Expressions researched:
"The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision"
|"a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater"
|"brahmane gavi hastini"
|"panditah sama-darsinah"
|"suni caiva sva-pake ca"
|"vidya-vinaya-sampanne"
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes, so this will be difficult for the preachers, to see them not as Chinese but as actually Kṛṣṇa's servants too.
Prabhupāda: No, no, our devotees will not see like that. Our devotees will not see like that. (break) ...sama-darśinaḥ. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). A paṇḍita is sama-darśī. He does not see anyone as low or high. That is paṇḍita. There is a verse in Bhagavad-gītā, "One who sees Me in everything and everything in Me..." What is that verse?
Prabhupāda: So because we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, in Kṛṣṇa society, therefore we are dividing. Suppose one animal is born in India or in America. We don't take him as "my brother. He is also born in the same national." No. He kills it. He gives protection only to the animal with hands and legs, not to the animals who are four-legged. Because he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore his knowledge is imperfect. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). We are fighting between the different religions because there is no Kṛṣṇa religion, no eternal religion, temporary religion. "I am Christian," "I am Hindu ," "I am Muslim." Therefore, to solve all the problems the Kṛṣṇa consciousness: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ (BG 18.66). Take to Kṛṣṇa; everything will be solved. So they are reading Bhagavad-gītā but they do not know this. Therefore we have to preach. For thirteen years they are attending this Bhagavad-gītā class or Gītā Bhavan, but nobody knows that this is the Gītā, this is the fact. Why? (Hindi) You tell me. So Bhagavad-gita As It Is we are presenting, as it is. Then it will be nice. If you understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you'll be profited. If you make your irrelevant commentaries, that "Kṛṣṇa means this, and Pāṇḍava means this, and the Kurukṣetra means another thing, another thing," volumes of books and years together lecturing, what is benefit? You do not know the principles. Simply waste of time. Śrama eva hi kevalam.
Prabhupāda: How much low-graded people have become. They are completely under the laws of nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14), stringent laws of nature, and still, they are claiming, "I am God. I am this. I am that. I am free. I am..." And they do not mind, even they are degraded to the position of the worm of stool. But there is possibility. What is this worm of stool? It is also living entity. It is not a different thing. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that the worm of stool and Brahmā are the same living entity. Simply under different reaction of karma one has become Brahmā and another has become the stool worm. Now we begin.
Prabhupāda: You are not on the ātmā stage; I am not in the ātmā stage. You are in the bodily stage.
Guest (5): Both, body and soul, together...
Prabhupāda: Then if you are in the ātmā stage, then you have no argument with me. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Guest (5): But argument, you have admitted that...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no argument. That will stop. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54).
Guest (5): It is on arguments get down...
Prabhupāda: No. If you are... Just see. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, that:
If you are in the spiritual platform, then you will see a learned brāhmaṇa, a dog, a caṇḍāla, a elephant—they are in the same stage. So there is no argument because he sees a dog and the learned brāhmaṇa, the same position.
Prabhupāda: You may interpret in a different. Sama-darśi, this is plain word. Sama-darśi means there is no difference, that's all.
Guest (2): But sama-darśi equals sama-darśi. The sin and virtue are the same.
Prabhupāda: No, here... Yes, that is sama-darśinaḥ because here it is said clearly, vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇa (BG 5.18). A brāhmaṇa, learned brāhmaṇa, and vinaya, very humble... That is the sign of goodness. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne gavi hastini śunica. Śunica means dog. Now he is seeing a dog and a learned brāhmaṇa-same. Now, dog is supposed to be sinful, and this learned brāhmaṇa is supposed to be virtuous. Therefore his vision, the virtuous and the sinful, the same. That is sama-darśi.
Prabhupāda: So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example. Just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya. So qualitatively the ant, you are a learned brāhmaṇa, they are all the same category.
A paṇḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva, and Bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that. So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahma is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva.
Bob: If two people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, is their soul the same?
Prabhupāda: Soul is always the same.
Bob: In each person. In each person is it the same?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Soul, as spirit soul, pure soul, they are all equal. Even in animal. Therefore it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), means those who are actually learned, they do not see the outward covering, either human being or animal.
Prabhupāda: We accept anyone because we do not see the outward body. Just a gentleman is not interested with the outward dress, he is interested with the person he talks. Similarly, we are interested to see every person as spirit soul. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍita means learned. Sama-darśinaḥ.
"One who is actually learned, he sees everyone equally, either he is a very learned scholar or he is a dog or he is a caṇḍāla or he is an elephant." So how the learned scholar and dog can be seen on the equal level? Not that the dog and the learned scholar is equal, but seeing them equally means to see the spirit soul within the body. That vision. Outwardly, by the body, one is learned scholar and one is a dog. That is outwardly. But inwardly, everyone is spirit soul, Brahman. That is called brahma-darśana.
Guest (1): Are spirit souls alike, or are they different?
Prabhupāda: Alike. (laughter) The dress is different, the spirit soul is the same. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. A learned, really learned man, he sees everyone on the same level, because he sees to the spirit and he is (indistinct) that a learned brāhmaṇa, a dog, an elephant, a low-born, everyone is on the same category of spirit soul. That is the vision of a learned scholar. He does not make any discrimination that "Here is a dog" or "Here is a very learned scholar." His vision is the dog is also entangled by this body and a learned scholar is also entangled by this body, but both the dog and the learned scholar, both of them are spirit soul. That is actual vision. The same example, that I am talking with you, not with your dress. I am not very much concerned with your white dress or black dress. I am concerned with you as person. Similarly, we are concerned with the soul, not with the outward body. That is our position.
