Expressions researched:
"agree"
|"agreeances"
|"agreed"
|"agreeing"
|"agrees"
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Prajāpati: And she has... I guess she has agreed to...
Nara-nārāyaṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, she is very nice, good artist. Give her engagement like this.
Prajāpati: Maybe you could explain us a little more detail of the...
Prabhupāda: No, with very much detail it will be cumbrous. You... Symbolic representation.
Prajāpati: Those three figures in the center?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prajāpati: One is a devotee, one is a...
Prabhupāda: No, everyone is devotee.
Candanācārya: No, I mean. Instead of praying to demigods to give me something, saying, "Whatever you decide Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. No. A devotee never prays to Kṛṣṇa. They have to undergo so much trouble; still they never pray to Kṛṣṇa. They know that "Kṛṣṇa will give us ultimately protection. Let us do our duty." Tat te 'nukampāṁ susamīkṣamāṇaḥ (SB 10.14.8). When a devotee is in difficulty, he is not disturbed. He thinks, It is Kṛṣṇa's wish that I should suffer like like this. It is not suffering; it is my pleasure." Just like when a patient is undergoing surgical operation, there is pain, but he knows, "It is better for me." Therefore agrees, "Yes sir. You go on with your knife." So when you are surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa says that "I shall give you protection," so even in our distressed condition we must know that we are being protected by Kṛṣṇa. We should not be disturbed. Because we create so-called distress and happiness. Actually this world is distress. Here the so-called happiness is also distress.
Prabhupāda: They agree. Then automatically, slaughterhouse will be closed. If there is no customer for meat, then slaughterhouse will be closed. Just like Gandhi started this movement, non-cooperation, "Don't cooperate with the British government." That was his... Because the Britishers were ruling India with the cooperation of the Indians. Otherwise, how they could rule? The soldiers were Indian, the police were Indian, the secretariat, office, clerks, they were Indians—all Indians. But they manufactured in such a way that they were cooperating. So Gandhi took the route that "You non-cooperate; then the Britishers will automatically go away." That was his movement. Similarly, if we educate public that "You must find out a leader who is free from these sinful activities. Then you will be happy. And you also give up. Otherwise, how you will be able to select such a leader?" This should be our real propaganda. Otherwise they will think that "They're against our real joyful life. So these men are useless." You have to explain that "If these things, sinful activities, you prolong, then you cannot become happy."
Prabhupāda: Suppose I am writing books. In future if you could not find my bones and fossils, but the books will prove what I was. So we have got the books. That is the real bones and fossils.
Bali Mardana: They try to disprove...
Prabhupāda: They cannot find out bones and fossils of Kṛṣṇa. Now, why they accept?
Satsvarūpa: Nobody agreed... (tape garbled)
Prabhupāda: You have to accept authority... (break) ...authority of yourself, we have got authority also. We have got authority. We have got our books... (break) ...that Kali-yuga has begun five thousand years but you say they do not believe in... (break) ...these rascals. Although it is history... (end)
Prabhupāda: Very good. He's(?) good boy.
Śyāmasundara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have a question.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Śyāmasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Then what is that purpose? What is Kṛṣṇa's purpose?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is living force. He has got different purpose.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Don't say that Kṛṣṇa has only one purpose, that only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Kṛṣṇa says you do it.
Prabhupāda: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gītā he said "Yes, I shall do that." So long I deny Kṛṣṇa that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Kṛṣṇa, yes." Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Kṛṣṇa is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Kṛṣṇa says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Kṛṣṇa, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Kṛṣṇa's existence, always will be.
Prabhupāda: No, our point is not that, just to bring them and proselytize them to Hinduism. No. Take prasādam, take dress, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance. That's all. I never said to all these European and American disciples that "You become a Hindu." I never said. Ask them. I never said.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Neither we would have agreed.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I ask them to be? I asked them, "Just become lover of God. That's all. If you can love God through your religion, that's all right. You do that." I said that. I never said that "You become Hindu." Then I would not have been able to...
Dr. Patel: I think that they must understand, sir, that Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Religion is a Vedic religion, which is common to Christianity. I would say that Jesus Christ has taught the Vedic religion to the Middle East and to the heathens and he was crucified because the heathens were not able to understand him properly. That is what my, I mean, convictions, strong conviction is that Jesus had actually preached Hinduism, I mean Vedic religion there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was...
Prabhupāda: That is real vision.
Dr. Patel: Hamare (Hindi) He is agreeing to start a school for you in Sanskrit and Hindi. Eh?
Girirāja: Yes. We also agree.
Dr. Patel: So find out men, so long that Mahārāja Sāheb is here.
Prabhupāda: (to someone walking) Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: One man is coming today.
Dr. Patel: Then let him start, right earnest, and I will be the student along with him. I want to replace my all Sanskrit knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, Sanskrit knowledge, whatever you have got, that is sufficient for understanding. We don't require to be a Sanskrit scholar.
Prabhupāda: The same example. Suppose by promotion, you come to a very nice post, but if you do not behave well, then you are degraded.
Guest (1): No, that I agree, Swamiji, ke admi yo he, karenge (?), they will go back as human beings. But (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: But, bhāla (Hindi)
Guest (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Now, why, why don't you understand.
Mr. Sar: Chance is given to you...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So how Caitanya Mahāprabhu treated them equally or gave better position to Rāmānanda Rāya than Rūpa Gosvāmī? This question was raised—not only now—when our Guru Mahārāja started Gauḍīya Maṭha. So he was allowing the sannyāsīs to live in palatial building and go in car for preaching work. So many such persons questioned, "How is that, sannyāsīs are going in car, living in palatial building?" So our Guru Mahārāja replied that "A devotee should be offered the best comfort of life. And if he would not have introduced this comfortable life, at the same time, to become pure devotee, then these devotees from Western countries will, would never come. They would never agree to sit down under the tree and, imitating Rūpa Gosvāmī... That is not possible." Do you understand or not?
Guest (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: They must be given, as far as possible, their western type of comforts and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (1): And they're born and brought up in this...
Prabhupāda: They have sacrificed so much for me. They are ready to lie down under the tree. But it is my duty to see they are, as far as possible, they're comfortably situated. That is my duty. They can agree to live in any condition.
Guest (2): Gargamuni said me like this one day, and myself and one of the devotees went to draw the ration from the river in the distance, two miles off. And the devotee's saying, "We'll go by the car." And "Let us go by the rickshaw."
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do like that.
Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.
Prabhupāda: Buddha is Kṛṣṇa, that I know, but the...
Guest: So that if you...
Prabhupāda: ...those who Buddhist, they do not know. They do not know. We know, but they do not know. Neither they agree to believe.
Guest: So that if you're aware of Buddha, then you're aware...
Prabhupāda: But you should talk from the platform of Buddha. We know the secrecy. Our, our understanding of Buddha, that he is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. But the Buddhists, they do not believe.
Guest: No, they've rejected the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But we say.
Bhāgavata: But Duryodhana would not admit.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bhāgavata: Even though Kṛṣṇa showed His universal form, Duryodhana still did not agree.
Prabhupāda: No, Duryodhana also agreed. All of them got salvation. That is mentioned. Anyone who was in the Battle of Kurukṣetra, all of them got salvation. By their being killed in the battle, they all got liberation and salvation. That is stated by Bhīṣmadeva. Svarūpa. Svarūpa means they came to their original Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break) (Hindi conversation continues for some time) Materially to get bācche (children) you require the help of husband, but spiritually you don't require anyone's help. In Kṛṣṇa only. That's all. (end)
Prabhupāda: So that is to be decided by the court.
Guest: Therefore... I'm coming on that. What I say on the prima facie, the nuisance is not there. Number two ground, about that traffic objection, it is always a practice in Bombay, if there is objection, of traffic department, in that arranged, in that party which has agreed, in the person or the body which has made the proposal for the temple, is to be called, and they are to stand on the side and find how the traffic is going. There is an example about this near here, this bandstand at Chowpatti. One of my relations, he wanted to have a theater there. The position was not granted by the traffic department. But in that way the traffic department had, before deciding the issue, had to call those people who had purchased the plot for a theater purpose and convince them that this traffic will be a block and will be a bottleneck and it will be difficult for the police to control it. And theater, at every time, every three hours, you have particular four thousand or five thousand or two thousand people entering in the theater and going out also. Here the same problem is not there. Therefore the police or the traffic department has been biased and deliberately, for their own ulterior motive, they have taken this type of position, without involving us. If I am guilty, I must be told that I am a guilty man. They should prove in my presence. So no chance was given to me. Nothing was, I was not invited at the spot where the traffic was a bottleneck problem for the future. Without any justification, merely one sentence that "It could be." And if you will read their letter, they have not committed that certainly it will be a traffic problem. They said, "may be." If you see the reading, wording of their letter, they said, "It may be a traffic problem." They were not positive in their statement by saying that "This will be a traffic problem." This "shall be," or this "will" word, is not mentioned. It "may be." That means the option is equally open: "May not be," also. That's only (indistinct) has been taken without any basis of policy.
Prabhupāda: That is your second item.
Prabhupāda: That is...
Dr. Patel: I don't dictate!
Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it should be given to the poor man. You say like that. (break) The spiritual food should be distributed to everyone, without any discrimination.
Dr. Shah: To everyone, without any discrimination! (break)
Prabhupāda: It is meant for spiritual understanding.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That I agree.
Prabhupāda: Prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāṁ hanir asyopajāyate. So anyone who is spiritually poor, he should be given prasādam. It doesn't matter... (break) That, that makes it clear. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu means there is no discrimination... (end)
Guest (1): That is very correct.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That was his satisfaction. But Kṛṣṇa wanted that "You must fight." And when he agreed to that, that is his perfection. Before that, he was trying to satisfy he.
Guest (1): Yes. When he surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, that was his...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only purpose of life. Anything that is done, that is useless waste of time. Therefore Kṛṣṇa particularly said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vra... (BG 18.66). That is ekam. You try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa only. That will give you perfection. Otherwise your own satisfaction, that's all.
Guest (1): Yes, very correct, very correct.
Prabhupāda: Whatever you do, that is your satisfaction. That is karma.
Dr. Patel: What Vyāsadeva says. Different ācāryas' interpretation...
Prabhupāda: No, no. There is no interpretation. How can you interpret?
Indian man (2): (break) ...follow ācārya. You see... (break)
Prabhupāda: Ācārya means not foolishly.
Indian man (2): Foolishly? There should be rational outlook. Yes, I agree with you. There should be rational outlook about all these things, and then, you see...
Prabhupāda: Vyāsadeva says, Vyāsadeva says that, in his all writing, oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya.
Indian man (2): That is all right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.
Indian man (2): Śivo 'ham. Śivo 'ham.
Prabhupāda: Śivo 'ham is another thing.
Prabhupāda: It is not religion. Of course it is religion. But the religion, as it is misunderstood in European countries that religion is a kind of faith, but it is not like that. It is science. It is fact. Religion, you have got some faith. That may not be right. It may be wrong. Just like the Christian religion, they have got faith in this way, that animal has no soul. Do you know that?
Italian Man (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's not a fact. Do you agree or not?
Italian Man (1): I do.
Prabhupāda: Animal also has soul.
Italian Man (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Why do they disagree, that animal has no soul? What is the point? Why do they say?
Italian Man (1): Because they don't like to identify themselves with animals. Because if they admit that animals have a soul, then they have to identity, means they are afraid of identifying with animals. They feel they are superior to animals. We are superior to animals, indeed, but...
Prabhupāda: That is by intelligence. We are superior to animals by superior intelligence, not by... Just like a human child. His father is superior than the child because the father has got superior intelligence, not that the child has no soul. The child talks so many nonsense things, but we take it, "After all, it is child." Nobody cares whether it is symmetrical or not, because his intelligence is not developed. So even the animals have no developed intelligence, that does not mean it has no soul. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Well, first of all try to understand what is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Then you try to understand the philosophy. It is simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says that annād bhavanti parjanyāt. So there is no need of dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy. You require anna to maintain the animals and living men. Practically. Dvaita philosophy and advaita philosophy, this is controversial. But even though we agree to dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy, the question of food grain will be required, either you become dvaita philosophy or advaita philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in one moment, if you agree. Kṛṣṇa says that
We change our body on account of sinful activities, but if we surrender to Kṛṣṇa and take Kṛṣṇa consciousness, immediately you are on the spiritual platform.
As soon as you become unalloyed devotee of Kṛṣṇa, you immediately transcend this material platform. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. You remain in the spiritual platform. And if you die in the spiritual platform, then you go to the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: Building is not very important. Work is important. Activity is important. I started my movement not with buildings, but real activity. So building is opulence. You can do without opulence. You can start anything, even underneath a tree. There is no difficulty. (break) They will allow our men?
Mahāṁsa: I went. They did not ask any questions.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of asking, but is there any hint from their side?
Mahāṁsa: I have not heard that they, Tirumali, they refuse foreigners.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. (break) So far reporters, they agree that others have no right to comment on this. (end)
Prabhupāda: Associated Press, something like that. Bombay's first-class press. (break) ...They are not coming to us.
Satsvarūpa: (break) ...but they would rather be non-devotees than work all day. They can say they are free.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I offered that, that "What is this two thousand, 2,500 per month? Oh we can earn at any moment two thousand. So you become devotee; I excuse you of rent." They are not agreeing. (break) ...like an ass simply for sense gratification. Therefore it is warned in the Bhāgavatam, nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kāṣṭān kāmān arhati (SB 5.5.1). (break) ...to respect the Vaiṣṇava, to water tulasī, and this aśvattha tree. These are bhakti items.
Nitāi: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
Girirāja: Another thing we were discussing yesterday is that in Goloka there are no demons.
Prabhupāda: No. There cannot be any demons. Then how it is Vaikuṇṭha? Vaikuṇṭha means without any anxiety. So the situation of anxiety is created by the demons. Therefore, when Kṛṣṇa wants to fight, He has to come down here because there is no question of fighting. There is no chance of fighting. Everyone is devotee. A devotee will never agree. But they will agree Kṛṣṇa's fight, but here, in this field.
Girirāja: But the sentiment of anxiety or fear for Kṛṣṇa, is that sentiment in Goloka?
Prabhupāda: No. There is no such thing. That is separation. Just like gopīs, they are full of anxiety: "Oh, Kṛṣṇa has gone to the pasturing ground." Their anxiety is there. Just like Rukmiṇī, she was thinking, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa may not give me up. He is talking in this way." She fainted. So anxiety is there. So the anxiety is that one may not be separated from Kṛṣṇa. That is the anxiety. And actually there is no separation, but the feeling of separation out of ecstatic love. Just like one who has got love for the other person, beloved, he always thinks like that, "My beloved may not be separated from me." This is ecstasy of love.
Indian man (2): I told him about the drafts, you see, that you made the other day. I said, "Prabhupāda has only agreed. It was so magnanimous of him, so magnanimous."
Prabhupāda: Yes, I told you Friday, you write, I shall sign it. And why they are agitating and stopped such a function? And that is very regrettable. Gosvāmī means vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegaṁ viṣaheta. If there is some krodha, you should tolerate. Now here is a Vaiṣṇava, he has done so much for Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and the reception was there, and he stopped. How he is gosvāmī? He expressed his krodha in that very moment, just to take retaliation. It is not gosvāmī. What do you think? Krodha-vegam. It is a krodha, but he could not tolerate that krodha-vegam. He retaliated at the right moment and to a person, fit person who was to be honored. Just see. And he claims to be gosvāmī. The first business is vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegam. The Vaikuṇṭha mentality is that if one is serving—I have read it in Bhāgavata—Kṛṣṇa better than somebody else, he would simply appreciate that "Kṛṣṇa has so much favored him. Oh, how fortunate he is. When I shall be able?" That is Vaikuṇṭha mentality. And the material mentality is, "Oh, he has advanced so much. How to come down him?" That is material. This is the difference between Vaikuṇṭha mentality. So his business is how to come down. So he is not a gosvāmī. At least I will not accept. What do you think? Am I right or wrong?
