Naturally. They are in greater number.
Rāmeṣvara: But these modern wars are fought with missiles and bombs more than armies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Formerly, also, there were brahmāstra, fire, firearms, brahmāstra. (break) ...problems that we are facing, they were also in the past under different name, different form.
Nalinī-kānta: (break) ...Communists win, that will not stop our preaching?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Nalinī-kānta: They do not like to hear of God.
Rāmeṣvara: You wrote that if the Communists are victorious they would destroy whatever is left of the culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Victory for the Communists means the whole human culture is lost.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have already begun. They are not passing our temple in Bombay.
Nalinī-kānta: If after the war the preaching will be still good, that means the Communists will not be victorious.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Nalinī-kānta: The Americans will win?
Prabhupāda: Honest people will take to religious way of life. The Communists becoming victorious means they are also ruined. Who is that saintly person, sitting under the tree?
Devotees: Tuṣṭa-kṛṣṇa Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) ...too much danger, you all come and sit down here. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Devotees: Jaya. Thank you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Americans want this place to fight with the Russians. So if American comes directly in India, that "We want to fight," then India would not agree. Therefore they're keeping with these foolish rascals, Pakistan. And they're insulting. They're... Not insulting. They're naturally enemy of... not to let them... The Vietnam and everything, Korea, all these things. Not to allow the communists to become very powerful. That is American political policy is going on. And the presidents may change, but the national policy cannot be changed. Therefore they want fighting between Pakistan and India. So Russia... Actually that happened. Russia will come to the help of India. That arrangement is already there with Indira Gandhi. Naturally they'll come to help Pakistan. And then between the big two.
Prabhupāda: But they are uncompromising. The communists, they, they are staunch enemy of the capitalist. Their whole philosophy is against God and against capitalism. So if America becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious and fights, they have got strength plus God's blessing. They'll come out victorious. Fight is going on. We cannot stop. But if the American people take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and fight with the communist, they'll come out victorious. Then the menace of communistic movement will stop. And we want that. We want that these demonic communists should be finished. The Russians, as people, they are not communists. They are not communists. A certain class. Just like in India, a certain class is communist. The mass of people is not communist. They cannot become communist. It is not possible.
Devotee (1): It is not natural for the living being to be communist.
Bhagavān: Atheistic communist.
Prabhupāda: Atheistic communist.
Devotee (1): It's not natural.
Prabhupāda: They, they're not real communists. Real communist we are. Actually see. All people from all parts of the world, professing different religions, different path of life. Still they are joined. This is natural. Kṛṣṇa community.
Prabhupāda: To make their Communist philosophy perfection. That your Communism is not perfect. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can make it perfect. Take for example that you are sympathetic to all living beings that they must eat. But why you are eating animals? They must eat also. Why don't you allow them to eat? That is you defect. We allow everyone to eat. Not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts, they should live comfortably and without any disturbance, they must get their food. That is our Communism. But where is your Communism? You are thinking of your countrymen only, or in your country also only for the human being, and you are sending other poor animals, because they cannot protest, to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest to the capitalists when they send you to the slaughterhouse? You are sending these poor animals to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest? You protest that the capitalist are slaughtering you. So, if you slaughter others, why should you be afraid of being slaughtered yourself? Is it all right?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is imperfect. We are alo Communists, but we are perfect Communists. We are thinking of all living beings.
Paramahaṁsa: So because people are so much in darkness about religion, therefore they say...
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone is in darkness. If you can make propaganda, the people will be misled. That is not very difficult. Just like from Russia, nobody is communist. But it is going on—the Russia is communist country. I have studied thoroughly. Nobody is communist. Maybe a few only. But it is going on by propaganda that Russia is a communist country. The people in general, they are forced to accept it. That book was written by some man, terrorism. It is terrorism. That's it. By force. Nobody accepts this communist philosophy, I have studied. (everyone gets out of car) They were very, very unhappy. The young man cannot go out of the country. Just see. Restricted. How much uncomfortable he is feeling. Especially in European countries, the young men, they want to go. But they will not allow. They will not allow anything to read except Lenin's literature. What is this? Simply suppressing. Everyone is unhappy. Which way? This way? This is their position. I have seen it directly. And as soon as one is suspected that he is doing otherwise, he will be sent to some unknown camp. Nobody knows where he has gone.
Prabhupāda: Yes, all the Leninists and Stalinists, they kill. It is a country of terrorism. That's all. The government men, they are simply terrorists. That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Just like in Cambodia they just, the new Communist government, they executed tens and thousands of people just recently.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Paramahaṁsa: People who were working for the old government. They just killed them all. So this what the people are afraid of.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Terrorism. This Communism means terrorism. (aside:) Thank you.
Amogha: I have a garland, but it's not finished. Almost...
