Prabhupāda: So everyone has got a particular type of profession. The potter, the washerman, and the florist, the grain dealer, the silver or gold dealer, the banker, and... Everything. And the priest, and the warrior. So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a class, kṣatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to Burma, to Messopotamia. They liquidated the Empire because they lost India. The British soldiers were not helping to keep up their Empire. These Indians soldiers. In the first war they gained for these Indian soldiers. They fought in France and everywhere very nicely. They are fighter class. They like to fight. And fighting is not going every day. So the arrangement was... Just like you have to fight for the state. So there is no monthly salary system. You are awarded by the government a certain tract of land free. You produce grains and utilize the land; no tax for you. But when there will be war, you shall fight. Very nice arrangement. Similarly, in temple, the florist has to supply flowers daily.
British (Conversations 1968 - 1973)
Expressions researched:
"britain"
|"british"
|"britisher"
|"britisher's"
|"britishers"
|"brittanic"
|"brittanica"
|"brittanicas"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Kīrtanānanda: Not exactly brāhmaṇas. They were proprietors of large tracts of land, and they were responsible for giving protection to a certain number of people under them.
Prabhupāda: Aristocrats. The same system the Britishers introduced in India also. They were called zamindari. (break) That is sannyāsī's business.
Hayagrīva: I see somebody's going to get stuck with a lot of traveling tickets.
Prabhupāda: That Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter. You see?
Hayagrīva: So I want to make certain that this is your...
Prabhupāda: Sometimes I think that "I came here with no money, and now I am spending so much money in traveling." (laughter) Aeroplanes. As soon as I get on aeroplane, immediately two hundred dollars. And not only I am, my assistant also. So Kṛṣṇa will provide. That doesn't matter.
Satsvarūpa: But still... I've already done that. I've made him, but practically I'm still managing anyway. And I made Murāri manager, but still I'm... I don't spend much time in editing. People are always coming, and I'm running all over the place. I don't edit at all. It makes me sad. I don't...
Prabhupāda: No, no. They must give relief to you. You can give them instruction, but the actual execution should be done... Pradyumna is there. He can also do. But anyone who is expert in management, he should be... Temple management should not be done directly by you. You can give him policy that "You do like this." That's all. Because you have got so many other things to do. Yes. So you create. If there is no expert manager, you create some manager. That is most important thing, to create. To become... (laughs) In our college there was one Mr. Kidd, professor of economics. He was always chastising us. We were student; he was our professor. "Oh, you cannot have independence. You cannot manage it. You cannot manage. You can work just like ass, but if some asses are given under you, you cannot work." He was talking like that. "So don't cry for independence. You are not yet nation." He was talking like that. So actually his experience was nice, that since the Britishers have gone away, the management of Indian government is not nice. They cannot manage. So he was experienced. He told. I sometimes remember that Professor Kidd told me like that. (laughs) So we have to create nice administrator. That is another function, you see? Every department, we shall create assistant, assistant. So that in case he is ill or he is sick, he cannot work, somebody must work for him.
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (4): ...national, just like the national...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have to organize. First of all let us publish in one city, big city like New York, like London, yes, Bombay, Tokyo. Big cities, world's big cities. In India only two cities are big: Calcutta, and Bombay, important. If you publish simultaneously, Calcutta... Delhi is given importance due to capital; otherwise not important as big city, as Bombay and Calcutta. Delhi, without government offices it is a dead city. Just like Washington. What is the value of Washington? It is nothing. Simply because it is headquarters of the President, it has got importance. Similarly, Delhi is that. Otherwise it is not important. But Calcutta, Bombay, is really important city in India, big business, port, all rich men, every kind of, all cultural, everything—Calcutta, and Bombay. Originally only Calcutta, now Bombay also. Because the Britishers, they made Calcutta capital. And Calcutta was very, very important city. But these Calcutta men, they create sometimes situation, very complicated. So once in 1905 the same situation was there, politically. Sir Surendranath Bannerjee made, Surendranath Bannerjee's movement, partition of Bengal. Lord Collier, he wanted to divide Bengal, made it East Bengal and West Bengal. And Surendranath Bannerjee... He is the practically father of Indian politics. Gandhi's not. He was. He was. And in the beginning, in European circles he was famous. He was called "Surrender-not." The spelling of the name, s-u-r-e-n-d-e-r, Surendranath. In Parliament he was known as "Surrender-not." He was a very powerful politician. So there was trouble in Calcutta; so therefore they transferred, 1911, capital to Delhi. Otherwise, from the very beginning of British occupation Calcutta was the capital. You have seen the government viceroy's house near that Hamilton building where you were trying to purchase.
Haṁsadūta: King of India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his policy. He favored that policy, that Indian people are in favor of monarchy. So introduce this system: one of the royal family's son should come and become king of India. That was good suggestion. If Britishers would have ruled India for the interest of India, making one king from the royal family, it would have been great success. That policy of Lord Collier was very nice.
Haṁsadūta: That never happened.
Prabhupāda: The same thing. The parliamentary members... Just like nowadays, party. India is suffering in party politics. And they did not like to give importance to monarchy. They wanted to rule according to their whims, and therefore the whole scheme failed. The so-called democracy under party politics is nonsense. Monarchy... I have said. That day I was in remarking that "This democracy is the government of the asses," because the population are asses and they vote another ass to be head of the government. So what you can do? Sayuddhe kriyate rājan sa kim asnu pahanam. These are instructions in Sanskrit. "If you make a dog a king, don't you think that he will still lap the shoes?" You cannot change his habits. Sva... Yasya bhāvasya na sa sudurate kramaḥ. Anyone's habits, even if you give good position, you cannot change it. The example is just like if you make a dog the king, he will immediately come from the throne and bite the shoes. You see? So materially you cannot change.
