Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. (indistinct) civilized activity is going on on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). (indistinct) everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs, they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely, but they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies, and pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. Everywhere we go, material... These people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. Therefore, Bhagavad-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.
BG 13.08-12 amanitvam adambhitvam... cited (Con & Let)
Expressions researched:
"acaryopasanam saucam"
|"ahimsa ksantir arjavam"
|"amanitvam adambhitvam"
|"asaktir anabhisvangah"
|"bhaktir avyabhicarini"
|"constant and unalloyed devotion to Me"
|"duhkha-dosanudarsanam"
|"freedom from entanglement with children, wife, home and the rest"
|"indriyarthesu vairagyam"
|"janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi"
|"janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi"
|"mayi cananya-yogena"
|"putra-dara-grhadisu"
|"renunciation of the objects of sense gratification"
|"the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Dr. Singh: We are not fulfilling our true dharma.
Prabhupāda: If this finger does not satisfy my body... Suppose I want to scratch here, a finger is doing it. If it cannot do it, that means it is diseased. So anyone who is not satisfying Kṛṣṇa, he is diseased condition. That is material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Material life means full of misery. And when misery comes? When one is diseased.
Dr. Singh: Is it possible, Swamiji, that Kṛṣṇa may like to be satisfied through the material life?
Prabhupāda: Well, provided it is done for Him. Just like Arjuna, fighting. Fighting, if you take..., just like nowadays fighting is going on, that is material. But the same fighting done for Kṛṣṇa is spiritual.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Huh? Well, you can give me some medicine, and for the time being I am cured, then again I fall diseased. You cannot stop disease. Suppose you have got a very nice coat. That's all right. But one who has got not so nice coat, so what is the difference?
Devotee: Coat.
Prabhupāda: Coat, yes. So this so-called scientific improvement, nice medicine, nice medicine or not nice medicine, what is the difference? I fall..., I become diseased. You cannot stop disease. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You may think that "I have overcome so many distresses," but real distress is birth, death, old age and disease. What you have done for that?
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Deha means body. Apatya means children. Dehāpatya-kalatra. Kalatra means wife. Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣu. He thinks: "They are my soldiers. I'll fight with nature, struggle for existence. And they'll save me." Dehāpatya-kalatrādiṣv ātma-sainyeṣv asatsv api. Although he knows that they'll not exist, still he's so mad, teṣāṁ pramatto nidhanam, he knows I'll not exist, the soldiers will not be able to help me. paśyann api na paśyati, he sees and still he does not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. He knows by practical experience that "This society, friendship, love, nation, nobody can save me." But still he thinks that "They'll save me." Just like when you, in the aeroplane, there may be thousands of aeroplanes, others, but when your aeroplane is in danger, nobody can save you. You have to save yourself, Otherwise, you go to hell. Similarly, we have to save ourself individually by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What this material advancement will save me? Will the material advancement of knowledge can save anyone from death? Is it possible? Real problem, duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, real problem is birth, death, old age and disease. So what this material advancement of science will help in this connection? They'll bluff: "Yes, in the future, we shall do." That's all. Bluffing.
Prabhupāda: If one becomes perfectly a devotee of the Lord, all the good qualities of demigods manifest automatically. The hospitality is also a good quality. So out of many good qualities, this is one of them. So these devotees, they are automatically well-behaving to the guests, newcomers on account of their advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because a Kṛṣṇa conscious person takes everyone, not only human being, but even animals, insects, trees, birds, beasts, everyone, living entities, as part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. So it is their duty to behave well with all living entities. Not only the human beings, but also even with the animals. Ahiṁsā. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). The ahiṁsā preached by Lord Buddha, that is also one of the qualifications of devotee. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. So we are preaching... Every religion preaches, but people do not follow. The Christian religion also preaches ahiṁsā: "Thou shall not kill," but they do not follow.
Guest (1): Some devotees want the body again and again...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee... Because people want perfection. But their perfection is to serve Kṛṣṇa. Their perfection is not to stop this body. But the... Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he's not living in this material world. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Anyone who's engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he's transcendental to these material qualities. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54). (break) ...and then, after leaving this body, you are not going to accept any material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, you are under pains and pleasure. No pleasure, simply pains. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying to avoid pains. But it is not possible. The real pain, birth, death, old age and disease, that remains. What is the use of temporary getting some so-called pleasure?
Brahmānanda: At MIT. At other colleges I was present.
Prabhupāda: So that very time so I first of all asked the students, "Where is your technological department to find out the thing when a man is dead, and you replace it?" These were my subject matter. I talked. A man is working. (Aside:) come on. A man is working. All of a sudden he stops to work. So a motor car is working. All of a sudden it stops. So there are technologists who can repair the car and it will again start. That is technology. Now the man is working, stopped. So where is that technology to make it move again. That was... I spoke on this. So they very much appreciated. After my lecture they gathered round me. You remember that? No.
Gargamuni: I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: So actually, in this, at the present moment, they have invented so many technology, but this technology is missing. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Nobody wants to die. And where is that technology, to stop death? What so you think? You are financing many technological institutions, businesses. Why don't you finance an institution which is giving instruction how to stop death?
Prabhupāda: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). Come forward. (break) ...technology, although it is a problem. But we can supply this technology, to solve this problem. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām... Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. (break) ...modern technologist, scientists, they do not know what is the perfection of life. Now, they are thinking that having a big building, possessing big building, and possessing a few cars and nice bank balance, that is perfection of life. But suppose you get a very nice home, very nice big bank balance, and other amenities. But there is every possibility that as soon as you prepare all these things, you have to go away immediately, death. There is no guarantee that "After finishing this job, I shall be able to enjoy these things." At any moment you can be asked, "Get out." So this labor, so much labor for creating nice residential quarters, bank balance, and others, that is my futile labor because I could not enjoy it. Therefore this is not perfection of life.
Śrutakīrti: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place, but one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again."
Prabhupāda: So as soon as you have to take birth, you have to die. Just like Aurobindo took birth; he died. Everyone. Everyone, even Brahmā. It may be a long duration or a small duration. That doesn't matter. Everyone. That is the perfectional knowledge, how to solve this birth and death problem. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). As soon as we are under these clutches of birth and death, old age and disease, we are imperfect. We are imperfect. Whatever I may be, you may be, but if I am subjected to birth, death, old age and disease, then I am imperfect. Therefore the perfectional, perfection of life is when you haven't got to take birth or die or become diseased and old. That is perfection.
Prabhupāda: ...gatvā duḥkhānusaṅgaminaḥ. There is misery. Even you go to the Moon planet... This is Bhāgavata. Before going to your Moon planet here is the information: "Anywhere you go rascal these things will follow, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9) and inconveniences. You'll have to suffer." So one's who's, one who is intelligent, then: "Where shall I find real happiness?" That is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore one requires to be very, very intelligent to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is what they do by heart transplant.
Prabhupāda: This is all nonsense. Stop death; then it is an achievement. That's all. Stop disease, that is achievement. But that you cannot do. What is the profit reducing, and increasing or decreasing?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. I am saying therefore, disease, not "This disease" or "That disease." Disease mean any kind of disease. That is credit. That is credit. If you guarantee that "Here is a chemical composition; when a man takes it, no more disease," that is credit. But you cannot do that. Then where is your credit? You simply struggle. The struggle we increase. That's all. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We shall come down? The water is coming or...?
Karandhara: Looks like the water is coming up, Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The waves are very big.
Prabhupāda: Now, such a huge quantity of coloring, wherefrom coming, red color? And it will disappear after few minutes. Have you got any control over it, scientist?
Prabhupāda: A Vaiṣṇava's first qualification that he's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Vaiṣṇava cannot be unhappy. That Prahlāda Mahārāja says, that "I have no problem. I am unhappy seeing these people who are simply engaged in false activities and they do not care for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore I am unhappy." This is Vaiṣṇava's qualification. Not that "I am saved. That's all right." That is materialism. "Let others go to hell. I am saved." That is materialism. A Vaiṣṇava should think always, "Oh, so many people are suffering. What I am doing for them?" That is Vaiṣṇava. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is also said by scientists. They also say that "People are suffering. So we are trying to make them happy."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you do not know, how you'll make them happy? You'll create havoc.
Yaśomatīnandana: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9).
Prabhupāda: Yes, you do not know how to make them happy. First of all learn how to make them happy. You cannot manufacture your program to make them happy. That everyone is doing. But the more they are acting, the world becoming in chaotic condition. You know what is the standard of happiness, how to make them happy; then you can work. If a medical man, he has never seen a medical college and if he wants to treat patient, what is this?
Hṛdayānanda: Well, then they will say that everyone... The Christians would say that they're on the top step, and the Buddhists say they're on the top step.
Prabhupāda: No, they may say, but if Kṛṣṇa is God, what He says, that we'll have to accept, what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa says, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat: (BG 7.7) "There is no more superior than Me." That you have to accept. Everyone will say, "I am very good." But is that the fact, that everyone is very good? There is comparative, superlative degrees. Just like shopkeepers, they say, "All my goods are good." They are competition. One has to judge. That comparative study... What the highest Buddha philosophy? Ahiṁsā. Ahiṁsā, nonviolence. That is our preliminary study. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). There are many other things after ahiṁsā. They do not know this.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the twenties there was a doctor in Switzerland, Couet(?), who had the same method. "I'm better and better every day," and he had thousands of people who came there and nothing was heard of him ten years later.
Bali Mardana: Till he died.
Prabhupāda: "Better, better, better, I am going to die better very soon." (laughter) Therefore Kṛṣṇa has shown that "Why you are thinking, 'better,' the death is before you." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9), that is real knowledge. Real knowledge means, "How I am better?" The death is there. (break) That is real knowledge. I am going to die, I cannot stop it. You see. That is real knowledge. And if somebody thinks that I am better, although I am going to die, then he's a foolish. Better means you stop your death.
Prabhupāda: Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Chandobhai: That is Sāṅkhya philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Etat kṣetraṁ samāsena sa-vikāram... Now, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir... (BG 13.8). (break)
Prabhupāda: ...That is the first thing, ācāryopāsanam. But these rascals, they do not do that. They have no ācārya; still, they, write comment on Bhagavad-gītā. You see? This is the rascaldom. Ācāryopāsanam. One must go... Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Unless one accepts ācārya, he does not know anything.
Dr. Patel: And then amānitvam adambhitvam...
Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand one word please. One word, if you understand, your life will be successful. Don't go further. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the very important thing.
Dr. Patel: Śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Again I read, eh?