Prabhupāda: Communism means terrorism. That I have seen. I have studied personally. By threat, by pressure, that's all. Nobody is communist in Russia.
Jayadharma: Is the whole world going to become Communist, Prabhupāda? Or is the whole world going to become Kṛṣṇa cons...
Prabhupāda: Nobody is Communist, but if the demons are powerful, they will declare.
Paramahaṁsa: They will introduce it.
Prabhupāda: They will not introduce; they will declare like that, falsely. That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Even in some countries where Communism has a very light influence, like in Thailand there's a little bit of Communist influence, when they had a student revolt, the government came in with tanks and machine guns and immediately killed about three thousand students.
Prabhupāda: In Thailand?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. In Bangkok. That was about two years ago.
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see.
Śrutakīrti: Milk?
Prabhupāda: No. You can... Cashew and ginger. And you make, what is called, channa. In the lunch make cheese. Cheese, cheese. Fry it, and make preparation.
Śrutakīrti: Tomato and cheese?
Prabhupāda: Tomato, cheese, potato. Yes. And fried peanuts? And salad, fruit. By force... Communism is going on, by force. It is the result of sinful life.
Paramahaṁsa: They're put into that circumstance.
Prabhupāda: Yes, people are sinful, they will not do nicely, and now, by nature... Just like this child killing. They did it in his previous life. Now he is suffering. He will be killed. The nature's reaction. We are taking sympathy with the child who is being killed, but we do not know that he did the same business. Now he is being killed. That is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: You do your duty, that's all. (pause) What is this? Stone or something?
Amogha: Part of the street I think. I think it's sandstone from the beach. (pause) Many politicians are afraid that Australia may be attacked by the Communists. Everyone is very much afraid of what could happen in the future, because the United States is becoming weaker.
Prabhupāda: Now they are indulging homosex, how they will become strong? And the students, they are discussing, that means they are having. The stamina is being lost. Now what they have created, it will be lost.
Amogha: They all seem to think that spiritual life is something to think about, something...
Prabhupāda: Not very important.
Prabhupāda: That caste system is already there. We are also..., we have got poor class, rich class. The Communists, they have also worker class, manager class, although the Communists against class system. But I have seen, they have made this classification: worker class, manager class. Why do you make this? That is efficiency. Leader class, follower class. Otherwise there will be chaos. This is natural.
Amogha: The divisions of work are naturally there. You can't avoid them.
Prabhupāda: Even in your body there is class. The head class, the arm class, the belly class, the leg class. They are working differently for benefit of the whole body. That is natural. If you avoid and if you simply keep the leg, then it will be chaotic condition. Or even if you keep the head only, that will not stand. There must be four. That is natural. That is the Vedic mantra it is said—you are reading the other day—the brāhmaṇas, they came out of the mouth. The kṣatriyas, they came out of the arms. The vaiśyas, they came out of the belt. And the śūdras, they came out of the legs. This is mantra. How you can avoid it? Kṛṣṇa says, "It is My creation. How you can avoid it?" You cannot avoid anything which is created by Kṛṣṇa. Just like sunshine. It is created by Kṛṣṇa. You cannot say, "No, no. I don't want sunshine." That is foolishness. If you want to avoid, then you'll suffer. The sunshine is there, and if you go into the dark place, and cover yourself, then the sunshine is outside, that's all. The sun may not suffer—you'll suffer. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says that "This caste system is created by Me." If you don't accept it, then you'll suffer. Kṛṣṇa will not suffer. (leaves car) ...introducing the caste system, we are introducing a system which, you follow, you'll be happy. Not caste system. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Amogha: When we came over here, we stayed in a hotel before we found the house about ten days ago. And when we came to the motel, the lady said, "Oh, someone has left this book here." And she gave us a Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. (pause) Yesterday the United States attacked and sank three Cambodian boats. They are fighting because the Cambodian Communists, the new government, captured one United States freighter. So now they are beginning to try to take it back. (pause) The bus is empty again.
Prabhupāda: A very good bus.
Paramahaṁsa: Practically every one of these cars only has one person in it.
Devotee (1): So actually, they have not advanced technologically from the civilizations of Rāvaṇa's time?
Prabhupāda: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brāhmaṇas, that is advancement. This is not advancement because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that "I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death." They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose... We have got visa for two weeks?
Paramahaṁsa: Three weeks.
Prabhupāda: In the civilized human society there is some system of religion. So that system of religion means try to understand God. Religion means the law given by God. So civilized human beings, they are trying to understand God and His laws. That is called religion. Now the difference between dog and me is that I can try to understand what is God, what is my position; the dog cannot understand. Dog means the animals. They cannot understand. So that is the difference between a human being and a dog. If we give up religion or the method to understand God and our relationship with Him, then we will remain dog. Then we remain dog. We are not human being. So at the present moment the so-called human society, civilized human society, is giving up the conception of God, understanding God, especially the Communist party. They are openly declaring that "We don't believe in God." But those who are not Communists, they, lip sympathy, they say that "Yes, we believe in God," but actually they do not believe.
