Prabhupāda: They can manufacture nice medicine to counteract disease, but they cannot manufacture anything which will stop disease. You can fight against death very nicely, but you cannot stop death. These are the problems. But there is no education in the modern civilization how to stop death, how to stop disease, how to stop old age, how to stop birth, how to attain eternal life, how to attain blissful life. They have no education. But this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, although it appears a new movement in your country, but it is known to the world. But nobody had previously attempted to put these ideas and movement in practical shape. So that I am doing. That I am attempting. And with this mission, I have come to your country with the hope that if the American people take it very seriously, then it will be the greatest contribution to the world. So I have already published this, my magazines and my books, in this connection. So if people take advantage of this movement, try to understand these books, they will be benefited greatly. So that is the basic principle of my teaching. It is the most perfect humanitarian work. Try to understand. We invite anyone. And take it diligently, put your arguments, logic, understanding, and you will find it is sublime. That is the basic principle of my movement.
Attempt (Conversations 1968 - 1975)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Expert means whatever he is doing, he must do it very nicely That's all. Suppose you are sweeping this room. You can do it very nicely, to your best knowledge. That is expert. The people will say, "Oh, you have very nicely done." Any work you do, do it very nicely. That is expert. Don't do it haphazardly. To your best talent, to your best capacity, try to finish it very nicely, whatever it may be. You are entrusted with some work. Do it nicely. That is expert. If you think that you are unable to do that work, then whatever work you can do, you take. But do it nicely. That is expert. Don't imitate. "Oh, I have no capacity to work in that way, but I want to imitate. Oh, he is doing that. I shall do that." Don't do that. That is not expert. You take up what you can do very nicely and do it nicely. We have so many works. Kṛṣṇa is not that He is static. He is dynamic force. Just like Arjuna, he was not a Vedantist, he was not a brāhmaṇa, he was not a sannyāsī. He was householder. He was military man. But he knew his business, how to do it nicely. So you do your business nicely. That is expert. And when it is dovetailed in Kṛṣṇa, there is no gradation that this business is better and that business is lower because everything is for Kṛṣṇa. So that business becomes Kṛṣṇa. Do it nicely and Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. And that is your success. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate 'khila pārthiva vānaraḥ.(?) Expert. There is a very nice story in Sanskrit. A monkey. A monkey... You might have some experience, that sawmen, who cut wood? Sawmen. So a sawman was cutting wood by the saw. So at the end of business it was half cut so he pulled down a, I mean to say, a plug so that next day he will come and he'll again begin sawing. So went away. So one monkey came. So monkey sat down there and began to pull on the plug because monkey's business is simply mischievous. So he did not know that his plough (?) and some portion of his thigh was within the hole and when he took out this plug it was, (claps) I mean to say, clipped, and he could not get out and died. So the instruction is that... 'Khila pārthiva vānaraḥ, vyāpare suvyaparam. Avyāpara means a occupation, an occupation which is not fit for you. That is avyāpara. Avyāpara-suvyaparam. And one occupation which is not exactly fitting you, you do not know how to do it, so avyāpare suvyaparam yo kartu... If one wants to act in a business in which he is unable to do, then he is killed just like this fool monkey. Avyāpare suvyaparam yo naraḥ kartum icchati, sa-mulo hanyate. That foolish person is killed just like this monkey. The monkey's business was not to imitate the sawman, but he wanted to imitate. The result was that he was killed. So that is not expertness. Expertness is you just try to do which is easily performed by you. You don't accept anything heavy task because Kṛṣṇa does not want that you have to do this heavy task. Whatever you know, you just apply it. You dovetail it in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa does not say that you have to become like this, like that, like that, then you can serve Him. Does not say. Just like this cow. Just see. What does it know? He's an animal. You see? But the calf knows to brush his head and tongue like this, in love. It is doing and Kṛṣṇa accepting, "Yes." That is expert. First of all find out what is easily done by you. Don't take anything which is not easily done by you. You find out what is your occupation, what you can very nicely and easily perform, and do it for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that clear? Expert? This is expert. Expert does not mean that I do not know how to drive motor car, and I will have to imitate somebody, "Oh, I shall become driver." Why? If you do not know driving, why should you attempt driving? Whatever you know, you just try it, that business, and try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. If you know driving, that's all right.
Devotee: Well, how many do we need? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You know, there is, there were eighteen akṣauhiṇī senā, eighteen groups of akṣauhiṇī. One akṣauhiṇī, so many hundred thousands of soldiers, so many hundred thousands of chariots, so many hundred thousands of elephants, horses. That is one group. Such eighteen groups were present there. At least, to make a successful scene we require at least fifty elephants to make a show. And chariots. Then it will be something scenic. Bhagavad-gītā, I think, has not been attempted by any cinema company for this reason. It is very difficult to make arrangement for the war scene. This is not modern war. There are many modern war films. You can present that. But it is different kind of war. So if you want to present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then these things will be required.
Devotee: Are there elephants available in India, Swamiji?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Elephants, there are many in India. Elephants, camels, horses also. Still there are many.
Devotee: Could we film on location, on the battlefield?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. The battlefield is still existing, Kurukṣetra. Yes. It is about hundred..., about within two hundred miles from Delhi. It is not far off. That, my red tape recorder is not replaced. Is it very costly now?
Devotee: I think so. Yeah. About five hundred dollars.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very common sense. Suppose if somebody wants to land on your country, America. You do not allow. There are so many restrictions, visas, passport, and immigration. And how do you expect to land there, all of a sudden there? They are so intelligent and their duration of life so long. They are far advanced in knowledge. Everything they're advanced. So you cannot expect in that way to land there. This is common sense affair. Besides that, the scientists also agree that the temperature there is two hundred degrees below zero, so how you can expect to land there and live there?
Reporter: In other words, you don't... How do you yourself feel? Do you feel that if the United States or the Soviet Union were to attempt a landing and their spacecraft went down, what do you yourself expect...
Prabhupāda: No, so far our calculation goes, from the books, nobody can do so. That is impossible.
Reporter: Well, does the book say that it would be impossible for anyone to even approach it? At what point would it be impossible...
Prabhupāda: Impossible means the process by which you are trying to reach there.
Reporter: To live there.
Prabhupāda: No, to reach there.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: All spirit. All the sky. Everywhere is sky, but when it's covered it is called cloud. Similarly when God is covered by some nonsense ideas, then it is material. Otherwise, there is no material. Therefore those who are too much absorbed in materialistic way, there is a restriction but don't attempt. Because he will be to think that God's name is just like my son's name my daughter's name. Therefore that restriction.
Ranadhir: I think when they worship, they're allowed to say God's name, it's just when they're not, when they're talking about Him outside the temple that they have to use different name.
Hayagrīva: We've got to tune some harmoniums.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes, we have to work on the music boxes. We have to start material preparations for the evening.
Prabhupāda: That is not material. (laughter) We have no,...
Allen Ginsberg: A śabda preparation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, śabda is originally spi..., śabda-brahman.
Allen Ginsberg: So that's a mantra for students, for Sarasvatī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vidya, the goddess of learning, Sarasvatī. In our childhood we used to worship Sarasvatī: "Please, mother, give me pass this examination." That was our prayer. So other students, they laughed very loudly. They thought that "Caitanya has come out very victorious within a second." He said, "No. Stop." Then He stopped all these talkings, and... "So you are so... I have to talk with you. You are very learned." Ordinary formalities. Then he went away. And he was also great worshiper of mother Sarasvatī. Then he began to pray to Sarasvatī, "Mother Sarasvatī, by your grace I have become victorious in so many places. And what is this, that I am defeated by a boy who is a grammar student?" So he began to pray, and mother Sarasvatī informed her (him) that "He is God, my husband. So you speak means I speak. So how can I defeat my husband? That is not..." (knock at door) Come on. Come on. (someone enters) Yes, come. Yes. You can put there. (someone offers obeisances) Put there. All right. Put there. That's all. Very good. So then he further did not attempt to talk with Him. He went away, and the mother Sarasvatī advised him that "You surrender unto Him. That will be your nice role. Yes." So later on, he became a great devotee of Lord Caitanya, Keśava Kāśmīrī.
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṛn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtejyā yānti bhūtāni
- mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām
- (BG 9.25)
(chuckling) Mad-yājino: "Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll come to Me." And what is the benefit of going to Kṛṣṇa? He says, mām upetya: "If anyone comes to Me," mam upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), "he does not come back again to this miserable condition." And aśāśvatam, temporary. Why? Samsiddhim paramam gataḥ. Oh, he has attained the highest perfection, to go back to Kṛṣṇa, mad-yājino 'pi mām, "one who comes to Me." So this is the greatest benediction to the human society, to train them to go back to Kṛṣṇa and dance there with Kṛṣṇa in rasa-līlā. You have seen Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā dancing? You have not seen?
Yoko Ono: No, but you see, you...
Prabhupāda: He said, brahma-sūtra-padaiś caiva hetumadbhir viniścitaiḥ (BG 13.5). He refers that "This scientific knowledge, the Absolute Truth, is explained very nicely in Brahma-sūtra, Vedānta-sūtra." He refers to the book. Another place Kṛṣṇa says,
- yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya
- vartate kāma-kārataḥ
- na sa siddhim avāpnoti
- na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim
- (BG 16.23)
"Anyone who does not follow the scriptural injunction, his attempt will be failure. He'll never be happy. And what to speak of being promoted to the spiritual world.?" These things are there. How you can say Kṛṣṇa has not recommended to read books?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How? How it was? No, you do not know. He was proposing that "I know how to cure disease by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." So he wanted to go to foreign countries to take this profession. That means an attempt to kill our movement in purity. Of course, nobody can kill our movement, but this sort of thinking is just against the purity of our movement: utilize Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra for curing disease. Oh, it will not stay.
Haṁsadūta: No. If we put it on the window it will stay. It won't stay on the wall.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: If he puts it on the window it will stay.
Prabhupāda: Window means it will be dark.
Haṁsadūta: Yes. I think that (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. It has to be done. Not only idea, it has to be done in practical sense. Now who will take charge of this task? That is to be found out. You write to the...
Haṁsadūta: GBC?
Prabhupāda: GBC.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Very big temple?
Haṁsadūta: It's one big temple with different rooms. Very large, very nice.
Prabhupāda: Better than this Gītā Bhavan?
Haṁsadūta: No, I don't think it's better than Gītā Bhavan.
Prabhupāda: It was simply attempted, not finished.
Haṁsadūta: Not finished.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... Oh, thank you. Why not spread those blankets? Then you can... They are being used?
Haṁsadūta: There is a blanket in your room.
Prabhupāda: Blanket or mattress.
Haṁsadūta: They have blankets in their rooms. They left them in their rooms.
Prabhupāda: Bring mattress and spread. (Hindi) Sit down. This is comfortable.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā (SB 5.18.12). If one is Godless, he cannot have any good qualities.
Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. So one doctor who's less intelligent says, "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. Sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says, "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all... There are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is Godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they... With one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail.
Guest (2): But you will not comment on the details themselves.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work.
Sister Mary: Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment. To say that the whole of mankind is one and we're treating the disease in the human heart (indistinct) You can't do it by an overall (indistinct)
Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. (indistinct)
Sister Mary: We condemn wars but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say, "God, stop this war."
Revatīnandana: There's a saying, "charity begins at home." (end)
Prabhupāda: Mind is instrument. The mind's position is accepting and rejecting. Intellect helps the mind what to reject and what to accept. And that intelligence is of the soul. That ground of intelligence is the soul. First of all bodily concept is gross life, ordinary, like animals, they do not know except the body. Higher than bodily concept of life, the exercise of the mind, mental speculation. That mental speculation is adjusted by intelligence and that intelligence belongs to the soul. Therefore soul is the ultimate and soul is the part and parcel of God. Therefore God is the supreme. So the mental speculation or the evolution of mental exercise when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti, sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). When one realizes "God is everything," that mahātmā, that great soul is very rare. That is the statement in Bhagavad-gītā. Mahātmā means whose mind is great. The mind is great. He's not thinking ordinary things. He's thinking of greater subject matter. They are called mahātmā, broader minded, broad-minded.
Dr. Weir: Do you differentiate, as you would do, it's only a matter of attempting to comprehend the differences (indistinct) of things, the difference between thinking and feeling as rational functions?
Prabhupāda: That is the function of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing. Psychological activity.
Dr. Weir: Do you differentiate them separately?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, simply for decoration of the body, that is not human civilization. (indistinct) civilized activity is going on on the basis of keeping this body in comfort. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13). (indistinct) everywhere attempt is being made how to keep this body comfortable. The karmīs, they are trying to elevate themselves to the heavenly planet. Enjoying here nicely, but they are performing great sacrifices, ritualistic ceremonies, and pious activities to elevate themselves to higher planetary system according to Vedas. Everywhere we go, material... These people are trying to go to the moon planet. But wherever you go, you cannot be any way comfortable. Therefore, Bhagavad-gītā says that janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Intelligent person will see that "However comfortable I may be, I have to meet death." And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34), "I am death." Death means to take away. Whatever you create, it will be taken away.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (5): The spiritual master, his duty is to take all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, and I've heard it said that he doesn't leave until he has taken all his disciples back. What is the position of Lord Jesus when so many people are following but not doing, not in a position to go back to home, back to Godhead? Is he responsible for all of these people, who are attempting to serve him?
Prabhupāda: That is nice question. What is that? Repeat it again.
Devotee (5): Because the guru is responsible for taking all of his disciples back to home, back to Godhead, I was wondering what was the position of Lord Jesus Christ because so many people for so many years have been attempting to follow his teachings, many of them sincere but not getting proper instructions. I was wondering if he is responsible for all of these people who are attempting to serve him.
Prabhupāda: But one thing is we sing daily, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. You have to please your spiritual master. But yasyāprasādān na gatiḥ kuto 'pi, if you displease your spiritual master then you are nowhere. How do you adjust these things? It does not mean that because you have made somebody spiritual master, you displease him, at the same time he takes responsibility. Is it very nice?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Śyāmasundara: They call it town crier.
Prabhupāda: Town crier, yes, yes.
Śyāmasundara: He would go around and announce.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the town crier. So the town crier began to preach that "No more any sacrifice or yajña. Stop all this nonsense. No more Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra." (chuckles) Yes, they... Just like in Russia we are afraid or China, yes. They will immediately arrest. So this declaration was there, public. Na yaṣṭavyaṁ na, no charity, no more charity. Just like government at the present moment, they are allowing charity still, but most of the portion of the income they take away by income tax so that one may not have any power to give in charity. So at the present moment, the government does not declare that charity is illegal, but that time is coming very soon, very soon. As soon as there will be Communist government... Our Indira Gandhi is cooperating with the Russians, and as soon as she is under the control of the Russians, gradually Communism will be introduced. People are afraid of this attempt by Indira Gandhi.