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ... (BG 13.8).
Prabhupāda: So amānitvam. Instead of becoming amānitvam, these Māyāvādīs say, "I am God." Just see. This is amānitvam. He falsely claims that "I have become God now." Does it mean amānitvam? And here, Vaiṣṇava says, gopī-bhartuḥ pāda-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). This is amānitvam. This is amān... "I am servant of the servant." And these rascals are claiming, "I am God." This is amānitvam.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā, kṣānti. Kṣānti means toleration. Toleration. But...
Dr. Patel: Ārjavam.
Prabhupāda: They, they do not allow Kṛṣṇa to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore there is no kṣānti, no toleration.
Dr. Patel: Ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Śaucam sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ, indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam...
Prabhupāda: Śaucam. Śaucam... Śaucam means yaḥ smaret puṇḍarīkākṣaṁ sa bāhyābhyantaram śuciḥ. Because he does not know what is puṇḍarīkākṣam, he does not chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's not śaucam. This is śaucam.
Dr. Patel: Ātma-vinigrahaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Ātma-vinigrahaḥ. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam anahaṅkāram eva ca.
Prabhupāda: Anahan... This is the first-class ahaṅkāra, that "I have become God."
Dr. Patel: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9).
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Asaktir ana... (break) ...putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu, nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam...
Prabhupāda: So they have no, mean, detachment for putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. They talk very big, big words, but attached to the putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. (laughs) This is not knowledge. This is ignorance. The test is there, whether you have become detached from putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. If not, you are in ignorance. You may talk very, very, big, big words. That has no meaning. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu, mayi cānanya-yogena...
Prabhupāda: Ah! Again the same thing. The basic principle is mayi cānanya-yogena bhakti-yogena...
Dr. Patel: Bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī vivikta-deśa-sevitvam... (BG 13.11).
Prabhupāda: This is, this is the basic principle. Without this, everything is false. Everything is false.
Prabhupāda: You become... I am explaining. You become entangled. Now, as soon as you become entangled... Suppose you become a dog. Now you suffer.
Dr. Patel: But when the dog is there, he does not think he's suffering. He's just like that pig.
Prabhupāda: That is illusion. That is called moha, moha. One is suffering. Everyone is suffering. Suppose a big man, a minister, or the prime minister, or the chief minister, he's also suffering. But he's thinking, "Now I am prime minister." That is illusion. Nobody, nobody is here peaceful. Everyone is suffering. Because threefold miseries. That is the conditional life. And after all, Kṛṣṇa says that "If you are thinking that you are very happy, that you must know at least these things: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9)." How you can get out of it? You'll die. Nobody wants to die.
Mr. Sar: Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām āśritya yatanti ye, te brahma...
Prabhupāda: Now, here, here the real problem is jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). They do not know that. Real, real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mūḍha na abhijānanti, mūḍha māṁ nābhijānanti.
Prabhupāda: Death means forgetting. So because Kṛṣṇa is giving perfect knowledge of past, future and present, therefore it is to be understood that He has got eternal body. And eternal body means there is no misery. Misery means janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), to take birth, to die... (aside:) (Hare Kṛṣṇa.) And to suffer from disease, to suffer from old age. These are the miseries. So because Kṛṣṇa hasn't got this temporary body, therefore He is not suffering from these things. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, you will see always, young man. You will never see Kṛṣṇa's picture as old man, because He is eternal body. This is the conclusion.
Italian Man (1): In our heart.
Prabhupāda: No, no, heart or not heart. Your heart or not heart, but Kṛṣṇa's position is like that. He has got eternal body. He is blissful, because there is no miseries. Temporary body means there is misery, so many miseries. At least these four miseries, birth, death, old age and disease.
Prabhupāda: This human life is especially meant for solving all the problems of live. There are so many problems of life, but the four problems, as indicated in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam... (BG 13.9). People have no knowledge how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. Because every living entity is eternal. That we learn from Bhagavad-gītā. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The living entity does not die even after the annihilation of this gross body. This is the first knowledge to understand. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We have to transmigrate from this body to another body. As I have transmigrated already from my childhood body to boyhood body, boyhood body to youth-hood body, now I am in a body very old, so similarly, as I am existing in spite of changing so many types of body, similarly, after changing this body, I will have to accept another body. This is the fact. But the modern education, they do not know it, neither they believe, even the practical example is there. And who is giving the example? The most authoritative Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And there are so many different varieties of bodies.
Prabhupāda: Whole attempt is to be out of miserable condition. Just like medicine. What is the medicine? Medicine means an attempt to get out of the miserable condition of disease. But you cannot stop disease. You may discover very improved method of medical treatment, but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. You can, I mean to say, discover many means to stop death—that is going on—but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. So in this way... And the Bhagavad-gītā says that you might be very advanced in civilization and scientific knowledge to make improvement, the condition of life, but you cannot make solution of these things, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot counteract these things. Still you have to...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That in two thousand years they are going to make...
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he'll not live for two thousand years. Then the bluff cannot be shown. Violation is not possible, sir. That is not possible. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You are trying to violate, but here are the four principles. It is not possible. You cannot violate. There is death; you cannot violate this. As soon as the time will come, you must die. Finished, all your scientific research. Four millions, trillions, and you can say, at that time there was no civilized man. At that time man was dying and animal was dying. And at this time man is dying and animal is dying. So what improvement you have made? There is no improvement.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, existing, but why you are in change? That is the question. "I am existing," that we say, but we are trying to solve the problem of changing. But this changing is not very happy, to die and again accept another body and remain to, in the womb of the mother to develop that body in an airtight condition. So why these foolish persons do not take it as very miserable? And with the risk of being killed by the mother. Nowadays their abortion and killing. So is it very nice life, that you die and you enter into the mother's womb to develop another body? And that also not secure. Is that very nice life? (break) Write many articles on this subject matter and prove them that "You are all fools." (break) ...major problem, they have left aside.
Bahulāśva: The main problem.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. And Kṛṣṇa says, therefore, "These are your real problems: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are intelligent, then you should keep always in your front these problems."
Bahulāśva: They think that we're avoiding the real problems.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bahulāśva: They think that we're avoiding the real problems because we're not doing business.
Prabhupāda: We are not doing business? We are doing the best business. You are working hard day and night, and without working, we are living comfortably. They cannot dream of. (break) ...is their envy, that "These people, without doing anything they are living so comfortably. And we are working so hard day and night."
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, athāto brahma jijñāsā. So you are all learned scholars. You join this movement and help us. To keep people in darkness, that is not advancement of education. And education does not mean how to find out a fish expertly. That is being done by the birds. Education means to solve the problem of life. And what is the real problem? Birth, death, old age, and disease. That is real problem. So where is the remedy for this birth, death, old age, and disease? That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are trying, our struggle for existence means we are trying to mitigate how to avoid distress. We want happiness. And Kṛṣṇa presents that "Here is your distress, that you have to die. What you have done for this? Here is your real distress. You might have taken your birth in rich American nationality or might have very good skyscraper building and very, very, nice motor cars. But you will be kicked out at any moment, sir. What you have done for this, that you will be insured for all this enjoyment. Where is that insurance? You are so busy in these affairs, but where is your insurance that you will be allowed to enjoy this?" This is intelligence. You will be kicked out at any moment. Then all your labor is spoiled. And therefore Kṛṣṇa presents this problem first, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. We are looking after happiness, but we must find out where is permanent happiness. That is intelligence, not that I create a circumstance where I am happy for some years and then kicked out. Why don't you touch this problem first? Then you are scientist, then you are philosopher.
Prabhupāda: They are trying to dominate the material nature, the so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). The domination is manifest by four things: birth, death, old age, and disease. I cannot dominate my birth, death, old age, and disease and I am trying to dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die? Why he could not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death comes can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you must die immediately.
Prabhupāda: This material nature is not eternal. It is manifested or created, and again it is dissolved or annihilated. But beyond this material nature, there is another nature. There are also innumerable planets. They are known as Vaikuṇṭha planets or Vṛndāvana planets. That is the kingdom of God. If we transfer ourself to that eternal nature, then we won't have to come back to this material nature again. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Anyone who goes to that eternal nature, he hasn't got to come back again to this material nature. The material nature has been explained as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Material nature is full of miserable condition. And the most miserable condition is explained as janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: (BG 13.9) birth, death, old age and disease. So we living entities, we are eternal, part and parcel of God. God is eternal and we are also eternal. Just like gold and little portion of gold. Both of them are gold, but the big gold and the small gold, that is different. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, qualitatively we are one; quantitatively we are different. Although we are different, still, in the spiritual world we can enjoy the same facilities in cooperation with God. We are trying to be happy in this material world. That is not possible.
Dharmādhyakṣa: They cannot solve because they have the same problems.
Prabhupāda: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duḥkha-nivṛtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.
Paramahaṁsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.
Prabhupāda: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. (break) ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. (break) ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Kṛṣṇa puts it: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These people are so stupid, it is very difficult to preach to them.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That will be...
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dhīra Kṛṣṇa: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here.
Prabhupāda: You think you will not die?
Bahulāśva: So one must become convinced philosophically.
Prabhupāda: Why philosophically? Philosophy means, at the present moment, mental concoction. We don't say that. Philosophy means to find out the reality. That is philosophy, not that "I think like this. He thinks like this. He thinks like this." That is not philosophy; that is mental concoction, hovering over the mental plane. Philosophy is here. Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam: (BG 13.9) "Keep always in your front that there is death, there is birth, and try to save yourself from this." This is philosophy. What is this hot air?
Bahulāśva: It is coming from the heating system of the university. They have a nuclear heating system.
Paramahaṁsa: Is that nuclear waste?
Bahulāśva: Yes. They have a reactor on the campus. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...they require so many scientist to get heat from the nuclear system, then who has created the sun to diffuse so much heat? How great scientist He is. They have no sense that who has created the sun's nuclear system, that heating the whole universe.
Prabhupāda: Because whatever you do, death will come and take it. So where is guarantee that you will enjoy?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Relatively we can enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Relatively everyone... The ant also thinking, "I am also some important..." That is Kṛṣṇa's proposal, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). You are trying to get out of all kinds of miserable conditions, but here is your real misery, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: birth, death, old age... First of all conquer them. Then talk of advance. You cannot conquer even on disease. There are so many persons suffering from disease. You cannot stop it, and you're making progress? What is that progress? It is all rascaldom.
Devotee (4): They're also trying to establish a beach like that here in Laguna Beach also, Prabhupāda, a nude beach.
