Prabhupāda: So you have to convince people like that, that it is not a sentimental institution. We are teaching the thing which is very absolutely needed for the human society. As soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, his personal questions and problems are solved. And if others adopt the same principle, then social-political questions are also solved. So we have to teach. They will say it is not practical. Why not practical? No, anything is not, not practical. There are so many scientific... You discovered. Just like this tape recorder. This is advantageous to the human society. But it is not practical that everyone will have a nice tape recorder. That is not practical. But when you go to manufacture, say the discoverer, "Oh, that it is not practical; therefore it should not be manufactured." Similarly, Kṛṣṇa consciousness may not be practical for all, but that does not mean it should not be preached. The customer will take. Just like this tape recorder, one has got money, you have purchased, taking advantage. Similarly, there are many pious persons who can take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like you have taken. You are not ordinary common men. There must have been some pious activities in your past lives. Therefore you have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously. Bhagavad-gītā says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. (BG 7.28) A sinful person cannot understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is said, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. One who has completely vanquished all sorts of sinful reactions. Now, the question may be that whether one can finish all sorts of sinful reactions within this material world. No, that is not possible. But it is possible also. What is that? That is also answered in the Bhagavad-gītā that "You give up everything. Surrender unto Me. I shall give you protection from all sinful reactions." So I may be sinful and there are so many reactions awaiting me for giving me trouble, but as soon as Kṛṣṇa takes charge of me, then everything is finished. How it can be finished? Because He is all-powerful, He's the supreme. Just like if the president says... One man is ordered to be hanged. If the president says, "No, he should not be hanged," then immediately all others sanction. Because he's the supreme. Similarly, if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, in spite of a huge stock of sinful reactions awaiting me, simply for the purpose of my surrendering to Kṛṣṇa they're all set aside by Kṛṣṇa. He'll see to it. Simply surrender. And that surrender, as soon as it is done, then the other word says, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ... (BG 7.28). One who has finished all kinds of reactions of sinful activities, janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, persons executing pious activities... And the most pious activity is devotional service. "How is that? There are so many other kinds of activities. What is this? This man has made so much charity, he has made so many hospitals, he has ...(unclear)... in such things. And this man is simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you mean to say he is more pious than that man who has made so much charity?" The śāstra says, "Yes. Yes." Why? That is also explained in the Bhāgavata. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That activity is considered to be the highest pious activity. The Bhāgavata does not say what kind of activity. "That activity which leads one to be a devotee of the Lord." That activity is not limited. Any activity that makes one progressing for realization of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is higher, the highest pious activity. That is the description. Just as military art is not a very pious activity, killing art. But because the killing art exhibited by Arjuna was leading him to this platform of satisfying Kṛṣṇa, so that became the highest pious activity.
Arjuna was... (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: ...from where everything emanates. He is the source of all life. Whatever we see, it is in the Absolute Truth. All these universes, all these planets, all the suns and moons, the sky, and everything, they have come from the original source, the Absolute Truth. Now, in the material world we have got so many contradictions, but that contradiction is there also in the Absolute Truth. Just like fighting. Fighting is not a very good thing, but still, the fighting spirit is there in the Absolute Truth. Otherwise, how fighting can be exhibited? So the theory, nonviolence... Nonviolence is not absolute. Nonviolence and violence, everything is there in the Absolute Truth. But in the Absolute Truth, either nonviolence or violence, they are absolute. Here we have got bad effects of violence, but when violence is performed by the Absolute, it has no bad effect, it has good effect. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is spoken in the battlefield, and Arjuna was denying to fight but Kṛṣṇa was asking him to fight. So the fighting was good because it was the will of the Absolute Personality of Godhead. Therefore at the end of understanding Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna agreed, "Yes, I shall fight." So fighting for the matter of executing the desire of the supreme will is also absolute. It is not different from Absolute Truth. So sometimes it is... Just like we sometimes see mock-fighting, because that fighting spirit is there. The father and son, the little son is fighting with the father. That is not fighting, but the mock fight. But the fighting spirit is there. You cannot deny it. Similarly, the fighting spirit is there. Sometimes that is exhibited by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He wanted to exhibit such fighting spirit, so who will fight with Him? Ordinary living being cannot fight with the Supreme Lord. Therefore some of His devotees, some of His associates, must fight with Him. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that Arjuna was inquiring from Kṛṣṇa that "You say that millions of years before You spoke this Bhagavad-gītā yoga to the sun-god." Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). The Lord said that "Many, many, many, many millions of years before, ago, I explained this science of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god."
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: As far as you require it. You require fooding. Yes, for maintaining your body. Not for satisfying the tongue. "This, I want to eat this, I want to eat that, I want to eat that." No. Eat something. Just maintain your body. That's all. You sleep just to keep yourself fit to work. Not that sleeping for twelve hours, fourteen hours. No. Six, seven, utmost eight. That's all. Then eating, sleeping, defending. That's also required. Defend yourself. Not to encroach upon other's property. Just like Hitler sending soldiers in others' country. Why? You defend your own country. That's all right. You defend your home. That is not prohibited. The śāstra allows it. If somebody comes to encroach upon your property, you kill him immediately. That is said. But not kill unnecessarily. Just like Arjuna was taught, "Kill them. They have insulted your wife, they have encroached upon your property. They must be killed." That is allowed. But you don't be aggressive. So ahāra-nidrā-bhaya, and sex, sex life. Yes. Just get yourself married and have sex life only for children. Not for other purposes. So kāmasya nendriya-prītiḥ. Kāma means we have got some demands of the body. That is called kāma or lust. So that does not mean that we have to gratify the senses. As far as necessary, we shall utilize it. Nendriya-prītiḥ. Then how to live? Now, kāmasya, that satisfaction of the senses should be allowed just to keep myself fit. I must live. Even if I become Kṛṣṇa consciousness, I must work. So that is allowed. But what is my... What is your main business? Jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha kārmabhiḥ. Your only business is to understand what you are, what God is, what is this world, what is your relationship. This is your main business. This is your main business. Not that you earn money and employ it for sense gratification, as it is going on in this materialistic way of life. Nobody is inquisitive to know what he is. How can he? Very big businessman or very rich man or so-called advancement, can you say what you are? What is your duty? Nobody can't. So that is the main business, that jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā nārtho yaś ceha kārmabhiḥ. By your... By the result of your activity... Or your main activity should be inquiring about your spiritual existence. So this should be our inquiry. I think we should stop here. Yes. (break) (devotees offer obeisances) Govinda dāsī? Where is Govinda dāsī? You take these two fruits, offer, cutting, and distribute prasāda.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual master is the representative of God, or Kṛṣṇa. Just like if you work in some office, so there is one head man, representative of the proprietor of the company. You have to work under him. If you satisfy that person who is in charge of that department, that means you are satisfying the proprietor of the company. Is it clear? And he can give you direction how to work nicely because he's experienced. The boss. So spiritual master is external manifestation of God. God is within and without. Within, He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation. So God is helping from within and without. Within, as Paramātmā, and without as spiritual master. Both ways. As soon as you are sincere, then God will send you to somebody who is His bona fide spiritual representative. And if you take help from him, and help within and without... Just like a person going, or a boy going to a school, he's getting training in the school as well as home, both sides. Then his chance is very good. So we have to take both wise: from inside, from outside. You are doing some things in the service of the Lord. How you'll know that you are doing it properly or improperly? This you will know from the spiritual master. If he says, "It is all right," then it is all right. If he says, "It is not good," then it is not good. Just like the same way. The officer in charge, if he is satisfied (with) your work, that means you have satisfied the government or the supreme company, arranger, with whom you have no direct connection. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo **. Therefore it is said that if you satisfy your spiritual master, that means you have satisfied Kṛṣṇa. And yasya prasādād na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. And if you have not satisfied your spiritual master, then you must know that you are, what is called, there is no certainty about your whereabouts, what you are doing. Na gatiḥ kuto 'pi. Therefore, dhyāyan stuvaṁs tasya yaśas tri-sandhyaṁ vande guroḥ śrī-caraṇāravindam. So spiritual master is necessary and his direction is necessary. That is the system of disciple succession. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, Arjuna is surrendering. He was Kṛṣṇa's friend. Why he surrendered himself, "I am your disciple." You see in the Bhagavad-gītā. He had no necessity. He was personal friend, talking, sitting, eating together. Still, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as spiritual master.
Prabhupāda: Something you forget, but I tell you repeatedly, you hear; you remember. Is it not? Here something you have forgotten completely, and I remind you constantly. Then don't you remember?
Devotee (1): Yes. But I don't understand how is it that we forgot it... How can we remember...
Prabhupāda: Forgot, you forgot. That is your nature. You forget so many things. You cannot remember what you were doing exactly at this time yesterday. Can you remember immediately? Forgetfulness is our nature. We are very minute; therefore our..., we are subjected to the quality of forgetfulness. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was asking Kṛṣṇa that "How I can believe that you told this philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā to Vivasvān?" He said that "In... I, first of all, I told to Vivasvān." So in reply to that question, Kṛṣṇa said that "Both you and I had many, many births before, but you have forgotten; I remember." That is the difference between the Supreme Lord and ourself. He does not forget. He remembers everything, past, present, future, all, but we forget. That is the difference between God and living entity. We are subjected to forgetfulness. So we forget; again, if it is reminded, we remind. That is our nature. So at the present moment we are forgetful of our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. And then, by good association, by constant chanting, hearing, remembering, we again revoke our old consciousness. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So forgetfulness is not wonderful. It is natural. We forget. But if we keep constant touch, we may not forget. Therefore this association of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, devotees, and constant repetition of the chanting, scripture, that will keep us intact without forgetting. Satataṁ kirtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ (BG 9.14). We have to continue this service constantly. Then we shall not forget. Forgetfulness is not wonderful. That is our nature. That is our nature. And that is the difference between ourself and God. God does not forget. We forget. We are claiming, some of us, foolishly claiming, that "I am God, but I forget." God does not forget.
Prabhupāda: These Kṛṣṇa conscious men are very nice. They do not smoke. They do not drink. They have no illicit sex life. They do not kill for satisfy the tongue. They are satisfied with natural food. And their behavior is very good." Who will deny it? And the other asset they cannot estimate, that how much he is in contact with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. That, they have no estimating power, but at least they will appreciate these external features. One clergyman, when I was going to Hawaii, he was talking with me. He said, "Swamiji, I have seen your disciples have a very nice face, glowing face." And "Yes, certainly. They must be. They are making spiritual progress." So it is not difficult. It is very easy. If you take to this, you have everything sublime and your life becomes sublime. You haven't got to give up anything. The material needs are there, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. That is not disallowed, but adjusted for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We cannot allow eating, mating, like animals, cats and dogs. No. That is not possible. You'll eat, you'll mate, but just like human being, civilized man. Then what is the distinction between animal and man if we behave like animals? Kṛṣṇa, God, is pure. So if you keep yourself in impure condition of life, then how you can make progress towards purity, highest perfection, purity? Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). In the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa that "You are the purest of all." If you are going to reach the purest of all, how you can remain impure? This tapasya... This voluntary restraint means tapasya. Tapasya, there is a Sanskrit word, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily restraining or accepting some suffering condition. That is not actually suffering condition. Just like a patient.
Prabhupāda: And agree with you. Our surrender means we agree with Kṛṣṇa in everything, although we are individual. If Kṛṣṇa says you have to die, we die; out of love. But we are individual, I can deny "Why shall I die?" That reality I have got. Just like Arjuna was asked, "Now I have taught you Bhagavad-gītā, now whatever you like you do," yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "as you like." He doesn't touch the individuality. But Arjuna voluntarily surrendered: "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "yes, I shall do whatever You ask." He changed his decision. He decided not to fight, but he agreed, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This agreement, this is oneness. Not oneness does not mean mix up homogeneously. No, He keeps his individuality. Kṛṣṇa keeps his individuality, yathecchasi tathā kuru: "Now whatever you like you do." He says, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "I shall do what you say." So this is oneness. Not to lose individuality. Because we cannot lose our individuality. We are individually made originally. Kṛṣṇa is individual, we are individual, everyone is individual. Merging means merging in that total agreement. That is liberation. Total agreement without any disagreement. And that is the perfection: to keep individuality and agree with God in total agreement. That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of disagreement with Kṛṣṇa, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure is Kṛṣṇa. So one who is trained fully to agree with Kṛṣṇa, they are accepted as associates. Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pradadyate: (BG 7.19) after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante: after many, many births. How he surrenders? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) oh! Kṛṣṇa is everything. The Vedānta-sūtra gives hint, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), what is Brahmā, what is supreme? Athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahmān, the Supreme.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now you take... Style may be different. That's all right. Besides that, to maintain your body and soul together, you require eating, you require sleeping, you require mating, you require defense. We don't say that you don't do this. Kṛṣṇa was... Arjuna was defending. Rather, he wanted to be nonviolent. "Oh, what is the use of fighting?" Kṛṣṇa said, "No. It is required. You should." So where is the difference? There is no difference. Simply we are adjusting things so that you may become happy. Any intelligent man will take it. We are not prohibiting, but we are adjusting. So there is no difficulty. Simply intelligent persons like you should try to understand and take it and administer because your country is wanting this.
Allen Ginsberg: But there is a limit to how much the pronunciation of Kṛṣṇa will spread I think. There's a limit.
Prabhupāda: Hm? No limit. You can pronounce in any way Kṛṣṇa. K-r-i-s-h-n-a. That's all. Any way. Niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ.
Allen Ginsberg: The limit is people's prejudice...
Prabhupāda: So we don't say that why you are chanting Kṛṣṇa like this? We never say that. We simply say, please try to chant Kṛṣṇa.
Allen Ginsberg: Or let us say there would be a limit until the word Kṛṣṇa became as common in English as any other English word.
Prabhupāda: It is already in the dictionary. It is already in the dictionary. All dictionaries you will find Kṛṣṇa. What do you want more?
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: We've created a big thing and then make so many solutions.
Prabhupāda: Just like we just take example from your country. You are constructing so many highways, freeways. Still, there is problem. Still, even in the highways, sometimes blocked. Aiye. (Hindi) Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18). (Hindi) We do not dissuade persons to stop work. No. That is not our... You do your work, but be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's it. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. Kṛṣṇa never stopped him from his occupation, but he was taught Kṛṣṇa conscious even in the battlefield. (Hindi—break) You want to see? Yes. Where is that book?
Haṁsadūta: Here, Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Kiñcid adhīta. (break) ...a thousand pages of this size. This is four hundred pages, but that Gītā will be thousand pages. But we shall use very thin paper. Yes. It is available after some time.
Guest (2): Where?
Prabhupāda: In our center in India.
Guest (2): Is this same?
Prabhupāda: No, it is Nectar of Devotion. Where are our other books?
Haṁsadūta: In my suitcase. Shall I bring them?
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Dr. Weir: And intuition as well?
Prabhupāda: Saṅkalpa, vikalpa. This is, in Sanskrit it is called saṅkalpa, vikalpa or accepting and rejecting. That is mind's function. I think something and again I reject it.
Dr. Weir: Well, you also react too.
Prabhupāda: You can say what you like but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system. He said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). My mind is very, I mean to say, agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as controlling the wind. Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba..., vāyor iva suduṣkaram. And it is very difficult to (indistinct) high wind and if you want to control it, as it is impossible. Similarly I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control them is very difficult for me. So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible. We have to accept something for the time being, then again reject it. Therefore all mental speculators differ. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na... A philosopher is not philosopher until he differs from other philosophers. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na... Unless you place a different thesis he will not be accepted as a good philosopher.
Dr. Weir: There it differs from science. Because if science is actually correct it can only be one.
Prabhupāda: But philosophy is taken as the science of sciences.
Dr. Weir: Theology used to be that. Yes.
Prabhupāda: That guru cannot be. That guru's designation is there in the Vedas, that tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam (SB 11.3.21). Anyone who is inquisitive for understanding... Suppose if you are inquisitive to understand really what is Lalaji, then you must approach to a person who knows Lalaji. Then you will understand Lalaji. And if you approach somebody who does not know Lalaji, then he may give you misinformation. So guru is that who knows Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise you will not be able to understand what is Kṛṣṇa. That Kṛṣṇa also very easily you can find out. Take what Kṛṣṇa says. Kṛṣṇa teaches Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna directly. Now if you believe Arjuna, then you understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa taught Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, and why Arjuna was taught, that is also said by Kṛṣṇa, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "Because you are My devotee." Kṛṣṇa did not go to teach Bhagavad-gītā to a Vedantist. He went to teach to Arjuna. He was a family man, he was a soldier, but why he was selected? He, Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si. So if you approach a Kṛṣṇa bhakta like Arjuna, then you will understand Kṛṣṇa; otherwise you will not. They are understanding Kṛṣṇa through me, not before me. But if they or some of them, "something," some of them "something," they may be very big scholar, but they did not know what is Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: So first there should be direct...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter: ...apprehension by...
Prabhupāda: Yes. One must be brahma-niṣṭham, śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means must. You must find out a guru who knows Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise there is no possibility of knowing Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: So, sir, for we poor mortals it is very difficult to immediately, you see, to...
Prabhupāda: It is not a subject matter to understand immediately.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa fought. Kṛṣṇa...
Reporter: In the Kṛṣṇa conscious scheme there is also active struggle and activity?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Certainly. Niyataṁ kuru karma tvaṁ karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ. Instead of sitting idle, if you act badly, that is good.