Prabhupāda: Now hundreds and thousands of these boys in Europe, America, Canada, Africa, everywhere, Australia, everywhere, they are now become devotees... So they're intelligent persons, they're coming from rich family. Why they have taken seriously? Because they have understood Bhagavad-gītā nicely. So I request that God is neither Indonesian, neither Indian, neither African, God is God. And He claims that all living entities, in any form... The form is superficial. The form is taken as dress. Just like you are dressed in a different way, I am dressed in a different way. But we are not talking to the dress, we are talking to the man who is putting on the dress. Similarly, this bodily distinction is material. But spiritually we are all one. There is no question of becoming Indian or Indonesian or African or Asian or this or that. And that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You know. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śvapāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Because paṇḍita does not see the outward dress, paṇḍita sees the inside, who is putting on the dress. Therefore, without misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, or being misled by so-called big, big leaders, if you try to understand Bhagavad-gītā as it is, it will be very nice, beneficial to everyone. That is my, not opinion, but is the fact. Things should be taken as it is. Call a spade a spade. Now, interpretation is required when things are not clear.
Prabhupāda: If we accept God is the center point, father, then I can understand you are my brother. Because you are also son of God; I am also son of God. But I am missing the father, then we miss also our mutual relationship. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he does not make any distinction between a tree or a man or animal or a brāhmaṇa or a caṇḍāla because he sees that within the body there is the soul, and the soul is spirit, part and parcel of God. That is his vision.
Hṛdayānanda: Shivananda, I gave a lecture at an āśrama where his disciple was teaching, Vishnu Devananda. So he told a story how Shivananda, he would find out the lowest class of people, and he would go and garland them and worship them just like the Deity. And so his argument was that in Bhagavad-gītā it says, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Why he is to the lower class? Sama-darśinaḥ means he is equal to higher or lower. Why he is going to the lower? He could not answer this? Sama-darśinaḥ, equal. Then he must be equal to the lower and the higher. So why he is particularly to the lower class? Then he is not sama-darśinaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Why you should neglect the animal community?
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is right.
Prabhupāda: That is also community.
Dr. Patel: That is why twenty-four avatāras have been shown to us in Bhāgavata, from fish to the highest.
Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). If one is paṇḍita, he does not make any distinction between animal community and human community.
Dr. Patel: Śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
Prabhupāda: Ah, that is paṇḍita. As soon as you see, "This is animal community, this is human community," then you are not paṇḍita. You are still in, equal learning. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54).
Prabhupāda: There is also Paramātmā. It does not mean because he's dog, there is no Paramātmā. There is also Paramātmā. Because Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa does not discriminate that "I shall not remain within the body of dog. I shall remain within the body of a brāhmaṇa only." No. Sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. This is samatā, that... Because a devotee can understand that Kṛṣṇa is there within the dog, within the cat... Simi...,
He knows that in everywhere, in every body, there is the Paramātmā. And ātmā also. Then samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu.
Prabhupāda: And then, now they have manufactured United Nations. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united, but when I go New York, I see flags are increasing, no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform.
Yogeśvara: He says that knowledge isn't sufficient. You have to have enough love of mankind so that these things will be put into practice.
Prabhupāda: If you have love of mankind, then you'll kill the cows. That is not love. I love you and kill this man. That is not love. Why? Why for loving you I shall kill him? What is that love? That is not love. Love means... You see the description of love is there, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ.
That is not love, "I love you and kill your brother." That's all.
M. Roche-dieu: Yes, but true knowledge is, we think, love.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you do not know what is love. You love somebody and you kill others.
M. Roche-dieu: No, no.
Prabhupāda: That is not love. If you love God, then you will love all His sons.
Yogeśvara: Here's that verse.
Prabhupāda: Here is the verse.
Yogeśvara:
(reads French translation)
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that.
Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge?
Yogeśvara: Because the real problem is not poverty. That they haven't understood.
Prabhupāda: This is karma. If you have bad karma, then you must suffer by the laws of nature. You may be a rich man's son or king's son.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Christ, he actually also said that. There's one verse in the Bible. Christ said, "The poor you will always have with you, but I will not be with you always." He said that also. They misunderstand.
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Therefore I said Jesus Christ is son of God, so what he says and what Kṛṣṇa says, there is no difference. This has become a hackneyed slogan, "poor feeding." To do to the humanity—and cut the throat of the animal. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy? They have no conception of God. If he has got conception of God, then everyone—paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Oh, why for the benefit of the human being, other animals' throat should be cut? Even they have no common sense. National. National means one who is born in that land. That is national. So why the animals born in that land, they are not national?
Madhudviṣa: The question was, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that he wanted to know what you are thinking about India, India's...
Prabhupāda: I am not thinking of India. I am not thinking of India. I am thinking for the whole human society. Why shall I think for India? Vasudhā eva kuṭumbakam. When we become God conscious, then we don't think in that way, "I am Indian," "I am Englishman," "I am Australian," "I am this," no. We don't think. This is the crippled thinking of the materialistic person. Paṇḍitāḥ sama darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Find out this verse.
Cāru:
"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater."
Prabhupāda: Because our vision is from the standard of the soul. The soul is there in elephant as well as in the learned scientist. So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), means a learned, advanced, spiritualist, he sees that everyone is soul. The body, material body, is dress. Just like we are talking with Dr. such and such, not with the dress. We are not interested with the dress, but we are interested with you, person. Similarly, these bodies are dresses, different dresses, according to the price he has paid. According to his work, nature gives him. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Are these living entities constant? They don't change any.