Prabhupāda: So without God consciousness, when there is no cloth, then economic development, and when... (break) Refer these verses from Bhagavad-gītā: amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam... (aside:) Little water.
Satsvarūpa:
- amānitvam adambhitvam
- ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam
- ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ
- sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ
- (BG 13.8)
Prabhupāda: Go on.
Satsvarūpa:
- indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam
- anahaṅkāra eva ca
- janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi
- duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam
- aśaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ
- putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu
- nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam
- iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu
- mayi cānanya-yogena
- bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī
- vivikta-deśa-sevitvam
- aratir jana-saṁsadi
- adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ
- tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam
- etaj jñānam iti proktam
- ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā
- (Bg. 13.8-12)
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. Etaj jñānam. The items prescribed by Kṛṣṇa, that is knowledge. And everything is no knowledge. Translation, you read.
Satsvarūpa: "Humility, pridelessness, nonviolence, tolerance, simplicity, approaching a bona fide spiritual master, cleanliness, steadiness and self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification, absence of false ego, the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; nonattachment to children, wife, home and the rest, and evenmindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me, resorting to solitary places, detachment from the general mass of people, accepting the importance of self-realization, and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth—all these I thus declare to be knowledge,..."
Prabhupāda: This is knowledge, path of knowledge.
Satsvarūpa: "... and what is contrary to these is ignorance."
Prabhupāda: That's it. There are eighteen or twenty items of knowledge. The human society is not interested with those eighteen items, and they are simply interested in so-called economic development, technology, mental speculation. That is ignorance. That is not knowledge. They do not know what is knowledge. Just like the first item is... What is that? Amānitvam.
Satsvarūpa: Humility.
Prabhupāda: Humility. So who is teaching? Where is the school teaching humility? This is the first item. Then? Next?
Satsvarūpa: Adambhitvam, pridelessness.
Prabhupāda: Pridelessness. Everyone is proud. Then?
Satsvarūpa: Ahiṁsā, nonviolence.
Prabhupāda: Nonviolence. These are the first three steps toward the path of knowledge, and who is practicing this? Nobody is practicing.
Prabhupāda: ...man is convinced, then our printing of books shall be success. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3).
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have thousands of people convinced. (break)
Prabhupāda: Ācāryopāsanam. In the Bhagavad-gītā: "One should worship ācārya." This is the beginning of spiritual life. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. These are the injunction. Without taking shelter of ācārya, nobody can understand anything. (break)...wants prasāda, it is not given?
Akṣayānanda: Yes. Given.
Prabhupāda: Not given.
Prabhupāda: Ha. (break) ... putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva. Our existentional position should be purified. How? Tapo, by tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva (SB 5.5.1). "And we are enjoying life. Why we should undergo tapasya?" And you are enjoying, but you are not enjoying; you are suffering. Even if you think you are enjoying, there are so many sufferings. That the foolish people, they do not know. Just like a healthy man, he thinks, "I am enjoying," but he does not see that even he is now healthy, he will be an old man, he will be attacked with disease, he will die, and still he thinks, "I am healthy." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Therefore the intelligent man will see that "Where is my enjoyment if I am going to die? I don't want to die, but I am going to die." That is sure, as sure as anything. And still the rascal will think that "I am happy." He will become old man, he will be attacked with disease, and still he is thinking that he is happy. Apart from this, there are so many other sufferings, but he thinks that he is happy. And that happiness is centered around sex. That's all. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Their only happiness is sex. Therefore in the Western countries they are simply trying to increase the sex enjoyment. That's all. Is it not?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The whole civilization is based on how to enjoy sex very nicely. This is their basic principle of civilization.
Brahmānanda: So they are thinking, "Well, then we'll get the sun power. Then we'll get this and we'll get that."
Prabhupāda: Well, that is the problem. It is not that "Theoretically here is a problem. I will solve it like this. I'll..." That is not solution of problem. Problem is there. When you actually make solution, then... This is madness, theorizing, "We shall solve the problem like this." They are wasting public money in so many ways. (break) They do not know what is real problem. The real problem is presented by Kṛṣṇa: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). That they do not care, although they do not want it. That's a fact. It is a problem because they do not want it. But they do not take it as serious problem. This is foolishness.
Indian man (6): Is it the sin of some of the...?
Prabhupāda: No, that we shall consider. First of all we have to see that I learn that my position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So why I am put into this body which is hanyamāna? (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Yes. (Hindi) They want to remain in darkness, and any leader who will keep him in the darkness in flowery language, he will be welcomed: "Oh, he is very good leader." "And this man is very conservative: 'Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.' " So here is freedom. "Whatever you like, you do"—here is freedom. If this rascal does not do what you do and you go to hell, that is their business. Kṛṣṇa therefore says, "You rascal, where is your freedom?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you see. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So where is your freedom? First of all get out of these things; then question of freedom. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is your knowledge, that "Where is my freedom? If I am under the rules and regulation of janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, then where is my freedom?" (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Simply rubber-stamped freedom will help me? Suppose I was dependent on British rule, and now I have become free. So will this help me to get freedom from janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi? Then where is my freedom? What are major questions, they have set aside. "Don't discuss all these things, and bother your head with trifle things." And our philosophy is that "Don't bother with these trifle things. Just seriously think of the major problems." This is our philosophy. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Teṣām ahaṁ samuddhartā mṛtyu-saṁsāra-sāgarāt (BG 12.7). Samuddahartā, just to deliver them from this ocean of mṛtyu-saṁsāra. That is not care. Real freedom is given by him—that you don't care. (break) ...will be given by Kṛṣṇa. This is no freedom. Here the so-called freedom-giver, he has no freedom. And what he will give, freedom? Gandhiji preached so much about nonviolence, and nonviolence said, "All right, you have no freedom from nonviolence. You die." (Hindi) (break) ...is there, there is no question of freedom.
Devotee (5): Prabhupāda said Prahlāda Mahārāja said (unclear).
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hundred years finished and then become a dog. This is civilization. You got the hundred years for getting out of these material clutches, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhī (BG 13.9), but one will not do that. How spoiling civilization.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Fifth Canto it is very nicely described how for each sinful activity a person goes to a separate type of hellish planet.
Prabhupāda: But they do not accept this, such a foolish person.
Dr. Patel: I myself, sir, we are all (indistinct) not like you, we are worthless, we people. Unless you understand your worth... We are really worthless.
Prabhupāda: That is very good. /Tṛṇad api sunīcena/ taror api sahiṣṇunā/ amānin mānadena/ kīrtanīya sad hariḥ. That is the qualification for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Humbler than the grass, tolerant than the tree, giving all respect to others, expecting no respect for oneself. These are the qualifications to become perfectly Kṛṣṇa conscious. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁs kṣāntir ārjavam. Amanitva. Although he is very qualified, he says "No, no, no. I have no qualification." Amanitvam. This is amānitvam. (aside to passerby:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. This is the beginning of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahims kṣāntir ārjavam. The materialistic, everyone, they're not amānitvam, our, "I'm so respectful."
Dr. Patel: Not "I have done this."
Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say. This is the philosophy. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Where is that thing? That is taught from the brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, a small boy, he is taught that you become amānitvam adambhitvam, and he accepts it. Because he is small, the brahmacārī, he may becoming from a king's family, but if he's ordered, "My dear boy, take my shoes and brush it," he'll do it, because he's innocent boy. He learns. Therefore brahmacār gurukule vasan dānta. The mode of life should be trained from the brahmacārī.
Prabhupāda: No, why not to the...
Dr. Patel: And the first boy, his shoes goes to the teacher.
Prabhupāda: Some idea...
Dr. Patel: That is great idea.
Prabhupāda: No. That is also imperfect. Anyway, it is something. Amānitvam adambhitvam: they from the very beginning of their life, they address other's wife as "mother," you see? Matrvat paridaresu. This is culture, to see every woman except his own wife as mother. Where is that culture?
Man: Mahātm Gandhi also changed his life after brahmacārī...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Man: Mahātm Gandhi?
Prabhupāda: We are talking of real mahātmās, not politicians.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Find out.... But then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness.
Mike Barron: Can you tell me?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die: you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man: you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is unhappiness. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). That is intelligence, that "I do not want death. Why death comes upon me? Where is my happiness?" This knowledge will lead you to understand what is happiness. But if you remain ignorant like animal, you do not know what is happiness, and if you think, "The dog is having sex. I'll have sex. That is happiness," then where is the difference, dog mentality and your mentality?
Mike Barron: And Kṛṣṇa consciousness can help me attain this?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die; I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness.
Devotee (2): How can we make them understand they're being punished?
Prabhupāda: You can understand, provided you have got the sense. If you are nonsense, you cannot understand. You cannot understand means you are nonsense. That is the difference between sense and nonsense. That I have already given, the example: the same whip, to the animal it is not suffering, but for a man, simply by seeing it is suffering. It is the question of sense. That is the difference between man and animal. The animal cannot understand that he is suffering. Man can understand. That is difference. If you do not understand, then you are animal. Now, here it is clearly said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is unhappiness. And if you think, "Oh, what is there, unhappiness in dying?" then you are animal. The animal are taken to the slaughterhouse. He is not disturbed. He is eating grass very peacefully. That is the animal life. If you do not understand what is unhappiness, then you are animal. You are not human being. But his unhappiness, that's a fact, to remain in a airtight bag for ten months. If you have no sense, "Oh, what is this?" And still being killed, is it not unhappiness? And if you say, "Where is unhappiness?" then you are a stone. The Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Janma is unhappiness. First of all you have to remain ten months in a packed-up bag and that also risk your mother will kill you, and still you say, "It is not unhappiness"? Then what is happiness? You are so dull that you see there is no unhappiness in birth. Practically see.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Another line?
Prabhupāda: Find out amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntiḥ (BG 13.8), Thirteenth Chapter.
Guru-kṛpā: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam.
- adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ
- tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam
- etaj jñānam iti proktam
- ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā
- (BG 13.12)
Prabhupāda: Anyathā. These rascals, they're in ajñānam, dealing with sex life, dealing with the body as their philosophy, science. Dealing with the body and dealing with sex life is the animal business, and they are passing on as philosopher, scientist. This is their position, the whole world. So how much Kṛṣṇa consciousness is important, just imagine.
Prabhupāda: Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become, violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force—that is futile. Is it possible, that "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Kṛṣṇa says, "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu (BG 13.9). First of all surpass this, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Then talk of surpassing the laws of nature. Can the Communists overcome, stopping old age? No Communist will be old man? Then what way you have surpassed the laws of nature? No Communist will die? Then where is your surpassing laws of nature? Ultimately you are under the grip of laws of nature. So what is the meaning of this foolish talking, that "I am going to surpass the laws of nature"? Show us first of all.
