BG 04.13 catur-varnyam maya srstam... cited (Con & Let)

Expressions researched:
"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them" |"although I am the creator of this system" |"catur-varnyam maya srstam" |"guna karma vibhagasah" |"guna-karma-vibhagasah" |"tasya kartaram api mam" |"the four divisions of human society are created by Me" |"viddhy akartaram avyayam" |"you should know that I am yet the nondoer"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query: "4.13" or "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them" or "although I am the creator of this system" or "catur-varnyam maya srstam" or "guna-karma-vibhagasah" or "tasya kartaram api mam" or "the four divisions of human society are created by Me" or "viddhy akartaram avyayam" or "you should know that I am yet the nondoer"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: The kṣatriyas, they are royal class, they possessed land, so they had obligation to protect the country. Therefore they were fighting. How nice arrangement. Those who are occupying administration of the country, they should fight. But they are sitting very nicely in their armchair and calling somebody, "Go and fight and be killed." This system is not scientific system. Therefore the caste system is very nice. They have now been condemned... Not condemned, but they want to revise it. But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the

Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: No. You cannot say that. Two plus two equal to four everywhere, East and West. There is no difference, East and West. It is scientific. It is vijñaṇa. So when you call of, talk of science, there is no difference of understanding in the East and West. The same thing is understood.

Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.

Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. (break) So have you seen this little, how we are translating this? You can see little. Original śloka, its transliteration, then its English equivalent, then translation, then purport, each and every verse is being done like that, whole Bhāgavatam Purāṇa.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Because according to old script, the Purāṇas, etc., every member of one of the four classes, these varṇas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...is to be born inside it...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...but not appointed.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Prof. Kotovsky: This is the major...

Prabhupāda: No, no, that... I am sorry...

Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: Your permission, may I ask one question? Do we offer any solution for socio-economic problems that you can...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Provided you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, everything will be solved.

Reporter: Will it come by itself, or will it come through you?

Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Kṛṣṇa has stated, sir, that "I have created these four castes of āśrama..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That I have spoken. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). So this knowledge were being studied by the king, because it is the responsibility of the king to see that the citizens are happy in every all respects.

Dr. Singh: Sretaketu(?) also went to the king to ask him. Your movement has spread with tremendous rapidity.

Prabhupāda: Because it is genuine.

Dr. Singh: And the sheep are very hungry. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: We have to scrutinize everything. Yes. That is brahminical qualification. A brāhmaṇa will not accept anything simply because it is said by some rascal. A śūdra will accept because he has no intelligence. That is the difference between brāhmaṇa and śūdra. It is not a caste system. It is classi..., guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), division of high qualities and actual activities according to that quality. They misinterpreted. Because by the influence of Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra, so he does not know what is the actually brahminical qualification. Therefore there is, I mean to say, competition: "Why this man should be done?(known?) I am as good as he is, and why he should be called brāhmaṇa? He should be given greater facility?" So actually it has happened so. A so-called brāhmaṇa, caste brāhmaṇa, he is working his intelligence like śūdra, and he is claiming, by birthright, brāhmaṇa. There must be protest. This has happened. Otherwise, that division is perfect, guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. Anyone who comes to that quality, he becomes brāhmaṇa. That is the injunction of the śāstra. Kṛṣṇa says guṇa karma vibhāgaśaḥ. You have no qualification, you do not work according to your quality, and why you are claiming a brāhmaṇa? That is self-evident. Guṇa karma vibhāga. He never said by birth, never said. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. "In this age, Kali-yuga, all śūdras." Therefore they accept everything cheaply and at once, the śūdras.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means by quality. He must have the brahminical quality, then he's brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): So under these principles then, there are no brāhmaṇas in India, really, then.

Prabhupāda: Yes. At the... Not only...

Guest (2): Not all the brāhmaṇas who are supposed to be brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We... Our... This philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to the Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata, we don't accept brāhmaṇa by birth. We accept brāhmaṇa by quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Quality and work.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means qualified brāhmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation continues for some sentences.) Who is practicing this? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). He cannot be called a brāhmaṇa unless he acts according to his guṇa. If he's acting in differently, he should be... (break) ...utilized by the liberated person, still we can use it, provided we stop this process of animal killing. Then it will be very easier. This medicine... The doors will be... Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). Therefore whoever comes to us to become our student, our first proposition is that "You should give up these four principles, illicit sex, animal-eating, gambling and intoxication, up to drinking tea, coffee, cigarette." This is our condition. So the more you practice to these four prohibitive regulations, then you realize.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So you are already in some activity. Everyone, they must be engaged in something, doing something. But Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up this. You just surrender unto Me and do what I say. Then it..."