Reporter: Ah. There you are, sir.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's advice. Kṛṣṇa does not say sit idly. Neither Arjuna was advised like that. Neither... Arjuna wanted to be nonviolent, sit idly. Kṛṣṇa never did so. Kṛṣṇa said, "Oh, you fight. You are kṣatriya. It is your duty." And in order to raise him to that fighting position, this position, He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. So don't think that Kṛṣṇa bhaktas are idle, sitting only. No. That is mistaken idea. Kṛṣṇa bhakta can do anything under the direction of Kṛṣṇa.
Reporter: You are not escapists?
Prabhupāda: No.
Reporter: Maharaja, please go on here helping us. You know, we are (indistinct). (laughter) (Hindi) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...me that "Your Vaiṣṇavism has killed India." And why? "No, Vaiṣṇava means inactive. They say simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and do nothing." Then "You have not seen a Vaiṣṇava," I told him.
Reporter: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: I told him that he has not seen a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.
Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.
Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ(?).
Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ(?) platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,
- māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa
- bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate
- sa guṇān samatītya etān
- brahma-bhūyāya kalpate
- (BG 14.26)
So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible. Someone is in the modes of goodness, someone is in the modes of passion, someone is in the modes of ignorance, and someone is in the modes of mixture. That is the natural division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaisya, śūdra. Those who are purely in goodness, they are brāhmaṇa. Next to that, passion, kṣatriya. And next to that, vaiśya, mixture. And next to that, śūdra. And next to that, caṇḍāla.
Dr. Singh: But is it not necessary today for each person to have..., for example, he's got to have his..., he's got to have knowledge of the dharma. He's got to have the capacity to act...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, when everything was done by Him and Arjuna declined to fight, therefore Kṛṣṇa called him foolish, it is foolishness. Therefore He taught him Bhagavad-gītā. And when he came to his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he took up the opportunity. He said plainly that "Arjuna, you fight or don't fight, these people are not going back home. That is already settled up." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin. So this plan was made by Kṛṣṇa, and there was no other alternative.
Dr. Singh: Arjuna was very lucky to have Kṛṣṇa there to tell him what the plan was.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Singh: Arjuna.
Prabhupāda: So everyone can become happy like Arjuna if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, that's all. I was studying your book.
Dr. Singh: My book? Where did you see my book, Swamiji?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Dr. Singh: This one? Where on earth did you get this? This is just one little lecture.
Śyāmasundara: You secretary gave it to us.
Dr. Singh: Really? In fact, we must get Swamiji to sign your books. I have got all your books.
Prabhupāda: So some of the points... What was the points?
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: This attachment increases. The material attachment. The material attachment means "I am this body, and because I have got this body in a particular place, that is my country." And that is going on. "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am German," "I am this," "I am that," this bodily... "This is my country. I shall sacrifice everything for my country, society." So in this way the illusion becomes increased. So under this illusion, when he dies he gets another body. That may be a superior body or inferior body according to his karma. So if he gets superior body, then that is also entanglement. Even if he goes to the heavenly planet, that is entanglement. And if he becomes cats and dogs, then his life's lost. A tree. There is every chance. So this science is not known in the world, that how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another and how he's being entrapped in different types of body. This science is unknown. Therefore when Arjuna was speaking from the bodily concept of life that "If I kill my brother, if I kill my grandfather, the other side..." So he was simply thinking on the basis of bodily concept of life. But when it was not solved he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, accepted Him as spiritual master. And when Kṛṣṇa became his spiritual master He chastised him in the beginning. Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase (BG 2.11), that "You are talking like learned man, but you are a fool number one because you are talking on the bodily concept of life." So this sex life increases the bodily concept of life. Therefore the whole process is to reduce it to nil.
Bob: To reduce it over the stages of your life?
Prabhupāda: That's very natural. It is costly here. But these children and their parents also very much interested. So I think you should have a nice institution here to train the children in this country. And after their education, they may take to any line of livelihood. That doesn't matter. But the foundation... Just like in our Vedic system, first of all brahmacārī. That brahmacārī system is very nice. Even Kṛṣṇa, God Himself, He has nothing to learn. He is abhijñā. In the Vedas He is described as abhijñā: He knows everything. But just to teach us, He also became a brahmacārī in the Gurukula. Lord Rāmacandra, He also accepted a guru, Vasiṣṭha. So that is our Vedic system. Anybody may be anything, but the process is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn the value of life, spiritual value of life, one must go to a guru. Tad vijñānārtham. In order to understand the spiritual value of life one must go to a guru. Gurum evābhigacchet. What is that guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: "He is well learned in Vedic literature," and brahma-niṣṭham, "and firm faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead." These are the two qualifications of guru. He must know all the Vedic conclusions, śrotriyam, not that he has to read, but he must hear from the authoritative sources. Just like Arjuna is hearing from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the most authoritative personality. So similarly, everyone has to hear either from Kṛṣṇa or from His bona fide representative. That is śrotriyam. And the result will be that after becoming student of such bona fide guru, one will be firmly fixed up in God consciousness. That is the result, firmly fixed up. Now, these boys from foreign countries, according to our geographical arrangement, they are foreigners. But we don't see anything foreign. We see every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa and everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So we have no such distinction. But still, from materialistic point of view, these boys and girls, they, three or four years ago they did not know what is this word Kṛṣṇa. But now they are so perfectly devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and nobody can deviate them. If somebody says that "You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and take..."
Prabhupāda: Well, when you take part in politics you have to fight. (laughter) Yes.
Guest (2): I don't mean that. I mean muṣṭi fighting.
Prabhupāda: Well, if required, muṣṭi fight will be there. Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. He was Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Guest (2): Yes. But what I'm basically asking is what are these kṣatriyas going to fight with?
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya fought... Why don't you take the case of Arjuna? He was a kṣatriya. He fought for Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): Yes, but in those days, you see, there is some kind of a clear cut...
Prabhupāda: Those days or in these days, the same principles are there. Kṣatriyas should fight for Kṛṣṇa. That is his perfection of life.
Guest (2): Okay. Then the question is whom shall we fight now? Okay, supposing we are all...
Prabhupāda: Those who are not Kṛṣṇa conscious. Yes.
Guest (2): Fight in a real..., sword, fight with swords?
Prabhupāda: Anything which can be engaged in the service of the Lord should not be given up. This is our philosophy. Should not be given up. We do not say, "Oh, money is material. I do not touch. My hand becomes turned up." No. We don't say all these nonsense philosophy. (laughs) We know that money, lakṣmī, is Kṛṣṇa's property, so it should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. Why money should not be touched? Money is Kṛṣṇa's. It must be touched and used for Kṛṣṇa. We don't try to (indistinct) that pseudo renouncement. What I have got that I shall renouncement? Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Our renouncement means we renounce our personal sense gratification, that's all. That is renouncement. Materialism means personal sense gratification, and spiritual life means no personal sense gratification, all Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That's all. The same teaching by Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna was thinking in terms of personal sense gratification: "I shall not fight. It is not good to kill my kinsmen, my brother." That was personal sense gratification. From ordinary point of view people will say, "How Kṛṣṇa is..., Arjuna is nice, that he's giving up his claim, and nonviolent." But this philosophy Kṛṣṇa immediately kicked out. Kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam. "Oh, why you are talking nonsense like this?" That was His answer. (laughs) Next He says, aśocyān anvaśocas tvam prajñā-vādāṁś ca (BG 2.11), "You are talking just like a very learned man, but this kind of lamentation is not done by any learned. That means you are fool number one." (laughter) So after understanding Bhagavad-gītā he agreed to fight. "Yes. I shall fight." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now people will say, "Oh, fighting, killing is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Yes, if Kṛṣṇa wants it.
Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is
- ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā
- varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ
- svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya
- saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam
- (SB 1.2.13)
You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession. Just like Arjuna. He was a soldier. He knew how to fight. So by his profession he satisfied Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that there should be fight between the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas for right cause. And Kṛṣṇa came-paritrāṇāya sādhunaṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtam (BG 4.8). He had two business: to give protection to the devotees and to kill the demons. So by Kṛṣṇa's will sometimes all the demons, they come together and fight with one another and they are killed. So battle of Kurukṣetra was such a plan to bring all the demons together and engage them in fighting and kill one another. Just like in our school days, unruly boys, one boy will be asked to catch the other boy by the ear and the same boy will be asked to catch this boy by the ear and they are pulling each other. Competition of pulling the ears. So Arjuna was fighter and he helped Kṛṣṇa in this fighting activities and thus he became a great devotee. Kṛṣṇa certified, bhakto 'si priyo 'si: (BG 4.3) "You are My dear, very dear friend and devotee." So it is not that one becomes a devotee simply by renouncing the world and coloring the dress. But in any dress, in any capacity, one can satisfy Kṛṣṇa if His cause is served. If you apply your engineering talent in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: Śaraṇaṁ vraja—you just surrender. Whatever you say...
Guest (2): In daily life, I mean, like our practical life, how śaraṇāgati could be...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, śaraṇāgati. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was hesitating to fight but when he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa he fought.
Guest (2): He was lucky. Lord Kṛṣṇa was right there with him.
Prabhupāda: So Lord Kṛṣṇa's instruction is there. That is Lord Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Lord Kṛṣṇa and His instruction. He is absolute. Just like these boys. They are serving Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa is not present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present but you do not know how He is present. Lord Kṛṣṇa is present by His name, Hare Kṛṣṇa. This Kṛṣṇa and the person Kṛṣṇa is not different. That you do not know. You are thinking Kṛṣṇa is gone, but Kṛṣṇa is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute. Kṛṣṇa is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is always present. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti (Bs. 5.38). Those who are saintly person, they are seeing twenty-four hours, every minute, Kṛṣṇa. Hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. How? Premāñjana-cchurita. When there is love of Kṛṣṇa. Just like ordinarily, if you love somebody, you will find him everywhere. So you have to develop your love for Kṛṣṇa; then Kṛṣṇa will be seen. Svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Just like sun. You cannot see sun at night, but when sun becomes revealed before you you can see sun and yourself and the whole world. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa will reveal, being pleased with your service and love, you will see Kṛṣṇa, you will see yourself, you will see the whole world. So simply you have to... Just like one man is suffering from cataract. So by surgical operation make the eyes free from the cataract disease—he will see everything. Similarly, the cataract of your present eyes, material eyes, can be, I mean to say, relieved by Kṛṣṇa prema. Then you will see Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, premā pum-artho mahān. If anything has to be achieved within this world, that is Kṛṣṇa prema. That we should engage our life, how to achieve Kṛṣṇa prema. But we are not interested in Kṛṣṇa prema. So that is illusion. Human life is meant for achieving that stage, Kṛṣṇa prema, love of Kṛṣṇa. Then life is successful.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee (2): So one doesn't have to give up his...
Prabhupāda: No. Arjuna was a soldier, he was a fighter. The battlefield was there, the war was there, everything was there. He did not... He took to Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not mean he gave up the field and went away. He remained there, but simply the consciousness was changed. He was not willing to fight on his own account. He changed his opinion, "Yes, now I shall fight. By Your grace, my all doubts are now gone." This is required, this is perfection. And there's the picture how Kṛṣṇa is guiding Arjuna. When the ranks are formed.
Devotees and David Wynne: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "Just here. Just here."
Devotee (3): This picture is in George's album.
David Wynne: Yeah, yeah. When I was young my mother died. I was very unhappy, and I read the..., a bit where Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna that "That which is real always exists, and that which isn't real never existed at all," and then I stopped being unhappy. Because this book is..., it tells you everything. (end)
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata there is that Kṛṣṇa took Arjuna, His friend, penetrating the layers to the spiritual world. He, He took him. You have read that in the Kṛṣṇa Book? There is... You have read?
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He could take. So Arjuna was fortunate to go in this body, to go to the spiritual world and see it and come back again.
David Lawrence: One other thing that interested me was the idea that Arjuna was in some way ...
Prabhupāda: Friend.
David Lawrence: ...deliberately, if you like, deliberately misguided, planned almost to be misguided in the Bhagavad-gītā. How, how is this work, like...?
Prabhupāda: If he does not be... He was purposefully misguided so that he could put question like a misguided man...
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...and the right answer may come from Kṛṣṇa. It is for our benefit. He's not misguided.
David Lawrence: No.
Prabhupāda: But he played the part of misguided.
David Lawrence: Yes. What we would say and...
Reporter: Bhakti is the quality...
Prabhupāda: Yes, quality of karma. Just like Arjuna, Arjuna was fighting. So he was giving the certificate-bhakto 'si. Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So everything is karma, whatever you do. It is activity. But we have to see the quality of that activity. What is the quality of it. Yes, how you can live without being active? You are living being. That's not possible. Simply we have to see the quality of our activity. That makes one karma-yogī, jñāna-yogī, dhyāna-yogī, bhakti-yogī. Everywhere there is karma. Without karma there is nothing.
Reporter: Hm. Can I ask you another...
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is called karma-miśra-bhakti. It is not unalloyed bhakti.
Reporter: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Unalloyed bhakti, there is no karma.
Reporter: There's no karma.
Prabhupāda: There's no karma. That is very high state. But originally...
Reporter: Akarma, then it comes akarma.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). They get relief from material conception of life so much. But that is not full understanding of the Absolute Truth. Therefore they're third class, or in the third grade. The second grade, yogis. They realize Paramātmā, Viṣṇu, within the heart. But the first class are the bhaktas. They talk, personally, just like Arjuna is talking. Arjuna is directly talking with Kṛṣṇa. This is the result of bhakti.
Reporter: Hm. You feel the presence.
Prabhupāda: Not feel. Actually talk, just like we are talking. Actually talking.
Reporter: Yeah. You think Mirabhai was a bhakta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was devotee..., she was a devotee.
Reporter: Yes. She had this quality of presence.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Reporter: Yes. Direct dialogue.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, how she could tell the king that, "No, you are not husband; I have got already my husband, Giridhārī."
Reporter: Hm. Yes. And the king sent the poison. Ah? And she drank it.
Prabhupāda: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna. He was a kṣatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Kṛṣṇa. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction. So when we act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gītā and he agreed to act for Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction, then he became perfect. So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it. But we say, purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible.
Popworth: It's possible to what?
Prabhupāda: Purify.
Popworth: Purify the pollution.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Popworth: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nirbandhaḥ kṛṣṇa-sambandhe yuktaṁ vairāgyam ucyate. So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga—in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is recognized: bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go, we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it.
Popworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it?
Prabhupāda: The means is that... Our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana, chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we... We can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By, but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motor car factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord." What their, what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say.
Schumacher: I don't see the point.
Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection.
Prabhupāda: In whichever way. The real direction is that he may come back to home, back to Godhead after giving up this body.
Yogeśvara: Is that buddhi, that intelligence manifested in some way, in his service, or in his thinking?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Because the process is devotion, bhakti. Bhakti means not idle. Activities. Bhakti is not idle gossip. It is something, activity. Therefore karmīs sometimes misunderstand that they are working like us. So where is the... what does it mean, bhakti? Just like Arjuna is fighting. But ordinary man will see that he's a soldier, he's fighting. What is this bhakti? But Kṛṣṇa certifies: "Yes, you are My devotee." By fighting, he's devotee. Because he's fighting for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is bhakti. Similarly, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, whatever you do, that is bhakti. Karmīs cannot see. Karmīs see... (break) ...tiki, laukikī, vaidikī. Laukikī means material activities. And vaidikī means according to Vedic instruction. Whatever you do, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, then it is bhakti.
Yogeśvara: Laukikī and vaidi...?
Prabhupāda: Laukikī. Laukikī means ordinary, common activities. And vaidikī means Vedic. Just like a man is doing business as motorcars. So he has to do business as other motor car dealers do. So this is laukikī. It is not vaidikī. In vaidika instruction, there is no such thing, that "You do motor business like this." Therefore it is laukikī. So either laukikī or vaidikī, if it is done for Kṛṣṇa, it is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa also says: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi kuruṣva tad mad... (BG 9.27). Yat karoṣi means whatever you do,... "Whatever" means the activity must be laukikī or vaidikī. "Whatever." There is no restriction, that only vaidikī. No. Even laukikī. Whatever you do. Find out this verse: yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi tapasyasi yat.