Prabhupāda: No, they are right officially: "We trust in God." (break) ...the whole, I think, Americans are fortunate because this saṅkīrtana movement is there. Yes. If they take it more seriously, they will be actually favored nation of the Lord.
Hari-śauri: At the present moment it seems that the Communist movement seems to be taking over more and more countries.
Prabhupāda: They will take because people are becoming godless. That is the defect. People are becoming hippies, godless. This material world is full of miseries because most people are godless. Here... Material world means avoiding God. That is the sum and substance of material world. They are trying to avoid, becoming independent of God. That is their endeavor. The scientist, the philosopher, the politician—everyone is trying that. Therefore they are suffering. Māyā is there. Just like a criminal, if he says "I don't care for government," the police will take care of. That is certain.
Devotee: He's a Communist.
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Guest 1: Yes, but people are changing now. You're getting the young people who for the first time in years are becoming aware and are getting interested in things outside their own town, their own individual state or whatever it is they have. You have people, the young people now are getting interested in things like poverty, they're interested in Bangladesh and so on. This is good. But you nonetheless have a very large proportion of the people who have got that idea of, "I'm all right, and I'll look after mine without taking the overall picture into account." And I think that so long as you have different concepts, different beliefs, it's going to be very hard to get into what you're talking about.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be united first, that... First thing is that everyone should be convinced or understand clearly that everything belongs to God. But they have no conception of God even. That is the difficulty. The whole human society at the present moment, majority, they are Godless, especially the Communists. They don't acknowledge. The scientist, the philosopher, the scholars—all Godless. Scientists' special business is how to defy God. They say, "Science is everything. We can do everything by science." There is no need of God. Huh?
Guest 2: I don't think so any more. They're a lot more enlightened.
Prabhupāda: Not any more?
Guest 2: Well, in some circles, yes I think.
Hari-śauri: Actually they are not very much concerned about their parents anymore either. They put them in institutions also when they get too old.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, time will come; they will kill their father. Now they are killing their children. Now they will kill their father. As soon as the whole world will become Communist they will kill the old man, as the Africans, they do it. Africans kill their grandfather, and it is a festival. Yes. They throw the grandfather on the roof of the cottage, and it, rolling down, it falls down. Twice, thrice it dies. That becomes a great festival of the grandsons. They are eating grandfather. Glorious grandsons.
Prabhupāda: We shall return now?
Śrutakīrti: Yes.
Gurukṛpa: Then they request everyone to pray to God for help. Outside of that, they will not have any interest.
Prabhupāda: But the Communists will not do. Even they are in danger, at least outwardly they will not do. This is passenger ship, eh?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, it appears ...
Gurukṛpa: About fifty years ago they made a ship called the Titanic.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpa: And they were very proud, but it smashed into an iceberg.
Prabhupāda: We were children at that time. Not children, we were young men. The first voyage, it was finished. And all big men were there. It was assured that "It will never drown."
Prabhupāda: Then after effects, what will happen, that is another thing. But the war will not continue for ten years or five years, like that.
Bali-mardana: Many Communist countries now, they are not making any more big cities. They are keeping the population very spread out so that after the war they will be able to take over. Because if one has a big city, then the people can be killed very easily in one bomb, finished. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...they are afraid of death?
Bali-mardana: Well, the Chinese figure they have so many people that even if there is a war...
Prabhupāda: They are gainer.
Prabhupāda: ...call it Jooeypur.(?) Joo-ee(?) Joo-ee.(?) (break) ...America can drop the first bomb in Moscow, then they will come out triumphant. And the Communists will be finished. (break) ...friendship with Pakistan only for this reason. It is just on the border of Russia. If from Pakistan they can drop the first bomb in Moscow. (break)
Siddha-svarūpa: ...in the United States and Russia are to get on special airplanes that are equipped... It's like a city in the air, where they will be able to wage war from the air so that even if the all the cities are destroyed, they will still be able to make strategy and keep sending missiles with warheads because they have so many missiles with warheads all over the country that even if all the cities are wiped out they can keep sending more. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...they will get their food?
Siddha-svarūpa: They have it so that they have something like a year's supply. (break)
Prabhupāda: They are struggling for living. Still, they will not be allowed to live. (break) ...Communists.
Prabhupāda: That's what the Communists say. They do not believe in God. So?
Harikeśa: Believing in God makes it all worthwhile. It makes you feel better while you're working hard.
Prabhupāda: Those who are atheists, they are also working hard. They are feeling nice by drinking. Why shall I believe in God? Let me drink.
