Citizens (Conversations)

Expressions researched:
"citizen" |"citizen's" |"citizenry" |"citizens" |"citizenship"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: The speaker of this book is Lord Kṛṣṇa, and the subject matter of this book is what is our relationship with God. Then, after understanding what is our relationship with God, we can work accordingly. Just like you are citizen of America, you have got a particular relationship with the state, and you are expected to work according to that relationship, and then you are good citizen, you are law-abiding citizen, and state gives your all protection, and you can improve to the highest perfectional stage. Similarly, if we know our relationship with God, whom we call Kṛṣṇa.

Interview -- March 9, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: The mistake of the human civilization is that they have forgotten the relationship with God. So here is the scientific statement of our relationship with God. And then, according to that relationship, exactly in the same way, just like understanding your relationship, your citizenship in a state you can act nicely, similarly if we know our relationship with God, we can act very nicely and that is peaceful life.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: State is meant for punishing the criminals and giving protection to the law-abiding citizen. Wherefrom this idea is taken? It is taken from Viṣṇu. Everything. Because He is the supreme maintainer. So everything is required for maintaining.

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: So if you actually making progress in devotional service, you are constantly in touch with the purest. Kṛṣṇa is the purest. Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhama pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). "You are the paraṁ brahma, Supreme Brahman." Brahman, every living entity is Brahman but He is paraṁ brahma, the leader of the Brahman. Just like the president is the first citizen of the state. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa is also a living entity, but supreme living entity. Just like the first citizen. So similarly, every living entity is Brahman, but paraṁ brahma is one. That is Kṛṣṇa. And therefore in the Brahma-saṁhitā it is confirmed, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ (Bs. 5.1). Kṛṣṇa is... Everyone īśvara, more or less controller. Lord Śiva, Lord Brahmā, Indra, Varuṇa, Vāyu, Candra, Sūrya. There are so many. They're all demigods.

Room Conversation -- April 11, 1969, New York:

Prabhupāda: The inquiry is, "What is Brahman, Absolute Truth?" The Vedānta-sūtra answers... The Vedānta-sūtra is made like that, questions and answers like that. So answer is janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything is emanating." He is the ultimate fountainhead of everything. Just now we tried to explain that the state functions protecting the good citizens and punishing the criminals. That should be the state business. Wherefrom this idea came? The law and... What is called? The law and order department or what is that?

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: That is the whole process of spiritual life. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya māṁ ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Don't manufacture ways and means, falsely trying to lord it over. That will... You'll not be happy because you cannot lord it over the material nature. It is impossible. If we try to violate the government laws, is it possible for me? No. If I am to live as a citizen, it is not possible for me. Then I'll implicate more and more. This is crude example. Similarly, we are part and parcel of the Supreme. Just like there is a story, Udarendriyānām. Hitopadeśa. You heard the name of Hitopadeśa?

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Secularism is a bogus thing. You see? That is an indulgence, "Whatever you like, you can do. Whatever religion you follow, that's all..." No. That is not good. The state should be responsible for the spiritual progress of the citizens. Now, especially in our country, we say it is Hindustan, Bhāratavarṣa. So we are not giving the bhāratīya or Hindu spiritual cultural education. So that's a great loss of the secular state.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Of course, so far Vedic culture is concerned, they advocated monarchy because the one man's training, a good king guided by the brahminical culture, although it was autocratic sometimes, but because the king was very cultured there was no possibility of doing any harm to the citizens. But democracy means simply they are given the post by votes, and they may be all rascals. Then what they can think of good to the citizens?

Room Conversation -- December 21, 1970, Surat:

Prabhupāda: No. They should make the citizens so nicely developed in their Kṛṣṇa consciousness that they should be self-dependent, self-satisfied. That is the ideal of civilization.

Yadubara: But America is so far from that.

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is not advancement, although they are very much proud of advancement. This is not sign of advancement. According to Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate: (Bg. 6.20-23) "If one is situated in such a position that even in the greatest, gravest type of dangerous position, he is not agitated, he is not agitated, that is the real happiness." Yasmin sthite guruṇāpi duḥkhena na vicālyate. These are the words, yasmin sthite: "Situated in such a position that although he is facing greatest danger, he is not agitated." There is one instance.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respects.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: We are interested in different thing. So similarly, naturally there is a division. The intelligent class of men, they like to study philosophy, they like to understand what is the ultimate goal of life, so many things. So intelligent class of men should be engaged in that business. They should not be dragged in other platform. And those who are inclined to take part in politics, administration, that class also should be trained how to rule over the country, how to make satisfied the citizens. They should be trained up, as in business people are trained up.

Room Conversation -- December 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: You cannot become a millionaire so easy, or he cannot be a citizen in the heavenly planet so easy. That is our experience. So if some man from a poor family becomes, wants to become a citizen of America, a rich man, it is not so easy. You have to undergo through so many things to get the citizenship. There are so many, that your country, yes, they have got big immigration department simply to consider this application of different countries for citizenship, or to immigrate. I have seen, in Montreal, people applying for citizenship or immigration, big line, very big line, and a similar immigration department in Canada, there is no problem. So people very much anxious to become citizens in America, because it's a rich country. So as there is restriction here in this place, in this planet, that you cannot enter any other country... If you think their country is very nice, actually, in comparison to other countries, there are so many facilities in America. At least, one can earn money like anything. So people are inclined to become citizen. But that is not easy, even within this planet. So how you will easily enter moon planet and other heavenly planets without being competent? It is not possible.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: So because the grandfather of Vena Maharaja was a bad man, his daughter means Sunīthā, the mother of Vena, she became bad. And naturally her son, Vena, she (he) became bad. The father was very nice, good king. But because the mother was not good, the son became bad. Here is the evidence. Sunīthā-garbha-sambhavaḥ. Sunīthā, his mother's name was Sunīthā. Because he was born in the womb of Sunīthā, a bad woman, therefore, he... Nirūpitaḥ prajā-pālaḥ sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ. He has been elected as the king to protect the citizens. Instead of protecting, he is disturbing.

nirūpitaḥ prajā-pālaḥ

sa jighāṁsati vai prajāḥ

tathāpi sāntvayemāmuṁ

nāsmāṁs tat-pātakaṁ spṛśet

(SB 4.14.11)

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: So therefore, a saintly person duty is to protect the praja, the citizens, in a system so that they may become happy both materially and spiritually. This is one of the duties of the saintly person. Not that let me go to Himalaya and press my nose and I become liberated. This is not saintly person. This is not saintly person. Saintly person means they should be interested with the public welfare, real public welfare. And public welfare means every citizens should be Kṛṣṇa conscious, and then they will be happy both materially and spiritually. My point is that our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is not selfish movement.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as soon as we think of Kṛṣṇa (it) means all energies of Kṛṣṇa. That is complete by saying "Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Rādhā represents all the energy of Kṛṣṇa. And Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord. So when we speak of Kṛṣṇa, the living entities are also included. Because the living entities are energies, different energies of Kṛṣṇa, superior energy. So when this energy is not serving the energetic, that means material existence. The whole world is not serving Kṛṣṇa. They are serving Kṛṣṇa in a different way. they are serving Kṛṣṇa indirectly. Just like disobedient citizens, they serve the government indirectly. They have come to the prison house on account of their disobedience of the laws of the state. So in the prison house they're forced to obey the laws of the state. Similarly, all the living entities here, they're godless. Either by ignorance or by his will, he doesn't like to accept the supremacy of God. Demonic. So we are trying to bring them in their original condition. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: No. So good karma means performance of the yajñas as they are prescribed in the Vedic literature. And this purpose of this yajña is to satisfy the Supreme Lord. Just like good citizen means one who satisfies the government. Law-abiding. Good citizen. Similarly, good karma means who satisfies Lord Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and what to speak of satisfying Him. They do not know. They are simply busy in material activities. Therefore, all of them are doing only bad karma, and therefore they are suffering.

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, the central stomach of the whole creation is God, or Kṛṣṇa. He's the enjoyer and He's the friend. He's maintaining everyone. Eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. Therefore He's friend of everyone. And everywhere... He is maintaining means everywhere He's the proprietor. Just like a king can maintain the whole country, citizens, because he's the proprietor. Without being proprietor, how he can become everyone's friend? So these things have to be understood, that Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, and Kṛṣṇa is friend. If you know these three things, then your knowledge is full. You do not require to understand anything more. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa by these three formulas, then your knowledge is complete. You don't require any more knowledge. But people will not agree. "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be proprietor? Hitler shall be proprietor. Yayha Khan should be proprietor. (laughter) Nixon shall be proprietor." That is going on. Therefore you are in trouble.

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service.

Room Conversation -- July 4, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: When one becomes devotee, he is controlled directly by God. When he is nondevotee, he is controlled by His agent, māyā. But he has to be controlled. Just like every citizen of America is controlled by the government. When he's all right, his civil department controls him. When he's not all right, then the criminal department controls him. But he cannot say that "I am not controlled." That is not possible. If somebody says, "I am not controlled," he is not sane. He is crazy. Everyone is controlled. So either you be controlled directly by God or you be controlled by his agency. Being controlled by māyā, you spoil your life. That means you remain in the material existence, one after another.