Prabhupāda: What they will debate? If they debate like rascal, that is another thing. If they debate like sane man, then there cannot be any difference of opinion. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So what is your debate on this point, that living entities, they flourish by food grains? So what is your debate on this point?
Yogeśvara: Well, they may agree that the teachings are good, but they can't accept it as proof that Kṛṣṇa was God.
Prabhupāda: Well, then you have to give me definition of God. What is God? If you know God, then you can say that "Kṛṣṇa is not God." Otherwise, how you can say He is not God? I give you a piece of gold: If you say, "It is not gold," then you show me what is gold. Otherwise, you are talking nonsense. If you do not know the things as it is, how you can say, "It is not this"? If you know the positive, then you can say the negative.
Prabhupāda: Just see. That was in India also, that Kaṁsa's wrestling with Kṛṣṇa. Yes.
Yogeśvara: Was that to the death?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It comes automatically to death. Although it is not meant. Nobody will agree that "I am defeated." Therefore death. There must be death. What is this building?
Dhanañjaya: This is a mock mountain-top for the goats and for other wild animals.
Prabhupāda: Oh, this is artificial?
Dhanañjaya: Artificial.
Yogeśvara: There's one. There's a goat. (end)
Richard Webster: Oh, yes. I agree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. Literatures are also, authentic literatures... Śrutayaḥ means authentic literature, which is acceptable. They are also various type. Just like Vedas. There are four Vedas: Sāma-Veda, Yajur-Veda, Atharva-Veda, Ṛg-Veda. Then the Upaniṣads are there. Then the Vedānta-sūtra is there. So if we study all this Vedic literature or any other similar literature, it is very difficult to find out the Absolute Truth. Śrutayo vibhinnaḥ. And if we take the philosophers, so one philosopher differs from another philosopher. Na cāsāv ṛṣir yasya mataṁ na bhinnam. Therefore, to approach the Absolute Truth, God, is very difficult subject matter. Therefore our principle is mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ (CC Madhya 17.186). Mahājana means the recognized persons, recognized by the Supreme Lord, such persons we follow. We have got a list of recognized persons, just like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, the Manu.
Richard Webster: Well, I don't know about that, you see. I'm only...
Prabhupāda: No, there have been so many charges against president Nixon. So no, whatever it may be, we are not concerned. But this is the Vedic principle, that the king or the executive head of the state, the brāhmaṇa and the public leader must be very clean. Otherwise society will be spoiled. That is the injunction.
Richard Webster: Yes, well, of course, I agree.
Prabhupāda: At the present moment there is all over the world... We are touring all over the world. It is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful, self-controlled, mind and the senses, and then tolerant, very simple life, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body, there are four divisions. The head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People, advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another.
Richard Webster: Well, I agree with you.
Prabhupāda: These boys, although they are young men, they will never go to cinema. They are young men. They have got all propensities. But they are so elevated, they have given up all these low propensities, going to the club, restaurant, and cinema or naked dance and this and that, no. Because they are first-class men, they cannot indulge in the third-class, fourth-class proclivities. We are training them in that way. That is required.
Richard Webster: Well, yes, you said restaurants.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Richard Webster: Is it that it depends on the restaurant or is that necessarily bad?
Prabhupāda: Yes, our principle is that we can eat only what is offered to God. So we cannot eat things in the restaurant because it is not offered to God. We may prepare nice things for Kṛṣṇa and offer to Him. Then we take. This is our principle. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña. Yajña means worshiping the Lord. So worship the Lord, it is not difficult. Everyone is cooking for eating, every home. So cook certain things which is acceptable to Kṛṣṇa. Then offer to Him and take the prasāda. There is no difficulty. But you become purified. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Because willfully or not willingly, we are committing so many sins.
Richard Webster: Yes, well, I wholly agree with that.
Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything...
Richard Webster: I entirely agree with that.
Prabhupāda: ...whimsically. It is not possible. Tena eva sa ucyate. If anyone does whimsically, then he becomes immediately thief. So you are a big philosopher. Kindly you spread...
Richard Webster: Very small philosopher.
Prabhupāda: No, that's all right. Anyway, if you spread this God consciousness, this knowledge of God consciousness, philosophy of God consciousness...
Richard Webster: Yes, well, I'm going to write an article on that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Monsignor Verrozano: What do you think about this...
Prabhupāda: No. Man is supposed to be elevated position, how to love God. Animals cannot make (break) ...any distinction between a human being and animal. That is really the symptom of God, that sarva-yoniṣu... Just like if I am obedient son of my father, how can I neglect one son who is very stupid? Rather, if I say to my father, "Father, this son is stupid. He does not bring any service. So please allow me to cut his head," the father will never agree. The father, either a stupid son or very intelligent son, he is kind to everyone, because they are sons. So similarly, if a man is real lover of God, he cannot cut throat of the animals. I think, therefore, Jesus Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." That is not... If actually one is lover of God, how he can give trouble, pains, to others? That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Buddha is God. That is stated. You will find?
Cardinal Pignedoli: Excuse me if I go back for a moment to this question which is not that I ask if you are, excuse it, if you go only to some, you go to all the people. I agree this is not (indistinct). But because we are few... I give an example. Why, instead of going, suppose, to South Africa where the majority, the great majority, are believers, you don't go to Japan?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we go.
Yogeśvara: So many social reformers will agree with you...
Prabhupāda: What social? He is animal. How he can reform? First of all, let him become man. What reform? What is the meaning of his reform? He is animal also. That's all. You cannot expect any reformation by the same animal. That is explained. Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). The so-called leader he is also animal, and he is eulogized by another animal. This is going on. And another animal, one animal, big animal is being elected as the president. Therefore you are suffering. Nixon. What is Nixon? He is also another animal. And the animals have elected him president. Just see. This is going on. Where is the human being?
Dhanañjaya: Just like in the forest. The animals, they select the lion to be the king.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So this is going on. That is condemned. One who is not God-conscious, one who does not know that he is not body, he is animal. That's all. Maybe in different dress, in different... So you have to set up real human society in a small scale so people will see, "Yes." Because man has got intelligence. Just like, although I am condemning the western mode of life, still, so many western young boys, they have come. I never came to speak to flatter you, that "Your western civilization is very nice." I never said that. Why you are coming? I never came to flatter you, neither I never came to say, "Yes, there is no God." I am speaking just opposite, everything opposite.
Prabhupāda: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then the solution is there.
Nitāi: That is just like the example you gave the other day about the man sitting under the tree. Someone comes up to him and says, "Come, work hard. You will enjoy." The hippies, their only business is trying to enjoy. They are just absorbed in sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. The hippies' philosophy is that "After all, we have to enjoy sense. So we are getting free, freedom. We can have sense enjoyment, sex life on the street. Why shall I work for the same purpose? We have already got it. You civilized man, you so-called civilized, advanced civilized man, for your sex life, you have to go to the skyscraper building, and we can do it on the street, on the park. We have got better facilities. Why shall I accept your philosophy." They will say, they say like that. (break) ...agree to the fact that they have no knowledge. Everything they are doing whimsically without any purpose. (break) ...from their side. You have to find out, make research.
C. Hennis: That's UNESCO. That I can't answer upon very fully. But I would suggest that they are, in that way UNESCO, United Nations through UNESCO, is very active in promoting culture and in stimulating philosophical thought. We are, on our side are more concerned with the place of the worker in society, and our organization is conceived along a peculiar model which we call the tripartite system. The members of our organization are states, not governments, but states, and each state is represented in our conference by two government delegates, one delegate of the employers and one delegate of the workers. And so the decisions that are reached, the same pattern goes down through the other organs of the organization. But the decisions that are reached in the International Labor Organization are thus not decisions which are only those of the government or the governing classes. They are decisions which represent a very broad consensus of opinions between both the employers and the workers as well as governments. And to that extent we do hope to find resolutions that have a very wide basis of ratification. After they are agreed upon by these three different elements of society represented in our International Labor Conference and in the other organs of the International Labor Organization, we endeavor to get the decisions ratified by national governments. Nevertheless the people who are here go back to their countries and try and get the decisions ratified so that a measure of uniformity in social justice and in the treatment of labor and protection of labor and in social security and in occupational safety and health and of all these things which are bound up with work and also payments to professional workers such as architects, nurses, doctors, people who work on a quite independent basis without being employed. It's not necessarily employees. Veterinarians and so on. The conditions of employment...
Prabhupāda: According to Vedic conception, the higher class of men, first-class, second class, third class, they are never to be employed. They remain free. Only the fourth class men, they are employed.
Prabhupāda: You cannot say, "I can do any kind of work." I can give you advice about spiritual life, but if you require medical advice, then you have to go to somebody else. You cannot expect medical advice from me. So this is not a fact, that everyone can do everything. No.
C. Hennis: No, no, I agree. I agree.
Prabhupāda: There must be division. There must be division, and each division must be maintained very nicely. Then the whole society is all right.
C. Hennis: That I would agree with. And my organization...
Yogeśvara: Perhaps one difference is that when we speak about the first-class, or the head division, the intellectual class, we are speaking about a class that is people who belong to that class by qualification, not simply that they have some title, that they are professor or that they are scholar. They have to be properly qualified.
C. Hennis: It's difficult to be a professor or a doctor unless you may have some type of qualification.
Yogeśvara: Well, he says it's difficult to be any kind of doctor or professor unless you are properly qualified.
Prabhupāda: No, from this point of... He is right. Unless he has got the medical degrees, unless he is educated... We also say that thing, that unless one is sufficiently educated in medical science or legal science, he cannot be said a medical man or a legal man.
C. Hennis: Are you saying that they do more work?
Yogeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No. Do work intelligently. Not that to be very hard-working like ass, without any intelligence. Just like ass is the most hard-working animal, but it has no intelligence. You see? So we don't want that. We want working with intelligence. That is difference.
C. Hennis: Well, as I said, to that extent we do try to improve a man's understanding, a man's understanding of the world, and I agree it's the developed world, the industrialized world, and the...
Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be...
C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains.
Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.
M. Roost: And when people are not prepared, for example, to be vegetarian and to..., when his mind is not prepared to his life what are you doing? How can you educate people to come...?
Prabhupāda: No, we are educating. We are educating hundreds and thousands. If one agrees to...
M. Roost: Occidental people.
Prabhupāda: They are all occidental.
M. Roost: Yes, yes, you, but very few people. How do you...?
Prabhupāda: Occidental means eastern, er, western? Yes.
Nitāi: Western.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are all western. They have taken to it. They have given up all such habits. In the beginning they were coming to me with their girlfriends, boyfriends. I said, "No, you cannot stay like that." So they agreed. I have got them married personally. They have got children. If you want to live as gṛhastha, live. If you want to live as vānaprastha or as sannyāsa... So generally, young men, young girls, I get them married. There is no harm. Married life, sex life, that is allowed in the śāstra. But not illicit sex. That is not allowed. If one remains sinful, he cannot make any progress of spiritual life. That is not possible. This is bogus, that you remain sinful and at the same time make spiritual progress. That is not possible. Otherwise, why there is distinction of sinful and pious life? You must be pious life. And the basic principle of pious life is this, avoid these four sinful life: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and meat-eating. They are sinful life. So one cannot make any progress in spiritual life who is habituated to act sinfully. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Government made agreement.
Karandhara: Yeah, they made some compromise with the union.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: It seems that the government had arrested all of the union leaders, and this paralyzed the worker's appeal. So the workers finally agreed to go back. They put many thousands of union leaders into jail.
Prabhupāda: It was right. (break)
Yogeśvara: ...did in such a way that crops can be grown anywhere? Can crops be grown anywhere in the world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If it does not grow, then what is nature's arrangement?
Yogeśvara: Well, for example, there are some parts in India that are too dry to cultivate the ground.
Prabhupāda: Dry means there is no rain. If natures like, there can be profuse rain. That is nature's arrangement. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Parjanyāt. You must have sufficient rain. And for having sufficient rain, you must execute yajña. Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). So these people are now becoming rascals. They are not performing yajñas. They are opening slaughterhouse. How there will be rain? Instead of performing yajñas, they are opening big, big slaughterhouse.
Prabhupāda: This is material energy. Bhūmir āpo 'nalaḥ, explain that.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That the material energies—earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego—these energies, they come from Kṛṣṇa. In other words, we are speaking of energy. There is an origin to the energy. We always have an experience. Just like there is sunshine here, but the sun, origin, is millions of miles away. So in the same way these energies also have origin. It's not that they are just existing without some source. And Kṛṣṇa is describing here in the Seventh Chapter—this is called Knowledge of the Absolute—how these energies are related to Him. Now, in the material world it's described that there are two energies. This is called bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā, inferior energy. This will be described in the next verse. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām (BG 7.5). Now, this is describing the superior energy or the parām, the parāṁ prakṛti. And this is described, "Besides this inferior nature," which is this earth, air, water, fire, ether, "O Mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine which are all the living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe." So this earth, air, water, fire and ether... Just like your body, it is being sustained by the soul. And as soon as the soul leaves the body, then, of course, the earth, air, water, fire and ether, it is no longer sustained in this fashion. It merges into the various elements or energies. And in this way, we can understand that the material world is made up of two energies, as my spiritual master said: the inferior energy, or this aparā-prakṛti, earth, air, water, fire, ether, etc., and the superior energy, or the living force. So the point is that the life force does not come from a combination of earth, air, water, fire, ether. It is separate. That is a superior energy. And on this point we agree. Now, we have to find out what is the source of both the superior and inferior material energies, or what is God.
Prabhupāda: And that is spiritual energy. That is spiritual energy. When we find out the source of these two energies, that the beginning of spiritual life, or spiritual understanding.
Dr. Sallaz: I am quite agree. And we do all in our center agree with it.
Prabhupāda: So then, first of all, we have to understand what is our constitutional position. We are superior-we, living entities—we are superior energy, eternal. And after annihilation of this body, I, the spirit soul, superior energy, am not annihilated. I accept another body, material body. And there are varieties of body, 8,400,000. (Yogeśvara translates)
Dr. Sallaz: And on this point of view, when some people are going very badly, wrong with us, of course, for us it is like air, but we say, "Poor people, what about their karma?" That is how we look it, "What about their karma?" It is a pity for them that they do so wrong, because they will have to pay for it. That is all.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "pay for it" means, he has got this chance of human body. Now he will have to accept lower grade animal body.
Prabhupāda: Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa. That's all right. But ye yathā māṁ prapadyante (BG 4.11). As you want Kṛṣṇa to do that, He says, "Only just surrender unto Me." He wants that. But you want so many things. Therefore He gives facility. "All right, do it, at your risk." He doesn't want. He says, "Give up all this nonsense." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66). "Just surrender unto Me." That He wants. But because we will not do that, we want to do something else, but I cannot do without His sanction, therefore He sanctions. That means Kṛṣṇa does everything. But I want to do, and simply I want His sanction. Therefore, out of His causeless mercy, He agrees, "All right do it." But you have to get the result of it.
Prof. Regamay: I thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prof. Regamay: It was very extremely useful. Just ends some problems. (end)
Guru-gaurāṅga: Given the fact that all others, they are loving God too, the same principle, Christianity...
Prabhupāda: No, symptoms must be there. If you love God, then you should love everything of God. You cannot distinguish that "These are human beings. They should be given service, and the animals should be sent to the slaughterhouse." That is not love of God. That means he does not know what is God. He is still unaware of God. Just like father. Father has got ten sons. Out of them, one is very intelligent or two are very intelligent; others are fools. And if the intelligent sons propose to the father, "Father, these are useless sons. Let me kill," will the father agree? So God is father of all living entities. He is providing food for the animal, for the man, because He is father. There is, in the jungle of Africa elephants. They are eating at a time hundred kilos. The father is providing. And the ant, a small ant, is eating one grain of sugar. He is providing. Within the hole of your room there are millions of ants. The father is providing food for them. That is God. Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. That one is providing all necessities of life to everyone, all living entities. That is God. So if I know God, then I can know also that all of them are sons of God and God is providing all their necessities of life. What right I have got to kill them?
Yogeśvara: His point is that he agrees that love alone is not sufficient; there must be knowledge. But he is feeling, I think, a little bit disappointed that up until this point the knowledge that we have been giving him is very elementary. He says there must be some higher knowledge that you know that can actually liberate people. He is looking for that. He wants to know what is that.