Prabhupāda: Yes, nitya, nitya. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). Why don't you see these references? It is never created. It is ever-existing, eternal. Only it appears to be temporary on account of accepting different material bodies. Therefore, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who knows, he knows that he has changed his body, the same person. Just like father, mother knows. When a son becomes very stout and strong, the mother sees that same child. Others may be bewildered. One who has seen the child very long ago, now he has become robust build. He cannot say. And the mother says, "He is my child, that child." So paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Ambassador: I never managed to love them. I can love most things, but not crocodiles.
Prabhupāda: No, they are also God's creature, but covered by the body. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Those who are spiritually advanced, they see equally because they know that within the body the spirit soul is there. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. He is encaged somehow or other in a particular type of body. So a devotee of God is very kind to everyone. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na ka..., samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). Samaḥ sarveṣu..., mad-bhakti labhate param. That is the stage of making advance in devotional life—equality. That equality is possible when we are on the platform of spiritual understanding. Otherwise not possible. The United Nation will never be able to unite the nation. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: (Says something in Hindi) (break) ...different desires, they are getting different conditions of life. Therefore we find so many species and forms of life.
Guest (Indian Press Representative): Is it possible, some of our..., is it possible on the spiritual platform?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only platform where...
Guest: But do you think that...
Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). That is after being brahma-bhūtaḥ.
Carol: How is the love to be understood? Between people or through inner sort of communication with a higher self?
Gaṇeśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda said that you could not understand the simple instruction, so where is the question of understanding philosophy? Not love. Philosophy.
Prabhupāda: You have no love, because you are accustomed to kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God, and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone for one's personal benefit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). A paṇḍita, philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher?
Jesuit: When he reaches a higher state of activity, where he really loves all mankind, and he loves God...
Prabhupāda: That is a kind of concoction.
Jesuit: A kind of?
Prabhupāda: Concoction, mental speculation. Why should you love mankind? Why not tiger?
Jesuit: Because they are my brothers and sisters.
Prabhupāda: So, brother and sister everyone loves? In the family, everyone loves his brother and sister. Does it mean that he's a very big man?
Jesuit: Because there is a common father, God is the father of all...
Prabhupāda: Yes, common fellow, that is... (To devotee:) Who can read Bhagavad-gītā? Bring Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this verse:
Vidyā, vidyā. Call Paramahaṁsa. (indistinct)
Devotee: Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne?
Prabhupāda: Ha.
Devotee: 5.18
Prabhupāda: (inaudible)
Devotee:
Translation: "The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision the learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater (outcaste)."
Prabhupāda: Mm. Just read again.
Devotee: "The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision...
Prabhupāda: Equal vision.
Jesuit: Equal vision.
Prabhupāda: Equal vision.
Jesuit: What does that mean, equal vision?
Prabhupāda: Equal vision means that I don't make any distinction between you and a dog.
Jesuit: You make no distinction...
Prabhupāda: No, this is spiritual vision because a paṇḍita, paṇḍita means learned man, his equal vision means he does not make any difference between the souls. The dog has got also soul and the learned scholar has got also soul. But the soul is covered by the dog's body, and here the soul is covered by the learned scholar's body. Actually both of them are souls, part and parcel of God.
Jesuit: Would you think that their souls are of different value, the soul of the dog...?
Prabhupāda: No, soul is of the same value.
Devotee: He says how do you feel about Mao Tse-tung?
Director: In China he's the ideal man.
Devotee: He's a Communist.
Prabhupāda: His ideal is all right. His ideal, Communist idea that everyone should be happy, that is good idea. But they do not know how make ev... Just like they are taking care of the human being in the state, but they are sending poor animals to the slaughterhouse. Because they are godless, they do not know the animal is also a living being and the human being also living being. So for the satisfaction of the tongue of the human being the animal should be cut throat. That is the defect. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he is equal to everyone. That is learned. "I take care of my brother and I kill you," that is not right. That is going on. Everywhere. Nationalism. Nation... National means one who has taken birth in that land. But the animal, poor animal, because they cannot make any protest, send them to the slaughterhouse. And if there were ideal men, they would have protested, "Oh, why you are doing this? Let them live also. You live also.
Just produce food grains. The animals can also take, you can also take. Why should you take animal?" That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty, no central point. You have got your own philosophy. I have got my own philosophy. He has got his own philosophy. Now, how we will agree?
Yogi Bhajan: No, I may not agree with your philosophy, and you may not agree with my philosophy, but one thing we both have agreed that you are you, and I am I, and both can have respect and love for each other. And there has to be a place where everybody should be given that opportunity.
Prabhupāda: That is going on. When I meet you I say, "Yes sir." You say, "Yes sir." That is all right. That is social etiquette. But real unity is on the platform of spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍita, he is sama-darśina. So paṇḍitāḥ means
"A very learned brāhmaṇa and a dog and an elephant, a cow, a caṇḍāla—all of them, to a paṇḍita, really learned person, sama-darśinaḥ." You see? So now how a learned scholar brāhmaṇa and a dog can be seen on equal level? But it can be seen. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). It is on the spiritual platform, that every one of us is spirit soul. We are, by different karma, we are covered with different material dress. A dog is also a soul, and a learned brāhmaṇa is also a soul. But he is covered with different body, and he is covered with different body. So one who does not see the body, he can see on the same level. But one who sees the body, he cannot see. This is the basic principle of equality. I am seeing you are Sikh, you are seeing I am Hindu, he is seeing he is Christian, he is Mohammedan, and so on, so on. And nobody is seeing that nobody is brāhmaṇa. Nobody is seeing nobody is Hindu, nobody is Christian—he is pure soul. So that vision, unless one attains, how there can be equality? There is no possibility.