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: Laws of nature there is, and everyone is under the laws of nature. Nobody can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws. Every citizen is bound to abide by the state law. He cannot overcome it. If..., if he overcomes it then, or violates it, the violation of law, and he becomes punishable. Similarly the laws of nature means laws of God. Just like your president is the giver of your state law. Similarly, as soon as we say laws of nature, there must be giver of them. In our śāstra, the Vedic literature, it is said, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharma, religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those laws. When we do not abide by those laws, then we violate the laws of nature, of God, and we become punishable.

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: This is the cure: I am making good character. Don't you see their face? Some of them were hippies, frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright faces, serious character. They don't have any illicit sex. They don't eat meat. They don't have any intoxication. They don't engage in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how you can expect good citizen? That is not possible. Their character must reform. So we have taken from the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity, God conscious. Don't you appreciate it?

Interview -- July 5, 1972, New York:

Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. This body you have to give up, today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. You have to give it up. The Bhagavad-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), he comes to Me. So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead.

Room Conversation and Interview with Ian Polsen -- July 31, 1972, London:

Prabhupāda: (laughs) The, our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned, he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā—that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy, that's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation and Interview with Ian Polsen -- July 31, 1972, London:

Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principles. That is another thing. But moral principles we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principles. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the..., where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that "Thou shalt not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's... Factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, all over the world. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government.

Interview with the New York Times -- September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: Yes, it should come forward. My students here are all United States citizens. I have not imported them from India. They are Americans, and they are in difficulty. So why shouldn't the government come forward? Their character is being formed, and they are becoming God conscious by participating in this movement. The government is spending millions of dollars to stop LSD and other drug intoxication, but my students are giving up everything simply by following my word. So why isn't the government coming forward to help me?

John Nordheimer: They don't care about the people, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: But don't they want good for their own men? I am stopping American boys and girls from taking LSD and other drugs, and the government is spending millions of dollars to do this. It is only practical that they come forward to support this movement.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Now there may be difference of process, according to country, time, people. Therefore, it is the duty of the government, it is the duty of the government... Hare Kṛṣṇa (someone enters). Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department?

Guest 2: Excuse me, my English is very poor. I would like Mr. Kunti to translate, Indonesian. (Indonesian)

Devotee: He would like to have him translate English to Indonesian.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Yes. They must be the same. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣad bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the course, or the laws given by God. Just like law means the law given by the state. I cannot manufacture law. The citizen cannot manufacture law. The law is manufactured by the legislative assembly of the government. Similarly, religion means the order given by God. Now we have to understand who is God, and what is His order, and how it is applicable to everyone. That is the system of religion. We cannot whimsically give some rituals as religion. The principle of religion is to obey the orders of God. Therefore the first principle is to know who is God. Unless I know what is God, then how I can know what is His order? So in the Bhagavad-gītā, the religion is given that—(Aside:) you are feeling sleepy, you can go—the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is religion. We have manufactured so many types of religion, and here God says that "You give up your manufactured religion. You just surrender unto Me." This is religion. Religion means to surrender. A good citizen means to surrender to the government law. Similarly, a religious person means who has surrendered to God.

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: True living. Yes. True, just like good citizens...

Guest (2): That's right.

Prabhupāda: Good citizenship means living under the direction of the government. That is good citizenship. Similarly, human life means to live nicely under the direction of God. The cats and dogs, they cannot understand. But the human life, (pause) That first verse: imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam, vivasvān manave prāha manur ikṣvākave 'bravīt (BG 4.1). So what is your explanation of this verse?

Guest (2): You want to explain this into er... Do you want to explain this?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Then He must be proprietor. But we are falsely claiming that, "I am the proprietor." So how you can be in peace? Suppose you steal something, somebody's property, and falsely claim, "I am proprietor," you'll never be peace because it is not your thing. You have stolen it. So in this way, if you... philosophy can be studied that God is the Supreme Proprietor, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthāḥ (ISO 1). You can simply use what is given to you. You cannot claim other's property. Just like in animal life, animal life, they do not claim that "This is my country." The birds, they do not claim, but they live very peacefully. There are crows, there are spa... What is called? So many birds, they live anywhere, everywhere, but they do not claim, "Oh, this is my country. This is my place." They do not claim. Therefore they are free to move everywhere. So we have created a situation, Godless situation, therefore we are not in peace. So therefore, if you want peace, you must accept God, first of all. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati (BG 5.29), this is the way of śānti. You cannot create your śānti in your own way. That is not possible. Just like the citizens, if they create their own way of śānti, there cannot be peace.

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Scholar: Herein we find the history of the Bhagavad-gītā traced from a remote time when it was delivered to the royal order, the king of all planets. This science is especially meant for the perfection of the inhabitants, and therefore, the royal order should understand it in order to be able to rule the citizens and protect them from material bondage to lust. Human life is meant for cultivation of spiritual knowledge, the eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the executive heads of all states and all planets are obliged to impart this lesson to the citizens by education, culture and devotion. In other words, the executive heads of all states are intended to spread the science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that the people may take advantage of this great science and pursue a successful path, utilizing the opportunity of the human form of life...

Prabhupāda: This Vivasvān is the original person of the kṣatriya family, Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Scholar: Sūrya-vaṁśa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They know. Because they have full knowledge, "He knows here is God. Although he is four-handed, I am four-handed, but here is God." Because there is full knowledge. That is the difference. Here we are selecting some rascal as God, because we have no full knowledge. There, in the Vaikuṇṭha planets, although the common citizens and God is of the same feature of the bodily, but they know, "Here is God, the Supreme." He has got special signs in the... Yes, that's all. Just like the king or the president, we may make mistake. We may accept somebody as "Here is president." No. But the associates of the president, he knows. They know that "Here is president." Similarly, there is no question of mistake there. Four kinds of defects of material life—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat, and imperfection of the senses—these things are not there. Everyone's senses are perfect. When he sees God, he sees perfectly. He does not mistake. He is not illusioned. And there is no cheating and there is no imperfection of the senses. There is no mistake. These are spiritual life.

Room Conversation with Krishna Tiwari -- May 22, 1973, New York:

Prabhupāda: You cannot avoid it. So everyone is under the laws the nature. Let us decide on that. Now these laws of nature, these also controlled by somebody else. As we gave the example that every individual person within a state is controlled by the laws of government or laws of king. Now it is governed by democracy. Formerly it was under the king. So king is a person. He gives the law, and under that law all citizens are controlled. This is a fact.

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That king should be a representative of God. That is ideal king. But if he thinks that "This kingdom is my property, and let me enjoy for my sense enjoyment," then it is all gone. If he thinks himself as representative of God... Just like we think. Therefore we are after our disciples: "Do this, do that, do that, do that." We want to see that my disciples also become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Similarly, it is the king's duty to see that every citizen becomes God conscious. Then he is representative of God. That is the first duty. The division must be there, and the, it is the duty of the king to see that everyone is discharging according to his responsibility. That is king's duty.

Room Conversation with David Wynne, Sculptor -- July 9, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. What, what is the value of those jewels to her? But if some citizen offers in good faith and love, she accepts. That's all.

David Wynne: Is it right thinking to think that one, although one can't give anything... Kṛṣṇa, of course, has everything. Should one not praise Him? Because...

Prabhupāda: No, no. You should praise Him, certainly. That is bhakti. That is bhakti. Yes.

Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No. When they are in opposition, they have to accept this material body. Just like the citizens in the prison house, it means they are all in opposition to the laws of the state, similarly, anyone who is in this material world, they are in opposition to the supreme will of the Lord. Therefore they are put into this material world in varieties of life. So they can stop that opposition and again go back to home, back to Godhead.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas, to become king, to fight for the protection of the citizens, to become charitably disposed. Everything is described there. These are the kṣatriya's karma. These the brāhmaṇa's karma. These are the, eh, vaiśya's karma. These are the śūdra's karma. So sva-dharma means to execute the prescribed karma. That is sva-dharma. Dharma karma. Dharma means karma, but prescribed. You are brāhmaṇa, you have to act as a brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: No. There's... Just like you are a citizen of French government. You are also independent. If the government says that if you do this, then you'll be punished. So when you do that, that is misuse of independence. Otherwise you are independent.

Room Conversation with British Man -- August 31, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: From practical life, just like world's principal religion, Christianism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Mohammedanism also, the principle of not killing is there, every religion. Buddhism, they're completely for not killing. No circumstances, at any circumstances killing is not allowed. Similarly, in Vedic religion, killing is not allowed, but at circumstances, it is allowed. Similarly Christianity, they also say, "Thou shall not kill." Mohammedans also, they allow killing, but circumstantially. So the principle of killing is forbidden every religion, every religion. So the principle of religion is one. Take for example, in every religion there is acceptance of God and religion means to abide by the order of God. So how there can be two religions? There cannot be two religions. "I believe like that, we believe like that." These are man-made. But actual religion is that God is one and religion means the orders, the law given by God. That's all. Simple definition. Just like state is one, government is one, and to become good citizen means to abide by the laws of the government. That's all.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are Muslim, and, it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty. You cannot give up religion. Dharmena hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government's duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous, "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think?

Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible.

