Brain (Conversations 1977)

Prabhupāda: Trouble. And whisping for laugh. That's all. (laughs) Whisping or whispering?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whispering.

Prabhupāda: (chuckling) "Idle brain, devil's workshop." Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In the year 1976 we cultivated 5 acres of vegetables, including 24 tons of potatoes. We also have 25 beehives, which produce 100 pounds of honey per hive. There is also a fruit orchard with a 150 trees, including apples, pears, peaches, and plum trees. Lastly, we are fortunate..."

Prabhupāda: Those fruits are nice fruits.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Lastly we are fortunate to have two natural pure water mountain springs running continuously all year. The water is being bottled and then distributed." And we take that water to New York.

Prabhupāda: Very digestive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. And water sells now for a dollar a gallon now in New York. A good market.

Prabhupāda: Just see.

Brahmānanda: Yes. But he's our good friend and supporter. He will help us in Mombassa very much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Farm project is very nice. Kṛṣṇa gives. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). This is economic problem solved. And brāhmaṇa, brain problem solved, and kṣatriya, protection problem solved, and śūdra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature's way. Pūrṇam idam (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Everything, complete arrangement by Kṛṣṇa. We have to little work. Śarīra-yātrāpi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ. If you sit idly, then you'll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one person, God, He's supplying everyone whatever necessities. You have to simply work little. That is material world. In the material world you have to work. And in the spiritual world there is no question, work. Whatever you require, you desire, everything is there. Cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa (Bs. 5.29). You get everything as soon as you desire it. You haven't got to work. That is spiritual world. In material world, to get your necessities you have to work. You get this flower, little working. You grow the seeds, put little water, and it will be... And in spiritual world, as soon as you desire, "I want this flower," it is ready. There also māyā is working. Māyā means energy, Kṛṣṇa's energy. Here also energy is working. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām (Bg 7.10). Kṛṣṇa is preparing the seed. You have to work little. You cannot prepare the seed. That is in Kṛṣṇa's hand. You cannot prepare the seed in your so-called rascals' laboratory. That is not. Is it possible.? Hm? Why now they are so much proud with their scientific knowledge? Our Svarūpa Dāmodara is convinced this so-called scientific knowledge is bogus.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. All these... We had all Scottish professors and one English professor. He was Mr. Warren. Otherwise, Mr. Scrimgeour, Mr. Cameron, Dr. Urquhart. We had all European professors.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They were a little strict. They were strict?

Prabhupāda: No, they were very good gentlemen. Dr. Urquhart was a godly man. He was so nice.

Satsvarūpa: Isn't he the one who said the woman's brain is thirty-two...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. I remember. He told, the woman's brain, thirty-four ounce, man's brain, up to sixty-four ounce. He told. I remember. He was very saintly man, Dr. Urquhart. And before that there was one principal. He's Watt, Mr. Watt. He was the roughest man. He'd fight with the students like guṇḍā, Mr. Watt. But he was very good manager, principal.

Satsvarūpa: Did they try to make you Christian? Like that?

Prabhupāda: No. There was Bible class, compulsory, half an hour, from one to half past one.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No Bhagavad-gītā.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No. They used to supply yearly one Bible, very nice.

Prabhupāda: Then again operated.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, another operation. Then another thing they were describing that there was a patient who was dying. There was no chance of his recovery, but still, in order to get... The man was a big man. So the television was covering because he was an important political figure. So the doctor performed a big brain operation, even though there was no purpose whatsoever, so that he could get advertised on the television as a very important doctor. And at one point he said, "Now bring in the television," and he cut the man's head and did a whole operation for no purpose at all. The person died anyway. But he was given advertisement that he was the most important surgeon. And they talk amongst themselves. She knew all this.

Prabhupāda: They were arranging my brain operation.

Prabhupāda: I could understand that. Therefore I said, "No, I am quite..." (laughs) They were arranging for my brain operation, very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This brain thing now, another thing they have done. One of the things they do now in the hospitals is they give this shock treatment on the brain.

Brahmānanda: They put electricity into the brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The deprogrammers are using this. They call it "psychological readjustment," and they put electrical wires...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they put some machine in my head.