Prabhupāda: These people or this revolution is meant for killing the sinful resultant actions of the people. This revolution. Janatā agha, agha means resultant action of sinful life. Janatā agha viplavaḥ. Viplavaḥ means revolution, this very word is used. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api (SB 1.5.11). Such revolutionary literature, even they are not properly composed. Yasmin prati-ślokam abaddham. Not according to the grammatical rules and other rhetorical rules, but the, I mean to say, thoughts and the effects of such revolutionary literature is required. Not the grammatical. The so-called rascals, they are concerned with the grammatical. But those who are actually worker, they are concerned with the thoughts. What is the thought is there? Therefore, it is said that tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api, nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'nkitāni yat (SB 1.5.11). If there is simply the attempt is there how to glorify the Supreme Lord, that is a fact. It doesn't matter whether it is written in correct language or incorrect language, it doesn't matter. If the whole thought is targeted to glorify the Supreme Lord, then nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'nkitāni yat gṛṇanti gāyanti śṛṇvanti sādhavaḥ. Then those who are actually sādhu, even in spite of all these defects, because the only attempt is to glorify the Lord, then those who are sādhu, those who are devotee, they hear it. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti. Not only hear, they chant also the same thing. And not only chant, but gṛṇanti, they apply in their actual life. This is the Bhāgavata śloka. Is it clear now? Yes. Tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo (SB 1.5.11). If the thought is revolutionary for transcendental realization, even it is not properly composed from grammatical and literary point of view, because the attempt is there for glorifying the Supreme Lord, all devotees, all great sages, saintly persons, sādhavaḥ, gṛṇanti, they accept. Yes. Gṛṇanti śṛṇvanti, hear with attention, and gāyanti, and chant also. This is the principle. The only center is whether it is meant for awakening God consciousness. That is the central point, not the language(?). But it does not mean that it should not be correctly written. Correctly or incorrectly, if it is spoken by realized soul, that is important. Śṛṇvanti gāyanti. Somehow or other, if the attempt is to glorify the Supreme Lord; otherwise, if the attempt is to kill the Supreme Lord... Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan, what is the value of such erudition? A rascal. That is called (Sanskrit), jugglery of words. It has no value.
Prabhupāda: You do not know what is the meaning of science?
Martin: No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: Then why you call science? How do you call "This is scientific"?
Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen.
Prabhupāda: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bījaṁ māṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ (BG 7.10). The seed of this rose tree is Kṛṣṇa. All kinds of seeds are Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, from one seed you find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. And another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or variety of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, the water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Kṛṣṇa. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory the seed of... What is that tree?
John Fahey: Oh, yeah, people I heard.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that is the way of learning what is God. The main business is that one must know God. It is not that because I approach some person and he did not know, he could give me the right knowledge of God, then I give up this idea of knowing God. No. That will not..., that is not good for human life. Then you remain animal. I might have been cheated or I might not have approached the proper person, but that does not mean that I can stop that idea. That is not... In another place it is said, tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). One who is actually inquisitive to understand the highest benefit of life, he must approach a guru. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ. Jijñāsu means inquisitive. Śreya—the highest benefit of life. Uttamam-highest. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ. What is the qualification of such a person? Ṣābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ. He is completely well versed in the transcendental science. And what is the symptom that he is well versed? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. He has taken shelter of Brahma or Kṛṣṇa or God. Upāsanā-finishing all desires. These two things: he is a devotee and he has no more material desires. He must be well versed in the science, he must be a devotee, and he has no attraction for material things. These three things, if you can find, then he's perfect guru. Everything is there in the śāstra; therefore books should be consulted. If you have no books, those who are discussing books, you should approach them, you should hear them. Just like we are holding class, morning, evening. People can come here, take advantage what we are speaking, then gradually they can understand. But we cannot avoid that. That is not good idea. If I say that "I went to church. I'm not very much enlightened; therefore I give up this attempt," oh, that is not good.
Frenchman: (indistinct) ...history of many masters and many great teachers such as Jesus Christ and many others... (indistinct) ...come to... (indistinct) ...message. (indistinct) ...today on the same level.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because from God's side there is always an attempt to make the people right. As soon as they're wrongly directed, some messenger comes like Jesus Christ or Buddha or, before Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa. So what we are preaching that is not new. It is God consciousness. And all the great messiahs they came. But the thing is that people are changing in their different education mentalities. So we have to present things in such a way that intelligent person can accept the old teachings in the western countries. Like Lord Jesus Christ... Either they're not being followed or they're not properly understood because in London I saw hundreds of churches are vacant. That means that it's so practical that people have no more interest in Christianity or the Christian people could not convince them of the spiritual necessity of life. Many churches are for sale. That's not a good sign. That means people have lost interest in spiritual life but fortunately the younger generation, they are taking to this spiritual movement.
Prabhupāda: They are keeping the machine. What you will study the machine? Machine, according to his karma, that particular person this machine is given by God. Just like if you pay good price, you get a good machine. Similarly, bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61). So God is supplying him the machine and the circumstances to work. They do not find out the man who is working on the machine; they are studying the machine. Such a foolish attempt.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they work only with matter, so they forget about spirit.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is their folly. Therefore, they are rascal. That is described in the Bhāgavata, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). They are animals, so what knowledge we can expect from these rascal animals? They are animals. They may pass on as big, big scientist to another animal, but they cannot pass on as big scientist to us.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have to be spiritualized to pass.
Jayatīrtha: Just like so many times on (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: We... Anyone who is simply understanding this matter, we immediately accept him as an animal, that's all. The animals take it.
Prabhupāda: So blessings of Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor. He is a Vaiṣṇava. Although by age he is my younger brother, we are Godbrothers, and for the last forty years perhaps, since he was a student at Allahabad and I was doing some business there, we are known to each other. So his association is a great blessing for us. But this reception is actually not my reception. It is the reception of my foreign students. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted that His message should be broadcast all over the world, in every village and every town, and my Guru Mahārāja attempted. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura distributed his literature. I think, in 1896, he sent his first book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and I saw in McGill University that book. And I do not know. That was the year of my birth also, 1896. So somehow or other, later on, I came in contact with Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja in 1922, and he immediately asked me that "Why don't you go to the foreign countries and preach Caitanya Mahāprabhu's blessings." So I was little surprised.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whatever is done is done. Now, you try to correct others by behaving yourself. Otherwise, there is no need of keeping so many men. We have attempted in Vṛndāvana. A few men may remain here. That's all. Otherwise, it will be not very nice to attract when people are attracted by seeing your behavior. They are seeing that, "Oh, Europeans and Americans, they have got such nice Vaiṣṇavas." They are attracted on that point. But if we are not to the standard point, they will immediately accuse, "Oh, they are..." So that should be corrected. The same principle, āpani ācari prabhu jīvere, we should behave ourselves nicely, then teach others. Then it will be (indistinct). Another, this is general principle, now we have discussed, now we try to follow. Another thing that Keśi-ghāṭa affair. Shall we make further progress? I acquired that property (indistinct). What is your opinion? From the circumstances as that is now, because any temple, it must be nicely, very nicely managed, otherwise you cannot attract. Our Los Angeles temple we want to attract people. So it is so nicely managed, very nicely managed. You have seen. So unless, that means there must be sufficient bank balance. Such a big temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Brahmānanda: If Gandhi did it, then, they say: "Oh, now we can do it."
Prabhupāda: Gandhi started the movement from Africa. South Africa.
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gandhi was attempted to be killed in South Africa.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. One time he was crossing the street and the man beaten him so severely. He could have died. One Englishman saved him. He was attempted to be killed. After this incidence, when Gandhi returned to India, he became leader automatically. (pause) When Dr. Kalidasa-nama...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Kalidasa?
Prabhupāda: Dr. Kalidasa-nama. Did you hear his name?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Only just now.
Prabhupāda: He was our professor. So he was explaining the different ages of archaeologist, anthropology.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saṅ-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sāṅkhya. So, from the saṅkhyā, the word, it comes sāṅkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. So you are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāṅkhya philosopher. We are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāṅkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is baka. We call baka.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are all the time... They stay mostly in wet lands.
Prabhupāda: Yes, bakāṇḍa-nyāya.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The scientists, when we say that "The attempts that you are doing are no good." Then they want to make sure that what I am saying is right.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because I see that you are rascal, therefore I am right. You are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are a rascal. Therefore I am right. This is the argument. You are so rascal that you cannot admit your rascaldom. Just like this moon planet expedition. But I, sixteen years before, I told that these are rascals. Therefore I am right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They claim that "We have done so much."
Prabhupāda: What have you done? You have simply spoiled money. That's all. In that sense I have done so much. Simply by teaching people, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they are coming to such light. What do you think? I have done most wonderful thing than them.
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Pradyumna: "By practice of yoga, one becomes gradually detached from material concepts. This is the primary characteristic of the yoga principle. And after this, one becomes situated in trance, or samādhi, which means that the yogi realizes the Supersoul through transcendental mind and intelligence, without any of the misgivings of identifying the self with the Superself. Yoga practice is more or less based on the principles of the Patañjali system. Some unauthorized commentators try to identify the individual soul with the Supersoul, and the monists think this to be liberation, but they do not understand the real purpose of the Patañjali system of yoga. There is an acceptance of transcendental pleasure in the Patañjali system, but the monists do not accept this transcendental pleasure out of fear of jeopardizing the theory of oneness. The duality of knowledge and knower is not accepted by the non-dualists, but in this verse transcendental pleasure, realized through transcendental senses, is accepted, and this is corroborated by the Patañjali Muni, the famous exponent of the yoga system. The great sage declared in his Yoga-sūtras: puruṣārtha-śūnyānāṁ guṇānāṁ pratiprasavaḥ kaivalyaṁ svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti." This citi-śakti, or internal potency, is transcendental. Puruṣārtha means material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme. This "oneness with the Supreme" is called kaivalyam by the monist. But according to Patañjali, this kaivalyam is an internal, or transcendental, potency by which the living entity becomes aware of his constitutional position. In the words of Lord Caitanya, this state of affairs is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam, or clearance of the impure mirror of the mind. This "clearance" is actually liberation, or bhava-mahādāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. The theory of nirvāṇa—also preliminary—corresponds with this principle. In the Bhāgavatam this is called svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). The Bhagavad-gītā also confirms this situation in this verse.
After nirvāṇa, or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service of the Lord, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In the words of the Bhāgavatam, svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ: this is the "real life of the living entity." Māyā, or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Patañjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyam svarūpa-pratiṣṭhā vā citi-śaktir iti. This citi-śakti or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtras as ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga. Bhaktiyoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā.
In the yoga system, as described in this chapter, there are two kinds of samādhi, called samprajñāta-samādhi and asamprajñāta-samādhi. When one becomes situated in the transcendental position by various philosophical researches, it is called samprajñāta-samādhi. In the asamprajñāta-samādhi there is no longer any connection with mundane pleasure, for one is then transcendental to all sorts of happiness derived from the senses. When the yogī is once situated in that transcendental position, he is never shaken from it. Unless the yogī is able to reach this position, he is unsuccessful. Today's so-called yoga practice, which involves various sense pleasures, is contradictory. A yogī indulging in sex and intoxication is a mockery. Even those yogīs who are attracted by the siddhis (perfections) in the process of yoga are not perfectly situated. If the yogīs are attracted by the by-products of yoga, then they cannot attain the stage of perfection, as is stated in this verse. Persons, therefore, indulging in the make-show practice of gymnastic feats or siddhis should know that the aim of yoga is lost in that way.
The best practice of yoga in this age is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is not baffling. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person is so happy in his occupation that he does not aspire after any other happiness. There are many impediments, especially in this age of hypocrisy, to practicing haṭha-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and jñāna-yoga, but there is no such problem in executing karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga.
As long as the material body exists, one has to meet the demands of the body, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating. But a person who is in pure bhakti-yoga or in Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not arouse the senses while meeting the demands of the body. Rather, he accepts the bare necessities of life, making the best use of a bad bargain, and enjoys transcendental happiness in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He is callous toward incidental occurrences—such as accidents, disease, scarcity and even the death of a most dear relative—but he is always alert to execute his duties in Kṛṣṇa consciousness or bhakti-yoga. Accidents never deviate him from his duty. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, āgamāpāyino 'nityās tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. He endures all such incidental occurences because he knows that they come and go and do not affect his duties. In this way he achieves the highest perfection in yoga practice.
Prabhupāda: If you have got any question in this statement, you can ask.
Guest (1): Just, just how...?
Prabhupāda: How, that you have to learn, but this is the process.
Buddhist Monk (1): He tried whiskey. He said, "Come to vodka because vodka's whiskey here," he says, "in this country." I told him, "I don't drink that either." "What do you eat and what do you drink?!" So... He asked me, "What's the matter with you?" "There's nothing wrong with me. (laughter) I am quite healthy, and everything... I am a follower of the Buddha, and our first precept is nonviolence to all mentally conscious living beings. And that's the reason why we follow this." "Ah, you miss the steak don't you?" I said, "I miss nothing. If one wants to have vegetables prepared, there are so many ways of preparing it, healthier, and if one wants taste, it will be even more tasteful." "All right, all right. Bring him as many vegetables. And what do you drink? Beer?" I said, "No. Fruit drinks, if you have." "You order." He gave me a listing. I wanted to pay. He wouldn't allow me to pay, and he paid it. Those people are kind there. And from the time I got, went across, I could talk to anyone without any restriction. I could discuss religion with farmers, factory workers, doctors, lawyers, whom I met in the course of my visit. And they were getting interested. Because people who have not seen materialism, they are very crazy for it. But once they have it, and it is beginning to be a surfeit, and divorces and suicides and other troubles increase, nervous cases, they think, "Oh, now there is a vacuum setting in." So they are interested. I was in every east European country. They never tried to tamper with my books or my talks. Of course, I didn't organize any public talks. I didn't, made no attempt. Then Czechoslovaks, Hungarians, very warm-hearted people. There are yoga classes there. And I met quite a few Hungarians outside who referred to yoga. Then Rumanians, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians. They are friendly people. Swamiji, have you been there in eastern European countries?
Prabhupāda: I have been in Moscow.
Buddhist Monk (1): Moscow? They're friendly people. I will go back again.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I know.
Buddhist Monk (1): Yes. So it is a world which is shrinking...
Prabhupāda: The government is against any religious...
Buddhist Monk (1): Well, not so strict now as in past because the word "religion" has been used as a narcotic by people. The religious institution was kissing the state, and the state was kissing religion.
Prabhupāda: When I was in airport, the customs clearance, as soon as they saw my book, Bhagavad-gītā, they called police. (laughter)
David Lawrence: The churches in this land seem to have forgotten that. He never claimed to be God.
Prabhupāda: No, how he could claim? He's a devotee of God, he's servant of God. How he can claim? Of course, there is no difference between God and His servant. Yes. That we say. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata... **. Because a devotee, like Lord Jesus Christ, means confidential servant of God, there is no difference between God and himself. Just like any political representative or business representative, he's, if he's a confidential representative, there is no difference between the king or the proprietor of the firm, so long he represents rightly. Similarly, anyone who represents God or the cause of God, he's not different from God. We should offer respect to such person exactly like God. That is our instruction of the ācāryas. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. In every śāstra the spiritual master is recognized as personally the Supreme Lord. But in... Why he is recognized? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he's the most dear servant of the Lord. And that is natural. Suppose some representative of some firm comes, and if I know that he is the most confidential representative, I must respect him very nicely so that he may be impressed and he may report, "These people are very nice." (laughter) Oh. So this is the ordinary etiquette, what to speak of the actual representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktaḥ **. Uktaḥ means "it is already said." Tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ. Those who are advanced in devotional service, they accept this principle. But why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servant, representative. Vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. This is, we pray, offer our prayers to our spiritual master. So it is very nice. You are attempting. I am very glad. So you can inquire from me anything. The first thing I shall request you, the first principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or the first ABCD of spiritual education, is to understand the constitutional position of the living entity. He is, he is spirit soul. He's not this body. The spirit soul is living within this body, but the, the body's not the spirit soul. This thing must be understood very clearly. You know, in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Dehinaḥ, the proprietor of the body, is within this body. Dehinaḥ asmin dehe yathā. And the body is changing, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, like that. So when this body will be useless, we will take another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. This first education of spiritual life should be understood first. Then one can make progress. Then one can understand what is the constitution of God, what is our relationship with Him. But if, so long we shall remain under the bodily concept of life, this subject matter will remain difficult.