Prabhupāda: No. No, politics means to see that people are advanced, citizens are advanced, not that they are degraded.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Kṣat means injury, and triya means one who delivers. Just like Parīkṣit Mahārāja, immediately took his sword, "Oh, why you are injuring one cow in my kingdom?" The kṣatriya's business is to give protection to the citizens from being injured by others. That is called kṣatriya. Brāhmaṇa means whose knowledge is so perfect that he knows what is God. That is brāhmaṇa. And śūdra means one who laments. Śocati ti śūdra. (?) Śocati.

Śrutakīrti: Na śocati na kāṅkṣati.

Prabhupāda: Śocati means in everything he laments. "Hai hai, I have lost so much things, I have not these things, I have not that thing." So at the present moment, all the people, they are so dissatisfied that they are all śūdras. Śūdra is always in want. So who is not, at the present moment, not in want? Everybody's in want.

Room Conversation -- November 3, 1973, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: "So this living entity has given service." But other men, he's very honestly living as a good citizen, as a good family member and good brāhmaṇa, good kṣatriya... So ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. He's sticking to his own principle of life, but he's not a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee. Then what is his gain? He'll simply take the fruits of his material activities and he'll have to accept another body according to that. But here, as it is assured in Bhagavad-gītā that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate (BG 6.41), this man, who took by sentiment Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but could not follow it to the end; by some way or other, he has fallen but he'll be given chance to take birth as a human being, guaranteed, in rich family, or in nice devotee family, yogi family or brāhmaṇa family.

Morning Walk -- December 4, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Many exceptions are there, mām eva ye prapadyante. Those who are devotee, they are not under māyā. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you do not violate the laws of God... (break) ...there is no question of being... (break)...by māyā. If you surrender... (break) ...ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (BG 18.66). (break) ...if the government protects everyone who is surrendered to the laws of the God, government. The government will give all protection. If he is a law-abiding citizen, he must be given protection, all protection.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...has done a great mistake. I never expected... (noise) ...all of a sudden... (break) You see the so-called swamis and yogis. They could not do anything, because they are outsider. They are not within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. One must remain within the jurisdiction of Kṛṣṇa. Then his spiritual life is assured. Otherwise, paramour(?). (break) Similarly, everything, everyone belongs to Kṛṣṇa's family, but we have to see what he's doing for Kṛṣṇa. Just like everyone is citizen of the state. Why a man is given high position and big title? Why? Because he's recognized.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...in confusion. That is chaotic condition. Every citizen says, "I don't accept government law. I have got my own law." It is confusion.

Bali Mardana: Where is the result of your...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Bali Mardana: We can say, "Where is the result of your belief?"

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the government's duty, that the citizens may not degrade. That is government's duty. Now, just like a father thinks, "Now, these children have come under my protection. I must see they get proper education and make advancement of life." It is the father's duty. And if the father thinks, "Let him go to hell." That's all. Nowadays fathers are doing like that. That is not father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that the citizen must make progress. But they do not know what is means by progress, what is the aim of life. They do not know. They are demonic. How they will guide? They think, like cats and dogs, "If you get fatty and you can eat more, then your life is successful." Their thinking is very poor. Simply physical strength, they think that is success.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.

Room Conversation -- March 20, 1974, Bombay:

Guest: Because in the court of law you require a person who should be Indian citizen, and he should have some...

Prabhupāda: Then that... No, Indian citizen we have got. Just like here. He is Indian man. Or to the... But in proportion, they are not even one percent. That is the difficulty. And if the government likes that if they make it without... Just like I was refused entrance in Africa, Nairobi. So if the government says that... There, they understand that these Americans making this satyagrama (?), or as you have proposed, then immediately, within twenty-four hours, they will be deported. Then I do not know who will manage my, so many establishment. Therefore if the Hindus and the Vaiṣṇavas, they combine together that "This is an important proposal," they go to the court, they give their signature, they come here, that will be nice. It may be long time. That doesn't matter. But that will be solid thing. And if the government becomes, "Oh, these Americans are making this propaganda," at any moment they can ask that "Within twenty-four hours you get out."

Morning Walk -- April 17, 1974, Bombay:

Girirāja: "...must go unpunished. This is itself the business of criminal and lawless men who have no knowledge what it means to protect the citizens under their charge." (break)

Prabhupāda: Therefore it is rogues. So what is the value of that laws? The legislative assembly means a set of rogues, and if they legislate something, what is the value of that? (break) Caught like that, yes. Because people are becoming degraded, so they elected such degraded everything. (break) Shameless. The whole nation is asking that "You resign." "No." Such shameless. (break) ...that somebody was in the room, and the outsider says, "Who is in the room?" "No, no! I am not stealing!" (laughter) "No, no, I am not stealing."

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So at the present moment, the godless civilization... Therefore the leaders, they do not know how to lead people so that they may become happy. It is the duty of the leader, government, father, teacher, gurus, to see that the subordinates are very, very happy. We find in the history of Mahābhārata that during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira people were not suffering even from excessive heat or cold or any anxiety. So it is the duty of the leaders of the people and the government to see that the citizens are perfectly happy in their occupational duties and they are advancing in spiritual knowledge, because human life is not to live a polished animal life. That is not human life.

Room Conversation -- April 26, 1974, Tirupati:

Prabhupāda: That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Religion means the codes and the laws given by the Lord. That is religion. So if one does not surrender to the Lord, then what kind of religion it is? It is not religion. Just like good citizen means who abides by the law of the state. If he does not care for the laws, then what kind of good citizen he is? Similarly, if one does not surrender to the Supreme, then his religion has no meaning. It is simply cheating, that's all. What is your name?

Indian man: Raja Gopal Iyengar.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: There are two things. We recommend two things. For the mass of people, this prayer, kīrtana, a prayer. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma. So this is prayer. Hare means appealing to the energy of God, and Kṛṣṇa is God. "O the energy of God, O God, please engage me in your service." This is the sum and substance of the Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hare: "O the energy of God, 'Kṛṣṇa,' O the Lord, please engage me in Your service." Because we are now engaged in the service of Satan, māyā. I think... Māyā. So therefore we are suffering. Service we have to render. Because we are meant for rendering service. But when you forget God, then you render service to māyā. Therefore it is the prayer to God that "Please pick me from this service and engage me to Your service." That's all. Service is my occupation. I cannot become master. That is not possible. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they sometimes say that "We are now in māyā. As soon as we are out in māyā, then we become master." We do not agree to this philosophy. We remain servant even after liberation. We are servant here and we are servant always. Just like a citizen and government.

Room Conversation with Catholic Cardinal and Secretary to the Pope -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Cardinal Pignedoli: Local people. Local citizens.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So our process is so nice, that is recommended process in this age—the chanting the holy name of God. So we chant this holy name of God, perhaps you have seen. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, we dance.

Morning Walk at Villa Borghese -- May 25, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. This is the civilization, cheating, bluffing. That's all. They don't care for the citizens. And as soon as there is some agitation, they declare war, so that they can be engaged, attention is diverted. This is going on.

Morning Walk -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: That is... Bad condition is good conditioning. Where is freedom? From bad conditioning you are suggesting good conditioning. That is not freedom. Just like you are in the prison house, you are badly conditioned, but the so-called freedom—you are still conditioned under the laws of the state. You are not free. But from bad conditioning to good conditioning. And if you obey the state laws, then you are good citizen. But you are conditioned. How you think of freedom? That is your foolishness. Just like a servant. He is in some mercantile firm. He is trying to seek out some government service. But he cannot be free.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement?

Prabhupāda: That I do not know, but many French men came to see me, and...

Yogeśvara: Last year, at Hotel De Ville.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yogeśvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel De Ville.

Prabhupāda: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publications that will come.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy.

Morning Walk -- June 12, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So a simple person is more intelligent than the so-called sophisticated citizens. Decorating the dead body. I think in my Back to Godhead I wrote this article.

Reporters Interview -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: All right. So there cannot be... but for particular reason or circumstances we call it, but religion is one. That means to abide by the laws of God. That is religion. If you do not know what is God, what is His law, that is another thing. But the religion means to abide by the laws of God, that's all. It cannot be Hindu, Muslim, Christian. Just like the state law. So there are many persons, citizens of the state. The law is not that it is for the Christians, it is for the Jews, it is for the Negroes, it is for the white man. It is not like that. Law is the same for everyone. You can call it, "This is Negro law, this is white law, this is black law..." No. That is not very scientific. Scientific is that God is there and we are all... God is great, we are all subordinates and we have to obey the orders of God. That is religion. Am I right or wrong?

Guest (2): You're right.