Brahmānanda: Well, that was for testing the brain waves. But this way, they put electric current into the brain...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And burn part of the brain, destroy the brain. One girl in our temple in New York, her father is the owner of Financed Foods, which is a very big food market chain like A P supermarkets, very big, and her father owns it. So she... When she was young or before joining, she was a hippie. So her father didn't like that she was a hippie, so he had her put in the mental institution, and for 120 days in a row every day they gave her these shock treatments, and now she cannot remember hardly anything. When we talk to her she is just like, almost like a vegetable. I mean to say she cannot function as a normal person because her brain has been destroyed. Her father was trying to make her normal. Still, she has become a devotee. Now her father has again called her, telling her that he wants to have her go to the hospital to make her more "sane." He's destroyed his daughter, but he doesn't see that. I don't know if I told you about the person in Texas. Did I tell that story?

Hari-śauri: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No? Recently, about a month ago... This will give you an indication of the nature of how many people are becoming in America, and especially the authorities are becoming very unjust. One man had a son in Texas and the boy was smoking marijuana. He was smoking for about a month or two. So for two weeks, when his father came to know, his father was telling him, "You should stop this smoking of marijuana," but the boy continued to smoke it. So one night the father came into the boy's room, took out a gun and shot his brains, killed him.

Prabhupāda: Killed him?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Killed his own son because he was smoking marijuana. He couldn't stand that the boy was smoking marijuana. Then after killing him he went to the police and turned himself in. So he came before the judge, woman judge, and he said that "I could not help it. This boy is my son, and look what he was doing. It is abominable. I had to kill him." And the judge said, "Yes, I can understand your feelings. It was intolerable." And she let the man go without one day jail sentence. No reprimand even. So this is the thing that is starting to happen now, that they are lobbying in the Congress in the United States to pass laws that if someone is abnormal, then the parents should have the right to commit him to psychological treatments. Even the child may be fifty years old and the parent may be seventy years old, if the parents think that child is not sane, then they have the right to get the child committed. So this is being passed in a couple of states, and already in California...

Prabhupāda: This is very dangerous.

Prabhupāda: She had been dictated to write like that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. But probably they did some brain thing to her.

Prabhupāda: That is brainwash.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. That is brainwashing. In fact, they may have given her shock treatments and drugs. They give very heavy drugs with the idea that they will make her forget about Kṛṣṇa, and now they will bring her to court to testify against the Society, that "They did this to me. The Society was making me do this and this, and now I'm much healthier."

Prabhupāda: No, then the authorities are, mean, determined to stop this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. It's a dangerous position. This is actually is dangerous position, because they are very powerful. There are many lobbying people. In other words, there are big groups of Christian, Jewish groups. They are especially active because they see that these other movements, not only ours, are taking the young people away from their religions. So they are actively collecting money and giving it to the deprogrammers. They are supplying funds. Just like one man gave this Phoenix, Arizona, center a donation of a hundred thousand dollars to set up their center for taking these young people. And they are internationally organized. They have big centers all over the world now.

Brahmānanda: London, France, Australia, South America.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Canada, Australia. The problem is that... Actually it's a fact that many of these groups are bad. They're cheating. Of course, ours is not, but because they're not very intelligent, they cannot see the distinction. Probably as a result of this court case, we will make them aware that now the other groups are bogus but we are not. That they'll have to admit. That will be the effect. But at least up until now we are being lumped in with these other bad groups. Cults, they call them. But it's a very dangerous thing. Therefore the lawyers and all of the scholars and intelligentsia of the United States is very alarmed that this is a great treading on human rights. This is a great danger to human rights because the Fifth Amendment of the... The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion. But according to these laws that they want to pass, a parent can say, "It is not a question of religion. My son has become abnormal." So who is to say what is religion and what is abnormal? They are saying, "This is not religion." So we have to prove, "No, this is... Hare Kṛṣṇa is a religion." Otherwise they are saying this is abnormal. Now, just... Our lawyer has pointed out that if you say that the devotees' preaching is brainwash, then you must say that every single Christian priest who preaches, he is also brainwashing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: "It is not brain-washing, but you have no brain. There is no question of washing. We have to give you brain."

Pradyumna: The brain...

Prabhupāda: Brain means proper intelligence. That is brain. Dhīra, sober, that is brain. Anyone who has got brain, he will understand the simple logic, that how the body is changing. There is something; therefore body's changing from childhood to boyhood. And as soon as that important thing is missing—no more change of body. It is a dead matter. So where is your brain to understand this simple truth? Hm?

Pradyumna: Because it's dulled from sense gratification, they can't under...