Lord Brockway: I wouldn't say it has convinced me one has to think...
Prabhupāda: No... Yes, one has to think, one has to consider. But this is the fact, that I have changed so many bodies, I remember them, but the bodies are not existing, I am existing. This is very simple philosophy. And it is stated, confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, and it is accepted by all the ācāryas, learned scholars. So there is change of body or transferring from one body to another. That's a fact. Under the circumstances, we should consider what kind of body will be nice next. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
- yānti deva-vratā devān
- pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
- bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā
- yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām
- (BG 9.25)
Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. So if you prepare yourself, you haven't got to take a machine and go to the moon planet. You can go to the moon planet. That is stated in the śāstras. You can prepare yourself. That means transfer your, yourself to a body in the moon planet. You transfer yourself for a body in the sun planet. So there are innumerable planets. And there is a planet where Kṛṣṇa lives, or God lives, also. So if you like, you can transfer yourself to a body in Kṛṣṇa's planet. These are explained here. Simply you have to adopt the prescribed method. "By following this method, you transfer to such and such planet." "By following this method, you can transfer..." There is no need of taking this mechanical... That is not possible also. It is futile attempt. You cannot go by force. Because different planets, they have got different atmosphere. So you have to transfer yourself to a suitable body which is suitable in that planet. And for that, you have to prepare. You cannot go with this body into moon planet. Because atmosphere... Some scientists say... I read in the paper that the temperature in moon planet is two hundred degrees below zero. So how you can go and live there? It is not possible. But if you want to go there, you can go there after death by preparing yourself. You transfer yourself to a body there. That you can go. So in the Bhagavad-gītā we learn that you can transfer yourself, your soul, to any planet you like, but... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If you come to that planet from which you'll not have to come back again, that is My abode." So if I have to endeavor for getting another nice body in another planet, why not apply the same energy for going back to home, back to Godhead, unto Him? This is our conclusion.
Lord Brockway: Yes. Very, very beautiful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we can simply study the beautiful flower, and we can come to God consciousness. How it is made, so beautiful, unless there is brain? And what is that brain? Then you come to God. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Para, the Supreme, has got so nice brain that things are happening as if natural. But no, the brain is acting, brain is acting. But His energy and brain is so nice that He hasn't got to do it personally. As soon as He desires, immediately the energy works. Just like nowadays electronic. So simply by pushing one bud, a button, thousands of business is done immediately. So if it is materially possible, just we have to think how much it is great and possible by spiritual energy. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. These are the Vedic description. God hasn't got to do anything with His hands. Just like here also. A big man, he has got secretaries, officers. He simply directs, "Do this," everything is done. Similarly, the Supreme Lord, how much energy He has got, and spiritual energy, that as soon as He desires something, immediately it is done. But it is done by employing energy. Not that it has come for nothing. No. This flower, it grows. There is energy. First of all, it was bud. But we cannot see how it is growing. But the act, action is going on. Therefore it is called svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. There is knowledge, there is brain, there is activity. Everything is there. But it is so quick and subtle, we cannot see. We say it is nat..., it has grown naturally. No. There is brain. How nicely it is done. Whatever color is suitable, it is there. So without color, without that brush, without that brain, without that energy, how it has come? How we can think of? Even if you make an artificial flower, oh, you have to take so many colors, you have to take brush, you have to apply your brain. So it has no brain behind? Simply explaining "nature." What is that nature? The nature is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. So those who can study, they can study even from this flower what is the greatness of God. This is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything he sees the hand of God. That is God consciousness. And when a man becomes God conscious, then he's qualified with all good qualities. That is God consciousness. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If you train a person to become God conscious, then all the good qualities automatically becomes manifest in him. So why not try this? Make a school simply to make people God conscious. You'll find nice people are coming. All good character. And you can take any service from them, good service. This should be attempted. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ (SB 5.18.12). And without God consciousness, there cannot be any good qualities. Just like President Nixon. He's exalted.
Prabhupāda: So he should be insulted everywhere. Our men should go and do that, pie. (laughter) And when you have to (indistinct) He's God. Why can't you protect. He should have been killed. We have no such power. Otherwise, I would have obliged to kill him. Anyone says God, he should be killed. That is the example given by Kṛṣṇa. He should be killed. No other remedy. Only kill him. That's all. Then this false propaganda will stop. Just like the Christians said: Jesus Christ, God. And how God can be killed by crucification? We do not discuss this point, but actually this is the fact. He was empowered man, that we can understand. But we cannot accept him God. In our history, God is never killed. God kills others. That we have got evidence. And ordinary men, they took him, and crucified, and nobody, other, of the opposite party was killed. So that makes a little difference. So far son of God, that we accept. Everyone is son of God. We accept him śaktyāveśa avatāra, a living entity especially powered from God. That we can accept. So son of God we can accept. That is another thing. And where is the evidence in the śāstras that God was killed? Big, big giant, God fought them and killed them. Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Kaṁsa. Very, very great giant and demon. God was never killed by them. Is it not? Yes. Prahlāda Mahārāja said that: "What is this material power. My father was so materially strong. Even demigods and Indra, Candra, they were afraid. And He killed him within a moment. So what is the use of this material power?" And the God could not kill these crucifiers? As soon as they attempted to kill, there would have, He has, would have fought. He had to show some power. And they say that he agreed to take all our sin, and he crucified. Is it not? They say?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the idea.
Prabhupāda: Oh. There are so many songs. So you have devotional tendency. Develop it. Make your life successful. That is my humble suggestion. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā bi... Anyone who has got this human form of life, he does not engage himself in developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he's drinking poison knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Biṣa means poison. A great opportunity, this human life. That is our mission, that this modern civilization, they have created such entanglement that people are rotting and they are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Only on the basis of this bodily concept of life.
- yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
- sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
- yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
- janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
- (SB 10.84.13)
So by order of our superiors, we are trying to introduce. But we are very unhappy, seeing these people. They are spoiling their life in the bodily concept of life. He does not know what is going to happen next life. But there is a next life. That's a fact. As we had past life as child, as boy, as young man, similarly, we have past life also. This simple truth, they cannot understand. Or there is no attempt in the educational field.
Pradyumna: I just have the black one.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Kāmaṁ vavarṣa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4). During Mahārāja Parīkṣit's time, one black man was attempting to kill a cow. Immediately the king wanted to kill him, immediately: "Oh, who are you?" It is the duty of the vaiśyas. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam vaiśya-karma-svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). It is the duty of the vaiśyas to protect the cows, to increase agricultural activities and trade. But they are now interested in producing electronic parts. No go-rakṣya, no vāṇijyam, no food production. Cheap profit, and for eating, let there be slaughterhouse and eat meat. And to digest meat, you drink wine. This is being taught. So you create the situation and when you suffer, then why should we lament? We have created this situation, godless civilization, do not follow the direction of the śāstras. When we follow, what is that kāmam?
Prabhupāda: ...all right. The family will live on not forever. They'll live also, say, for few days. Just we go sometimes in... Just like in England, the castles are there, very old castle, thousand years, two thousand... Even this Westminster Abbey and palace, but which king has lived for there permanently? And now, if you know more, if the king has, by his work, become something else. Not necessarily he'll become a king in that house. He may become a dog there. This science they do not know. And they are proud of their education, culture. Suppose we are constructing the Vṛndāvana temple or Bombay temple. It is also certain we shall not live, but our attempt to construct that temple will be recorded in Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Because he has spent his energy for My service." That will be our gain. Others, they, whatever they are working... Ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. Find out this verse. Ko vā. Ko vārtha āpto 'bhajatāṁ sva-dharmataḥ. This is in Bhāgavata.
Prabhupāda: By knowledge... Because it is offered to Kṛṣṇa. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there. So anything which is accepted in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is spiritual thing.
Umāpati: In perfect knowledge, would the first step be faith that it is offered to Kṛṣṇa? One may, may make an offering without being...
Prabhupāda: Well, he must learn under superior direction. Otherwise, how he can offer?
Umāpati: Well, he may make an attempt. There is a natural impulse to serve, a natural impulse to offer in man, and he may not be aware that he is seeking Kṛṣṇa in his conditioned state. Then, if...
Prabhupāda: Then whom he's offering? If he doesn't know Kṛṣṇa...
Umāpati: That is his ignorance. If he is seeking.
Prabhupāda: Then, if he's in ignorance, what is the value of his offering?
Umāpati: I did not hear the last point.
Hṛdayānanda: If he's in ignorance, what is the value of the offering?
Umāpati: That is true.
Hṛdayānanda: He needs a spiritual master.
Umāpati: Yes.
Karandhara: They say, "the best use of a bad bargain."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?
Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Karandhara: They say you can't separate...
Prabhupāda: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.
Prajāpati: So therefore, because we're not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prajāpati: ...It always has been.
Prabhupāda: Our, this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post it is all right. If we don't get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Kṛṣṇa. He came to preach, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And did everybody do so, sarva-dharmān? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's just a form of preaching.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process.
Prabhupāda: That is another bluff. Now the small plan they could not make successful. Now they are thinking of bigger plan. You see?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are planning to go to Mars now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another bluff. Another bluff. The smaller plan, they could not make successful. Now they're attempting bigger plan. Bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala.(?) Betagor... There is a story that there was river. You know, horse can swim over. So big, big stalwart horses, they waved, mean, they washed away by the flood. So one lean and thin horse is coming, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" It is like bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala. (?) So these rascals could not reach even the moon planet; now they are planning to the Mars planet. Just see. And another rascal will believe him. That, What you have done for the, which is the nearest planet?
Karandhara: Well, they say they've done everything they wanted to do with the moon. They say they've accomplished everything they wanted to on the moon.
Prabhupāda: So you are not successful. That's a fact.
Karandhara: Oh yes. Millions of dollars.
Prabhupāda: Just see how they are spending, squandering public money. You see? But nobody is to stop this.
Prajāpati: The demons have always been trying to make staircases and towers up to heaven.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Demonic.
Prajāpati: In the Bible, it is also. An attempt was made to build a big, huge tower up to heaven. And the Lord was not very pleased with this attempt, and He scattered all the people. (about the ocean) Just wants to touch your lotus feet, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Big, powerful waves.
Prabhupāda: No, not very much. Up to this powerful. (laughter) Up to ten feet, that's all.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Govardhana: Detroit.
Prabhupāda: Oh, he attempted it?
Govardhana: Yes, but we prevented him.
Prabhupāda: So we must be careful. There may be so many fanatics.
Govardhana: That shows that because he was not in the constant association of devotees that he lost those qualities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. So why did you not arrest him and give to the police?
Govardhana: We did. We beat him. Then we took him to court and had him put in jail for three months.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice. Yes.
Govardhana: But how is it that he was coming and becoming enthusiastic about Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: ...coming, but he was interrupted by another rascal. He was advised by another rascal.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) It is not like that, but we can say, wherever Kṛṣṇa topics are there, it is as good as Vaikuṇṭha or Vṛndāvana. (break) ...prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ. By association, bodhayantaḥ parasparam. These things are there in the Bhagavad-gītā. (break) ...enjoy and be satisfied in the association of devotees. (break) ...article on the subject of "Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist," and let us publish it. That article is very nice. If he writes such articles, the conclusion, if Kṛṣṇa, the supreme scientist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme economist, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme philosopher, Kṛṣṇa, the supreme chemist, Kṛṣṇa—everything, the conclusion is Supreme, Kṛṣṇa—then his activity is fulfilled. He becomes successful. The conclusion should be Kṛṣṇa. That's it. Whatever he may be. He may be a musician, he may be artist, he may be physicist, he may be chemist, he may be scientist—whatever he may be, if he writes article on the subject matter and concludes that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, then preach, then he is successful. That's all. Just like you are theologian. You write theology and prove, "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." Then your attempt is successful. (break) We are trying to understand the Supreme, so therefore, as soon as you come to the Supreme, you are successful. (break) ...uttama-śloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. This is success. With your talent, you simply come to the conclusion that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme. That's all. So our business is, because we are neither scientist nor musician, nothing of the sort, layman, we have simply said, "Kṛṣṇa Supreme." That's all.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: If one is Vaiṣṇava, then to glorify him is..., that's not...
Hanumān: So that's all right.
Satsvarūpa: As long as that Vaiṣṇava is following the principles.
Prabhupāda: But they should not attempt like that in the presence of their spiritual master. That is not good. When you found this?
Satsvarūpa: When did you find they were doing this?
Hanumān: When I was there. I was in Brazil about three months ago. And the only books they had published is a book written by Siddha-svarūpa Gosvāmī. They had published one book of him, and they were distributing this.
Prabhupāda: What is the name of that book?
Hanumān: It was an introduction to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, question and answer.
Prabhupāda: You have seen that book?
Hanumān: Yes, Prabhupāda. I have give to Karandhara.
Prabhupāda: So is there anything awkward against our devotional life?
Karandhara: I can't read it. It's in Portuguese.
Prabhupāda: Oh, it was in Portuguese language.
Prabhupāda: Ah yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, yes. She invited me this time.
Yaśomatīnandana: She is writer, I think.
Prabhupāda: Yes. She is very educated. Now, her husband made very great attempt for publishing book, but there is no sufficient customer. Now the press is going to be sold, and nobody customer. That is letter-setting press. Now it is obsolete. So they were perplexed. She wanted that I shall purchase. And what shall I do with this press? Letter setting is now abolished. That is not good job now. There must be litho press or, what is called, offset. Yes.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if... Since Kṛṣṇa is the power that gives the demigods the ability to render everything, then why is it recommended in the Nectar of Devotion that a Vaiṣṇava should worship Gaṇapati?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa worship, everyone. Just like we worship also ordinary man if it gives us facility to worship Kṛṣṇa. We go to somebody and worship him, flatter him, because he will give some money, and it will be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. The man is not worshipable, but he will help us to worship Kṛṣṇa. Thereby he will be helped and we will be also helped, and Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied that "My devotee has brought some money from this rascal. All right." That is... (laughter) So Gaṇapati is also devotee. So Gaṇapati, it is not required, but sometimes we do. Just like gopīs, they worshiped Goddess Durgā, Kātyāyanī. They did not require, but the social system is that. But they asked that Mother Kātyāyanī, give us the opportunity to have Kṛṣṇa as our husband." The aim is Kṛṣṇa. Generally, they go to worship Devī Durgā for asking material benefit. Dhanaṁ dehi rūpaṁ dehi yaśo dehi, the things which we want in material... But the gopīs, they do not go for any material things. For Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, we can go to any demigod. Why Gaṇapati? Everyone. But our prayer should be, "Please give us Kṛṣṇa." Then it is correct.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Guru dāsa: Because there is so much demand. He wants to see it. He wants to see it.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you get the manuscript and let us have an Indian edition. I told Rūpānuga that the difficulty is that the enlarged edition when we are attempting to publish, MacMillan says that "We are publishing your book, why not we, we publish." If we publish, then we save our investment to publish. That has not been decided, so therefore I advised my secretary in New York that MacMillan's permission or no permission, you should immediately print. If they print it is all right, otherwise print ourself.