Prabhupāda: Where is food? Where is sex? Where is nice apartment? Where is defense? This is their inquiry. In the animal life, there is no possibility of inquiring about the Absolute Truth. Everyone is working. They are also jijñāsu. "Where is money? Where is money?" That is also inquiry. So athāto brahma jijñāsā means... (Aside) You can come this side. Brahma-jijñāsā means this human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute Truth, brahma-jijñāsā. This is human life. Unless one is jijñāsu, just like Sanātana Gosvāmī went to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and he inquired... His first inquiry was, "What I am?" His first inquiry was. Ke āmi, kene āmāya jāre tāpa-traya? He said, "grāmya-vyavahāre paṇḍita, tāi satya māni." He was a brāhmaṇa. So brāhmaṇas are addressed as "paṇḍitjī." He was paṇḍita. He was very learned scholar in Sanskrit and Parsee, Urdu. But he admitted his fault, that "Everyone calls me as paṇḍitjī, but I am such a paṇḍita that I do not know what I am. This is my 'paṇḍitjī.' Therefore I have come to inquire from You what I am." That is brahma-jijñāsā. Nobody knows in this material world what he is. Everyone is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am woman," "I am man." This is their... is their... They do not know. Brahma-jijñāsā. Brahma-jijñāsā means first to know one's self, self-realization, "what I am." And in the Bhagavad-gītā the first reply is given there. This brahma-jijñāsā. Because Arjuna was puzzled. He was thinking that "My kinsmen, my grandfather, my brothers, they are this skin, this body." So he was thinking, "If I kill my grandfather, my brother on the other side, what is the use of this fight? I do not like." But he was thinking in bodily concept of life. This is the position of everyone.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, yes. Because Viṣṇu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaiṣṇava. When he begged, humble, "Mahārāja Ambarīṣa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Viṣṇu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Kṛṣṇa said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gītā, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gītā. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Prabhupāda: You are still pious. Otherwise, how you have taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? You are still pious, but you are misguided. Your, your nation is very good. I like the American nation. Simply little reformation required. Now just, for example, this "In God we trust." This is very nice example. Now, they do not know what is God, how to trust. That is, that has to be done. That has to be learned.
Prajāpati: Trust means to depend completely upon God?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Just like Arjuna. While Arjuna was fighting the battle, he completely depended on Kṛṣṇa. But he was not idle. Completely, to depend completely on God does not mean idleness. Arjuna is the example. Kṛṣṇa never advised Arjuna that "You are My friend. You are My devotee, completely dependent upon Me. So you can sit down." Never said like that. Similarly, we should remain always completely dependent upon God. That does not mean we shall be lazy and idle and gossiping. We must fully utilize the intelligence which God has given us, but at the same time, we must completely depend on God. This is called "In God we trust."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is called?
Prabhupāda: "We trust in God." I am speaking that American currency notes bears the slogan, "In God we trust."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prajāpati: These leaders, they must be above suspicion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." If the leaders, the priests and the executive heads are all rascal rogues, thieves, and within suspicion, then how there can be, I mean to say, peace in the world? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement,... War was declared against Arjuna because he's, he was sinful. Therefore Kṛṣṇa declared war, "You must kill them. You must kill them, Arjuna." Arjuna was declined, "Oh, let them go. They are my brothers." "No, you must kill them. Don't talk nonsense." That is Kṛṣṇa's idea. That is Bhagavad-gītā. The whole Bhagavad-gītā was spoken just to induce Arjuna to kill the godless, the sinful. That is Bhagavad-gītā.
Prajāpati: Actually, it's very good for them to be killed by a devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a murderer is to be killed. Then his sins out of this murdering will be counteracted. If he lives, then he has to suffer so many tribulations. Better let him be killed. Then everything's finished. Life for life. And if there are good leaders, then they will see that the cheating scientists, they're spoiling state money. They'll be stopped in their nefarious activities. They could not become successful in the moon expedition. Now they have made another plan. Venus... What is? Venus expedition?
Karandhara: Mars, Jupiter.
Hṛdayānanda: Mars.
Prabhupāda: Mars. You see? But the rascal government does not... You could not become successful about the moon expedition. Why you are asking money again?
Prabhupāda: No, that, that, that is a example, that without Kṛṣṇa's help, everything is useless. Otherwise, how Kṛṣṇa's wife can be stolen away by others, the plan was different. But the outward show is that without Kṛṣṇa's mercy, nothing can be successful. Even you have got the same bow, same arrows, same man. But Kṛṣṇa... We must depend... That is trust. We have to depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. At the same time, we have to work. That is required. It may be Arjuna was proud that "I am Arjuna. I am taking them. Who can touch them?" That proudness. You see? And might be. It is quite natural.
Prajāpati: So we must also be very much on guard for this pride.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, you should not be falsely proud. The whole material world is falsely proud. Their whole program is to defy God. And our program is to declare war against these rascals. Everyone is trying to defy God. What do you think, scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But their duty should have been, scientist's duty should have been that "God has created so wonderful things. So glorify God." That should have been the scientist's duty, "How nicely He has made!" That is scientist's duty, everyone's duty.
Prajāpati: In the early days of science, about three, four hundred years ago, Śrīla Prabhupāda, many of the early scientists were persecuted by the church for their discoveries. So since that time, the scientists have declared war on religion, and they have been doing their best to try to disprove all religious things.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So in this way he decided, or he made a plan, not to kill. From superficial, material point of view, he was very nice gentleman. But Kṛṣṇa actually chastised, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam, aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś... (BG 2.11). "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are fool number one." This is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. And then at last He said that "The most confidential part of knowledge I am telling you," sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e... (BG 18.66). "What I say, you do. That means I am asking you to kill, to do that." So he said, kariṣye vacanam, "Yes." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "I do not like to do it, but Kṛṣṇa wants me to do, all right." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is very difficult. (laughing) I do not like to do, but Kṛṣṇa likes to do, I have to do it. This decision is very good. A Kṛṣṇa conscious person, a devotee, is prepared to do anything nonsense for Kṛṣṇa, even in the estimation of ordinary person. People ask me that "You are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness and he is, say, encouraging war," because they have got experience of the last two wars in Western country. So when Kṛṣṇa encouraging the war, they do not take it very nicely. They say, "What kind of God He is?" because they have suffered in the war, and then we are presenting a God who is encouraging war. So there was one lawyer, you know, Goldsmith. He helped me, incorporated this...
Devotee: In New York.
Prabhupāda: New York, yes. He was very good friend. So he was asking that "How it is good, Swamiji, that Kṛṣṇa is encouraging war, fight?" Although Arjuna was making own plan not to fight, Kṛṣṇa took the trouble for instructing him Gītā and then inducing to change his plan: "Go on, fight!" (end)
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā he said "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes." Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be.
Śyāmasundara: Sometimes people ask what is, what is God's ultimate goal? What is, why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations...
Prabhupāda: Hiralal.
Guest: No, no, no, no, no. Not that Guṇḍā (?). That is different. (Hindi)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but Prabhupāda was speaking of that one.
Bhava-bhūti: It was Gandhi who said that Arjuna was the soul, that it is all allegory, too. He also interpreted Gītā like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he interpreted like that.
Bhava-bhūti: So same Māyāvādī concept.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is also Radhakrishnan who said that battlefield of Kurukṣetra is just a battle of soul and something...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśomatīnandana: The five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses, and the... Five Pāṇḍavas are the five senses actually. There is nothing like Mahābhārata war.
Bhava-bhūti: All allegory they want to dismiss it as.
Yaśomatīnandana: They think that this is all idols.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So then you should take your shoe and hit them in the face and say, "This is also allegory of how the material world slaps one." Actually...
Yaśomatīnandana: He says that Vyāsadeva is an imaginary character.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Duty. Dharma means duty.
Dr. Patel: "You give up all other actions and do actions for Me."
Prabhupāda: Dharma does not mean so-called some religious fanaticism. Dharma means occupational duty. Just like you are medical man. You have practiced medical dharma. Medical dharma.
Dr. Patel: So I went yesterday early, after quarreling. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. No, that's all right. One must... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. His dharma was to fight.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Fighter... I am wrongly placed in the medical profession. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No. Dharma means one's sva-kar... Just like varṇāśrama-dharma.
Dr. Patel: That is the real dharma.
Prabhupāda: Yes. According to varṇa and āśrama. That is called varṇāśrama-dharma.
Dr. Patel: The greatest gift to the humanity is varṇāśrama-dharma by the ancient culture of India.
Prabhupāda: No, it is given by God.
Dr. Patel: Whatever it is... But I mean, that is the greatest gift.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because if there is no other alternative, what can I do? In the beginning I had no disciples. So I was cooking myself. So one gentleman, he... Later on, he became my disciple. He gave me some place. I was cooking. And in the refrigerator, I saw there was meat. (laughs) So I asked: "What is this?" He said, "It is for cats. I don't take meat." "All right. (laughter) I'll do (?)." So of course, I stayed there for three, four days. And if I cry, "Oh, I have violated my rules and regulations..." Rules and regulations can be violated when there is urgent necessity of service, not whimsically or for one's sense gratification. And that is, of course, in our present..., with the permission of the spiritual master, not one should think, "Oh, I have become so much great devotee, I can violate all the rules and regulations." No, you cannot. If there is need of violating rules and regulations, you must take permission. Now we have no temple. Under the circumstances, we are doing that. So you construct the temple as soon as possible so that people may not criticize you. (break) ...for all gṛhastha devotees, you should begin preaching amongst the gṛhasthas. It is not forbidden for the gṛhasthas to preach. Because preaching is required everywhere. Arjuna was gṛhastha. So yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā sei guru haya (CC Madhya 8.128). One must know the science of Kṛṣṇa. Then you can become preacher.
Gupta: Maybe a friend or not.
Prabhupāda: This is philosophy. Not that "Because I am friend, I will do, and you will sleep and get dysentery." No. You have to work. Everything is already arranged, but you must work. That is wanted. Otherwise, why Arjuna was induced to fight. Kṛṣṇa has already arranged. And Arjuna also: "Yes." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). "Whatever you say..." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. (break) ...politician, Balavanta? He's not here. So let him preach that "We shall, if you take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there will be no unemployment." He can at least give this manifesto to the..., "There will be no more unemployment." People will be very nice, very glad to hear. Now this machine, this machine nonsense means unemployment. One machine will work for hundred men. So hundred men becomes unemployed, and one technician, he gets all the salaries. To work on the computer, com...
Devotee: Computer, yes.
Prabhupāda: Machine. And he's very expert. He'll take three thousand dollars. And others will be unemployed. This is going on. And they are thinking: "Advancement of civilization." Advancement of civilization means "Exploit others and you become happy." This is advancement of civilization. "Others may die for such, out of starvation, and one man takes all the money and spends it for wine and women and motor car." That's all. This is advancement of civilization. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is Vedic civilization. "Let everyone be happy." That is Vedic civilization. And the demonic civilization, they're: "Let everyone suffer; I become happy. That's all." And Vaiṣṇava is thinking, "For my salvation it is already guaranteed." But he is thinking, "How these poor people will be saved?" Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Prahlāda Mahārāja. This is Vaiṣṇava's position.
Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Definitely. (break) ...not independently. (break)
Guest (5): ...why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is "Thou shalt not kill." They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, "You kill like this." But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill"? That means that society was accustomed to kill. (break) Yes, that (indistinct) circumstance.
Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...lence is violence. But Kṛṣṇa has got two business: paritrāṇāya sādhūnām vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). So those who are duṣkṛtā, there is necessity of violence. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...surgical operation. Yes. When the...
Guest (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, "No, no, no, I have taken to non-violence. I cannot touch with knife," that is foolishness. (break) ...you, one must know. That, you take instruction from Kṛṣṇa; then you'll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used.
Dr. Patel: And that is necessity... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the first qualification is anasūyave.
Dr. Patel: Anasūyave, one who is not cajoling against God.
Prabhupāda: No. One who is not envious. A person generally... All conditioned souls, they are envious of God, envious. "Why He should be God? I am God. I am God." So Arjuna is not like that person. Therefore he is speaking to Arjuna. He is devotee. In the Fourth Chapter also, He said bhakto 'si priyo 'si (BG 4.3). Therefore Kṛṣṇa does not expose Himself unless one is devotee. This is first qualification. So to understand Bhagavad-gītā one must be a devotee. The so-called jñānī, yogis, they cannot understand. It is not possible, because they are trying to become God. Although it is simply dream, they can never become, but they are envious, that "Why Kṛṣṇa should be God? I have got so many gods." Anasūyave.
Dr. Patel: Rāja-vidya rāja-guhyaṁ pavitram idam uttamam pratyakṣa.
Prabhupāda: Avagamam.
Dr. Patel: Avagamaṁ dharmyaṁ su-sukhaṁ kartum avyayam (BG 9.2).
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the bhakti-yoga... This is bhakti-yoga. Therefore it is rāja-vidya; means all kinds of learning, it is the king of...
Dr. Patel: King of all.
Prabhupāda: So rāja-vidya and rāja-guhyam, most confident, very secret. It is not... And pavitram, uttamam.
Dr. Patel: Pratyakṣa avagamam.
Prabhupāda: Now people may say that "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, so he is eulogizing Kṛṣṇa like anything." Therefore he is giving evidence that āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarva: "It is not my sentiment that I am accepting you as such and such. But..." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. (break) He is giving evidence. This is required. This is required. If you say something, it must be supported by authorities. Not that my whimsically I say something like daridra nārāyaṇa.
Dr. Patel: Again you say, daridra-nārāyaṇa.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Unauthorized statement. This will not be accepted. So āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve.
Dr. Patel:
- āhus tvām ṛṣayaḥ sarve
- devarṣir nāradas tathā
- asito devalo vyāsaḥ
- svayaṁ caiva bravīṣi me
Prabhupāda: Vyāsa. Ultimately Vyāsa.
Dr. Patel: "Even You say so." Svayam eva.
Prabhupāda: No, why trouble? Kṛṣṇa knows everything.
Dr. Patel: For himself. Arjuna is creating trouble for himself.
Prabhupāda: No, he is creating trouble for himself because the rascals will represent that "I am incarnation of God." Therefore Arjuna is asking him, "Now show me your virāṭ-rūpa." So these rascals, bewildered by these so-called gods, they should ask, "Show me your virāṭ-rūpa. Then I shall accept you." That is the process. Not that "I am incarnation of God." How you become incarnation? Just lift one hill. Or show me virāṭ-rūpa. Or show me that you have sixteen thousand wives and you are maintaining them in sixteen thousand palaces. Then you call yourself that "I am incarnation of Kṛṣṇa." Otherwise, you rascal, I cannot believe you. For them. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa... He knows what is Kṛṣṇa, but because in future some rascal will come and will say that "I am incarnation of God," therefore it is a warning that before accepting one rascal as incarnation, you ask him to show virāṭ-rūpa.
Dr. Patel:
- manyase yadi tac chakyaṁ
- mayā draṣṭum iti prabho
- yogeśvara tato me tvaṁ
- darśayātmānam avyayam
- (BG 11.4)
Prabhupāda: Yes. So because Arjuna was not accustomed to this impersonal theory...
Dr. Patel: Even the pastime, rūpa vi...(?)
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he wanted to see the virāṭ-rūpa. Therefore he said, "If you think that I shall be able to see, then You can give me."
Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Therefore those who are materialistic persons, they are amazed with the huge body of this universe. But Arjuna is saying that "On account of Your entering..." As this body has developed on account of entering, that minute particle or spiritual spark, similarly, there are innumerable universes. All these universes, they have developed. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa, Jaya. (break) ...Kṛṣṇa's entering as Garbhodakaśayī Viṣṇu. That is explained in the last chapter.
- athavā bahunaitena
- kim jñātena tavārjuna
- vistabhyāham idaṁ kṛstnam
- ekāṁśena sthito jagat
- (BG 10.42)
By His one plenary portion, by entering into this material world, so gigantic form is there. Therefore they cannot understand that how Kṛṣṇa, just like a human being, he can be more important than this gigantic cosmic manifestation.
Dr. Patel: Shall I read further?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Girirāja: (reads) "...we are given the histories of Kṛṣṇa's appearances and disappearances millions and billions of years ago. In the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna that both he and Arjuna had many births before, and that He, Kṛṣṇa, could remember all of them and that Arjuna could not. This illustrates the difference between the knowledge of Kṛṣṇa and that of Arjuna. Arjuna might have been a very great warrior, a well-cultured member of the Kuru dynasty..." (break)
Acyutānanda: In the last part of Kṛṣṇa Book, Mahā-Viṣṇu says that Arjuna is of the capacity of Nara-nārāyaṇa. So they are avatāras also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Acyutānanda: But as Arjuna he acts as an ordinary jīva?
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are different types of śaktyāveṣa avatāra. So when an ordinary jīva is specially empowered, he is called śaktya aveṣa avatāra, śatktyaveṣa avatāra, vibhūti. Yad yad vibhūtimat sattvam. He is living entity, but especially empowered. Just like for certain business I give sometimes somebody power of attorney, that "He will do this. He will sign for me." Like that. He is also one of the disciples, but for particular purpose, he is given the power of attorney. In this way when a living entity is empowered specifically to do something, that is called śaktyāveṣa avatāra. Aveṣa avatāra. Kṛṣṇa śakti vinā nāhe nāma pracāra. That is explained in the... These are explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. (break) ...śaktya. Mama tejo-'ṁśa-sambhavam. So śaktyāveṣa avatāra is not viṣṇu-tattva. He is jīva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jīva-tattva especial power.
Bhāgavata: They are śaktyāveṣa avatāras.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: So Nara-nārāyaṇa Ṛṣi is which?
Prabhupāda: Nara-nārāyaṇa Ṛṣi was a ṣaktyāveṣa avatāra.
Acyutānanda: So Arjuna has no constitutional connection with them, but at that time he was equal, by deputed potency. But they are individuals.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Arjuna is also... Yes, equal to Nara-nārāyaṇa. (break) ...as Nara-nārāyaṇa. Somewhere, I think.
Girirāja: (reads) "Kṛṣṇa's knowledge is so perfect that He remembers all the incidences of His appearances some millions and billions of years in the past. But Arjuna's memory and knowledge are limited by time and space, for he is an ordinary human being." (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa did not become God by the so-called meditation or mystic power. He has already all this yogeśvara. All mystic powers are already there. (break) ...that man?