Harikeśa: Because they're being satisfied by sense gratification, but in...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Why shall I believe in God? Sense gratification is there. Why shall I believe in God?
Upendra: There has to be a certain amount of self-respect that the Christians give the people...
Prabhupāda: Nobody respects. Nowadays, if somebody is religious, he is thought of as a fool. He's not...
Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, that is their argument actually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And that is the fact. And Chinese Communism will be perfect if they take little instruction from us. We are also Communist, Kṛṣṇa Communist. We want that everyone should be happy. The Communistic philosophy is also like that. They want to see everyone happy. But they have made a materialistic center. That will not help. People are attracted to these bad habits of materialistic civilization. The most important is that sex and intoxication and meat-eating and gambling. So their attraction has to be changed. Otherwise, although these Chinese, they are pushing in the village, that village also will be a brothel. They must have some attraction. So where is that attraction? Just like the hippies. They do not like this civilization, but the attraction for the sex and intoxication they could not give up. So they remain the nasty again in a different way. The process should be mayy āsakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That attraction. Mayy āsakta. "The attraction which you..., should be changed to Me." This yoga should be practiced. Then it will be all right. The same example: if you keep the dogs as dog, there is no possibility of making a peaceful dog society. That is not possible. You have to change their doggish quality. Then there will be peace. How you can expect peaceful society amongst the dogs?
Prabhupāda: Animal condition. Not only horrible, it is animal condition. They do not want to know God. Just like these animals, they are not interested. So they have no church, the animals, or temple. But in the human society, either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, there is some arrangement for understanding God. Now they are also neglecting that, everyone, all over the world. Now they are clearly... The Communists, they hate to say anything about God. So ultimately they are coming to such position, the Communists, that "No word about God." So this is the position. Now apart from them, just like theologists and theosophists. They are, at least, after understanding what is God, but they cannot ascertain definitely. So why do they not take? We are offering, "Here is God." Where is the objection? Why they should object? If you do not know something and if I give you the information, why you should not take?
Prabhupāda: He will go to the brothel. That he has got time. To the liquor house to forget his labor. This is civilization. Mūḍha, mūḍha civilization. Why the Communist are coming? Why Communist party is there? What is the philosophy, Communist?
Satsvarūpa: That wealth should be shared by everyone.
Prabhupāda: That means they also do not wish to work so hard. They are seeing that "Capitalists are sitting very comfortably and (we) working." They are also thinking, "Escaping." Is it not? So the natural tendency is that "I will not work, and still, I will get my necessities." That is natural tendency. The material world means avidyā-karma-samjñānya tṛtīyā śaktir iśyate. This is out of ignorance they are working so hard. In the spiritual world there is no question of working. You get everything. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu. Everything, whatever you want. So why not endeavor to go there? Why should you work like hogs and dogs?
Lt. Mozee: Any infraction against one person by another person. Any trampling on the rights of one person by another person can be a crime or should be a crime.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our definition is the same in the Upaniṣad, that everything belongs to God. As you think everything belongs to the state, we think everything belongs to God. So you can utilize your possession, what is allotted to you. Don't encroach upon others. So people are not thinking in that way. First beginning is that you Americans, you are thinking this America land is your, although two hundred years ago it was not your. You have come from other parts of the world. Now you are claiming it is your land. But actually it is God's land. So God's land belongs to everyone. Everyone is God's children. That is our broad conception. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam: (ISO 1) "Everything belongs to God." So people have no conception of God. Everyone is practically godless. Therefore they should be educated about God. Just like the Communists. They are educating godlessness. Similarly... Just like in America they say, your government says, "We trust in God." Is it not?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Well, laws come... Wherefrom the laws come? It comes from Kṛṣṇa. Janmādyasya yataḥ. Everything, whatever you see, it has come from God. Otherwise where you get the idea? That is the definition in the Vedānta. Whatever you have experienced, that is coming from God, original idea from God. Janmādyasya yataḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā the same thing is said, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). Whatever you see, you perceive, you experience, the original is from Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So we shall go? (break) ...them directly that "You are animal." And let him go to the court and we shall prove that he is animal. (break) ...them he is in bodily concept of life, charge him that "You are animal. If you think it is defamation, let us go to the court." (break) ...these isms, nationalism, Communism, socialism, this ism, these are all animalism, nothing but animalism. (break) ...big fish within the water, they are also eating the small fish, and these persons are engaged, the same business.
Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi also. She got the largest number of vote...
Brahmānanda: Even more than her father she received.
Prabhupāda: So what is the value of these votes? If, by vote, if you select a wrong man and again you try to drag him down, then what is the use of this popular vote? Even in Communist country, the, what is called, Krushchev? He was the head. Now nobody knows where he is.
Brahmānanda: Stalin also. He was...
Prabhupāda: Stalin died.