Prabhupāda: "So whatever the cause, but you have no brain. Cause may be so many things. But you have no brain to understand the simple truth. Where is your brain? So this movement is not brainwashing. Brain-giving. You have no brain." Therefore śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Animal has no brain. They say animal has no soul, but that's not the fact. Animal has no brain. Otherwise, all anatomical, physical, physiological conditions are there. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. But they have no brain. They cannot understand what is the difference between dead man and living man. That is the distinction between man and animal. But if you cannot understand, then where is your brain? On this point. Actually he has no brain. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). That was the point Arjuna was chastised, that "You rascal, you have no brain. You are lamenting on this body and talking like very learned man." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca... (BG 2.11). The whole world is going on like that. They're talking like very big scientist, big philosopher, very big, big, big, but real thing they do not know. "So where is your brain?" Challenge them like that. "You cannot answer. You are big, big scientist, putting forward, 'by combination of chemical...' So why don't you combine the chemical and give the dead man to become alive? Where is your brain? You simply say 'combination of chemical,' but you take the chemicals and combine, then we can understand you have got brain.

Prabhupāda: Oh. If we challenge them that "You have no brain. You cannot answer this," then what will be their answer?

Ādi-keśava: They will say to us, "Well, we have brain, and it is functioning. Otherwise how could I be speaking to you now? How could I even answer you?"

Prabhupāda: But that, speaking and barking, is the same thing. The dog is also barking. Where is the difference? He is speaking in a different language, that's all. So does it mean the dog has got brain? The dog is barking, and you are speaking. What is the difference?

Ādi-keśava: They say, "We have art. We have science."

Prabhupāda: Whatever you may have, but you cannot answer the ultimate question. They have got also science, art. A dog can understand that a foreigner is coming, and he begins to bark, "Yow! Yow! Yow!" and the master understands that somebody unknown is coming. You have got that science, that from mile or some, some distant place you can understand that some unknown person is coming. But dog can understand. He has got this art. He is better intelligent than you. Everyone has got some particular. That does not mean there is brain. Brain means to understand the problem of life. That is brain.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, but you do not know what is important. Science... I understand science is very important. And the Professor Einstein, a great scientist, as soon as the active principle is gone, you kick on the face and he is not seeing. So which is important, the face of Mr. Einstein or the active principle within that? Have you got any information? Then where is your brain?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The different scriptures like the Bible say that there is a soul.

Prabhupāda: Don't bring now scripture. We are talking in common language, common sense, that within... You cannot understand it. Therefore where is your brain? The dog also cannot understand. He's simply identifying with this body, and you also doing that. So where is your brain? Man is rational animal. Where is your rationality? If (you) avoid rationality, you are as good as dog. Where is your brain? Argue on this point. Dog... If one big dog thinking, "I am greyhound " or "this big body I am..." The lion also thinking, "I am so powerful. I am this body." So I am also thinking like that: "I am American, very rich." But both of them—no understanding that how you are powerful, why you are powerful, what is that active principle. Then where is your brain? Why man is important than the animal? It is common sense. So it is not brainwashing, but it is giving brain, this movement. They have no brain at all. So argue on this point. Our challenge is that "You have no brain. Where is the question of brainwash? You cannot understand the simple thing, which is important."

Prabhupāda: Apart from that, first of all you have to distinguish that what is important. The active principle within the body that is working, that is important? Or the superficial body structure is important?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that there is no difference.

Prabhupāda: There is difference, and therefore you have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The body itself is active, not that there is something in the body making it active. The blood, the brains—this is part of the body.

Prabhupāda: Then what is the position of this body? Active... Just like this table is not active.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It has no brain. No mind.

Prabhupāda: So then we have to accept that the body has got mind in the body. So that is material or something else?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Material.

Prabhupāda: Material. Then why don't you replace it? Replace it. Material things can be replaced. Just like motor stops, so you go to the gas house and repair. You cannot do it?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are duplicating. We're duplicating the situation.

Prabhupāda: This is the proof. Now, if the real active principle has left, the brain has left, the mind has left—it is only a lump. You cannot understand. If you understand it, then replace it. If you cannot, then you have no brain. You have to prove that, that "You have no brain at all. Where is the question of brainwashing?"

Hari-śauri: But if we operate on a person's brain, actual brain substance, it affects his personality. So therefore the personality in the brain is the same.

Prabhupāda: Whatever you know, you give this man brain, mind, and again let him get up and work. I want this.

Ādi-keśava: Again they'll say that's still beyond their knowledge.