Room Conversation -- August 12, 1975, Paris (with French translator):

Prabhupāda: So the God, He is also with me always as friend. So one, it is said in the Upaniṣad, there are two birds in one tree. The two birds means I, individual soul, and God, the Supreme Soul. The individual soul is limited within this body. And God is everywhere, in every body, in every atomic particle, everywhere. Because I am individual soul, I can understand my bodily pains and pleasure. But I cannot understand your bodily pains and pleasure. But God, being all-pervading, He can understand my pains and pleasure, He can understand your pains and pleasure, He can understand cats' and dogs' pains and..., everyone. This is the difference between me and God. Sometimes they mistake, because God is also within this body, I am also within this body, therefore they think that there is no other individual soul than God, therefore I am God. So if I am God, then you are also God. And if there is more than one God, there is not God. God is one. There cannot be two. So if I think I am God, then everyone is also God, so God becomes plural, so there is not God. God is one. Therefore, God is great, we are small. In quality we are one. Just like the president and the citizen, as man they are one. But in power, the citizen and the president, they are different. So these things can be understood if one is sober and very great thinker: they can understand that God is situated with me, He can help me also.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: That is the Vedic description. The religious principles cannot be manufactured by anyone within this universe. It is the codes or laws given by God. That is religion. That means we have to know who is God, what is His desire, and we have to abide by that. That is religion. Just like a good citizen means he knows the government and the government laws and he abides by it. Then he is good citizen. Otherwise he is criminal. If he does not abide by the laws of the state, he is criminal. Similarly, if one does not abide by the orders or the codes or the laws of God, he is Satan or demon. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Therefore anyone who is disobedient to God, he cannot have any good qualification. And yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate suraḥ. And one who is devotee, abiding by the orders of God, he has got all the good qualification of God's. Therefore, the duty of the state, duty of the father, duty of the teacher, everyone, those who are guardians—they should teach their subordinate how to become faithful to God. This one qualification will make him perfect. That is not being done. Everyone is godless mostly. And therefore there is problems, chaotic condition. Nobody is abiding by the supreme law. Everyone is creating his own law. That is the trouble. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for making the human society law-abiding citizen of the laws given by God.

Morning Walk -- (World War III) -- April 4, 1975, Mayapur:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Take Indian citizenship?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Indian citizenship?

Prabhupāda: If you take, it is very nice. Then they will ask you to go to war. (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Will this war spread to many different countries and continents?

Prabhupāda: The actual war will be between America and Russia.

Rūpānuga: What about British devotees, British citizens? Would the British be asked to leave, British citizens? Commonwealth citizens?

Prabhupāda: Britishers are now finished. They have no importance.

Pañcadraviḍa: He means if British devotees came to India, would they be asked to leave.

Prabhupāda: No, no, I mean to say... I am speaking of politics. Devotees are the same... Oh, British citizens...? They may...

Rūpānuga: You say the Americans might have to leave. What about the British?

Prabhupāda: But they, generally, during wartime...

Viṣṇujana: Everyone.

Prabhupāda: ...they ask all foreigners.

Morning Walk -- April 5, 1975, Mayapur:

Devotee: ...citizens in the state are punished by the government by being put into the prison house and that similarly, in this human form of life, if we are irresponsible, then we are punished by God by birth and death. So what about the man who is responsible for his family and executes his duty ni...

Prabhupāda: Well, that is... Cats and dogs have also responsible for the family. What is credit for him?

Devotee: Well, what actually is responsibility?

Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog also allows the nipple to be sucked by the cubs. That is family maintenance. So what credit do you get by family maintenance? Why do you specially claim any benefit by maintain...? That is being done by the cats and dogs. Do you think that the animals do not take care of their children? Then if you take, then what is the difference between him and yourself? You are also the cats and dogs. Your main business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Discussion -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Nobody is independent. And still, everyone is thinking independent, "I can do anything I like." Yesterday morning we were talking. You are independent. That is, means, misuse of independence. Just like in a state every citizen is independent but dependent on the state laws. If he forgets that, that "I am not dependent on the state laws," then he is foolish. Similarly, if one does not know that "The nature's law is the God's law, state laws; I cannot violate it," (sic:) then he is sober. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One man is dying. A dhīra knows that he is changing his body; he is not dying. He will get another body. Dhīra, sober. And one who is not sober, he says, "No, life is finished." Or he can imagine he is going to heaven or hell. But a dhīra knows what is going to happen to him. If he was in the material modes of nature, goodness, then he is going to higher planetary system. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. From śāstra we can understand. If he is in passion, then he will stay in this material world.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: If you don't carry out the order of the government, then you are not a good citizen.

Guest (1): Now, you look like you're either English or...

Prabhupāda: We are neither English nor American. We are servant of God.

Guest (1): I know. You're brotherhood of man. But just my own curiosity... Of course, you have converts of all...

Prabhupāda: No convert. Actually we are. Just like you have got this different dress from me. That does not mean you are convert to the dress. You are a gentleman; I am a gentleman. That's all.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: ...the animals. Take, for example, the cows. If the master is Kṛṣṇa conscious they are not killed. And if the master is a rogue, they are killed. They have no knowledge how to protect themself. They take shelter of a master. So if the master is good, then their life is safe. And if the master is rogue, then they are killed. So it requires the leader. Formerly the kings were saintly, rājarṣi. Therefore there was peace. You cannot expect the mass of people very intelligent. That is not possible. They are generally in darkness. They believe that "Somebody, this man, will give us protection." But the man is treacherous. He sits down on the post of giving protection, but he kills. This is going on. Therefore if the leaders become nice, Kṛṣṇa conscious, then everything will be all right. (break) These rogues, by force, by device, they all occupy the government post. Formerly, Vedic, the king was trained up very nicely by the brāhmaṇas, guided by the brāhmaṇas, and they would do nicely. (break) ...now thousands of kings. The president, the secretary, the minister, this senator, everyone is king. Because everyone is in the business of exploitation. That's all. Formerly there was one king. Now, in the name of democracy, there are thousands of kings. And the poor citizens, they have to satisfy all of them.

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: And theology is science of God. So what is that science? You are trying to understand God, or you know God; you are going to abide by God's dictation. First of all, two things: you do not know God; you are trying to find out God. I think this is not theology; it is theosophy. Those who are trying to find out God by speculation, they are theosophist. And theologist means one who knows God and abides by his order. Just like we know government and we accept the government's law and abide by it. That is good citizenship. And those who have no government, they are trying to find out some good system of government, and that is another thing. So what is your position? You know God or you are trying to find out God? What is the theologician's position? That is my question.

Room Conversation with Lt. Mozee, Policeman -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is the difficulty. We do not know the meaning of religion. At the present moment the human society does not know what is the meaning of religion. The meaning of religion is to abide by the laws of God, just like a good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state, of the government. Because we have no understanding of God, therefore we do not know what is the laws of God, and therefore we do not know what is religion. That is the present status of the human society. They are forgetting religion. They take religion as a kind of faith. Faith may be blind faith. Faith is not the real description of religion. Religion means the laws which is given by God, and anyone who follows the laws, he is religious. It doesn't matter whether he is a Christian or a Hindu or Muslim. If he follows the laws of God, then he is religious.

Morning Walk -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

Jayatīrtha: No, "and tolerant." " 'Such MEN,' " capital M-E-N again, "he said, 'are first-class citizens and should be advisors to the world. Second and third-class MEN have not found God and should be administrators and workers.' " Not exactly right. "He spoke thirty minutes and never mentioned women. I asked how women fit into his system. 'Women,' he said, 'is not equal in intelligence to man. Man's brain weighs sixty-four ounces; women's weighs thirty-six ounces. It is just a fact.' He continued, 'Women are meant to assist men. That is all.' He said women do not figure in his class system except as daughters or wives. 'An unmarried woman presumably is classless. Is that,' asked a male reporter..."

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is fact. She is prostitute, that's all. If you classify, then she is prostitute. (laughter) That's all. There is no other way.

Room Conversation with City Counselor -- July 10, 1975, Chicago:

City Counselor: Really nothing. The only problem is that there are certain rules and regulations that all the citizens of Evanston must comply with. And that's all that has been asked to be done. Originally, as I expressed, there were some... This property, the temple, is located in an area which is zoned for business. And there were some originally who wished to maintain that...

Prabhupāda: But there are so many churches...

City Counselor: Yes, there are many churches, yes. And I think...

Prabhupāda: So what is the fault if there is a temple?

City Counselor: Well, I think the... Originally, again I say, some of the no..., not I, but some had some objections to any church, any temple...

Prabhupāda: But already there are churches. I have seen so many churches surrounding our temple.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Ravīndra-svarūpa: Is he a better citizen?

Sandy Nixon: And also sociologically or cultu... Can he work better in the community?

Prabhupāda: That you can see practically. They are not drunkards, they are not meat-eaters. From physiological point of view, they are very clean. They will never be attacked with so many diseases. Then they do not eat meat, means that is the most sinful, to kill others for the satisfaction of the tongue. God has given to the human society so many things to eat: nice fruits, nice flowers, nice grains, first-class milk. And from milk, you can prepare hundreds of nutritious foods. But they do not know the art. They are maintaining big, big slaughterhouse and eating meat. No discrimination. That means they are not even civilized. When man is not civilized, he kills one animal and eats because he does not know how to grow food. Just like we have got one farm land, in New Vrindaban.

Room Conversation -- August 21, 1975, Bombay:

Lalitā: "Missionary visa..." (Bengali) Citizenship... (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: What you have said?

Brahmānanda: "It can be continued if I get encouragement by the government."

Prabhupāda: "By allowing these foreign assistant as missionary men." That's all.

Brahmānanda: "As missionaries."

Prabhupāda: "As missionary men." Or "missionaries."

Lalitā: "Missionaries..." (Bengali). So they will see in what way they can best.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Morning Walk -- September 13, 1975, Vrndavana:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He just came from New York. He's from the West... He's a Commonwealth citizen. He's from the West Indies. He says he'll stay in India for the rest of his life.

Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. So you are going to the magistrate? You have calculated?

Saurabha: Ten thousand bags.

Prabhupāda: Ten thousand bags. No, I wanted to construct this building with bricks.

Saurabha: Yes, but we have to make some slabs and some...

Prabhupāda: Slabs? So still you will require ten thousand?

Saurabha: No. If we do with mud, then it will be much less.

Prabhupāda: Not mud. The mortar means sand and cement.

Morning Walk -- October 2, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: That is later on. First of all you do not know; we know. That is the difference. If somebody knows there is government, he is better than the outlaws who don't, doesn't care for the government. He is better position, a good citizen. Who accepts that there is government is good citizen. And one who doesn't care for the government, does whimsically everything, he becomes criminal. And then he is punished. That is the difference.

Morning Walk -- October 25, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...the government accept you as guide, then everything will be all right. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Tell them that "We are not going to take any salary. You simply take our advice, and govern." The modern legislative assembly, they should be composed of first-class brāhmaṇas, no salary. Then the government will be first-class. All of them are after money; therefore they are trying to capture the power. They have no idea, no desire for the well-being of the citizens. (break) ...this tree? Dates?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Called palmetto tree. Palmetto tree. Not fruit-bearing. Not fruit-bearing.

Prabhupāda: (Break)...beyond the sun.

Indian man: Beyond the sun. How would you explain about eclipse which we get?

Prabhupāda: That you ask some astronomer. I am not astronomer. But I understand from Vedic scripture that moon is beyond the sun.

Indian man: 'Cause we have seen that the moon comes between...

Prabhupāda: Yes, eclipse, it is Rahu. It is Rahu between the sun and, sun and moon.

Morning Walk -- November 7, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. (break) ...king. Their constitution, first word is "the king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever is done... Just like we take Kṛṣṇa, apāpa viddham. Kṛṣṇa is never touched with any sinful activities. Apāpa-viddham. Tejiyasam na doṣaya (SB 10.33.29). Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers. (Hindi?) Of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way. Otherwise, if he is taken as ordinary citizen, then he is... What is the meaning of his exalted post?

Morning Walk -- November 30, 1975, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: ...the government will be incompetent, the more the citizens will be exploited. Ultimately the citizens will suffer. Because they will want money and plunder the citizens, they will be disgusted.

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he's... He prefers to be controlled by the laws of nature instead of by Kṛṣṇa. That is his misfortune. He is controlled, but he thinks, "I am free." That is ignorance. Mūḍha. Just like I am the state citizen. I am not free. I must work according to the state laws. But he (thinks), "I shall... I don't care for government." That is my foolishness. You have to care. At home I can say to my wife, "I don't care for government, I don't care for the police." But when there is crime, when the police comes, then he says "Ohh." (pulls a sad face-laughter) He can be very much proud before his wife, "I don't care for anything." But when the police comes, "What can I do?" (Hindi) There is an example that the, what is called, mūrgī? What you call? Toast? No. Host? No. What is called? Mūrgī, mūrgī? Chicken? The male, male?

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 6, 1976, Nellore:

Prabhupāda: Similarly, oneness means no disagreement. That is oneness, cetana. Cetana means I can disagree or agree. Two things are there. That is cetana. So cetana, cetanaś cetanānaṁ. So when God says that "You do it," you must do it. That is agreement. That is oneness. If you refuse, that is ignorance. How can you refuse? Suppose you.... Take the whole family, and the head of the families asks somebody to do something. If he refuses, then that is rebellious condition. In the state the citizen must agree with the government. Cetana. Cetana means he has got both the things. If he likes, he can agree; if he likes, he does not agree.

Morning Walks -- January 22-23, 1976, Mayapura:

Harikeśa: "Third-class citizens."

Prabhupāda: Third class. But they attended my lecture, they purchased my books and they clapped.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh. South Africa...

Prabhupāda: Yes, South Africa. That I... Very much I was astonished that how these...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them?

Prabhupāda: Oh, many of them.

Morning Walk -- February 19, 1976, Mayapura:

Yaśodānandana: I think that some of the comments of Your Divine Grace, some of the purports of the Fourth Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, if they come to the notice of the Indian government, it may give us some... They may seriously consider about banning, because in that one purport you openly criticize how unfortunate the citizens are because they have a woman as the prime minister, and in another purport you openly say that the citizens should keep their, some of their treasury secret, which is against the principle of their income tax.

Prabhupāda: So, I have... There is no support in the śāstra?

Guru-kṛpā: There is support, but according to their idea and their so-called...

Prabhupāda: Then they confront Bhāgavata.

Conversation with News Reporters -- March 25, 1976, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Clear-cut criterion is that we living entity, being part and parcel, we are as good as God. But when we are under the control of the material nature, that is our diseased condition. Same example. Just like you, as a good citizen, you are as good as Indira Gandhi. You are Indian; you have got all the rights. But if you become criminal, you put into the prison. So we are in the.... Conditioned state means no freedom. It is not clear?

Reporter (1): No, sir, I just wanted you to tell me some yardstick from which one could...

Prabhupāda: But because you are suffering, that is the sign of impurity.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1976, Fiji:

Prabhupāda: They're envious. Sinful means that is the cause of their becoming envious. (break) ...law. Religion means the order of God. Simple definition. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Just like law, we keep to the right or left, order of the government. One who obeys this law, he's good citizen. One who disobeys, he's rascal. Similarly, dharma means the order of God. So one who obeys the order of God, he is really religious. One who does not, he's rogue, duṣkṛtina. This is simple. (break).... Christian. Now, what is the order of God? The Ten Commandments. If one abides by the Ten Commandments, he's really Christian. Take Buddhism; if he abides by the order of Lord Buddha, then he's right.

Morning Walk -- June 9, 1976, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That is sinful. As soon as you irresponsible, you are sinful. (break) ...soon as you forget the simple truth that you are servant of God, you are irresponsible. Now your suffering begins. (break) ...kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta). Just like as citizen of your state, you have to abide by the laws of the state. As soon as you disobey, you are irresponsible. That's all. You suffer. Good citizen means who abides by the laws of the state. And as soon as you break it, immediately you are irresponsible and you must be punished.

Room Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Prabhupāda: Everyone's body is temporary, either human body or cat's body, dog's body. But the human body is important because in the human body we have developed consciousness by which we can understand what is God. The cats and dogs, they cannot, they haven't got that developed consciousness. Therefore if we do not use this developed consciousness for understanding God and our relationship with Him, then we are no better than cats and dogs. Cats and dogs cannot be educated about God, but a human being can be educated. That is the distinction between animals and man. But modern education is keeping them in ignorance about God, so they are no better than cats and dogs. And how can you bring peace among cats and dogs? Can you bring in peace calling all the dogs of your city and sit down peacefully? No, that is not possible. So if we keep our citizens like cats and dogs, then how we can expect peace?

Room Conversation with George Gullen, President of Wayne State University -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Hari-śauri: Purport. "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramātmā, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gītā, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says: 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies. The body consists of senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses, just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says, 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is also stated..."

Prabhupāda: Just like pains and pleasure. You know your bodily pains and pleasure, I know my body. But I do not know your bodily pains, neither you know mine. But God knows everyone's pains and pleasures. That is the difference between God and individual soul.

Conversation with Clergymen -- June 15, 1976, Detroit:

Kern: But to make a person ask is not the right kind of society. Shouldn't, if a person be the first-class citizen and therefore independent and therefore seek his own so that he could serve God by his own intelligence and his independence.... There's no virtue to be giving; it's more of a virtue to receive.

Jayādvaita: He's suggesting that because we are requiring that a person come to us for food, that somehow this is interfering with his independence.

Prabhupāda: Where is that independence? With his family he can come and take food. What is wrong there? We say that we should not..., we are not simply supplying food. Anyone who is coming, he is getting spiritual education. Not that it is a free hotel. No. It is not that. We give them spiritual education. You come here, you take your shelter, you take your food and learn how to be first-class man. That is our program. Don't be implicated in sinful activities. Be God conscious and live here with us comfortably, take your food. We have got this nice palace.

Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden -- June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: That means you do not know seriously what is soul. You have simply an idea, but you do not know in detail. Just like they say, the Christians, "God is great." But they do not know who is God and what is the meaning of greatness. That they do not know. They accept this theoretically or religious sentimentally, "God is great." Just like your state says, "In God We Trust." As soon as I inquire what kind of trust and to whom, there is no reply. That means they do not know what is God, what is trust. As a matter of slogan they write, that's all. Even the state heads, and what to speak of the nonsense ordinary citizens. Seriously taking, it is very important question. They should have reply. But they do not know how to reply.

Garden Conversation -- June 23, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: There is no excuse. If you contaminate some disease, you must suffer from that disease. There is no excuse. So kriya(?) karma, you have to enjoy or suffer the result of karma. Karma-bandhana. But when you act for Kṛṣṇa, then you are mukta. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Karma must be there. If you work for Kṛṣṇa, then it is all right, and if you act for your sense gratification, then there is bondage. If you do not take education, if you remain fools and rascals, then you will suffer and create disturbance for others also. Therefore everyone must be educated, good citizens. It is good for him, good for others. (long pause) So you go on reading.