Prabhupāda: Even if you go to the highest planet, Brahmaloka, you'll have to come back again. So why you should waste your time in this temporary thing? Go back to home, back to Godhead, where you'll get, awaken your eternal life, blissful life of knowledge. You go there. That is intelligence. If I have to endeavor, make preparation for going to the moon planet, so what is that moon planet? You can get duration of life, ten thousands of years. Just like we have got life here for one hundred years maximum, the moon planet, you can live there for ten thousands of years. But after that ten thousand years, you have to die. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). There is no excuse. So intelligent man, why he should endeavor for things which are temporary, maybe ten years or hundred years or ten thousand years? That is intelligence, that why should I try for temporary things? If there is possibility of my permanent life, blissful life, why not try? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama. Is that not? Find out. Yad gatvā na nivartante.
Prabhupāda: Animal does not understand what is birth, death, old age and disease. Real problem is there, but they are so dull-headed that their attention is diverted from the real problem. Temporary problems, they are busy. Just like, one major disease, one is suffering from a major disease. On account of that, he has sometimes headache, sometimes pain here, sometimes so many, minor. So, because we are subjected to meet death, so these minor conditions are there. The real problem is after suffering, suffering, suffering, suffering, when the body is no more able to bear suffering, it dies. Just like one man commits suicide. When he cannot control himself from the suffering, he voluntarily commits suicide. So death is the ultimate suffering. But we do not want suffering. Therefore problem is death. But who is anxious to solve this problem? They are not intelligent even. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). They do not know even what are the problems.
Prabhupāda: Stop death. Then I shall see your mysticism. What is this nonsense mysticism? Can you stop death? Is it possible? Then what is the meaning of this mysticism? All bogus. My problem is that I am accepting one body and suffering, because as soon as I get this material body, I have to suffer. Then I am creating another body. I die. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). And again begins another chapter. In this way, from this grass life to the demigods, I am simply changing body and dying and taking birth. This is my problem. So what mysticism will do? But that they do not know, what is the problem. That is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is your problem. You are repeatedly taking birth and dying, and so long you are living there are so many troubles. Jarā-vyādhi. Especially old age and disease. So this is the problem. What mysticism will help you? Will the mysticism stop your birth, death, old age and disease? Then that is mysticism. Otherwise, what is the use of such nonsense things. (break) ...misleading from the real path. They do not know what is the aim of life, what is the problem of life. They create some mysticism, and some rascal people are after them. That's all. "Here is mystic."
Prabhupāda: This is the beginning of spiritual education. One has to learn it, that "I'm not this body; I'm within this body, and I'm transmigrating from one body to another." That means repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. This is the main problem of life. So human life means to make a solution of these problems, not to be entangled with these problems again and again.
Indian man: The question is, one must be able to see if there's a problem. People don't see it as a problem.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Here is your problem: janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9)." Find out this verse.
Jayādvaita: Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi.
Prabhupāda: Yes, find out. This is knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means one must be able to see that what are the actual problems. Just like the scientists, the philosophers, they're trying to solve so many problems. But first of all, fix up what is the problem. Temporary problem, to make a solution, that is going on. But actual problem is this: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The soul is not destroyed, na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit, at any time. One should be very prudent to see that "If I have no birth and no death, then what is this nonsense, birth and death?" That is knowledge. Why I am dying? Why there is birth problem? Why there is death problem? And as soon as there is birth problem, there is disease problem, there is old age problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says.... What is the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi?
Jayādvaita: It's in the list of items of knowledge, "The perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the cure, medicine, is also given: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then.... Everyone has to give up this body, but a person who is in thorough knowledge of Kṛṣṇa, then he, after giving up this body, he does not accept any more material body. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). Find out his verse.
Jayādvaita: "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the solution. Therefore our only business should be to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection of life. That makes the solution-tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Our propaganda is how to understand Kṛṣṇa. And this yoga, Kṛṣṇa consciousness yoga, simply thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and try to understand Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man: All the ācāryas have been doing it.
Prabhupāda: No ācāryas are doing it. All lower-class men. No ācāryas do it. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Nimbārka, these are ācāryas. Śaṅkarācārya, Caitanya, they never did it. Outsiders, who did not care for the authority of the ācārya, they did it. Otherwise, we are the ācārya sampradāya. They'll never do that. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. Ācāryopāsanam. That is bona fide process of knowledge. Ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Ācāryopāsanam. This is the process of knowledge. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). This is the ācārya. Ācārya will never interpret things like that. You see Rāmānujācārya's comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Nothing changed. But in every śloka he has given evidence from the Vedas, from the Upaniṣads. Ācārya will never change.
So we have to come to that point, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That is nature's way, pulling by the ear: "Come here, do this." Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). This will go on as long as you are not agreeing to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. And as soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there is no infringement by māyā. (break) (Bengali) You understand Bengali? So the process is going on by the laws of nature to give us different types of trouble. The main trouble is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). It will go on unless we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Better surrender in this life and be perfect; then things are all right. And what is the benefit of our so-called independence? If we declare that we are independent of the laws of nature, is it possible? Is it possible? Then where is your independence? Why you are declaring falsely independence? If you declare yourself independent of God, then you become dependent on māyā. Just like the criminals. They don't care for the laws of the government.
Vṛṣākapi: Put people on other planets, so that the race can survive.
Bill Sauer: So that all of life can survive.
Vṛṣākapi: So that all of life can survive.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
- yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
- (BG 9.25)
If you want to transfer yourself to other planetary system, you can go. You can go to the higher planetary system, which is resided by the demigods, devas, yānti deva-vratā devān; and you can go to other planets, Pitṛloka; or you can remain here as you like; and you can go to the planet where God is there. Mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām. So this human life, you can make your selection. After all, you have to change your body, that is compulsory. Nobody can remain here with this body, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). And we have to change our body. So we can make our selection, where we shall go next, either in the higher planetary system or the Pitṛloka or we shall remain here or we can go even back to home, back to Godhead. So we must prepare ourselves for that purpose. Then next life we can go wherever we like. But anywhere within this material world, there are four principles, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. There is birth, there is death, there is old age and disease. But if you go to the spiritual kingdom, there is no more such things, no birth, no death, no disease, no old age. Now we can make our selection. And if we do not make our selection, if we live like cats and dogs, without any responsibility, then again we become in the category of cats and dogs. Mūḍha, janmani janmani (BG 16.20), life after life, they remain like animals, without any knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are carried away by the laws of nature. However you may improve your technological science, you are under the laws of material nature. That you cannot change. But if you revive your spiritual life, then you can change. Otherwise it is not possible. If you keep yourself under the laws of material nature, then you have to be carried away by the laws of material nature, however expert you may be in technological understanding. Because, after all, you are an instrument in the hands of material nature.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
You are falsely thinking "I am everything. I can, by technological understanding, improve the condition." But the real problem is, as it is put forward by Bhagavad-gītā, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). We are eternal, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are put under the laws of material nature, by which we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease. This is our real problem. So unless you make a solution of these problems, there is actually no advancement of education. But the problems remains the same.
Interviewer: So what is generally taken here... I mean, this is the American bicentennial year, and the Declaration of Independence talks about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Are you suggesting then that what is taken to be life is actually the antithesis of life? What is taken to be liberty is actually enslavement? And what is assumed to be the pursuit of happiness is nothing more than a rat race in which you try to make the best of what you can?
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is happiness. Bhagavad-gītā points out what is your distress. Can anyone say what is the actual distress? They do not know it. Distress they are taking as usual part of life. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is philosophy, to find out what is distress. This is directly said by Kṛṣṇa, that these are distresses, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, to take birth, to die, to become old and to become diseased. But they do not know it. Not only they, everyone, all over the world, they take it as part of life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. When a man becomes diseased, when a man becomes old, or when a man dies, they take it it is usual. They have been accustomed to these distresses so much that they do not take it as distress. So this is their ignorance. This is their ignorance. They do not know what is distress and they are struggling for moving the distress. Just like this independence. They do not know what is meaning of independence. Real independence is when you are free from these four kinds of distress. Does it mean that observing this kind of independence is real independence? It is simply fictitious.
Hari-śauri:
- janma karma ca me divyam
- evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
- tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
- naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
- (BG 4.9)
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is liberty. But they do not know it. They simply make a show that they are scholar of Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not know. They are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but they do not know how to get liberty. Neither they are interested. They want to stay here and subjected to the natural material condition, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). There is another verse, mām aprāpya? Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani, in the Ninth Chapter, I think. Aprāpya māṁ nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya, aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā... (BG 9.3).
Indian man: Misery of life is to be like this only. To live like this without the divine knowledge or without...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Miseries of life, real miseries of life that you are soul, eternal. Na jāyate na mriyate vā. There is no birth, there is no death. So therefore the birth and death is real misery. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is knowledge. But they have no brain. It is clearly said that na jāyate na mriyate vā. But these rascals never think "Why I am getting birth? Why I am dying?" So rascal. It is clearly said na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Where is that education? They do not know what is miseries. And they are trying, struggling to get out of misery. But they have no knowledge what is the actual misery. And therefore Kṛṣṇa pointing out, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is knowledge. Simply wasting time. They do not know what is the problem of life and how to solve it. They have no education.
Prabhupāda: Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ: (BG 15.7) "Every living entity is My part and parcel. Every living entity is begotten by Me. I am the father." So how you can make discrimination from one son to another? That is foolishness. You cannot expect by pleasing one son the father will be happy. But if you bring something to the father and pay him, or some food, "Sir, it is for your sons," then he'll be pleased. He'll distribute the foodstuff to his sons. But if you take care one of the sons and don't take care of the other son, the father will never please. Very... That is not the way of pleasing the father. That is foolishness. You may say that "I am taking care of the best son," but to a father, either the best son or the lowest son, the same. Father does not make any..., "Because this is best son, he should be satisfied and the worst sons should be neglect." Father does not make. Father will like better that "You take care of my worst son first." And besides that, to take care of the human society, it is also bogus. Nobody can take care. There are so many problems in the human society how you can take care? But the real problem is—that is for everyone—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Either he is animal or human being or demigod or big man or small man or rich man or poor man, a learned man, foolish man, these problems are there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So if you take care of these problems, how to save them, all of them, from these four problems, that is real service. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Otherwise temporary—"I am hungry. You give me some relief"—but that relief is temporary. I'll become again hungry. And if I come to you twice, thrice, you'll be disgusted. Neither you can. There are so many hungry men. But if with a view to solve his all problems of life, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, if you take care of him, that is the best service.