Reporter: But He's saying sarva-dharmān parityajya... (BG 18.66).

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: ...not sarva-karmān parityajya.

Prabhupāda: Dharmān means karmān. Dharma means activity. Just like a brāhmaṇa...

Reporter: But activity...

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)—just a minute—how he can understand the brahma? Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reporter: Yes, yes.

Prabhupāda: So this dharma, brāhmaṇa-dharma, kṣatriya-dharma, they're divided according to karma. You cannot avoid this karma. Dharma means karma, activity. Brāhmaṇa, he's practicing, śamo damas titikṣā ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). These are karmas. Brahma-karma svabhāva-jam. Kṣatriya-karma svabhāva-jam. So dharma means this is sva-dharma. Brāhmaṇa's executing the karma of brāhmaṇa, he's dharma.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: First initiation, experimental...

Professor: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries. Yes.

Professor: Yes. I know. Don't you think it's against the dharma-śāstra?

Prabhupāda: No.

Professor: No. Tell me why?

Prabhupāda: Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There is nothing, such thing as janma.

Professor: Oh. Very nice.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Ambassador: Because there is a... The definition of brāhmaṇa, of course, is made by Buddha's said: (Sanskrit )

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Bhāgavata says,

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

(SB 7.11.35)

These are clear indications that brāhmaṇa is not from particular family.

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Guest (3): Well, you are not conducting any business. You are conducting the business of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in Kṛṣṇa's business, there is no question of renouncement.

Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific thing. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that...

Prabhupāda: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Kṛṣṇa says, if you cannot... Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is by tendency. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). By the tendency. Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction that "This boy is meant for becoming a brāhmaṇa." Everyone has got some tendency. From the tendency it should be designated. Or by work.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Brahmānanda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa means quality, karma means the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality. And at the same time he must work as such. Then he is brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Yes, defense ministry is kṣatriya and that is, that is the sanction of the śāstra.

yasya yal-lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet.

(SB 7.11.35)

This is the statement by Nārada Muni. I shall quote the śāstra.

Guest: Right (?).

Prabhupāda: Just like kṣatriya. Kṣatriya's.... Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa, śauryaṁ tejaḥ, yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. These are the kṣatriya qualities. So śāstra says if these qualities are anyatrāpi dṛśyeta, if these qualities are found somewhere else.... Suppose a śūdra, a caṇḍāla, if these qualities are found there, then he should be designated by that post, not as śūdra.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Guest: Because if a brāhmaṇa goes on drinking and abusing...

Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra, caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a.... But they are claiming brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.

Guest: No, no.

Prabhupāda: It is not allowed.

Guest: It is by our actions and faults(?).

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Never says birth. Guṇa-karma, quality and karma.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that we are much more superior brāhmaṇas than other like Chaudhuris and Sanyals.

Prabhupāda: But where is your superiority?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was explaining like that.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think tradition must be still...

Prabhupāda: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The reference is given to the quality, guṇa, and karma, and action. How you can simply say that because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high-court judge, therefore I am high-court judge. Is that very good logic? How you became superior? You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work. This is very nice.

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: The greatest gift to the humanity is varṇāśrama-dharma by the ancient culture of India.

Prabhupāda: No, it is given by God.

Dr. Patel: Whatever it is... But I mean, that is the greatest gift.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Varṇāśrama-dharma. And I don't know why people don't follow it.

Prabhupāda: But there is no guidance. There is no guidance.

Dr. Patel: Even imperceptibly one āśrama may be following, is followed by western countries. They have got all the (indistinct) though they are not putting on (indistinct) and all. (Hindi) But presently this is, we are living in Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Varṇāśrama-dharma is there, but it is not organized. Varṇa... Because it is made by God, mayā sṛṣṭam, it cannot be violated. So... But it (is) in a perverted way. Therefore we are suffering.

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: I am reading the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therein so many princes turned into brāhmaṇas, and so many brāhmaṇas turned into daityas.

Prabhupāda: But that is...

Dr. Patel: It was by action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Not by birth. Guṇa-karma. Just like you are kṣatriya, but because you have acquired the qualification of medical man and you are working as a medical man, therefore you are medical man. Nobody asked you, "You are a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa." You are a medical man.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: The society becomes perfect when the members of the society can understand that this human body is meant for satisfying Viṣṇu. That is the beginning of organized society. So long they do not know that, that is animal society. Because the animals, they do not know that.

Dr. Patel: Shall we go back?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. (break) They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.