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's agreed. But...
Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā... samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible.
Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception... Just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you "... If I say, "I don't like you"... Naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality.
Bahulāśva: Prabhupāda said that those who are on the mental platform will argue that the animal has no soul. They will be hankering and lamenting...
Prabhupāda: These are the signs of material platform.
Jayatīrtha: On the spiritual platform you're able to see all living beings equally, but on the mental platform...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Find out this verse.
Jayatīrtha: ...gods are also included in this human species.
Prabhupāda: Different types of... Kinnara, 400,000.
Brahmānanda: Also different planets?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But everyone can become devotee. There is no harm. It is not that because one is in the lower species, he cannot become a devotee. Everyone can become a devotee. (break) ...yoni, they can also become perfect devotee. (break) This is the power of God. He can deliver anyone without any consideration. Therefore paṇḍita is sama-darśinaḥ, he does not make these divisions. He sees that "He is spirit soul. So let him be delivered." That's all. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśināh (BG 5.18). Materially there is division. He is black, he is white, he is this, he is that. This is material. Spiritually, there is no division. One. (break) They make, what is called, spiritual division also. That is their foolishness. Spiritually there is no division. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param (BG 18.54). Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate param. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (end)
Brahmānanda: Well, the idea is that the haircuts of the men are so long, they look like...
Prabhupāda: Dog.
Brahmānanda: ...shaggy dogs.
Prabhupāda: After all, all these questions can be solved if people become Kṛṣṇa conscious. There is no such discrimination. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. These distinctions are there on the material platform. On the spiritual platform there is no such distinction.
Brahmānanda: So that is something that the reporters did not understand. This point was not discussed very fully, that actually we don't, we are not unkind to women, we are not exploiting them as others do because one who is in the spiritual life he feels he is equal to... Men, women does not matter.
Prabhupāda: So you can write that spiritually, there is no such distinction. Spiritually, Kṛṣṇa says that "Although there is distinction in the material field, low and high, but one who takes shelter of Me..." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. Find out this verse.
Brahmānanda:
"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas, merchants, as well as śūdras, workers—can approach the supreme destination. Purport. It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material... (break)
Prabhupāda: We give Kṛṣṇa consciousness both to the woman and man equally. We do not make any such distinction. But to protect them from this exploitation by man, we teach something, that "You do like this. You do like that. You be married. Be settled up. Don't wander independently." We teach them like that. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, we equally distribute. There is no such thing that "Oh, you are woman, less intelligent or more intelligent. Therefore you cannot come." We don't say that. We welcome women, men, poor, rich, everyone, because in that platform equality.
We do not refuse anyone. That is equality.
Rāmeśvara: He asked if you were, Śrīla Prabhupāda, if you were familiar with another yoga society founded by one swami called Yogananda. He called it the Self-Realization Fellowship. And they have a practice to recruit wealthy men as their members. He simply asked if you knew of that.
Guest: Do you think that this hinders with their development?
Prabhupāda: No. Spirit soul is the same thing either in wealthy man or poor man. The spirit soul is not different. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,
If Yogananda thinks like that—"Only rich man is able to practice yoga"—that is wrong. A poor man can also practice yoga. Because yoga means connecting, linking up with the Supreme. So as spirit soul, everyone is fit to connect himself with the Supreme. That is the statement in the Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class self-realization, when one tries to connect himself with the Supreme. And the Supreme can be connected by anyone. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). According to Vedic philosophy, one becomes poor on account of his sinful activities. So pāpa-yoni... So although he has taken birth in a degraded family or poor family, spiritually he is pure. Simply one has to revive his spiritual consciousness. And that cannot be checked by any material condition.
Lalitā: (Bengali) ...Māyāpur... (Bengali) ...Vṛndāvana... (Bengali) ...Hare Kṛṣṇa mandir... (Bengali) ...Guru Mahārāja... (Bengali) They are so impressed, the way they are putting the śaṇkha and then, you know, ārati... (Bengali) The same time the door opens and the same time the śaṇkha. (Bengali) Sincere, sincere devotee.
Prabhupāda: Sincere devotee. (Bengali) At least... (Bengali) ...hundred men come... (Bengali) They have nothing to do with the
politics. (Bengali) Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). (Bengali) Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅksati (BG 18.54), samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. (Bengali) ...India government... (Bengali)
Indian woman: Everyone, every state, this is true. Sometimes I go to preaching. I not looking "Asian," or such and such. Anyone I go to preach.
Prabhupāda: We are all part and parcel of God. The outward dress only makes difference that "I am African," "I am Indian," "I am this." Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Therefore one who is learned, he does not make that difference. That is accidental, that by... You can say acci... That is also not accidental, but some way or other, it has become so. The dress is different. But our movement is not with the dress but with the living being who has the dress. This is movement. Our, this is completely spiritual movement.
Devotee (9): What I meant to say is he does not want to chant with women in the temple room. I have seen this before. He says, "I do not want to chant in a room with women. I would rather be away from the women."
Prabhupāda: That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not yet paṇḍit. Paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. So what is the value of his words? He is a fool.
Indian man (4): So he'll go first to make...
Prabhupāda: He should always consider, "There is woman, that's all. She is my mother." That's all. Matṛvāt para-dareṣu. Then what is the...? Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But he is not so strong; then he should go to the forest. Why he should live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He will walk on the street closing the eyes? (laughter) This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees, simply rascals.
Prabhupāda: Dhīra means sober. Sober, yes. Just like high-court judge. He judges everything very... (break) ...then he gives his judgment.
Indian man (7): Attention.