Guest (7): And he could not do his siddhi before (indistinct). If it is real siddhi he could have showed all his powers even before (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Go to the standard of knowledge. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted by the the ācāryas, Madhvācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya. So take that standard. Why do you go to the rascals and fools? Unless you are rascal and fool, you cannot go to the rascal and fool. Why? You take. If you want to know God, take the standard knowledge which is accepted by the... Ācāryopāsanam. You take the knowledge through the ācāryas. Why from a rascal? That is not knowledge. Kṛṣṇa recommends how to take the knowledge. Eh? Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Worship the ācārya. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Just read this. What is that?
Devotee (3): Amānitvam adambhitvam...
Prabhupāda: This is the process of knowledge. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam. Ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyāt (SB 11.17.27). If you go to ācārya, then you'll know the knowledge. What is this, go to a magician, a rascal? Magician is authority? There are so many magicians. So one should go for God to a magician? Ācāryopāsanam. Go to ācārya. That is recommended. Why should you go to the magician? That is your fault. You go to the wrong person, and you are cheated because you want to be cheated.
Indian man: And what is the upāsanā you will be prescribing for those people who want to achieve jñāna?
Prabhupāda: Yes, upāsanā. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Vinigrahaḥ, indriya-vinigrahaḥ. Find out this, Thirteenth Chapter. These are the process. First of all amānitvam. You have to surrender yourself that "I am insignificant." But in beginning you are puffed up. "I am so academic. Now I have got Ph.D." Rascals. First, beginning is amānitvam. And as soon as we become puffed-up, a little knowledge... A Little knowledge is dangerous. Then finished. So they are doing like that. A little knowledge, I think, "I have become more than my Guru Mahārāja." Finished. That is the defect. Find out. Read the...
Pradyumna:
- amānitvam adambhitvam
- ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam
- ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ
- sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ
- (BG 13.8)
- indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam
- anahaṅkāra eva ca
- janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi...
- (BG 13.9)
Prabhupāda: Everyone is after sense gratification. No vairāgya. And he's in knowledge. His qualification is like dog and he has become a man of knowledge. (break)
Indian man: To go to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Finish this.
Pradyumna: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛha. Everyone is attached. And this is ignorance. This is illusion. That developed society, community, nationality. But what is that? That attachment. But that attachment has to be taken away. That is knowledge. But we are teaching people how to become more and more attached in the name of Communism, Socialism, this ism, that ism, nationalism. These things are not given. The truth in all this means increasing putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. Not asakti but āsakti. Increasing ignorance. Then?
Pradyumna: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu.
Prabhupāda: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam. We should not be disturbed by this worldly disturbance. Tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real business is how to stop this birth, death, old age and disease. But they are not concerned with these things. They are simply disturbed with little temporary discomfort. Then?
Pradyumna: Mayi cānanya-yogena...
Prabhupāda: Mayi cānanya-yogena bhaktir...
Pradyumna: Avyabhicāriṇī.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Central point is to become devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Then?
Pradyumna: Vivikta-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi (BG 13.11).
Prabhupāda: Ah. Not to mix with this rascal class of men. Aratir jana-saṁsadi. Not that I hold a meeting and some rascals give me clapping, (claps hands) I become... Don't be after this. Try to understand the reality. But we, we become political leader, and if one thousand or one lakh of people give me a few claps I think I become perfect. What you are perfect? The next moment by the laws of nature you'll be slapped and taken away. Who could save Gandhi when he was fired by the laws by the nature? That clapping would not save me. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). When Kṛṣṇa will come and put you death, what you will do? With you clapping and your bank balance. You'll be taken away. Then?
Pradyumna: Adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam.
Prabhupāda: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva-jñāna. What is tattva? These things are absent completely from the whole world. But everything is there. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. If people take it they'll be benefited. This simple mission. We are following Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that you become guru. Everyone become guru. So how shall I become guru? Very simple thing.
Prabhupāda: That people take Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You'll be benefited, the whole world will be benefited. Our thing is simple. It is stated there, yāre dekha tāre kaha 'kṛṣṇa'-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). You learn first of all Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and you preach. They are hankering after.
Indian man: What do you think of miracle saints? The saints who perform miracles?
Prabhupāda: Miracles? Why do you want miracles? What miracle? Can you save a man from death? Can you show this miracle? This miracle means cheating. The real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9).
Indian man: No but can a saint...
Prabhupāda: Why you are after miracles?
Indian man: No, but one thing. Is it possible for a saint at certain stage of sādhana to perform miracles?
Prabhupāda: That is cheating.
Hari-śauri: When we go out and preach and we just repeat or try to repeat whatever we've heard from the spiritual master, but we may not have fully realized what we're speaking about, does that somehow or another reduce the potency of the Gītā or the Bhāgavatam or...
Prabhupāda: Yes, realization takes time. Therefore there is no question of realization. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says you simply repeat as Kṛṣṇa says. That will save you. The so-called political leaders, they have no realization, but they manufacture their ideas. That is dangerous. Mislead themselves and others. In Bhagavad-gītā it is clearly said, ācāryopāsanam. Amānitvam adambhitvam. This is the process of knowledge. These so-called scholars and politicians, they have no ācārya. Instead of being amānitvam, they're mani... "I have become a leader, so whatever I shall say, it will be accepted." This is going on. Very bad. It is clearly said, as soon as you give up the ācārya system it is rotten. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. So things which is rotten, what you'll get benefit? That is going on. Therefore in spite of so many Gītā commentators, big, big leaders, scholars, not a single person is converted into a devotee. Not a single person amongst their followers. It's useless talking. Therefore it is forbidden. Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtam... Because they are not Vaiṣṇava, politicians and—reject them immediately. Immediately. That is the injunction. I wrote Mahatma Gandhi that "You are so respectful. People have got... Now you have got your svarāja. Please take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and let us preach."
Dr. Patel: If they had followed Raj Gopalacharya this country would have been far better in knowledge. Raj Gopalacharya. That is because he was paraṁ bhakta, to tell the truth, always.
Prabhupāda: Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). Therefore he was qualified. Anyway, if you are interested in Bhagavad-gītā, how you can misinterpret? How you can put your own words to mislead people? How much misleading this is.
Hari-śauri: Actually they're not interested in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: I knew all these things but what I am? I have no position.
Dr. Patel: But what you have commented is correct. And the Bhagavad-gītā, real thing is man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Instead they directed their attention to karma and this and that. It was and similar thing...
Prabhupāda: But because they did not learn subject matter from ācārya. Yes. Ācārya, one has to learn from the ācārya.
Dr. Patel: Ācārya is one who ācāra, himself practices.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. One who knows and practices. Ācinoti śāstra. One who knows the real purpose. And there is no difficulty of understanding the real purpose. It is clearly said, everything. The process of knowledge is given, amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam (BG 13.8). Where is that? In the beginning, "Oh, I am such a big leader, politician. Whatever I say is nice." Dambha. Dambha. Because he's thinking puffed-up falsely. Some rascal fools give them clap. (Prabhupāda claps) They think, "Oh, I have become very great."
Dr. Patel: Nowadays sir, they collect people to clap them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. They make such a speech and practice. One political leader, he is young man, he was saying in Hyderabad... He was ambassador in... That Rao?
Hari-śauri: Yes, Motilal Rao.
Prabhupāda: So he did not know. He said that "When I was going to be ambassador, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he told me that, "You first of all write a speech and practice it and deliver it very nicely. Then they will applaud." This is Dr. Radhakrishnan. They want simply applause. That's all. Because they know, "If the public applauds, then I keep my position. I am... Whatever nonsense I speak or whatever nonsense I... it doesn't matter."
Prabhupāda: This is the fact that yato mata tato patha? Whatever path you accept, that is all right? He said that. Do you think it is bona fide? Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam, and he approves anything.
Dr. Patel: He was a partial political leader also.
Prabhupāda: That's all. He's a political leader.
Dr. Patel: But then he had a great burning desire to see that India be free of British purpose. He was a real nationalist...
Prabhupāda: That even cats and dogs, they also want that my cats be well fed and strong. That is not a very good position. And Bhagavad-gītā says aratiḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. This is philosophy. And if one is attached to his homely happiness he's not even a man of knowledge.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Jñāna, real jñāna, is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out. Etaj jñānam iti proktam ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. What is jñāna, that is stated. But where is jñāna? Everyone is ajñāna. General people, they're karmīs and, little more, jñānīs. But jñāna is not complete unless he knows the Supreme Lord.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Unless he has realized.
Prabhupāda: Not realized, no. Just like we are talking personally. This is...
Jagadīśa: Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam, ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucam... (BG 13.8).
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is ācāryopāsanam. That is required. But these yogis, jñānīs, karmīs, they have no ācārya. They are self-made. Just like Dr. Russer.(?). He's self-made. So what he will do? Now he's caught up. He's in the trap. He's not a scientific man, but he presented himself as very scientific, so now he's caught up.
Prabhupāda: He's also going to the hell. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisraṁ punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). So without ācāryopāsanam, without being under the control of ācārya, these are all bogus.
Yogi Amrit Desai: That's exactly what I believe. That's so true.
Jagadīśa: Anahaṅkāra eva ca, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9).
Prabhupāda: They are showing some magic. Just like this child was being treated. So he could not check the process of death. Neither it is possible to stop the process of death. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha... Our real unhappiness is this-janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. So otherwise why there is knowledge? He does not know what is the miserable condition of life. Everyone knows that he is going to die. He has taken birth; he has become old; he has suffered diseases. Then where is the solution? In America this yoga practice is very popular, and they want some solution of the miseries. But here it is said, "Where is the solution?" Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi is there. Where is your solution? You cannot stop death. Then where is the solution? This is cheating, that "I shall make solution of your suffering." But a intelligent man will say, "Can you make a solution of my death, of my old age, of my disease, of my birth?" That is knowledge. But they are poor fellows. They have no knowledge and they cheat. That's all. Where is solution? Solution is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), it is said. Otherwise cheating.
Prabhupāda: You may take care as carefully as possible, but it will not exist.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. No matter how much you take care of it.
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Then?
Jagadīśa: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu: completely detached from family life, anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ, not to associate with so-called society, family, community.
Yogi Amrit Desai: All detachment from everyone.
Prabhupāda: This is all material. Asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu. Then?