Dr. Kapoor: Haven't you given the copyright to them?
Prabhupāda: No, copyright is mine.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Guest (5): Can you get, get it, published in India.
Prabhupāda: In India, yes. No, by publisher, especially publisher like MacMillan you save so much time and investment also. We are not for profit. We want to see the publication in the market, so in that sense we save so much trouble, but they always look after their business profit.
Dr. Patel: Khaṁ manaḥ eva ca.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all material.
Dr. Patel: But... But even in, even in...
Prabhupāda: The so-called jñānīs, they are on the mental platform. Therefore, they are also materialists. Therefore Brahmā... You'll find in that Brahma-stotra, jñāne prayāsam udapāsya: "Give up this attempt to reach the Supreme by mental speculation." Jñāne prayāsam uda..., namanta eva: "Be submissive." Namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām: "Just hear from devotee the news of the message of God, Kṛṣṇa." That is the process recommended. Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva sanmukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. Sthāne sthitāḥ. You haven't got to change your place. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. You hear from the realized soul and try to apply in your practical life. Then, one day, although God is unconquerable, He will be conquered by you. This is recommendation by Brahmā.
Dr. Patel: I heard sometimes in bhakti-yoga that you have to become pure, you have got to leave your body consciousness and become soul conscious...
Prabhupāda: That is soul consciousness.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Sputniks.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Have you read that?
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yes. It is very nice.
Prabhupāda: So we can boldly say on the strength of Vedic literature that all these attempts are childish and those who are attempting, they're all fools and rascals. That's all. Now they're silent about moon expedition. They're trying to go to Venus. What happened to moon, moon planet?
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Yeah right.
Prabhupāda: Another diversion. That's all.
Siddha-svarūpānanda: Just wasting money and time.
Prabhupāda: Another diversion of attention so that they can exploit public money in that way. And the public is also fooled that they believe all this nonsense.
Prabhupāda: That is philosophy. Darśana. Darśana means search out what is the ultimate. Jñānī ca bharatarṣabha (BG 7.16). Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna, ārto 'rthārthī jñānī ca bharatarṣabha, arto 'rthārthī jijñāsur jñānī ca bharatarṣabha. These are philosophers. Even the ārtaḥ, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye śṛgāla rājā.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than śūdras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye śṛgāla rājā. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than śūdras and caṇḍālas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.
Mahāṁsa: We cannot actually conceive of all these things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The conclusion is that Kṛṣṇa being the reservoir of all pleasure, so the pleasure of fighting is there. So He can exhibit anywhere. (break) That is the understanding of Kṛṣṇa. As soon as we limit Kṛṣṇa like one of us, or little bigger than me, then I become doctor frog. (aside:) Don't come near. Why don't you tell them? (break)
Girirāja: "...Vasudeva attempted to take His son from the delivery room, and exactly at that time, a daughter was born of Nanda and Yaśodā. She was Yogamāyā, the internal potency of the Lord. By the influence of His internal potency, Yogamāyā, all the residents of Kaṁsa's palace, especially the doorkeepers, were overwhelmed with deep sleep and all the palace doors opened although they were barred and shackled with iron chains. The night was very dark, but as soon as Vasudeva took Kṛṣṇa on His lap and went out, he could see everything just as in the sunlight." (break)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) ...he worships like anything. Then he... We have an assembly, and they passed by majority vote that I should refrain from coming here, but I somehow or other came.
Prabhupāda: But I saw and offer my obeisances to your motorcar. (laughter) I was thinking that "Dr. Patel's representative, the car is here."
Indian Man (1): The same thing happens with so many other books also because it is not known properly to proper persons...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. Why do they touch of writing books? They are foolish people. Why they should attempt to write books and mislead others? That is our protest. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa's life in two big, big volumes.
Indian Man (1): But these volumes are very short, sir.
Prabhupāda: Yes, no, the lowest. But they have not written even a page about Kṛṣṇa's life. And writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. Just see how much rascal they are. Not even a page. Rather, they deny, "There was no Kṛṣṇa." Just see how much foolish they are, and they are writing comments on Bhagavad-gītā. That is our regret, that how these rascals dare to write on Bhagavad-gītā? (break)
Girirāja: "...when Vasudeva was born..." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...said, "When there is danger, it is a great opportunity for remembering God." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamānaḥ (SB 10.14.8).
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Whole attempt is to be out of miserable condition. Just like medicine. What is the medicine? Medicine means an attempt to get out of the miserable condition of disease. But you cannot stop disease. You may discover very improved method of medical treatment, but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. You can, I mean to say, discover many means to stop death—that is going on—but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. So in this way... And the Bhagavad-gītā says that you might be very advanced in civilization and scientific knowledge to make improvement, the condition of life, but you cannot make solution of these things, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot counteract these things. Still you have to...
Richard Webster: Do you think it's worse now than it used to be? Can you say that it is worse, the condition of the world is worse now than it used to be or is it relatively the same or...?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Worse now in these days because people cannot eat even. The facility which is given to the birds and beasts... They have no problem of eating. But you have created such a civilization that people are facing the problem so acutely that they have no means to eat. Do you think it is progress?
Richard Webster: Well, I would tend to doubt it very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem.
Prabhupāda: Read the purport.
Nitāi: There are various grades of men, and out of many thousands one may be sufficiently interested in transcendental realization to try to know what is the self, what is the body, and what is the Absolute Truth. Generally mankind is simply engaged in the animal propensities, namely eating, sleeping, defending and mating, and hardly anyone is interested in transcendental knowledge. The first six chapters of the Gītā are meant for those who are interested in transcendental knowledge, in understanding the self, the Superself and the process of realization by jñāna-yoga, dhyāna-yoga, and discrimination of the self from matter. However, Kṛṣṇa can only be known by persons who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Other transcendentalists may achieve impersonal Brahman realization, for this is easier than understanding Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, but at the same time He is beyond the knowledge of Brahman and Paramātmā. The yogīs and jñānīs are confused in their attempts to understand Kṛṣṇa, although the greatest of the impersonalists, Śrīpāda Śaṅkarācārya, has admitted in his Gītā commentary that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But his followers do not accept Kṛṣṇa as such, for it is very difficult to know Kṛṣṇa, even though one has transcendental realization of impersonal Brahman.
Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the primeval Lord Govinda. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1). It is very difficult for the nondevotees to know Him. Although nondevotees declare that the path of bhakti or devotional service is very easy, they cannot practice it. If the path of bhakti is so easy, as the nondevotee class of men proclaim, then why do they take up the difficult path? Actually the path of bhakti is not easy. The so-called path of bhakti practiced by unauthorized persons without knowledge of bhakti may be easy, but when it is practiced factually according to the rules and regulations, the speculative scholars and philosophers fall away from the path. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
- śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi-pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā
- aikāntikī harer bhaktir utpātāyaiva kalpate.
- (Brs. 1.2.101)
"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads, Purāṇas, Nārada Pañcarātra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."
It is not possible for the Brahman realized impersonalist or the Paramātmā realized yogī to understand Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the son of Mother Yaśodā or the charioteer of Arjuna. Even the great demigods are sometimes confused about Kṛṣṇa: "muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ," "māṁ tu veda na kaścana." "No one knows Me as I am," the Lord says. And if one does know Him, then "sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ." "Such a great soul is very rare." Therefore unless one practices devotional service to the Lord, he cannot know Kṛṣṇa as He is (tattvataḥ), even though one is a great scholar or philosopher. Only the pure devotees can know something of the inconceivable transcendental qualities in Kṛṣṇa, in the cause of all causes, in His omnipotence and opulence, and in His wealth, fame, strength, beauty, knowledge and renunciation, because Kṛṣṇa is benevolently inclined to His devotees. He is the last word in Brahman realization, and the devotees alone can realize Him as He is. Therefore it is said:
- ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyāiḥ
- sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ
- (Brs. 1.2.234)
"No one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is by the blunt material senses. But He reveals Himself to the devotees, being pleased with them for their transcendental loving service unto Him." (Padma Purāṇa)
Prabhupāda: So the position is, that hardly, out of many millions, one can actually understand what is God. So our field of activity is everywhere in that sense, not in this particular and that particular... Because in truth hardly very few people understands what is God.
Nitāi: Fourteen. Yeah, let me see it to read it. So it says here, "The best process of understanding You is to submissively give up the speculative process and try to hear about You either from Yourself, as You have given statements in the Bhagavad-gītā and many other similar Vedic literatures, or from a realized devotee, who has taken shelter at Your lotus feet. One has to hear from a devotee without speculation. One does not even need to change his worldly position. Simply he has to hear Your message. Although You are not understandable by the material senses, simply by hearing about You one can gradually conquer the nescience of misunderstanding. By Your grace only, You become revealed to the devotee. You are unconquerable by any other means. Speculative knowledge without any trace of devotional service is simply useless waste of time in search for You. Devotional service is so important that even a little attempt can raise one to the highest perfectional platform. One should not therefore neglect this auspicious process of devotional service and take to the speculative method. By the speculative method, one may gain partial knowledge of Your cosmic manifestation, but it is not possible to understand You, the origin of everything. The attempt of persons who are interested only in speculative knowledge is simply wasted labor, like the labor of a person who attempts to gain something by beating the empty husk of rice paddy. A little quantity of paddy can be husked by the grinding wheel, and one can gain some grains of rice, but if the skin, the paddy, is already beaten by the grinding wheel, there is no further gain in beating the husk. It is simply useless labor."
Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water." It is not written like this, "Perhaps," "it may be." No. Neither says one million or 800,000. No. 900,000 specifically. So how do they get this knowledge, exactly seeing? Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati (?). Now, in another place, the magnitude of the soul is explained. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya (CC Madhya 19.140). In the Upaniṣad also it is stated that 10,000th part of the top of the hair point, is the magnitude of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, the living entity is called puruṣa, and that puruṣa wants to enjoy the prakṛti.
M. Lallier: Is it possible to... (French)
Pṛthu Putra: Is it possible for the soul to enjoy the material nature?
Prabhupāda: It is not possible, but he's trying to do that. That is the disease. Just like in your country, Napoleon, he tried his best to use whole Europe to be controlled by him. So he made some attempt, but he is finished now. The Europe is there, but he's gone away. Similarly, it is just like... The example is: Just like a fly wants to enjoy the fire. He comes with force there, and he is finished. Similarly, in this material world, every, all living entities, they're trying to enjoy. With great force, they are coming. And different capacities, they try to enjoy, but they themselves become finished. The things remain where it was. So so many living entities... Exa... The example, the fly is very proper. So many flies are coming, (makes sound:) "Phut! Phut! Phut! Phut!" in the big fire. You have no experience here?
Jyotirmayī: Yes.
M. Lallier: Why living entities does go to material...?
Yogeśvara: Why does the living entity try to enjoy material nature in such a way?
Prabhupāda: The, the... When he forgets that he cannot enjoy, the only enjoyer is God, Kṛṣṇa, when he forgets this principle he wants to enjoy.
Prabhupāda: So that existed temporarily. Now it is gone. That will not appeal. (French)
Yogeśvara: In other words, what he's suggesting is that that's not actually an argument because the important thing is that there were times, at different times, different people have come and have attempted or have actually represented the public sentiment. They have become the epitome or resume' or synthesis of the public sentiment at a particular period. In other words, he's saying the great reform..., the great preachers, they've always been representatives of people; instead of being representatives of Kṛṣṇa, or God, they've been the representatives of the people.
Prabhupāda: The people's representative is different from God's representative. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that "Well, that's a belief." You have to believe that. He said that's only a belief.
Prabhupāda: No, people change according to the time, circumstances, they change. Their opinion has no value. We don't give any value to the people's opinion. We give value to the Supreme Being's opinion. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that that's dangerous because then we run the risk of having people who say, "Well, I represent the word of God. I can give you the true interpretation of the word of God, and they're actually only interested personal, private interests..."
Prabhupāda: No, if... If people... Not all. If there is actually opinion of God, if one man says the same opinion, then how others can say that "You all not giving God's opinion." God said, Kṛṣṇa said, that "You surrender to Me," and if I say that "You surrender to God," then how I am deviating from God's instruction? (French)
Yogeśvara: In other words, what you're saying is that, in essence we must stick to the words of God without interpreting." (aside:) Is that what he said?
Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it. That we want.
Yogeśvara: Shraddhananda Giri.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He said that "Swamiji, you are doing the greatest work, that God's name you are distributing." He said like that. And when the record was going on, he was very rapt attention, he was very... So actual yogi means he'll be attracted by bhakti-yoga. And these gymnasticians, what they'll understand about yoga? That is a process to control the mind. Those who are too much bodily concept of life, for them that exercise is required. But that is also not properly done. They must find out a very sacred place and practice yoga alone, not with group. Group is possible in bhakti-yoga, not this haṭha-yoga. That is not possible. The first attempt is condemned. Therefore all the yogis in India, actually those who are practicing yoga, they'll live outside human society. They never live in the city and get students to get them practice. And take thirty-five dollar fee. These are all bogus.
Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists have agreed amongst themselves that "As many theories, as many ways to God."
Prabhupāda: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the śāstra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga.
Paramahaṁsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Paramahaṁsa: They argue that all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa. So why is one better than another?
Prabhupāda: If you know that all paths leads to Kṛṣṇa, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They say one man's food is another man's poison. So perhaps this process isn't practical for everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you take the poison and die. Because you do not understand easily, better you take poison and die.
Paramahaṁsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know...
Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? (break) ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? (break) That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya.
Paramahaṁsa: Do people naturally act sinfully, or is that something that they develop?
Prabhupāda: Hm? By association. If you mix with the drunkards, you'll learn how to drink. And if you mix with the devotees, similarly, you can become cleansed. By the association. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ. One's desires develop according to the association.
Dr. P. J. Saher: But I live my identity with the body.
Prabhupāda: With the body. But the body is false, false in this sense, that you are not this body. You are simply... Just like I am occupying this apartment, but I am not this apartment. I am different from this apartment. This is understanding. So if you take interest of the apartment and you forget yourself, that is false. (German) If I simply decorate this body, apartment, and I don't eat myself, then what is the... This is false attempt, that we are trying... This is called. In the Bhāgavata it is said that aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanaṁ loka-rañjanam. Now, this body, just you or I, everyone, we are nicely dressed. But if the life is gone from the body, if you dress the body, is that very good intelligence? You have understood? That I am dressing, so long my life is there, I am dressing very nicely this body, but when the body is dead, if you dress the body or somebody or your relative dresses nicely, it is very good intelligence? (German) (break)
Vedavyāsa: ...example of this comparison with a room and the body is not very good because he says...