Room Conversation and Reading from Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 1 and 12 -- June 25, 1976, New Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: The purport is that in the Kali-yuga, the government men, they will be all rogues and thieves. So the citizens also follow them. Tan-nethe, śīlācārya. Śīlācārya is their behavior. The politicians, secretaries and big, big officers going to the brothels and drinking wine and enjoying, then what others will not? They will... Go on, second chapter.

Evening Darsana -- July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies. The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hṛṣīkeśa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body.

Interview with Religious Editor Of the Associated Press -- July 16, 1976, New York:

Interviewer: Never voted. You're a citizen however, aren't you, a U.S. citizen?

Prabhupāda: I am permanent resident.

Bali-mardana: Permanent resident.

Prabhupāda: Immigrant.

Radio Interview -- July 27, 1976, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes! Religion means to understand the supreme controller and obey. That's all. Just like good citizen means he understands the government and obeys the laws of government. That's all. Good citizens. What is the difference between bad citizen and good citizen? The bad citizen means he doesn't care for the government—"Ah, I don't care for"—that is bad citizen. That is irreligious. If you are bad citizen, then you are irreligious. If you are good citizen, then you are religious.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm):

Prabhupāda: On the level of Bhagavad-gītā. God is the supreme controller. And we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, a good person is one who is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, we are presenting this all over the world.

Evening Darsan -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, you are independent citizen, but you must be guided by the laws. If you violate the laws, immediately you will be prisoner. The śāstra is like that, law. You have little independence, you can utilize it fully, under the laws. As soon as you violate, you are immediately put into suffering. Because you are a citizen of an independent country, America, doesn't mean that you can do whatever you like. But you do according to the laws of the country.

Room Conversation -- August 10, 1976, Tehran:

Prabhupāda: You may say there is no God, but God is there, you'll be punished. The outlaw they will say, "We don't care for government." You may say so, but government will take action. You cannot avoid it. This is humanity. Good citizenship means one who knows the laws of the state, that is good citizen. If one does not know the laws of the state, he's a fool. He's not a good citizen. One who knows the law, he keeps right and left, he knows this is the order of the government, cars should be driven on the right side or left side. He is good citizen. One who does not know the law of the state, he's not a good citizen. He's a fool, rascal. What to speak of humanity.

Room Conversation -- August 11, 1976, Tehran:

Devotee: The government encourages this spending of money while the citizens are unhappy and cannot be safe in their own city.

Prabhupāda: Yes, you must have such government. Dasyu-dharyogi (?). They will snatch your money by force. You cannot say anything. That is punishment. Godless civilization, that is punishment, that your own government will snatch, by force, take away your hard labor accumulation, by taxes. That is written in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You cannot fight. You will be harassed in so many ways you will become mad. Ācchinna-dāra-draviṇā yāsyanti giri-kānanam. Hopelessly you will leave hearth and home and go to the forest. This godless civilization will be punished like that. That day is coming like that. Nobody will be peaceful. They will be mad. Just like when a man becomes mad, he commits suicide, he blows off his head. This will be done. There will be no rain—this is one punishment—and scarcity of food and heavy taxation by government. They are all mentioned. What more suffering you want? But still they are advancing, scientists.

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: And they are not giving citizenship?

Jayapatākā: Myself? What happened was I applied last September. So now it's nearly one year, so they had sent my application from Māyāpur to Calcutta, Writer's Building. Again back. Again Writer's Building, then to Delhi. Then Delhi sent again back. I went, and I asked the secretary, and I found out that they had sent again back from Delhi, again back to Māyāpur and then re-investigated me. At that time they brought in some local people, and one investigator, he said that "This Jayapatākā Swami, we have heard that he is a very bad person. He beats the people." They said, "No, We never heard such thing." "No, no. We have heard that he is very bad." In this way by negative they are testing. They came and told me that for two hours police is drilling three different people from Navadvīpa and Māyāpur. In this way no one said a bad...

Prabhupāda: No, if you are a famous man, then they'll do.

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: We shall repair.

Jayapatākā: In the letter of the Home Minister where he said that every disciple can stay for two years, possibly if he allowed that in every center, if a minimum of a few people could stay for citizenship that might...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Ordinary, by rotation and three, two or three or four permanent, by citizen, if he allowed to stay...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā: Then that would solve the problem.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That make.

Room Conversation About Mayapura Construction -- August 19, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So that MLA can help us to get some citizenship.

Jayapatākā: With MLA and Tarun Kanti Ghosh...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jayapatākā:...we can use them for pushing because they are personally interested.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation About Blitz News Clipping -- August 21, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: We are trying to elevate the demoralized human society to God consciousness.

Pradyumna: Then, "John Erdman, a U.S. citizen who sails under the label of (sic:) Jayapak Swami and is in charge of the flourishing Māyāpur complex of the Society, recently had discussions with his chums to set up an In God We Trust Party in India also." Then, heading: "Bigger Than Defunct British Empire." "In a recent communication with Gargamuni Swami, alias Gregory M. Scharf, who looks after West Bengal, the chief from headquarters says, "Now we have become more than the British Empire"

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This is your quote.

Prabhupāda: And what is British Empire? British Empire could not occupy the whole world. We are occupying the whole world.

Room Conversation -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Uganda. They got English citizenship. Now they cannot refuse them legally.

Maṇihāra: There's one group, the National Front group, they are trying to stop the citizenship. Because the government they are saying, "Yes, we will make you citizens if you come here, get business." And they are fighting against this.

Prabhupāda: They are refusing citizenship to the children. Children born of Indians in England, naturally they should be citizens. But now they're refused.

Hari-śauri: They're making all of them get six-month visas. That's partly the reason why India is now thinking to impose visa regulations on the British, on British people who come here.

Prabhupāda: Why they are doing that? Why not make world citizen? So much space. Let anyone go anywhere and live as he likes.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So nature's law is there, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). We are not independent. We are dependent under the laws of material nature. So we should properly utilize this human form of life, and government or king means to guide the citizens how to make progress of life. That is the duty of the government. They should be given all chances to make progress. Formerly, all the kings were responsible for the progress of the citizens, progress of life. The same principle should be followed. That is the statement of the śāstra.

Garden Conversation -- September 3, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: If there is war they were not affected. And the soldiers would not bother the public. It is said during Mohammedan period the soldiers of one party will ask the cultivator, "Where the other soldiers gone?" They would say, "I have seen and they have gone this side." The cultivator is going on. The fighting is going on, but the cultivator is not affected. He is free. "You fight between themselves and whoever the victor is, I shall pay taxes. That's all. I have nothing to do with politics." This was... Between two parties of king or political, they may fight. Citizens, they have nothing to do who is the victorious. "You fight and one of you will become victorious. So you take taxes. I am concerned with paying tax. And tax, tax means whatever I have grown, you take one-fourth. You see this I have grown. Now you can take away one-fourth." No income tax, no sale tax, no this tax or that tax. And if some year, by chance, he has not grown anything—no tax. "I have not produced, I could not produce anything." Very simple. Soldiers, they were not paid. They were given land by the king. "You enjoy this land without any price. But when there is fight you have to come out." Fight is not going every day. It may take place after some years. So they are living peacefully.

Room Conversation -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: If you become Indian citizen then.

Akṣayānanda: If you have three children in your family then by law you must have it.

Prabhupāda: So you have no children. "So let me produce first of all three children."

Room Conversation -- September 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Hari-śauri: They can only do that to their own citizens. They can only do that to Indian citizens.

Prabhupāda: Foreigners...

Akṣayānanda: So if I become Indian national, if I learn Hindi and become Indian national then they will approach me?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter)

Room Conversation -- September 17, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Third-class, fourth-class men, dressed like President and king. Business: plunder money from the citizens and kill cow. 1965, 17 September, I landed at Boston.

Hari-śauri: You've done a lot of things since then.

Devotee: Changed the world.

Prabhupāda: Much water has gone down.

Room Conversation -- September 30, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: I took Canadian citizenship. America I could not get. So one gentleman in the immigration department, he said, "Swamiji, you go to Canada and from there you try. It will be easier." Actually, it acted. The Canadian consulate general was a black man, American black man. So in the consulate I applied for immigration, and he was sympathetic. He saw my Teachings of Lord Caitanya and he became attracted. So he settled up. "This gentleman must be allowed." So he expedited the matter within three months. And then I became immigrant in the U.S.A. Then again I came back in Los Angeles, and then we took that house, La Cienega.

Room Conversation on New York court case -- November 2, 1976, Vrindaban:

Prabhupāda: No. That is his insincerity.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Frankly Śrīla Prabhupāda, no member of parliament will give it either. I know because even when Tejas was applying for his citizenship, Krishna Modi would not even give a letter of recommendation because he said this is a Congress Party policy.

Prabhupāda: Then what can be done. Everything is nasty.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So this is what we'll do. We'll be starting a...

Prabhupāda: You can give the names. There are so many members.