Prabhupāda: What is the value of vote by asses? According to Vedic civilization, there was democracy but that democracy is selected committee. Just like in England there was Privy Council. So selected body of learned brāhmaṇas and sages, they were guiding the king, and the king himself was properly educated how to rule over, under religious principles. He was trained from the beginning of his life as prince. As the future heir of the throne, he was trained, and at the same time, he was guided by a council of learned sages and brāhmaṇas. They were looking over the activities of the king. As soon as there was some mistake they will see. And there are instances; whenever there was a bad king they were dethroned. Not for political purpose. He was dethroned but his son was on the... Just like Lord Rāmacandra did. Rāmacandra killed Rāvaṇa but He never occupied the kingdom. His brother Vibhīṣaṇa proved to be faithful. He was enthroned. From the same family. And that was the system. Even a king was wrong, he would be dethroned but from his family, either his son or brother, or somebody would occupy there. Not that "Because I have conquered you, therefore I shall sit down." No. There are many instances. And therefore India was ruling all over the world. The emperor was in India, and the kings of different states, their family was. So there was no rebellion. And in every state a king was trained in the same process, guided by committee of learned brāhmaṇa and sages. How perfect this monarchy is. Monarchy... That Lord Collier studied that the Indian people like monarchy. Even these states, the so-called states... Now the Congress government has killed them; otherwise the Britishers were maintaining, necessary, and they were developed. Now see. The Indore was far better before. You can see from the buildings, from the whole city. It was very prosperous city. Still it is going on. So every state, the native prince, the Britishers maintained so many native prince. And because they maintained them, they were friends to the Britishers. They knew the policy, if you create zamindar, landlord. They created this aristocratic class to support them. So when Gandhi and other leaders started this movement all the princes and zamindars, they were in favor of British. Therefore it took so much time to transfer. And as a retaliation, the common people have bereft them of their kingdom. "No more kingdom because you always supported Britishers." It is a great politics. Therfore they have taken... The zamindars, immediately after this attainment of independence, all the zamindars and kings were bereft of their possessions. You were in Calcutta? Oh, none of you were with me.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prof. Kotovsky: But... I am sorry to interrupt you, but originally, to my knowledge, original Indian society, when, in the second half of Indian society, when in Calcutta by order of British administration was codified, so-called, you know, remember, "Jantu Law," they called, a big digest of Hindu law, there was a lot of change...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...called in.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they manufactured another...
Prof. Kotovsky: And this, the actual Hindu law which was used by Hindus, they're quite different from original Manu-smṛti.
Prabhupāda: No, they have now made changes. Just like our late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. He made some Hindu code. He introduced in that Hindu code the right of divorcing husband and wife. But these were not in Manu-saṁhitā. And, of course, they are changing. If you like, you can change. But the social order also not exactly the same as it was before.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yeah, because every..., there are some kind of people in some administrative departments who...
Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...are both masters(?) and ex-British officers.
Prabhupāda: ... the difficulty, that India is nowhere. They are trying to imitate, Westernize, but they are hundred years back. From materialistic point of view, technological point of view, they are hundred years back.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, that's right, but what to do for India?
Prabhupāda: No. That not...
Prof. Kotovsky: To improve the condition of life, to be Westernized is the major problem.
Prabhupāda: That... But there is one thing that I am experiencing. India's the spiritual asset, if that is distributed, that will increase India's (indistinct). That is my... Because everywhere I go, still people adore India's spiritual culture. They are after India. And if they are properly distributed, the treasurehouse of Indian spiritual knowledge, then at least people outside India, they'll think that "We are getting something from India."
Prabhupāda: So give one man from each center. It doesn't require that he is very advanced. Advancement will be done by training, by practical application in life. If you send from each center one man to India... If you can send more, that's all right. But at least one man. In India we have got many things to do. Because the business in India is important in this respect, that partly due to their subjugation by foreigners, their original culture has been killed. Just like in India, they did not know drinking tea, drinking wine, meat-eating, illicit sex. They did not know. Even fifty, a hundred years before, they did not know. These Britishers, in order to control them, very silently introduced all these things. I know in our childhood, this drinking of tea was unknown to any family. Meat-eating, there was no question. Just like in my life, I do not know what is meat-eating, do not know womanizing(?) or illicit sex life, because we are trained in that way. So due to foreign domination, they were killed; and after independence, these rascal leaders, they are killing it: "What is the wrong in meat-eating? What is the wrong in drinking?" They are canvassing: "Eat chickens, eat eggs,." This is going on. So at the present moment there is great propaganda from the side of the government and others to kill India's original culture. So when Americans go there and preach and they see, "Oh, so nice Vaiṣṇava, so nice devotee and so pure," they will become attracted, because that is their original culture. At heart they want to do that, but by artificial means they are being forced to accept something else. So when they see these foreigners and Americans so... And government is not very favorable of my movement there, because it is natural when the Americans exhibit a nice, pure Vaiṣṇava, they come attracted. Just like Calcutta and Bombay, what was there? The same Deity was and saṅkīrtana was there and I was speaking say for a half an hour. But why these forty thousand, thirty thousand people were coming? They were coming to see, "Oh, how Americans have taken to this philosophy(?)." That is their surprise.
Woman Interviewer: Thank you. So presumably you would encourage this movement of more people to find a spiritual life. You...
Prabhupāda: Yes, unless you take to this movement, you cannot be happy. That's a fact. Therefore we invite everyone to study, to understand this great movement.
Woman Interviewer: What worries me slightly is that since the arrival in Britain some while ago of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a lot of... He was the first guru that most people ever heard of, and since then there have been a lot of people and a lot of gurus that have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. And one gets the feeling that sometimes they're not all as genuine as they ought to be, and I wondered whether you feel that it's right that you could perhaps issue a warning to people who are seeking some new spiritual life that they should take care to make sure they have a genuine guru to teach them.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Woman Interviewer: Do you feel there's a danger?
Prabhupāda: Of course, to search out guru is very nice. But if you want a cheap guru or if you want to be cheated, then there will be many cheater gurus. But if you are sincere, then you'll have sincere guru. People want to be cheated because they want everything very cheap. But just like we are asking people no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. So people think it is very difficult, it is botheration. And if somebody says, "No, you do. Whatever nonsense you like do. You simply take my mantra," they will like it. So the thing is that they want to be cheated; therefore cheaters come. They don't want to undergo some austerity. Human life is meant for austerity. But they are not prepared to undergo austerity. Suppose some cheaters come. They say, "Oh, no austerity. Whatever you like you do. You simply pay me and I'll give you some particular mantra, and you become God within six months." (Laughter) And that is going on. So you want to be, if people want to be cheated like that, the cheaters will come.
Guest (2): Can I ask about your rate... about growth? How, can ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand.
Guest (2): I'm talking about in Britain.
Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins.
Guest (2): Can you tell me how many of those actually stay?
Haṁsadūta: Oh, 99% stay.
Guest (2): And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week, ten a week?
Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistics, but actually the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.
Prabhupāda: Where is that?
Śyāmasundara: Just down the street.
Prabhupāda: He takes them.
Journalist (1): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir?
Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone?
Journalist (1): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about...
Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, kata caturānana, māri māri yāvatā.(?) There are so many Brahmās come also and they died. So this kind of empirical imperial, onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were...Just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay.
Prabhupāda: I may make analogy or not analogy but the thing is that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there but it is covered. As soon as its covering is taken away, it is uncovered, the original position comes out.
Śyāmasundara: I believe he made one observation which is rather in the British tradition, I believe, where he said that if there was no observer then there would be no such thing as light and darkness.
Dr. Weir: Yes, light and dark are subjective reactions. Really, the scientists would say there are wave lengths of a certain type in one part of the universe and in the other they're absent. But, until you have an observer you can't notice that.
Mensa Member: But the planet would still be there (indistinct).