Dr. Patel: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: Guṇa... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. (break)

Girirāja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So if you associate with sattva-guṇa, then you become enlightened. If you associate with rajo-guṇa, then you are, I mean to say, pushed through passion. And if you are in ignorance, then you do not know what is right and wrong. Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa, they are in knowledge.

Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas, and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42).

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: (BG 4.13) "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse.

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: Page?

Nitāi: 235.

Yogeśvara: You have it?

Nitāi: You want to read it?

Yogeśvara:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates)

Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: He says this seems to be somewhat different from the traditional Hindu practice, since in the Manu-saṁhitā, for example, śūdras are not to be instructed.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but we do not keep him śūdra. A devotee is no longer śūdra. We are creating brāhmaṇas. Just like these Europeans and Americans. They, according to Manu-saṁhitā, they are mlecchas, yavanas. But we are not keeping them mlecchas and yavanas. Just like these European and American boys. They are accepting the Vedic regulatives principles: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. So they are no more śūdras or caṇḍālas. They are brāhmaṇas.

Yogeśvara: (translates)

Prabhupāda: So it is said, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), according to quality and work. When one is educated in the quality of brāhmaṇa, Vaiṣṇava, and he works like a brāhmaṇa, he is no longer śūdra or caṇḍāla or yavana. He is brāhmaṇa or Vaiṣṇava.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.

Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13).

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: ...who wrote a book called "Brave New Worlds", and in that book, he predicted something that's coming true now, that there would be a process of biologically screening babies so that men could be breeded like animals, like they breed animals. So they would take one strain of chromosomes and breed a class of men who would make perfect administrators, and then they would breed another class of men that would be perfect śūdras, and they would breed another class of men who would be perfect scientists.

Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad-gītā) "...three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German) (break)

Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem.

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul.

Professor Durckheim: I beg your pardon.

Prabhupāda: You are spirit soul, not this body. That is the beginning of our talk. (German)

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Reverend Powell: Calcutta, ah. I was there many years ago, I knew...

Prabhupāda: You have been in Calcutta?

Reverend Powell: Yes, I have. I crossed from Karachi and Delhi, I went down to Agra, and I gather this...

Prabhupāda: Yes, for people coming from England to Australia, they passed through Calcutta or Bombay, like that.

Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We came by air. Was there some reference?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

"Translation: According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Read the purport.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa. So the Indians, in India, they're very conservative, perverted. So they accuse that "Swami Mahārāja is spoiling the Hindu system of religion, because he's accepting brāhmaṇa from outside." So actually they're also not aware... Creation of God... Here God says that "I have created." So God's creation is not limited. Suppose the sun is creation of God. It is not for India or for Australia. It is for everyone. So whatever created by God, that is not monopoly of a certain class of men.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Hṛdayānanda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of.

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the social dimension is described, cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse. You read.

Hṛdayānanda:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

(Spanish)

Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain.

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

Prabhupāda: There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: Do I understand that the children in your school in Texas, that they're brought up in what you consider spiritual consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42).

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,

bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra

janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra

(CC Adi 9.41)

This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.

Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone has got his particular qualities. So we have to utilize—what quality does he belong? But at the present moment the difficulty is that they do not care that in the society there must be a class of brain, brāhmaṇa. That they do not know. They want everyone should become a śūdra, the Communists life, worker, "Work." And therefore they have not been successful. The whole nation is worker, and who will give the brain?

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Yes, Communist country, they want simply worker. But still, they have to create manager. Why manager created? Let everyone become worker. Now, Communist country also, although they say worker, but why they are creating manager?

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins. (break)

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Governor: The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a brāhmaṇa. (indistinct)... Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people.

Prabhupāda: All people.

Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."

Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it?

Amogha: That must be true.

Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: (BG 4.13) "By Me, the four divisions of human society are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Everything is good; everything is bad—materially. The real good for him, that he has forgotten his spiritual identification; revive him to that consciousness. That is real good. Somebody brings just now bucketfuls of water, and if he proposes "I shall drench you," "No, no, no, don't you drench me." But you will find—we are going—the ducks, as soon as they..., immediately jump on the water. So whether water is good or bad? It is all relative. So don't bother about this good and bad. It is simply mental concoction. (pause) You can bring me breakfast at eight.

Devotee (1): Eight o'clock. All right.

Prabhupāda: Not so early.

Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast.

Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: The Guru Nanak says Kṛṣṇa is God.

Yogi Bhajan: That's very true. Kṛṣṇa is God.

Prabhupāda: Then why don't you follow Kṛṣṇa's instruction?

Yogi Bhajan: We are not disobeying any instruction towards God.

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's... What Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Train first-class men. He must be truthful. He must be self-controlled, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. He must have full knowledge of the whole world, jñānaṁ vijñānam, practical application.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Dharmādhyakṣa: In the study of theology, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. (break)

Bahulāśva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...

Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Jayatīrtha: Samaḥ means equally disposed; sarveṣu means all; bhūteṣu means living entity. "He is equally disposed to every living entity."

Prabhupāda: So we can see on equal level when (sic:) you become a brāhmaṇa. Brahma-bhūtaḥ, not in the United Nation, passing resolution and fight is going on outside, because they have no vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Jayatīrtha: 4.13.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental.

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vṛndāvana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society?

Prabhupāda: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.

Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?

Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.

Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?

Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma...

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?

Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...

Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.

Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there. Bhagavad-gītā says how they should be classified, that "He belongs to this class, he belongs to that class." That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā, not that by birth, hereditarily, one becomes a caste. You don't try to misunderstand.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: So there are different varieties of men, so divide them according to the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole human society will be... There are four division of your body—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, the leg division. If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal.

Nityānanda: Women's liberation.

Prabhupāda: Yes, but how the nature's law is strong. Woman has to become pregnant, not the man. Why equal right? Let the man become pregnant once. Woman became pregnant once. The right. Where is that law? So why equal right? Brahmānanda was saying one day they'll not mix with man.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Satsvarūpa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as kṣatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others...

Prabhupāda: No... Kṣatriyas, I have already explained who is brāhmaṇa and kṣatriya according to guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brāhmaṇa, become brāhmaṇa. If you are fit to become kṣatriya, become kṣatriya. If you are fit to become śūdra, do it. Three... Then... And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is śūdra. That's all. "Help. Help the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and take your food and little pocket expense. That's all." Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don't require, but even if it is required we can give.

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Devotee (6): They all think we are propagating Hindusim because we're wearing dhotī...

Prabhupāda: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated.

Cyavana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Kṛṣṇa said that there should be four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Kṛṣṇa does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity."

Prabhupāda: Yes. You can become a brāhmaṇa. Equal oppor... We are giving. Any man, he may be caṇḍāla but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brāhmaṇa." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a caṇḍāla family. You cannot become brāhmaṇa." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. (break) ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has been misrepresented.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brāhmaṇa can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this māyā, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13)—brāhmaṇa can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brāhmaṇa can be prepared..., brāhmaṇa is manufactured in India and the son of a brāhmaṇa is a brāhmaṇa.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: Busy fool, what is the value? He is fool, and he is busy. So nowadays the education is to make busy fool. That's all.

Indian man (1): About the busy intelligent?

Prabhupāda: The second class.

Indian man (1): How does he behave?

Prabhupāda: Busy intelligent means at least whatever he is doing, there is some meaning, busy intelligent. And lazy intelligent means he is doing higher things. Lazy intelligent means brāhmaṇa, and busy intelligent means kṣatriya. So the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). The society should be divided into four classes. The śūdras, they are busy fools. Therefore they are to be guided. They are to be guided. If there are, hundred workers are there, then one leader must be there to give the direction: "Why you are doing this? Why you don't do this?" Otherwise he'll create havoc. Busy fool. So the whole world is full of busy fools. That's all.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems?

Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.

Morning Walk -- November 13, 1975, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Where everything is myth, then why you are truth? You are also myth. Everything is myth, so you are also myth. What is the use of talking nonsense?

Yaśomatīnandana: They believe in whatever is existing now. Whatever is existing now, or whatever they...

Prabhupāda: And what is not existing which is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Still people say, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." It is existing.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: But for the saṁsārīs, sir...

Prabhupāda: Saṁsārīs, (indistinct) for the saṁsārīs. When Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), this is for saṁsārīs. Saintly person doesn't require anna. It is meant for the saṁsārī. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Catur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: (BG 4.13) This division of society is meant for the saṁsārī, to control division of labor. Everything is for the saṁsārī. It is not meant for the paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa-saṁhitā is Bhāgavata. This is ABC. These people, they do not understand even the ABC. This is the difficulty. They cannot learn even the ABCD of spiritual knowledge.

1976 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 12, 1976, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (break) ...tato bhāvaḥ sādhakānām ayam premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ. (break) Vaiṣṇava doesn't make any discrimination that "He is Hindu," "He is Muslim," "He is this and that." He takes everyone as servant of Kṛṣṇa. (break) In India the caste brāhmaṇas criticize me that "Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin." Yes.

Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gītā never.... I think cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth vibhāgaśaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Never.

Dr. Patel: It is by guṇa and karma.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth.

Prabhupāda: No, it is clearly explained by Nārada Muni, that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification.... Yady anyatrāpi diśetaḥ. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like.... doctor's.... (Hindi) (break) ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste?

Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What was the conclusion last night with Caitya-guru and Mr. Motilal. I couldn't follow in...

Prabhupāda: (break) Then you come to Gītā's instruction, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Nārada Muni also says that one must be qualified, not the birth. Just like this Mullik, and we had the same gotra, but the marriage cannot take place within the same family.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Within the gotra. In the same gotra.

Prabhupāda: The same title, De, and same gotra; therefore it is the same family. That is the proof. So in the same family there cannot be any marriage. Sa-gotra. Sa-gotra-vivāha-niṣedha.

Morning Walk -- February 12, 1976, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: ...I am your friend, I am God, so you sleep, I shall do everything. In Russia like that. When Arjuna refused to fight He chastised him like anything. What is the anārya-juṣṭam? He's just like non-Aryans, talking foolish. People should clearly understand that we don't encourage laziness. We never encourage. According to your capacity, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), you must work. Śarīra yātrāpi te na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ, Kṛṣṇa says, "By not working, even if you cannot put on your body and soul together." Kṛṣṇa says like that.

Morning Walk -- April 9, 1976, Vrndavana:

Devotee (2): Which way is India headed towards? The capitalists or the Communists?

Prabhupāda: India has no, had no such ideas. They are borrowing ideas. India's idea is self-realization. Live very simple life—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. The brāhmaṇas, they are living simple life, becoming very learned scholar, pure character, advanced in spiritual life—one class, ideal. And kṣatriyas, they are supposed to be the king. They distribute the land on nominal taxation, and the vaiśyas utilize the land for cultivation and cow-keeping, and the śūdras, they are engaged as weaver, blacksmith, goldsmith, mean other necessities of life. In this way the whole society is simplified, and the central point is how to become advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness by cooperation. This is India's civilization. There is no question of industry. Ugra-karma. It has been condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā as ugra-karma, laboring very hard for livelihood. This industry means engage the poor worker class to work very hard, and there is huge profit, and some directors of the capitalists, they take it. And they have one dozen motorcars, palatial building, no work, simply wine and woman, that's all. This is going on. And the others, they are seeing: "There is no classification, neither real brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya. So he is enjoying like that. He has got so many cars. He has got such a nice apartment. Why not me?" There is struggle. This is actual picture. Our Vedic advice is that make life very simple. You must have some means of livelihood. Keep your body and soul together. So according to quality, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), there must be division and then simple life. The real aim is tam abhyarcya, how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1976, Toronto:

Indian man (3): My position you mean in relation to Kṛṣṇa or in relation to the world?

Prabhupāda: No, in relation to the world. In relationship with the world, therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). What is your quality? Then you are classified as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra. Then your duty. First of all you must know what you are, what is your position. Then there is duty.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Especially he is trying to inquire that it appears that India, for example, today...

Prabhupāda: But India, they have given up the real religious system, sanātana-dharma, or varṇāśrama-dharma. Fictitiously, they have accepted a hodgepodge thing which is called Hinduism. Therefore there is trouble. Everywhere, but India especially, they are... Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varṇāśrama-dharma. That is... Kṛṣṇa says, God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy. You cannot become outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished. So God says mayā sṛṣṭam. "It is given by Me." So how we can deny it? And that is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Dharmam means the order given by the God. The God says that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "For the proper management of the human society, there should be these four divisions, social divisions." So you have to take it.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Question number four. Even a well read, widely traveled, and enlightened editor like the late Śrī Frank Moraes... I think that's how you... M-o-r-a-e-s. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: Who is he?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I don't know. He's late though.

Dhṛṣṭadyumna: He has died, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's dead. He was enlightened. "...equated Hindu ethos with castism." He equated that Hindu culture, or Hindu ethos, and castism is one and the same. "Will the fundamental values of Hinduism be in any way affected by the eradication of castism, towards which a concerted effort is now being made at all levels?"

Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified.

Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."

Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32).

Room Conversation -- July 7, 1976, Baltimore:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in this journal we can publish from different disciplines of knowledge from any branch of knowledge and principle.

Devotee: Science, philosophy, economics, sociology. For the scholarly, academic community.

Prabhupāda: Yes, socially you can teach how this cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), how it is scientific. In the society, if there is... Actually we have. Just like why these, maybe so-called scientists, but why the scientists are given so much importance? Because there is a brain. So if you make everyone equal, all śūdras, then who will be the brain? The brain is required. That is brāhmaṇa. So this, not this brain, this brain is śūdra brain for everyone.

Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.

Prabhupāda: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are śūdras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as kṣatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not kṣatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma, by quality.