Girirāja: Does he also appear through Mahā-Viṣṇu? When Kṛṣṇa appears, it says that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He appeared through Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu.
Girirāja: Oh.
Bhāgavata: But He's still the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Can he be a general?
Prabhupāda: Mr. Sar.
Mr. Sar: Arjuna was a very, very great general, the most ideal general representing the real culture of this country.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. It doesn't matter. Nanda Mahārāja, a vaiśya. Arjuna is a kṣatriya. And there are many śūdras also. So what is that goat(?) caṇḍāla. He was a caṇḍāla. But everyone has got the right to become a devotee. That is wanted. (break) ...tanuvān manobhiḥ. Remain in your place, but giving aural reception to the Kṛṣṇa message, you become a devotee. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We don't ask anybody to change. We want to make him transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). (break) Brahma-stuta śruti-kārayan. Now, in the brahma-stuta, yaṁ brahma, beginning... So that is yaṁ brahma. Then simply if you recite, yaṁ brahma... You must know who is that yam. And that is being explained by Kṛṣṇa. Here is that yam, Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Vasudeva, bolo.
Child: (chants some verse in Sanskrit.)
Prabhupāda: Devakī ānandam.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇaṁ vande jagat guru.
Prabhupāda: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature's way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that "Thou shalt not kill," it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable. Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Kṛṣṇa has specifically mentioned, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, that He says that "You offer Me." "Offer Me" means "After My eating, you shall eat." Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Even by killing vegetable, you are also as sinful as killing animal, but because we offer to Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are not sinful. Kṛṣṇa wants it. Just like Kṛṣṇa wanted Arjuna to fight and kill the other party. Therefore Arjuna is not infected with the sin. So here Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Give me this foodstuff," and Kṛṣṇa knows that I will eat the remnants of the foodstuff. So I am not responsible. We have no very much study of the Muslim, but instead of criticizing others, better we shall preach our own cult. But if there is occasion when somebody attacks, then we should be prepared. But our positive business should be to inform people what is the nature of God, as they are stated in Bhagavad-gītā and in Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet, this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar... This is called vidhiliñ form of verb. So vidhiliñ form of verb is used when there is a..., matter is a must. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyam. And that is the Vedic version. Therefore... You have read Bhagavad-gītā. You will find Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam. Find out this verse.
Nitāi: Text seven.
- kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ
- pṛcchāmi tvāṁ dharma-sammūḍha-cetāḥ
- yac chreyaḥ syān niścitaṁ brūhi tan me
- śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ tvāṁ prapannam
- (BG 2.7)
"Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... Here is the question, "confused."
O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that what is the... Thank you.
Nitāi: "...and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am..."
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we are opening school for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the rascals, they cannot understand what is bhakti and what is karma. Bhakti looks like karma, but it's not karma. It is bhakti. They cannot understand what is bhakti. Bhakti means the same karma, but for Kṛṣṇa's sake. That is bhakti. Just like the same fight, battlefield, but because it was done for Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna is accepted, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: (BG 4.3) "You are My devotee. You are My very dear." But what did he do? His business was to fight. He fought, that's all. But fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is the secret. He did not change his fighting capacity as a warrior. But he changed his mentality. His mentality was that "Why shall I kill my kinsmen?" But Kṛṣṇa wanted, "Oh, that's all right." So therefore service is for Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Not for his sense gratification. Karmī means sense gratification, and bhakta means Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification. That is the difference. Sense gratification is there. When you do it for your personal sense grati..., it is karma. And you do it for Kṛṣṇa's sense gratification, it is bhakti. So therefore they look similar, but the quality is different. Harer nāma (CC Adi 17.21). Dhare prema nāma. The gopīs, they acted like prostitutes, but the center was Kṛṣṇa. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommends, ramyā kacid upāsanā vrajavadhu-vargena ya kalpita (?): "Oh there is no more better mode of worship than it was conceived by the gopīs." What is their conception? Prostitution, that's all. Simple prostitute. Kṛṣṇa was a beautiful boy and they were attracted by the beauty of Kṛṣṇa. They wanted Him as their husband, lover, to dance with them. That is the gopīs. And these rascals are taking that "This is very good. Kṛṣṇa also did like this. So let us do; gather some girls and dance, and we become Kṛṣṇa." This is Māyāvāda, Therefore Vyāsadeva has devoted nine cantos just to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then try to understand what is the gopīs' behavior with Kṛṣṇa. But these rascals jump over it. Sahajiyās. Jump over Kṛṣṇa's dealing with the gopīs. And that is Bhāgavata. Because rascals, they shall remain rascal.
Prabhupāda: So Arjuna is presenting his inability, and what we are?
Guest (3): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, in history there was the mystery of the sphinxes of Egypt, do these sphinxes carry any significance?
Prabhupāda: Hum?
Yogeśvara: Is the pyramid and the sphinx in Egypt civilization are any mystic significance?
Pṛthu Putra: It's a great relevance for the Egyptian civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like samādhi. Samādhi, when you become samādhi, then if you're, I mean to say, put within the earth, you do not die.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Even if you are put in the earth you do not die.
Pṛthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupāda: This is called kumbhaka-yoga.
Prabhupāda: So our real business is how to become free from all these designations. Yes. Then we come to the real consciousness. That real consciousness is that "I am eternal. God is eternal. I am part and parcel of God. My duty is to serve God. And now I am serving also. I am not free from service, but I am serving under designation." Just like you went to fight, because you designated yourself that "I am German." This is an example, that "I must fight, give service to my country." Somebody is thinking, "Give service to my community" or "to my family." Or if there is nobody else, at least "to my dog." So this is going on. So we have to close all these designations and become pure and serve God. And that is self-realization.
- sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
- tat-paratvena nirmalam
- hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
- sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
- (CC Madhya 19.170)
Just like the Arjuna. Arjuna was put into the ba... You have read Bhagavad-gītā, I think, this Bhagavad-gītā?
Professor Durckheim: Yes.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Well, Arjuna was gṛhastha and a king and a politician. If he could learn within half an hour the aim of life, then where is the difficulty for a gṛhastha? Arjuna was not a sannyāsī. So it was spoken to him only, and Kṛṣṇa selected that "You are the right person." So there is no question of gṛhastha, sannyāsī. The person must be right to understand.
Guest (4): Is it possible to develop some such kind of psyche?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Arjuna was not willing to fight. Then he developed; "Yes, I must fight for Kṛṣṇa." That is development.
Guest (4): So there is no conflict between the...
Prabhupāda: Gṛhastha is also āśrama. It is as good as sannyāsa āśrama. You can accept any āśrama suitable for you, but āśrama means cultivation of spiritual knowledge. That is the difference between āśrama and ordinary house. Now, this building is called temple, and the next building is called house. Why? The building is the same. But it is meant for cultivating spiritual knowledge. Therefore it is called temple, to understand God. The other house is meant for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. Therefore they are house. So you can change your house into temple provided you try to understand God. Then it is āśrama. Otherwise it is house.
Guest (4): But is it possible to jump from brahmacārī to directly sannyāsa?
Prabhupāda: No, this is example. By receiving a knowledge, you must corroborate by your knowledge or by your experience, by the method. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said that Arjuna was declining to fight in the war. So Kṛṣṇa said that "You are simply lamenting on this body, but you do not know what is the active principle of the body." So this you can understand very nicely, that everyone is working for this body, but nobody knows what the active principle of the body. Without the active principle of the body, this body, alive or dead, is the same thing, lump of matter. So Arjuna accepted Kṛṣṇa as teacher; therefore He is chastising him that "You are talking like a learned man, but you are lamenting on this body, but no learned man laments on this body, either dead or alive." Because without the knowledge of the active principle which is moving the body, what is the use of simply understanding the bodily construction? The medical science knows the construction of the body, anatomy, physiology, the bone, this muscle, the blood and everything, but he does not know what is the active principle. When the active principle gone, they cannot repair it. So there may be vast advancement of medical science, but if the medical science cannot check birth, death, old age and disease, then what is the use of it? It may have some temporary use, but actually it is not science. Nobody wants to die. Is there medical science which can stop death? So that knowledge may be temporary, beneficial, but ultimately, it is not the knowledge. I am anxious for not dying. Nobody wants to die. This is my anxiety. And where is that science, medical science? So we are satisfied with some temporary knowledge. We have no ultimate knowledge. And because it is very difficult subject matter, we have avoided it very carefully.
Prabhupāda: This is the definition of pure devotee. "If God satisfies me in my sense gratification, then I love God. Otherwise I have no connection with Him." That is not devotion; that is business. So business-type devotion is not devotion. It is devotion—it may be accepted as a pious activity, not devotion. Devotion is transcendental to pious and impious activity. Just like Arjuna was thinking to fight with his cousin-brothers and kill them is impious. But when he understood, "Kṛṣṇa wants this fight," he transcended the impious activity, and by the order of Kṛṣṇa he killed his relative. Therefore this devotion is above the position of pious and impious activity. Therefore it is called transcendental.
Guest (4): I am not clear on what you're saying that for someone...
Prabhupāda: It is clear. If you have got some motive and with motive you go to God, that is not pure devotion.
Guest (4): It is wrong to petition God?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not wrong, but it is not pure devotion.
Guest (4): I see.
Prabhupāda: Some way or other, if you go to God, that is very good. With motive or without motive, you have come to God, that is piety. That is better than to become impious. Impious men, they do not go to God. Just like nowadays nobody goes to church. Church are selling. Simply... Temples also. So now there are in India so many township development. They are constructing very fashionable houses, but no temples. Nobody is constructing temple. At the present moment everybody has become disinterested with anything religion and God. All over the world. That is degradation. Especially I am seeing in Bombay, that Juhu scheme, very nice houses are being manufactured. You have all seen. But nobody is constructing a temple. The modern economists, they say "nonproductive endeavor"—means there is no income. Simply you have to spend money for maintaining the temple. So they are not interested in nonproductive things. So this is degradation of the human society. Either as Christian or Hindu or Mohammedan, nobody is interested. A few may be interested. (pause)
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The satisfaction is the point. So just like the head of the family, he is asking his wife to do something, children to do something, servant to do something. So if they are doing according to the order, then it is very nice. The head of the family is satisfied, and everything is going nicely. Anywhere, in office also. There are different officers, secretaries, managers, and the director. He has given: "You do this. You do that. You do that. You do that." So if they do their duty, then everything is nice. Just like in your body. Here also we have got different parts. The hand does something, the leg something, the belly something, the brain something. What the brain does, the leg does not do. But the leg is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. The brain is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. Hand is doing for the satisfaction of the whole body. That is required, not that what is brain doing, the leg has to do the same. The leg may do his own way, but the aim is satisfaction of the order of the... I ask the leg, "Please take me from this room to that room." That is leg's duty. I am satisfied. So not that Kṛṣṇa is only one-sided. That they do not understand. Kṛṣṇa is the īśvara, controller of the whole creation. So if He gives you something to do for His satisfaction, you do that. It does not matter whether you are doing the same thing. The same example: Leg is doing something else than the hand, hand is doing something else than the brain, but the real purpose is to satisfy the whole. So Kṛṣṇa is not asking Vyāsadeva to come and fight in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra. Vyāsadeva is doing his own work. He is writing literature, Vedavyāsa. He is asking Arjuna to fight. But although the activities are different-Vyāsadeva is writing Vedānta-sūtra, and Arjuna is fighting—but both of them are equally important. Kṛṣṇa says Arjuna, bhakto 'si: "You are My very dear friend," and priyo 'si (BG 4.3), "Therefore I shall speak to you about this Bhagavad-gītā." Kṛṣṇa did not say, "Call Vyāsadeva. I have to speak Bhagavad-gītā. He is learned scholar." No. Arjuna was not a learned scholar; he was a warrior. And he was a gṛhastha, busy in politics. Still, He called Arjuna, "Yes, I shall speak to you Bhagavad-gītā." Why? Bhakto 'si: "You are My devotee." So to become devotee doesn't require that one has to become very big scholar or very rich man. No. Simply you have to agree, "Yes, Sir, what You say I shall do," that's all. This is bhakta. To become bhakta is not very difficult thing. You simply agree, "Kṛṣṇa, what You say, I shall do," that's all. Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). That is, perfection. So Kṛṣṇa wants this. This is the common formula for all.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gives to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna. He fought. He killed. Killing is not good business, but he killed on the advice of Kṛṣṇa, and he became a bhakta by killing. Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si. And what did he do? He killed, that's all. This is an example. Of course, bhakta never kills. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna was not willing to kill. But when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it, so this is my first business. Never mind I shall go to hell," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. "By killing my brother I may go to hell. It doesn't matter. But Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That is my first business." Kṛṣṇa sometimes pretended to be sick. And many physicians came, they could not cure Him, headache. So He suggested that "I think if My devotee gives their dust of foot on My head, then I'll be cured." Then every devotee was approached that "Give your dust of feet. Kṛṣṇa wants it." Even Nārada. So Nārada said, "How it is possible I shall give my dust of feet to Kṛṣṇa? No, no, no, it is not possible." But when the person, messenger, approached gopīs in Vṛndāvana and they were informed that "Kṛṣṇa is sick. So He wanted the dust of feet of the devotee to be applied on His head. Nobody gave it. So we have come last to you," so immediately: "Yes, yes, take it, take it." Immediately. So so much dust was collected. And Kṛṣṇa was cured. So this is gopīs. Others thought that "If I give the dust of my feet to Kṛṣṇa, I may go to hell," but the gopīs thought, "Let us go to hell, but let Kṛṣṇa be cured." Therefore the gopīs are the first-class devotee. They do not care for themselves. That is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Ramyā kācid upāsanā vraja-vadhū-vargabhir ya kalpitāḥ: "The process of worship as it was planned by the gopīs in Vṛndāvana, there is no comparison. That is the highest devotion." They did not care for themself. They simply wanted to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa was playing flute at dead of night, all the gopīs were flying to Kṛṣṇa. His father, his husband—"Where you are going in this dead of...? Where you are going?" They didn't care. Society, friendship, love—all sacrificed: "We shall go to Kṛṣṇa." This is kṛṣṇa-bhakti. That is the highest perfection of life, to sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. "Only Kṛṣṇa should be satisfied."
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But that is not very easy job. But one can do if he likes, everything for Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says also, sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). Gopīs did not care for social, for religious or family and nothing. Sarva-dharmān parityajya. They went: "Kṛṣṇa now is calling. Let us go." This is the typical example of sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ. So, of course, it is not possible to become on the standard of gopīs. That is not possible. But at least we shall try to follow these devotees. Arjuna is there, gopīs are there, Uddhavas are there—many devotees. Lord Brahmā is there. Lord Śiva is there. Kapiladeva is there. The four Kumāras are there. Bhīṣmadeva is there. Prahlāda Mahārāja is there. Janaka Mahārāja is there. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is there. So mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). If we simply follow these big, big devotees, then our life is successful. For authorized persons' name, to follow them:
- svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ
- kumāraḥ kapilo manuḥ
- prahlādo bhīṣmo janako
- balir vaiyāsakir vayam
- (SB 6.3.20)
Twelve: Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, Nārada, then the four Kumāras, then Kapiladeva, then Prahlāda Mahārāja, Bhīṣma, Janaka Mahārāja, Vyāsadeva, er, no, Vaiyāsakī, son of Vyāsadeva. Not Vyāsadeva—son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. Bali Mahārāja and Yamarāja. These twelve mahājana, we can follow them. Sarvātmā snapane baliḥ. Bali Mahārāja gave everything to Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Prabhupāda: No, if you accept Kṛṣṇa as the teacher, authority, just like Arjuna accepted. Arjuna said, śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: (BG 2.7) "Now I accept You as my teacher." Śiṣya. Śiṣya means disciple. Śiṣyas te aham: "I am Your now disciple. Don't accept me as Your friend." Friend to friend talk, it is not very serious. So when one is accepted as the master, then you have to accept his statement. There is no question of argument. That is the relationship between guru and disciple. Therefore the process is: before accepting a person as guru, one must study his position. And guru also, before accepting a disciple, must study his position. In this way the relationship between guru and disciple is established. Now, Arjuna is a friend of Kṛṣṇa, so he has studied Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he submits, Arjuna, "Kṛṣṇa, although we are friends, now I accept You as my spiritual master." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam: (BG 2.7) "I am now surrendered." "Surrendered" means "As I accept you as my teacher, I'll not argue." So first of all this is required, that before accepting somebody as teacher one must be convinced that "The person whom I am going to accept, my teacher, is perfect." Then the knowledge will be nice. If we approach a perfect person and submissively hear from him, then the knowledge is perfect. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme authority, as Arjuna quoted. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Every one of you, Western countries. And if you have abided by the order of Jesus Christ, then why you are systematically killing? The order is, "Thou shall not kill."
Carol: It reminds me of the Gītā, you know? Where Arjuna is on the battlefield about to commit an organized sort of killing against his relatives.
Prabhupāda: No, two thousand years passed, but you could not accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you are Christian. When did you accept Christianity? That is my question. Because you have disobeyed the order of Christ. So when did you accept? Two thousand years passed. Hmm? Who will answer this question?
Jayadharma: Never.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jayadharma: They never accepted.
Carol: Hmm. What is the main part of your philosophy? Is it based on the Vedānta school?