Dr. Weir: (indistinct) Samuel Johnson quite rightly refuting that by taking (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Actually there is no darkness. Take it sunlight, it is whole. There is no darkness and everything is in sunshine, all the planets, they are rotating in sunshine. So under certain conditions one part is becoming dark, another part is light. But actually the whole universe is full with sunshine. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. That is the exact definition given in Sanskrit. Everything is light, brahma.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Only satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa is right. All wrong. If Kṛṣṇa is satisfied, that is right. Otherwise everything wrong.
Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yadubara: A man in Surat brought up the question of the British in India, and he felt they should be thrown out.
Prabhupāda: Surat?
Devotee: In Surat.
Prabhupāda: Surat, what happened? One man questioned?
Devotee: A man in Surat brought up the question of whether the British should be removed from India.
Prabhupāda: British? I do not understand. What is his real question?
Śyāmasundara: Should the British have been violently thrown out of India?
Yadubara: But if somebody is stepping on you, then you should take action to remove those people.
Devotee: Whether the British should have been forcibly removed from India.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is ordinary duty. If you encroach upon my freedom, I have the right to kill you. That is recommended. That is clearly stated in the śāstras. If anyone sets fire in another's house, if anyone kidnaps his wife, if anyone takes his money—so many list—he is to be killed. There is no question. He can be killed immediately. That action-reaction is going on in the material world, that is a different thing. That is karma-bandha. But in devotion, there is no karma-bandha. As Kṛṣṇa is free from all reaction, similarly Kṛṣṇa's devotee who wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only, he is also free from all reaction. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāva-manyeta karhicit (SB 11.17.27). "The ācārya is as good as I am," Kṛṣṇa says. Nāva-manyeta karhicit, "Never neglect him." Na martya-buddhyāsūyeta, "Never be envious of the ācārya, thinking him as anything of this material world." Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān (SB 11.17.27). Therefore, ācārya's position is as good as Kṛṣṇa. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair **. Ācārya is always cautious that he may not be subject to criticism. But who criticizes ācārya, he becomes immediately offender. Because he is playing the part of ācārya, he plays as far as possible. But sometimes for preaching work, he might have to do something which is not consistent.
Prabhupāda: Our authorities, they accept Mandakara(?) is not as good as Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Śaṅkarācārya. We... Nobody can give credit to Mandakara more than these ācāryas or Caitanya. So how his proposition can be accepted?
Dr. Kapoor: So he was knighted, you see, by the British government.
Prabhupāda: Yes, just see. (guest laughs) Just like Nehru bribed one Mukerjee, Rādhā-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, doctor, to write book where he has supported cow slaughter.
Dr. Kapoor: He supported. Hmm, hmm.
Guru dāsa: If I was the Western government and you handed the most perfect knowledge to me, I would knight you also, in the name of myself. Certainly I would knight you.
Prabhupāda: So Rādhā-kuṇḍa Mukerjee, he has supported cow slaughter. He was given a post, made a parliament member first of all. So this poor man, five hundred rupees per month, he accepted. Then he induced that "You take more money, write like this." So if you pay money... British government's whole policy was that if the Indians are kept strict Hindus, it is next to impossible to govern them. So therefore they adopted this policy. They changed the whole policy how the Hindu will think everything mentioned in the śāstra is nonsense. They have trained up, and Nehru is the first-class trainee. Everything mentioned in the śāstra, the Arya-samaj, they also wrote Saptartha (indistinct), so many. And Dr. Radhakrishnan also. All the scholars, they would never mention any śāstra more than once within one thousand years.
Guest (1): Your home base is in Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: Yes. My headquarter is in Los Angeles. Now we have made very big headquarter in Bombay, Juhu. Twenty thousand square yards. We are constructing a very nice temple there. And similarly, we have got another headquarter at, by pīṭha, in Lord Caitanya's birthsite, Navadvīpa. There also we are constructing very big temple. It is eleven bighās. What is a bighā? About four acres.
Guest (1): What about England? London. How is your movement doing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, London is very... There is also. We have got very nice temple near British Museum, 7 Bury Place. And all Europeans, they come to see our temple from Germany, from France. Because we have been advertised in cooperation with the Beatles. The Beatles, Beatles, the George Harrison. You do not know his name? He is very famous man. Yes. So we have produced some records in cooperation with George Harrison's organization. So because the records are produced through George Harrison, we have got a very, very big sale. You see? And that has advertised Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Temple, London. So people come to see what is this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple, out of... Because London, every day, thousands of visitors come in London. They have got visitors buses also, charge nominal. So London is still important. From all parts of the world people come. So anyone who comes, they come to see our temple.
Prabhupāda: What kind of government it is?
Devotee (1): Loafers.
Śyāmasundara: In India, the post office is always open. There's always some post office open. Even in small towns.
Prabhupāda: That was also British management. Here also British management, how is that?
Devotee (2): In London it's always open.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (2): In London it's always open, the central post office.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): This one shuts down. They are eager to stop work and enjoy their senses. (break)
Prabhupāda: So that anyone questions, you can answer. That is required, preaching. Just like this girl, "Why you are recommending your Bhagavad-gītā?" Answer must be there: "Because this is. "They are all rascals. They are not speaking Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
Devotee: Twelve zones.
Prabhupāda: Twelve zones means?
Devotees: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Whole world? Let me see. (reading) Southeast Asia, Australia, Japan, Korea, (indistinct), India, Central Asia, Mediterranean, Germany, Africa, South America, British Isles, Eastern Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe, (indistinct). So now you have to specifically mention Mediterranean means this. Similarly, all these center(?) should be specifically mentioned this.
Devotee: I was waiting till Śyāmasundara Prabhu came back.
Prabhupāda: Now so far division made by (indistinct), we are present. I'll represent him, that's all. And who else?
Devotee: Sudāmā Maharaja.
Prabhupāda: Eh? That was I'll represent. So...
Devotee: Gaurasundara.
Prabhupāda: Gaurasundara. He has been already agreed. Girirāja also. Those who are absent, I've written them. Now, so far Hayagrīva Prabhu is concerned, he has resigned from this. And he'll concentrate on editorial work. And Kīrtanānanda will become the president of New Vrindaban. So, that question is solved. Now, how the New Vrindaban will be managed, that we shall decide.
Prabhupāda: No. Their policy is that they want to keep the people in that way-rascals and fools—then they'll vote and they'll enjoy the political power. That is their policy. Actually they do not want to see their countrymen elevated good character. They don't want to see. If the people become... Just like the British government in their time, they wanted to give education. Their education means A-B-C-D, half-mediocre, so that the government may be run on. They require clerks, servants, so much, not high education. As soon as there was question of high education, they stopped. And actually it so happened that as soon as the Indian people became highly educated and they learned the history of the world, they kicked them out. So these people, these rascals, Nixon and company, they want to keep the people in ignorance so that they'll get vote and enjoy. If the people become intelligent brāhmaṇas, then immediately he'll be kicked out. What is his value? He has no value. This is policy. They don't want to see that people become elevated in knowledge. That is not their policy. Therefore, they do not agree. Actually they are seeing that "These Hare Kṛṣṇa people, they're so nice character, they're religion, God conscious, so if all people become like this, then where we are?" Because as soon as people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they'll noncooperate with the slaughterhouse, liquor industry, gambling, illicit sex. They will noncooperate. Then the whole plan of civilization will be collapsed.