Evening Darsana -- July 11, 1976, New York:

Indian man (6): Another question comes. Why, how the caste system has crippled our society so much, was accepted by...

Prabhupāda: Wrongly, wrongly. Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So according to quality and work... That is fact. If you have got engineering qualification and if you can work as engineer, people will call you engineer-sāheb. Is it not? So there may be a class of engineer, but that depends on quality and work. But if you have no quality, no work, how you become engineer? If you have no qualification of becoming an engineer, and you do not work, you work as a clerk, and if somebody addresses you "Engineer-sāheb," he is a fool, you are a fool. (laughter) So if he's not a brāhmaṇa, if you call him a brāhmaṇa, then you are fool and he is also fool. So that is going on, fools' paradise. A rascal who is not in qualification a brāhmaṇa, if he's addressed and given honor of a brāhmaṇa, he's sees, "Oh, for nothing I am getting this honor, that's right, very nice." And who is giving him honor as brāhmaṇa, he's also rascal. But it is not that. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. One must acquire the quality of a brāhmaṇa.

Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) We allowed everyone to be here unawares. If public corporation, trading company, becomes the ruler of this country, I don't understand how it could be.

Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya.

Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra Pradesh -- August 22, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.

Press Interview -- October 16, 1976, Chandigarh:

Prabhupāda: There must be brāhmaṇa, there must be śūdra, there must be.... Then the social arrangement is perfect.

Interviewer: Would that mean that you support the ancient caste system?

Prabhupāda: Huh? It is not caste system. It is division of labor. It is not caste system. A class of men must be intelligent, a class of men must be strong to give protection. And a class of men must be to produce food, and a class of men, general worker. It is not caste system. Bhagavad-gītā never says caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work. You have made it caste system. You have no qualification of a brāhmaṇa, you are calling, "I am brāhmaṇa." That is caste system. But if you have got the quality of a brāhmaṇa and you work as a brāhmaṇa, that is necessary. That is necessary. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Room Conversation About Gurukula -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: If the father takes care, that's all right. Otherwise he can go to Hyderabad. Hyderabad should be for gṛhasthas, for plowing, for growing, and flowers, like that. No education required.

Bhagatji: He is not interested in education, not at all.

Prabhupāda: No, no education... That is waste of... For such boys who are not interested, why they should be enforced, education? They are not meant for that. Education is for higher brain, sober brain. And not that everyone has to become literate. It is not required. He can do other work. Yes.

Bhagatji: Prabhupāda means that according to the nature, you engage them.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. "You can do this? All right, do it. Why you should be forced to learn Sanskrit? Not necessary. Not necessary."

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the chanting nicely and the kīrtana nicely but doesn't do the school work nicely?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Dhanurdhara: What of a boy who does the japa very nicely and...

Prabhupāda: Well, japa... Whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful. What to speak of children? Japa, children cannot... That should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should... But not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No.

Jagadīśa: You've often said the first-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas, second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas...

Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things.

Room Conversation About Gurukula -- November 5, 1976, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable. You should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: First of all try to understand. It is... The free will is there. If you don't surrender, then, Kṛṣṇa says, niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ: "Instead of sitting idly, better you do your prescribed duty." So the prescribed duty is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to guṇa and karma, there are four divisions. So if you are in the first-class division as brāhmaṇa, you do the brāhmaṇa's work. If you are a kṣatriya, you do the kṣatriya's... Niyataṁ kuru karma. What is you are destined, you do that nicely. Don't be idle. That is Kṛṣṇa's in... But if you are intelligent, then Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). But you are foolish; then you be engaged in your prescribed duty. And if you are intelligent, then "You give up everything; simply surrender to Me." That depends on you. If you are intelligent, you'll surrender; if you are not intelligent, be engaged in your karma. Kṛṣṇa is giving all facilities. Now it is up to you to make your selection.

Morning Walk -- December 5, 1976, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: We do not know the value of life, how nature is working, how we are changing our body. No education all over the world. Simply making plans how to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy senses, how to defend, that's all. This is animal life. This is not prescribed duty. Prescribed duty is above this. From animal, one has to become brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, utmost, śūdra, like that. That is prescribed duty. And simply whole day working for eating, sleeping, mating, that is the business of the hog. Hog is also whole day working for eating, sleeping, and sex, and defense. Therefore śāstra says, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). You should not live the life of a hog, viḍ-bhujām. Viḍ-bhujām means the stool eater. He is also working day and night. What is the business? "Where is stool?" That's all. And as soon as he's strong then, "Where is sex," without any discrimination. That is hog's life. So human life is not meant for spoiling like hog's life. Therefore niyataṁ kuru karma tvam. You should classify yourself amongst the four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13), and then your prescribed duties are there. If you want to become a brāhmaṇa, then śamo damas titikṣā ārjavam, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). If you want to be kṣatriya, tejaḥ... What is that? Tejaḥ śauryaṁ yujyaṁ yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam īśvara-bhāvaś ca kṣātraṁ karma svabhāva-jam. If you want to be a vaiśya, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). And if you want to remain a śūdra, paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam. And that is prescribed duty. You classify yourself, either as a brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or a vaiśya, by quality, not by caste or by whims, no. Actually by qualification. Then you engage yourself in that duty.