Prabhupāda: "Then you have no brain," say. My point is that you have no brain. As soon as you say "beyond my...," then that means you have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But that means just that our brain is not as good as it could be. It doesn't mean we have no...

Prabhupāda: That means you have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like a child has a brain but is not very intelligent, so we have brains...

Prabhupāda: Brain means intelligent. Brain does not mean dull-headed. This man has brain, then he's intelligent. Proof is he has got intelligence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By brain, you mean intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: Otherwise you could say the dog has intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: The dog has a brain.

Prabhupāda: The dog has also brain: "Where there is food? Where there is sex?" He has got brain. Not that brain. That brain, everyone has got. Even a small fly, it has got. So think over like that and place very intelligently in the court. The... Prove that "You have no brain at all. This movement is giving, brain-giving. Not brainwashing." You have to prove. Not brainwashing but brain-giving.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can say it from our own realization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Dhīras tatra na muhyati. Then one who has got brain, he immediately understands. But you have no brain. We have to make you understand in so many ways, still you do not understand. So where is your brain? Anyone has brain, he will understand that when I say that "This man is dead," something has gone out of his body. Anyone can understand.

Hari-śauri: You say you do know what that thing is, so why don't you produce it...

Prabhupāda: Yes, I know, but I say it cannot be replaced. I know it. And you are rascal. You say, "It can be replaced. We are trying, after millions of years..." Therefore you have no brain. We say it cannot be produced. It is gone. It has accepted another body. We say like that. We don't say that it can be brought again and then replaced. We don't say that. Therefore we have got a brain. You have no brain. Just like motorcar stops. The driver has gone to another. And if a rascal finds out how it can be run without that driver, then he has no brain. And one who has brain—"Here the driver has gone. Now it cannot be run"—that is brain. You falsely trying. Driver has gone out, and you are trying to run on the car by putting petrol, by putting grease, by utilizing... That means you have no brain. Uselessly you are trying. That means you have no brain. I have got brain. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How will your movement give anybody brains?

Prabhupāda: As other things are giving brain. Just like a dull, a dull child is educated and he passes M.A. examination. He becomes very intelligent person by education. This is their education. Even if you have no brain, I can give you brain. So it is not brainwashing; it is brain-giving. But because you are rascal, you'll not accept.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Ādi-keśava: So those people who may not want to hear that they are not...

Prabhupāda: That is another thing, rascal. A dog will not hear, that does not mean he has brain or he has intelligence.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the proof he's a dog. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: That he's a dog. We are not going to give any credit to the dogs and cats. So you have to fight like this. Think over. There are different brain. Just like in Chicago I said...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Woman's brain.

Prabhupāda: Woman's brain and man's brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Half the size.

Prabhupāda: That is the... That difference is intelligence.

Tripurāri: Envious. Just envious. (break)

Prabhupāda: Why he said dhīra, sober, cool-headed? These rascals are cats and dogs. They are not civilized, even big, big professors, they say, "Swami, after finishing this body, everything is finished." Has he got brain? And they're Communist leader. Identifying with this body. This is the actual platform of that body, dehātma-buddhiḥ. And they're described in the śāstra as no better than the asses. So next point will be that where you think beyond your capacity, we begin our education from there, seeing the... Our education begins from that. First of all try to understand what is spirit. Then it will... And our whole process is how to transfer one person from the material platform to the spiritual. Therefore they are thinking "brainwash." The fools, they cannot understand where our education begins. Where they have failed, we begin from there. Where they are disappointed, that "This cannot be answered," so on, we begin from there. So who is intelligent? We are intelligent or they are? We are trying to bring man from this gross misunderstanding, misidentification platform, to come to the spiritual platform. Then he understands what is the spiritual kingdom, the spiritual life that is eternal, blissful. Then he will understand. And that is all new to these dull-headed rascals. And they are thinking... It is the same, different subject matter.

Prabhupāda: So everyone can say by force to do something is good.

Ādi-keśava: They say that "You don't know your own choice. You have lost your memory of what is real choice."

Prabhupāda: So the people will accept this is choice? By force?

Brahmānanda: Well, they feel that this is what the parents want, so the parents are justified in doing this to their children. The parent has the right to dictate what should be the choice of the child.

Prabhupāda: How long?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unlimitedly. No age limit. They ask, "Supposing your child is fifty years old." The mother said, "It doesn't matter how old. Even fifty years old. If they have lost their brains from this brainwashing, then..."

Prabhupāda: But is that the law of the country?