Prabhupāda: Full attention. And attention means with good intelligence, (dog barking) not foolishly. (Hindi) That "You are not body. Why you are fighting?" Will they hear? (Hindi) That "My dear dog, you are not this body. Why you are fighting?" He will never understand. Similarly, if a man does not understand, he is no better than the dog.
Dr. Patel: śuni caiva śva-pākeṣu paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore we like everyone. We do not reject anyone. Dog cannot understand the philosophy. Therefore we call him and give some prasādam. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: In the material concept of life the tree is thinking, "I am tree," the dog is thinking, "I am dog," I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking something else. So this is jīva-bhūta. And when he understands that ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is brahma-bhūta. Simple thing. Ekatvam. Ekatvam...
Dr. Patel: Anupaśyati.
Prabhupāda: Anupaśyati. That ekatvam, when he actually becomes brahma-bhūtaḥ—we understand that all these living entities, we are part and parcel of God, paṇḍitaḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18)—that is ekatvam, that "We are all servants." But the rascals are thinking,"I am master."
Prabhupāda: The bodily consciousness is also material. That is also one. And the soul consciousness, spiritual, that is also one. That is ekatvam. So for a learned person there is no defect. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini, paṇḍitaḥ samaḥ (BG 5.18). This is the... So anyone who is under the bodily conception of life, either human beings or dogs, they are the same. But that upādhi amongst human being is stronger than the cats and dogs. The human being, being advanced in consciousness, they are making this nationalism. But it is nothing but dogism. Is it not? That's all. The so-called national people are sacrificing so many lives, so many politicians, Napoleon and these big, big leaders. But what is their business? Business is that doggish mentality: "I am this body." So it is very difficult to give up this doggish mentality that "I am this body." Very, very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Sarvaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 13.28), that I have explained so many times. If you see materially either dog or a big brāhmaṇa, the body is the same material. Body, when you dissect the body you find the same blood, same muscle, same bone. That's all. That is material. And spiritually they are atmān. Therefore sama-darśinaḥ. From that point of view, from basic point of view. Not that he is seeing a brāhmaṇa and dog equal. No. Not that. He is seeing the outward and inward. Inward is spirit. That is one. And outward, matter, that is one.
Dr. Patel: Another is śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the same thing, because he does not see the form; he sees the ingredients. Just like there are so many earthen pots, dolls. So any sane man knows that these are all made of earth. That's all. That vision is wanted, but these rascals, they are thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am fat," "I am this," "I am that." Therefore they are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: No, why passport? Even in our country, Mahātmā Gandhi was also infected: "Quit India." "Quit India."
Dr. Patel: No, he did not mean quit India. He meant "You quit your matter of ruling." I mean actually...
Prabhupāda: It was the exact word, "Quit India."
Dr. Patel: You know it more than me, sir, that in 1929 he told Britishers that "You rule India from the basis of they are ruling Canada." So he offered to give them ultimatum. Britishers did know real stuff of India, otherwise they would have acted better.
Prabhupāda: That's not.... As soon as you think "He is my enemy and he is my friend," then there is no education. That's all. This is standard of education. Ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu. That is education. Sama darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva (BG 5.18). That is education. That is.... Kṛṣṇa says, nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Nanu śocanti paṇḍitāḥ. "Ah, you are rascal." It is not the business of the paṇḍita to think like that. He never thought that the Kauravas were the enemy. No. That is not the fact. It is duty to fight the just cause. That was His instruction.
Dr. Patel: Mr. Nehru said Kṛṣṇa was the greatest war-monger.
Prabhupāda: And he is a rascal.
Harikeśa: I mean, after all, all this talk about God was simply there because of man's desire to explain the unknown. He saw a thunderbolt and...
Prabhupāda: It is unknown to the rascal man. It is known to the sober man. (laughter) He should become sober instead of becoming a rascal. That is required. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne (BG 5.18). Ācāryavān puruṣo veda: "He knows, who has accepted the ācārya." This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Rāmakrishna Mission.
Acyutānanda: No, Salvation Army.
Prabhupāda: Salvation Army, oh.
Hari-śauri: "All these appearances are due to the mother, material nature, and Kṛṣṇa's seed-giving process. The purport is that the living entities, being impregnated in the material world, come out and form at the time of creation according to their past deeds."
Prabhupāda: Now if the child is.... If the father puts the seed in the black wife, the child may come in black body. In the white body, the child may come in white body. So the body is different according to the mother, but the soul is the same. One gets the body according to the body of the mother. But either in the black body or the white body the soul is the same. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). This simple truth they cannot understand, common sense. In one minute it can be understood. The father..., mother is there and the child is there. So there must be father. How one can deny?
Prabhupāda: There is no distinction between man and woman. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpā-yonayaḥ striyo śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). The first is mentioned, striya. Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ. These classes are understood to be less intelligent-woman, śūdra, and the vaiśyas. But Kṛṣṇa says, "No, even for them it is open." Because in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, man, woman, or black, white, or big or small. No. Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ (BG 5.18), one who is actually learned, he is sama-darśinaḥ. He does not make any distinction. But so far our material body is concerned, there must be some distinction for keeping the society in order.
Woman: The women could become paṇḍitas, then.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Not only come, she can also attain perfection. There is no such restriction. Kṛṣṇa said.
Woman: Do you have any paṇḍitas in the Western movement?
Prabhupāda: There are so many Western woman, girls, in our society. They are chanting, dancing, taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Of course, because superficially, bodily, there is some distinction, so we keep women separately from men, that's all. Otherwise, the rights are the same.