Prabhupāda: But because he does not know that he is not this body.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned souls that they are struggling for existence. Instead of finding out how to come to the original consciousness and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means love. So everyone is struggling hard how to reach the platform of love. So many institutions-philanthropic, international, United Nations. The only attempt, how to love each other. But they'll struggle, they'll not attain the platform, simply struggle. There have been so many attempts, even the favorite example, the United Nations. How much they are doing and people have got the idea of philanthropism, countryism, communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is they are trying to come to the platform of love.
Guest: I see.
Prabhupāda: But they are manufacturing their own way. But Kṛṣṇa showed, "Not in this way, simply make Me center and the whole thing (indistinct)." But that they'll not do. They'll do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me, my idea will clash with you, the same struggle continues. The communists will not agree with the others, the capitalists. The capitalist will not agree. But they are struggling to come to that, the platform of love.
Prabhupāda: Then that servant, while he was employed, there was an urgent business. The rich man said that "Tomorrow I am going. You must come and go with me." So suppose he was to go at ten o'clock. Then at nine o'clock a messenger came: "You are ready?" "No, just I am cooking. Then I shall finish my cooking, take my meals and then we shall go." So he was very angrily inquired, "So why you did not...?" "No, I am cooking." "Where you are cooking?" Now, he has three bamboos, and on the top there was a pot, rice pot, and he was giving fire here. So that rich man came and saw. "What kind of cooking this is?" "No, there is heat. It is going on." (laughter) "So how you do this, such a nonsense." "No, if the temperature from the lamp on the roof of the sky could protect that man, why not it will be cooking?" Then he could understand this is the reply. So that man was paid. So this kind of progress, cooking, three miles above, a pot, a little fire, it will not act. There must be proper adjustment of cooking. Then you can cook food and eat. A little smoke or little fire and three miles away the cooking pot, in this way, cooking is useless attempt. One must be serious to cook. There is method how to cook. If you don't adopt that method and if you cook in your whimsical way, you will never be able to eat. If you say, "I shall cook in my way," and if you adopt that process, will it help? Na siddhiṁ sa avāpnoti na sukhaṁ na paraṁ... So what are these things? (break) ...on the floor. But this instruction was for you, that you are keeping. I never keep my Bhāgavata on the floor. I keep always my head. So better you take it. (laughter) I keep my Bhāgavata either on this table or on the head and never on the floor. So that is for you. (laughter) Yes. Then next? (laughter) Yes. It is good, nice.
Guest (2): Could we return to your opening remarks, sir, concerning the impact of science. I think it's fair to comment that Dr. Muncing has taken the lead in C.S.R.O. in attempting to bring out the social theme of science, if it has one. He might like to enlarge on that somewhat.
Dr. Muncing: Well, I'm not sure that I could call it the social theme of science. I'm concerned with building research. We came to realize three or four years ago that whilst we had got a long way in understanding the material things that go to make up houses and cities, we were a long way from knowing what people wanted the thing that gets called quality of life. We have been beginning to look at this subject, commencing in the first place in northwestern Australia where there are a lot of mining activity, and there people go for a short time. They go to fairly small settlements, and we were interested in how important the housing was in the total. We've got a long way to go, and this looks to be a fairly interesting area. Unless you want to ask about that, I think I'd be interested in what further things Australia should be helping Asia with. We've spoken about milk things already, and I hope before we finish you can tell us what things we should be learning of Asia that we haven't learned in the past.
Madhudviṣa: He wants... He would like to know what you think that Australia should help Asia with as far as making people more comfortable to live in this world and what Australia can imbibe from Asia as far as teaching in science as well as general living.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So far I have studied, not only Australia, but also America and Africa, there are immense land uncultivated. So I think all these countries... The population increased in India, China, and similar other places. They should allow to come them, come here and produce food grains. If you cannot manage the over-populated countries, they should come. If the government allows, they would immediately come and utilize the vast land for producing food grains. And in the Bhagavad-gītā we have the statement-find out, annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni.
Dr. Harrap: I think you could add to that, Roy, that an attempt to grow grain in large areas of Australia would significantly damage the ecology, and from reading your writings, I suspect that this would be completely unacceptable to your way of thinking, that one doesn't disturb the natural life cycles of innumerable creatures in order to grow more grain because the terrain is just not suited to the grain growing.
Prabhupāda: The land is not suitable?
Madhudviṣa: Well, in Australia there is vast areas which cannot be cultivated, like deserts and semi-deserts. The gentleman's contention is that if we try to grow grains in a semi-desert area it would throw off the balance of the natural, the natural pulse of the earth, let us say, and it would cause havoc in other fields. One of the basic things that our spiritual master is putting forward is that if we put an emphasis on producing food grains and milk and vegetables to live on, concentrating on those points instead of complicating our lives with great industries for cosmetics and film industries and things that are really not essential to us... There's people that don't have the essentials and other people who have all the trappings of the modern technological science. Our spiritual master's contention is that real happiness lies in simple living and high thinking and this is the education that we're trying to put forward. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...these are all misconceptions because I am not this body. I am spirit soul. When the spirit soul goes away, then where is the distinction? Suppose in hospital some Hindu dies or some Muslim dies, some Christian die, the spirit... They are stacked together as useless matter. Is it not? There is no distinction there now, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, white, black. Now it is dead body, put aside. Eh? So, but when living, when the spirit soul is there, they are dividing, this designation. So this knowledge that so long the spirit soul is there in the body, it is important. As soon as the soul is gone, it is useless. But people are giving more stress on the body than on the active principle, living force, what is there. There is no study. Suppose you are all scientists. What is your studying about that living force that is moving the body?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The result of this violation of the laws of nature is that...
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot violate. That is not possible. There is no question of violating. Simply childish attempt. That's all. You cannot violate it. That is not possible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they are... They are planning to make a... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: That is childish. That is childish. "They are planning." That is childish. Although they are being repeatedly baffled, still trying. This is childish.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have already timetable worked out.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That in two thousand years they are going to make...
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that he'll not live for two thousand years. Then the bluff cannot be shown. Violation is not possible, sir. That is not possible. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). You are trying to violate, but here are the four principles. It is not possible. You cannot violate. There is death; you cannot violate this. As soon as the time will come, you must die. Finished, all your scientific research. Four millions, trillions, and you can say, at that time there was no civilized man. At that time man was dying and animal was dying. And at this time man is dying and animal is dying. So what improvement you have made? There is no improvement.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—then there is no more pains and pleasure. So that means the origin of pains and pleasure is to our attachment to this material body. If we can somehow or other get out of this material body, then there is no more pains and pleasure or it is simply pleasure. Therefore in the Vedānta-sūtra it is said, ānandamāyaḥ abhyāsāt. "By nature the spirit soul is joyful." In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati: (BG 18.54) "As soon as you become spiritually self-realized, then there is no more pains and pleasure." So pleasure means absence of pain. So in your spiritual identity there is no pain, therefore it is simply pleasure. Therefore our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body. Spiritual body is there already. It is covered by the material body, but some way or other, if we stop the covering of the material body, then we are simply in pleasure. Therefore our only attempt in this human body should be how to revive our spiritual body. And that process is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That... Open that verse, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti kaunteya (BG 4.9).
Rūpānuga: Yes, they want to be God.
Prabhupāda: So how we can respect the demons? We cannot.
Rūpānuga: No. We'll not give them any credit.
Prabhupāda: The other fools, they can give some respect, but we are not going to do that. We say, "You will never be able." You can say. This rascal, we can give some knowledge, that "Your this attempt will be failure," because we know life cannot be created. How he will create? We know the formula, na jāyate. So how this rascal will be able to create? I am not a scientist, but on the strength of Bhagavad-gītā's assertion, na jāyate na mriyate. "Neither it is created; neither it dies." So if somebody wants to create, then at once we shall call him a fool. We have got test tube. Very boldly we shall say. Now let them prove that can he create. This is our position. So Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he has got very strong position. He speaks just what Kṛṣṇa speaks. That's all, finished.
Rūpānuga: They're like you described yesterday, when the scorpion comes from the rice. They think that when some living entity becomes manifest that he's being created. That's because the material...
Prabhupāda: That also he cannot do.
Prabhupāda: That is the position of the conditioned soul. They are struggling for existence. Existence means finding out how to come to the original consciousness, and that is struggle. Kṛṣṇa means "love," so everyone is struggling hard how to be in the platform of love. So many institution-philanthropy, international and the United Nation—the only attempt: how to love each other. But they are struggling. They have not attained the platform, simply struggling. There have been so many attempts to unite. The vivid example is the United Nation. Formerly that was League of Nation. And people are manufacturing ideas, philanthropism and altruism, Communism, communityism, this ism, that ism. The only thing is, they are trying to come to the platform of love. But they are manufacturing their own way. The Kṛṣṇa solves, that "Not in this way. Simply make Me center, and the whole thing will be done." But that they will not do. They will do in their own way, concocting some idea. And your idea will clash with me; my idea will clash with you. So same struggle continues, that's all. The Communist will not agree with the others, or capitalists, and capitalists will not agree with the Communists. But they are struggling to come to that point, the platform of love.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Where is the actual attempt to give everyone sufficient food? Where is that attempt? And here in the Bhagavad-gītā it is plainly said, annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) if you want to keep happy the animals and the men, then produce food grain. Who is doing that? They simply passing resolution and raising funds and then eating, themself, at the cost of others. And therefore the price is increasing. One who has got money, he can pay more price, artificial. I am poor man. I have no money. You have got money. You purchase before me. Then I starve. But if there is sufficient supply of food grain, then this thing will not happen. You can distribute without any price. That was being done in India. Educated man means unemployment, is it not? So-called education means creating unemployment. They will go with application, "Give me some clerical post, some this post, that post, that post." This is education.
Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...
Guest: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.
Prabhupāda: Being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. And they are trying to lead other blind men. So what will be the result? All of them will fall down on the ditch.
Guest: And they attempt to lead others...
Prabhupāda: Blind men. Therefore this fact is summarized in the Bhagavad-gītā in the words,
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- māyayāpahṛta jñānā
- āsuri-bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
Because they have denied the existence of God, therefore they are blind and they are engaged in sinful activities without knowing what is going to happen next in his life. Therefore mūḍha, rascal. And narādhamāḥ. Narādhamāḥ means lowest of the mankind, because in the human form of life one could understand what is God, but he is misusing his intelligence for something else, narādhamāḥ. But if you say, "They are educated. They have got so much education. Why do you condemn them?" then the answer is māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. This so-called knowledge they have acquired, that means māyā has made them more foolish. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says,
jaḍa-vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava,
- jībake karaye gāḍhā
He has said like that, that so far advancement of material education means that so-called educated man is becoming more, more, more an ass.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: Against religion.
Prabhupāda: Not against religion. Against Indian culture.
Rāmeśvara: Against Indian cultu...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Britishers made so many attempts that "Indians were uncivilized, and we have come here to make them civilized."
Rāmeśvara: So for colonialism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to... Because there are other powers, so they are envious that "Why these rascals, they occupy India?" So, so just to support this occupation, I mean to say, yes, occupation, and..., they made so many propaganda. Even during Gandhi's movement, they engaged one American woman to write a book "Mother India." "Mother India." "Mother India." So the... In... That "Mother India" is simply full of stories where there are so defects. Suppose a priest in the temple is attached with some woman, like that, so many stories like... So one Punjabi, what is his name? Gobha, (?) Gobha. He counteracted that book—"Uncle Sam." (laughter) So these things are going on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And what is austerity? It is very simple thing. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty āśu. If you continue devotional service to Lord Vasudeva, Kṛṣṇa, then automatically the effect of these austerities will become, janayaty āśu, very soon. Vairāgyam. Austerities means detachment to the material world. That is the result of austerity. So śāstra says janayaty āśu vairāgyam. Simply by executing devotional service to Vasudeva, that vairāgya, detachment, very soon arises. Come. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is very good engagement.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It says in the Bhagavad-gītā that persons who at least attempt to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, they again, at least they get human form of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So what is the position of tyāgīs, persons who are simply trying to renounce material life? Do they... Are they considered on the devotional path, or do they have to fall down into lower species of life?
Prabhupāda: No.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is that considered attempting to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, simply to give up, say, material sense enjoyment?
Prabhupāda: No, these tyāgīs, Māyāvādīs, by their process they may attempt paraṁ padam, means Brahman effulgence. But Brahman effulgence being simply, what is called, eternity. But a living entity does not want simply eternal life, but he wants ānanda. Now, suppose if you are given, if God says that "You live here in this field eternally," would you like that?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: No.
Yaśodānandana: Their objection is to "he."
Prabhupāda: But why you are "he"?
Yaśodānandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.
Prabhupāda: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.
Yaśodānandana: Maybe because I am person...
Prabhupāda: That is not maybe. Maybe... As soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right?
Yaśodānandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.
Justin Murphy: These we must try to protect and preserve for two reasons. Our ideas are that we must, we have to be, to an extent, slaves to the twentieth-century civilization, or what we call the nowhere civilization. In other words, our function stops or is frustrated if a government won't give us money to continue our work and our research. So in other words, we have to direct a large part of our research towards people and making life and opportunities better for people. We can't, however, do that—we can't improve agricultural production, we can't improve forests, we can't improve recreational opportunities in the forest lands around cities—if we don't consider sympathetically, thoughtfully, and scientifically the natural resources of Australia. So it's interesting that you mentioned to begin with in the evolution, say of the evolutionary cycle in Australia, you mentioned the aborigines. The aborigines were in fact far better at maintaining and conserving the central Australian landscapes, the central Australian arid regions, than any Australian since European colonization.
The aborigines lived in almost perfect harmony with their environment for thirty thousand years, thirty to forty thousand recorded years—that's how far our research can take us back—whereas in a little over a hundred years, European man in Australia has done in places irreparable damage to not only the vegetation but also the soils of arid Australia. It's damage that will probably never, ever be repaired because the environment is so delicate in central Australia that as soon as our cloven-footed animals, our sheep and our cattle, for example, are brought into the arid areas, they eat, they trample, they remove vegetation. This loosens the soil; the soil is very thin. It's very unfertile, and it blows away. And virtually all you have left is rock. And nothing grows, of course, on rock. That's an over-simplification and perhaps an over-dramatization, but this has happened in Australia. It didn't happen when the aborigines lived here, undisturbed by us. It has happened since European man has come.
In Perth, in this city, around this city, since Europeans have come, we have removed forests, we've cut down trees, we've tilled the soil, we have changed the natural order of things, we have increased the amount of water from rain that flows through the soil. It's getting more and more salty. We are affecting our coastal wetlands, as we call them, the lagoons and the lakes and the marshes, so that they are becoming both more salty and more clogged with silt and soil and debris. Water birds can, in some areas, no longer live there. Fish are dying. A lot of migratory fish and crabs, for example, are no longer migrating to their traditional breeding grounds. So our work, our approach, is—and I have to stress that it is scientific and therefore it's long-term, and we're really a very young group here in western Australia—but our approach is to attempt first to understand what has happened, to understand what is happening, and then slowly to be able to suggest ways of improving or halting what is happening which is bad and putting forward ideas for what might happen which is good, which is good both for people...