Prabhupāda: No. This is no question of philosophy. You could not accept the simple instruction. Then where is the question of philosophy?
Carol: The question of love.
Prabhupāda: Courage in battle.
Guest 2: American soldiers.
Prabhupāda: No, whoever may be. Not that I sit down in my armchair and I give direction. The poor soldiers are fighting. No. He should go. Courage. He should personally give direction, "Do like this." Who is doing that? The minister of defense is very comfortably sitting on his chair, and the poor soldiers are fighting. That is not required. He must go first of all: "Do like this." Just like in Battle of Kurukṣetra, Arjuna is in front; the other side, Duryodhana. The real fighters, they are face to face. Soldiers are assistant. Where is that? So they should be trained up. So unless he is by his nature very powerful, śauryam... What is that?
Amogha: Śauryam, heroism.
Prabhupāda: Heroism. Therefore the kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt in the forest to become hero because he has to fight. Just like in medical laboratory they first of all dissect some poor animal before touching human being. Therefore kṣatriyas are allowed to hunt to become hero. Facing the tiger, "Come on." And still, say, about twenty-five years ago, there was a native prince in Jaipur. Every year he would go to the forest and face the tiger, without any weapon. So that is required.
Guest 2: That is good?
Prabhupāda: That is required. Those who are politicians, those who are going to be president, they must be like that.
Guest 2: In our society that wouldn't be thought good.
Prabhupāda: No, your society whatever you may be, this is the idea.
Guest 1: Well, that's almost the description of General Amin.
Guest 1: It's an Indian.
Madhudviṣa: We brought back Wally one picture from India on the battle of Kurukṣetra of Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu's head was there, and Karṇa was on the ground with his chariot, and Arjuna was about to kill him, and Kṛṣṇa was directing him to kill. So I told Wally the story that when Abhimanyu was surrounded by the mahārathīs, there was no mercy then, so now Karṇa was objecting that...
Prabhupāda: Injustice.
Madhudviṣa: ...he cannot shoot a man if he gets off his chariot. And Kṛṣṇa said, "There was no mercy with Abhimanyu, so therefore there will be no mercy now."
Prabhupāda: Tit for tat. (laughter)
Guest 1: But where was the generosity then?
Prabhupāda: That is happening, tit for tat.
Guest 1: Was that generosity, or...? Where was the generosity?
Prabhupāda: No. That is war tactics. That is war tactics. Sometimes we have to use war tactics because we have to own victory. But they were generous because in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra they would fight like anything, like enemies, but at night they were friends. The one man is going. Just like sportsman. They fight during the play, but after that, they are friends, talking together, drinking together, like that.
Guest 2: Like barristers and prosecutors.
Nitāi: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless one is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate the material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness."
Prabhupāda: They are trying to dominate the material nature, the so-called scientists. But they do not know that they are under the domination of material nature. They are forgetting that. If you are more powerful, if you are dominating me, how I can dominate you? That they do not know, that we are under the domination of material nature. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi (BG 13.9). The domination is manifest by four things: birth, death, old age, and disease. I cannot dominate my birth, death, old age, and disease and I am trying to dominate over nature. Just foolishness. Big, big scientist, did he dominate over death, Professor Einstein? Did not he die? Why he could not find out any means that he will not die? What is the meaning of the science? If you are dominated by the laws of material nature, how you are thinking that you shall dominate over material nature? When death comes can you dominate? "No, no, I am scientist. Just wait." No, you must die immediately. So where is your domination? You are dominated by material nature. That is the mistake of the present society, that everyone is being dominated by the material nature and the so-called scientist is trying to dominate over material nature. How it is possible?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Hopkins: It starts in Chapter Two with the question of what is ātmā?
Prabhupāda: In Chapter Two it is said... Arjuna was lamenting that "I shall fight and the other party they are my brother, so I will be sinful. So many problems will come." He was thinking like that. So Kṛṣṇa first gave him lesson that "Why you are thinking on the bodily concept of life? You are not body. You are spirit soul." Then He gave spiritual education.
Prof. Hopkins: So you must start with what the Gītā calls sāṅkhya-yoga then, but go on, and go on to bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Bhakti-yoga is said last. Sarva dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). People are not prepared to take the sublime lesson immediately. Then he has to go step by step. So that is the system of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prof. Hopkins: Are there other ways besides Kṛṣṇa consciousness to reach that same goal?
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Hopkins: Or is that the only goal?
Prabhupāda: That is only. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā. Bhaktyā mām abhi... If you want to know God and your relationship with God then only through bhakti, no other. That is stated in the... Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Otherwise you will never be able to understand.
Prabhupāda: That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna. Although Arjuna is... Birth after birth, he is friend of Kṛṣṇa, nitya-siddha. Still, he forgets, what to speak of others. Bahūni me janmāni tava cārjuna. That means, "We are friends always. So you also appear; I also appear. But the difference is you forget; I don't forget. That is difference between you and Me. You also don't forget. That is for limited time. But the consciousness is the same. Only difference is that My consciousness is unlimited; your consciousness is limited. That is difference." This understanding is ahaṁ brahmāsmi. My consciousness and Kṛṣṇa's consciousness, that is fact. But Kṛṣṇa's consciousness is everywhere; my consciousness is within myself. That's all. The Māyāvādī interprets, yena sarvam idaṁ tataḥ: "One who is expanded everywhere, pervaded." But I am not pervading everywhere.
Dhṛṣṭaketu: They say when you become liberated then you become..., then you pervade everywhere. It's just that... They say that just now, in this position...
Prabhupāda: So when you will be liberated? What is the standard of liberation?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: By performing austerities, by studying the...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. What is the standard?
Dhṛṣṭaketu: When I merge, when I lose my identity, when I don't...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But Arjuna is fighting for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no... You try one point. Arjuna's fighting is... That is all right. So what is your question? The subject matter was different. Now you jump over to another. Why?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): So everything is in the Bhagavad-gītā. Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. This understanding, that soul is different from the body, it is meant for the dhīra, not for the adhīra. There are two classes men, dhīra and adhīra. So adhīra
means busy fool, and dhīra means lazy intelligent. But our, this movement is meant both for the dhīra and adhīra. Adhīra. We can make them really human beings. Never mind he is dhīra or adhīra. It is so nice movement. Dhīrādhīra. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī dhīrādhīra priyau. It is very pleasing both for the dhīras and adhīras. Why not? What we are doing? We invite people, "Please come here. Chant, dance, and take prasāda." So both the dhīras and adhīras, they will be attracted. Dhīrādhīra priya. (break) You cannot make everyone dhīra; that is not possible. There is necessity of adhīra also. That is also... But it should be guided by the dhīra.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He becomes real bhakta, when he realizes that he's soul and not body.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Till then he is not a bhakta.
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning. Therefore Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, He says, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Because everyone is rascal, he is thinking, "I am this body." Arjuna was also thinking, "How shall I kill my other side, my brother, my nephews?" Bodily. Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand that "I am not this body; I am soul." That is the beginning. For so many years people are reading Bhagavad-gītā, but still they are in bodily concept. That is the misfortune.
Dr. Patel: Mahāmāyā duratyayā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (dog barking) No, no, no, don't. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (1): Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. Jaya. (break)... concept of life means animals. So just see. In the whole world is going on, nationalism.
Dr. Patel: Bhramāyān sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā (BG 18.61).
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā.
Prabhupāda: One woman, out of her eagerness to see Jagannātha, there was big crowd, she jumped up over the shoulder of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the devotees said, (in an urgent whisper:) "Come on, come on down. What you are doing?" Caitanya: "No, she is so eager to see Jagannātha. Don't disturb. Don't disturb. Let her stand on My shoulder." So there is no question of hating woman. We want simply devotee. That's all. But unless we are very advanced, we take precaution. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: Man is very (indistinct) grahi. Mind... I mean Arjuna was told by Bhagavān in sixth ajya, "Mind is so difficult to control..." (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He says that "My mind is disturbed even by seeing a wooden doll of a woman." So that is also there.
Dr. Patel: I mean the Vaiṣṇavas, sir, sādhus, they are not expected to look at the pictures of women.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not... Then how Caitanya Mahāprabhu allowed the woman to stand on His shoulder?
Dr. Patel: He is, was a mahaprabhu. Not for us...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is the criterion, that if one is perfect devotee, then it is all right. And so long he is not or she is not perfect devotee, then there is restriction.
Dr. Patel: In the sādhana stage.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, and He teaches also...
Dr. Patel: You consult Kṛṣṇa within before you do...
Prabhupāda: Yes, but Kṛṣṇa is not so foolish that He will give consultation...
Dr. Patel: He'll give consultation free of charge...
Prabhupāda: ...to the nondevotees. Arjuna was a devotee. That teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīthi-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). One who is constantly engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, to him He gives intelligence, not to the rascals. Kṛṣṇa is there, but—even in the heart of the pig or dog—but He does not give any instruction to the pig and dog. They must suffer. But only to the devotees: teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam. To them. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa is staying everywhere.
Dr. Patel: To them He gives yoga-kṣemam.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is open to even cats and dog. You'll get your food. They're getting their food. That is not very difficult thing. Eko yo bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Kṛṣṇa is..., Kṛṣṇa, He can, ah, bhū-bhṛt, bhūta-bhṛt. His name is bhūta-bhṛt. He is maintaining everyone.
Dr. Patel: Bhūta-bhṛt, bhūtastho.
Prabhupāda: Bhūta-bhṛt means (Hindi). All living entities are being...
Dr. Patel: But He is bhūtastho also.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is guarantee. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Because he is devotee, for material condition he could not remember, but Kṛṣṇa remembers, "Yes," that "he has done so much for Me."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, otherwise...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, it's just mechanical.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mechanical
Prabhupāda: No. That is.... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that.... He was giving the condition. Then, when Arjuna was little disturbed, so He said immediately, "Arjuna, you have no fear." Did you not read this portion?
Pañca-draviḍa: Then.... Then that verse, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvam (BG 8.6), is for...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is general. But a devotee, because Kṛṣṇa has taken charge of him, even he does not remember Kṛṣṇa, still, Kṛṣṇa is there.
Trivikrama: "I carry what you lack..."
Jayapatākā: Kṛṣṇa said, "I am the cause of remembrance and forgetfulness."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Generally devotee dies remembering Kṛṣṇa, generally. But even if for material condition he cannot, then Kṛṣṇa is taken charge.
Pañca-draviḍa: What was the arrangement with Bharata Mahārāja?
Prabhupāda: That is joint family, yes.
Akṣayānanda: Yes, joint families. And because of that, the attachment is very strong, it appears.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda? After the Battle of Kurukṣetra there were many men killed. How were all the young people and the women protected after so many millions of men were killed?
Prabhupāda: What do you mean by protection?
Devotee (2): Well, I mean like Arjuna was arguing that...
Prabhupāda: That was also.... That was condemned.
Akṣayānanda: Yes, that argument was not accepted.
Prabhupāda: That argument was not accepted by Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (2): But I mean, then how...
Prabhupāda: He proved that "You are a rascal. One who puts this argument, he's a rascal."
Akṣayānanda: That was just an excuse to avoid fighting.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa clearly chastised him that "You are talking like a fool." Eh? Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān: (BG 2.11) "Talking like a very learned man, but you are a fool. No learned man speaks like that." Why they have kept this nice road within this forest? What is the idea?
Prabhupāda: That you'll understand when you actually understand yourself. You do not understand yourself. You cannot understand why Kṛṣṇa said that "You fight." First of all understand yourself. That is the first instruction the Arjuna was given, that the.... Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). He's not teaching how to fight. He's teaching the philosophy. Try to understand the, I mean, step by step. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a scientific movement. It is not a religious faith. That is not. The beginning is that as the child grows to become a boy and boy grows to become a young man.... This is scientific. It is not the question of religion. It is religion.... According to Sanskrit, the dharma, the word dharma, that is translated into "religion," and religion means a kind of faith. But it is not like that. It is a science to understand your real identification. And because Kṛṣṇa we worship.... Every big man should be worshiped, so Kṛṣṇa we accept God. They take it as religion. But He's God. That's a fact. God-worshiping is religion. But Kṛṣṇa is speaking everything knowledge. Knowledge means you must have knowledge of everything, social, political, religious, cultural, philosophical, chemical, physical, everything. So the Bhagavad-gītā is like that. Vedic knowledge is like that. You receive any type of knowledge you want to get. That is called Veda. Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means of anything. That is knowledge. So everything is there. You'll find social, political.... This fighting is political. So in politics sometimes war is necessary. You cannot avoid it when there is politics. That is the whole history, and politics are never settled up without war. There is no history. When you come to the political platform, war is necessary. In logic it is called argumentum vaculum, that when a man is not accepting reasoning, then there must be stick. It is like that. When there are two parties—there is some disagreement—so one is not reasonable, then there must be stick. That is war. Just like animal. The animal cannot understand reasoning, so you have to take the stick. Then the animal will agree. If a dog entering room, you don't want him in, so you say, "Dog, don't enter." He'll not hear. And if you show a stick, it will go away. So for the dogs, for the animals, stick is required. That is war. And there is logic.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, similarly, if somehow or other one can sell one book to a person it is good for him. Don't take how he is selling, but he's giving the book to that person and he's paying something and that is good. But big moralist, they cannot understand. They'll see, "Why the father has spoken lie to his son. He's not a good father." They'll mistake. Father is always friend. Father cannot be enemy. But for the benefit of the rascal child sometimes he has to say like that. That "If you take the medicine I'll give you cake." So those who are mundane moralist, they cannot understand this thing, because they are mundane platform. The another example is that Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja. He was asked by Kṛṣṇa that "You speak lie to Dronācārya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Kṛṣṇa. For this moral activity he had to visit hell. This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles. Arjuna. Arjuna was arguing with Kṛṣṇa that this killing of my relatives, it is horrible, abominable. Better I beg and maintain myself than I kill my relatives and become a king. Did he not say? That is ordinary man's argument. But as Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja refused to speak lie, (break) Arjuna in spite of his conviction that it is sinful to kill my relatives, he still agreed to kill. Why?
Bhūrijana: That is supreme moral, Kṛṣṇa's desire.
Prabhupāda: He has done a good job.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is a fit person, very intelligent.
Prabhupāda: So in this way... You are all intelligent, you can plan. The aim is how to distribute books. That is first consideration. (break) In Bhāgavata it is very figuratively described that we have got this body and the different parts. Just like Arjuna is sitting on the chariot. There is chariot driver, there are horses, reins. There is field, and the arrow, and the bow. They have been figuratively. So this can be used for killing the enemies of our Kṛṣṇa Consciousness and then give up all this paraphernalia, chariot, we... Just like after fighting, only victory, then you kill them. And similarly this body is there, the mind is there, the senses are there. So utilize it for conquering over this material existence. And then give up this body and go back to home.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Does the devotee, I mean just like you are always enthusing us to push on...
Prabhupāda: That is sharpening your weapons. That is also described. By serving the spiritual master, you keep your weapon always sharpened. And then take help from Kṛṣṇa, the words of spiritual master sharpen weapon and yasya prasādad bhagavata..., and the spiritual master is happy, then Kṛṣṇa immediately will help. He gives you strength. Suppose you got a sword, sharpened sword. But if you have no strength, what will you do with the sword? Kṛṣṇa will give you the strength, how to fight and kill the enemies. Everything is described. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu (said) guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpāya (CC Madhya 19.151), make your weapon sharpened by the instruction of the spiritual master and then Kṛṣṇa will give you strength, you'll be able to conquer. This figurative explanation I think last night I did. Here is a verse, acyuta bala, acyuta bala. Is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa here?
Hari-śauri: (calls out) Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That is, rascal, that his soul is not there, therefore defective. The body is already defective, your body, my body, but it is effective only so long the soul is there.
Devotees: Jaya!
Prabhupāda: The body is always defective. Either child's body or your body or my body, it is always defective without the soul and it is effective with the soul. This is the conclusion. Therefore Arjuna was chastised by Kṛṣṇa that "You are giving stress on the body. This kind of conception is for the fools." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca bhāṣase: (BG 2.11) "You are talking like a very learned man, but a learned man knows always that this body is defective, either living or dead." The same body. Dead means the soul is not there, and living means the soul is there. The two conditions, effective and defective, is depending on the soul. The soul is important. You have to understand what is that soul. That is knowledge. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. To understand the truth, what is the truth there, that without something this body is dead, no more value, and with that something the body is so valuable. So one who is intelligent, he'll try to find out what is that truth.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, I told a friend, he's been a friend over the years, I tried to bring it home to him that we are not our body, and he said, "Oh, yes, and I cannot get away from the physical idea that I am this," and I said, "Your father is very sick now, and he may die at any time," he's very fond of his father, and when the father is dead and lying there on the floor and after few days he begins to smell, I asked him, "Is that still your father?" He had no answer for that.
Prabhupāda: No. It is all right. You sit down. It is fine, you can sit. No, no.
Hari-śauri: Sit over this side.