Prabhupāda: Well, President Nixon means this country. Why he went to China? Why he went to Russia? He's also afraid. If there is war there will be great calamity. So everyone is afraid. Everyone is under the control of the laws of nature. Everyone is hungry. So actually nobody's powerful in this material world. Even if he's powerful, it is for temporary. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Churchills and others came and gone. There was powerful British Empire, powerful Roman Empire. So nobody's powerful. That's a wrong idea. In due course of time everything will be kicked out and finished. That is the law of nature.
Guest (2): Yes, but what I'm trying to get at is that it seems to me that if you carefully look at the world history during the past...
Prabhupāda: World history is that history repeats itself. Everything comes into existence and then vanquished.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you had to close your office?
Sumati Morarjee: We had our own (indistinct), our own house in Chittagong, then our offices, then (indistinct), and our manager he was interned, and we (indistinct) in Karachi also.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Sumati Morarjee: We had big property in Karachi.
Prabhupāda: So, so they cannot return.
Sumati Morarjee: They're not returning anything. With great difficulty. I put up a fight with the British to get back my ship with that interned one passenger.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that scrap I saw when I was going.
Sumati Morarjee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We met on the way.
Sumati Morarjee: Ah.
Prabhupāda: And that ship was returned.
Sumati Morarjee: That was returned. So that I put pressure on the British. That's how we got back the ships. Otherwise we would have lost those two ships.
Prabhupāda: They're very uncultured.
Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so-called scientific improvement, nice medicine, nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall..., I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that?
Indian: That's the hardest (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Just like your British Empire. You are British?
Ian Polsen: Yes.
Prabhupāda: British Empire, when there was British Empire, when they were getting money from all over the world, somehow or other they constructed so many big, big buildings. Now they are encouraging not so big, and now it is difficult to maintain it. We can see practically that you have got so nice buildings in London, but it is not being properly maintained. You haven't got sufficient means now to maintain them. Therefore it was..., British Empire was for the time being that prosperity. Now to keep up your prestige you are concerned in so many ways. So anything you do in this material world, that is temporary. So many-Roman Empire, Moghul Empire, British Empire, Hitler Empire—they came and gone. But my real problem is that I am eternal, so what I am doing for my eternal life? That is it. Temporarily I may become very rich or poor, it doesn't matter. But people are being taught, "Oh, you are poor? You become rich." That's all. Just like our India trying to imitate the Western world. But they do not see that in the Western world, in America, in Europe, why these young boys, they are rejecting this materialistic way of life? These boys have come to me because they have rejected, they don't like. Just like you are coming. Why you are surrendering to me? Because you are not satisfied.
Devotee: Oh. There's some famous islands between England and Holland called the Jersey Islands. There's special milk that comes from Jersey. Jersey milk is best.
Prabhupāda: No. These Europeans, Americans, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll be more happy. That is assured. From all angles of vision-their family life, their political life, their social life, their cultural life, their religious life, their philosophical life, their scientific life—everything will be perfect. Now you have to teach them. I can give you the ideas how they'll be happy. The rascals, they do not know why, what is your specialness, and just to teach you this. My only ambition is that you are... (aside:) Oh, there is no water. You are supposed to be the most intelligent persons. (Prabhupāda drinks) So if you take, others will take. That is going on. So I have no distinction between East and West. They're thinking that East is conquering West by culture. That is their enviousness. (laughter) That is, they are afraid. Because the Britishers, they kept Indian culture suppressed so long because... (break) ...the kṣatriya, kings, in special cases. Not for public. Among the kṣatriyas. And among the vaiśyas, one day in a year, when they were allocated(?), to try one's luck. One day they'll bet. Not amongst the brāhmaṇas or the śūdras. Śūdras have no money to gamble, and brāhmaṇas prohibited. The kṣatriyas, they were also allowed in special cases, and the vaiśyas were allowed to engage in gambling one day in a year. That means restricted.
Devotee: Boy, that system of dharma... We can start discussing it tomorrow in our philosophy class. It's just so perfect. Everything is...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Whole plan is perfect.
Devotee: But the British systematically broke it down.
Prabhupāda: Because Lord Macauley(?) gave them in this study, they said that if you keep the Indians in their original culture, then they cannot be broken. Gandhi took that state: noncooperation. Don't cooperate with them. And then kill them. Devotee: This man who wrote this book made an interesting comment. He said that after..., or before the First World War, when the British were entering the First World War, they made a promise to the Indians that "If you help us fight this war, then we will give you freedom afterwards."
Prabhupāda: They did not.
Prabhupāda: In America general life is becoming wretched.
Devotee: Wretched. Police don't even carry guns here.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: Policemen don't even carry guns in Britain, but in America every policeman's got at least one gun.
Prabhupāda: The Englishman... I've studied Englishman. They consider America is still uncivilized. They say like that. (indistinct)
Devotee: Still uncivilized, yeah.
Prabhupāda: But here also hippy-ism growing.
Devotee: They've lost that old aristocracy civilization. Losing it fast.
Prabhupāda: So write Girirāja immediately a letter, that she agreed to be president of the trust. You make a trust body for fund-raising, and our best life members, like Sumati Morarji, and make her the president of the trust. You remain the secretary, and other also, as treasurer also. One or two of her own men.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The influence of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, propaganda. That is the cause of India's cultural falldown. These Britishers simply made propaganda that "Whatever you have got in India, this is all allegory, fiction. These śāstras are nothing. But now you are learning from us England's work in India, that is your real... You are becoming civilized now. Otherwise, you are in the utopia, and all these śāstras, throw it out." Because that was Lord Macauley's policy. Lord Macauley was sent to report how Indians can be governed nicely. So he reported that if you keep the Indians as Indians, you will never be able to govern them, because they are superior. You make propaganda that they are inferior and they will imitate you and then you can... That they did.
Jayatīrtha: The Indians would never be able to compete on the Britishers' platform.