Brahmānanda: But after he died, they completely discredited him. They pulled down his statues and he was completely disgraced.
Devotee: A nonperson, they call him. It's the word they give, like Krushchev also is a nonperson.
Prabhupāda: Non.
Prabhupāda: Religion means primarily to know God and love Him. That is religion. And nobody knows God, and what to speak of loving Him? Nobody is trained up how to know God and how to love Him. They are satisfied by going to the church: "O God, give us our daily bread." That also not everyone goes. So the Communist says that "You don't go to the church. Bread we shall supply." So poor innocent persons, they get bread elsewhere, so they do not go to church. But nobody is serious to understand what is God and how to love Him. Nobody is serious. Therefore in Bhāgavatam, it is said, it is cheating religion. I profess some religion, but I do not know what is God and how to love Him. That's all. So that type of religion is cheating religion. Religion means to know God and love Him. But generally, a man does not know what is God and what to speak of loving Him? So therefore that is cheating religion. That is not religion. But so far Christian religion is concerned, there is ample chance of understanding God. But they do not care for it. Take for example, the commandment is "Thou shall not kill." But in the Christian world, best slaughterhouses are maintained. So how they can become God conscious? They disobey the commandments, do not care for Lord Jesus Christ's order. So this is not only in Christian religion. Every religion, it is going on. It is simply rubber stamp. "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." And none of them do know what is God and how to love Him.
Prabhupāda: Everyone. Mother's affection is natural. Now the civilized mother is killing child. This is your civilization. This is your religion, this is your science, philosophy—everything. And for this, you have created so many big, big buildings to create some less than animals. Civilization is finished unless you take to Kṛṣṇa conscious. Now dictatorship is coming, politics. The dictator can arrest anyone without any trial and stop him. Even their own circle, the Communists... Nobody knows where is Kruschev. Indira Gandhi is doing.
Brahmānanda: Even they arrest you for sleeping now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have got enough place to sleep, and they will come, "You cannot sleep." What is this civilization?
Dharmādhyakṣa: Indira Gandhi, she is taking instruction from the Russians. They are encouraging her to do all of this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is finished. (break) ...principle, strīṣu duṣṭāsu varṇa-saṅkaraḥ abhibavāt.
Prabhupāda: That is yajña. To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. Yajñarthe karma: "For yajña, performing yajña, one has to work." To work for Kṛṣṇa means yajña. That is performance of yajña. (break) ...Communistic idea is borrowing this idea from... But because they are imperfect, they have made center, state. And because it is imperfect, it is not successful. They have made center the state. (break) Tamo-guṇa means laziness and sleep. The śūdras, they are in laziness and sleep. So if they have got something to eat, they will not work. Laziness. Or eat more and sleep. This is tamo-guṇa. And rajo-guṇa means they are working for sense gratification. That is also useless. Tamo-guṇa is laziness and sleeping, and rajo-guṇa means working foolishly or for sense gratification. And sattva-guṇa means they know how to work. And therefore above this sattva-guṇa they become devotee, work for Kṛṣṇa. So without working for Kṛṣṇa, everyone is under the spell of these modes of material nature. And there is no training how to work for Kṛṣṇa. That is the defect of modern civilization.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) This is going on. They do not understand that this world is meant for suffering. We have discussed little in that topic with Śyāmasundara. Just like they invented the communistic idea. Does it mean the communists are not suffering? They are suffering more. They have no liberty. They have lost their liberty, the whole people. They are so much pressed by the government that there is no liberty at all. The younger generation, they cannot go out, so much suffering. I may live even in a big house, but if you say, "You cannot go out. Then you'll be punished," that idea will be suffering—"Oh, I cannot go out."
Brahmānanda: We have one devotee. He escaped from Communist Hungary, and he was telling me all the story, how on the borders how much they keep the people from trying to escape. Even in Berlin, in Germany...
Prabhupāda: They shoot.
Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?
Upendra: They say they worked hard to get there.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Upendra: They worked hard to get there.
Prabhupāda: "To get there" means?
Upendra: To get to their position they worked hard.
Prabhupāda: What is their position?
Prabhupāda: Therefore Communism is coming. Go this way?
Cyavana: Is it this way? We can go this way. This way. Or better this way. Now he's coming the other way.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...create another danger. Just like airplane. It is comfortable. You can quickly go from one place to another. But as soon as on the plane, immediately your life is at risk. There is no certainty. So this is the way of material world. You create some comfort and you create some greater danger also. Side by side. It cannot be unhampered comfort. That is not possible. You create a motorcar—the same thing—you drive very speedy and you meet accident. Railway, the accident. There was no need. You produce your food locally and produce your milk. Then eat, drink, and live comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is wanted. Make your life successful. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22). And if you have got education, then describe the glories of the Lord by your scientific and educational qualification. (break) The rain is coming. We can go this way. Yad uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam (SB 1.5.22).