Jagadīśa: Nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu.
Prabhupāda: Nityam. One must know that "I am eternal." Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "So I must act accordingly." And so far material distress and happiness is concerned, sama-cittatvam.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Sama-cittatvam under both success and failure.
Prabhupāda: That is immaterial thing. They are superficial.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Right. It's so beautiful to hear that. And I know you mean it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then?
Jagadīśa: Mayi cānanya-yogena bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī.
Prabhupāda: This is possible when it is added with bhakti.
Yogi Amrit Desai: With bhakti. Then only.
Prabhupāda: Mayi ca. Ca means also. Simply practicing these things will not help. Unless there is bhakti, they'll not agree.
Yogi Amrit Desai: It's not complete.
Prabhupāda: No, no. It will not agree (avail?). One may be artificially tyāgī, but if there is no bhakti he'll fall down. Just like Viśvāmitra was a great yogi, but because there was no bhakti he fell down. He had relationship with Menakā and gave birth to Śakuntalā, such a big yogi. So he fall down, must fall down in māyā, because there is no bhakti. So they have so many cases we see, fall down. Then if you fall down, then where is your bhakti, jñāna? Nothing. But bhakti does not fall down. If he's really on the bhakti stage he does not fall down. Others must fall down. Must. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). Then?
Jagadīśa:
- vivikta-deśa-sevitvam
- aratir jana-saṁsadi
- adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ
- tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam
- (BG 13.11)
Prabhupāda: Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Then?
Jagadīśa: Etaj jñānam iti proktam...
Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam. (Hindi) ...jñāna. Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā. Anything else, that is all ajñāna. Anything else.
Yogi Amrit Desai: Anything else is ajñāna.
Prabhupāda: Ajñāna. None of them.
Trivikrama: To teach. "I've come to give."
Dr. Patel: I understand. The modern materialistic, I mean, advancement of society with this modern technology will, I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, even from that point of view, I was taking aeroplane. Aeroplane was flying. So we admit this is contribution of the Western technology. But it is not safe. But what I am giving, it is safe. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato... So our, this contribution of India's culture and this contribution, far different. That is not safe. At any moment you'll be finished. But here-svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This Manipur state is mentioned in the Bhāgavata. And these people say that three thousand years before, there was no civilization.
Prabhupāda: If one thinks, "This body, I am"—either Hindu or Muslim or dog or cat, if one is thinking in that way, that "I am this body,"—sa eva go-kharaḥ: (SB 10.84.13) he's animal. So from one animal to another animal—from cat to dog or from dog to cat—where is the benefit? The position is the same. As a cat he will that "Meow," and as a dog, he'll "Gowl." That's all, that much difference. But he remains animal. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). What is benefit of such humanitarian work? And Bhagavad-gītā says mām upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. No more either cat or dog. Mām eva. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is wanted. Punar janma means if I am cat, I become a dog, or if I am a dog, I become cat. That is punar janma. So that will continue his birth and death. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). What is that benefit? Suppose I am now human being and next life I become either dog or a demigod. So the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9) is there, either you become a demigod or a dog. But your position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You have to come to that position.
Guest (2): Because in observing karma-phela, somebody's taking care of. In bhakti...
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. In Bhagavad-gītā there is no such statement that you take care of the eyes of the people. There is no such statement. That is your manufactured idea. But we are preaching Bhagavad-gītā as it is. That is the difference. Our preaching is that instead of giving relief to the eyes, give him relief in such a way he hasn't got to accept any more this body with eyes. You cannot make a solution of the problem. Somebody is taking care of the eyes, somebody's taking of the finger, somebody of the hair, somebody of another, genital, and so on, so on. This will not solve the problem. The problem is, as it is said in the Bhagavad..., janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). This is intelligence. As soon as you take birth, then you'll have eyes, you'll have eye trouble, vyādhi. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. If you accept janma-mṛtyu, then between janma-mṛtyu there is vyādhi and jarā. You have to accept. You may give some relief, but you have to accept. So that is not solution. The solution is how to stop this janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That is solution. That is bigger solution. So we are giving that thing—there will be no more eyes' trouble. The main disease... Suppose one man is diseased, so sometimes he is feeling headache, sometimes eye-ache, sometimes finger-ache, and you are applying some medicine for headache. That is not the solution. The solution is that this man is suffering from this disease.
Prabhupāda: So because the body is not permanent, the disease also not permanent. So Kṛṣṇa's advice is tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). You make the solution—that is the greatest solution—that how to stop janma-mṛtyu. But that they do not know, that this can be stopped. They are simply busy with their temporary problems. And they are taking it as very great. What is great? Suppose if you have got a boil here. Simply by pinprick. (makes blowing sound) Will it cure? There must be surgical operation. Get out the pus. So this movement is for that purpose. It is not for this janma-mṛtyu, I mean, temporary jarā-vyādhi. That is all right, but Kṛṣṇa says—if we take Kṛṣṇa's advice, Bhagavad-gītā—that is not problem. If there is little trouble, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Real problem is that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Try to stop it. That is intelligence. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). That is culture; that is education, not to be very much bothered with the temporary. That is not very intelligence. Give them this culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have got this body. So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease.
Prabhupāda: So long you have got this body, you may give relief to the eyes, but another trouble will come. It is not guarantee that by giving them relief to the eyes he gets relief from all kinds of disease. That is go... That will go, going on, janma-mṛtyu..., er, mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya (BG 2.14). So give relief, and the real relief, how to stop... That is our Vedic civilization, that you should not become father, you should not become mother, if you cannot give protection to your children from the cycle of birth and death. Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This is real problem. Real culture is that "This child has come to me, so we shall train him in such a way that no more accepting body." Because as soon as we accept body.... It is very difficult subject matter, of course, to understand, but Bhagavad-gītā teaches yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati (BG 4.7). When people forget this problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi, Kṛṣṇa personally comes to teach them that "This is your problem."
Rāmeśvara: They cannot control their sex desire. And some of these methods are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No. Sex desire cannot be controlled by ordinary man. That's a fact. But they have invented so many things to stop increase of population. Why population is increasing? That is the point. They are killing and more... They're taking contraceptive tablets and so on, so on, a vigorous arrangement for stopping birth or checking increase of population. Why every second or every minute throughout the whole world three men are increasing? That they cannot stop. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). It is indeed troublesome, but you cannot stop it. Either birth or death or disease or old age, you cannot stop. You want it. Everyone wants. Who wants to become old man like me to run on with a stick and with so many inconveniences? But I have to become old man. Who can stop it? Similarly, birth, death also, or disease... You may be proud that "We have invented medicine for cancer and...," but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. What is their answer?
Prabhupāda: Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Kṛṣṇa—that is Vṛndāvana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Kṛṣṇa. And other things—very simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk, and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death. This is not civilization. This is killing civilization. Human being got the opportunity to get out of these clutches of birth and death. They do not understand. They're so rascal, they do not understand how they are implicated in this cycle of birth and death, nor they do take it seriously, that this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). They are so blind rascals, they do not see that this is real suffering. They do not know it. Simply theorizing, making plan, and they do not know what is the suffering. Such a rascal civilization. So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way. That's a very nice place, center of Europe and very nice place. What is the condition of rainfall?
Yogeśvara: Last summer was dry, but it was not so much dangerous for us. And now it is steady.
Prabhupāda: So there must be rainfall. And if we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there will be rainfall.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Slowly.
Prabhupāda: While slowly, then life will be automatically finished. Instead of seeing success, he'll be... He will die. Sarthe sarthe dal puriya gelun.(?) One man was to go to a fair, so he began to dress himself nicely. So dressing, dressing, in the meantime the fair is finished. (laughs) This is their program. You require water immediately: "All right, after three hundred millions of-water." This is science, all rascals. I use very strong word, but actually... Simply promising, no solution of problems. They do not know even what is what. But big, big words, jugglery of words... They are themselves rascals, and some rascals praise them, "Oh, you are..." Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). What they can do? Real problem, there is no solution. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Big, big scientists, why they not make provision that "My dear students, when I shall be dying, you give this pill and I shall again...," or "I am manufacturing another brain like me. You can utilize it"? Where is that science? The scientific brain of Einstein, he could not prepare another brain like his. Hm? Was he able to do that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. No. They have to...
Prabhupāda: But who made his brain? He is accepted as a great scientist because he has got good brain, but he cannot make that brain. There is another scientist. He has made this brain. So we have to seek that scientist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Understanding the laws of nature and the provider of the laws of nature is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That laws of nature is working. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). Huh? Andhā yathāndhair..., te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Īśa-tantra, by the laws of nature they are tightly, hand and legs are, they are bound up. What they can do? Therefore Kṛṣṇa summarizes all the different types of tribulation. Kṛṣṇa said... These all kinds of tribulation is summarized in these four principles—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Ah. Bas. You make solution these, first of all. Then talk of all nonsense. You cannot make any solution. There are different types of suffering, but they are all summarized in these four words-janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Make solution. This is God's challenge. You are challenging God in His arrangement, and God's challenge is that "Here are four principles. Do something for these, rascal. Then you talk of solution."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the basic laws of nature, which we cannot alter. We cannot change. It will come sooner or later.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the use?
Yogeśvara: But let us say by his karma a man is in a position where he cannot perceive...
Prabhupāda: That is the... That is in the via media. The real trouble is there—janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Now if you can make change... Suppose you are now a dog. You can become a man. But that is not solution. Or you are man; you can become a demigod. Karma. But that does not make solution! Either you become demigod or man or dog or cat or insect, you must have these tribulations, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). That is God's challenge. You first of all make solution. But you are eternal. Why you are in this condition? Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). You... That means you are eternally suffering, punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), simply changing the position. But suffering's there. So you are taking credit by little change of the position. And that is your foolishness. And God challenges you, "You make solution of these things." Why little change? Suppose I am... I have got so many centers. Sometimes I live in the palace, other times a cottage. So this is change of position. But I am the same man.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have an example in our article about this, about the laws of karma and the living entities. So we use this pig.(?) So we say that...
Prabhupāda: Laws of karma is simply change of body, deha upapatti, the same process, to put the same eatable from iron pot to golden pot or from golden pot to another pot. This is law of karma. But the taste is not changed. The bitter taste is there, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. That these rascals, they do not understand. The Einstein, he gave so many improvement of life, but he is dying. He's tasting the same bitterness as a dog is tasting. Therefore we do not give any position better than the dog. Why you are dying? Why you cannot change this taste? Stop this. Then you are scientist.