Prabhupāda: No. Under the British rule, from the childhood they are subjected to the propaganda. We read one book, small book, by M. Ghose. The subject matter was England's work in India. That was a compulsory reading book in the schools. And in that book, it was simply stated that "we are uncivilized, but since the Britishers have come, we are becoming civilized. "This is the subject matter of that book, "England's work in India." So everything Indian... The Jawaharlal is the typical example—everything Indian is bad. That was his philosophy. Gandhi was trying to get the Indians back to village. His philosophy was that these capitalists, they are exploiting these poor men, so all these poor men, they should go back to village and be satisfied with the village economy, not to come out. Actually that's a very nice program. But as soon as Gandhi died, or he was killed, the whole program was changed-industrialization and attract the poor man and let them live in wretched condition of city life. Gandhi's policy was to make them happy by agriculture in the village, produce their own cloth, not in the mill but in charka.
Śyāmasundara: Fire.
Prabhupāda: Fire, mind, intelligence, ego. These eight elements. Kṛṣṇa says that "They are my energies." The things which are made by Kṛṣṇa's energy, how you can claim your property? Suppose a carpenter comes, you give him money to prepare some chair. The money is your energy. Now when the chair is prepared, he cannot claim that "I have prepared this chair. It is my property." No. It has been made with my energy; therefore it is my property. So if you make analysis of this whole cosmic situation you will find that everything is made out of the energy of God. Then how you can claim that "I am proprietor"? This is false. This is called māyā. Just like we have seen in Calcutta when there was a (indistinct) during the transition state. Britishers are going on. There was a great Hindu-Muslim riot. Now they fought, Hindus and Muslims, and they died. After death, they're lying piles of dead body. No more Hindu and Muslim. It is simply lump of matter. But because they got a type of body, a type of mental situation, consciousness, they fought with one another, and then after death, no more claiming "Hindu" and "Muslim." This is called illusion. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am this," "I am that"—these are all designation. Really what I am? I am pure soul, part and parcel of God. That is my identity. So people should be taught this science. As soon as one understands his constitutional position, his actual situation, then he says, "Oh, I am not this. I was struggling so hard under some misidentification."
Yaśodānandana: We want to put Kṛṣṇa in palace.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving you the opportunity, you Americans. Now you are taking Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will be the most opulent nation of the world. Lakṣmī-Nārāyaṇa both. You have got Lakṣmī, but if you take Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣmī will be permanent. Lakṣmī will not go. And if you reject Nārāyaṇa, then Lakṣmī will stay for some time. That is Cañcalā. Her name is Cañcalā. The British empire has failed, the Roman Empire has failed, the so many empires, the Mogul empire has failed, because they wanted Lakṣmī, not Nārāyaṇa. If you take Nārāyaṇa, your Lakṣmī will stay. Just try to convince your countrymen, just like President Nixon. It is Kṛṣṇa's desire that I was dictated to go to America, because Kṛṣṇa wants that you should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa wants. So you have taken. Now spread. It will be grand success. And there are so many candidates, very nice. All right, go on, take... (end)
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Before that, there were no brain.
Brahmānanda: 'Cause they didn't understand his theory.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because before that, they're thinking that there's no intelligent person...
Prabhupāda: That, that, I am pointing out, that all intelligent persons, during the British Empire, they came out. The whole aim was to defy the Indian civilization.
Karandhara: They call it the "Age of Enlightenment."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: After the fifteenth century, they call it the "Age of Enlightenment."
Prabhupāda: So the Britishers, they wanted to rule over India, and they were advertising, at least in India, that: "We are making you civilized. Before British rule, the Indians were rude, primitive natives." That's all. That is their propaganda. The whole propaganda was to make the Indians known that: "We are giving you life and civilization. Before this, you were not even human beings." That is their propaganda. So they accept this literature, but they date within one thousand years, one thousand-five hundred years. Even this rascal, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he dates Bhagavad-gītā within two thousand years. That's all. Perhaps I am the first person making propaganda that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. I am the first person. All other so-called scholars, they have dated within two thousand years. (pause) There was a book: "England's work in India," written by one rascal Indian, M. Ghosh. In that book... That was taught in the schools in our days. The theme of the book is that before British rule, India was not at all advanced in any way. The incidence of satī... Satī. That was very elaborately explained.
Brahmānanda: Gāndhārī, wife of Dhṛtarāṣṭra.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So later on such devoted wife was lacking. So the system was, some cases, they were forced to die. So these things have been elaborately explained in the, that book, and Britishers stopped it. So the Indians were uncivilized. Britishers made them civilized. Everything was misinterpreted. Yes.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they do not know the inner meaning...
Prabhupāda: No, inner meaning is there. But they would not explain that. Simply the dark side, they would explain. And prove that the Indian civilization was very crude and primitive. It has no enlightenment. That was British propaganda. Even during national movement, they bribed one American woman, and she wrote a book: "Mother India." Do you know that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, I, no...
Prabhupāda: Ah. "Mother India." She described all the blackmailing of Indian social activities, and Gandhi remarked it: "Drain Inspector's report."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this is a demoniac quality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These Britishers should have tried to assimilate the mass Indian culture with their help, administrative help, to broadcast this culture. No. They wanted to exploit India, and prove that "our ruling over India"... Because they have to show something to the outside world...
Brahmānanda: To justify that exploitation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) They would not allow anyone to enter India to make trade. And that is the cause of two big world wars. This is a... Real cause is India. Because the Germans, they were very intelligent. They were intelligent nation. They wanted to trade with India. So Britishers will not allow them. Actually, Britishers were selling goods, purchasing from Germany and Japan, And when German would go to trade, they will enhance the custom duty very, very large amount. So that was the grudge of the German nation. Two times, they fought with that "Finish these Britishers-shop-keeper's nation." Yes. Hitler, Hitler was... Hitler or the Emperor Wilhelm, some of them, one of them, was calling the Britishers: "shop-keeper's nation."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Shop-keeper's nail?
Prabhupāda: Shop-keeper's nation.
Brahmānanda: A nation of shop-keepers only.
Prabhupāda: That's right. Why the shop-keeper's nation should predominate all over the world? Kill them. That is their (indistinct). And actually it is the German people who killed Britishers, British lion. Apart, after the Second War...
Brahmānanda: British was finished.
Prabhupāda: Finished. Everyone in the United Nations pressed on them: "Why you are colonizing? Why you are occupying so much land? You give up." They were obliged. And there was great national movement of Gandhi. So all United Nations pressed that: "They're wanting to avoid you. Why you are, by force, staying there?" Still, they would not go. But when the soldiers began to join the national movement, they gave it up. "Now we cannot rule it." How very nasty! For their political power, they did so many heinous activities in India. That's a great history. For selling their cotton goods, India's weavers were cut this finger so that they cannot weave. This is there in the history.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And Sir Walter Scott were known two very great English literary men.
Karandhara: Novelists.