Prabhupāda: How to control senses, that is the beginning of life. Not ABCD learning and maybe your character may be less than an animal's, and you have got a degree of the university. You become a learned man. No. That is not accepted. Even from moral instruction, who is educated? That is described by Canakya Pandit.
Here is paṇḍita. That is learned man. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi (BG 5.18). He is learned man. Not this degree holder. A degree holder, he has no tapasya, he has no character and his knowledge is called māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. Although he has learned so many things, but māyā has taken away his knowledge. He's a rascal. He's animal. This is Vedic civilization. (break)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This question here is "In doctrinal content and mode of individual and collective worship..." Is that to say that in your preaching in the Western countries and your preaching in India, you haven't attempted... In the Western countries where there is so many mlecchas, outcastes, so to speak.
Prabhupāda: That is accepted by Kṛṣṇa. Even one is mleccha. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). So there is no question. That is artificial. One is mleccha or one is brāhmaṇa, but that is artificial. That is skin. But within the skin of the mleccha or the brāhmaṇa the same spirit soul is there. Therefore those who are paṇḍita, those who are learned,
One who is actually learned, he sees the same spirit soul within the brāhmaṇa, within the mleccha, within the cat. (end)
Prabhupāda: So we are already Brahman, there is no question of becoming Brahman. We are mistaking something else, that "I am not Brahman." So when we come to the actual understanding, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage. Brahmā-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu... (BG 18.54). Then he see everyone on equal level, that every soul is Brahman.
That is sama-darśinaḥ. He sees the same soul within a learned brāhmaṇa and within a dog. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. That is the stage of bhakti.
Mr. Boyd: Well, for two and a half years I've been getting this from my daughter, that women cannot be reincarnated, and it didn't make sense to me. But I've asked questions and looked through the books as much as I could, and I haven't been able to find anything that said that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That verse, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya (BG 9.32).
Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brāhmaṇa or... Everyone is spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is a śūdra. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement says striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrāḥ: (BG 9.32) never mind, even if you are śūdra, take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter, or any other pāpa-yoni, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ, te 'pi yānti parām (BG 9.32). So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then you become perfect. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand. They vision everything from materialistic point of view. They have no idea of spiritual life, therefore they misunderstand. But if we read thoroughly Bhagavad-gītā, then everything is clear.
Interviewer: ...Was the most important thing. Would that ever allow you to or any one of the devotees, to engage in practices that would be considered unjust or criminal in a broader society?
Prabhupāda: That is his interest.
Interviewer: In terms of, you know, "This is for Kṛṣṇa. This is for developing God consciousness..."
Prabhupāda: No, if you are interested in Kṛṣṇa, you are interested for everyone. And if you are interested for a particular person, society, then you are not interested in Kṛṣṇa. The example I can give you. Just like if you supply food to your stomach, then you supply food to your eyes, ears, hands, legs, everything. But if you supply food to your eyes, then you become blind.
Bali-mardana: He wants to know that would you be justified in doing something that society would consider criminal, like, say...
Rāmeśvara: Like stealing for Kṛṣṇa, or killing for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Killing?
Rāmeśvara: If it is... Something that is judged by, say, the US government as criminal, would be still do it if it was for Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, we do not do anything which is harmful to the society. We do not do anything, not only to the human society. To the animal society, to the tree society, to the aquatic society, we do not do anything. We do not support the slaughterhouse, killing the animals. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to see every living entity on the same level. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). We are not cruel to anyone. Either he's a man or animal or tree or bird.
Vipramukhya:. These Turks are yavanas? Demons and yavanas?
Prabhupāda: Materially there are so many divisions, but spiritual they are all servant of Kṛṣṇa. Nobody is yavana, nobody is brāhmaṇa. Everyone is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). We are going there not to make the yavanas a brāhmaṇa. That is not our mission. Our business is... We know that he is servant of Kṛṣṇa. Forgetting Kṛṣṇa, he's thinking himself as Turkish, as Muhammadan, as Jewish, as Christian. This is his disease. So let me cure his disease. Why he should be called yavana? That is artificial. He's Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Jivera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Just like when a physician treats a patient, does he think that here is a Christian, here is a Muhammadan, here is a Hindu? He takes as patient. Never mind what he is. And he gives treatment. He never thinks that here is a Christian patient, here is a Muhammadan patient. He is patient. Give me this, bring him medicine. That is physician's business. Why should we consider, "Here is a Christian patient. He should be treated differently than the Muhammadan." Does he think like that? Does he think? Does any physician honestly think that "Here is a Christian patient, special care should be taken for him?" No. If he is physician, he should give the equal treatment to everyone.
Prabhupāda: So anyone can be raised to the highest platform. Caṇḍālo 'pi dvija-śreṣṭho hari-bhakti-parāyaṇa.(?) Even one is born as caṇḍāla... Caṇḍāla means less than the śūdras. The dog-eaters. Caṇḍālas. Śva-paca. They are called śva-paca. Śva means dog and paca means cooker. One who cooks the... There are still so many. In Korea, in China, in Hong Kong. They eat dogs.
Indian man: They consider it a delicacy. I had a German priest staying with me last year and he was telling me that he had wonderful soup. And when he found out what was the soup, he said, "Well, didn't you see the puppy that was going about this morning? It is soup of the same puppy."
Prabhupāda: In Hong Kong. Yes. In Hong Kong you won't find street dogs. They'll eat them. So in India also there are dog-eaters. In Assam you'll find. They make kukura-piṭhā. Kukura-piṭhā means that first of all the dog is given to eat some rice preparation with gur (Indian brown sugar). And pushing, pushing. When he dies, then it is roasted. Then that is very good food. (laughter) Kukura-piṭhā. The Assamese, they eat. There are different nations. Śva-paca, this word is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne brāhmaṇe gavi hastini śuni caiva śva-pāke ca (BG 5.18). This śva-pāke means this caṇḍāla. One who eats a dog. Śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ. So everyone can be raised to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: No, Pālikā can do. I know that.