Hari-śauri: It's amusement.

Prabhupāda: But they unnecessarily spending money. So they have spent unnecessarily for the moon expedition. Money, if you do not know, you'll spend it for unnecessary purpose. That is they are doing. So give them brain, and this money can be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have got money. Why they are trying to manufacture artificial intelligence? What is the purpose?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They want to be able to imitate God.

Prabhupāda: Then God is there. (laughs) You have to accept. If you want to imitate God, then God is there. That is our propaganda, not his.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If they say artificial intelligence, it means that there is a real intelligence. And if they're trying to make artificial intelligence, someone must have made real intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Real intelligence you see in the flower. How intelligently colorful it is made. Every nature study. Study this machine, how intelligent. And just the hand, coming up, this finger, because we have to capture something, the nail is required. If it would have been all skin, you could not capture. How... And every machine is coming automatically. You study your body. And if the same machine, you producing a machine like that, automatically coming out, one thing, male machine, one female machine, and they'll bring another machine. Where is that? And here God has made such a nice machine. He says, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni (BG 18.61). That is also not made by God. It is made by God's agent, māyā. Now, see how God is intelligent. God's servant māyā, God says, "Give him a machine like that." Immediately she gives, supplies. Clearly says, bhrāmayan sar... "He wants to still travel in this material world, bhrāmayan. He wants to go there. Then all right, give him a machine." He's so kind. He's sitting within your heart. You want to do something. And He's so kind, because you are son, beloved, He says, "These are not required. Better come back. Live peacefully." You'll not hear. "No. I..." Just like naughty child. "All right, Māyā, give him. Give him." This is meaning.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very outspoken. Outspoken.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. "You are all rascals. Prepare a machine... This is machine, Bhagavad-gītā. Prepare a machine. Make a female machine and male machine and produce innumerable machine. Then we shall understand that you have got brain." And actually you are seeing. How is that? A male machine and female machine combine together—another machine.

Satsvarūpa: They have some machines that have better memories, that can do things that human mind can't do.

Prabhupāda: Again you... Again we... How is that?

Satsvarūpa: They could challenge that nature's machine is very wonderful, but they can make a machine out of metal and electronics...

Prabhupāda: "They can make."

Prabhupāda: What is that better memory?

Satsvarūpa: Even a calculator can immediately multiply some...

Prabhupāda: But calculator machine, another man is working, so where is brain, calculating? The machine is made by another man, and it is being worked by another man, so where is the brain in the calculator? That is... So you are misled immediately. Bluff.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Word jugglery. Simply a word jugglery.

Prabhupāda: That's all. Yes. What is the value of that? The machine is made by another brain, and it is being worked over by another brain. And who has made that brain who has made the machine? That is māyā. Then ultimately you have to come to māyā. And who is giving direction? Big brain, Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). He is making machine—carācaram. Yasyājñayā... Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā (Bs. 5.44). Māyā is Durgā, the superintending deity of this whole, whole universe. And she is Durgā, therefore called. "Very difficult." Duḥ-gā. You can approach her very, with difficulty. Duḥ. Duḥ means duḥkha.. You cannot understand even Durgā, so what to speak of the Supreme Person who is giving directions to this...? Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya... (Bs. 5.44), chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā. She has no independent intelligence. She is working like chāya. Just like here, chāya. This is moving; this is moving.

Brahmānanda: It's not a defense. It's a offense. You're not defending; you're making an attack. You're not apologizing that "We're not brainwashing." We're saying, "You don't have a brain to begin with."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is wash? (Bengali) In Bengali there is one word. In Bengal it is (indistinct), to keep the head on the northern side.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Keep the...

Prabhupāda: Head lying. No. "Keeping the head northern side." (Bengali) So if one man was asked that "Don't keep your head on the northern side," he says, "I have no head. Where is the question of uttara dike?" (Bengali) So first of all prove that you have got brain; then the question of brainwash... You have no brain. You are all dull stone. Where is the question of brainwashing? Prove them. This is very nice. Humorous, at the same time very nice. People will observe. Prove that they have no brain.

Prabhupāda: Hmh? Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Of course, the thing is, though, when we say things like this, they take it that it is so absurd that they don't even take it seriously. When you make a statement that "You have no brains," when you say that to a so-called learned man...

Prabhupāda: No, where is brain? "Show. You are manufacturing so many machines." Challenge this, "Where is this machine?"