Jayādvaita: "The sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra, whom if we killed we should not care to live, are now standing before us on this battlefield." Arjuna did not know whether he should fight and risk unnecessary violence, although fighting is the duty of the kṣatriyas, or whether he should refrain and live by begging. If he did not conquer the enemy, begging would be his only means of subsistence. Nor was there certainty of victory, because either side might emerge victorious. Even if victory awaited them (and their cause was justified), still, if the sons of Dhṛtarāṣṭra died in battle, it would be very difficult to live in their absence. Under the circumstances, that would be another kind of defeat for them. All these considerations by Arjuna definitely prove that he was not only a great devotee of the Lord but that he was also highly enlightened and had complete control over his mind and senses. His desire to live by begging, although he was born in the royal household, is another sign of detachment. He was truly virtuous, as these qualities, combined with his faith in the words of instruction of Śrī Kṛṣṇa (his spiritual master), indicate. It is concluded that Arjuna was quite fit for liberation. Unless the senses are controlled, there is no chance of elevation to the platform of knowledge, and without knowledge and devotion there is no chance of liberation. Arjuna was competent in all these attributes, over and above his enormous attributes in his material relationships.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Death will wait for your finishing? Death will come, it will not wait. People have become less intelligent, mūḍha. The general description is given in the Bhagavad-gītā: mūḍha, narādhama. Human intelligence requires to understand these problems, but because they are mūḍha, and lowest of the human, simply like animals, eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. Narādhama. You do not solve the problems. Simply like animal, dancing. So go on reading.
Jayādvaita: "The kṛpaṇas or miserly persons, waste their time in being overly affectionate for family, society, country, etc., in the material conception of life. One is often attached to family life, namely to wife, children and other members, on the basis of 'skin disease.' The kṛpaṇa thinks that he is able to protect his family members from death; or the kṛpaṇa thinks that his family or society can save him from the verge of death. Such family attachment can be found even in the lower animals who take care of children also. Being intelligent, Arjuna can understand that his affection for family members and his wish to protect them from death were the causes of his perplexities. Although he could understand that his duty to fight was awaiting him, still, on account of miserly weakness he could not discharge the duties. He is therefore asking Lord Kṛṣṇa, the supreme spiritual master, to make a definite solution. He offers himself to Kṛṣṇa as a disciple. He wants to stop friendly talks. Talks between the master and the disciple are serious, and now Arjuna wants to talk very seriously before the recognized spiritual master. Kṛṣṇa is therefore the original spiritual master of the science of Bhagavad-gītā, and Arjuna is the first disciple for understanding the Gītā. How Arjuna understands the Bhagavad-gītā is stated in the Gītā itself. And yet foolish mundane scholars explain that one need not submit to Kṛṣṇa as a person, but to the unborn within Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa's within and without. And one who has no sense of this understanding is the greatest fool in trying to understand Bhagavad-gītā." (continues reading texts purports, 8-12, until the end of the recording.) (end)
Prabhupāda: No, that's not the fact. It is misunderstanding. We are actually struggling for achievement of the highest goal of life. Otherwise, why we are writing so many books? It is for the human beings. And they are being accepted. It is not for the cats and dog. This Bhāgavatam is not meant for the cats and dogs. So, vidyā bhāgavatāvadhi. In the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vedyaṁ vāstavam atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ vāstava-vastu-vedyam, what is actual life. So we are struggling to give people what is actual life. Kṛṣṇa comes down to teach us what is actual life. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7). When people become cats and dogs, dharmasya glāniḥ. Dharmasya glāniḥ means cats and dogs, because in the cats and dog society there is no question of dharma. They simply jump over and enjoy life. Eat, drink, be merry, enjoy eating, sleeping, sex and defense. That's all. So if human life is also trained up in a polished way, the same principles, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Dog is thinking, "I am this body, hound, greyhound," and barking, "gow, gow." Similarly, if we remain like that, in the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," then where is the difference between dog and ourself? The human life is meant for understanding that I am neither Hindu nor Muslim nor American nor Indian. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. That is beginning of life. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. And what is Brahman? Then life begins. The cats and dogs, they cannot think that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna was thinking in the bodily concept of life, "My family, my brother," and so on, so on, so he declined to fight. So...
Prabhupāda: This is the authoritative source, that you are not master, you are servant. Cultivate this knowledge. Don't try to become a master, falsely. That will never be successful. Remain servant of Kṛṣṇa, you'll be happy. That is the business of spiritual master. He gives the right information; therefore he is respected so much, because he does not cheat. "You can become master, even God you can become"—this is cheating. The real spiritual master says that "You can never become master. You are always servant." And therefore he's worshiped. He gives the right information. Therefore he is honored so, because he does not cheat. The so-called spiritual master is cheating, that "You take this mantra and give me some money and you become God." This cheating is going on. Spiritual master is to be worshiped. Why? Because he does not cheat. He gives the right information. That is his credit. Guruṣu nara-mati. Therefore one should not take guru as ordinary human being. Ordinary human being, he'll cheat you, or he'll give some information, he's cheating. But a guru, real guru, he'll not cheat you. Therefore he should be worshiped as good... God does not cheat you. Therefore guru should not be taken as ordinary human being. Guruṣu nara-mati. "I see that he is like ordinary man. His son is calling him 'father.' His wife is..." That's all right, but because he's giving the right information, he is not ordinary human being. Therefore he should be worshiped as good as God. He does not cheat. That is the test of guru. He'll never say that "You give me some bribe and you'll become God by meditation, transcendental." He'll never say that. This is cheating. Why father is respected? Because he never cheats the son. Father is also a man, another man. Why father is...? Because he's always wishing welfare of the son, he does not cheat, sincerely teaches him the reality. Then?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Kṛṣṇa. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate material nature, and gradually and proportionately as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness. In a Vedic mantra it is said that as he becomes learned in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he proportionately relishes his eternal, blissful life."
Prabhupāda: All right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Prabhupāda: No. There are so many. Hmm. What is that?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Purport? "There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."
Prabhupāda: That is not the right way. Kṛṣṇa never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyaśacin. "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Kṛṣṇa's plan. But Kṛṣṇa says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple (laughs)?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So therefore guru is necessary. Everyone is perplexed. Nobody can decide himself. Even a physician, a medical man, when he is sick, he does not make his own treatment. He calls for another physician because he is sick, his brain is not in order. How he can prescribe the real medicine for himself? That is natural. So similarly, when we are perplexed, bewildered, we cannot make any solution, at that time the right person, guru, is required. It is essential. You cannot avoid it. So in our present existence we are all perplexed. Arjuna is representating the perplexed position of the materialistic person. And we are actually all perplexed. So under the circumstances, to give us real direction a guru is required. Now, here is the example that Arjuna decided Kṛṣṇa as guru. He did not go to anyone else to accept as guru. The explanation is there. Find out. Na hi prapaśyāmi. "Without you I don't find anybody..."
Hari-śauri: Na hi prapaśyāmi mamāpanudyād yac chokam ucchoṣaṇam indriyāṇām, avāpya bhūmāv asapatnam ṛddhaṁ rājyaṁ surāṇām api cādhipatyam (BG 2.8). "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth..."
Prabhupāda: No. There is another verse that "Without You I do not find anyone else who can give me real..."
Hari-śauri: You know that one?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No.
Devotee: The doubt when... The fallen yogi. "Who else can...? I think so.
Hari-śauri: I'll look it up in the...
Prabhupāda: In the, is the,... There is... What are you finding?
Prabhupāda: So he has said already that "I do not find any other means to pacify me, and You are the only..." The purport is that Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru to instruct him how to get relief from the perplexed position. So in this sense the real guru is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is guru. Not only for Arjuna, for everyone. So if we take instruction from Kṛṣṇa and abide by that order, instruction, then our life is successful. That is our mission. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means accept Kṛṣṇa as guru. We don't say... Don't divert your attention. We don't say that "I am Kṛṣṇa." We never say that. We simply ask people that "You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa." Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), and we say that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Give up all other ideas of so-called dharma or religiosity." The same thing. But we don't say that you or me, "I am the authority." No, we don't say that. We say, "Kṛṣṇa is the authority, and you try to understand Kṛṣṇa." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Therefore the question is guru. So here, from the behavior of Arjuna, we see that guru is necessary. Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa as friend, but Arjuna saw that "This is, there is no good talking like this. We can continue talking.... Because we are equal status. Kṛṣṇa is my friend. I am also His friend. So He's answering, I am giving something. If this talking will go on, there will be no fruit." Therefore he said, "Now, Kṛṣṇa, I am becoming Your disciple." Disciple means there is no argument. Whatever the guru will say, you have to accept. That is disciple. That is final. There is no argument. So Arjuna put him into that position that "I cease to talk with You on equal level of friends. Now I accept You as guru." Therefore the guru is necessary, undoubtedly, because every one of us in perplexed position. But who is guru? Guru means Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. And all others are bogus.
Prabhupāda: And that Vedānta-sūtra says, athāto brahma jijñāsaḥ. Now here Arjuna is experienced, "You are the Supreme Brahman." So he has seen the Supreme Brahman. So you make Arjuna guru, Kṛṣṇa guru. Arjuna is representative of Kṛṣṇa, friend of Kṛṣṇa. So why do you go to a bogus guru? You must be cheated. Guru is essential. It is necessary. But take the real guru. But if you go to the bogus guru, you must be disappointed. For your treatment you need to go to a physician. That's all. When you are diseased you cannot say, "No, no, I don't want to..." It is necessary. But go to the real physician. Don't go to a cheater. He has no knowledge in the medical science, and he places himself as "I am physician, MD." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary, that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is real guru? Real guru is Kṛṣṇa or one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, Arjuna. Take them. Then you'll be benefitted. And if you go to a bogus man who does not know Kṛṣṇa, who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then you must be cheated. So the answer is guru is absolute necessary. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is Vedic injunction, that one must go. But he must go to the real guru. And who is real guru? Who knows Kṛṣṇa. Take, for example, Arjuna, how he studied Kṛṣṇa. And he says, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma (BG 10.12). Read the translation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Nārada, Asita, Devala, and Vyāsa, proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupāda: Arjuna is rectifying this because people may say, "Arjuna was Kṛṣṇa's friend, he is accepting Him as guru." No, Arjuna says, "Not only I, but other authorities, they also accept." So it is..., everything is clear, that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He should be accepted as guru or His representative should be accepted guru. Then it will be... So our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we are presenting Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. You take instruction from Him and be benefited. But one who is carrying this message, he is also authorized. Just like one money order, it is coming through the post office, but an ordinary peon is handing over the money. But he is representative of post office. Actually, the money order is being delivered by the post office, general post office. But it is coming through an ordinary peon. But because he is authorized to deliver you, he is also post office. He's as good as the post office. Just you have got a letter box, a small box, but if you put your letter there, your letter will surely go ten thousand miles away. Therefore, although it is a small box, you don't think it is small box. It is whole post office. Similarly, anyone who is carrying the message of Kṛṣṇa, don't think that he's ordinary man. If you imitate one box like that post box and put your letter, for thousand years it will lie down there. Because it is not authorized. So if somebody says this small box, red box, is as good as the post office, one may say, "Huh, this is small box. How it can be as good as the post office?" But you see. You post your letter, it will go. Therefore, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. Guru is directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Because he is presenting the words of Supreme Personality of Godhead without any deterioration. Therefore he is so honored. So therefore the conclusion is guru is necessary and guru is he who is representative of Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise he's bogus.
Prabhupāda: No, mahājana there is in Christian messiahs. There is mahājana. And later on, after Christ, there was so many other. Saint Matthew, Saint Thomas, like that. Mahājana is mentioned there. How can you say there is no mahājana? Mahājana means who is strictly following the original religion. That is called mahājana. Or who know the things as they are. They are called mahājana. And that means paramparā system. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is learning Bhagavad-gītā directly from Kṛṣṇa. He's mahājana. So you learn from Arjuna. And after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, as Arjuna acted, as Arjuna understood Kṛṣṇa, you follow that. Then mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Then you are following the mahājana. You are on the real path. Just like we are. Here it is said, mahājana, Svāyambhu. Svāyambhu means Brahmā, Lord Brahmā. So our, this sampradāya, Gauḍīya sampradāya, is Brahma-sampradāya. And Svāyambhu, Nārada. Nārada is also in the brahma-sampradāya. And Śambhu, Lord Śiva, he is also mahājana. He has got his sampradāya, Rudra-sampradāya. And similarly, Śrī-sampradāya. So all these sampradāya we must follow. Sampradāya vihina ye mantras te niṣphala mataḥ. If you do not belong to sampradāya, mahājana, then you are useless. You cannot concoct any religious system. So either you be Christian or Hindu it doesn't matter. You have to follow the mahājana. If a Christian says, "I don't believe in St. Thomas," what kind of Christian he is? Similarly, it doesn't matter who is a mahā... But real mahājana is he who is strictly following the principle as enunciated by God. That is religious system. Otherwise there is no religion. There is no question of religion. It is simply concoction. Mano-dharmi, mental speculator. Mental speculation is not religion. Religion is the order of Kṛṣṇa and one who follows that order, he is religious. That's all.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: This next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, question nineteen.
Prabhupāda: No, you think you have already explained. But where is the basis of your thinking like that? Because everyone knows the Mahābhārata battle was there, Battle of Kurukṣetra, that is a chapter in the Mahābhārata. And Kṛṣṇa is the speaker in that Battle of Kurukṣetra and Arjuna is the fighter. How do you take away the Kṛṣṇa of Mahābhārata from the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra? What is your reason?
Guest (1): No, that is all right. Kṛṣṇa, we call... But do we take it, do you take it...
Prabhupāda: You have to take it, because there is no difference. As soon as you bring in Mahābhārata and Kṛṣṇa, the Kṛṣṇa is the same. You cannot take it differently. Because Kṛṣṇa is speaking to one of the parties of the fighters, the Kurus and the Pāṇḍavas, and that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). Yuyutsavaḥ means two parties desiring to fight. Who are those parties? Māmakaḥ pāṇḍavāś caiva (BG 1.1). That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. That is the Mahābhārata history. So how you can differentiate this Kṛṣṇa, that Kṛṣṇa? There is no possibility, it is imagination. The beginning is Mahābhārata and the Bhagavad-gītā.
Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, excuse me for this, I read an article recently. One of my secretaries he brought that article to me, it was written by Dr. Bannerji in India-he's a professor at Calcutta University. And he says that Kṛṣṇa and the Mahābhārata, the Kurukṣetra, that is all a visionation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Bhakto 'si me...
Prabhupāda: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedantist, he was a soldier. How the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti-yoga? Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam (BG 4.1). It is the yoga. How a soldier... Arjuna was not a Vedantist, he was a fighter. There was a doubt that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bhakto 'si, "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification, one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible.
Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited...
Prabhupāda: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. He's... In the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being, two hands, two legs, this body they have got, that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11), they think that He is a man. His original form is (like) that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Find out. So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mūḍhā, rascals. He says avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). They do not know what is behind this human form. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say "How Brahman can come in a human form?" Why He cannot come? If He is all-powerful, where is the difficulty? Taking your argument, if Brahman is all-powerful, then where is the difficulty for Him to come as a human being?
Prabhupāda: And that is possible only through bhakti. Kṛṣṇa specifically mentions, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). He never says, "By jñāna, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Kṛṣṇa. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say "I am Bhagavān, I am God." So that attitude will not help to understand. (Prabhupāda converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Kṛṣṇa.) He says paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). He understands perfectly. There is no question of gṛhastha or sannyāsī. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is gṛhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gītā. So gṛhastha. (Hindi) ...in gṛhastha life or sannyāsī, Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says like that, :kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kibā vipra, whether one is a brāhmaṇa, kibā śūdra, or whether he is a śūdra, nyāsī kene naya, or whether he is a sannyāsī. That means whether he is a gṛhastha or brāhmaṇa, or.... There are eight varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.
kibā vipra kibā śūdra nyāsī kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
Anyone who understands Kṛṣṇa perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a gṛhastha, he's a soldier, he's a kṣatriya. He's neither brāhmaṇa nor sannyāsī nor Vedantist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he is guru. So gṛhastha (Hindi). Śravaṇam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Kṛṣṇa from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to go to a person where you can surrender. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: You can take Arjuna as guru. Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam (BG 4.2). He directly listened to Him. And he's guru therefore, because the guru is by the paramparā. So he understood Kṛṣṇa. So you take Arjuna's instruction. Make Arjuna your guru. What does he say? He accepts Kṛṣṇa, Param Brahman. So we accept Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahma. Where is the difficulty? Arjuna, by his direct experience talking with Kṛṣṇa, he understood Him that "Kṛṣṇa, you are Param Brahman." So you take the words of Arjuna and accept Him as Param Brahman. Where is the difficulty? Just like the same example, one lawyer giving example, the judgment of other court. That is accepted. So Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as Param Brahman. So why don't you accept? Where is the difficulty? You accept Arjuna as your guru, and whatever he says, you accept it. The difficulty is that we do not accept guru. That is the difficulty. Otherwise where is difficulty? Five thousand years, Kṛṣṇa spoke to Arjuna, but what Arjuna understood, that is there. So you accept it. What we are doing? We are accepting. That's all. Kṛṣṇa said mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7), "There is no more superior truth beyond Me." We are accepting, that's all. Where is the difficulty? But if you do not accept, who can make you to accept? It is not possible. Kṛṣṇa therefore said mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. "You do it." He never forces him. He's God, He can force, "You must do it." No, he doesn't say "You do it." Not only that, He says yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "Whatever you like, you do." What is that verse?