Akśayananda: She is expert.
Prabhupāda: She is expert in typing. Amongst the women, she is expert typist. She is expert in so many things. Only defect is that she is woman. But Kṛṣṇa says, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyaḥ: "Never mind woman. If she is devotee, she also comes to Me." Striyaḥ śūdrās tathā, "no one barred." Especially naming, striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśya te 'pi yānti parām. Everyone is to be.... Kṛṣṇa is so kind. There is no restriction. Everyone is open to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya-nitya kṛṣṇa dāsa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). This is open to all living entities. There is no restriction. And so long this body is there, material, there is distinction between this and that. Otherwise, when you come to the platform of spiritual understanding, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), then there is no restriction. Higher, lower, this, that, so many. Gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). So any newspaper propaganda against us? No. One complaint is standing, that with our life members and others, subscriber, they always complain they are not getting paper, they are not getting book. That is the general complaint.
Dr. Ramachandra: I only want that your movement should utilize my services because I believe service to mankind is service to God.
Prabhupāda: No, no, service to God is service to mankind. If you pour water in the root, then it is service to the tree. And if you pour water on the leaf, then nobody is served. Everything will be dry, that's all. That is imperfect service. If you have got realization of God, why should you give only human being service? Why not tiger? He is also... Kṛṣṇa says, "They are also My sons." That means you discriminate. That is not that... Father will be satisfied when all the sons are given, not partial, not partial. Suppose I have got five children. If you give service to one children, so I'll ask that "Why not other children?" Naturally.
Dr. Ramachandra: Discrimination comes.
Prabhupāda: Discrimination comes. So if you have realized God, then you must be learned. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Dr. Ramachandra: Śuni caiva śva-pāke ca paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Prabhupāda: Why you make distinction, daridra-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa? If Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why not dhanī? So our vision is either he is dhanī or daridra, he is blind because he does not know God.
Dr. Ramachandra: You want to give light.
Prabhupāda: That's all. We do not discriminate in that way. We discriminate in this way, that "Here is a man who knows about God, and here is a man who does not know."
Indian man: ...a portion which says that when she went there and...
Prabhupāda: So that may be, whatever is there, but Rūpa Gosvāmī had no reason to refuse seeing a woman.
Indian man: No, but, that... Which Gosvāmī?
Prabhupāda: No, any Gosvāmī. Because the Gosvāmīs were so popular that amongst the villagers, when there was some disagreement between family members they used to come to him and say to him, "Bābā, (Hindi)." That means in that way he had to see many women many times. Why he should refuse? And what is the meaning of refusing if one, anybody... Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu did not refuse, but women used to offer their respect from little distance, not very near. That was Caitanya Mahāprabhu's restriction. But in our association there is no such thing as refusing anyone the opportunity. Kṛṣṇa does not say. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyaḥ śūdrās tathā vaiśyāḥ (BG 9.32). He does not make any... And so far my institute is concerned, we do not make such thing. Everyone should be given chance. But we have restriction that we should mix with women very cautiously. You should not have any illicit sex. These things are there.
Indian man: No, that is of course...
Prabhupāda: But why a woman should be refused? This is not authentic. Why Rūpa Gosvāmī should refuse her? They were bhikṣu, madhukarī. So when one goes for bhikṣā, so how he can check that he will not see any woman? How it is possible? He has to go to the householder, "Mataji, a cāpāṭi lijiye."(?) Or he'll stand. Generally woman comes to give cāpāṭi. So how it is possible to restrict the eyes? That is, he does not...I think I cannot accept this, that Rūpa Gosvāmī refused. Why he should refuse? Vaiṣṇava is kind. But we must mix with women cautiously. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says yāre dekha tāre kaha kṛṣṇa-upadeśa (CC Madhya 7.128). He never says, "Only to the men."
Indian man: But this body designations are not necessary in this preaching.
Prabhupāda: As far one who is paṇḍita, in the position of Rūpa Gosvāmī, for him, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18).
Indian man: He'll see woman and man equal.
Prabhupāda: There is no difference. And if he makes such distinction, then how he's paṇḍita? Then he's not paṇḍita. But it is etiquette, mātā svasā duhitā vā. One should not very closely sit down even with mother, sister, and daughter. That restriction is there. But that does not mean that one should not see even a woman. So we are following that principle. Never mind, man or woman, she can offer her respect, but not very near. That restriction must be there. (break) We have support from very high circle. Scholar, priest, even father, mother, parent. Many old gentlemen come to congratulate me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come to this country." In Los Angeles they have been very nice. Many parents used to come. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: I said in some public meeting in Melbourne, "The United Nation is the assembly of some dogs. They are barking." And newspapermen added, "The Swami has come to hound you." (laughter) Eh? What is that?
Hari-śauri: "His Divine Grace is here to hound us."
Prabhupāda: Hound. Yes. So I attacked the whole United Nations, and so they attacked me also.
Dr. Patel: No, we have seen the League of Nations was even better than the United Nations. They are all really fighting among themselves very badly.
Prabhupāda: Now how they cannot fight? They are swines and dogs. How they will remain peaceful? It is not possible. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Unless they are spiritually elevated they cannot be peaceful. It is impossible. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Simply by stamping.