Prabhupāda: After sixth year... Yes novelists. So the relationship was very nice. There were... Otherwise, how the Britishers could rule, unless there was obedience. But as soon as they saw now the obedience is going on, the soldiers are leaving our camp and joining the national camp," immediately they decided to leave peacefully. Otherwise, there would be some revolution. At that time, all good relationship will go. Better separate with good relation. This was Attlee's policy, to convince statesmen like Churchill that: "You cannot rule over India any more. Better separate in good relationship."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: A few weeks ago, there was a supplement in the Times, the London Times. So they were describing about the very relationship between British and India, in the early British period and after the British period. There they talked only about very good points, whereas they never say anything about... All good points.
Prabhupāda: No, that... When they discuss, they must describe the good points only. But some of the British rulers were very, very unkind. And the last was that Jallianwalla Bagh massacre, created by Lord Chelmsford. Then the British rule finished. In 1917, and immediately Gandhi started non-cooperation movement. So after thirty years, the Britishers were obliged to leave.
Śyāmasundara: They're bringing some prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Is there any other paper? No, it is a very impressive picture.
David Wynne: It's wonderful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have given, "A Rival for Nelson." So this movement is a rival... Days were there in British Empire that Nelson was a hero. Now Kṛṣṇa is going to be hero in this country. (laughter) It is a good admission, "A Rival for Nelson." Actually, He should be.
Śyāmasundara: Now no one even remembers Nelson.
Revatīnandana: I have.
Śyāmasundara: I never heard of him.
Prabhupāda: Lord Nelson, he fought the Spanish battle, I think.
David Wynne: I don't know.
Prabhupāda: He died, but became victorious. Yes. I think during Queen, last Elizabeth's time, or something...?
yāmasundara: All right.
Prabhupāda: I don't want any antique. (laughter)
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Oh, this... Which king is this?
David Wynne: That's William the (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: Oh, King William. The British...
Prabhupāda: I think Queen Victoria's father. King William. Is it not?
David Wynne: Uh huh. (Yes.)
Śyāmasundara: When David was commissioned by the Queen's husband, Duke of Edinbur...? Duke of...?
David Wynne: Edinburgh.
Śyāmasundara: Duke of Edinburgh. He went before a committee of the Duke and how many...? You tell us.
David Wynne: Twelve.
Śyāmasundara: He won a competition over many others for that privilege to make the coins. And his point was that the Queen Mother, the Queen on the coin, it should not be false representation. It should be... What was the...? You were telling us, that it should be as she is, depicted as she is. And they did not agree. But then he showed he, but then he showed them an old British coin. What year was it?
David Wynne: Yes. Well, Queen Elizabeth the First, a gold coin, very beautiful. And I said this was a work of art, and I showed them. It's a very beautiful thing. And I said, "I could do you one like that." So they... So I got the job. But he was very annoyed.
Śyāmasundara: East India Company, it says on here.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: So the coins were given out by the East India Company.
Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all the Britishers went there as East India Company to have trade connection.
Śyāmasundara: From who?
Prabhupāda: From the currency, government currency.
Śyāmasundara: Government.
Prabhupāda: Any amount of coins. In our childhood... Why our childhood? Even when we were young men, the Indians, generally, they like Guinea gold, British Guinea, what is called, pound?
Śyāmasundara: One pound, one shilling.
Prabhupāda: So in India it was available, any amount. You pay price and take. And they would melt it and make ornament, that Guinea gold. There was no restriction. You can purchase any amount.
Śyāmasundara: Why all of a sudden it changed?
Prabhupāda: But, they have lost all gold. There is no gold, simply paper. That's all. Simply blessing, "Yes, you'll get money." (laughter) But you'll never get. In the bank also, any amount of gold you can purchase. Bank was canvassing that "You take gold from us." I do not know where those gold gone. Nowhere, all over the world, you cannot purchase gold. Even in America.
Guest: This country of India. India was not liberated. So...
Prabhupāda: So what was the connection with liberation?
Guest: Ne. Because at that time there's some proud of nation and some proud of culture. He wanted to...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't think in America there was such conception. America had nothing to do with the British ruling. Rather, they declared independence from British rule.
Guest: I don't know what was the main idea of Swami Vivekananda at that time, when he preached that, this Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, I have read his Chicago speech. In that speech, he openly says, "Why do you care for God? You work hard, and why do you give credit to God?" Like that. Rather, one Christian priest protested...
Guest: But many times Swami Vivekananda himself went to temples and bowed down before Kālī, before Śrī Kṛṣṇa, before Śrī Bhavānī, and many other temples. He went to Kanyā-kumārī and prayed before Mother.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Distribute the prasāda. Bhagavān ka prasāda. Hm. That's all. So it is a great pleasure for us. Your Holiness visits us voluntarily. Although I could not invite you, but still, you are so kind, you came. So I am doing my bit, following in the footsteps of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. That's all.
Guest (3) (young British woman): Religion, meaning trying to serve God, is any more right than another?
Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is the only business. Religion is different thing. Suppose... Just like... I have already explained, that you are sleeping, and you have got a good engagement. And somebody's trying to awake you, that "You have to go there. Just get up! Get up!" So this kind of business is not religion. Religion is a, what is a kind of faith, a sentiment. That is different thing. It is the main business of human being. Because we are part and parcel of... Just like a boy, he's very rich man's son. Some way or other, he's out of his home, and he's suffering for want of food, want of shelter. And somebody's giving information that "I know you are such and such big man's son. Why you are loitering in the street? Why don't you go back to your home, back to your father?" So is it not the best business. So everyone is suffering. That I have already explained, how they are suffering. We are trying to save his suffering by dispatching him back to home, back to Godhead. This is our business. So it is not religion. It is the most important humanitarian work. What do you think?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. Inside and outside, both.
Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man.
Prabhupāda: Outside man?
Mrs. Wells: The actions...
Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person.
Prabhupāda: Outward manifestation?
Guest 1: Hm.
Prabhupāda: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me?
Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron.
Prabhupāda: But you put the iron in the fire...
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.
Guest (1): It's only a question of time and your convenience.
Prabhupāda: No, I am, I am for your service.
Guest (2) (British man): Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Come again.
Guest (2): Thank you very much.
Guest (1): This is Bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Oh! Bhakti-latā, very good.
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: That's nice. She is your eldest daughter?
Guest (1): No, she's my sister.
Prabhupāda: Sister. Oh, I see.
Guest (1): She's getting married on this day. (Hindi for few sentences)
Guest (2): No, I can't remember. About thirty-one as well.
Prabhupāda: You often then really come here?
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupāda: This is first time you are coming?
David Lawrence: They offer nothing, is it, in the material world.