Prabhupāda: So Ṛṣabhadeva says, "It is not good business." Na sādhu manye. Now what is the wrong there? Just like the Hawaii student. Wrong is there that you'll get a body and to get body means suffering, any body, whatever body you'll get. Yata ātmano 'yam asann api. Although you can say, "All right, suffering, it will end with the body." Just like modern science. "Everything will be ended with the body." But not... It will appear in different way. But at least so long you live, you have to suffer. Asann api. The body will not endure, but the suffering will continue. That they do not understand. This is called mode of ignorance, mūḍha. So we should not lose the chance of ending our suffering. We must know what is the suffering. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha (BG 13.9). Duḥkha means suffering. And the real suffering is to take birth and then again die. And between birth and death there is old age and disease. Who can deny it? Where is the scientist. "Yes, we shall end all this nonsense." (chuckling) Nobody can end it. It is not possible. But they are trying. Durāśaya. Hoping something which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Their material adventure for mitigating suffering, will it be possible? (aside:) Bring some sugar cane, er, sugar candy. The mode of ignorance is very, very bad. Little more advance, mode of passion. Further advanced, mode of knowledge. Further advanced is spiritual position. Just see.
Jayapatākā: This is real knowledge.
Prabhupāda: This is real knowledge. Hm.
Pradyumna: Whole thing read or just that, amānitvam adambhitvam?
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Pradyumna:
- amānitvam adambhitvam
- ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam
- ācāryopāsanaṁ śaucaṁ
- sthairyam ātma-vinigrahaḥ
- (BG 13.8)
- indriyārtheṣu vairāgyam
- anahaṅkāra eva ca
- janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-
- duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam
- (BG 13.9)
- asaktir anabhiṣvaṅgaḥ
- putra-dāra-gṛhādiṣu
- nityaṁ ca sama-cittatvam
- iṣṭāniṣṭopapattiṣu
- (BG 13.10)
- mayi cānanya-yogena
- bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī
- vivikta-deśa-sevitvam...
- (BG 13.11)
Prabhupāda: Mayi ca. Simply this qualification will not help. Mayi ca bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī. When it is added with bhakti, then it is perfect. Mayi ca avyabhicāriṇī. That ca. Ca means "Without this, these are useless." Ca. You must add bhakti also, avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti, unflinching faith in devotional service. Mayi ca avyabhicāriṇī-bhakti...
Pradyumna: Mayi ca ananya-yogena bhaktiḥ...
Prabhupāda: Ananya-yoga, ananya-bhakti, pure.
Pradyumna: Ah, vivikta.
Prabhupāda: Vivikta...
Pradyumna: Vivikta-deśa-sevitvam aratir jana-saṁsadi (BG 13.11).
Prabhupāda: Hm. Not to mix with ordinary men, aratir jana, general public. Just like this, our place—only devotion. This is vivikta, aloof from this world. We have no other business except Kṛṣṇa consc..., bhakti. And aratir jana-saṁsadi, no, mean, association with ordinary person, no association. We can go and talk of some..., for our own benefit or Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise we have no business with them. Noncooperation. We go to the public for preaching, not to associate with them. To give them association, so they may be benefited. Either he may be prime minister or this or that, we have no business with them. But for our purpose we go. Big, big karmīs, life member. So we have no personal concern, but for their benefit we go there. Their hard-earned money, if something is spent for this purpose, he'll be benefited. This is our... Otherwise we have no business with them. Aratir jana-saṁsadi. Then?
Pradyumna:
- adhyātma-jñāna-nityatvaṁ
- tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam
- etaj jñānam...
Prabhupāda: Etaj jñānam: these are knowledge. This is education. Then?
Pradyumna: Ajñānaṁ yad ato 'nyathā.
Prabhupāda: Anything apart from this, they're all rascaldom. Bas. That is again confirmed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Vidyā-madhye kṛṣṇa... What is that?
Satsvarūpa: Kon vidyā vidyā-madhye sāra, rāya kahe-kṛṣṇa-bhakti vinā vidyā nāhi āra.
Prabhupāda: Āra. So these things will be accepted by kṛṣṇa-bhakta, etaj jñānam. So whatever Kṛṣṇa has said, that is knowledge, vidyā. Everything nonsense. Therefore so boldly we say, "All rascaldom." Never mind. That's a fact. That is a fact. Anyone... Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Anyone who is not devotee of Kṛṣṇa, bhagavad-bhakta-useless. Jaḍa-bidyā jato māyāra vaibhava, jībake karaye gādhā. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said. By this so-called material education, one is already gādhā, go-khara, dehātma-buddhi, and he becomes still more, another staunch gādhā. Now, if you speak the straight truth they'll be angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi. But this is fact.
Jayapatākā: You can speak, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: I speak. I said in Melbourne, "United Nations is association of barking dogs."
Jayapatākā: You have that expert quality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I cannot check myself.
Pradyumna: You say that. You get so angry at seeing it, you...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. That is Narottama Ṭhākura's instruction. You must be very angry, those who are against God and devotee, very angry. Utilize your anger for them. Krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. That anger is service. Kṛṣṇa-sebā kāmārpaṇe. For Kṛṣṇa's service one should be mad. Kāma-krodha should be given up, but a bhakta does not give up. Utilize it. A bhakta should be very much for kamut(?) serving Kṛṣṇa. And he must utilize his anger for the bhakta-dveṣi, those who are not devotee. Kṛṣṇa-sebā kāmārpaṇe krodha bhakta-dveṣi-jane. We have nothing to give up like Māyāvādī. Kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. Mātsarya may... That has to be... A bhakta cannot be envious. If a bhakta is angry upon them, that is not envious. That is for good. A bhakta should not be envious. Otherwise how he can preach? He's merciful. Even if he's angry, it is mercy. Therefore this mātsarya has no use for bhakta. Other things, they have use, kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, not mātsarya. Mātsarya is very bad.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In order to accept this, they will have to rewrite the laws.
Prabhupāda: This is the actual... Now, apart from the scriptural injunction, if one comes to the argument, then such kind of father is there in the animal society also. Cats and dogs, they also beget children, but they cannot relieve the child from the cycle of birth and death. And Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). First of all you have to see what is the actual distress in this material life. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). So in this life you are my father, and next time I become a cat or dog, so who cares for this father? I get another father. So who knows this law? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā (BG 3.27). The laws of nature is going on, and everything is happening. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye (SB 3.31.1). We are getting a type of body according to karma.
Prabhupāda: If first-class rascal is advised, he thinks otherwise, that "He is bothering me." So what can be done? We have taken this daṇḍa, we have accepted service of Kṛṣṇa, and if He has ordered that "You preach this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā. You'll become My very dearest servant," He'll show them. Na ca tasmād manuṣyeṣu kaścit. So we want to be very faithful to our master, so you may come against us. We don't mind. Jesus Christ was crucified. He didn't mind. So if you are unnecessarily prosecuting us, we don't mind. We must go on with our duty. We cannot give it up. That's all. It is not possible. What to..., you are prosecuting? If you kill us, we shall not. We have taken this daṇḍa. This is our determination. You cannot stop us. That's it. "Because we know this is the only welfare activity to the human society. You make talk, madmen. We don't care for it. To be imprisoned with this material body—the greatest suffering... You are trying to mitigate suffering, temporary, this way and that, but you do not know how." That you can show from the Bhagavad... Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). "This is real suffering. Why the eternal soul should be subjected to birth, death, old age and disease? We are seeing to this. You are thinking that 'If I can place myself in a very high skyscraper building and motorcar,' your business is finished. We are not so fool. We know that 'Any moment, I shall be kicked out of the skyscraper building and motorcar by the laws of nature.' " That's a fact. But fools cannot understand. They think, "This is my permanent..." That is not permanent, but you are permanent. "Where is my permanent situation?"—we are seeking after that. So we are not so fools. We are taking that "I am permanent. Why I should be encapped or entangled in this nonpermanent." This is our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Nowhere it is taught that 'You are eternal. You are suffering in this way.' Where is that education?"
Ādi-keśava: They don't have it.
Prabhupāda: No. "But you do not know. We get this information, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). Eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne (BG 2.20). Therefore we are trying for that. But you are so dull, in spite of having so many... Therefore the resultant action is you are producing hippies at the end. And how you can be satisfied anymore? They are disgusted with this eating, sleeping, mating business. Now you'll have only hippies." They're disgusted with this system of education, because it is not education at all. This is keeping them in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Mām upetya punar janma duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam. So long you have to accept another body, you must suffer. Suffering means this body. That Kṛṣṇa says. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Real suffering is here, that you have to take your birth, you have to die, you have to suffer from disease and old age. But your position is na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācit. Your business is not to take birth and die. But why you are suffering? Nobody wants to die. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. He must become. So you do not know what is suffering and how to mitigate it. And Kṛṣṇa points out, "This is suffering." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam. This is knowledge. So temporary... Suppose if there is any boil, and if you... Is that mitigation of suffering, do you think? "Oh, you are suffering?" The surgeon must come and operate and get out this pus and then suffering. So here Kṛṣṇa recommends, "This is mitigation of suffering. Stop your birth, death, old age and disease." So we do not know what is suffering and how to get out. Therefore we have to consult Kṛṣṇa in every step. Then our life will be... This is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and try to abide by it. Your suffering will go. Otherwise, simply dog barking will not help.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Mūrkhasya lakuṭauṣadhi(?). When a person is fool number one, beat him. That's all. Ḍhol gobara...(?) Tulasī dāsa has said, ḍhol gobara śūdra paśu nārī, ei saba śāsana ke adhikārī. Ḍhol, drum, you have to bring it to the tune by beating, "tung, tung." Gobara. Gobara means fool person. Paśu, animal. Ḍhol, gobara, pa..., śūdra, and nārī, woman. They should be punished to bring them into order. Ei saba śāsana ke adhikārī. Otherwise they will spoil. A barking dog, you cannot pacify him, "My dear dog, don't bark." It will disturb him: "No!" Ḍhol gobara śūdra paśu nārī, ei saba śāsana ke... So anyone who is denying the existence of God, he is a rascal number one and beat him with shoes. Bas. He is being beaten with shoes by nature.
Girirāja: By the laws of nature.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), going on. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). But they are so shameless, neither they do know what is going to happen. Some rascal the other day complained, "There are many orphans." The orphan means no father? Does orphan means he has no father? Orphan means he has father; the father does not take care. That's all. You cannot deny, "There is no father."