Room Conversation with Dr. Theodore Kneupper -- November 6, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Religion means to understand God and to follow God's order. That is religion. Just like government and government law. So if the citizen understands what is the law of the government and abides by it, then he's a good citizen. Similarly, any person who understands God and abides by the order of God, then he is religious. Why do you stand? You may be Christian; I may be Hindu; he may be Mohammedan. It doesn't matter. Everyone should understand God and the relationship with God and act accordingly. Then it is perfect religion. And if there is no conception of God, no carrying out order of the God, that is not religion. That is cheating. But generally they do not accept God—still, he is stamping himself that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian." He has no idea what is God, how to abide by His order, and they are fighting that "I am Christian and you are Hindu. Therefore we must fight." This is going on. Nobody understands what is God. Pseudo religion. Practically there is no religion. If there is no government—you make your law; I make my law—then how there will be peace? That is the position. They do not understand what is God, and "I am Christian" or "Hindu" or "Mohammedan, so let us fight." That's all.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Guest (6) (Indian man): What is the meaning of good citizen? Good citizen?

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is spiritual vision. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, and if you remain Kṛṣṇa conscious, then spiritual vision. That is spiritual.

Guest (6): Swamiji, you have seen Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: What do you think? We are all rascals, blindly following? Do you think like that? Then why I have not seen? Why do you ask this? If we are acting for Kṛṣṇa, do you mean to say that we are following blindly? Do you think like that? What is your opinion? If we have not seen Kṛṣṇa, then how we are acting for Kṛṣṇa? Hm? What is your idea? We are all fools, that without seeing the master we are acting? Do you think like that? Why don't you answer? This is foolish question. How one can serve a master without seeing the master? Is it a fact that without seeing the master one is serving? Find out this verse, sarvatra yo māṁ paśyati, mayi ca sarvaṁ paśyati, like that.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Basic principle is that it is made by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now there are books, how to carry out the order. And the ultimate understanding, how to become faithful to the (indistinct). Just like good citizen means faithful to the government. Unfortunately these rascals, they do not have any idea, the supreme controller, supreme government. They say anything automatically.

Dr. Patel: Vaiṣṇava is a good citizen of the government of God. That is Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is dharma. And Kṛṣṇa teaches that dharma. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). Who will surrender unless he's a Vaiṣṇava?

Pālikā: Śrīla Prabhupāda? This morning you would like to take your breakfast after the program or after resting? Because I do not want to prepare the idli...

Prabhupāda: Later. All other dharmas are cheating.

Letter to Russian -- January 5, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. If the men are kept as animals, you cannot expect them peaceful citizens. That is not possible. The fighting will go on on one plea or another. You cannot stop. (pause) Was it...? You give...? Pālikā?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Mahārāja got the income tax today. The income tax also... And our auditor... Their interpretation of the law is so rigid, Śrīla Prabhupāda. We have to say so many lies. For example...

Prabhupāda: That you may not bother about, for...

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No.

Prabhupāda: So you can make idli? What is called? Is it called?

Pālikā: Tonight?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 8, 1977, Bombay:

Pradyumna: "It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which combined together can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes? Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The king at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity, and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to a so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less-than-animal-man."

Prabhupāda: That's all (laughing) we have said. You can do one thing. You have got nim tree?

Devotee: Yes.

Conversation During Massage -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: But it helps all the citizens if the devotees are ruling the kingdom.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That is wanted. Therefore, if we become strong, we shall take over charge of government. It is not that we are entering into politics. We must! That is also one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are misguided. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasaḥ. They are being induced to remain in ignorance. Therefore we want, make our plan. Śoce: "I am thinking very seriously how to save them." Prahlāda Mahārāja says. That is Vaiṣṇava's business. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhi. "They are suffering." That is Vaiṣṇava, real Vaiṣṇava, not that "Now I am realized soul, sit down and..." That is also good, but better business is to think for others. That is stated in the Bhāgavatam. Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣu... (Bg 18.68), na ca tasmād. If you want to be really very dear to Kṛṣṇa, you must preach this philosophy vigorously, not that "I have got it. Who is going to take so much botheration? Let me sit down." Kṛṣṇa... Who can be better devotee than Arjuna? And why did he... He was, rather, avoiding the botheration. Kṛṣṇa said, "No. You must take the botheration." He chastised him, kutas tva kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame. "Rascal, what is this? You must take. You have to take this botheration." On this principle, at the age of seventy years, I took all the botheration—"All right." The other friends were thinking that "This man is going to die, and he is going to preach." (laughing) They said like that. And "All right. I shall die, I shall die for Kṛṣṇa's cause." So we have to face so many problems, botherations. That is natural. We should not be afraid of this.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: That may be. The thing is: the real citizenship is to abide by the law of the government. That is the principle. But even if you say that government of India is different from..., the principle is the same. Government means to rule over. Rule over.

Guest (7): I may not have expressed myself correctly. What I meant was...

Prabhupāda: No, no, government means who is controlling the activities of the citizens. That's all. That is everywhere the same. There may be little difference in the formula, but the principle is the same, that there is a controller and citizens following that controlling rules. Then it is good government. So similarly, the supreme government—there is God, and He has His rules and regulations—if you follow, then you are religious. And God cannot be two. God is one. Otherwise how He is God? If God has competition, then He's not God.

Morning Walk -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Then that is not leadership. That is misleader. These are very intelligent questions, nice. King means he has to see that the citizens are doing nicely, and that is king's duty.

Bhāgavata: The king is like a father.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated. Lord Rāmacandra treated His subjects as sons and they also treated Lord Rāmacandra as father. That is the relationship between the citizens and the king-father and son.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: What is that job?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: My job, my work, chemist, the instrument I work. Saying that... Must be written to the Federal Government, to the Labor Department, saying that there's nobody who would be able to do my job in the United States, qualified. Then the second condition is that by being employed myself, then nobody will be displaced. Any U.S. citizen will not be displaced by my employment. So those two conditions. And it has to be written by the university sponsor.

Prabhupāda: So very difficult, that.

Morning Walk -- January 31, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Actually one who is serious going back to home, back to Godhead—for such person, one should be niṣkiñcana, no connection with these material woman and money. Niṣkiñcanasya. (break) But I am not collecting money for sense gratification. For preaching work. Kṛṣṇa-sambandhe... Kṛṣṇa sabaya yāhā haya anukula, viṣaya boliyā tāhā haya phul.(?) The anything which is favorable to my preaching work, that is not viṣaya. Ta phul.(?) Then that is mistake. Why the air is misty? That... (break) Similarly, you can kill. You have to see it, what for they are killing. Stalin was killing for his own sense gratification. He wanted to maintain himself in the position, and anyone going against him, he would kill. That was not for the citizens' benefit. For his own benefit.

Morning Walk -- February 2, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: They cannot know anything. But they got this human form of life, and still, they are acting as rascal. Therefore vimūḍhān, "specially rascal." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Such a rascal. (break) ...where charity is given, to be given, give him. That's all. Dātavyam. (break) "...by the people, for the people." And what is the people condition? They are naked. They have no good house, no food. And these men, they must have very good bungalow, very good, comfortable life. This is Kali-yuga, means "Plunder the citizens, take money from them, and live comfortably at the cost of the poor citizens."

Gargamuni: Most of these bungalows here are offices. Government offices.

Prabhupāda: That I said. They are living very comfortably, and the citizens... We have seen the other day, Cuttack, the marwan (?) shop, congested.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.

Conversation on Roof -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And what is the law of government? The law of government is to give the citizen best life. So similarly, if we are trying to give them best life, why we should be checked? We are asking them, "No meat-eating, no gambling," so is that bad instruction?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By their definition it may be.

Prabhupāda: That is... Your criminal law will also criticize that "Why you are giving this instruction?" The two parties must be there, duality. If I accuse you of some criminality, you'll say, "Why you are checking my freedom?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because they have forgotten God, they no longer understand what is best for themselves.

Prabhupāda: They are like animals.

Conversation on Roof -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Brahmānanda: They were trying to decide what to call the name of this group, something like "Concerned Citizens for the Protection of Hare Kṛṣṇa Devotees," something like that. So some of our own...

Prabhupāda: No, no. "To protect the Human Rights." Keep this name. What is human right? That we can explain. The human right is: here is an opportunity to understand God. So this society is giving that knowledge. If you don't give the human being the right of understanding God, then he's animal. You keep him as animal.

Room Conversations -- February 20, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, he's God-believing. This statement that he makes at the end, this statement that "Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens." "Eternally needed right." Freedom of religion.

Prabhupāda: So we should send him a letter of congratulations. "May God bless you for such right judgment. Be... Live long life to serve God." Like that, make a nice... That is our mission.

Room Conversation -- March 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now this Janata party headed by Morarji may take to this Indian culture, that will be the...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We were thinking, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that after a short time we should have a committee approach Mr. Desai, some of our devotees and prominent life members, for getting citizenship for at least fifty to a hundred of our men. He would be favorable.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and Cheating' -- April 15, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Therefore how can the citizens be honest?

Prabhupāda: Why Indira Gandhi is condemned? She was cheating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Nixon too.

Prabhupāda: Everyone. And what is guarantee they will not do, this present government?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So force in this age is finished as means a for influencing honesty. Force will not work, because the leaders are dishonest. Then we have to teach the principle of love.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Conversation -- April 19, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His citizenship, yeah. By birth he's Indian, but by citizenship he's Canadian.