1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Evening Darsana -- January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Guest (2): During the present day, sir, to whom we will treat as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya and śūdra?

Prabhupāda: That I was explaining. According to the symptom.

Guest (1): Cātur-varnyam mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: So actual...

Mr. Pandiya: Bratim(?) eva tu kāraṇam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Unfortunately, at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇas. Kalau śūdra-sambhavāḥ.

Room Conversation Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced -- February 14, 1977, Mayapura:

Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.

Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who'll chant?

Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.

Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda...

Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Bali-mardana: Everything provided. Wherever we open these farming communities, people then they respect us.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bali-mardana: Say, "Oh, you are doing something."

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's order, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). (break) ...is important, not that the learned brāhmaṇa class is important and śūdra, he is not im... He is also important. He is giving you service according to his quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). And center is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation -- March 22, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Why India's such big culture should be lost for the matter of these rascal leaders? This should be stopped. As Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma (BG 4.13). There must be ideal brāhmaṇa, ideal kṣatriya, ideal vaiśya, as Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is all-inclusive. Economic question? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Grow food. Practical. Just like when I was going to the pandals, millions of clerks were coming—"Education. Educated." And who is growing food? And they have to be provided in these pigeon holes and depend on ration. Is that civilization?

Room Conversation with Scientists, Svarupa Damodara, and Dr. Sharma -- March 31, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders. (Hindi)

Interview with Mr. Koshi (Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly) -- April 5, 1977, Bombay:

Mr. Koshi: I mean to something different, about the... You all have list, some conditions in this...

Prabhupāda: No condition. Study Bhagavad-gītā. Make your life...

Mr. Koshi: No, for example, the saffron robe, the beads...

Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Mr. Koshi: And the shaving of the head with the little...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama. This is āśrama. He is sannyāsī, he must take to it.

Mr. Koshi: And the avoidance of...

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So just like if you take, become a police officer, you must take the dress.

Mr. Koshi: Uniform. No, but say the avoidance of tea and coffee and all that.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Mr. Koshi: Is something wrong with tea?

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is sinful, pāna.

Mr. Koshi: By itself it is not bad.

Prabhupāda: Itself is bad, sinful.

Mr. Koshi: It's a neutral thing.

Prabhupāda: You say, but śāstra says striya, sūnā, pāna, dyūta (SB 1.17.38), four kinds of sinful activities. Illicit sex; pāna, intoxication. Pāna, pāna, so it is intoxication. Therefore it is sinful.

Conversation with disciples of Chinmayananda and Shivananda Ashram -- April 22, 1977, Bombay:

Indian man (3): Swamiji, excuse me. I don't see any difference between the person to person.

Prabhupāda: There is difference. Cat and dog, there is difference. An intelligent man and a rascal is difference. There must be difference. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How you say there is no difference? A brāhmaṇa is brāhmaṇa. A kṣatriya is kṣatriya. Vaiśya is vaiśya. That is real understanding. If you say, "Everyone is brāhmaṇa," that's not good.

Indian man (3): But we have been told to see only one consciousness, one life, between indi...

Prabhupāda: That oneness is on the spiritual platform. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu (BG 18.54). That is another thing. But so long you have got a bodily concept of life, you must divide: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That is wanted. Just like in my body there is division. There is head. There is hand. There is leg. There is belly. So they have got different activities. The head is important. If you cut the head, then whole thing is finished.

Second Meeting with Mr. Dwivedi -- April 24, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Where is nonviolence in Bhagavad-gītā, in politics?

Kārttikeya: Nowhere.

Prabhupāda: No. Even that incidence I told you, the, Duryodhana said, "You have come to, for kingdom? Yes, you can take." So he said, "No, no, no. That we shall decide in the battlefield." This is kṣatriya. "Oh, Duryodhana, you are so gentleman. Let us settle up. No, no, no." "No! That will be settled in the battlefield." This is Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) "No, we have come to the battlefield. We must decide by fighting." This is kṣatriya. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. (Hindi) This is teaching of Bhagavad-gītā. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. Then where this is nonviolence come in the Bhagavad-gītā? Apalāyanam. (Hindi) "Come on. Fight. You have no weapon? Take from me." This is kṣatriya.