Prabhupāda: But if you cannot understand lower knowledge, how you can understand higher knowledge?
Yogeśvara: (translates)
Swiss Man (1): (French)
Yogeśvara: He says that he agrees, he accepts this elementary knowledge, but he says you must have in your teachings some higher knowledge which will permit everyone to do away with this nationalism, to do away with this false ego, and this pride. What is that knowledge?
Prabhupāda: So that knowledge is God consciousness, that just like in my body, your body, his body, what is the important thing? The important thing is the living force. So just like you are a person, I am a person, he is also a person. But what is the important thing in you, in me, and in him? What do you think?
Prabhupāda: Geneva, there are varieties of living entities and also houses and mountains. So two things, animate and inanimate. One section, animate; another section, inanimate. So we are small gods, or īśvaras. We may control the government and the management of the street and parks and everything, but we are controlled by the supreme. As supreme God, the supreme controller is not controlled by anyone. I am controlling, but I am being controlled by somebody else. That is God. So therefore we have to admit, we must admit that we are not free. We are controlled. Eh? By superior power or superior controller we are controlled. Therefore our duty is to be controlled according to His desire. So if we agree to be controlled by the Supreme, that is perfect life. And if we do not like to come to be controlled by the supreme, that is sinful life. And this is the perfect knowledge.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: And the bodies were already dead. And there were certain people that they knew their bodies, his fiance or his sister. They agreed that if they were going to eat the bodies they would eat them last. It's true. It was in the story. One man, he had his prospective wife. One man had his sister or sister-in-law, cousin. They said, "If we're going to eat the bodies, then we'll eat them the last." So they had a sense that this body is more important than that body, like that.
Prabhupāda: No, in last war they ate stool also.
Yogeśvara: Concentration camps.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Really? What is the Vaiṣṇava point of view?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is a Vaiṣṇava, is he willing to maintain his body for the service of Lord Kṛṣṇa even if he has to break regulative principles—if it is necessary?
Prabhupāda: If it is necessary.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Robert Gouiran: May I... I agree completely because I felt that when I could get a contact with the spiritual plane, I felt the protection. I felt that nothing could happen to me, not happen. As long as I was in touch...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Robert Gouiran: ...with this plane, nothing could happen because I felt I was in harmony. And when I went back, I took the plane, exactly as you say, at Colombo, I went by Colombo, and there was a storm, terrible storm when the plane took off, and the lady beside me was very frightened, and I was so enlightened at the time that I told her, "We are protected. I am protected. So if you are beside me you are also protected. So nothing could happen." And it was an extraordinary feeling. In French we call that providence. You know that?
Prabhupāda: Providence? Yes. That... When we are in danger, we remember the providence, but when we are happy we forget providence. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So we understand the matter generates from spirit. Just like I am a small fragment of spirit. You are also a small fragment of spirit. So when I am in the womb of my mother, so my big body grows. On account of my spirit, small particle of spirit, coming in the womb, in the womb of my mother, the body grows. So it is evident that this body has grown because the spirit soul is there. Suppose a dead child comes out. The matter will not grow. The material body will stop growing. Therefore the conclusion is matter grows on account of the spirit fragment. Do you agree or not?
Robert Gouiran: I... Do you mean that matter grows starting from a spiritual seed, something like that?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Robert Gouiran: If we, if we speak in scientific terms, there is an immaterial concept called the energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The spirit soul is also energy, and matter is also energy. Two energies, when they contact, the, the so-called expansion of matter takes place.
Robert Gouiran: Yes, and we could study in our laboratories the passage from energy to matter and back from matter to energy. It's what we call...
Prabhupāda: Matter is also energy.
Prabhupāda: But you... That we admit. There is some temporary use. There is some temporary use.
Robert Gouiran: Yes, I agree.
Prabhupāda: Just like your body has got some temporary use. Your body... But the... Your body's working. You, you are a scientist. You are working. Your work is temporary. But the soul, as soon as the soul is gone from your body, your body'll not work.
Robert Gouiran: Yes, but during his life my body has participated to a cosmic plane.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Yogeśvara: He says, while the ship is existing or while the body's existing, it must be used. It has some utility.
Prabhupāda: That I admit. But you have to accept it that it is temporary.
Robert Gouiran: Oh...
Prabhupāda: It is temporary.
Prabhupāda: It is temporary.
Robert Gouiran: But it's a parcel of...
Prabhupāda: I don't say that it is false. It is temporary.
Robert Gouiran: I agree it's temporary.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Robert Gouiran: But my work is to understand what will be the next transformation.
Prabhupāda: That transform...
Robert Gouiran: So to transform the temporary...
Prabhupāda: You know or do not know, the transformation will take place. Take, for example, the ship. The ship is combination of these five material things, earth, water, air, fire and... And when it is destroyed, it again turns into earth, water, fire... So the conservation of energy is there. You simply give a shape, temporary, and it goes again to the same place, original physical elements. This is going on. But you are... You do not know that you are eternal. That is ignorance. So therefore the sense is that "If I am eternal, then why I am busy with these temporary things?" That knowledge is lacking.
Robert Gouiran: I agree.
Prabhupāda: That they do not know, that "I am changing this body, and I am getting temporary engagement and wasting my time. And... But my problem, the change of body, death, is there. The death is there. Therefore my real problem is how to stop this death." That we want also. We do not wish to die. That is our propensity.
Robert Gouiran: Are you interested to know how we produce anti-matter in our laboratories from...?
Prabhupāda: Anti-matter, I have explained that, this... So our anti-matter is different. Anti-matter means spirit. But your anti-matter is different.
Robert Gouiran: Yes, it's just a word to define something.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but we mean, anti-matter means there are two things, spirit and matter. So anti-matter means spirit. That is our explanation. It is not matter. Just like matter is destructible. Anti-matter means which is not destructible.
Prabhupāda: So? Do you agree or not? (laughter) We welcome scientific knowledge. We don't say that scientific knowledge should be stopped, but it should be utilized to glorify the Lord. Then it is perfect. Otherwise useless. Means you don't get perfection. Perfection is when you scientifically describe the existence of God and His different energies, how they are working. And that is scientist, real scientist. Otherwise, theories, you can give your theory, I'll give you a theory... Temporary. That's all. So everything is there in Bhāgavatam, all knowledge, full knowledge. Vidvān bhāgavata-vādī. So vidvān means, vidvān means one who has learned Bhāgavata, Bhāgavatam nicely. He's vidvān, factually. So you do not read all these things?
Robert Gouiran: I am sorry.
Nitāi: No need.
Prabhupāda: No need. Then when the brahmacārī is allowed to become gṛhastha, he can keep more than one wife if he's able to provide them nicely. Here they marry today and tomorrow divorce. The... No meaning of marriage. Simply prostitution. Because he does not need a wife. His sex life is satisfied in so many ways. So why he should be affected, attached to wife? And why the wife should be attached to the husband? Therefore divorce. It is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Dam-patye ratim eva hi. In the Kali-yuga, married life means sex life. For sex satisfaction, they'll marry. Otherwise, there is no need of marrying. That is... Svīkāra eva codvāhe. Marriage means that they, both of them agree that "We shall live together for some time." These things are happening, already foretold. By agreement, "Yes, we shall live together." That is marriage. "And then I may divorce." Actually, they do not know what is the meaning of marriage. All dependent on sex. Rati. Rati means... Dam-patye ratim eva hi. Vipratve sūtram eva hi: "To become brāhmaṇa means just have a thread only."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: They say it doesn't go beyond... They have to agree that the baby's body is gone and the young man's body is gone. They have to agree. But they say that that doesn't mean logically that I have to take another body.
Prabhupāda: What is the other logic? If you have changed your body so many times, why not change this body? What is your reason? Natural course it should be that I have changed so many bodies so this body I shall change. This is natural logic. And what is his logic?
Satsvarūpa: So he said... They say it may be or it may not be.
Prabhupāda: But that is your rascaldom. But this is the real logic.
Guru-gaurāṅga: They also say that it is not... It is the same body, more or less...
Prabhupāda: Same body...
Guru-gaurāṅga: But it is just developed, but it is not a different body.
Prabhupāda: No. Developed means different body. Development means different body. They cannot say it is not different body. Then if it is not different, then go to childhood again. That means they're not human being. Human being means with logic. According to their definition, man is rational animal. They're not even rational. Like cats and dogs. There is no rationality. Cats and dogs also they have got rationality. Logic plus authority, Kṛṣṇa says. How you can deny? That means they don't agree with Kṛṣṇa's instruction. You see? This logic, I am not giving this logic. This logic is given by Kṛṣṇa. So unless... The difficulty is that unless they accept the authority, it is very difficult. Logic is there. The authority is there.
Prabhupāda: But you want to approve God, if we agree to that, then this is the easiest process. You chant God's name and you approach. Why again new? This is the easiest proposition. Eh? Chant God's name and you approach.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: In the Bhagavad-gītā it says that those who are different modes of nature, they have different types of charity and different types of religion. So does this mean religions that are already established in the Vedas or...
Prabhupāda: That is means conditional religion. That is not absolute religion. In order to, what is called, summarize all types of religion... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mama vartmānuvartante manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ, "Everyone is trying to come to Me." So they are coming by different paths. So that is accepted. Now, when he says that "I am here. You're coming to Me, now you just surrender. Then everything is all right." Why don't you accept that? Why do you insist, "No, I shall come in a different way, different path"? What is this nonsense? God is saying "All right, you have got different paths, but give up that. Now simply surrender to Me." Where I am objection? If I am a really lover of God, God is saying like that, why not accept that? Why shall I pay for different paths? Eh? Suppose in this jungle you are scattered and you are searching "Where is Prabhupāda? Where is Prabhupāda?" And somebody says, "Come this way. Come this way." And if I say, "Not this way, that way.
Prabhupāda: I requested that "You are one of the important men. Why don't you agree? Close the slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, take it when the cow is dead. We shall supply you?" What is their objection? What is the possible objection?
Bhagavān: Objection is that the people have become so impatient for sense gratification, they have no patience anymore. They can't wait... There was some story. In the United States, there has been this trouble with petrol, and... All over the world, there's been this trouble with petrol, gasoline. So there was rationing. That means people could only get a little gas. So the cars would line up for a great distance in the gas station, and they'd wait for a long time. And sometimes the gas station would run out of gas. And the people would get so angry that they killed the gas station attendant. (break) ...does not teach anyone to be austere or patient.
Prabhupāda: But human life is meant for austere and patience. Tapo divyam (SB 5.5.1). Austerity, penance, that is human life. Otherwise, it is animal life. Simply animal civilization. It is not human civilization. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (car is in gas station, conversation in car about how much gas to get, etc.) (break) ...progressing, they stand their own position, as they are made by nature. Therefore there is no criminality. They are under full control of nature. We are also under full control of nature, but we have been given little concession: to cultivate spiritual knowledge. So that intelligence, extra intelligence, what we have got, instead of cultivating spiritual knowledge, we are using in the same process of sense gratification like the animals. And this, this business, this, means animalistic business in a polished way, is going on as civilization. Actually, it is animalistic.
Prabhupāda: I agree. I agree. He's right. He's right. He's right.
Pṛthu Putra: He wasn't appreciating exactly.
Bhagavān: Did he appreciate? First of all...
Pṛthu Putra: He doesn't appreciate what we are doing exactly. He says, he says, with his Indian, with his Indian, what he's doing with his Indian, what is the name of it...?
Bhagavān: Francend. (Name of paper?)
Jyotirmayī: Franscend.
Pṛthu Putra: Franscend. He says there is many swami and writer come from India and teach to the people, to the western people, what is Kṛṣṇa, what is Indian philosophy, what is God, but they always teach the people who need to be safe, to be, who need something to be safe, and they take it like just a drug or some kind of a dream just to get something to get safe from the material world. But that doesn't mean their action is concrete. That is his point.
Prabhupāda: But we are not doing that. We are, in the material world, we are teaching Kṛṣṇa philosophy, practicing. All these young men, they are actually twenty-four hours engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are different from them.
Prabhupāda: So he has got his opinion. I have got my own opinion. How we'll agree? We say that you remain in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything will be solved. Does he agree? (French)
Yogeśvara: He says, "No, absolutely not. Just like I don't accept the existence..."
Prabhupāda: Then why shall I agree to his point? (French) So...
Yogeśvara: So he says, "So I have to leave now. But the last thing I'd like to say is that I reject that conclusion just like I reject also the Christian conclusion that the truth is in the Evangel. But," he says, "that doesn't impede me, that doesn't stop me from working very nicely with some of my best friends who are Christians when it comes down to practical work."
Prabhupāda: No, what is his opinion? That he never disclosed.
Church Representative: I absolutely agree on this point, certainly. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he's familiar with this principle. He says he knows of it, but he doesn't consider himself to be an expert.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: But because you are part of God, you have real interest in this. Everyone.
Church Representative: Certainly. (French)
Yogeśvara: He says he's willing to admit this philosophy even though he doesn't belong to it himself. He sees this as being...
Paramahaṁsa: He appreciates the fact that it has a coherent aspect, that it holds together logically. And this is what he appreciates.
Prabhupāda: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese, I am Englishman, I am German, I am Indian, I am white, I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body.
Pṛthu Putra: He says one thing: we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That, what is the cause of the suffering? (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself.
Prabhupāda: So let him become in knowledge. (French)
Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French)
Yogeśvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant.
Prabhupāda: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up, that is the position of fixed up. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point.
Prabhupāda: He will agree with all the points provided he is fixed up. (French) Not, (sic:) after death, in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time.
Prabhupāda: Not each time. Just like our devotees. They come in the saṅkīrtana once, twice, thrice. He becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. (French)
Pṛthu Putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, who is not agitated. Sama-duḥkha-sukhaṁ duḥkham. What is that? Same verse.
Prabhupāda: You are all fools. You are all fools. Therefore you have no philosophy. You cannot understand philosophy.
Yogeśvara: He says, "God is beyond philosophy and words."
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: That is how he brainwashes them.
Paramahaṁsa: The impersonalists have agreed amongst themselves that "As many theories, as many ways to God."
Prabhupāda: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the śāstra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga.
Paramahaṁsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Paramahaṁsa: They argue that all paths lead to Kṛṣṇa. So why is one better than another?
Prabhupāda: If you know that all paths leads to Kṛṣṇa, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this.
Prabhupāda: So cleanse yourself. Why don't you cleanse? Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). The cleansing process is chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and you'll be cleansed. Why do you stick to dirtiness? Be cleansed. If you agree that you are in dirtiness, then take the process of cleansing the dirt.
Paramahaṁsa: Sometimes people argue that they've been born a sinful person. I know you said once in an article that vice is not inherent in the living entity.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know...
Prabhupāda: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? (break) ...Navadvīpa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? (break) That is accepted. Janmanā jāyate śūdraḥ (?). By birth, everyone is a śūdra. Śūdra means unclean. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya.
Jyotirmayī: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is... We have a personal relationship with God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is person, and Paramātmā, all-pervading, localized, and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal the sun globe, localized, and the sun-god person. (break)
Jyotirmayī: He says he's accepting some of the things you are saying, but he's doesn't think that he's obliged to accept everything.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedānta-sūtra. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Whatever things are there... In the Bible, also there is... "Everything comes from Him, what is made." Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: "Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman." So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God's energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā. The resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Kṛṣṇa. Find out this verse, brahmaṇaḥ ahaṁ pratiṣṭhā.
Jyotirmayī: So she said that in..., it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don't have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances." And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). "If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless." Antar-bahiḥ yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), "If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?" And naradita..., nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), "If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?" Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being.
Jyotirmayī: So they agree totally with what you said. (French)
Yogeśvara: (Translating) Well, first you said that, first we must learn about God and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first.
Prabhupāda: But unless one... We say, "Unless you have learned what is God." That means you have to learn God. Then religion... Religion means... What does he say?