Prabhupāda: Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is one small coal mining town we did saṅkīrtana at, an Indian community. And they were thinking that "The coal mine is doing everything for us. They're giving us schools, they're giving us medicine, they're giving us... Without the coal mine where would we be?"
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Hm. They are keeping them in control. That is the way they should be kept in control, śūdras. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...very anti-Communist. They have an anti-Communist terrorism act. Anyone who is too much leading in their Communist ideas, they put them away. They have an island called Robert's Island. They simply detain them there indefinitely. (break) Very stable. Very stable.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. That is nice.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They don't have a welfare state here.
Prabhupāda: Why? That is not good. People will be lazy. In special cases the government may give some help, not that the bachelor daddies, and getting welfare, all the girls, and going to be prostitutes. In America they have created purposefully prostitutes. They know they will get money, and they have illicit sex. That's all. The social condition is not good.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is, er... This is one park, Śrīla Prabhupāda. There is less wind here than on the beach.
Prabhupāda: No, we can go to the beach. What is that? If it is closed... (break) (Out of car:) The Indians are also coming to that point. The beginning is the rascal Vivekananda. He says, "Where you are searching God? Don't you see so many gods are loitering in the street, poor? Better you serve them. Why do you go to the temple?" This is their propaganda. That means no conception of God. The Ārya-samājīs also, they say, "There is no God in the temple." So in India the Jains, they also say, "There is no God." The Buddhists, they also say, "There is no God." The Christians, they have got very vague idea. So where is God? No God. It is only we are crying, "Here is God." Otherwise, whole world, they are trying to banish God, the Kaṁsa's policy, "Kill God," whole world, the Communists, total. This is our position. Is it wet?
Prabhupāda: I do not know, but I talked with this gentleman privately. He said... He was a big man in Russia. He said, "Swamiji, after the end of the body everything is finished."
Dr. Patel: They know... These Russians are the only hundred-percent body conscious. The Carvakas. Who are they? They are descendants of Carvakas, these Russians.
Prabhupāda: No, in India also, all these political leaders, big ministers...
Dr. Patel: No, no. The Communism itself is Carvakism in a different way. Our sanātana-dharma is a communist-dharma, when you see the same eye, everyone in equal. But they don't want that way. They want other way. From body consciousness, not from soul consciousness, they want Communism. Sanātana-dharma preaches us Communism from soul consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Where is the understanding of soul? Everyone is puffed up with his body. Nobody considers even that "When I say this finger, 'my finger, my head, my leg...' "
Prabhupāda: No, no. One has to go beyond the mind, but one, those who are stuck up with the mind, they are useless. So the Western philosophers, they are stuck up with the mind. That is the defect. (break) ...bhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. Manorathena, mental concoction, asataḥ. Western philosophers, they take the mind as the soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Hm?
Dr. Patel: Yes. And the Communists think even the matter is more important than the mind. What do you call? Dialectical materialism, that the matter produces consciousness. It is not the consciousness which, I mean, collects matter around it. That is their philosophy. That is this dialectical materialism. They are absolutely wrong. They are even further down than the Western philosophers, mental philosophers.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...is already mentioned in Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...forget to tell him.
Akṣayānanda: I'll tell him definitely, Prabhupāda. (break)
Devotee (1): They are teaching communistic philosophy.
Devotee: We went there to try to sell them some books. They were very hostile.
Prabhupāda: Hostile.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why hostile?
Devotee: Communistic.
Prabhupāda: They are scientific men.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa bada day maya, karibāre jihv jaya, sva-prasāda anna dilo bhāi. Kṛṣṇa is ready. Take prasādam as much as you like.
Harikeśa: The Communists will say we're just exploiting.
Prabhupāda: The Communists may say, but we don't say. They are hungry people, they may say. We are not hungry. Our food is supplied by Kṛṣṇa. Yoga-kṣemaṁ vahāmy aham (BG 9.22). He brings food. So why should the Communists? So we shall go further or return? Hm?
Haṁsadūta: Which way?
Devotee (2): Do you want to go further, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: I can go. What is time?
Harikeśa: Almost seven. (break)
Prabhupāda: (break) ...road?
Devotee (2): This is Curzon Road.
Prabhupāda: Curzon Road. (break) ...religion, we say "cheating religion." We don't accept sentimentally.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then another rascal. If matter is supreme, why don't you combine matter and let it move. So what is that supreme which is moving this matter? If they do not know, then again a rascal, in spite of so much philosophy and so much communism. Why, when Stalin and Lenin died, they simply remained matter? Why it was not moving? Where is that matter?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That they are working on.
Prabhupāda: Again the same rascal. Again another rascal. They are working; therefore we must be satisfied. Postdated check. How you say all these things?
Harikeśa: Well, their philosophy is just a social philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is not perfect.