Prabhupāda: So you give... Yes. That is the... The only difference is that in human form of life you can awaken your Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the animal form... Here we are sitting with all human form of life, gentlemen, civilized men. I cannot call cats and dogs and sit here, and to understand what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not possible. Therefore this opportunity should be given. This opportunity should be given. And especially, you are English nation, recognized, great nation, respectful, you are respected... Especially in India, we have got very good respect for English nation. We had connection for so many years. And the politicians, they spoiled. Otherwise, the, I, we liked the British Empire, means unity of the human being all over the world. That can be revived again. That can be revived again. If you come to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, your Queen comes to that,... There is process. There is process. You can revive your British Empire. It is not story. If you people take little advice from me, I can help you. Yes. You are intelligent nation. So kindly do this service to the students and awaken their dormant Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be a great service. And we are meant for helping you all. So you can inquire. You are at liberty to come at any time and inquire.
Prabhupāda: And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). And when we regularly perform yajña, then there is regular cloud in the sky. And when there is cloud in the sky, there is regular rainfall, and when there is regular rainfall, there is sufficient production of food grains, fruits and other vegetables so that both the animal and the human beings, they eat sufficiently, they grow strength, they become happy and again perform yajña. And the animals supply, the cow supplies milk. In this way, the whole society becomes happy. These are the prescriptions, or directions, given by the Vedic literature. So if people take advantage of this instruction, as you have mentioned in your article "The Great Seers," so if we follow their instruction, the whole history of the human being can be changed. There is no difficulty. But whether the people will accept or not, that is the business of the leaders of the society. So far I think that British people, they organized very nicely the British Empire, but some way or other, it is now lost. But still, the British prestige can be elevated if actually, according to the Vedic instruction, you try to make your social construction, the political institution and economic development... Every direction is there. So you are all great historians. And there are many politicians. If you take this instruction of the Vedas little seriously, you can make your state an ideal state, and people are still ready to follow you. Then the whole history of the world will change. And if you people agree, then I can help you. I can help.
Prabhupāda: No. The inquiry was that "If we again give votes to the Englishmen, will they come and do." (laughs)
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they were feeling the... Actually, in India... In our childhood, we know. Every Indian felt very secure. They never expected that Britishers will go. They were so sympathetic. And now they... This is the pulse felt by that statistics officer. They are not very much satisfied with the present system of government. British administration was very much appreciated by the Indians. Even Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura appreciated. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, he has written in something, somewhere, that "The Britishers also very nice because they don't interfere with the religious affairs." So as soon as they changed their views and tried to divide the Hindus and Muslims, the British Empire lost. According to Queen's declaration, the Britishers pledged that "They will not interfere with your religious affairs." Later on, for political purposes, when they interfered with this Hindu-Muslim question, then the British Empire lost.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. But the people who rule India now have a western education mostly. The Indians who...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Perverted, converted. Just like Nehru. Nehru was western-educated. He was educated in London. But he hated everything Indian.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: There are some signs in western countries, of people turning away from just money-making professions, I think. Small signs, but distinct signs perhaps. But it'll take a long time, and probably only through a great deal of suffering will people learn to change their attitude to life, I think. I think in Britain at the present, people of all classes are going for more wealth, more material standard of living, and so on, they're thinking almost entirely of this, which doesn't make for happiness and cannot really be achieved by everybody.
Śyāmasundara: Many young people, especially young people...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Many people nowadays are finding this renunciation quite simple and easy...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...as Prabhupāda was saying about the four rules and so many other activities. We may perform something on the surface, but the renunciation is there in our consciousness because we're giving everything to Kṛṣṇa as a service.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes. What about America? (Sound of glasses of water being poured)
Śyāmasundara: Oh yes.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: That's good. (?)
Devotee: Some water, Dr. Toynbee?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: No, thank you. And what about Japan? She's an Asian country, but has been very successful in the western way now.
Śyāmasundara: Well, we have two centers there also. Japan also, we have centers.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: I get the impression the Japanese are not very happy. They're very...
Prabhupāda: Nobody can be happy with this materialistic way of life. That is a fact.
Prabhupāda: So that is natu... That is good. Big, big man. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He was lear... "I am fool number one." And the author of Caitanya-caritāmṛta, he says that "I am lower than the, a worm in the stool." So this is good attitude. Nobody... Sir Isaac Newton also used to say that "What knowledge I have got. I have simply collected..." They're... Every, every big man thinks like that. That is good attitude. But there is comparative study, that "Here is a big man, here is a common man." So our proposition is that it is a great science, great philosophy. So western countries, they are intelligent, especially the Britain, British people. They had very good opportunity. Still they have got opportunity. So my request is that let us study this philosophy and science and if possible introduce it in the human society. That is our proposal.
Śyāmasundara: I think Lord Brockway was saying that his ideal is that, at present moment, that men of the world try to make an understanding, intellectual understanding of the problems and try to make an intellectual solution...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...philosophical, conscious...
Prabhupāda: So here is the opportunity. Here is the opportunity.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's what impressed us. In one sense, this House of Lords preserves your cultural advantages.
Lord Brockway: Yes, a little. I would make it into a political British association, just as the British Association is gathering of all the scientists. I would have the House of Lords gathering of people who are representative of creative thought in all spheres, from all spheres.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, great thinkers from all different parts of society.
Lord Brockway: Yes. Then I think it could be a real gathering.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. We noticed that day in the House of Lords that great, such great thinkers were discussing topics.
Prabhupāda: Yes, selected persons.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. About three thousand years ago.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, three thousand years ago.
Lord Brockway: Three thousand years ago!
Śyāmasundara: He's written a book of...
Prabhupāda: During the time of Candragupta. Before Mohammedan or British rule. Long ago.
Śyāmasundara: He wrote a book of political wisdom, how to run on the state.
Prabhupāda: According to his opinion, viśvāso naiva... (someone knocks on the door) Yes? Come on. Viśvāso naiva kartavyaḥ strīṣu rāja-kuleṣu ca. He's giving warning that "Never trust woman and politician." (laughs)
Lord Brockway: A great deal of truth in that. (laughter) Well, Your Divine Grace, I must be going.
Prabhupāda: All right. Thank you for your coming here.
Lord Brockway: It has been a great privilege to meet you.
Prabhupāda: We enjoyed your company, talked very nicely. Sometimes you come with your wife.
Lord Brockway: I would have liked that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They've got New Vrindaban, New Navadvīpa, New Jagannātha Purī, New Dvārakā...
Pradyumna: New Gayā...
Prabhupāda: ...New Gayā, and this is the New Gokula. You are in touch in politics, therefore I'm talking something of politics, that the politicians of India, they wanted the..., from the British government, India, a strong united nation. But they could not achieve that goal. Pakistan was taken away. They're now lamenting, or there is some, always unsettled anxiety due to Pakistan. So... So far this movement is concerned, we are spreading the Indian culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all over the world. So the politicians are lamenting for division of India, and here is a movement that everyone will glorify India for this culture. Why do they not join? It is practical.
Reporter: Yeah. But the trouble is that politicians are not interested in Indian culture; they're interested in power.
Prabhupāda: Therefore they're mūḍhas.