Prabhupāda: There is no fundamental difference. The same. Bhagavad-gītā recommends that you should select a very secluded place in a solitary sacred place, you should make your āsana, sit down perpendicularly, don't close your eyes completely, half open, and concentrate on the tip of the nose. Everything is there. "And then think of Me." But Arjuna said, he said, "Oh, it is not possible." He was a frank gentleman. He was not a hypocrite. He said that "You are recommending all these yoga practice, it is not possible for me. I am a politician, I have to execute so many other businesses. I cannot go to the secluded place and sit down like this. So you are recommending me for yoga practice, but I say I cannot." But at the present moment, they have become more than Arjuna. (laughs) What Arjuna denied, they want to practice. This is another hypocrisy. Arjuna was not an ordinary man. He was so exalted that he could speak with Kṛṣṇa directly, and coming from royal family, and he's famous as great fighter. He refused, "I cannot do that." And we are taking to yoga practice. We have become more than Arjuna. This is going on. He does not think himself that "Arjuna is such a great personality, he thought himself to be incapable to practicing yoga, and we are making a show of yoga, paying somebody large amounts of money"? That's all. This is going on.
Prabhupāda: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). You have read Bhagavad-gītā? So this is the duty. "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duties, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Kṛṣṇa conscious...," as Arjuna was thinking. But Kṛṣṇa gives you assurance, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ: (BG 18.66) "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up all other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty, how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty.
Dr. Sharma: What does it refer to, then, karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana?
Prabhupāda: That is when you do not know what is the ultimate duty. Because you are thinking that you are Indian, somebody is thinking he's America, somebody is thinking he's this or that. So there the advice is try to relinquish the result of your action. Don't be attached to the resultant action of your duty. The idea is to become detached, but because you cannot do it immediately, therefore the advice is, "All right, you remain in your so-called duty, but don't be attached to the result of your actions." Then where the action will go? Suppose I am a businessman and I have earned, say, two million dollars. So mā phaleṣu kadācana, the result is already there, what shall I do it? Two millions of dollars, I shall throw it in the street? What do you think?
Dr. Sharma: Not to be attached to it.
Prabhupāda: Translation.
Hari-śauri: "O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me."
Prabhupāda: That's all. That is understanding. Arjuna is not a fool. He said, "Whatever You have said, I accept them as truth." That is real understanding. But as soon as you make amendment, then you have not understood Kṛṣṇa. Sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yan māṁ vadasi keśava (BG 10.14). There are so many rascals, they think "I don't believe in this, I don't believe in this." That is not understanding of Bhagavad-gītā.
Indian man (3): Does it mean that before we, or anybody, before he at all...
Prabhupāda: Before he, if... First of all he must know what is Kṛṣṇa. Then he will understand that what is Kṛṣṇa. That he will understand from Bhagavad-gītā by this beginning. And at the end Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Lord. So if you know that Kṛṣṇa is Supreme Lord, then whatever He says is correct.
Indian man (3): That means the first thing is to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, and then...
Prabhupāda: Not blindly.
Indian man (3): Not blindly.
Indian man (3): He took the chariot wheel when Bhīṣma pitāmaha was coming to Arjuna. Is that a fight?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another instance, that for His devotee He can break His promise also. That is Kṛṣṇa. Arjuna... Duryodhana complained to Bhīṣmadeva, that "My dear grandfather, because you have affection for Arjuna and others, you are not fighting properly according to your strength." So at that time Bhīṣma saw that "This man is doubting about my sincerity." So he wanted to show his power, so he said, "All right." He knew everything, he was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa, so he promised to Duryodhana, that "Tomorrow I shall fight in such a way that either Arjuna will die or Kṛṣṇa will have to break His promise." So he fought in such a way that Arjuna was practically vanquished. At that time, Kṛṣṇa took the wheel of the chariot and came before Him, that "Bhīṣma, you stop this fight, otherwise I'll kill you." So Bhīṣma said, "Yes, I am stopping my fight, because You have broken Your promise, that's all." This is the dealing between God and His devotee. There is competition of devotional service. There are so many things. But on the whole, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the supreme authority; His instruction is final, and anyone who can understand this, his life is successful. Therefore our request is that don't make unnecessary useless interpretation. You take Bhagavad-gītā as it is and act accordingly, your life will be successful. This is our mission. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But if you cannot understand Bhagavad-gītā, we can try to explain before you what it is. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (guests coming in or leaving)
Prabhupāda: But you have to qualify yourself.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To get there. But once getting there, I mean it's plainly visible to the eyes.
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda gave the example that Arjuna, he was qualified, so that he went to Indraloka planet one time, and he saw with his eyes the cities, the palace of Indra.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he was tempted. Arjuna was tempted when he went to Indraloka. But he closed his eyes.
Prabhupāda: No, descriptions are there of Indraloka. The pavements with pearls.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Wow.
Prabhupāda: That is described, in the eighth chapter you'll find, er, Eighth Canto.
Rāmeśvara: In the Seventh Canto they described the palace of Indra, because Hiraṇyakaśipu had lived there. How he was living there, and the walls of his palace are studded with jewels. There's a nice description. What to speak of an ocean of milk, there's so many things they cannot imagine. (break) (walking)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The buses, you know the windows, some of the windows are broken a little bit—you saw them. Do you think they will look good in the parade? It's all right if the windows are not all...
Prabhupāda: Who is going to see? (break)
Hṛdayānanda: Great American paintings. What they consider to be great American paintings.
Hari-śauri: It's an art exhibition. (break)
Prabhupāda: "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilization—no knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs, you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Kṛṣṇa culture, Bhagavad-gītā, was spoken in the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra in India, and we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under... It is very easy. Bhagavad-gītā is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad-gītā as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gītā, and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gītā verses are so plainly explained, and... Just like here is one verse. We are trying to read. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "My dear Arjuna..." Arjuna is addressed as Bhārata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bhārata. So, very easy, that "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and me?" That you know simply everything, not everything, but to some extent, about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body. That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Kṛṣṇa knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Kṛṣṇa and ourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Kṛṣṇa is situated... Kṛṣṇa is not stereotyped in one place. Kṛṣṇa, He is in Goloka Vṛndāvana. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Bs. 5.37). That is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: You retired? Or...
Yogeśvara: He's still active.
Translator: Still has a few years to go.
Prabhupāda: Arjuna was a commander.
Bhagavān: Have they seen our French Bhāgavatam? Our new French Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: So we generally speak that Arjuna was military commander. So before understanding Bhagavad-gītā, he was commander, and after understanding, he remained a commander, but he became Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Translator: He says this brings to mind a question to him, that now that he has received Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he would like to know from you how he should behave in his normal life, because he'll be living very far from the temple. He's two thousand kilometers away from us, and he wants to know how his life should be conducted now that he has become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, Ninth Chapter. The whole Bhagavad-gītā he has to study, he'll understand. Especially in the Ninth Chapter. Beginning from Seventh to... All the chapters, especially Seventh to Twelfth chapter. He can open that Bhagavad-gītā Seventh Chapter. French.
Translator: This is French, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Read it.
Prabhupāda: You have to leave, you cannot stay. You do not want to leave, that's a fact, but you'll be kicked out. When Napoleon fought for France, he did not like to leave, but he was kicked out. I have seen in one park, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte there, France and Napoleon identified. But France is there, Napoleon is kicked out. (laughter)
Bhūgarbha: He's asking that in view of that, is it possible to live a household life and at the same time a spiritual life?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Arjuna, Arjuna is a householder, he's a military man, but the greatest devotee of Kṛṣṇa.
Bhūgarbha: He wants you to mention something about the translations. He wants to express his opinion about the translations that the French translators are doing of your books.
Prabhupāda: He is doing?
Bhūgarbha: He wants to give his opinion.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Bhūgarbha: He's asking permission to give his opinion.
Prabhupāda: It would be very nice.
Bhūgarbha: He says it is very interesting, very important that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam be translated in the same way as the Gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā has been translated many times into French, but the Bhāgavatam was only translated once, and that also in the last century.
Prabhupāda: This is our translation?
Prabhupāda: Yes, He's giving. Read the Bhagavad-gītā. But you rascals don't accept, what can be done? God is personally coming to give you intelligence, take this intelligence. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham (BG 4.7). "I come when there is no intelligence, when you are all rascals, I come to give you intelligence, but you don't take, what can I do?" That is God's mission, that "These rascals, without properly being guided they'll go to hell. Let Me give them some intelligence." That is Bhagavad-gītā, that is Bhagavad-gītā. Arjuna is kārpaṇya doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ: "I have become confused, so give me intelligence." Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). He's taking intelligence, how to tackle the situation. He was confused. He was to fight as a kṣatriya, but he saw that the persons with whom he has to fight, they are all family members. So what kind of fight is that? Who is fighting with family members? That was his confusion. Suppose we are Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Then if we declare fight amongst ourselves, is that very intelligent? So actually the Kurukṣetra battle was like that. Some intrigue of Dhṛtarāṣṭra that his son will occupy the throne, that was the cause of the fight. So Arjuna thought that "My uncle may be intriguing person, he has brought this disaster, fight amongst the family members, so why shall I do it? Better let them enjoy. They are also family members. Why this unnecessary fight?" He was responsible. He was not unreasonable, very good man, that "After all, they are also our family members, let them enjoy. Why there is unnecessary fight amongst family members?" He was not a coward, but he's good reasonable man, that "We are all brothers. They want to rule over. Let them rule over. Why fight?" Sometimes it is misunderstood, Kṛṣṇa is misunderstood, that Arjuna is such a nice man, he didn't want to fight, and Kṛṣṇa's inducing him "Yes, you must fight." It is puzzling. God is inducing a good man to fight, who does not want to fight. It is really puzzling. Is it not? Arjuna is a good, nice man, that "After all, it is family property. So other brothers, they want to rule it over. Let them do it. I shall better beg only.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Superficially, this is the position. But still Arjuna says that "You instruct me." He doesn't give up, he doesn't reject Kṛṣṇa, that "Kṛṣṇa, I am such a gentleman. I do not wish to fight. You are inducing me to fight, I don't want Your guidance." No. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi mām (BG 2.7)—"I surrender unto You." And therefore Arjuna is so great. He's not so-called gentleman; he is devotee. What was your question, why God does not come to instruct us? Who said? You told me. It was your question?
Atreya Ṛṣi: Yes, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence...
Prabhupāda: He's giving intelligence. But if you don't accept, what can be done? He has come Himself, and He's giving intelligence. You take it and be happy. But if you don't take it, what God can do?
Hari-śauri: Then your argument that I have no independence, that's not correct.
Prabhupāda: No. You have got independence, little independence.
Atreya Ṛṣi: You have freedom to choose intelligence or be a rascal.
Prabhupāda: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence. You can misuse it. So that misuse is wrong. Then you'll become unhappy. Kṛṣṇa says that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Says. He doesn't force you—you must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department?
Pradyumna: "Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion."
Prabhupāda: So understand Kṛṣṇa like Arjuna. Then Kṛṣṇa is there, Arjuna is there, and all victory is there.
Mrs. Sahani: Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa can become Arjuna? Kṛṣṇa is Kṛṣṇa, anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: He's like Arjuna. He's like Arjuna. What is Arjuna's qualification? He surrendered, and he says kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73). You become also Arjuna-like.
Mrs. Sahani: And the victory is there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then victory is there. But if one can avoid Kṛṣṇa or kill Kṛṣṇa, then where is victory?
Mrs. Sahani: Victory.
Prabhupāda: Victory, any man you can say victory. Where there is Kṛṣṇa, there is victory.
Mr. Sahani: But we don't want to go and fight like Arjuna, go out and kill people.
Prabhupāda: But if you want philosophy, the aim of life, the destination of life, then we can talk, what is the destination of life, what is required. If you criticize me, then I can criticize you also.
Jñānagamya: Then we must take it to the absolute platform in order to actually have a sincere argument, to make a sincere decision.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no end of such things. Therefore unless one accepts a person guru, there is no need of talking. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). Unless one accepts somebody as guru, the instruction will not be fruitful. Just like Arjuna is accepting Kṛṣṇa as guru. So long he was talking as friend, it was not effective. Arjuna therefore decided... Find out that verse, kārpaṇya-doṣopahata-svabhāvaḥ.
Prabhupāda: No, that is pañca-amṛta. Pañca-gavya a little different. Gobara, urine, milk, yogurt, and ghee. This is pañca-gavya, pertaining to the cow. And that honey, that is pañca-amṛta.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I have a question. Can I ask you?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Now then, Arjuna was so advised that he should fight out. So in that case, I mean we all consider he was right to follow Kṛṣṇa advice? Then if a man is overtaken by disease and if he fights out that...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I don't say that, that he should not fight. It is my personal... Not that one should not take care of the body or one should not eat medicine, that is not. I like this, let me do without medicine. That is my personal... It is...
Dr. Patel: What is medicine? Any herb is a medicine, even food is a medicine.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I don't decry medicine. That is not my business.
Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't say decry. But you don't want to take advantage of medicine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42).
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa has explained everything, all confidential. Now consider about it, think about it, and do whatever you like Yathecchasi tathā. The liberty is there. Whatever you like you can do. Kṛṣṇa will not force. He can force, but He does not interfere with little liberty. Then he becomes stone. Living entity has got little liberty because he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. When Arjuna was decided, naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā. Kṛṣṇa gave him liberty. Yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). But he voluntarily accepted, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava.
Harikeśa:
- arjuna uvāca
- naṣṭo mohaḥ smṛtir labdhā
- tvat prasādān mayācyuta
- sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ
- kariṣye vacanaṁ tava
- (BG 18.73)
Prabhupāda: This is real religion.
Harikeśa: "Arjuna said: My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions."
Prabhupāda: Then? Purport?
Devotee (3): Purport. "There are many pseudo-meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Kṛṣṇa did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set for kṣatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder kṣatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart..."
Prabhupāda: You are following? Go on.
Devotee (3): "...and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."
Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā is giving you gradual process to the highest point and highest point is to surrender. That is the most confidential part of knowledge. Sarva-guhyatamam. Guhyād guhyataram. Find out this verse, eighteenth chapter. He has given the instruction of karma, yoga, jñāna, everything, but the most confidential instruction is this.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say, what Kṛṣṇa directs, evaṁ paramparā prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Paramparā means to hear the truth from the spiritual master. You take this. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna accepted, when he was puzzled whether to fight or not to fight, he accepted Kṛṣṇa as guru. Śiṣyas te 'ham. "Now I don't want to talk or argue with You," because as soon as you become a śiṣya you have to accept the statement of the guru. That is the relationship between guru and śiṣya. You cannot talk with guru from the same level. Whatever guru says you have to accept. Otherwise don't accept guru. Don't make a fashion of taking guru just like you keep a dog. Guru, first of all you have to select. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā (BG 4.34). You have to select such a person where you can fully surrender. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted by Arjuna like that. Śiṣyas te 'haṁ śādhi māṁ prapannam (BG 2.7). First of all. "I have surrendered to you." This is the first instance (instruction?). That means whatever He says, and at last He says, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi (BG 10.14). This is... Not that you make cut cut.(?) That is the process. Here is the paramparā. Kṛṣṇa is speaking Arjuna and Arjuna is accepting, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye yad vadasi (BG 10.14). This is... Not that you make cut-cut (?). "Whatever You have said." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). "You have said that You are the Supreme, paraṁ brahma. I accept it." This is paramparā. So we have not seen Kṛṣṇa talking, but the words are there. So Arjuna has accepted Kṛṣṇa as the paraṁ brahma. How we have change of, "Kṛṣṇa is..."? So first of all we have to accept by the paramparā system. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. That paramparā is now gone, Kṛṣṇa says, therefore I am speaking to you again age-old-system. Not that new. Purāṇa. And now you take. How Arjuna is accepting? Arjuna said, sarvam etad ṛtaṁ manye (BG 10.14). (Hindi) That is not Bhagavad-gītā understanding. You take paramparā system, you try to understand Kṛṣṇa as Arjuna has understood. That is bhakti. Otherwise it is (indistinct). There is no meaning. But if anyone has accepted the paramparā system as Arjuna has understood then he can speak on Bhagavad-gītā. Otherwise he has no right to speak anything. That is paramparā.
Prabhupāda: So to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy job. First of all one has to become siddha. And not only you become siddha, yatatām api siddhānām (BG 7.3), even one is siddha it is very difficult for him to understand-tattvataḥ. What Kṛṣṇa means, to understand, it is not so easy job. And again He said, He explains that bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). Only the devotees can understand. It is not the business of the karmīs, jñānīs, yogis. He has strictly specified-bhaktyā. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si. When He wanted to instruct Arjuna... Arjuna was a householder, a kṣatriya, not even a brāhmaṇa, not a Vedantist. The question may be why He selected Arjuna to preach Bhagavad-gītā which is so (indistinct) and (indistinct). That Kṛṣṇa says bhakto 'si. "Without being bhakta nobody can understand Me." And again He confirms, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If we interpret Bhagavad-gītā in a different way, karma, jñāna, yoga, you'll never get Kṛṣṇa. So these things are there. So to understand Bhagavad-gītā one has to become a devotee, pure devotee. Not because he's learned scholar, he's a big politician or a big yogi or big jñānī. Because He plainly says, bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ (BG 18.55). If you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, tattvataḥ, what He is, then it is natural he'll interpret in his way, his own philosophy. That is not (indistinct). If you take jñāna, yoga, karma, or other.... But it is not possible. You have to receive it through the paramparā system. The paramparā system is clear. As Arjuna understood, you have to take it. And if you preach, that will be effective. I...