Prabhupāda: No, what Marx has explained that a man is born in a rich family, from the birth he is millionaire, and another man is trying whole life, but he could not secure more than his provision? That's all. Why this is here?
Harikeśa: That's due to the capitalistic system. Because he is born in a certain kind of a system, then this hereditary birth and wealth comes. But that capitalistic system, if it's more in a socialistic or communistic system, then there is no possibility of that happening. So therefore this inequality doesn't exist.
Prabhupāda: They are trying for the last fifty years. Why the capitalism is not yet gone? Fifty years at least. They started their movement in 1917. Huh? So how many years? More than fifty. Sixty years. Sixty years. What they have done, progress?
Harikeśa: Well, actually, Russia was the wrong place for communism to go. According to Marx, Russia was the last place that should be communistic, because it was agricultural. But the first place should have been like England,
Prabhupāda: So why they did not do that? Another rascaldom. Why you are taking chance in Russia, the foolish country?
Harikeśa: So that when if a country like England or America would become communistic, that would be very good.
Prabhupāda: Why would become? It is not the dictation of rascal Marx. Why they would? Why he is expecting like a fool like that? Why they would accept that philosophy?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Bankrupt does not mean their philosophy is lost. Bankrupt may be due to some other reason. That does not mean the capitalistic philosophy is finished.
Harikeśa: Well, actually the communistic philosophy is strictly economic.
Prabhupāda: Not actually. Don't say "actually." Sometimes you say "accidentally" and sometimes "actually." Such a rascal. (laughter) "By some chance" and sometimes "actually."
Haṁsadūta: Marx's point was that the different systems, they would deteriorate one into the other, and eventually all these countries would have to... They would just evolve into that communistic way of life. That was his, his idea.
Prabhupāda: No, no, then when there will be no capital, naturally they will be communistic. That's all. Nothing to eat...
Haṁsadūta: So it's just some... It's not a philosophy but it's a position that one has to accept out of desperation.
Prabhupāda: So that is described in the Bhāgavatam, that they will be embarrassed with so many problems. That is not a communistic idea. That is the future of Kali-yuga. That is mentioned in the Bhāgavatam. Āchinna-dāra-draviṇā gacchanti giri-kānanam. They will be harassed by famine, taxation, and starvation. Naturally they will be disappointed. Āchinna. That is already told.
Haṁsadūta: Marx, he studied history from a given point and then he just calculated the consequences.
Prabhupāda: No, that point is not new point. It is already stated five thousand years ago. So what credit he has got? If I say, "Now you are thirty-four years. At the end of hundred years you will die," is that discovery?
Haṁsadūta: No. But that was...
Prabhupāda: Everyone knows it. Everyone knows it.
Haṁsadūta: We noticed this year at the book fair that they gave so many stands to the Communist publishers. There were at least ten or fifteen stands. And formerly they were not even allowed. They were not allowed. There was not a single one. Three years ago there was not a single stand which had Communist literature in the book fair, and this year there must have been fifteen.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a worldwide trend towards communism today.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a worldwide trend towards communism. In Europe, communism is becoming very strong. Italy has almost become communistic. Communist party has captured...
Kṛṣṇa-caitanya: Portugal.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Portugal, there's a struggle going on. Even in France the Communist party is very, very strong.
Prabhupāda: Disappointment. Disappointment. People are becoming more and more poverty-stricken. This is the...
Prabhupāda: The European economic problem is failure.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually this oil crisis has been of great help to the Communists, because because of this oil crisis the world economy has fallen, and as people become frustrated, more and more people are turning towards communism.
Prabhupāda: But what the Communist has done for the world benefit?
Harikeśa: Well, it's a nice philosophy.
Prabhupāda: In India there are many Communists, but the price of foodstuff increasing daily. What they can do?
Haṁsadūta: Well, they say "If we were in power, this would not happen."
Prabhupāda: So why don't you become in power? You are strong. And what they have done, those who are already in the power? There is no food. One has to give line for two hours to get foodstuff. I have seen in Moscow.
Prabhupāda: Therefore naturally they are condemned.
Harikeśa: So when you put the communistic system somewhere where you can grow these things, it will be very nice.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: You take that system and put it in a place where you can grow all these things. Then it will be nice.
Prabhupāda: But if you bring communism, you will not be able to grow. You are condemned immediately. Nature will restrict supply. Which way?
Tejās: Left, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Harikeśa: China is doing very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Why not Russia?
Tejās: It's deteriorating.
Prabhupāda: Yes, very much deteriorating. It means finished. The kalā is finished now. You see? Now, "Natural History." So many dead stone they have brought, and so costly building, and showing "natural history." This is going on, simply cheating and bluffing at the cost of poor man's blood. Against this principle the communist movement is good. There are so many buildings, but there is not a single building where spiritual culture is discussed, although it is the real basis of life. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...and not getting sufficient milk, their growth is checked. This is kalākendra.