We're stuck with that, we're stuck with our urban... Whether we like it or not, we're stuck with our urban civilization. We're stuck with our Western way of doing things, unfortunately. But, that being the case, we...
Prabhupāda: Did the aborigines...? They were growing their food, the aborigines?
Justin Murphy: Oh, no, no, no, no. The aborigines grew nothing really. They were nomadic. They were mostly meat-eaters and insect-eaters. There are... For example, one of the staples of the aborigines was a very thick and very fat grub called a witchity grub, which lived in the roots of certain low bushes, and they used to tear the bush over and these fat grubs would appear which would be eaten live and raw.
Prabhupāda: Without cooking.
Prabhupāda: Without cooking.
Justin Murphy: No cooking. No cooking. Immediately, wiggling. The fresher the better. They used to eat small furry animals, bandicoots, wombats. There were no rabbits, of course, in those days. Rabbit has been a disaster introduced by man, by European man. But they used to occasionally pound the grass seeds from a few species of arid sand grasses and make a kind of an unleavened bread, which they would then bake. But generally the aborigines were nomadic, they were shifting, and they didn't cultivate. They didn't till the soil ever. But we must, whilst attempting to provide for the inevitable Australian people and the growth of population, we must also try to do that within the confines and the dictates of nature and the natural resources which we have. Australia is very rich in a lot of natural resources; it's very, very poor in others. It is quite poor in water, and, of course, water is absolutely basic to the growth process. Australia has abundant sunlight, solar energy, which is the basis of photosynthesis.
Prabhupāda: Vegetable.
Justin Murphy: And vegetable growth. But we lack water. And in Perth we are doing an excellent job at ruining our water. It's criminal in many respects, what is going on. And this is what we must do. So we are trying to strike a balance between science for and research for the benefit of people. But it must be also for the benefit of the environment, because...
Prabhupāda: You find out this verse. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Annād. A-n-n-a-d. Annād.
Prabhupāda: That was his only demonic proposal, that "We make staircase." He said that "Why you are undergoing so much austerities to go to the heavenly planets? I shall make a staircase. You will go."
Amogha: How high did he make it?
Prabhupāda: He never attempted. He simply bluffed, that's all. So demons' proposals are like that. Therefore it is a common say in, hearsay in the, in India, that rāvaṇe sarge sini(?): "The proposal is just like Rāvaṇa proposed to make a staircase to the heavenly planets." He was also very much advanced materially, very prosperous materially. Gold was very common thing. He brought gold from Brazil through the subway. His brother was king there, in southern America.
Amogha: Kumbhakarṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, Mahīrāvaṇa. Mahī, mahī means the earth. He used to go through the subway, through the earth. So other side there was another Rāvaṇa. That is Mahīrāvaṇa.
Devotee (1): He built the subway?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The subway is still there, Brazil. Somebody said?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they found some parts of a subway there, some big tunnel. But they don't know where it goes, though.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is from Ceylon to Brazil, subway. And Rāvaṇa's civilization, Rāmacandra's fight, some millions of years ago. That is in the Tretā-yuga. The duration of Kali-yuga is about, say, four lakhs of years. And Dvāpara-yuga, eight lakhs of years. And then Tretā-yuga, twelve lakhs of years.
Amogha: That's what we are trying to do. In a few years we will find out.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They might have gone to some hellish planet, where there is only sand, only, and very hot, and the culprit is pushed through that deserted place to the Yamarāja. And before going to Yamarāja he has to suffer so much. There are places, copperlike, you see. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So hot, and the criminal has to go on that copper land. There are mentioned for many millions of miles simply copper, and one has to pass through that to Yamarāja. So, they might have gone to some such place, not to the moon planet, who is the source of vegetation even throughout the whole universe—and in his own planet there is no vegetation. Now I am sure they have not gone to moon planet. How they will go? It is beyond the sun. I was protesting that they have not gone; now I am convinced that they have not gone. The Russian scientists and the American scientists joined on the platform, "Don't expose me, I don't expose you." (laughter) (Bengali) "You have to do your business and same I have to do my business. Let us support one another." In all other case, they are inimical, and the scientific field they are friends. That means that if a scientist, another scientist, opposes me, then my attempt will be futile, so let us don't do it.
Amogha: On Christmas day.
Prabhupāda: Motor buses were floating. Is that law of gravity? Air, different adjustment of air. If Kṛṣṇa desires, simply by air this whole city will be devastated. The other day we saw so many trees fell from (New?) Kurukṣetra. All trees and houses will be smashed within half an hour if some hurricane is sent. Poking nose in the affairs of God. They'll simply try to prove that there is no God. This is their attempt. And they say "nature." What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, machine. The authority is God, Kṛṣṇa. So I have given the right name, fourth-class men, not even third class. All fourth class. Śūdra. Śūdra and less than śūdra. This is the whole pack of population at the present moment. First-class man, his definition is there: śama, dama, tapa, śaucam, titikṣā, ārjavam, jñāna, vijñāna, āstikyam. That is first-class. They are snatching a motorcar mechanic as first class. Because he knows some mechanical arrangement how to do it, he is first class. Such things are being done by the demons. Machine or wonderful building, these are done by the demons. Now to begin? Time will come(?)?
Śrutakīrti: You wanted to shave your head? Yeah?
Prabhupāda: Ah, there is time?
Śrutakīrti: Yeah, we are leaving at twelve-thirty. So we have two hours. That is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: Hm. The world is full of rascals and fourth-class men. That is our verdict, Kṛṣṇa's verdict. A human being does not know God, he's no better than dog. He is dog. Who knows God? There are so many scientists, philosophers, now everywhere. And they are discussing on sex philosophy, homosex philosophy, Darwin's theory. All third class, fourth class, they are controlling. Now they are gradually coming to chaotic condition, and their problems, engage so many big, big officials how to solve. Oh, why you created problem, first of all? You third-class, fourth-class men, you have created problem, and now we are trying to make solution—another problem. And because you are the same fourth-class men, how you can make a solution? You have created the problems. The man who creates problems, can he make solution? So you are the same fourth-class man, how you can make a solution? Bring first-class man. But there are no first-class men. All rogues and rascals. Things are becoming bad to worse, and still they'll claim, "We are first class."
Prabhupāda: ...Mahārāja and his father, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. They wanted to preach. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu also wanted to preach. (break) ...book to many Western universities. MacGill University. He had a very strong desire to preach. Then he attempted little. Then his son, my Guru Mahārāja, he was entrusted. He also attempted. He sent his disciple to London. And he wanted me also. Therefore at the last stage of my life, at the age of seventy years (chuckles) I made an attempt that... Our predecessors, they wanted, and they wanted me also to do that. So my other Godbrothers they could not do very well. So let me try.
Dr. Copeland: And what is your relationship with the Ba'hai faith?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dr. Copeland: The Ba'hai faith that also preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: They preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness? I don't think.
Dr. Copeland: You don't know of the Ba'hais? B-'-h-a-i?
Prabhupāda: I have heard the name, but they are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Dr. Copeland: (laughs) Not your kind, but they worship Kṛṣṇa. Not the same kind of consciousness, but they also worship Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: I do not know.
Madhudviṣa: The demons are trying to go to the heavenly planets by building their skyscrapers higher and higher.
Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa's, Rāvaṇa's staircase for going to the heaven. He promised that "Oh, what is the use of austerity? I shall make a staircase directly. You can go." As their... It is the same, Rāvaṇa's staircase and the modern attempt to go to the moon planet, the same thing. They will never be able to go, but imagining that "We shall do it." The same process, Rāvaṇa's process. For how many years they are going? Since 1950?
Devotee: To the moon expedition?
Prabhupāda: Yes, moon expedition.
Devotee: Maybe 1955.
Madhudviṣa: 1955.
Devotee: The first moon landing was 1961.
Prabhupāda: That is beginning. First of all they sent dog. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: But if people would have been God conscious, they would have excused, "Oh, they have come for God's service. All right, you can take." Therefore the first business is to make people God conscious. Then everything is adjusted. Yasyāsti bhaktiḥ, there is a verse in Bhāgavata,
- yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā
- sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ
- harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā
- manorathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ
- (SB 5.18.12)
The meaning is that "Anyone who is God conscious, a devotee, he has got all the good qualities". What we consider as good qualities, he has got. And similarly, one who is not a devotee of God, he has no good qualities because he will hover on the mental platform. There are different platform: bodily concept of life, general, "I am this body. Therefore my business is to satisfy the senses." This is bodily concept of life. And others, they are thinking, "I am not this body. I am mind." So they are going on mental speculation like philosophers, thoughtful men.
And above that, there is intelligent class of men, practicing some yoga. And spiritual platform means above that. First bodily concept, gross, then mental, then intellectual, then spiritual. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is on the spiritual platform, above body, mind and intelligence. But actually, we should come to that platform. Because we are spirit soul, we are neither this body nor this mind nor this intelligence. So one who is on the platform of spiritual consciousness, they have got everything, intelligence, proper use of mind, proper use of the body. Just like a millionaire, he has got all the lower grade possession. Ten rupees or hundred rupees or hundred pounds—he has got all, everything. Similarly, if we try to make an attempt to bring people on the platform of God consciousness, then he is possessing all other qualities: how to take care of the body, how to use the mind, how to use intelligence, everything. But it is not possible that everyone should become God conscious.
rabhupāda: ...bahir-artha-māninaḥ. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go?
Amogha: They want to be well.
Prabhupāda: But if you will be finished, then why you are attempting so much? Sit down now. Why you are making advancement of civilization?
Australian devotee 6: For their children, they say.
Prabhupāda: If you advance in civilization or do not advance in civilization, you will die. That is sure. Then why do you labor so much? Huh? The animals, they do not labor so much. They live peacefully on the condition of the nature. Why do you labor so much? If the result is the same—the animal will die and you will die—then why you are laboring so much for nothing? That means they have no common sense even. Therefore they are rascals. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "If you think there was no life before this body and if you think that there will be no life after this body, then why you are anxious for the body of your brothers and sisters?" So all these philosophies have been discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. After all, the conclusion is that they are all rascals. That's all. We have to take them as such rascals. After death everything is finished—that a child knows—but why you are making so permanent building? Piling, (imitates pile driver sound) "Donkhs!
Prabhupāda: Because Indian people, being subjugated for at least one thousand years, they have lost their original culture. And, being poverty-stricken, they are simply after money, by hook and crook. So in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that bhogaiśvarya-prasaktānāṁ tayā apahṛta-cetasām (BG 2.44). Persons who have lost their consciousness on account of being too much attached to material enjoyment, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So I thought that America, they have enjoyed enough of this material happiness, money and women, and they are now becoming disappointed. So they are at least on the platform of renunciation. They don't want any more like their fathers and grandfathers. Of course, they are not guided. Therefore I preferred to go there to guide them. So almost fifty percent of my devotees are, they are collected from these disappointed persons, young men. They are going astray. So they appreciate that I have saved them. Therefore they are after me, this younger generation, and they are helping me in broadcasting this Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
So I think my attempt was successful.
Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā... samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible.
Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception... Just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you "... If I say, "I don't like you"... Naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality. That requires education. So...
Yogi Bhajan: All right, come and educate.
Prabhupāda: (Chuckling) But that education is there, the beginning, in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Yogi Bhajan: It is very kind of you. But if you carry this message to New Mexico, to all those guys, (laughing) it will be a great joy.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yogi Bhajan: I am also carrying the message of those limited ones who want to share the unlimited ones. And that's what the whole attempt was, to provide a platform where limited, unlimited...
Prabhupāda: No.... First of all, just like you are leader, similarly, all the leaders must accept.
Yogi Bhajan: Yes, Swami Dhirendra...
Prabhupāda: Then the followers will accept.
Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacary has flown all the way from India to just participate in that. Other people, Ācārya...
Prabhupāda: Who is, who is that? Swami Dhirendra...?
Bali-mardana: President?
Yogi Bhajan: Prime minister's guru.
Bali-mardana: What is his name?
Yogi Bhajan: Swami Dhirendra Brahmacary. He has flown...
Prabhupāda: But prime minister guru, does he believe in Bhagavad-gītā?
Siddha-svarūpa: Actually the Chinese are attempting artificially to keep the people...
Prabhupāda: But they do not know that where is the defect. Defect is that everyone has got some attraction. Somebody has attraction for his personal self. Somebody has got attraction for wife, children, family, then attraction for society. In this way they talk of many things. They have come to attraction of humanity. They are all nonsense. The attraction is for sense gratification under different names only. My attraction for family is not for their benefit. By my sense gratification the family members help me, therefore I am attracted. The wife gives me pleasure; therefore I like wife. The wife also likes husband because husband gives pleasure. Otherwise, there is no attraction. As soon as the husband and wife fails to give pleasure, divorce. The son goes out. The daughter goes out. So everyone is prone to some attraction. So if you keep them in the material attraction, then you can change the name; the disease will continue. That is the difficulty. You can change the name from this ism to that ism but every ism is material. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti. That is also... "The mūḍhā, these rascal, they do not know mām, Me, Kṛṣṇa," param avyayam, "inexhaustible pleasure." Kṛṣṇa is the reservoir of all pleasure. In the Vṛndāvana there is sporting. There is association with young girls, father, mother. Everything is exactly like this. And in any circumstance they are happy. It is not that in Vṛndāvana Kṛṣṇa is a sannyāsī.
Dr. Gerson: NBC did an unfair story on Gurukula. They cheated. And I would like to undo that. I would like to go and show that the school is very good.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is very kind of you, but there have been so many attempts to cut down this movement, but they are cheated. They could not do so.
Dr. Gerson: May I try to help?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is your real business. In India also, they are still making so much propaganda. They are making propaganda that "These American devotees, they are CIA." (laughter) This propaganda is very strong in India, making the people against these American boys who are preaching. So this is going on. They financed one film, "Hare Krishna." That is spite against us. But still, those who are sincere, they are praising, "Yes, this is a real."
Brahmānanda: In India the effect of that film is just the opposite that everyone is chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now appreciate. Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. (break) We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupāda: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. (break) ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmānanda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Prabhupāda: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmānanda: Has a house.
Jayatīrtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupāda: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. (break) What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmānanda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmānanda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupāda: What is that man craft?
Harikeśa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupāda: That they did in respect of moon also.
Prabhupāda: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayādvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. (break)
Prabhupāda: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupāda: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmānanda: It's a big business.
Prabhupāda: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Jayatīrtha: So it's a different thing now.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot stop war between bad elements. Make them good. Then you can avoid. You cannot stop fighting between the dogs. That is not possible. If you try to make the dogs stop fighting, it is not possible. Is it possible? Then it is useless attempt. You keep the human being as dogs, and you want stop fighting. That is not possible, impractical.
Peter: Must a person believe in Kṛṣṇa in order to chant?
Prabhupāda: You must believe somebody. You believe in God or not?
Peter: Do I believe in God?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Peter: Um...
Prabhupāda: Doubtful. (laughter)
Peter: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
Prabhupāda: So first of all you have to believe yourself that you are part and parcel of God.
Peter: I don't believe that what I experience is necessarily different from what most of the people...
Prabhupāda: What do you believe? Let me know what you believe. That also you do not know?
Peter: Yeah, I don't know what I believe. That's the problem. OK, true. I grew up without a consciousness of God or without even...