Yogeśvara: He says, "But God reveals Himself to us."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is... That is stated in the Vedic language, ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ: (Brs. 1.2.234) "You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses." These senses, present (the ten) senses, cannot realize. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau. When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue. One is talking, and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God's prasādam, then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been, they are being taught, "Use the tongue for Kṛṣṇa. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and eat Kṛṣṇa prasādam." And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Kṛṣṇa, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: So there is no truth. It is all hodge-podge. (German)
Pṛthu: Yeah, so she agrees on your point that everyone takes what he likes, and that she says is what...
Prabhupāda: So it is a hodge-podge. (German)
Pṛthu: So she again says that she cannot accept the points of the Bible where there is mention of miracles.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Pṛthu: She again says that one cannot accept the portions of the Bible where there are statements...
Prabhupāda: Now, once she said that those things cannot be taken now literally.
Pṛthu: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of taking Bible? (German) (break)
Pṛthu: ...that one always has to take the truth from the untruth, also in Bible.
Prabhupāda: This is nonsense. From untruth, how there can be truth? (end)
Prof. Pater Porsch: I agree with you but just think how the world was only a few years ago.
Professor Durckheim: Yes. And especially if you talk about the rational (German), the really German tradition is the irrational. So now this is coming back now, rediscovering their own past slowly.
Prabhupāda: So long they do not come to the standard platform, they will accept this sometimes and that sometimes. This will go on, changing.
Prof. Pater Porsch: No, but I meant it differently. Can it not be that average man in the street... I don't mean... Yes, it was, of course, in Germany. Man in the street now is infected from the...
Professor Durckheim: Absolutely, yes.
Prof. Pater Porsch: And he thinks that in order to give a rational presentment, (German) (break)
Professor Durckheim: ...I realize that the closer members engaged, really, in this work of distributing books and chanting, wearing the white robes and shaving the heads, they are the closer participants I suppose. And then have you also members of your movement which are simply in their work, in the community, in the world? Or is...
Prabhupāda: No, we invite everyone.
Prabhupāda: But it doesn't matter, but if I say that "I will turn you immediately into a dog," will you agree to become?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: Why? You'll forget.
Satsvarūpa: Fearful.
Prabhupāda: If I say that "I can turn you immediately to become a dog..." That is possible, but will you agree to become a dog?
Mādhavānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: Why? You will forget. That is foolishness. "Because I shall forget, therefore I don't care for it"—this is childish, foolish proposal. If I say, "I will turn you immediately to this grass, and you will stay here for one hundred years," will you agree to stand like that for hundred years? Hare Kṛṣṇa. In the western countries actually there is no philosophy.
Prabhupāda: But if you don't mind, I can say that the Christians are not obeying the orders of God. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: I agree.
Prabhupāda: Then where is love? If you disobey the orders of God, then where is your love? Therefore we have come here to teach them to love God. If you love me, you cannot disobey me. And if you disobey me, that love is not real.
Pater Emmanuel: Will that means that Christianity has to change their customs or the Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, must return to the source?
Prabhupāda: (aside) You can sit on the chair if you like.
Guest: No, I like to sit, thank you.
Prabhupāda: Not only Christianity, everywhere, the people now do not love God, but they love dog. Yes. Therefore this movement is required, awakening of God consciousness. Not the Christians, they are only to be accused, but Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They are simply stamp, but no obedience to God. This is the position.
Pater Emmanuel: Can you say exactly the point where Christians are not obedient. Do you see any points here by your visit to the Christian countries and you like to say for us? It is a help for us to say exactly the point.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The first point is that your commandment is "Thou shalt not kill," and you are maintaining regularly slaughterhouse. The first commandment is disobeyed. Do you agree or not?
Pater Emmanuel: Um...
Prabhupāda: Or in my front the animals are being kept for being killed.
Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Pater Emmanuel: I personally agree.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, actually, if Christians are lover, they must stop immediately this animal killing.
Pater Emmanuel: I agree.
Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?
Pater Emmanuel: No.
Pater Emmanuel: But I think it is a very necessary, this mutual respect.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is instructed by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that you should offer respect even to a person who has no respect. Amāninā mānadena. You should not expect any respect for yourself, but you should give respect to others.
Pater Emmanuel: I agree with all my heart.
Prabhupāda: I think those who are Christian priests, they should cooperate with this movement, chant the name of Christ or Christo and stop animal killing. This is according to Bible. This is not according to my philosophy, but their Christian philosophy. Simply let them do it and see how the situation becomes nice.
Pater Emmanuel: I am very thankful to you for this...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (everyone goes out-end of this discussion) (Break)
Guest: (German)
German devotee: (devotee translates for German man) Where is it written in Bhagavad-gītā that sexual intercourse is only allowed in married life? Is there any statement in Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Find out, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma, d-h-a-r, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi.
German devotee: Yes, Seventh Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Seventh Chapter. (end)
Madhudviṣa: But whether he agrees or not, he will become one, if he is too much attached. (break) ...the chief engineer of building the chariots, and all of these people are his assistants.
Prabhupāda: Jagannātha will be very much pleased upon you. Yes. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt. Little service to God is taken as great service. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. So we should try always to give the best service, best energy, and you become liberated. Actually we cannot give any service to Kṛṣṇa. He is unlimited. What is the value of our service? But He takes it seriously: "Oh, he is trying to give me some service." Otherwise what service He needs from us? Suppose He has created these big universes, what service we can give? By His will, He can create millions of universes. What service we can give? We... No. These are the chances of service, this Ratha-yātrā. God is so great, so big, how we can pack up in the ratha. But this is a chance, that you get Him sit on the ratha and prepare it, manufacture it. Because your energy is engaged for His service, that is accepted. So this example... Just like a small child eating lozenges, and out of that, if he offers father, "Father, take it," and father takes it very serious..., "Ah, very nice." And what is that lozenges to the father? It is nothing. But because the child offers to the father in love, father takes it very seriously: "Oh, you are so nice. Yes, yes, give me."
Satsvarūpa: Yes, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So pure devotional service is flame. All other things are smoke. You must get the flame. Otherwise, your business will not get done. So naturally we fan when there is smoke, "Phat, phat, phat." As soon as flame comes, there is no smoke. So again fan it. Let the flame come. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise be satisfied with the smoke. You are cooking with smoke for three hundred years. (laughter) There is a very humorous story that one man... He was a yogi. So he approached. It is not story, it is fact. Approached one big man that... As people are very inquisitive to see some yogic magic, so the rich man asked the yogi, "What you have learned about yogic perfection?" "No, I can in the severe winter season, I can dip myself in the water up to this and practice yoga." "So, how long can you remain? At night?" "Yes. No, I can remain the whole night or as long as you..." "All right, if you remain within severe cold, within water, overnight, then I shall give you such and such presentation." So he agreed, and he did it. And in the morning, when the man came, so he said, "Oh, you are successful." Then he did not... Either he had no money or he did not want to give. So he had his one advisor, "So what shall I do?" "No, no sir, you cannot give money."
Dr. Muncing: I would agree with you that the body, when a person dies, it's material and dead in the terms we use and the spirit moves on. And I accept from that that at that stage one has nothing to..., one has no worry about the body. But in the stage that we are now, where our body and our soul are together, it seems to me that this is one unity and you can't use the argument that at that stage you should neglect the body.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't say neglect the body. But the important factor... Just like our, this Svarūpa Dāmodara has explained that behind this material combination, there is an active principle which is soul. That is the important thing. But in the modern age they are giving more stress on the unimportant thing, and they have no knowledge of the important thing. This is the defect.
Dr. Muncing: With respect, sir, I notice you wear a watch. This must be obviously a product of science, and this is what it's about. But you are stressing time and again in your writings the need to concentrate on the laws that you set out in order to achieve some standing in the future, in the life hereafter. Isn't this at the risk of neglecting the people who are sharing this life with us here and now?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not the question of neglecting. Just like formerly there was no watch, but still they used to keep time by the movement of the sun on a dial, just making some marks on the stone. Do you know this?
Guests: Yes, yes, I know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.
Dr. Muncing: I agree.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition.
Dr. Harrap: It's a complete food in itself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Those who are meat-eaters, they can eat other non-important animals, but cows must be saved, even from economic point of view. Here it is said that go-rakṣya. It does not say, Kṛṣṇa, "elephant-rakṣya." Elephant is a big animal, and at least fifty times more than cow, there is flesh. But it is not recommended. But the cow protection is recommended because it has got the miracle food, milk, and from milk you can prepare hundreds of preparation, all nutritious, full of vitamin A and D. So therefore it is recommended, go-rakṣya. It is not that meat-eating is stopped. Meat-eaters may kill other non-important animals but don't kill animal, er, cow. And besides that, from moral point of view, we are drinking milk from the cow, so she is mother. According to Vedic understanding there are seven kinds of mother: ādau mātā, real mother. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, the wife of guru, spiritual master. Ādau mātā, guru patnī, brāhmaṇī, the wife of a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means the most intelligent class of men in the society. Who are brāhmaṇa, that is also mentioned there in the śāstra. So his wife. Ādau mātā, guru patnī... In general the understanding is, except your wife all woman is your mother. That is the instruction of Canakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu: "All women should be treated as mother." Para-dāreṣu. Para-dāra means others' wife. So every woman was married. It is compulsory. This is the Vedic system, that every woman must be married. It is the duty of the father to see the daughter is married, must be married. It is called kanyā-dāya. You cannot evade this responsibility. You must. The father's duty is, as soon as the girl is grown-up, immediately some boy must be found out and handed over: "My dear boy, I give you this girl in charity. You take care and give her protection." This is marriage. And he agrees, "Yes, I take charge of this girl." In our society, we get married.
Prabhupāda: But I know, all educated and advanced educated Englishmen, they were coming to Australia for good job. Therefore most of the technical posts, they are occupied by Indians in London. As soon as one is highly qualified medical man, he comes to Australia. So who will take care of them? So therefore they imported some brain from India. Anyway, our time should be saved for self-realization. That is perfect civilization. And not for creating unnecessary necessity of life. That will increase problem. So scientists, they disagreed or agreed with us?
Madhudviṣa: They did not want to get... They did not want to...
Prabhupāda: But they could not answer "Who is the manufacturer of the brain of the scientist?" That they could not.
Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) He is not poet. Poet means he must have full knowledge. Then if he writes poetry, that will be beneficial. The rascal's poetry, just like in your country, one line, three lines, one line. This is rascaldom; it is not poetry. (aside:) You should not show your feet before the Deity. That is possible only in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We teach our men to address his fellow man as prabhu: "You are master, I am servant." In the material world, everyone is trying to become master; nobody is trying to become servant. And we are teaching that you try to become servant. Just the opposite. Nobody will agree. Therefore, they say the Vaiṣṇava religion is slave mentality. They say. They do not know that it is success of life to become slave of Kṛṣṇa. They do not know. Who has become happy trying to become master? (indistinct)
Devotee (2): They'll all be cheated.
Prabhupāda: No, not a single person. Actually he remains slave, artificially he thinks that "I am master." Just like Nixon was thinking. He was actually slave of the nation, but he was thinking, "I am master." When he was pressed too much, he had to admit, "Yes, I am your slave." He was pressed. Rather, oppressed. Nobody is thinking. Idam adya mayā labdham imaṁ prāpsye punar dhanam. Everyone is thinking, "I have got now so much money (indistinct) ...lot of money, so who is better than me?" (indistinct) She has become poet. Nonsense number one, and she is poet. Does not know the human psychology or animal psychology.
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is recommended that you live with devotees. But if you cannot agree with the devotees, you have got your own opinion, then you cannot make a new opinion so far the process is concerned. That must be followed. This is not good idea, that "Whatever I do, it is my independence, and I will chant." So that is good in sense that some day he will come to senses. Otherwise, for the time being, the chant is not very powerful. The fire in wet wood is not powerful. It will create some smoke. Although the fire is there. But if you put dry wood, immediately it will be blazing, and your business will be quickly done. This is intelligence. There are many examples. A patient suffering from disease, a doctor said, "You should do; you should not do." So if we follow "You should not do," then it becomes quickly recovered. But if he becomes under the treatment of the doctor at the same time he does all nonsense, then how it can be successful? It will take time. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya pracūra. Pāpi jane aparādha āchāya... Offenseless chanting is the ultimate goal. In the beginning we are not offenseless, but by chanting, chanting, by practice, we gradually become offenseless. But this is necessary, that you should be offenseless.
Professor: (translated into English by Hṛdayānanda) He says that he agrees that the goal of life is not that, but that from his childhood he's been trained in a certain way, and he has not been taught anything else, and how can he achieve a different way of life?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are teaching in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how you can change it. Therefore we asking all leading men to understand this movement and join it. That is our request.
Professor: There is a question I would like to ask. I do know that it is not the aim of life just to every morning keep your family, go to bed and have sex. But it is part of life.
Prabhupāda: That I know also, everyone knows. But beyond that, there must be some aim of life.
Professor: Occupier.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a house. There are two persons, one is the tenant and the other is the landlord. The proprietor is the landlord, and the tenant is occupier. Actually that is self-realization, that I must know that "I am occupier of this body but I am not proprietor." The proprietor is God.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that all religions agree that man can be perfected although he may not be perfect now...
Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of religion. We are talking of philosophy and science. When we talk about these things that the occupier of the body is within the body, it is neither any Christian knowledge nor Hindu knowledge nor... It is fact. It is a science. The science cannot be "I believe or you believe or you..." That is not science. Science is science. I have already said. Two plus two equal to four is equally applicable everywhere. Similarly, this is knowledge, that the proprietor, or the occupier of the body, is within the body. You can study from any angle of vision. The fact is there.
Prabhupāda: Origin of pain means as soon as you come to the material world, is the origin of pain. Just like the... It can be appreciated very nicely. Just like water. Water is sometimes painful, and sometimes pleasing. Is it not? Do you agree or not? No, I just try to... Water is the same thing, but sometimes it is painful and sometimes it is pleasing, is it not? So how the same thing becomes pleasing and painful? This is circumstantial. The same thing is pleasing and the same thing is painful under different circumstances. Similarly, fire. Fire is sometimes pleasing and sometimes painful. The fire is the same, but circumstantially, it becomes painful and pleasing. Just like in winter season the fire is pleasing. And in summer season the same fire is painful. Now, these feelings of pains and pleasure is due to this material body. Therefore the material body is the cause of pains and pleasure. So if you do not get this material body—you remain in your spiritual body—then there is no more pains and pleasure.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): She says that everyone has to decide.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That decision is required, that is knowledge. Simply saying, "I am," everyone can say, "I am." What is that? You must know what you are. That is required. Therefore I am asking, "What you are?"
Lady: I agree. I am just mentioning that "I am" is the name of God, and then you add the adjective, and He will be established unto you.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no. "I am" is not the name of God. That is identification. That is the identification. God can say, "I am," you can say, "I am," but that does not mean you are God.
Lady: Jesus Christ said that if you establish what you are after you say "I am"...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, everyone is saying, "I am." Everyone is saying in ordinary dealing, "I am." That is there. But that does (not) mean different "I am" is the same.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): Māyāvāda. She says that everyone has the Christ within him.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't agree with all these things.
Lady (Hṛdayānanda): If we agree with Buddhist consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, no, whatever consciousness may be, I say that in the Bible it is said that son of God is Christ. His name is Christ. How you can deny the name? No, no, that is their interpretation, "Christ means 'I am.' " They want to interpret in their own way. There is name. How can you deny it?
Guest (Hṛdayānanda): He is saying that you have said that we have a material body and also a spiritual body. So he wants to know if the spirit and matter are born simultaneously or if the matter is born, the material body is born, and later the spirit comes.
Prabhupāda: No, from spirit the matter has come out. Just like God said, "Let there be creation." So God was there and creation later on. So God is spirit and creation is matter.
Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that the driver is different from the car. But if you simply take care of the car, not of the driver, is that very good intelligence?
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He agrees with that, that one should keep the body in the best condition in order to try to advance in life as far as possible.
Prabhupāda: No, unless you take care of the driver, the car cannot run.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He also believes in the spiritual advancement, but he feels that the body must be kept in the best possible condition.