Harikeśa: They have powdered milk.
Prabhupāda: That is simply cheating, powdered milk. It is white water, that's all. Powdered milk means white water. It has no value.
Harikeśa: In the communistic system everybody works very hard.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what they claim, but everything belongs to the state. Why should they work hard?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambarīṣa: They work very hard because they have a gun pointed at their head.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now the Russians are gradually trying to change to the American system in the sense that if a worker produces more, he is given some bonus. They are trying to give incentives to the workers so that they are tempted to work hard.
Prabhupāda: But what they will do with the money?
Prabhupāda: They will have to divert because both, either Chinese or Russian, these are all rascaldom. It is not perfect system.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the chairman of the Russian Communist Party, Mr. Brezhnev, he has about fifteen foreign cars. Each time a foreign dignitary goes, he gives him a special car. So everyone is supposed to be equal, but he is not equal. He has fifteen cars for himself. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...clean city. (break) It is not the same New Delhi as five or ten years before. Huh?
Tejās: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here?
Tejās: Five years, four and a half years.
Prabhupāda: So what do you think?
Prabhupāda: Not Birlas, everyone. (laughing)
Dr. Patel: (also laughing) I don't know, sir. But I... I am a rebellion against them. In 1958, sir, I told you, the Congress, when I was a member of Congress, that I can't be the member of such an institution which just simply lies, telling white lies.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You may say about congressman, and this one, Communist man; everyone is under...
Dr. Patel: Is a rascal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our verdict. Mūḍha. We understand from Bhagavad-gītā...
Dr. Patel: Why mūḍha, sir. Mudhatamaḥ!
Prabhupāda: Yes, vimūḍha. Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says not only mūḍha but vimūḍha; viśeṣa-mūḍha especifical. Prahlādah Mahārāja says the same thing: tato vimūkha-cetasā. Vimūkha cetasā means one who does not accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme. Tato vimukha-cetasa soce, and simply thinking of desires. Who are this? Those who are nondevotees, one who does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Tato vimukha-cetasa. So why you are searching? Māy-sukhāya: simply for so-called sense gratification for a few days, bhāram udvahato vimūḍhān, making big, big plans. I am thinking of these rascals. What for they are making big, big plans? They will stay here for a few days, and forgetting Kṛṣṇa consciousness they are busy in making plans. This is Prahlāda Mahārāja. And Kṛṣṇa says they are mūḍha, vimūḍha. As soon as you find one, not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he's immediately mūḍha, vimūḍha. Na mā duṣkṛtino mūḍh prapdyante narādhamāḥ.
Harikeśa: Dialectical spiritualism.
Prabhupāda: Ye.... Not dia.... Dialectical means keep spiritualism or materialism. It is dialectic. Two sides there are, the material and the spiritual. These ignorant rascals, cats—and dogslike men, they have no information of the thing which is covered. They're simply dealing with the covering. Therefore their knowledge is imperfect, and they're not successful by so many theses. They do not know the real problem. Who is enjoyer? That they do not know. That enjoyer is covered. And they are talking on the cover. That.... In Bengal, it is a proverb, said, that: Sobraniye tanatan.(?) In the.... I think I was talking on this. In the coconut. The coconut sweet pulp and water is within. And they are struggling with the fibers above the coconut. Coconut.... They have got some information coconut is enjoyable, but where is the enjoyable article is there, that they do not know. They have simply information this body, and the coconut's body is covered with fibers. And they are fighting with the fibers. None of these so-called capitalists or, what is called, Communists, they do not know where is the real substance is. Superficially, they are fighting on the platform of fiber covering. That's all. Sobraniye tanatan,(?) this Bengali word exactly.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Harikeśa: ...Communist movement.
Prabhupāda: There is need of movement.
Harikeśa: No, no. I mean there's no need for any organized Communist movement, because according to their philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they're fools. They're as fools. They are simply criticizing the capitalists, that much. That much, there is something ideal that the state property should be equally divided. That's a good thesis. But they do not know that it is not the ultimate solution. You do not know who is the proprietor. You do not know the proprietor. These things belong to Him. You are using it. I am thinking that "You are proprietor." But actually you are not proprietor. He is proprietor. If that is the position, then I take it from you that: "You cannot possess. I shall possess." Then what is my possess? The same thing. As you took it, took it out from this man, so I took it, take it from you. So my position is the same. If you cannot find out who is the actual proprietor, then you may change hands. The problem remains there, that it, it does not belong to you. You are forcibly snatching from the proprietor, or without knowing the proprietor, you are making arrangement. What is the value of this arrangement?
| Page Title: | Communism (Conv. 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 26 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=157, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 157 |