Prabhupāda: Without God.
Prabhupāda: ...to Venus? They say they are going to Venus?
Brahmānanda: The Russians have sent a spaceship to Venus.
Revatīnandana: It's unmanned. There are no men in it. They are going to Venus but there is no man in the ship.
Prabhupāda: Now, why they are going to Venus? They have failed to achieve anything by going to the moon. Now why another attempt, to go to the Venus?
Dr. Judah: Well, the usual explanation that they have given, as I recall, is that these explorations give man more of a knowledge about how the world was created, our universe was created.
Prabhupāda: That is another speculation.
Dr. Judah: Yes.
Bahulāśva: Why do they have to go to Venus, though, to figure that out? They have a planet here they can't get any information out of.
Prabhupāda: Why they are anxious to know how the world was created? It is already created. What is your credit? (break) ...and simply bluffing people, that's all. (break) It is already there. The nice creation is already there.
Dr. Judah: Accept it as it is.
Dharmādhyakṣa: And be joyful. But they want to try to imitate the creation.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. "Where angels dare not, foolish rush in. Where angels dare not, fools rush in." So big, big, giant, saintly persons, they simply admired, and they are going to understand it. What is that? And they can create, like that? They cannot create even an ant, a small ant, and they are going to create, imitate the creation of God. Just see. And we have to believe such fools. (laughter) This is our misfortune.
Devotee (1): But they do say, and we are following and you don't know what we're doing, Satsvarūpa, because you haven't known me for two years. So you really don't know what I'm doing. You're not around.
Satsvarūpa: But our society is going nicely. It's not...
Devotee (2): In some respects it's going fine. But these are problems which can be dealt with amongst us, and they are affecting all of us. And for some people these are problems though they may not be for you. I think, as far as I know, your conduct has always been very honorable. But for some people who it's not and where these misconceptions apply, it's a real problem and we're trying to deal with it because it affects our lives.
Upendra: The strength to deal with those problems comes from following sādhanācāra.
Devotee (2): We are also attempting to follow sādhanācāra. And if we are imperfect...
Prabhupāda: Anyway, if he has said so, that is wrong.
Devotee (1): But is that then applying to everyone. Does someone who is in the adminis... (end)
Prabhupāda: And to serve under somebody, that is śūdra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And śūdra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the śūdras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.
Mayor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But I have no money. So if the authorities give me a place, and for feeding them necessary foodstuff, then I am sure it will be successful. These two things I want. I don't want any charges for my mantra, no. My mantra is open, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and there is no charge for it. And I have no necessity. I require a little clothing and two capatis. That's all. Anyone can bring. I thought Chicago is one of the important cities of your country. And when I first came, I saw this is vacant. So I thought if this house can be utilized in the beginning and we invite anyone, especially young men, come here, live with us at least for one week and associate with this chanting, dancing, and we give nice prasādam. There is no difficulty. We can attempt. And if the authorities give us this facility at least for one year then we shall talk of permanent. They can see the result.
Viṣṇujana: According to national statistics, as far as curing drug problems and crime problems, it's seen that social organizations that are supported by the town councils, etc. are usually about 3% effective in cases cured of either drug addiction or crime. But as far as religious organizations are concerned, some of them are 70, 80% effective in cases that have been attempted cure. So it's, as far as percentage cured, the process of introducing God consciousness is much more effective than some social reform or rehabilitation work or something like that.
Prabhupāda: No, social reform will automatically come. The first-class reform, the brāhmaṇas, if their advice is taken, then the other classes the kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdras, they become automatically.
Mayor: We're aware that a religious approach is more successful and our mental health society here is funding the Reverend Perry who is a black ordained, I think, a Baptist protestant minister, formerly a drug addict. And he's been working out with, especially with the blacks who have drug addiction and he achieves much more success than other agencies.
Prabhupāda: Which process? Drug addiction has been helped by somebody?
Brahmānanda: No, the mayor's saying that the administration is not against supporting religious organizations.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lt. Mozee: Oh, no.
Prabhupāda: Then? Everyone is a criminal, either he is a poor man or rich man. So we should not make such distinction, that only it is meant for the poor man.
Lt. Mozee: No, the distinction I was attempting to draw was would there be more benefit, would there be more of an influence, or would there be more of a strengthening if it were in an area of affluence rather than an area of poverty or vice versa?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, that's... Our treatment is for the diseased person. So diseased person does not make any distinction of poor man and rich man. Rich man is also diseased, and poor man is also diseased, and everyone should be admitted in the hospital. So hospital should be in such a place where the poor man and rich man, both of them can come because all of them are diseased. So when one comes to the hospital there is no such thing as a poor man's hospital or rich man's. Hospital is hospital. And everyone being diseased, everyone should take advantage. But the difficulty is, as we are quoting the passage, that rich man, he thinks that he is not diseased. Although he is diseased number one, but he thinks that he is not diseased. That is the difficulty of the rich man. But we are thinking everyone is diseased. And you know better than me being police. There are criminality amongst rich men and poor men alike.
Prabhupāda: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense. Therefore śāstra says, āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samanyam etat paśubhir narāṇām: "This business of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs.
Sandy Nixon: Can the Vedas be taken symbolically as well as literally?
Prabhupāda: As it is. We are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, not symbolically.
Sandy Nixon: Are you attempting to revive... I feel like asking this question two different ways. First I'll ask it one way which is, in a sense, incorrect. Maybe I'll just ask it this way and just get your answer. Are you attempting to revive in the West the awareness... Are you attempting to revive the ancient Indian caste system in the West?
Prabhupāda: Where do you find we are reviving caste system? Where do you find? First of all let me know. Why you are asking this question? If you have seen that we are trying to introduce the Indian caste system, then you say. But if there is no such attempt, why you are asking this question?
Sandy Nixon: Well, because a lot of people are interested, and...
Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.
Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.
Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?
Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.
Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?
Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma...
Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?
Prof. Hopkins: So one who... You would see his effort to transcend, I suppose you would call it...
Prabhupāda: That effort was for life after life. Then when his effort will be successful he will realize Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (BG 7.19).
Prof. Hopkins: So his problem was the effort to attempt to do this on his own without going through...
Prabhupāda: The guru.
Prof. Hopkins: The guru.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it will take time. Just like a man searching after the right path but he does not care to ask anybody, he is loitering in the forest.
Prof. Hopkins: You... I'm sure you're familiar with his essays on the Gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Hopkins: Which I think are generally quite good, his essays on the Gītā themselves. Are there places there that you would strongly disagree with in his, what he says?
Prabhupāda: No, we disagree with the whole system because he is trying to understand the Absolute Truth by his own effort. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: We are speaking of religion. Religion means to know God and to love God. So does the Christian-Jewish religious system deny this? Then where is the difference? If Christian religion is meant for understanding God and try to love Him, the same thing we are preaching. The same thing, Jewish religion may be preaching. And where is that religion who denies the supremacy of God? What is that religion? Is there any religion in the world who denies the supremacy of God? We say, "Religion means the laws given by God." This is our definition. Therefore we must know what is God, what are His orders, and we must carry out the order and what is the end of carrying out such orders. If we try to understand these three or four things, then we are religious. If there is no attempt to understand what is God and what is His order and how we are acting, what is the goal of our life, then where is religion? That is not religion. Religion means these four principles: What is God, what we are, what is our relationship with God, and act accordingly and achieve the goal of life. This is religion. So any religious system which does not consider all these things, that is not religion. That has been explained in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, kaitavaḥ. Kaitavaḥ means cheating. Religion means these things, wherever these things are there, that is religion, these enquiries. This is the subject matter of Vedānta-sūtra, where it is said, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now the human life is meant for enquiring about the Supreme." So that is religion.
Prabhupāda: This is not education. Vidyā dadhāti namratā. Educated means he is humble, gentle, sober, full of knowledge, practical application in life of knowledge, tolerant, control of the mind, control of the senses. That is education. What is this education?
Reporter (2): Are you attempting to form a college?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my next attempt, that we shall educate according to classification. First-class, second-class, third-class, up to fourth-class. And then fifth-class, sixth-class, that is automatically there. So first-class men, there must be, at least in the society, an ideal class of men, and that is one who is trained up for controlling the mind, controlling the senses, very clean, truthful, tolerant, simplicity, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. This is first-class man.
Reporter (2): Will this college be quite different from our conventional college which has a great emphasis on athletics, I mean, football teams and...
Prabhupāda: Well, an education... A highly educated man does not require athletics. He requires good brain. Just like high-court judge, he requires a good brain, not a big gigantic body.
Prabhupāda: Is that all right?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Jayatīrtha: What is the position of a soul that's in a sacred tree like a fig tree?
Prabhupāda: There are also sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa is working throughout the universe. (break) ...was attempt to manufacture gold by combination of metals. They are not doing that?
Jayatīrtha: No, I don't think they're doing that.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Jayatīrtha: They think that that's foolishness. They think that it's a legendary thing.
Sudāmā: Alchemy is not looked upon as very intelligent.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Scientific.
Sudāmā: They've replaced it now with science, higher truth of science.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not legend. If you can mix copper, tin and mercury—this is stated in the śāstra—you can make gold. It is not legend. The particular metals to be combined, that is stated: copper, tin and mercury. You mix, and there will be gold.
Prabhupāda: No, kamam vavarsa parjanyaḥ (SB 1.10.4).
Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. Purport. "The basic principle of economic development is centered about land and cows. The necessity of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly King Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the cause of all varieties of production on the land. Regulated rains not only help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should men not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes. Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Mahārāja Parīkṣit, grandson of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The King at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or an executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality and fraternity and nonviolence? Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira's is by far superior to so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less than animal man. We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuff both for animals and men, by the grace of the father almighty, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The human being is the elder brother of all living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than the animals for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the almighty father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification. This is but the life of dogs and hogs."
Prabhupāda: Now men are killing their own children. Is it not? Even cats and dogs do not do this. Although they give birth at a time half a dozen children, still they are not anxious to kill them. (pause) So I am coming in one minute. Please sit down. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Why you are there?
Mr. Surface: I must leave. Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him some prasāda.
Professor: In religious studies.
Prabhupāda: What is your definition of religion?
Professor: My definition of religion? I think religion has mostly to do with the kinds of questions people ask. Religion is the attempt to answer questions about "Who am I? and "Who is God?" and "How do I relate to God?"
Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is the meaning. So do the people in general know what is God?
Professor: People in general... Today most people have an idea, but they don't all agree. So you can't say that they all have an idea of God. But they all believe they do.
Prabhupāda: No, believing is different thing. You can believe anything. But God is one. So God is there, you believe or not believe. Just like the president of your state is there. One may say, "I don't believe in him." That does not mean there is no president. Similarly, a foolish man can say that there is no God, but that does not mean there is no God. There is God. Now who is that God?
Professor: Who is God?
Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, everyone knows there is a president. And one can enquire, "Who is now president?" Is it not natural?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is truth. Without Kṛṣṇa, everything is untruth. Truth is one. Just like zero is zero. And it is added with one, then it is ten. It is truth. So zero is zero always. Hundred million times zero—it is zero. But when there is one, immediately value increases. So without Kṛṣṇa, all this material advancement, they are all zeros. But if you bring Kṛṣṇa, then it... that increases value-ten, hundred, thousand, tens of thousands, like that, million, billions. Because the one is there. So bring Kṛṣṇa, and then everything will be value. Otherwise, all zero. You may be proud of so-called material advancement. It is zero, because it will not save you, because tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) you have to change your body. So you have earned so much millions and billions of money. That's all right. But you have to go empty-handed. The money will remain here. You cannot take that money within the tomb. That is not possible. Then it is zero. You are going empty-handed. You came empty-handed and going empty-handed. You came with zero and you are going with zero. So whatever you have earned, that is zero. But if you have attempted to serve Kṛṣṇa with all these zeros, then you have taken some value. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Oh, he has done so much for Me. Let him come." Otherwise zero. What is the value of your skyscraper building and billions of dollars in the bank? You cannot take it with you. And this is called māyā. You cannot take it with you; still, you are struggling hard day and night. This is called māyā. Not a single farthing you will be able to take with you, and still, you are simply happy. They are called "asses." Just like asses, they have so much big burden, but nothing of the burden belongs to him. Mūḍha. They are called mūḍha, asses. For nothing happiness, which he will never be able to take with him. What do they say? They are doing it for next generation.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: So, your instructions in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam can stop their lust? It can stop... By hearing from Vedic authorities, their lust can be dissolved? Or do they have to just simply be frustrated in their attempts to enjoy sense gratification?
Prabhupāda: They are being frustrated. Who is successful in the material world? Have you got any instance that he is successful? (pause) Then?
Vāsughoṣa: In every field someone is miserable. Just in America there was one lady, very famous etiquette expert, Amy Vanderbilt. So she jumped out of her window. She was sixty-nine years old.
Prabhupāda: There are many. I saw in Detroit, I think. The bridge is covered?
Brahmānanda: San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge they have put...
Prabhupāda: Not Golden Gate. That San Diego, I think. We crossed one bridge to go to the...
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes, San Diego also. They have these fences so when people jump off they are caught by the fences. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: And I think in Berkeley? The tower?
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. In the college university they have a big clock tower...
Prabhupāda: These are the signs how they are disappointed. They are always ready to commit suicide. So where is success?
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, scientific reality. Therefore I raised that question. But nobody could reply properly. They thought it a kind of Hindu conception. No. That is not Hindu conception. That is the basic principle of living condition. We are changing body, and there are so many varieties of body. We may enter in any one of them after death. That is the real problem. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27). Nature's work is going on. This body is a machine. This machine, just like a car, has been offered to us by material nature, by the order of God, Kṛṣṇa. And we are moving, transmigration. So the real purpose of life is to stop this migration, transmigration, perpetually from one body to another, one body to another, and revive our original, spiritual position so that we can live eternally, blissful life of knowledge. That is the aim of life. The whole Vedic conception is based on this principle.
Prof. Olivier: How do you...? This...your concept of reincarnation, how do you reconcile reincarnation with this attempt to...
Prabhupāda: So long you'll have desire for material...
Prof. Olivier: This is what is normally in the Hindu religion, you know, which it is not so, of course, in the Christian religion.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of religion. This is the, I mean to say, our position, real position. Religion develops. Religion is a kind of faith. That develops according to time, circumstances, people. But reality is this, that we are spirit soul. We are now conditioned by the laws of material nature, and we are carried away by the laws of material nature and transmigrating from one body to another, sometimes happy, sometimes distressed, or sometimes heavenly planet, sometimes lower planet. This is going on. And human life is meant for stopping this process of transmigration and revive our original consciousness, and go back to home, back to Godhead, and live eternally, blissful life of knowledge. This is the whole scheme of Vedic literature. And Bhagavad-gītā is the synopsis how to attain this life. Therefore, the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā begins to understand the constitutional position of the soul. Then other things. First of all we have to understand what we are, whether I am this body or something else. This is the first understanding. So I was trying to explain this, but that Mr. Chadda, he would bring that "You want to introduce Hindu conception." It is not Hindu conception. It is the scientific conception. I am a child for some time. Then I become a boy for some time. Then I become a young man, some time. Then I become old man. In this way I am changing body. This is not Hindu conception or Vedic conception. This is a fact. But he would not hear that. He would simply say, "You are trying to push Hindu conception of..." And what is this Hindu conception? It is equally applicable to everyone.