Prabhupāda: That we also say. We never say... I have already given the example that the driver is different from the car, but if you simply take care of the car and do not take care of the driver, is that very good intelligence?
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): So he agrees with you.
Prabhupāda: So the driver is not in order—he may create disaster at any moment. So the insanity is not of the car, but the insanity is of the driver. So when we feel problems of the humanity, it means the insanity of the soul, not of the body. And because the driver, or the soul, is not taken care of, therefore so many problems are coming in the body. Just like, if one man takes care of hygienic principle, his bodily ailments are less, similarly, if the driver is kept in proper sanity, then there will be no accidents in the car. Another example: just like the bird in, the cage.
Prabhupāda: I don't say exclusively. I say the first care should be taken of the driver, and taking care of the car is secondary.
Psychiatrist (Hṛdayānanda): He agrees.
Prabhupāda: So why you do not take care of the dead body? Because the driver is gone. Then who is important, the car or the driver? So that is the defect of the modern civilization. They don't take care of the driver. He is taking care of the car. So you said your, that what is the problems of human society. This is the root cause of the problems, that we are not taking care of the driver; we are simply taking care of the car. But if we take care of the driver, the driver knows how to take care of the car.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Tripurāri: Fools and rascals who won't take your books. Sometimes we convince them that the philosophy is very nice, and they agree when we use Lord Kṛṣṇa's words, dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13), and they say "Yes, I can understand that, but I don't need your book," or "I would never read it." We say, "Well, no. Take it."
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) You ask them, "So you want to remain mūḍhā?"
Tripurāri: We say, "No, take it home, and some day you will read it." They think they can find out on their own.
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. They cannot. Mām eva ya prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te.
Tripurāri: Sometimes they will agree to everything we say, but they will not give a donation. They trust more the man on the T.V.
Prabhupāda: This is lake?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So do that. Don't approach the cheater guru, bluffer guru, and be cheated. Stop this business. This has spoiled the whole spiritual atmosphere of the world. Take guru, the supreme guru, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa, when in Mahābhārata when Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira performed rājasūya yajña, in the rājasūya yajña one person is elected the chief guest. So in that yajña many big, big demigods were present, and Bhīṣmadeva was present, Vyāsadeva was present, and many, many other saintly person, brāhmaṇa, from the whole universe were present. And Kṛṣṇa was decided to be accepted as the... Everyone agreed to accept Him as the chief guest. And the Śiśupāla, he protested. Then everyone was angry to kill him. So Kṛṣṇa is accepted the guru by everyone. By our ācāryas, recent ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... I am not speaking of the loafer class, but those who are recognized ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya... They accepted Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme guru and follow His instruction and try to convince others. "Others" means even your family members. That is success of life. Saṁsiddhiḥ hari-toṣaṇam. Why should you lead your life blindly? This human life is meant for enlightenment, supreme enlightenment, and this is supreme enlightenment, to understand the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā and preach it as far as you can. If not, you can preach amongst your family members. This is perfection of life. What is that verse? Ya imaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati. That is the desire of Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (5): ...our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is there any different methods?
Prabhupāda: No, methods I have all explained. Kṛṣṇa bhakta means do what Kṛṣṇa says. That is Kṛṣṇa bhakti. Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇanu-śilānam (CC Madhya 19.167). Just like Arjuna did. He did not like to fight with his cousin-brothers, but after hearing instruction of Kṛṣṇa, he said, "Yes," naṣṭo mohaḥ, "my illusion is now over." Smṛtir labdhā: "I have got my consciousness." Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "I shall act as You are saying, that's all." This is Kṛṣṇa bhakta. We may have different decisions. That is natural. But when you agree to abide by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, then your life is perfect. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So you have to agree. Kṛṣṇa does not force; He says, "Do this like this," and if we agree, then we are Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Guest: Somebody that manufactures a product which is basically destructive.
Prabhupāda: No. Coca-Cola company... Of course, we advise... Kṛṣṇa advises, yat karoṣi. It includes Coca-Cola company. But He said yat karoṣi: "Whatever you do." Kṛṣṇa said, "Whatever you do." So that includes all kinds of activities. But will the Coca-Cola company agree to give the profit to Kṛṣṇa? Then he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. The profit he will enjoy for his wine and woman, that's all, not for Kṛṣṇa. That is the difficulty.
Guest: Can the profit of the manufacture of something which is manufactured purely for profit be turned to good?
Prabhupāda: Yes, if he gives to Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna. He fought. He killed. Killing is not good business, but he killed on the advice of Kṛṣṇa, and he became a bhakta by killing. Kṛṣṇa said, bhakto 'si. And what did he do? He killed, that's all. This is an example. Of course, bhakta never kills. Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna was not willing to kill. But when he saw that "Kṛṣṇa wants it, so this is my first business. Never mind I shall go to hell," that is Kṛṣṇa conscious. "By killing my brother I may go to hell. It doesn't matter. But Kṛṣṇa will be satisfied. That is my first business." Kṛṣṇa sometimes pretended to be sick. And many physicians came, they could not cure Him, headache. So He suggested that "I think if My devotee gives their dust of foot on My head, then I'll be cured."
Indian man: That is also an imagination of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That form is also God. Accepting your theory that there are many forms of God, so that form is also God.
Indian man: That form, OK, I agree...
Prabhupāda: So we accept Him, God, either way.
Indian man: But need not be a definite form. He need not have a definite form.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. There may be different form. But that form is God. Then you have to accept Him God.
Indian man: Yes, OK. And when I say one form, it may be formless also, and I may...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that form is God. You have to accept.
Prabhupāda: Don't keep it. Finish one business.
Satsvarūpa: So it's just a matter of typing it, then?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: We can't sign anything now. It's not any...
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, you are... You make some addition, alteration, to that. So make it complete. Then retype and then sign.
Satsvarūpa: Yes. Everyone has agreed on what it should be.
Atreya Ṛṣi: Has everyone agreed?
Madhudviṣa: Well, why don't you read it? Why don't you compose it and then let us all see what it says.
Prabhupāda: So what is the advantage of moving the Press?
Jayatīrtha: That Ramesvara should be here to say.
Prabhupāda: Call (?) Ramesvara. If you be..., all GBC agrees, then you do that.
Jayatīrtha: All right. So if we have a separate meeting, and Ramesvara presents his proposals nicely, and everyone agrees, then we can...
Prabhupāda: You consider, and then you decide.
Jayatīrtha: So that's one thing to discuss. Another thing to discuss is Spiritual Sky.
Madhudviṣa: Don't you think that there should be some representatives from the Press at that meeting too?
Jayatīrtha: Yes, they'll be there.
Prabhupāda: Now, the Spiritual Sky... I have heard that you are paying two thousand rupees, er, two thousand dollars, per month to the accountant, and one thousand dollars to Karandhara.
Prabhupāda: I do not bring in any guru. We are talking between ourselves. Don't bring any guru. Just talk as common men. So whether you agree to this point?
Haṁsadūta: Understand?
Girl: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of guru. It is a question of common sense.
Haṁsadūta: (German)
Girl: (German)
Prabhupāda: It is very simple thing, that "I am changing my body, and similarly, I'll change this body." This should be understood by my present circumstances of life, and it is confirmed by the greatest authority, Kṛṣṇa. Knowledge by authority and knowledge by experience, both things are there. And still, the rascals do not understand. Knowledge is gathered by experience, and knowledge is gathered from the authority. Just like I ask my father, "What is this?" Father says, "This is bell." So this is knowledge. I get it from my father. And by experience, when I push it, it is ringing. So understand, "This is bell." So two sources of knowledge: by practical experience and by authority.
Prabhupāda: No, that is because you are our student. Suppose our preachers meet the theologicians. How to prove that theology is not the means? Theology... Generally, you say it is speculation. So our point is that nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo na medhayā na bahunā śrutena. The ātmā, Kṛṣṇa, cannot be understood or approached, pravacanena, simply by logical arguments.
Prajāpati: The theologian would agree, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It's a question of what's called apologetics. Theology has a specific function for the Christian church, to bring people within the fold. Simply to convince them through any means, logical or whatever, to them to come within the church community, and then once they are within that group, then they can participate in what's called the Christian life. You have taking sacraments, engage in Christian fellowship, taking communion, so many things.
Acyutānanda: But their authorities disagree.
Prajāpati: Yes. That is... They will agree with that.
Acyutānanda: But our disciplic succession from thousands of years, there's no big disagreement.
Pañcadraviḍa: I met one... I was traveling about three months ago in India. I met one Christian on the train. So we began to discuss the śāstra. So I mentioned some of the arguments in reference to the Bible, that Christ was speaking...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) No, no. Where that covering? Where is it?
Prajāpati: But it's the same word. In fact, everyone agrees they do not know what the real name is. Some say Yahweh; some say Jehovah. The Jewish tradition replaces completely and says Adonai, instead.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He may not say. But we have to take from the meaning. What is the meaning?
Viṣṇujana: "No one is beyond Me."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. "No one is beyond Me." Then he comes to our conclusion, all-attractive. This is... They come to our conclusion, all-attractive. Because if somebody is beyond Him, then he should be attractive. But if He's final attractive, then all-attractive, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. What do you think?
Pañcadraviḍa: They cannot... They can't... They don't even have any disciplic succession. Their śāstra is... They can't agree among them what is the concise śāstra, nor can they agree on what is the importance of accepting śāstra in the first place. They're doing all sinful activities. So then... Then what is there to convince?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: So why not start an authoritative group of Christians who chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, who study the Bible and read the Bhagavad-gītā?
Acyutānanda: We are.
Prabhupāda: We are all Christians.
Acyutānanda: Here we are.
Pañcadraviḍa: We already are Christians.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But they are seeing us... They don't accept that, though. If somebody was calling themselves Christians...
Prabhupāda: That... It is not possible that everyone will accept you. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Don't try to make God your servant. That is foolishness. You must always agree that "I am servant of God."
Pañcadraviḍa: Because in the class that... I asked that question because we're saying, well, there's no question of creating life. We're agreeing that the soul already exists. But can the scientists... If a scientist claims he'll create the conditions in which a soul will enter, do we accept that premise, and I thought, "No, because that's giving them much too much ground," that if we say that, then by their definition, they can say, "I am creating life. I don't want to argue over the existence or not of the soul, but I'll arrange all the chemicals for you."
Prabhupāda: Where is that chemist? Where is that chemical combination that, I mean to say, grows a soul, generate a soul? Even if you have got the chemicals, you cannot do it.
Devotee (1): Russia.
Prabhupāda: No. The Bangladesh, they were Bengalis. Although the whole Pakistan, including Bangladesh and the other part, West Pakistan, East Pakistan, Bangladesh... So actually, Bangladesh is bigger than West Pakistan. They should have taken the government, majority. But the West Pakistan, by force they were ruling. They are not majority. So after all, they are Bengalis, maybe Muslim. They're intelligent than these Punjabis. Punjabis, they have got bodily strength, not brain. So these Bengalis, in Mujjhamat Raman, that was his demands, that: "We are majority. Why they should govern us? We should govern over them." This is the movement. So, but they're already in power. So how to throw them out of power? So he negotiated in India, that: "You help us to separate from..." And India's interest is that Pakistan becomes weak by separation, that is India's interest. So India agreed to help them. How to help? They organized a false, er, soldiers. You know? What is called? Bahini. Mean a freedom soldier. They organized freedom soldier. And India consulted Russia. Russia was friendly, that: "We want to help Bangladesh." So they said: "Yes, you help. If there is fight, then we shall help you." This was the... So these bahini, sanan bahini, sandana bahini, or something like that, they organized, "freedom soldiers." The freedom soldier means Indian soldiers.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing.
Pañcadraviḍa: So the living entity can enjoy his desires in that field according to his past activities.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he's enjoying. He's working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he's enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody's coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that "You work here," I don't think you'll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do...? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not?
Pañcadraviḍa: The work is too hard.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. That's it.
Prabhupāda: And because he was Mahārāja so he became, she became Mahārānī.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still he's being fooled by her. Those birds I think are the ones from the cage. Because they're being fed they're all, agree to be...
Prabhupāda: ...put in cage. (indistinct) free. They can go away, but no...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like, the human beings are like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśodānandana: Do you think that... As the Kali-yuga progresses the people are getting smaller. Does this mean that Kṛṣṇa and His associates were much taller in stature than we are now?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Vānaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men... Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brāhmaṇa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brāhmaṇa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brāhmaṇa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that "You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brāhmaṇa." Nobody agreed. They said, "Swamiji, (Hindi)," But if there is not a ideal class of brāhmaṇa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, "Become moralist"?
Prabhupāda: Ah, Vālmīki. There were many. There were, are many. Nārada. Nārada was a son of a maidservant, śūdra. He had no father. So dāsī-putra. And he became Nārada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniṣad, Satyakāma Jabala, he was also a prostitute's son. And he approached Gautama Muni, "You kindly make me your disciple." Gautama Muni said, "What you are?" "I am my mother's son, that's all." "Then who is your father?" "That I do not know." "Ask your mother." So mother replied, "My dear son, I do not know who is your father." And he came and said to Gautama Muni, "Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father." Then Gautama Muni said, "Yes, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on. I shall..." Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brāhmaṇa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that "I do not know who is my father." It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that "My mother does not know who is my father." So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brāhmaṇa: "You are telling the truth." Satya śamaḥ damaḥ. Because it is first qualification. So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard śāstra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that's all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That "Our Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn't matter." Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that "You have to give up all these habits." When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the śāstra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation.
Prabhupāda: They are not ācāryas. They are not ācāryas. There is no difference of understanding between ācāryas. What Madhvācārya understands, we also understand. Suppose you are present also. So there is no difference. What Rāmānujācārya understands, we also understand. What Caitanya Mahāprabhu understand, we also understand. So where is the difference? Difference should be that the fact that he is not ācārya. As soon as he differs from the previous ācāryas, that means he is not ācārya. Otherwise there is full agreement between all the ācāryas. Just like Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person, all ācāryas agree. Where is the difference? Does Rāmānujācārya differ from Madhvācārya, or Madhvācārya differ from Śrī Caitanya, Caitanya differs from—no. There is no difference. That is Vaiṣṇava. All the Vaiṣṇavas understand that Viṣṇu is the Supreme. There may be, sometimes, such as Kṛṣṇa is understood as incarnation of Viṣṇu, and sometimes they understand Viṣṇu as the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. That is sampradāya. That is sampradāya. But either Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu, He is Supreme, that is accepted by all.
Gaṇeśa: Does it mean we should use violence to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness then, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. Yes, when there is politics, that is necessary. I am speaking of politics, not of love. You cannot create love by violence. That is another thing. But if you want kingdom, there must be violence. By violence you cannot force a woman, agree to love you. That is not possible. Then there must be love. The business must be done accordingly. But when there is politics, there must be violence. Otherwise you cannot come out victorious. (break) ...in a friendly way. "Might is right." So Gandhi did this foolishness and he died of violence. (laughs) He praised the philosophy of nonviolence, but he was himself killed by violence. That was his foolishness.
Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudviṣa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmī at the same time. So they would collect much laxmī, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.
Prabhupāda: Free?
Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away to the hospitals and prisons. One boy he collected in one day, he won the contest, he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day. Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books, very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books, Kṛṣṇa books, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Prabhupāda: So, you are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa very nicely. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. (break) After reading a book does anybody come and ask questions? Do they receive regularly letters and enquiries?
Amogha: But at least what we know now is more true than what we knew before. And if we keep trying we'll know more.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that means you are always in ignorance. This means that you are always in ignorance. And Kṛṣṇa does not say like that. Kṛṣṇa says the same thing I am speaking to you again. That means we are not in ignorance. We may forget something, but the truth is always the same. But you are making, manufacturing, discovering truth. That means you do not know what is truth. You should answer like that. That you are all rascals. You do not know what is truth; therefore you are discovering truth. Truth is never discovered. It is already there. But you do not know what is that truth. That is credit that you are making advance towards truth, but you do not know what is truth. That is a fact. Is it clear? Making discoveries means you do not know what is truth. But it is good credit for you that you are trying to advance. That we agree.
Amogha: The steersman or the pilot?