Indian man (1): There is no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: So take the perfect knowledge. Follow it. You become perfect. Perfection means... That is also stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Real misery is that I am eternal... As God is eternal, I am also eternal. So now I am subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease, due to the physical body. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam: (BG 13.9) "You are trying to mitigate all kinds of sufferings. So why don't you see the real suffering is here, janma." How to stop this repetition of birth—that is your real problem. But they have made problems, so-called politics, philanthropy, altruism, humanitarianism, this, that, that, so many. But real problem remains, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi. This is the defect. They won't take what is the problem, how to solve it. Everything is in oblivion, ignorance. What can be done? Although there is knowledge, there is light, there is practical example, they won't take it. What can be done? So we shall request you all, please don't waste your time in this way, that way, and ultimately come to the conclusion, zero. Take instruction of Bhagavad-gītā in all regards and be happy. It is not difficult. Practical examples are there. Before me, ten years before, whole world, foreigners, there was not a single Kṛṣṇa conscious. Whole history. Now you'll find thousands. Why? I have not manufactured (indistinct), giving them. I have given them Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Taking care of children, that is done by the birds. In the nest the small kiddies are there, and they are bringing food and pushing in the mouth, (makes bird noise:) "Tee, tee, tee, tee, tee." Are they householder? And if you think they are householder, you are also householder like the dogs and birds. You do not know what is householder. Therefore you have to consult śāstra, who is a householder. Śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum: "You should not become a father and mother unless you take the responsibility for children that no more birth." Because this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are so able father and mother that you can stop this miserable condition of your children, then you become householder. That is householder. Otherwise what is the use of becoming a householder like dogs and cats? There is no use. There are so many cats and dogs. What is use of increasing? Now government is forcing: "Do not produce cats and dogs. Take these inhibitions(?)." Because the whole world is fed up with these cats and dogs householders. Real householder is, śāstra says, "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot protect your children..." Samupeta-mṛtyum. And they are required. If you can do that, then you are welcome. You can produce hundreds of children. But you cannot protect yourself; how you'll be able to protect your children? All bogus. Householder is allowed, as brahmacārī-āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. It is not meant that... Big, big personality were householder. Lord Rāmacandra was householder. Arjuna was householder. Prahlāda Mahārāja was a householder. Janaka Mahārāja was householder. But they were not cats and dogs. So be householder. You do the duty of real householder. Don't become cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: Then that means you make your own rule. You have to follow rules. But you make your own rules.
Young man (6): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But you have to follow the rules. That is a fact. Either your own rules or Christian rules or Muslim rules or Hindu rules, you have to follow rules. That's a fact. Now, that I have already told. Now make your own choice. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). If you think your rules will solve this problem... Real problem is janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). If you think that following your rules will solve this problem, then you follow.
Indian man (2): Naturally Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And He says, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām: "I can adjust things." So we are not taking. (Hindi) From all angles of vision, if you study Bhagavad-gītā, everything is perfectly there. And if you take it seriously, you become happy in this life and dehāntare. If you simply take, accept Kṛṣṇa as He says, then what is result? Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Punar janma, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), but one who has understood Kṛṣṇa perfectly—it is not possible to understand Him, but as far as possible, as far as our knowledge is concerned—if we understand Kṛṣṇa, then immediate result is that we are freed from the bondage of janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). So that is the real problem. We are solving problems, this problem, that problem, that... They are not problems. That is natural in this material world. Just like this fly is disturbing. This is not a problem because the fly is made for that purpose. How... You cannot stop him. You can protect yourself. It is not possible to stop him. This is not problem, how to drive away the fly. The real problem, Kṛṣṇa says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam, that you are in the cycle of birth, death... Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You get another life and you suffer. Again you get another life. This is your problem. So that problem, Kṛṣṇa says, that "You can solve it. Simply try to understand Me." Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā deham (BG 4.9). That is our business. But we are being deviated from the real business, and we are being engaged in so-called this ism, that ism, that ism. This is spoiling the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. We don't want. People want money and many followers, nice wife, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu refuses.
- na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ
- kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye
- mama janmani janmanīśvare
- bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi
(Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4)
"Let me remain Your servant janmani janmani." Mukti means no more janma. So He doesn't want even mukti. Bhukti-mukti-siddhi. For a devotee, either this life or next life, the business is the same, to serve Kṛṣṇa. So this verse, nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma... (SB 5.5.4). People are mad after sense gratification in different ways, so Ṛṣabhadeva says, "No, no, no, this is not good. You have already obtained a material body as a result of your past karma, and you are suffering." Body means suffering. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). "So you have already got this body, and you are suffering. You are again trying to get another body?" Na sādhu manye: "This is not good." Our whole Vedic civilization is punar janma jayāya, to conquer over punar janma. And here Kṛṣṇa gives the very simple formula, janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti (BG 4.9). If we simply understand what is Kṛṣṇa... And what is Kṛṣṇa, for that purpose, we are writing so many books. The scholars, they are appreciating. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is available very easily. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). But if you want to understand Kṛṣṇa tattvataḥ, then we have got so many books. You can read and try to understand Kṛṣṇa. And when you understand kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28), then your life is successful.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa also says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). To approach Kṛṣṇa is not so easy thing. After many, many births... We are rotating... (break) ...superintendent of this egglike aṇḍa, universe. It is all Brahmā's. And there are innumerable planets. That we can see. So we are wandering in all these places, sometimes down, sometimes up, sometimes in the middle, according to our karma, in different species of life, in different planets, in different position. So we are rotating. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "Out of these innumerable living entities who are entrapped with this brahmāṇḍa and janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi... (BG 13.9)." Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Life after life, life after life, they are... That we do not know. This is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. You die, accept another body, another place, another situation, another position. This is going on. Brahmāṇḍa-bhramaṇa. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "In this way, rotating, and in course of our rotation, if we are fortunate enough, then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness."
Upendra: They say they are living more comfortably.
Prabhupāda: Nonsense comfortably... They have changed the season? Is it comfortable? We have to take this cooling machine. What is the practical benefit? You can say that it is comfortable. That's all right. But that does not mean that you have moved the uncomfortable situation. You are struggling against. That much you can take credit. Real benefit is not there. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). Real unhappiness is this, that you are: "Why I am struggling? I don't want death." Actually why I am taking massage and so on, so on? So that I may not die. So where is the scientists' guarantee, "No, you'll not die"? Has he any...? You'll struggle only. That's all. The scientists cannot guarantee, "No, you'll not die." That is real guarantee. "You'll die comfortably." Hm? Die comfortably? Now there is no appetite. Where is the scientist, assuring, "Take"? What actual benefit they have done? They are giving some... Nothing they have given. It is simply bluff.
Śatadhanya: Actually when we see it from that point of view, the scientists have given nothing beneficial.
Prabhupāda: Ultimately the our troubles are janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). And they do not know, science. They cannot solve.
Śatadhanya: When we say that, they say, "No one can solve them."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śatadhanya: They say, "That is pie-in-the-sky."
Prabhupāda: You say. We don't say. Because you cannot do, you say. We are cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness for this purpose. We are not wasting time. And we are wasting time doing so? We are fools? That is the first instruction, that soul is immortal and unchanging. This very instruction they cannot understand. That is first instruction.
Prabhupāda: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And each place with fifty to one hundred servants.
Prabhupāda: Yes... So happiness, unless Kṛṣṇa gives, there is no question of happiness. Our business should be that we may not be uncomfortably living which will disturb our progress of Kṛṣṇa consciousness—that much. Other things? Depend on Kṛṣṇa. If He wants to make you Indra, you become Indra. There is no happiness even by becoming Indra. You... We read from books. Indra is how much disturbed, always fighting, devāsura. He has to fight. The same thing as here. Only difference is the standard of living in the heaven and the duration of life are greater. But if you have to struggle for existence, then what is the use of this duration of life, greater? Simply struggling, where is happiness? So in different planets, in different species of life... I see at night these small bugs. They have got the same happiness. The husband and wife or the male and female together, jumping and having sex, and everything in a different body. And same thing is going on in higher planetary system. There is no other business. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunam: eating, sleeping, sex, and defense. But breath must be there. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). So one who is intelligent: "So here is unhappiness. Why I'll have to die?" And that can be solved only by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no other.
Prabhupāda: After all, the thing is that so long we have got this body, the janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9), you have to accept. This is the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So the human endeavor should be diverted how to stop this repetition of birth and death. That is the prime instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says that,
- janma karma ca me divyaṁ
- yo jānāti tattvataḥ
- tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
- naiti mām eti...
- (BG 4.9)
So our movement is on that platform, how to stop. Our whole Vedic culture is based on that process. When Viśvāmitra Mahārāja went to see Daśaratha about..., Daśaratha Mahārāja inquired from Viśvāmitra, aihistaṁ(?) yat punar-janma-jayāya: "You are great saintly person. You are trying to conquer over birth and death. Is your process going on nicely?" Viśvāmitra inquired Daśaratha Mahārāja about royal activities, government, prosperity, because he was kṣatriya and he was brāhmaṇa. So my request... This, our Gītā philosophy, that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13). There must be a class of men, ideal brāhmaṇas; a class of men, ideal kṣatriyas; class of men, ideal vaiśyas; and balance, śūdras, to help. That will make the human society happy. Cooperate. Just like body. There are different departments: head department, then arms department, then the belly department and the leg department. If they are all in good condition, the health is all right. And now, at the present moment, I am suffering because my belly department is not working nicely. So we cannot neglect any department. There must be all the departments, and they must be cooperative and healthy. So this movement is meant for that purpose. It is the duty of government to give us protection.
Correspondence
1976 Correspondence
In New York I caught a cold and it continued for about one month of coughing at night without any sleep. But still I am travelling. I went from New York to London to Paris to Tehran to Bombay to Hyderabad to here.
So I am sorry to learn that you are not well. Pray to Krishna and chant Hare Krishna. The body is a temple of disease, janma mrtyu jara vyadhi (BG 13.9). Disease is our inevitable companion. We still have to execute our duty of Krishna consciousness as far as possible and Krishna will help us. We are going to have a very big project at Mayapur. We have to acquire 350 acres of land from the Government and construct a spiritual town at the expense of Rs. 200 Crores. The plans and contemplations are going on in different phases, now when Caitanya Mahaprabhu will be pleased it will be taken up.
| Page Title: | BG 13.08-12 amanitvam adambhitvam... cited (Con & Let) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, Visnu Murti |
| Created: | 01 of Mar, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=99, Let=1 |
| No. of Quotes: | 100 |