Prabhupāda: So by Indian birth, that is all right. Citizenship, I am also Canadian. I have got Canadian immigration. First of all I took Canada immigration. Then, from there, I took U.S. immigration. So make a subcommittee immediately. Make resolution. Ācchā. What about the Canadian, Australian, English men? They also require the same?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: There is no excepting an Englishman. So anyway, you make these four men, subcommittee, and you take whatever land is given, given up to Kṛṣṇa. Then pick up selected persons from each family and make a strong body. And then we organize Burma and Bangladesh. And he's going to Ceylon. Formerly India, Burma, Ceylon, they were one. And somebody's going to Pakistan. So there is chance of uniting all these different parts of India by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You have to organize. At least you organize here, Manipur center, Burma, and Bangladesh, and Assam. It will be successful.

Morning Conversation -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything is reasonable. But so were your reasons. Just like when you met with the reporter from Los Angeles Times, I remember last year... When this question comes up they, inside they are laughing. When they hear our opinion they think it is a joke. They cannot conceive that the whole thing could be a hoax. We were discussing that actually, that the nation is more dear to most people than their family is, because one will get divorced from his family, but who will give up citizenship? Very rarely does anyone give up his citizenship. But people divorce again and again. So to... The nation is something very strong, that affection, and nation, in America, means this moon shot, all of these things, the truthfulness of the leaders. So this is too shocking. Probably the American people could not swallow it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) Lie.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Why no other newspaper carried the story?

Prabhupāda: It is only because I disbelieved, he disagreed. (referring to Puruṣottama?) He disagreed with me from that moment. He thought me foolish that I do not believe scientific research.

Morning Conversation -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Thirty billion. And I think also it keeps the people loyal to their... It's the same idea. If you're the best, then the people automatically follow you. "If we're the best nation, then all of our citizens will follow us, respect us, loyal to the nation because the nation is the best in the world."

Prabhupāda: That is admitted by others. Therefore the Britishers, they took shelter of the Americans when they were defeated in Europe. And the Americans, they have got a special leaning towards British. Mostly they came from British Isles. For colonization, Britishers are most forward.

Morning Conversation -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're like animals. You never know what they will do. We were again reading about rāma-rājya, and Lord Rāma decided to go out and to hear what the citizens were saying. So in one home He heard that there was some doubt. Sītādevī was pregnant. There was some doubt about it. Immediately He decided that She had to be sent away. So exemplary, His character. It's described how He was distributing. He distributed everything He had, and He had nothing but the clothes left, and Sītā had nothing but Her nose ring. And the brāhmaṇas were so overwhelmed that they could understand that He was the Supreme Personality of Godhead and yet He was such an ideal king that they gave Him everything back. So there is no such dealings like this nowadays between the government and the citizens. Rather, they elect some leader and then they rebel and try to kill the leader. Just like in Pakistan. Now they're trying to kill this Bhutto.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā? There was attempt to kill?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I mean they'd like to somehow rid themselves of him.

Prabhupāda: Pakistan is spoiled now.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any chance of uniting with India again, Pakistan?

Prabhupāda: They will.

Evening Darsana -- May 14, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: You cannot count how many there are. Now these, some of the jīvas, not all of them... Majority of them, they live in the spiritual world, just like majority of the population of the state, they live outside the prison house. Prison house means some of the citizens who are criminals, they are put into the jail.

Conversation with M.P., Shri Sita Ram Singh -- May 19, 1977, Vrndavana:

Indian man (3): No, but is there any facility for getting Indian citizenship?

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We don't want citizenship. What they will do with citizen..., Indian citi...?

Indian man (3): Then what is the difficulty?

Prabhupāda: Difficulty is... Let them live here as permanent residents, just like I am American permanent resident. I am not citizen. If I like, I can become citizen. But what is the use of becoming citizen? It is as good as citizen. (Hindi)

Sita Ram Singh: Within that period they have to go back.

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Sita Ram Singh: Yes, of course, they have to go back, but...

Prabhupāda: No, extension... (Hindi) Generally.

Conversation Pieces -- May 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Yaśomatīnandana: Local citizens?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Local citizens.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hindus, I do... The trustees appoint. And when trustees are going to retire, he should nominate his own person.

Jayatīrtha: We've included that in the closure of the will.

Jayapatākā: So the trustees should be managing on behalf of ISKCON.

Prabhupāda: So after making finally, we consult with that Mr. Sharma. He'll make some clarification. Gargamuni knows. He'll make it final.

Morning Conversation -- June 23, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember in the Rādhā-Govinda Temple in Jaipur, oh, the monkeys, they lived there as regular citizens practically. And they're very friendly there. They come up and they hold their hand out.

Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa was giving the monkeys. Monkeys were pet, not as enemy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kṛṣṇa treated the monkeys as a pet?

Prabhupāda: Friends.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Friends.

Prabhupāda: He was giving butter. In the forest playing with them.

Morning Conversation -- June 23, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes, they know. And besides that, they did not exploit. Whatever enjoyment they did—within India, not that taking away the money outside India. Therefore it was very good relationship. And Indian people, they do not mind who is king. "We pay our tax. That's all." That is the attitude from the very beginning. The general people, they did not mind whether Kurus or war(?) will reign over or the Pāṇḍavas. "We don't mind. You become fight. You become king. We give our tax. That's all." So there was no fight with the subject between king and citizens. This democracy is a demon-crazy. It has no value. It is simply waste of time and effort and no feeling, demon-crazy. I do not know who introduced this. In India still there is no demon-crazy. Indian king always. Everyone is taking part in politics. What is this nonsense? It is meant for the kṣatriyas. They can fight and defend. The rascals, bhangis, chamars, and they are also in politics. Harijanas... Every one of them vote, and everyone has got the right to become king, minister. Not this. The real thing they are missing, the mode of life, the aim of life. (break)...care. Everyone is theorizing, everyone is educated, and everyone is, they're hippie. That's all.

Conversation with Surendra Kumar and O.B.L. Kapoor -- June 26, 1977, Vrndavana:

Surendra Kumar: "...to get Indian citizenship because they are doing this work. They will be doing this work. And their long-time stay, permanent stay in India, will be beneficial for the great work that you have started."

Prabhupāda: And actually, because they are helping me, I have been able...

Surendra Kumar: They have been giving you help.

Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, these Europeans...

Surendra Kumar: Yes, yes, I know, disciples, they are...

Prabhupāda: Otherwise how could I do?

Room Conversation -- July 19, 1977, Vrndavana:

Yaśomatīnandana: One thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja was saying yesterday, that if we apply to the Home Ministry, we should not apply for citizenship because why should we lose the citizenship of the better countries? But then there is no such arrangement as permanent residency in the government.

Prabhupāda: Then citizenship.

Yaśomatīnandana: At least for a few managers.

Prabhupāda: I don't think you have to give up your American citizenship.

Meeting With Governor of Tamil Nadu -- July 31, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But you can consider our situation, that such big, big establishment and Deity... Here is a big establishment. In Māyāpur there is Deity also. They are trained up. They are helping me. So kindly... At least we have submitted some list. So give them either permanent residence or citizenship. In America I have got permanent residency, so why not here? If there is no such arrangement, give them citizenship. They have nothing...

Governor: I am meeting the Home Minister tomorrow also. I will also talk to him, Charan Singh. The meeting is. He's mainly going.

Prabhupāda: Because every year I am losing five to six lakhs of rupees for their going, again coming. Just like he's acting my secretary. Now his visa is finished. He has to go, and again he has to come back. And that means ten thousand, more than ten thousand.

Room Conversations Bangladesh Preaching/Prabhavisnu Articles by Hamsaduta -- August 11, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "...to survive to procreate more and more misfits as future citizens."

Prabhupāda: No, what social welfare you have done? You have opened so many hospitals, but does it mean you can give life?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a real... Here's what he says. He says, "Advancement in medical science and social welfare..."

Prabhupāda: What is the advancement?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's going to explain it. "...and social welfare services are helping more and more misfits to survive to procreate more and more misfits as future citizens. While the short-term goal is achieved, the long-term goal is jeopardized. Future governments are not going to allow all the misfits to procreate misfit children on the ground that life originates from the Supreme Soul. It is the unique ability of man to engage in creative thinking that has made him succeed in his fight against the laws of nature."

Prabhupāda: What you have gained? Your father died. Your mother died. You are a great scientist. Why you cannot save them? What is the value of your education? Simply empty voice. You'll also die. Can you make provision that you'll not die?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Future," they'll say.

Prabhupāda: That is empty voice.

Room Conversation -- October 27, 1977, Vrndavana:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I also spoke to the Chinese Embassy in Delhi yesterday. I said I'd like to go to China, and I wanted to find out what the possibilities were. So they said since I have Canadian citizenship, they said I should write to the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa. I told them I'm from a publishing house that publishes books on ancient Indian culture. And I found out that they do not teach any Sanskrit in China, but they have Hindi and Urdu departments. Peking University has a Department on Asian studies that teaches Hindi and Urdu.

Prabhupāda: Let us introduce in Hindi.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Hindi books. And actually that man I spoke to on the phone, he spoke such fluent Hindi I had to ask him three times if he's Chinese or Indian. He was Chinese.

Prabhupāda: No, in Calcutta we have got many Chinese. They speak fluently.