Prabhupāda: Yes, the chief man. So the guru is there. He is the chief man, giving direction, or the captain. And others are plying, and the boat is also strong, and the wind is also favorable. In this circumstances, if you cannot cross, then you make suicide. The śāstras are there. That is favorable wind. You get the way. And the spiritual master is directing, "Do like this." And you have got a nice boat and you are plying. Now cross over. Very big ocean in the material world. Just see the sky, how big it is. So we have to cross this material sky, penetrate the covering, then go to the spiritual sky. Then you are safe. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). That place, even after destruction of this whole material world, that is safe. So we have to go there, plying the boat. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "You rascal, give up everything. Surrender unto Me. And surrender unto Me. Follow My instruction as I have given. Then you are safe." But that they will not do. They will try to cheat Kṛṣṇa by interpretation, "This means this. This means that." That they will do, these rascals, big, big rascals. Kṛṣṇa says something, and they will misinterpret. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto, and Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "No, no, it is not to the Kṛṣṇa person." Just see how misleading these rascals. Why you should interpret upon Kṛṣṇa's word? If you have got your own philosophy, you write another book. Why do you touch Bhagavad-gītā? This is their cheating. Bhagavad-gītā is a popular book. Gandhi also took Bhagavad-gītā for his political diplomacy. This is going on. And they'll never agree to accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is. They'll never agree. The other day I was there in Kurukṣetra.
Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology.
Paramahaṁsa: They think that suffering together with your friends is enjoying.
Prabhupāda: No, they... Just like the ass. He does not know what is happening. Therefore he is agreeing, "All right, load with me any number of heavy weight. I shall carry." He does not know it is suffering. He has accepted the service of the man, bearing so much load, and he is giving little grass. The grass he can take from here, but he thinks that "He is maintaining me." Just see. This is ignorance. Therefore mūḍhā, this word is used. Suffering, suffering, suffering. Material nature is awarding sufferings after suffering. Still, they are not wake up. Who cares for suffering? (break) ...stand this philosophy that acceptance of this material body is suffering. They will say, "Oh, I have got this American body. I have got so much opulence. What is suffering?" He'll not believe. But real philosophy is that acceptance of this material body, whatever it may be, the demigod or dog, it is suffering. Who will understand? Even the demigods, they do not understand.
Prabhupāda: But you are the same man. That's a fact. You understand that you were a child or you were a boy, youthful boy, jumping. You remember that body, but that body is not existing. That's a fact.
Justin Murphy: I can't agree.
Prabhupāda: And why not? Suppose somebody had seen your childhood body, and for many years he has not seen you, and he all of a sudden comes. Suppose your father's friend. So father introduces. He says, "Oh, you are the same?" He will be surprised because he saw you in a childhood body.
Justin Murphy: But I'm less interested in what...
Prabhupāda: No, no. First of all think that you have changed your body. The other man says, "Oh, you have grown up?" Or... Generally they take it as grown up. But the actual position is the body has changed.
Prabhupāda: But if he takes, he has the potentiality. If you agree... Kṛṣṇa said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam... (BG 18.66). If you agree to Kṛṣṇa's proposal, then you will, that potentiality is manifested.
Sister: But what about people that are never exposed to Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Then he will suffer. He will constantly change his body one after another, sometimes good body, sometimes bad body, and he will suffer. So as soon as you accept a material body, you will suffer. It may be good body or bad body. It doesn't matter. Suffering is there. When a dog is taking birth, he has to take the suffering within the womb of his mother, and when a human man, human body is coming out, he has also to take the... It is not joke to remain ten months within the packed-up abdomen of the mother. Is it very pleasant, do you think? If you are kept in that way now, you will die within three seconds. In that condition you have to live ten months. So how much suffering it was!
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then he has understood. Yes, it is all fourth-class men. He is considered a first-class man in the society. We say to him that "You are a fourth-class man." On what strength we can say like that? And he has to admit. That is our philosophy. Any first-class man, so-called first-class man, we can also say that "You are a fourth-class man," and he will agree. And if he admits, then he becomes first-class man. Then he can make progress. "I am living, a fourth-class man. I must be a first-class man." That is knowledge. So he was asking you, "Are you living first-class now?"
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What was his question?
Paramahaṁsa: In the room?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.
Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.
Amogha: Hmm. A very high position also. CSIRM. Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organization. He's commissioned by the government. They have to be very top intellectual researcher.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, we received news yesterday that one man in northern New South Wales is willing to sell us a farm, a great big farm out there in the southern tropics. Would this be a good place for engaging boys like the Indian, the Indian boy that came yesterday?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our next program is to organize farming. Let anyone come. We shall give him free food and employment: "Come on." Not that "I want to work as a clerk in the city." You produce your own food. I give you ingredients. I give you land. And work for five, six hours, and take your food and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): Anybody who comes to the farm has to agree to follow the four regulative principles? These people?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise you are not coming. Our main business is to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious. Where you have left my that overcoat?
Śrutakīrti: That is in London. (pause)
Prabhupāda: (break) How they will serve? The proposal...(break) that how... (break) ...they have disco... (break) They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?
Prabhupāda: My point is: if the moon is the first planet nearer, why they did not start Monday? If the sun is after, then Sunday. This is the proof that first sun, then moon, not that first moon and then sun. Hm? That is the description in the Bhāgavatam. One after another, one after another. Sixteen thousand, sixteen hundred thousand miles apart. First of all sun, then moon, then, what is called? Mars. You have seen it.
Amogha: Mars is above the moon?
Śrutakīrti: But the scientists wouldn't even agree that the sun is the first created thing.
Prabhupāda: Who is accepting them as scientists? You can accept them. Why Sunday first? Wherefrom they have gotten?
Śrutakīrti: That was gotten from Greek mythology.
Prabhupāda: Then Greek, where they got it?
Devotee (1): Some of the days are named after different demigods. Wednesday is named after a god named Woden.
Prabhupāda: Where they got these demigods?
Śrutakīrti: From Greek mythology.
Prabhupāda: Greek mythology, that's all right. But where they got?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they say they made it up.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...if people do not like, that is another thing. What is the wrong if I say, "Please chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."? If you don't chant, that is your choice. There is no difficulty. If you agree that "Swamiji asking me. We'll chant," you can chant. But if you don't do it, that is your business. The task it not difficult. Task is very easy. Even a child can do it. But if you are stubborn, "No, no, I will not do it," then what can be done? (?) Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro... You know this song, huh? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says... You have got this cassette? Jīv jāgo, jīv jāgo, gauracānda bole.
Devotee (1): I may have it in my briefcase. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So He is canvassing, "Now get up. How you are remaining in ignorance still? You have got this human form of body; still, you remain as cats and dogs. Why is that? This is spell of māyā. You get up." "No, I am very much... I cannot break out of this. Too much I am afflicted." Then he says, "I have got medicine." Enechi auṣadhi. "I have got the medicine. You take it." Enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro lāgi', hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi'. "You take it from Me, hari-nāma mahā-mantra." So this is our mission. We have got the medicine to awake the people from this ignorance. He doesn't know anything. He is busy only with his fifty years. Nowadays less still, we live, such rascaldom we are.
Jesuit: But a person is more than just matter. I'm more than matter.
Prabhupāda: No, the person, just like... that is... If a man is sitting on a Rolls Royce car, he's thinking, "Very important." And a man sitting on some ordinary car, he's thinking, "I am poor." But as man, both of them (are) equal. Falsely, because he is sitting in a particular type of car, he is thinking, "I am bigger."
Jesuit: Yes, I can see I agree with all that.
Prabhupāda: So the soul is the same. So there is no difference, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7), find out this verse. Soul is the part and parcel of the supreme soul, Supersoul, God.
Jesuit: That is what I find hard to understand, your divine grace, that my soul, your soul is part of the supreme soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes, their soul is part and parcel...
Jesuit: I can't understand that because the supreme soul, God, the deity, is infinite.
Prabhupāda: Yes, infinite, just like your, I'll let you know, just like the ocean and the drop of ocean.
Jesuit: I agree entirely.
Prabhupāda: This is our mission.
Jesuit: And it's good that, I think, we are coming more to understand that. And I think you see a lot of young people who really are longing for some form of contemplation and prayer. That is why you get followers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, these boys they are coming from your Christian group, Jewish group, but they are taking to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One priest in Boston, he issued one pamphlet that "These boys are our boys, and before this movement, they didn't care to come to the church. And now they are mad after God. How is it? The same boys." So indirectly he accepted this process as easier to understand God. And actually it is easier. What do they do? They don't go to the forest, or meditate, or make any very austere, what is called, penances. They simply chant in the morning and dance in ecstasy and then eat sumptuously. That's all. And now they have given up everything. Now, you bribe them, "You eat meat." They will never eat. They will not drink tea even. The method is... The American government they spent lots of money for stopping this addiction to drugs. And these boys, as soon as they come to me, they give up. Ask them what money I have bribed them. You can ask how they have left it.
Prabhupāda: God is not order-supplier. Otherwise everyone is praying. Just like in the last war, everyone went to church and prayed for saving the life... mostly woman, because all men in Germany especially, everywhere, they went to the war front. So all the women, they went to the church for praying for their husband, for their brother or father. But nobody came back. And later on, they became atheist: "Oh, there is no God." Because God did not supply their order, therefore there is no God. "If God agrees to my proposal and He supplies things as I want, then there is God. Otherwise there is no God." That means God is under my condition. This is going on.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, there was one song written where the writer said that the reason the Americans won the war was because God is on their side.
Prabhupāda: So, that is the fact. Unless God desired, how they can win? That, we admit that.
Prabhupāda: So immediately to solve all the problems like this is to start an institution to train four classes of men. Begin it. There is no training, how you can expect if you allow a child to smoke from the very beginning and to commit all kinds of sinful activities, how you can expect a nice gentleman when he is grown up? It is not possible. It is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. But somebody may not be induced to come and join. But if you train him from the very beginning, then it is possible. Just like we have got our training school, Gurukula, in Dallas, Texas. So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
Director: But not our people all do.
Director: Yes, but that is how society works. You must want to change, we have to change. I just do what I'm asked to do. Otherwise I lose my job.
Prabhupāda: No, if you actually want to do some social welfare, then you must take the standard formula. And if you manufacture your own way, that will never be successful.
Director: I might agree with you that of us will be Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Not whole. We don't...
Director: Then we would be, then social welfare would mean something different.
Prabhupāda: Now, just like we are proposing here. I am not proposing—Kṛṣṇa says—that one must be peaceful. So how to become peaceful? If his mind is always disturbed, how he can become peaceful?
Director: You're quite right.
Prabhupāda: So that is the secret of success. You want to make the people peaceful, but you do not know how to make him peaceful. So therefore you have to adopt this...
Director: Yes, a competitive society.
Prabhupāda: We say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, eat here sumptuously, live here comfortably, and you become peaceful. It is guaranteed. If anyone, even a madman, agrees to these three principles, that let him chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, take whatever nice foodstuff we prepare, take, and live peacefully, he will be peaceful.
Director: What's your answer that such a small percentage of the population, tiny percentage of the population, accept the philosophy that...
Prabhupāda: Tiny percentage. Just like there are so many stars in the sky, and there is one moon. In percentage the moon is nothing. If we take percentage of the stars, the moon is nothing. But moon is important than all the nonsense stars. (laughter) But if you take percentage, he has no percentage vote. But because he is moon, he is important than all these rascal stars. This is the example. What is the use of taking percentage of the stars in the presence of moon? Let there be one moon, that is sufficient. There is no question of percentage. One ideal man. Just like in Christian world, one ideal Lord Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but he saved them. He saved them.
Guest 3: Now wait a minute. I want to get this thing straight, if I may. One boy was charged. Now, I don't care what happened or where the flowers came from. I was told and I believe that that particular boy was not involved. Now, someone else may have been. But as far as I was concerned, I believed that the boy that they got was not involved himself. Now, I'm not saying that some other people were not involved. But I think that that particular boy, I am satisfied... Do you agree with this, Wally?
Guest 1: Yeah, but even if you had been told that that boy did it, your job would have been to...
Guest 3: If they say that boy... If I was told, "Look, that boy did it," then the case would have been done completely differently because then you can't then go around and say, "Look, he didn't do it." So it's a different approach, different approach altogether you see. But as far as... I just wanted to get that thing straight, as far as that particular boy. But according to the law in here, we have to operate within our law. Now, true it is that outside of it, you have got the question of God's law. But I'm not that kind of lawyer. I'm not involved with God's law.
Prabhupāda: No, I... I know that. That is not...
Guest 1: You can't substitute.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is there. He must be at the same time... Although he is hero, he must be generous. Just like Alexander the Great. Perhaps you know the story. He arrested one thief. So when he was arrested and he was being judged by Alexander, the thief pleaded that "What is the difference between you and me? You are a great thief. I am a small thief." (laughter) So Alexander understood it and got him released, "Yes." (laughter) This is generosity. He must agree to the principle.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, idaṁ te na atapaskāya. Those who have no life of penance and austerities, don't talk with them. It will be a waste of time. You know that there is verse in the Bhagavad-gītā? In Eighteenth Chapter. Idaṁ te na atapaskāya, māṁ ca yaḥ abhyasūyati: "Persons who are envious of Me and those who have not undergone austerity and penances, don't talk with them." But we take the risk. We go even to these rascals. Because for Kṛṣṇa's sake, "Never mind, it will take some time. Let me try this rascal." Therefore the easiest process is that every rascal will agree to take nice food and dance. So induce them to come to us, dance, and take nice food. Let them come on this ground. And by hearing Hare Kṛṣṇa, gradually they will be all right. This is the policy. So far argument, logic, philosophy is concerned, they are beyond... Because they are animal. They cannot understand.
Devotee (1): I've seen those rocks, moon rocks. They didn't seem much different than our rocks.
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is all bogus propaganda. I told it in 1968. No, no, not '68-'58, in my book, Easy Journey to Other Planets. All childish. Then I told in San Francisco in 1968, like that. They asked me, the press reporter, "What is your opinion?" "It is all useless waste of time and energy."
Bali-mardana: Now they will have to agree with you. It's so much trouble. But the thing is that the scientists will lose their jobs if they do not make people want to go to..., useless things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But one thing is the people in general, they are so rubbish and brainless that they believe. They do not use their common sense. I am also one of the member, but I use my common sense. We have read from the Vedic literature the moon planet is influencing the vegetation in this planet, and there is no vegetation. The moon planet... These are explained that influencing vegetation in this planet.
Bali-mardana: Some big, big scientists, they had a convention about evolution and geology, but they made a rule at the beginning that during the convention no one could bring up the subject of divine creation or God. And then they will discuss.
Prabhupāda: Now they are going to, I mean to say, hold a convention that life is from chemicals. Our Svarūpa Dāmodara told. Japan it is going to be held. And by their resolution, it will be accepted. But they cannot create.
Devotee (3): They may agree in undeveloped species, but as far as higher forms of life, they will not agree, such as humans or demigods.
Prabhupāda: No, that also we cannot agree. If there are lower species, there must be higher species. As we see here is dog also, man also, higher species, lower species, why not there? They can talk all nonsense, but a nonsense will believe. No sane man will believe. (break) ...going to meet in the space?
Ambarīṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: What is the idea?
Ambarīṣa: It's a diplomatic move. They feel it will make friendly relationships between the two countries.
Indian man: They cannot meet on the earth and they are going to meet on the... (laughter) (break)
Prabhupāda: So I am the only man in the world challenging that "You have not gone to the moon planet." Eh?
Harikeśa: Is it possible there's some difference as to the definition of what the moon planet is? They will say that the moon planet is that planet out there. Do we agree? At night?
Prabhupāda: What is your definition? First of all let me hear.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Yogi Bhajan: Somebody has to break the ice. Somebody, it doesn't matter who. Somebody has to go out and say, "You are welcome. Come in." And it has shown response. Even the prime minister has agreed to it. First she was not agreeing. And she is coming in Mexico.
Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi?
Yogi Bhajan: Um hm. She will be there on the 17th and 18th. So we are carrying that spirit.