Reporter: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is Vedic knowledge. So you'll get everything perfect. Therefore, how there can be any history? That is the difficulty. We are speaking everything, of the spiritual. Therefore, it is sometimes very difficult for the gross materialist. They are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.
David Lawrence: The British Association which is, many people regard an irrelevant bunch of scientists, who meet once a year, one of the good speeches was in fact given on the question of the value of human life. And one of the points was made there by somebody who has had to talk to these girls who come in to have abortions, some cases their third and fourth abortion, and they're not married of course. And saying that many of the girls regard an abortion in the same way as they regard a shampoo for their hair.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
David Lawrence: "O, well you know, hair's got to be washed, we wash hair. Womb's got to be cleaned out, we clean the womb out." Just like that.
Prabhupāda: And where is movement in the shampoo? That means that human beings are simply being put into ignorance, animal kingdom. This is modern civilization.
Guest (1) (British man): ...wisdom was not of the Western order...
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (1): ...nor any means at all.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (1): And since it's so very rare that I have an opportunity of hearing such wisdom, I decided to be bold enough to seek more of what you've got to say.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughs) So, everything is stated in our books. You have seen all our books?
Guest (1): I've only seen vaguely, but I will have a look of course.
Prabhupāda: You can show all the books.
Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book.
Prabhupāda: Oh, this is second part. You have got the first part, second part is there?
Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Guest (1): (break) If I tell you how far I have been traveling, you will know into which coach to put me, yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1) (British man): ...wisdom was not of the Western order...
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (1): ...nor any means at all.
Prabhupāda: No.
Guest (1): And since it's so very rare that I have an opportunity of hearing such wisdom, I decided to be bold enough to seek more of what you've got to say.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (laughs) So, everything is stated in our books. You have seen all our books?
Guest (1): I've only seen vaguely, but I will have a look of course.
Prabhupāda: You can show all the books.
Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book.
Prabhupāda: Oh, this is second part. You have got the first part, second part is there?
Pradyumna: This is Kṛṣṇa Book and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Guest (1): (break) If I tell you how far I have been traveling, you will know into which coach to put me, yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Banker: It's thirty-three minutes by train from Churchgate to Juhu.
Gargamuni: But now he's not staying there. He's staying in town.
Banker: That's only because I'm going to New York next week. Only reason.
Prabhupāda: That is not other reason. There are many officers of your bank might be living there?
Banker: National and Grindlay's bank officers are there. Several British companies have officers there. I was the only American for awhile.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you'll be moving out there again when you come back?
Banker: No, I've been transferred to New York. I'm in a hotel because my things are packed.
Prabhupāda: You are going to New York?
Banker: Next week. I brought Bhanu, so in the future if you need any help, you just see her in the bank. She's interested and aware.
Prabhupāda: She's going also with you?
Banker: She will be in Bombay. She's at our main branch.
Prabhupāda: You are working in the bank?
Lady: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That Marconi wireless.
Bali Mardana: Wireless, radio.
Prabhupāda: Yes, radio. That was Jagadisha Candra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadisha Candra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago. They bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom.
Jayādvaita: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad-gītā is only two thousand years old, like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They will never accept it.
Yaśomatīnandana: One stupid guy was saying that there is some quotation in the Bhagavad-gītā from Book of John.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another rascaldom. Tava cārjuna.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One of the members was our relative. So we are staying with them, these Mulliks. He had no sons. So we were staying, some relatives. Therefore I was born in that family, although they are our distant relations. But when I was, my father was staying there, I was born. These Mulliks they are also De. Their original title is De. This Mullik is their title.
Yaśomatīnandana: For being in the Mohammedan service?
Prabhupāda: Yes, not service. Sometimes the Mohammedans used to give... Just like the British government used to give titles, "Sir", like that. Mullik, Mullik comes from the word "mallika".
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Mallika means owner, the owner?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mullik, Chaudhuri, Raya. These are Mohammedan titles. Khan. Like that. (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...family names, we said two family names, like Raya Chaudhuri, like Datta Gupta. How this happened?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like the Mulliks they're De Mullik. The original title is De but they got the title Mullik. Similarly, there is another family. They are called Sil Mullik. The original title is Sil but they got the title. As De we belong to the same family. But because, somehow or other, they got this title, so they... It is not different but... (break)
Umāpati: I just know when I close my eyes, it's dark.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient. Therefore doctor is also patient because he's in the hospital. In the prisonhouse they're all prisoners. Therefore the superintendent of police he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit, he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. God means He has got a special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva-rāṭ. This word is used in Bhāgavatam, sva-rāṭ: "completely independent." Who is that rascal, Bernard Russell? He is a well...
Yaśomatīnandana: Bertrand Russell. Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago?
Umāpati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems.
Prabhupāda: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog?
Prabhupāda: Well, in politics, unless there is violence, you cannot take. Simply by sweet words, not possible. That was the difference between our political leaders, Mahatma Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose. So Subhash Chandra Bose was of opinion that—and that is a fact—that "You are agitating non-violence. These people will never care for your non-violence. Unless there is violence, so these Britishers will never go away." So Gandhi would say, "No, I am not going to accept this violence theory. I shall continue." So for thirty years... He started from 1917 and up to '47, the Britishers did not go. But when Subhash Chandra Bose, he saw... He took the political power. He became the president. But Gandhi was angry. So because he was old leader, out of respect, he resigned the presidentship. Then he though that "So long this man will live, there will be no independence." So he went out of India and joined with Hitler, and Tojo, Japanese.
Prabhupāda: This Subhash Chandra Bose. And he organized the INA, Indian National Army. So when this Indian National Army was organized and the Britishers... They were great politicians. They saw, "Now the army is going to national movement. We cannot be." Then they left. Because it was not possible. They were maintaining British Empire with Indian money, Indian men. You see? They did not conquer by their British soldiers all round the Far East, Burma and the Mesopotamia, and the Egypt. That was Indian army, the Sikh soldiers and the Gurkha soldiers, and Indian money. On the pretext that "For Indian protection, we are maintaining this army." Actually, they were expanding their empire. Africa, Burma. And when they saw that "India is lost," voluntarily they liquidated all others. Went back... Back to home, back to Godhead. (devotees laugh) So in politics this is nonsense, non-violence. It is nonsense, cowardism. In politics in sweet words you cannot get. There must be fight, arms. That is army. "If you don't agree, then fist." That is politics. There must be violence. Otherwise you cannot control. When there is educated good men, then you can argue. But when people are ruffians, there is no question of good... Argumentum vaculum, I told you the other day... (break) ...in the beginning of creation, the fight between the demons and the demigods, devāsura-yuddha. That is always there. In the European history, without revolution, no order changes. Even the Russian Revolution was there. French revolution was there. In England, Cromwell? Cromwell? Cromwell Revolution?
| Page Title: | British (Conversations 1968 - 1973) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 09 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=59, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 59 |