Guest: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: So He answers because Arjuna was disturbed on this battlefield, that "How shall I fight with my relatives. I shall kill them. It is not my duty to kill my brothers or my nephews." He was perplexed. So the answer is given in a suitable way, that "You are thinking of killing the body of your brother. But your brother is not the body. And even if you think that your brother is being killed, so your brother, real, your brother, he will get another body." Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). This is the answer. This is self-realization. That "You are very much disturbed on the bodily concepts of life, but your brother is not this body. Even if you so-called killing of your brother, he will live." That is further explained. Next verse.
Girirāja:
- mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
- śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
- āgamāpāyino 'nityās
- tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
- (BG 2.14)
Prabhupāda: So one can say that "Even though it is a fact that my brother is not this body, but still, I see that I am killing the body of my brother. That is painful. How can I kill my brother? That is very painful." So that is, answer is there, that this kind of pain will continue. This is on the body. It is not on the soul. That He's explaining. The point is one, that "Your brother, whom you are calling brother, that you mistakenly you are taking the body of your brother as your brother." So everything is explained. But the point is one. There cannot be many. The same point is being explained in so many varieties of ways. But the point is there.
Prabhupāda: You have to... If you foolishly think that you have become one, that is your foolishness. Yes. That is foolish thinking.
Mr. Malhotra: If I submerge myself with the entire...
Prabhupāda: Merge means you do not disagree. That is merge. Do not disagree. Just like when Arjuna was disagreeing, that is his condition, that is his conditioned identity, and when he agreed, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73),"that is identity of oneness.
Mr. Malhotra: Surrender.
Prabhupāda: Surrender, that is oneness. Not that individually he has become different. Individually he is, but he does not disagree with Kṛṣṇa. That is oneness. Just like we are sitting, we are of different interests. But so far my disciples are, they will not disagree with me. That is oneness. But he is individual. He was individual, he is individual and he will continue his individuality. But as soon as he accepts me as the leader, then he is agreement. That is oneness.
Mr. Malhotra: Agreement with God is surrender.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167). To serve Kṛṣṇa favorably, that is oneness. That is oneness.
Mr. Malhotra: This is bhakti-yoga.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In politics you cannot become...
Guest (1): A sādhu. It is absurd. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: That is absurd.
Guest (1): Two contradictory terms.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Arjuna was ridiculed. "What is this nonsense?" Kutas tvā kaśmalam idam: "You have come to fight. You are talking nonsense, that 'I will not fight.' " Kṛṣṇa did not approve.
Guest (1): He told... He defined "What is your dharma and what is niṣkāma akarma." So it's very difficult to define dharma, but once it is defined, there should be no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: No, dharma is there. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That is dharma. And everything is cheating. That... Because we are teaching that, that only dharma is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, therefore we are not very much liked. They are of opinion, "Why Kṛṣṇa is God? I have got this God. I have got this, so many incarnations." This is...
Guest (2): Why do you say we are not very much liked? The movement is spreading.
Prabhupāda: Because we are fools.
Guest (2): But the movement is spreading, I am saying. I Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is spreading.
Prabhupāda: Movement will spread, undoubtedly, because it is genuine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from... That lesson is there, Bhagavad-gītā. But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa said... Everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā, but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their... All these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there. Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect. So he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said... He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali?
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
So Indians, they can make their life perfect by following this Vedic literature, and they can lead the whole world. This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. First of all you become perfect by taking lessons from the Vedic literature. And then you do good to others. But without making yourself perfect, if you try to do good to others, that is chaos. Then again comes, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Some blind men following another blind man. What will be the result? The present Indians, we have lost our own culture. We have rejected our own culture. Still we are leading people. There is chaotic condition. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to correct this mistake. So leaders like you should cooperate.
Prabhupāda: Which is still continuing, but in a limited circle.
Rādhā-vallabha: "They come from a text which bears the most profound truths ever revealed to mankind. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2)." It's that series of verses. "This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost. That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend. Therefore you can understand the transcendental mystery of this science. Preserved by the invincible tradition of spiritual scholars known as the disciplic succession, these original words spoken by Lord Kṛṣṇa to one of his most intimate devotees were recorded in a book called Bhagavad-gītā, Sanskrit for the 'Song of God.' Today a unique presentation of this ancient classic has aroused keen interest and deep appreciation from leading scholars in diverse disciplines. It was brought to the West by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, who is a living link in the chain of disciplic succession. Bhagavad-gītā, long viewed with awe by many contemporary and early Western thinkers, is not a simple summary of the Hindu faith, although it is the book of truth for some five hundred million people. It is a scientific study of universal, spiritual truths, far above sectarian doctrines and ethnic beliefs. Bhagavad-gītā is a study of the nature and origin of consciousness. Śrīla Prabhupāda, the world's most distinguished scholar of Vedic writings and a true humanitarian, began his labor of love in this tiny room in a temple in one of India's holiest cities, Vṛndāvana." This is when the scene of your working in the Rādhā-Dāmodara room comes on. "Working often throughout the night, Śrīla Prabhupāda painstakingly carried out the request of his spiritual predecessor to bring the message of Bhagavad-gītā to the Western world." Now this is the part that... This will be a recording of you speaking, and it will appear to be you thinking in the display. "Out of many, many human beings, Bhagavad-gītā is directed to the one who seeks to understand his position. The Lord has great mercy for human beings, therefore He spoke the Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, a saintly prince, to enlighten him. Arjuna was actually above ignorance, but he was put into ignorance on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra just to ask about the meaning of life so that our mission of life can be perfected.' " So Bharadvāja wants to know if you could say this one into a microphone so he could use it in the display. (end)
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be.
Dr. Patel: Who taught Sanskrit to...
Prabhupāda: No, no. He has interpreted Bhagavad-gītā, patient and physician.
Dr. Patel: Patient and physician. That may be this Reilly then. He was the dean of one of the medical colleges.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So he has written that Kṛṣṇa is the physician and Arjuna is the patient. And he has interpreted in that way. There are 645 like that, this, what is called, unauthoritative commentaries. Without touching the spirit of Bhagavad-gītā.
Dr. Patel: Best commentary is the Bhagavad-gītā itself. It needs no commentary. It is so simple to understand. Man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ.
Prabhupāda: And commentary, interpretation required when you cannot understand. It is very easy and still these rogues will exploit and mislead people. This is... And perhaps, this is the first time I am pointing out. Before that nobody did.
Dr. Patel: And you wrote I have read your commentary twice and it has become very harsh on those people.
Prabhupāda: I must be. They are doing wrong thing. They are doing great harm to the... They are misleading the... If I become little more powerful, I shall do it more harshly. I did not show because I was non-entity. But I knew it. Now people are taking me little seriously, I am talking. (break) In the beginning I thought, Who will hear me? Better wait for the time. Therefore I wrote Mahatma Gandhi, that "Now you have got your svarāja. Please come, let us preach Bhagavad-gītā. You have..." If he would have given the chance at that time, then long ago this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement would have been started.
Indian man: He had only anāsakti-yoga.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: That is the fact, we know. We know that is a fact, that... My point is that the modern age, they are very much proud of advanced technology. So where is that knowledge? And why people do not tax their brains to get this knowledge? This is very important subject matter. But where is that knowledge? And why they do not try to do it? We get information from the Supreme Personality of Godhead that this jīva, the driver... Not driver. The passenger. We are passenger, and driver is God, and machine made by material energy, māyā... Yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. The similarity is there. Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by māyā. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati bhrāmāyan (BG 18.61). Bhrāmāyan, the driver, the passenger of the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same—Arjuna is asking Kṛṣṇa, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta: (BG 1.21) "Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. That he's also kṣetrajñā. Kṣetra is this body, and kṣetrajñā one knows, this body.... Just like I know it is my finger. I never say, "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons, one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor.... And the body is machine. The subjects are there. Why you do not try to understand the subject matter? Then where is your advancement? That is my challenge. Why you are so much proud of your advancement of knowledge. What is this knowledge? Tell me. You are young man. I am giving you the challenge. Either you admit that you are not advanced or make advancement. Why you set aside this difficult subject matter and become proud by making a small machine that you are advanced? Where is your advancement? (Hindi) He is Mr. Bajaj, the proprietor of the Bajaj Electricity.
Prabhupāda: "So whatever the cause, but you have no brain. Cause may be so many things. But you have no brain to understand the simple truth. Where is your brain? So this movement is not brainwashing. Brain-giving. You have no brain." Therefore śāstra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Animal has no brain. They say animal has no soul, but that's not the fact. Animal has no brain. Otherwise, all anatomical, physical, physiological conditions are there. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna. But they have no brain. They cannot understand what is the difference between dead man and living man. That is the distinction between man and animal. But if you cannot understand, then where is your brain? On this point. Actually he has no brain. Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). That was the point Arjuna was chastised, that "You rascal, you have no brain. You are lamenting on this body and talking like very learned man." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś ca... (BG 2.11). The whole world is going on like that. They're talking like very big scientist, big philosopher, very big, big, big, but real thing they do not know. "So where is your brain?" Challenge them like that. "You cannot answer. You are big, big scientist, putting forward, 'by combination of chemical...' So why don't you combine the chemical and give the dead man to become alive? Where is your brain? You simply say 'combination of chemical,' but you take the chemicals and combine, then we can understand you have got brain. That you cannot do, falsely taking prestigious position that you have got brain. Actually you have no brain. Cheating people." Write articles on this. They have no brain at all. (Bengali) In India there is a prejudice that you should not lie down putting your head towards northern side. Whatever truth may be, one man was asked that "Don't keep your head toward northern side." So he answered, "Where is my head? The head is already cut off." So these people are like that. They are making propaganda of "brainwash," but where is your brain? Challenge them, "Where is your brain?" Cannot answer this simple thing. "Where is your brain?" Write a strong letter on this point and try to publish it. "If there is brain, there is question of washing or doing something else. But where is your brain? You have no brain." (aside:) What is that?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very foolish. Somehow, though, it seems that if we remain true to everything you've taught and remain true to Bhagavad-gītā and to Kṛṣṇa, that somehow we can counteract the entire world of atheists. Seems possible.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This movement is so powerful, this message is so pure, that it seems that no matter how big the opposition is, still, it can conquer. We can be victorious. Arjuna was victorious. There's a wonderful statement in the beginning... You make this... It's stated in the Tenth Canto. Parīkṣit Mahārāja is appreciating Arjuna, and he's saying, "How, how could he defeat such gigantic...?" He's comparing to the ocean the battlefield. He says, "Bhīṣma, such a big fish..."
Prabhupāda: Timiṅgila.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: In the ocean there are fishes. You cannot see them. Big fishes: (makes gulping sound). From the skeleton I saw in Calcutta Museum...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whale skeleton?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whales.
Prabhupāda: Whale or some fish skeleton. As big as this room, it was hanging. I think it is there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, in the Museum of Natural History in New York they have a whale that is at least twice the length of this room.
Prabhupāda: Dog is also doing that. Is he householder? Taking care of children, the dog is also doing that. So is he householder? First of all, you do not know what is meant by householder. Taking care of children, that is done by the birds. In the nest the small kiddies are there, and they are bringing food and pushing in the mouth, (makes bird noise:) "Tee, tee, tee, tee, tee." Are they householder? And if you think they are householder, you are also householder like the dogs and birds. You do not know what is householder. Therefore you have to consult śāstra, who is a householder. Śāstra says, pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum: "You should not become a father and mother unless you take the responsibility for children that no more birth." Because this is the problem, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). If you are so able father and mother that you can stop this miserable condition of your children, then you become householder. That is householder. Otherwise what is the use of becoming a householder like dogs and cats? There is no use. There are so many cats and dogs. What is use of increasing? Now government is forcing: "Do not produce cats and dogs. Take these inhibitions(?)." Because the whole world is fed up with these cats and dogs householders. Real householder is, śāstra says, "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot protect your children..." Samupeta-mṛtyum. And they are required. If you can do that, then you are welcome. You can produce hundreds of children. But you cannot protect yourself; how you'll be able to protect your children? All bogus. Householder is allowed, as brahmacārī-āśrama, gṛhastha-āśrama. It is not meant that... Big, big personality were householder. Lord Rāmacandra was householder. Arjuna was householder. Prahlāda Mahārāja was a householder. Janaka Mahārāja was householder. But they were not cats and dogs. So be householder. You do the duty of real householder. Don't become cats and dogs. Then where is human civili...? What is the distinct between cats and dogs and human civilization if you do the same thing? Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithuna.
Prabhupāda: Mayā te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ purātanaḥ. Now, Kṛṣṇa never said, although in Bhagavad-gītā yoga is spoken by Him, He never said that "Because now time has passed away, circumstance different, so I can say you in any way." There is no such foolishness. But these people, they speak Bhagavad-gītā in a new way—more than Kṛṣṇa. These rascals are more than Kṛṣṇa. So we are guided by them. They think of themselves as more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. This is the difficulty in India. (Hindi) Vyāsadeva says, bhagavān uvāca. (Hindi) Unnecessarily if one is proud without any qualification, he's a rascal. (Hindi) Or this is also said there, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si me (BG 4.3). The system of Bhagavad-gītā, it can be understood only by the bhaktas. Otherwise why He should select Arjuna as the perfect audience? Because Arjuna was not a Vedantist. He was gṛhastha, belonging to royal family. He was dealing in politics. So the so-called Vedantists and sannyāsīs, they are supposed to be student of Bhagavad-gītā, but Kṛṣṇa selected him not because he was a Vedantist... He was not even brāhmaṇa. He was kṣatriya, politician, gṛhastha, not Vedantist, ordinary knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa selected him. (aside:) Hm, don't do it.
Indian man (1): He was bhakta and sakha.
Prabhupāda: No, you feel. That is another thing. You can feel so many things. That is not authorized. But if you are searching after that one, here is the one. That is accepted by the all authorities and ācāryas. And He showed His viśva-rūpa, virāḍ-rūpa, that everything is there. Practically Arjuna was shown the virāḍ-rūpa. So why don't you accept Him? What is your objection?
German man (1): I have no objection.
Prabhupāda: Then why don't you accept?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then why don't you accept?
German man (1): I accept. Right when I got into Gītā, I start to read it and I start to follow, I tried to follow.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
German man (1): I had to do.
Prabhupāda: Then it is all right.
German man (1): I have no (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Patitānāṁ pāvanebhyaḥ. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, tāra sākṣī jagāi-mādhāi, brajendra-nandana jei, śaci-suta hoilo sei. Kṛṣṇa is coming. He has come as Caitanya Mahāprabhu to deliver these pāpīs and tāpīs. Whole process is scientific. It is not (laughs) the Ramakrishna, Vivekananda. It is not that. What do they know? Or Gandhi. They are also trying for the betterment, but they do not accept the standard process. Everyone is trying. That is struggle for existence. So who is fittest? The fittest is the devotee. He'll survive. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma (BG 4.9). I have now explained how Kṛṣṇa became subordinate to devotee. (turns on dictaphone, plays back from tape:) "Yamarāja, controller of all living entities, is afraid of the order of Kṛṣṇa. Still, Kṛṣṇa is afraid of mother's stick. This contradictory thing cannot be understood by one who is not devotee. Devotee can understand how much powerful is unalloyed devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, so much so He can be controlled by such devotee. Bhṛtya-vaśyata. That means under the control of the servant, but He is under the control of pure love by the servant. In the Bhagavad-gītā also, we see, Kṛṣṇa became the chariot driver of Arjuna. Arjuna is ordering Him, senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me acyuta (BG 1.21). Here Kṛṣṇa has agreed... (break) '...my chariot...' (break) '...to execute my order. Place my chariot between the two party soldiers.' Kṛṣṇa immediately executed his order. One may argue in this connection that Kṛṣṇa is also not independent. This is ajñāna, ignorance. Kṛṣṇa is fully independent. When He becomes subordinate to the devotees He is ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Humor of transcendental qualities increases transcendental pleasure. One who worships Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore sometimes desires to be controlled by somebody controller. Nobody else... (break) ...pure devotee." (end of tape playback section) Everyone worships Him as the Supreme, but sometimes He desires, "Somebody will control over."
Prabhupāda: I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting personal guidance from my Guru Mahārāja.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "Arjuna was a great, powerful devotee, and he could overcome the shock. But we are most fallen and cannot endure such a shock of having you leave us. We are already mortified by such a thought. Your movement is just now being accepted, and we want you to remain to lead all your devotees towards successful spiritual life. Despite our offenses, all of us deeply have great love for Your Divine Grace, and our world will become dark without your presence. Materially you have provided all of your devotees with everything: big temples, money, prestige, and honor, nice prasādam." (chuckles) That's not material. "But I would relish more being with you without all of these things..." He says, "But personally I would relish more being with you without all of these things, as we began at 26 Second Avenue. Simply hearing you chant and talk for hours is my only solace. I don't want anything else. We left all these material things to be with you only, so please have mercy with your devotees by allowing us to have your personal appearance as long as..."
Prabhupāda: He was from very beginning. Brahmānanda. He has worked very hard from the beginning.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says "I may also come to cook and clean for you."
Prabhupāda: Yes, you are welcome.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "If you so desire. And carry you also."
| Page Title: | Arjuna was... (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 27 of Apr, 2013 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=121, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 121 |