Dr. Patel: And there is another class of...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi became mahātmā, but his mission was, "Get out, Englishmen, get out." Where is samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu? He declared himself mahātmā, but his business was how to drive away the Englishmen.
So after surrendering to Krishna, that will be the final receptable for investing his love: in God. If somehow or other anyone develops their dormant love of God—love of god is present there in everyone, just like fire is there in the unlit match, covered-over—if Krishna becomes the Supreme Adorable Objectality, the Supreme Friend, the Supreme Master, the Supreme Lover—then, oh, he shall never again become disappointed or unhappy. Rather, because his loving propensity is rightfully placed,
mac-citta mad-gata-prana, bodhayantah parasparam
kathayantas ca mam nityam, tusyanti ca ramanti ca,
the devotee, one whose life is surrendered to Krishna, is always enjoying "great satisfaction and bliss" and he is constantly "enlightened", always positive, not negative as you say. The advanced devotee is the friend of everyone: yoga-yukto visuddhatma, purified soul engaged in loving devotional service to Krishna, sarvabhutatmabhutatma, he is dear to everyone and everyone is dear to him; and in another place Krishna claims that: yo mad bhakta sa me priya, that His devotee who is very dear to Him, advesta sarva-bhutanam, maitah karuna eva ca, is not envious but is the kind friend to all living entities. The devotee is supposed to be, furthermore, equal to everyone, panditah sama-darsinah (BG 5.18), never discriminating; this one good, this one bad, no.
So these are the descriptions of the more advanced stages of Krishna Consciousness devotees, when has got mature knowledge by development, and at present many of our students are young boys, they are learning gradually and the process is so effective, certain, and authorized that if they stick to it they will come to the right point, as you say, of loving. But that love is not material, that is our point, so it may not be judged on the on the false sentimental platform of ordinary mundane dealings. So to say they are not loving, that maybe true from the materialists point of view—they have given up affection for family, friends, wife, country, race, like that, all based upon the bodily concept of life or flickering sense-gratification—they have become little detached from Maya's love, or lust, and they want Krishna's love, or endless, full, rewarding love, but they have not yet developed to that point, that's all and we cannot expect that all of a sudden, being addicted to so many bad habits, your countrymen, will give up eating flesh, taking intoxication, sex-life, and so many other nasty things, and become overnight great self-realized souls. That is not possible. That is utopian. Just becoming initiated as Krishna's devotee puts him in the topmost category of human society: sa buddhiman manusyesu, sa yuktah krtsna-karma-krt: (BG 4.18) "he is intelligent among human society, he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in sorts of activities". And such devotee, no matter he has not advanced yet to the highest level of spiritual understanding, still he is to be considered the most exalted personality never mind he has got any temporary frailties:
api cet suduracaro, bhajate mam ananya-bhak,
sadhur eva sa mantavyah, samyag vyavasito hi sah
"Even if a devotee commits the most abominable actions, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated,". As you will say, "To err is human", so in the neophyte stage we may always expect some discrepancies are there. Kindly see the things in this light and forgive their small mistakes. The big thing is they have given their life, everything to Krishna—that is never a mistake.
Please accept my greetings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated August 19, 1975 redirected to me from New York. Regarding your question, God does not discriminate, but so long as we have got forms we have to discriminate. Without God consciousness the discrimination is there. Why should think that you are American or that he is an Indian? Upon this platform of discrimination the whole philosophy of nationalism, communism, this ism and that ism is going on. When one learns how to see individual persons without discrimination, then he becomes perfect. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: vidya vinyaya sampanne/ brahmane gavi hastini/ suni caiva svapake ca/ panditah sama darsinah (BG 5.18). "The humble sage by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater (outcaste.)" It is only on the spiritual platform or Krishna consciousness or God consciousness platform that there is no such discrimination. So if you remain on the material platform and artificially desire no discrimination it is not possible.
We are preaching therefore this Krishna consciousness movement so that we may not have material discrimination. The soul has nothing to do with the body. The body is of different varieties calculated to be 8,400,000 forms. The soul is the same passing through different bodies by the process of transmigration. It is exactly like gold passing through business transaction, but when it is in the hands of somebody he thinks that it is "my gold," and when it is passed through another's hands, he thinks it is "my gold." Similarly the soul being as gold when he is situated in a particular body, it identifies with the bodily position, and each and every body is different from the other. So long the soul is in ignorance and identifies with the body, how can there be equality? So unless one is raised to spiritual understanding, there is no question of equality on the bodily platform. This is a scientific calculation.
Women claim to be equal, so that now they are thinking that they do not want to become pregnant, so they are killing their own child. What kind of equality is this that it creates another's suffering? As soon as the body is different how can there be equality? We see that woman cannot work so hard as a man, and women can do work that a man cannot do, so where is there equality?
Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your very nice letter dated 18th April, 1977.
We are not concerned with the skin but with the soul. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is:
"The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater (outcaste)."
So Krsna consciousness means not to make any distinctions of black or white, Christian or Muslim or Hindu, African, American or Indian. Krsna claims everyone as His son. This movement of Krsna consciousness is an attempt to enlighten the whole world on the spiritual platform. We are trying to do this. Please try to help us. By your letter, you appear to be a very intelligent young man. Try to understand this whole philosophy and work cooperatively with Brahmananda Swami to spread Krsna consciousness to all of your countrymen.
Your letter is so nice that I have asked that it be published in our Back to Godhead magazine. Thank you very much for your nice sentiments. I hope this meets you well.
| Page Title: | BG 05.18 vidya-vinaya-sampanne... cited (Con & Let) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas |
| Created: | 25 of Feb, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=1, Con=53, Let=3 |
| No. of Quotes: | 57 |