Rāmeśvara: Now, sometimes in our mantra page in the beginning of the magazine we have photographs of people who are not living in our temples but who have been induced to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa—sometimes parents of devotees...
Prabhupāda: So these things can be discussed. Of course, I could not read. Those who have pointed out the defects, so let them come and then discuss.
Rāmeśvara: No, if there's some defect, it must be corrected.
Prabhupāda: So... No...
Rāmeśvara: But if it can be done without...
Prabhupāda: Whatever is there... They have pointed out some defect, so in the presence of them you discuss. Then I shall give my decision.
Hari-śauri: That should be done in front of Your Divine Grace?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: They should all come?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So, Satsvarūpa, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa, you have said?
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He's also. He has also pointed out... So altogether. Pros and cons.
Rāmeśvara: One point that was felt, not the specific defect, but a very general point, is that this magazine is being distributed by the hundreds of thousands to very ordinary people who go shopping in stores, housewives and so on.
Prabhupāda: No, still, we cannot make it a shopkeeper's magazine.
Rāmeśvara: No, of course, but the tone of the magazine, we felt, should be such that they can also feel that it is...
Prabhupāda: They may not feel. That cannot be.
Rāmeśvara: That is their thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Gold must be presented as gold. One may not be able to purchase. You cannot... To sell, you cannot make, adulterate gold with iron.
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is not.
Rāmeśvara: What about the idea that "You do not have to move into a temple, give up your family and everything, but you can actually chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in your own home," that idea that "It is available to you..."
Prabhupāda: No, that chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa does not mean whimsical.
Rāmeśvara: No.
Prabhupāda: Offenseless, he must be properly initiated. It does not mean that he should not be initiated and chant. That is not the idea. You can... Must be initiated, either you are a gṛhastha or sannyāsī or brahmacārī. Not that without being initiated you'll whimsically chant and the effect will be the same. No. You must be initiated. Ādau gurvāśrayam. You must accept a guru.
Rāmeśvara: If you want to sell some product, you may make so many claims, and then the public will buy. So sometimes we quote these psychologists who have done studies that "If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there are some good effects."
Prabhupāda: Good there is undoubtedly. If you eat something, there will be some effect of eating. But if it is properly eaten, properly made, it will be, have better effect. That is the idea.
Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that something is better than nothing.
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: If you advertise the mahā-mantra gives some material benefit, isn't that an offense?
Prabhupāda: Then that is aparādha.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is aparādha.
Hari-śauri: One of the ten offenses.
Rāmeśvara: 'Cause sometimes when we interview these people who are chanting, they speak from their own realization, and it is not exactly the version of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it is not..., but it is their own realization, whatever little bit they have realized.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They may chant, but they must understand that the chanting process, that will be more effective. That they must know. Chanting is open. Anyone can chant, but they must know it, that "If I chant in the proper process, then it will be effective."
Rāmeśvara: It must be clear to them that the goal is love of God, not something material.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Premā pum-artho mahān. That is wanted. There is one word by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, nāmākṣara bahir haya nāma nāhi haya: "The... Simply the alphabets are coming, but that is not nāma." Nāmākṣara, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the alphabets, are coming out, but it is not the holy name.
Rāmeśvara: Suppose someone says that Caitanya Mahāprabhu has given freely this holy name with no rules and regulations... (break)
Brahmānanda: We wanted to make a distinction that a nondevotee chanting is different from when a pure devotee chants.
Rāmeśvara: So that distinction should be there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that somehow this magazine...
Prabhupāda: No, another thing, it is aparādha... Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. Unless he is in the process he'll think, "I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, so whatever sinful activities I am..., it will be controlled."
Brahmānanda: That's the worst offense.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very bad offense.
Hari-śauri: So we're actually advertising the process of devotional service, not just simply haphazard chanting.
Prabhupāda: First of all we are chanting just to make him little attracted. Ādau śraddhā.
Rāmeśvara: Just to popularize it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. Then, if the heart is little cleansed, then they will understand. It will be effective, but when it is done properly it will give real effect. Outsider, those who are chanting, we don't discourage him.
Rāmeśvara: We want then to chant more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we must... They must know the science also.
Rāmeśvara: Just like this Alice Coltrane. She has done her small part. She made this record album with Govinda Jaya Jaya and Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is... That will be a good thing. But when he (she) does it properly it will be more effective, because there is... If one does not chant in the process, then gradually it degrades. The offense will increase. There is chance.
Rāmeśvara: So in the past, in the magazine, we have only shown people chanting if they were initiated devotees, shaven-headed, living in temple. And recently they have adopted to show people who have jobs outside the movement, and they are not brahmacārī or sannyāsī. They're also chanting, to give the public the idea that...
Prabhupāda: So that we are giving, the facility to chant and take prasādam, but at the same time, gradually, if chanting is effective, then next we have to make it in the process.
Brahmānanda: We want to bring them to the process.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the ultimate. That is stated by Rūpa Gosvāmī,
- yena tena prakāreṇa
- manaḥ kṛṣṇe niveśayet
- sarve vidhi-niṣedhā syur
- etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ
that "Somehow or other, bring him to chant Kṛṣṇa or to become little Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then, when he's little purified, then the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ..." He's not rejecting the vidhi-niṣedhāḥ. Vidhi-niṣedhāḥ means regulative principles. It is not rejected, that... But when he's a little purified, this vidhi-niṣedhā syur etayor eva kiṅkarāḥ. Just like one... First of all let him become rich, get some money. And then, when he has got money, he can keep some servant, some assistant, some secretaries, like that. First of all earn money.
Rāmeśvara: So one step at a time.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But organized business means there must be so many men, secretary, manager. That is regulated. So in the beginning, "All right, bring some money somehow. Then I shall..." So you cannot reject this organization because he's chanting. Then what is the use of writing so many books, the nāma-aparādha and other discussions, if anyone can chant?
Rāmeśvara: So it definitely has to lead them to that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we must come to that point. In the beginning you may be very liberal: "All right, chant." We do like that, and I have done it. There is no regulation. But that does not..., that it should be neglected. He should be given affirmed, "By simply, whimsically chanting this..." No, that is not.
Hari-śauri: Niyamāgraha.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't make it cheap. It has got a science. It has got a form.
Rāmeśvara: I've seen in some articles they have written to defend our society from the attack of deprogrammers, sometimes one argument they give is that meditation and chanting are being studied by scientists, and they are finding the effects to be good. Now...
Prabhupāda: Effect will be good. And if we do it properly it will be first class.