Prabhupāda: The thing is everyone is trying to be united. That United Nation is for the last twenty years. They started in 1947, United Nations? Eh?
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, '47.
Prabhupāda: And it is seventy...
Paramahaṁsa: Almost thirty years.
Prabhupāda: Thirty years. What they have done? All the best men of the whole world, they are there, but no united, simply disunited. Common platform, they are not agreeable. They do not accept God.
Prabhupāda: Thirty years. What they have done? All the best men of the whole world, they are there, but no united, simply disunited. Common platform, they are not agreeable. They do not accept God.
Yogi Bhajan: Um hm.
Prabhupāda: That is the difficulty, no central point. You have got your own philosophy. I have got my own philosophy. He has got his own philosophy. Now, how we will agree?
Yogi Bhajan: No, I may not agree with your philosophy, and you may not agree with my philosophy, but one thing we both have agreed that you are you, and I am I, and both can have respect and love for each other. And there has to be a place where everybody should be given that opportunity.
Prabhupāda: That is going on. When I meet you I say, "Yes sir." You say, "Yes sir." That is all right. That is social etiquette. But real unity is on the platform of spirit soul. Paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18). Paṇḍita, he is sama-darśina.
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, that's agreed. But...
Prabhupāda: So that requires education. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kā... samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). When one is Brahman realized, then he can see equally. But that requires education, how to become brahma-bhūtaḥ. But everyone is śarīra-bhūtaḥ. Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." So how it can be possible? So we may attempt, but it is not possible.
Yogi Bhajan: There are a lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions given against each other.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Misconception... Just like you have got a body; I have got a body. If I say, "No, I don't like you "... If I say, "I don't like you"... Naturally, when we see superficially, then this tendency will go on. When you see inside, introspectively, then there will be equality. That requires education.
Prabhupāda: Effort is being made, but the platform, the world where you are staying, that effort is very difficult to fulfill.
Yogi Bhajan: That is agreed. That's typical, difficulty is agreed. I go to India; I find the difficulty. I am here; I find the difficulty. But there are genuine people in the spiritual work...
Prabhupāda: But one thing is, just like you said some Christian priests?
Yogi Bhajan: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That "I realize that one, God is one." So if God is one and every one of us after God, then why there is disagreement?
Yogi Bhajan: Well, those... Everybody has limited egos, so we understand that.
Prabhupāda: No, we should... The conference should be made that if there is God and God is one, then who is that God? What is His characteristic? That should be discussed.
Yogi Bhajan: Kṛṣṇa avatāra is in his own poetry. It is about Lord Kṛṣṇa. If somebody of these people who know Sanskrit and who know guru-mukhi can translate that part...
Prabhupāda: No, translate or not translate, we have already accept Kṛṣṇa God. So if Guru Nanak has described Him as God, that's all right. Then if Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by Guru Nanak, and Kṛṣṇa is God, accepted by us, why not put this God, one God?
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah. One God is all right. That everybody will agree. But everybody...
Prabhupāda: That one God, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the same, I am the one God, that Supreme Lord." Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat. Where is...? Find out this verse. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kincid asti dhanañjaya (BG 7.7).
Yogi Bhajan: That doesn't solve the problem of the world.
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we know, "Here is God," then it will solve the problem. But if we do not accept... If I... I can hear from you, provided I know that you are some big man. Otherwise how shall I agree to hear from you? The obedience must be there. A student, a small child, hears the teacher because he knows that "My teacher is very great."
Yogi Bhajan: No, we may try to become limited or unlimited. Question is very simple. There are four billion people on this earth and...
Prabhupāda: And therefore they are not expected to understand, four billion. They should follow the leader. It is not expected that...
Yogi Bhajan: That is what we are trying to do. We are going to get the leaders together.
Prabhupāda: That leaders... the leaders are already there. Now, suppose Guru Nanak says "Kṛṣṇa is God," so will the Sikhs follow Guru Nanak or their own whims?
Prabhupāda: Brahma-karma svabhāva... this is first-class man. Śamaḥ. Śamaḥ means controlling the sense or controlling the mind. And damaḥ, controlling the sense. Now, if either you may be Hindu, Muslim, Christian... Now, if I say, "Please come here. Learn this thing, how to control the mind, how to control the senses," so who will object to it? So if anyone is trained up, it doesn't matter from which sect, which family he is coming, if he has learned how to control the mind, how control the senses, then he becomes first-class man. So we have got everything already spoken by God. If we accept it, then there is unity. But we don't accept, we manufacture something. That is the difficulty.
Yogi Bhajan: Yeah, but let us agree to confer...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Your...
Yogi Bhajan: There will be difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Our difficulty is that we don't agree. If I say, "Come here. Be educated," and if you don't agree, "No, no. I don't want," then how you can be educated? One must agree what God says. They will say, "I believe. We believe." What is the "I believe, we believe"? If you want to become first-class man, then this is the formula: Control your mind, control your senses, be fully in knowledge. Practically apply knowledge in life. So this is first class. Then the second-class men, you see, what is that? Kṣatriya.
Yogi Bhajan: No, I definitely agree that you must be successful in that mission now. And you have practically and honestly taught what you believed in. My idea...
Prabhupāda: No, no. "I honestly believe." Why don't you honestly believe?
Yogi Bhajan: I believe that you honestly believe...
Prabhupāda: But you also try.
Yogi Bhajan: That's what I am saying. This is the time...
Prabhupāda: Yes, you accept this Bhagavad-gītā as the standard knowledge and preach it.
Yogi Bhajan: I read it, I preach it, I understand it. That's in my concept.
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: No, misunderstanding, there are... That will continue. You see?
Yogi Bhajan: I hundred percent agree. When we wanted to join the...
Prabhupāda: Especially in the Western countries they had misunderstanding with Christ so that they crucified him. You see? So this is the...
Yogi Bhajan: We can do all that, and still, it will be useful.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we can... We can advise.
Yogi Bhajan: Your visit will be useful, and it will be very divine to come with a message, with a conviction. You know, I have come to this conference here.
Prabhupāda: Which conference?
Yogi Bhajan: This, what is happening in Waikiki.
Girl: Rainbow Festival.
Yogi Bhajan: That Rainbow Festival.
Prabhupāda: Oh, what is that?
Prabhupāda: Then there is also... Both of them are thieves, they have made agreement, "Don't expose me. I'll not expose you."
Devotee: So that is their agree... But they are enemies...
Prabhupāda: No, no, enemies, they are not enemies. They are simply rogues and thieves, that's all.
Paramahaṁsa: Because if they tried to expose Russia, they would also expose themselves.
Siddha-svarūpa: It's like these so many gurus. They're not actually enemies. They're actually individually working to exploit the people. And if they get in each other's way, if one person tries to take the other person's followers, then there's some clash or something. But as long they can leave each other alone and don't fight and work independently, exploiting, then they live peacefully.
Bali-mardana: Honor among thieves.
Prabhupāda: "Thief, thief, cousin brother." Cora cora, pasura bhai. So far our position is that we are not concerned with anything with this universe. We are concerned with Kṛṣṇaloka. So whatever one may say, one other may say, we don't care for that. We are not going to the moon planet, Jupiter(?) planet.
Prabhupāda: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?
Harikeśa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...
Prabhupāda: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?
Harikeśa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.
Śrutakīrti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.
Harikeśa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.
Prabhupāda: So why do they agree to?
Harikeśa: They're being, more or less, forced to.
Prabhupāda: Forced?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...psychology is philosophy, part of philosophy. So philosophers are better than these fools, karmīs. They are accepted as ass. Karmīs are accepted as the animal ass. Why? Because the ass works day and night without any personal profit. The ass, they work very hard. You have seen ass? And he is working? In India we see very usually. It is loaded with tons of things. He cannot move even. You see. And he agrees to work. And what is his benefit? He gets little grass. But the grass can be had without any working. But this rascal does not know. He agrees to work hard, day and night. So all these karmīs, I have seen in New York, they are working so hard and they are eating only a glass of tea and this dry loaf.
Bahulāśva: This Rahu planet's invisible? We cannot see this with our eyes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Why you believe your eyes so much? (laughter) Nonsense eyes.
Dharmādhyakṣa: There's this psychology book, and he says that the light spectrum is this long, and that we can see this much of the spectrum of energy. Very nice, this book makes many points that agree with Kṛṣṇa conscious philosophy.
Bahulāśva: So, Prabhupāda, you say that these astronauts have gone to the Rahu planet.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they might. That is also very difficult.
Prabhupāda: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. (break) ...kārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Saṁskāra, reformation, that makes a twice-born. (break) ...na jāyate śūdraḥ saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. Everyone is born śūdra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is śūdra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved vipraḥ. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brāhmaṇa. This is the process. Brahmā jānātīti brāhmaṇaḥ. And then, after becoming a brāhmaṇa, when he understands Kṛṣṇa, then he becomes Vaiṣṇava. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye (BG 7.3). Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatām api siddhānām, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Kṛṣṇa. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Kṛṣṇa. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). (break) ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Prabhupāda: Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63). Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter. That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-gītā to Arjuna, Kṛṣṇa gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." Kṛṣṇa never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā. He gave him the independence, "Now whatever you like, you can do." And he agreed. "Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say." The same independence.
Prabhupāda: Then he is not theologician. He is theosophist.
Dr. Judah: We know about God, but we do not know God. I would agree.
Prabhupāda: Then that is theosophist. Theosophists, they are thinking there is something superior. But who is that superior, they are searching out. The same thing: a boy, he knows, "I have a father," but "Who is my father? That I do not know." Oh, that, you have to ask your mother. That's all." Alone he cannot understand. So our proposition is that if you do not know God and here is God, Kṛṣṇa, why don't you accept Him? You do not know first of all. And if I present, "Here is God," then why don't you accept? What is the answer? We are presenting God, "Here is God." And big, big ācāryas have accepted. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, in our disciplic succession my Guru Mahārāja, and I am preaching, "This is God." I am not presenting a God whimsically. I am presenting a God who is recognized. So why don't you accept? What is the difficulty?
Dr. Pore: I agree with you that we love very badly and we slaughter the animals.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So badly love is not love.
Dr. Pore: But is the converse true, that we chant very well and that we can love Kṛṣṇa even when we cannot love our fellow people?
Prabhupāda: Oh, that... We are not... Chanting... We are also working. It is not that we are simply sitting down and chanting. Because we are chanting, therefore we are loving everyone. That is a fact. These Hare Kṛṣṇa chanters, they will never agree to kill any animal, even a plant, because they know everything is part and parcel of God. Why unnecessarily one should be killed? That is love.
Dr. Pore: Love means never killing?
Prabhupāda: There are so many things. It is one of the items. Yes, that is one of the... Do you kill your own son? Why? Because you love him.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. Dr. Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm? What do you think, professor?
Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I agree with you. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: If it is good... Everything good should be accepted.
Dr. Pore: One problem... You see, I keep wondering how you're so sure you know what good is, particularly when it comes to war. I would be a little more worried I think that...
Prabhupāda: What is that war?
Dr. Pore: Well, when you were telling that sometimes war is necessary. I should think that it's important to know how to decide when...
Prabhupāda: No, no, necessary means you cannot expect in this material world all saintly persons. There are bad elements. So if a bad elements comes to attack you, is it not your duty to fight and protect?
Prabhupāda: So they are heavily loaded, and they agree. So these rascals are asses. They are simply heavily loaded, but they do not know why he should agree to bear so much load. That is ass. (laughter) They take great responsibility. You see? So they are asses. The ass does not know, "Why I am taking so much load? And the master will give me little grass. So grass I can get anywhere. Why I agree to take his load?" Therefore this example, ass, is given. He does not know his real interest. Mūḍha. If you bear some load, you must have some interest in it, but he has no interest, and he is carrying the load. Therefore ass.
Prabhupāda: Cerebrum, yes. So intelligence becomes more more who has got more cerebrum. So psychologically, it is... A very intelligent man has got sixty-four ounce cerebrum. And woman, even she is very intelligent, is not more than thirty-four ounce. Therefore we don't find, amongst women, any big scientist. It is impossible. Don't be angry. (laughter) And these rascals giving equal rights. Just see. And Vedic civilization: "No, they should be protected." The woman should be protected by the father, by the husband, and by elderly sons. No independence. (break) ...she is my sister. She is old, about three years less than me, but she has got sons. She is very happy moving, protected by the sons. Even Kuntī, such intelligent woman, such educated and..., she also kept herself under her sons, the Pāṇḍavas. The Pāṇḍavas lost the game. They were banished, but Kuntī was not banished. But she said, "Then how shall I...? I must go with my sons." Sītā, wife of Lord Rāmacandra. So Rāmacandra was ordered by His father, "My dear son, You have to go forest for fourteen years." Sītā was not ordered. But she voluntarily followed. "Where shall I go? You are my husband. You are going to the forest? I shall go to the forest." This is Vedic civilization. And because she went with her husband, the Rāma-Rāvaṇa fight was there. Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. It is said that "When you go to a, foreign country, you don't take woman with you." Pathe nari-vivarjitaḥ. But she said that "Where shall I remain for fourteen years? I must go with You." So Rāmacandra had to agree.
Prabhupāda: So he is not out of danger.
Brahmānanda: Well, they're still investigating the whole thing.
Prabhupāda: But I heard that he made a condition that he will no more be bothered. On this condition, he agreed to resign. (break) ...India the trouble is dissention between Indira Gandhi and Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa. So that Jaya Prakash Nārāyaṇa is fasting, I have heard.
Brahmānanda: That gentleman said. The doctor said. He's seventy-nine years of age.
Prabhupāda: Seventy-nine?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Is there any danger to us from her arresting so many people?
Prabhupāda: No.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now she has clearly indicated that she is like a dictator. Otherwise how could she arrest...
Prabhupāda: So both of them are in distressed condition. I am thinking of writing them about Bhagavad-gītā. Do you think it is advised? They can...
Prabhupāda: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son. Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son-three stages.
Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would ideally become a sannyāsī. Is that...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover? The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyāsa and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You can read, Nitāi, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is questioning, and son is answering.
Prabhupāda: Ah, public relation. So convince them to..., the Americans should take this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement on the shoulder, and because the Americans are blind, we shall give them direction on the shoulder, "Go this way. Go this way." So blind and the lame man combined together will perform a great task. (break) ...blindly, simply accumulating money, but they do not know how to utilize the money. They should take direction, authorized direction from us, and then it will be very nice. (break) ...not these concocted "isms." This "ism," that "ism," that "ism." Because it is, andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ. These all rascals are blind. They do not know how to direct. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā (SB 7.5.31). They are trying to adjust the world affairs blindly. They do not know. So let us combine. Let them come forward, take direction from us. After all, your money, my money, your intelligence, my intelligence—everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭhaḥ (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence. We must agree to take His good advice. Early morning till night, we are always thinking, "How people will be happy by Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" And they are coming here for rowing boat. You see? How blind they are! The human life, so intelligent life, and they are utilizing for rowing boat. How blind they are! Not a single moment to be wasted and they are simply finding out, "How to waste time?" (break) ...is "Crime, what to do?" "Hippies, what to do?" "Problems, what to do?" Why "What to do?" Here is a direction. Do like this." "No, sir, that I will not do." (break) ...to take photo.
Prabhupāda: Tobacco, by which... They know tobacco is bad, and they are utilizing time for growing tobacco and smoking tobacco. This is their intelligence. So blind men... Give them intelligence, these rascals. We call therefore only rascals. People are dying for want of food grains, and they are growing tobacco, which smoking, they will go to hell. This is their intelligence. Huh? What do you think?
Satsvarūpa: I agree.
Prabhupāda: This is the idea.
Sudāmā: And they even indicate, Prabhupāda, on the advertisements that smoking is hazardous for the health.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...for money, the money which will push them to hell. This is their intelligence. We have to give them intelligence, open their eyes. (break) ...angry first of all because mūrkhāyo 'padeśo hi prakopāya na śāntaye: "If you give good intelligence to the fools and rascals, they will be angry." But still, you have to do it. Just like when Nityānanda Prabhu went to Jagāi-Mādhāi to deliver them, they became angry and injured. So that is preacher. These rascals will be angry, will sometimes do harm to you, and still, you have to do it. That is preaching. Are you understanding what is preaching? Yes. You have to prepare like that. At all risk you have to preach. (break) ...world is full of rascals, and you have to educate them. So according to one's capacity let them preach, prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. But everyone can preach to some extent. There is no hindrance.