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Their conception of what intelligence is is completely different than our conception.

Prabhupāda: And that means they have no brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They would argue...

Prabhupāda: Just like a child's conception is different from the father. That means he has not developed the brain. That is only answer.

Prabhupāda: So then... They may not accept, but the fact is there. You can challenge this, that body's machine. Apart from what is the energy that is moving the machine, but it is machine, we accept. So you prepare a machine like that. Where is that machine?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They'll say that "You also cannot."

Prabhupāda: I do not say that we are very good brain. We are servant of God. We have nothing to show, any brain. Our brain will be shown by our master. Our position is God. So we are not very much anxious to show our... But you are godless rascals. You want to show your brain. Show me machine. We have all accepted that supreme brain is Kṛṣṇa and we are servant. That is our position. We don't say that "Independent. There is no God." We don't. You say that. We are working under superior brain. So the case has to be proved by you, not by us. What is called, onus? What is that, onus?

Brahmānanda: Burden of proof.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your duty, not us. You have to prove it. (break) And now don't go to the court with any other dress. Preach like this. Preach there with this dress. Have they any objection with this dress?

Hari-śauri: In this dress.

Prabhupāda: All tell, "You have no brain. So where is the question of brainwash?" That you have to prove, that "You have no brain. You are all dull-headed, animals." This is our challenge. "And animals cannot... Their brain cannot be washed, but washed, I have brain, yes... Because a human being, we have tried. At the present you have no brain. All useless."

Hari-śauri: But, you say, by presenting this to the court, then they'll have to prove or they'll have to try and disprove or establish that they have a brain, and then the whole thing come out, what is actual intelligence and what is simply cat-and-dog intelligence.

Pradyumna: Then we say also ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). We say "washing."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is brainwashing, yes. It is required. But at the present moment you have no brain. You have got stool in your head. So it has to be washed. What is the wrong there? If you give, "machine." You say "machine," we say it, "machine," this body. This body is a machine. You also accept; I also accept. But you, can you produce a machine like that? If the person who has made the machine, He has got brain, you have no brain. And that is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). This is cara, moving machine, and there is standing machine. Just like tree, that is also a machine.

Pradyumna: Like?

Prabhupāda: Tree. It is standing machine. It is collecting water from the root of the tree throughout the tree. Can you make machine, coconut tree, collecting water and supplying the top fruit? Where is that machine? It is a machine. So what brain you have got?

Hari-śauri: Chicken brain.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Hari-śauri: Chicken brain.

Prabhupāda: You cannot do that also.

Hari-śauri: (laughs) No. Their brain is like that.

Prabhupāda: They have no brain.

Hari-śauri: You said in Washington that they will have to give their doctorates and degrees to the chickens...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: ...because the chickens are better than them.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: They can produce life in a few days.

Pradyumna: And if they say that "Yes, we have a brain. We use it... We make very nice civilization..."

Prabhupāda: What is that civilization?

Pradyumna: Then we say they're animal.

Prabhupāda: Animal civilization—eating, sleeping...

Pradyumna: Eating, sleeping, mating.

Prabhupāda: That's all. This civilization is there in the cats and dogs. Civilization is that when there is something more than the cats and dogs. What you have got? That is brain. How to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life—the dog has got such brain. Even that... You cannot produce a machine like the dog also. Can you make a machine like the dog? Then where is your brain?

Hari-śauri: They can't even produce the simplest single-celled living entity...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. With pilot the body is there. And he knows the art, how to bite you instantly. He immediately injects his, that little fiber within the hole of the hair. Immediately

Pradyumna: Oh, that's how they do it. When there's a hair hole? They put it there.

Prabhupāda: Immediately. And the warning: "I have come." (makes sound like flying mosquito) "Hnn nn nn." Where is that brain? The mosquito has so nice brain that he gives you warning that "I have come to bite you. If you like, you can save yourself." And he goes and immediately bites, and immediately the business is finished. A mosquito has such a nice brain. Who has made this brain?

Pradyumna: I was just remembering that verse, sattvaṁ śuddhyed yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam (SB 5.5.1). They will fight to the... They will say, "Yes, you are washing the brain." Sattvaṁ śuddhyet.

Prabhupāda: Washing is required because you have no brain. Instead of brain, you have got some stool. So therefore it requires washing. Washing is required because you have no brain.

Pradyumna: It is covered by ignorance.

Prabhupāda: It is covered by the stool, so it requires washing.

Pradyumna: Malam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)