Bhargava: I don't know his name. I saw he was an Indian gentleman.
Prof. Olivier: Yes. We want to... I mean, I can do very little at the university. My attempts have been to try and stress that the only...the only permanent element in education is the spiritual, and how to effect this...
Prabhupāda: These are the books. That is a fact. So you saw the Sanskrit professor there?
Devotee: Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: What is his name?
Devotee: He's not a professor. He's a lecturer.
Prof. Olivier: Mr. Mishra?
Devotee: (?)
Prof. Olivier: Mishra.
Devotee: Mishra. He's a lecturer. He has this special class.
Prof. Olivier: That's right, yes. He does Sanskrit for us. He's from Mauritius.
Devotee: And he was interested in getting a whole standing order of books. And I said I could supply the books, but it will be a while before we got every single one from America, including the Bengali books, etc. We have to order them specially because South Africa doesn't have a good communication with America as far as transporting large quantities...
Prabhupāda: No, we shall supply from here. You haven't got to bother.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. We have good stock now. We have in stock over a thousand of all these books.
Devotee: We've sold so many that we have to reorder. It won't be much problem getting by air freight. We just put them on the plane and we get them here quickly.
Prabhupāda: We shall take responsibility for supplying the books from here, in this center.
Prof. Olivier: But now, what must you...what can you do if your, one of the professor who is in charge of Indology, like the one in Moscow, he teaches Indology but he does not believe the basis of what...
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Indian man (3): And in the way of hospitals?
Prabhupāda: Hospitals, there are many, but real hospitals... to cure the material disease, there is no hospital. They are... There are hundreds and thousands of hospitals for curing the disease of the body, but there is no hospital to cure the disease of the soul. That is the defect. So we are opening hospital for curing the disease of the soul. They have no information about the soul throughout the whole world. Even so-called religious organizations, they have no information about the soul. They go to religious ceremonies for material profit. They do not know what is the necessity of the soul and what is the disease of the soul. They do not know. (break) ...nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. What is the goal of life, these people, they do not know, mūḍhas. Mūḍha means rascals, gadha. They do not know what is the goal of life. They take calculation of the duration of life, that fifty, sixty, or hundred years. That's all. Beyond this, after this, they do not know. Yes. That is the defect. (break) Now, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that this temporary attempt to become happy-antavanta phalaṁ teṣām—it will end with the end of the body. But they do not know beyond this. Therefore alpam-medhasām, they are less intelligent. Just like a child playing. He likes to play and does not go to school. So do you think that is all right?
Indian man (3): No.
Prabhupāda: So therefore we are doing like that. We are concerned that "I have got this body. Let me enjoy to the fullest extent and don't mind what I am going to have in future. It doesn't matter."
Prabhupāda: That's it. And these rascals are talking very big, big words. That has to be stopped, that “Don’t talk nonsense and bluff people and take high salary, simply cheating. Don’t cheat any more. Admit that you cannot do anything. You simply bluff. That's all.” That is to be done.
Harikeśa: “Well, with all our research we’re finding cures to so many diseases. With our research…”
Prabhupāda: That, you nonsense, you go on doing, but no disease is stopped. You… Futile attempt.
Harikeśa: "But twenty years ago there was so much smallpox everywhere. But now…"
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. You have stopped smallpox, but you have increased cancer. So what is the use?
Harikeśa: "Now we are finding a cure for that also."
Prabhupāda: That's all. Go on working like ass, (laughs) without any… Even if you have some medicine for disease, you cannot stop disease. You cannot stop death.
Harikeśa: “Well, man's duration of life is getting longer.”
Prabhupāda: Rascal. (laughs)
Harikeśa: Well, now medical science is so advanced that even if you have heart disease they can give you another heart.
Prabhupāda: So does it mean that the situation is changed? No more heart disease or heart is never failure? It will continue? Where is the change. You may be proud with your puffed-up, false knowledge, but where is the change of situation? Futile attempt.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they will say that the duration of life years ago was much shorter than it is now, that now the duration of life is sixty-five or seventy years average.
Prabhupāda: That may be in few cases. Generally the duration of life is reduced. Nobody lives nowadays like his forefather. So where is extension? It is reduced. And what is the extension? In old age the body becomes subjected to so many ailments. What is the use of living with ailments, with toothache and many other things? What is the use of such life? Better die young, in good health, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the use of prolonged life? The prolonged life... The trees are also prolonged life. Does it mean it is happy? They live for five hundred years, five thousand years. Hundred, two hundred years' living for tree is not at all difficult. But they live for thousands of years. So is it very pleasing to live like a tree for many thousands of years? Hm?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Reporter: But what message would you give to people in terms of helping people, perhaps, to live better lives?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if the basic principle is wrong, then all their plans for becoming happy is also wrong. So he does not know what is the important factor. So when he comes to know that he is not this body, he is spirit soul—he studies what is the nature of the spirit soul, what is the necessity of the spirit soul—then he becomes happy. If he is under misconception... Suppose if I take you, Mr. Singer, as the coat, and I take care of the coat and not of you, person, then is that very good proposal? So that is going on. They are taking care of the shirt and coat, not the person who is putting on the shirt and coat. This is the mistake of the modern civilization. And the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is an attempt to correct it, not theoretically, but by scientifically, by philosophically, economically, religiously, everything. Therefore we have got so many books. We are trying to distribute, enlighten people. This is our business. Then people will be happy. Unless one who knows "what I am, and what is my business, what is my aim of life," then how he can be happy? Just like a dog is jumping here and there, here and there, but he does not know what is the aim of life, so if we do not come to the spiritual platform, that we remain animal like cats and dogs, then what is the civilization of cats and dogs? If you keep the dogs as dog and if you ask some of them to come together and make a peace formula, is it possible the dogs will be able to make any peace formula? Because they are dogs, they will go on barking. That's all. So we are attempting so many peace formula, but we are keeping the consciousness on the body, exactly like the dog. And therefore there is no peace. There cannot be any peace. First of all you must come to the real platform, the living force, what is that spirit soul, what is the necessity, what is the aim. That you do not know.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: How can a man's intelligence be rectified? If intelligence is the...
Prabhupāda: This hari-kīrtana, chant. Somehow or other, induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everything all right. By flattering, by soliciting, by giving him prasāda, by elevating him, that "You are the best man in the world"—in this way inducing him, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," then he will be rectified. This is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. There is no other way. He is ruined, and the more the Kali-yuga advances, he becomes more and more ruined. All other attempts will failure. Don't you see in your country the LSD-addicted hippies? Government spends so much money to rectify them-failure. But as soon as they come to our camp, immediately success. How it is possible?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: By this chanting...
Prabhupāda: That is the amazement. That is the amazement of Professor Judah and all others, that "How it is happening? There is something in the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This is good propaganda with the governments also. This is good way to get the governments to support our movement more and more, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: The government never objected to our movement. Never. I never met any objection from government side. Neither even Christian priestly side. I never met any objection. They understand that "He is doing something."
Guest: And bhakti is a devotional surrender.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Spiritual world means there the Supreme Lord is supreme, nobody else. And all others, they are engaged in His service. This is spiritual world. Here, in the material world, everyone is trying to be master. In the spiritual world there is no such attempt. They know the master is only God and all others, they are servants. That is the difference between material and spiritual.
Guest: I think that covers that. Second question. We were talking about that in this documentary, "In Search of Truth." Do you think there is any other way to actually realize God in truth and...
Prabhupāda: God can be realized through bhakti, surrender. Otherwise even it is realized, it is partial, not complete.
Guest: Well, that answers that.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti... Just like I have got some official servant, and I have got very confidential servant. So to my confidential servant everything is disclosed. He knows everything. But official servant, he may not know everything. Therefore bhakti is the confidential part of understanding God. Otherwise they understand vaguely, impartially, not sufficiently. In the Bhagavad-gītā there is a verse, mayy āsakta-manā pārtha yoga yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ, samagram, asaṁśaya samagra mā yath jñās... You can quote it. That is the first śloka of the Seventh Chapter.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...given by God. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanam. You have no intelligence even, so that is given by God. (Hindi) Let them become devotees. Why these old men, they are not coming? They are still after money? Amara ajñaya guru hana tara ei deśa (CC Madhya 7.128), Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. So you have come to this country. Do something good for these Africans. Let them become devotee. Where is that attempt? The white men, they also came to exploit them, and you have also come to exploit them. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "No-para upakara." Upakara kara. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... They are not so advanced; make them advanced. That is real cooperation. (Hindi) (break) Just like every one of them is attached to remain in Africa, continuing to... But they are being forcefully driven away: "Go away." Attachment must be there. The Englishmen, they have got attachment, but they were forcefully driven away. Similarly, this conditioned soul, he has got attachment. And śāstra and śāstra... These people were driven away by śāstra,, by weapon, knife. That is śāstra. And śāstra is the same thing, but it is books. Therefore it is called śāstra. The original word is coming from śās. Sas means ruling, śās-dhātu. Śāstra, śāstra, śāsana, śisya. Śisya. Śisya means voluntarily accepting ruling. That is called śisya. The word is the same, śās. From śās, śisya. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāstra. From śās, śāsana. These are. So sometimes by force, sometimes by voluntarily... So just like guru-śisya. The guru, he gives enlightenment, and śisya voluntarily accepts. That is guru-śisya. Similarly śāstra means weapon: "If you don't follow, then I shall cut your throat." Similarly śāstra. So śāstra says that "Now you must leave your family life." That is called vānaprastha. So that is not being carried out, although the śāstra injunction is there. Brahmacari, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So brahmacārī is the beginning of life, how to become controlled life. Then he is allowed the concession for sense gratification. This is gṛhastha. Then śāstra says, "Now you have done up to fifty years. Now get out." But nobody is following. They are not prepared to get out unless death forces to get out. That Kṛṣṇa does. Mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34). He is not willing. He has got attachment. He doesn't want. Then, at last, Kṛṣṇa comes as death: "Now get out." Kick out. "Oh, I have got so many things. I have got my sons, daughters, and this, that." "Get out. No question." And whatever you have accumulated, that is forfeit. That's all. The same process, just Africa government: "Get out." And what you have attained? All taken away. The same śāstra, śis, śās-dhātu.
Dr. Patel: Because their main hypothesis is... That is near the mind. (?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So evaṁ manasa-gocaraḥ. You cannot have it. śruti-pramāṇam. You have to hear from the authority. Jaya. So if you want to waste your time in that way, you can do that. And next birth, you become a dog. That's all. This human life you waste in this way, dog's obstinacy; Kṛṣṇa will say, "All right, come on. You become a dog." Human life... Even Cānakya Paṇḍita says, a??cyuṣaḥ kṣaṇa eko 'pi na labhyaḥ svarṇa-koṭibhiḥ: "Even one part of your duration of life, one moment, you cannot get it back again in exchange of millions of golden coins." Svarṇa-kotibhiḥ. Sa cet nirarthakam: "If you waste that time unnecessarily, then you do not know what you are losing, even from material point of view." This is Vedic civilization, not to waste a single moment of life for useless attempt. That is Vedic civilization. Every moment should be utilized. Especially for the human being, it's so valuable. And they are finding out sporting, swimming and surfing—simply all programs of wasting time, especially in the Western countries. How much they have invented, I see only and laugh. The elderly men of your age, of course, maybe my age also, they are swimming and surfing. How they have invented means of...
Brahmānanda: Fishing also.
Prabhupāda: Fishing. Yes, all old men, they are sitting hours and hours for capturing one fish. (laughter) Just see their civilization.
Brahmānanda: So there will always be money for purchasing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And because we are doing that, Kṛṣṇa is giving us facility. (break) ...ning how much difficulty we had. We could not purchase that house, number sixty street?
Brahmānanda: Yes. That was a hundred thousand dollars, that house.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not hundred. Sixty. Sixty thousand dollars. Sixty thousand dollars, and still, we could not. Another attempt was made to purchase that bank building. So we had no money, only five thousand, and that was also taken away. (break)
Indian man (1): Do you believe in these (Hindi) and everything?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why not?
Indian man (1): Do you believe?
Prabhupāda: Why not? There are many gṛhastha devotees. Here is gṛhastha devotee.
Indian man (1): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...which you want to set up, they are available, ready-made?
Saurabha: Some of them are ready, but we need about a hundred, so I don't think there will be one hundred ready. But if the order is placed in advance, then they will...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Saurabha: If the order is placed in advance, then they will start making immediately. They can do that very fast.
Prabhupāda: So whatever ready-made we can purchase?
Prabhupāda: Kejiya? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) Yan-maithunādi gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. (break)
Mahāṁsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.
Prabhupāda: So your invested money is realized?
Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.
Prabhupāda: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.
Mahāṁsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.
Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam daily. So they are coming for kīrtana?
Mahāṁsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...
Prabhupāda: Organize.
Harikeśa: Kṛṣṇa is the strongest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the proprietor." But they'll not accept it. Kṛṣṇa says, the real proprietor says, that "I am the bhokta. Sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29)." But they are so rascal that they will deny the existence of Kṛṣṇa or God, or the real proprietor. They claim to be proprietor for a few days, and they, by one slap of Kṛṣṇa's hand, they finished all proprietorship, and they are going, struggling. This ignorance is prevailing all over the world. Does not know who is the proprietor, how I became proprietor, how I shall be enjoying. Nothing. The same thing, the dog philosophy: if the dog secures a morsel of bread, he's thinking, "I am proprietor." Another one snatches: "I am proprietor." This is going on. But the dog has no sense that none of us will be proprietor. So when you know who is the proprietor, then this Īśopaniṣad.... Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). Everything, God's property. You enjoy for livelihood what is given to you. That's all. That is perfect philosophy. "I am the proprietor." That was the system in Vedic civilization. God is proprietor. King is the representative of God. He knows.... He gives you some land, that "You take this land, produce your livelihood, utilizing this land, and whatever you produce, one fourth give me." Not a fixed tax. "If you produce, one fourth is mine. If you don't produce, there is no tax." This was the system. And that includes all tax. No botheration. So people were God-fearing, honest, simple-dealing. So "I have produced a hundred mounds of rice. The king, you can take twenty-five mounds. That is my obligation." And king is also satisfied. By distributing that grain, he maintains the whole government. The real difficulty is all these rascals, they are not sufficiently educated. They are mūḍhas. And they are trying to solve the problems. That is not possible. That is andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They are bound up. They're making adjustment, but.... Just like Gandhi. For making adjustment, all of a sudden a man came, (makes sound like gun) khat. Finished. Kennedy was making some adjustment. Somebody came and killed him. It is like that. What is the value of your adjustments? It will be finished after some days. Therefore the Russians, they support revolution. They said, "It is necessary." They admit the imperfectness. And occasional revolution makes it perfect. This is their idea of perfection. But they do not inquire that "What is that supreme power which makes our ideas of perfection imperfect?" These rascals, they do not never, do not ever inquire, "What is that power which forces to make our attempt frustrated, spoil, and make it imperfect?" What do they say about this?
Haṁsadūta: They never come to this point.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: They never come to this point.
| Page Title: | Attempt (Conversations 1968 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=123, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 123 |