Evening Darsana -- May 13, 1977, Hrishikesh:

Prabhupāda: So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varṇāśrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, cātur-varṇyam, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Sannyāsa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyāsa. After fiftieth year one must take to vānaprastha, vanaṁ vrajet. This is system. So... System of purification, how to become designationless.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Tvaṁ hi (sic:) brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda Mahārāja. Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ, bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa. Seven.... Eighth Chapter. There is mark. Read there. Just let...

Pradyumna:

tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ

saṁskārān kartum arhasi

bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ

janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ

Prabhupāda: Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. As soon as you take birth, brāhmaṇa is your guru. So where is brāhmaṇa? Tad-vijñānarthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Where is that guru? Therefore the society, chaotic condition.... As soon as you take birth, you have to accept brāhmaṇa guru. So there must be brāhmaṇas. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be brāhmaṇas. Otherwise where is human society? It is animal society. In the animal society they are clever, enjoy. "How! How! How! How!" Jackals and tigers and big, this animal, that animal, they are everything. Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is the first time attempt is being made—"There must be brāhmaṇas"—this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. They do not know the aim of life, how it should be organized, what kind of members there should be. No knowledge. Therefore I have challenged that "Your brain is filled up with stool. You do not know how human society is happy." Here is janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ. So where is brāhmaṇa? Janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ.

Bhakti-cāru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a process of making this animal society into human civilization. At the present moment especially, all animals. I take them as animals. Therefore I say so boldly. I care for them. They are animals. That's all. Maybe very well do. I have not said. Bhāgavata says. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).

Room Conversation with Mr. Myer -- July 2, 1977, Vrndavana:

Mr. Myer: Now is a very good time for ISKCON because this new government, all their policies is what ISKCON is already doing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Let us see actually if it is good.

Prabhupāda: No, it can be successful, provided they do it nicely. It can be successful very easily, especially in India. That one line of Bhagavad-gītā, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). We have to take this. Satyaṁ śamo damas... There is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma... (BG 4.13). If they follow this program, everything will be... The face of the world will... Everything. Annād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. Eh? Annād bhavanti bhūtāni parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Eh? Parjanyād...

Akṣayānanda: Yajñād bhavati sam...

Prabhupāda: Ah, yajñād bhavati parjanyo yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). All prescription of material life, spiritual life, social life, political life, religious life, artistic life—Bhagavad-gītā is full of knowledge. At least in India there must be an institution that is strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. This is my institution.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regarding that land, if they want to give it, they'll give it. It's not that somebody's going to come, like Mr. Arora, and by his coming suddenly they're going to give us the land. It's a big political matter. It's not friendship. We just have to become very much prepared now for such occurrences. Those gurukula boys, as they grow up, they should be trained to protect Māyāpur.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say kṣatriya. Some of our men should be trained as kṣatriya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is required.

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not that all one class. That is all wrong.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people are inclined in that way. Guṇa-karma.

Prabhupāda: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly. Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.

Meeting With Governor of Tamil Nadu -- July 31, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So the human endeavor should be diverted how to stop this repetition of birth and death. That is the prime instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says that,

janma karma ca me divyaṁ

yo jānāti tattvataḥ

tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma

naiti mām eti...

(BG 4.9)

So our movement is on that platform, how to stop. Our whole Vedic culture is based on that process. When Viśvāmitra Mahārāja went to see Daśaratha about..., Daśaratha Mahārāja inquired from Viśvāmitra, aihistaṁ(?) yat punar-janma-jayāya: "You are great saintly person. You are trying to conquer over birth and death. Is your process going on nicely?" Viśvāmitra inquired Daśaratha Mahārāja about royal activities, government, prosperity, because he was kṣatriya and he was brāhmaṇa. So my request... This, our Gītā philosophy, that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13). There must be a class of men, ideal brāhmaṇas; a class of men, ideal kṣatriyas; class of men, ideal vaiśyas; and balance, śūdras, to help. That will make the human society happy. Cooperate.

Room Conversation -- October 18, 1977, Vrndavana:

Girirāja: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he'll be satisfied with this arrangement.

Prabhupāda: And Dr. Ghosh has his scheme, but actually the scheme is there in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. We want to introduce that scheme to our Gurukula. We haven't got to manufacture scheme. Is that correct?

Girirāja: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Let them learn to rise early in the morning and cleanse. This is the first scheme. This will keep their health nice. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Unless in the human society the varṇāśrama system is introduced, no scheme or social order, health order or any order, political order, will be successful.