Prabhupāda: Because of these things. They do not know that.
Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful.
Woman reporter: Thank you. It's late.
TV Cameraman: Any more questions?
Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same questions again, do not answer.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Nitāi: She's going to ask the same questions, but no need to answer. They're just going to photograph her. This is for on TV they will show her asking the questions. (break)
Woman reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia?
Prabhupāda: The same thing. I have got my temple there. I stay there, and I teach people according to my philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness is understood by the first-class men. In the social system, if we don't keep a first-class man, a section, then it will not be possible, socially. Or if next alternative, that everyone agrees to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then it will be possible. That is the simplest method. You become first-class or last class; it doesn't matter. You take to this chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then you become equally in spiritual consciousness. So it is already published in the paper?
Brahmānanda: Well, all the radio stations are carrying it. And the TV will probably have it tonight. Actually, this one purport might clarify the disagreement. They may not be so angry.
Prabhupāda: Why do they not understand, by nature's discrimination the woman is put into greater difficulty by bearing child?
Brahmānanda: That is the one thing they cannot avoid. They cannot escape.
Prabhupāda: Why this arrangement is by nature? How they can change it?
Sandy Nixon: No, I agree a hundred percent. I want you to say these things, though, instead of me. I'm asking you questions so that hopefully that not by me describing anything...
Prabhupāda: So these things are uncivilized way of life, and what they will understand God? That is not possible.
Sandy Nixon: I'm asking these questions for others, of course, a field(?) that is not understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: To understand God means one must be first-class civilized man. Just like university is meant for first-class student, similarly, God consciousness means meant for the first-class human being.
Sandy Nixon: O.K. This question's a hard one for me to ask because it shows ignorance on my part. But I'm not asking it in ignorance. I want your answer on tape, O.K.? Does all desire ultimately have to go, including the desire to attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you will have simply rubbish desires. And when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you desire rightly.
Prabhupāda: So there is no freedom; still, they think that they have freedom. That means under some plea, the men are cheating the women, that's all. So in the name of independence, they have agreed to be cheated by another class. This is the situation.
Sandy Nixon: In spite of that, can women know Kṛṣṇa as...
Prabhupāda: We have no such distinction.
Sandy Nixon: No distinction...
Prabhupāda: We give Kṛṣṇa consciousness both to the woman and man equally. We do not make any such distinction. But to protect them from this exploitation by man, we teach something, that "You do like this. You do like that. You be married. Be settled up. Don't wander independently." We teach them like that. But so far Kṛṣṇa consciousness is concerned, we equally distribute. There is no such thing that "Oh, you are woman, less intelligent or more intelligent. Therefore you cannot come." We don't say that. We welcome women, men, poor, rich, everyone, because in that platform equality.
Devotee: Prabhupāda, earlier today you were speaking in Bhāgavatam class about Ajamila and how by circumstances he fell down, and that because it wasn't intentional, Kṛṣṇa forgave him. So, but still, at one point or another, he agreed to the desires of the prostitute. So isn't that free will?
Prabhupāda: That is free will, but under the point of revolver. So māyā is very strong. māyā is very strong. So when you are under the māyā's clutches, she dictates and you have to do. This is called māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā dura... (BG 7.14), very, very strong. So mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taran... If one is staunchly Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can avoid. Otherwise not possible.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: But if someone purposefully sins, also that is māyā.
Prabhupāda: That may not be māyā. That is my discretion. But that is also māyā in another way, indirect way. So one must be strong in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then he is not a victim of māyā.
Devotee: Well, I was saying about alcoholism in particular.
Prabhupāda: No, that is also in India. That is not uncommon. At least, they are learning, by your grace. (laughter) By imitating the western countries, they are learning everything.
Devotee: I was reading. There's a group called A.A., Alcoholic Anonymous, and they have a treatment for curing this disease. And it's the only one that's been successful. And one of the initial steps in achieving success in this method of theirs is that one agrees to the possibility of an ultimate reality or God. And because of that, they've had success in curing alcoholism.
Prabhupāda: What is that process?
Devotee: Well, it's a self-analysis. It doesn't go very far, but at least they accept that God exists and...
Prabhupāda: Self-analysis, that requires intelligence. But our process is, "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." There is no difficulty. So it is better than A.A.
Devotee: Yes, much better. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So why should you bother about that process? You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Is that all right?
Devotee: That's fine. (end)
Prof. Hopkins: Well, dogmatic, to call someone else dogmatic means to start with that you don't agree with what they are saying. If I agree with you and you...
Prabhupāda: No, you have to agree. You open any passage of my book.
Prof. Hopkins: Well, some people would say to insist that Kṛṣṇa is the only way, that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only way...
Prabhupāda: No, no. The only thing that God is one, that you have to accept. God cannot be many. If God has got competitor, then he is not God.
Prof. Hopkins: Okay.
Prabhupāda: So if we don't admit Kṛṣṇa is the only God then you present who is only God. You say me. Either you have to learn from me or I have to learn from you.
Prabhupāda: So they are dogmatic. Dogmatically they are saying, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." He does not know God and he says, "Kṛṣṇa is not God." So what is this nonsense? You do not know God. How you can say Kṛṣṇa is not God?
Prof. Hopkins: I agree with you, I just... I want to get... (laughter) If we're dogmatic, we're on the same side.
Prabhupāda: We are not dogmatic. Those people who are talking us as dogmatic, he is dogmatic. He does not know God, and when God is presented before him, he says, "No, He is not God." That is dogmatic.
Prof. Hopkins: Would you... Do you feel that those who've had genuine religious, spiritual understanding would not have that kind of argument?
Prabhupāda: Yes. One... We say... I do not say, in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that... Find out this verse,
Bahulāśva: Now the scientists are studying the atom, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and they agree...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us know what they have done. What science they have done. They are proposing all nonsense theories, that nature is producing. So even if you accept nature as supreme, then you are subordinate. You are not independent. You are under... That also I explained. Pṛakrteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ, ahaṅkāra vimu... (BG 3.27). Why you are thinking independent? You are being carried away by the ear, pulling, "Come here." You are thinking there is no birth, but there is birth. Every moment you are having a new life, new birth by the... You can say, "I will not become old man," but prakṛti will not allow you. You must become old man. You can say, "I will not die." You must die. So you are so dependent. Even if you accept only prakṛti, no father, you are a fatherless child, that's all right, but even the mother... You have to accept the authority of the mother. Where is your independence? You are thinking foolishly.
Prabhupāda: Give him front seat. Give him a pad.
Jayatīrtha: The professors can come up here in the front. (break)
Ṛṣabhadeva: ...and Mr. Surface, professors, of theology and economics respectively.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. I was talking with this boy about freedom. And so I say that there is no freedom for us. We are always dependent. So what is your opinion about it?
Mr. Surface: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. Take Bhagavad-gītā. Find out this verse. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... Who can read very distinctly? You will do or he will do? Give to him.
Prabhupāda: That is nice. That is the meaning. So do the people in general know what is God?
Professor: People in general... Today most people have an idea, but they don't all agree. So you can't say that they all have an idea of God. But they all believe they do.
Prabhupāda: No, believing is different thing. You can believe anything. But God is one. So God is there, you believe or not believe. Just like the president of your state is there. One may say, "I don't believe in him." That does not mean there is no president. Similarly, a foolish man can say that there is no God, but that does not mean there is no God. There is God. Now who is that God?
Professor: Who is God?
Prabhupāda: Just like in your state, everyone knows there is a president. And one can enquire, "Who is now president?" Is it not natural?
Professor: Is it not...? Everyone knows who the president is.
Prabhupāda: No, knows or not knows. Suppose I am a foreigner.
Satsvarūpa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.
Prabhupāda: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don't want. We don't want ordinary karmīs and... And if he agrees to be trained up, then we'll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.
Prabhupāda: Alaska. That boundary? No.
Brahmānanda: No. This is in regards to Europe, isn't it?
Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe. America finally agreed to recognize that...
Prabhupāda: East Berlin.
Jagadīśa: Eastern Europe is under Russian dominance and should stay that way.
Prabhupāda: So the Eastern countries, they agree?
Brahmānanda: Well, they don't have much opportunity to disagree.
Jagadīśa: Actually, the Russians were the host of the conference.
Brahmānanda: And they received the benefit.
Prabhupāda: That means they are commanding.
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom I wrote it?
Brahmānanda: From Chicago.
Prabhupāda: Chicago.
Brahmānanda: "May it please Your Excellency, enclosed please find one copy of my letter addressed to Śrī Jaya Prakash Narayanji. I wish that both of you may sit together and agree to join together to work on the basis of the instructions given in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is practical and good for India as well as for the whole world situation. The whole world is expecting to receive something from Indian culture. Why not push this movement and solve the complete problems of India? I hope you will take this suggestion seriously and do the needful without delay. Thanking you in anticipation. I beg to remain..."
Prabhupāda: So letter is already there. (Bengali)
Lalitā: ...after Mojīva's(?) incident. She is very... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: So now what shall I write?
Lalitā: (Bengali) He was busy for the world organiza..., but he has left everything.
Prabhupāda: So shall I refer to your name? (Bengali) So take the... So "Your Excellency, Śrīmatī Indira Devi..." Indira Gandhi or Indira Devi?
Prabhupāda: Gauri Shankar. I think, that Sita Ram? Sita Ram? He is living or not?
Tejas: Which Sita Ram?
Prabhupāda: He is one Mr. Sita Ram. He was secretary. Sita Ram barrister. So he introduced me there, and they agreed to pay me 1,500.
Tejas: For the books.
Prabhupāda: No. For some paper.
Tejas: He is friends with Bim Sen, but he is not like Bim Sen. He's a different bird.
Prabhupāda: Bim Sen? (Dogs barking)
Tejas: He's associated with Bim Sen in some projects.
Prabhupāda: Who is Bim Sen?
Tejas: Bim Sen, he comes with the...
Prabhupāda: Oh. So sweetmeat market?
Tejas: Yes. That sweetmeat market. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...was a Hindu minister, chief minister of Akbar. Emperor Akbar, his chief minister was Todarmal.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him go to the court. We shall see.
Dhanañjaya: Now he's agreed.
Prabhupāda: Then now again break; again make shop. This is going on. There was no expenditure to make the shop, and again closing, there was expenditure. So money is spent like this—"Make it and break it." That is American way.
Dhanañjaya: There is no cement. It is all mud, just muddy.
Prabhupāda: That is explanation. (Hindi)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Because it happened on his land, he was very much against it, but those shops...
Prabhupāda: That is all right, but why did you not ask me? And why you did you not ask me before opening the shop, if you have no brain? If you have no brain, then why did you not ask? You give explanation, "Because that was not." That was not. So why did you do it? And money is coming, "Give me. Send me two lakhs, four lakhs," and things are unfinished.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But that you wish not to do. You'd rather...
Brahmānanda: Just like this other man has agreed to subsidize the Arabic book?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He will pay for the whole thing, not just subsidize.
Brahmānanda: So, so many can be gotten in this way. If they see the books are coming, then they will want to... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...man is convinced, then our printing of books shall be success. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3).
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have thousands of people convinced. (break)
Prabhupāda: Ācāryopāsanam. In the Bhagavad-gītā: "One should worship ācārya." This is the beginning of spiritual life. Amānitvam adambhitvam ahiṁsā kṣāntir ārjavam ācāryopāsanam (BG 13.8). Ācāryavān puruṣo veda. These are the injunction. Without taking shelter of ācārya, nobody can understand anything. (break)...wants prasāda, it is not given?
Akṣayānanda: Yes. Given.
Prabhupāda: Not given.
Brahmānanda: ...because there is some sex pleasure, that makes it tolerable.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the, what is called, topmost ignorance, topmost ignorance, that "This is happiness." So the materialistic person means only for that happiness they are suffering so much, this way. They agree, "Yes." Just like Dr., er, Bon Mahārāja was speaking that they are talking freely?
Brahmānanda: Oh, about homosexuality.
Prabhupāda: "Oh, yes. What is the wrong? It is pleasure." They take it as pleasure.
Brahmānanda: The priests. They're in the theological seminary, and they are priests, and they are saying that "It is pleasurable, so why not do it?"
Prabhupāda: And what is the pleasure? Stool-passing and urine-passing points are joined together, and it is pleasure. Just see their standard of pleasure. Just like the pigs. With pleasure, they eat stool. So they think it is pleasure. Standard of pleasure has gone down so low. This is Kali-yuga. (break) ...advanced. He has disciple, guru, but he knows that he is suffering whole life for this institution. Still he'll not give it up.
Brahmānanda: "Unwed mothers."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And she cannot also check that "I shall not become mother." For sex appetite she will agree, and the man will go away and she will suffer. Is that civilization?
Brahmānanda: Each year there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Brahmānanda: In America there are over one million abortions.
Prabhupāda: And they are advanced. They are proud of their being advanced. And they will not suffer? So we are trying to save the whole human society from rascaldom. That's all. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You see? This is nīm tree. There is many nīm trees. If they kindly accept and follow this movement they will be happy. Otherwise they are doomed. Let them suffer. What can I do? Thorough overhauling.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you accept? Why do you agree?
Brahmānanda: Well, more and more now the women are not having sex with men anymore. They're having sex with other women.
Prabhupāda: Then the population will stop? Will the population stop anymore? Then where is the proof? Just see how foolishness.
Harikeśa: Sometimes they argue that only a small...
Prabhupāda: This is argument. This is argument, that it is not fact. Let them... Women has agreed not to have sex with man. Then close all these maternity hospitals. That is the only happiness. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukha hi tuccham. The husband and wife, they, I mean to say, mix together only for this, especially in this age. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. They get married only for sex pleasure, not for any other purpose. Dāmpatye ratim eva hi. Otherwise the purpose is husband and wife together, they will worship Laksmi-Narayana and become perfect. That is the description given in Puṁsavana. You will get the statement there how the husband and wife is advised to worship Nārāyaṇa, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa. Therefore you will find in Hindu culture, every family, Lakṣm-Nārāyaṇa worship, the husband and wife. Still there are, there is some glimpse of human civilization in India. So we can revive it. In Bhogilal's house there is no dog.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even by force?
Prabhupāda: Yes. By force if you give some good medicine, that is good for him. In my childhood I would not take medicine. Exactly like this, now also. (laughter) So I was given medicine by force in the spoon. Two men will catch me and my mother take me on the lap and then force and I shall take. I never agreed to take any medicine.
Harikeśa: Should we do that now, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Then you'll kill me.
Harikeśa: You would not go to school either.
Prabhupāda: I don't like... Yes.
Harikeśa: You were telling us last year, you wanted to play mṛdaṅga.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Blind leading the blind.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. Did you understand the words, "The blind leading the blind"? Do you agree? (break) ...culture, the basic principle is mistaken, bodily concept of life. How it can be perfect? (break) ... world's present so-called culture based on misconception. Therefore it cannot be perfect. Whatever they are doing, it is failure.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Can't satisfy anyone. Now people are under the conception that culture means that you can satisfy anything you like, any desire. Therefore there is birth control and so many things. So they are thinking that "If we can satisfy all of our desires, it is very nice culture."
Prabhupāda: But where is satisfaction?
Brahmānanda: They think that unhappiness comes from repression of one's desires.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. They think that actually that we're suffering from so many desires, that we must be very poor creatures because we become devotees.
Prabhupāda: So why so many desires? Because one desire is not complete, therefore you desire next. Therefore the process of desiring is defective, and our process is to purify the desires, not to remain in the imperfect platform of desiring, but whatever desire you have got, just purify it. Then it will be satisfied. So desire produced by bodily concept of life will never be satisfied. Therefore some of them are trying to become desireless, the impersonalists. Nirvāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that bring them, let them chant and dance and take prasādam. That, everyone will hear, agree.
Harikeśa: One who does that, he is preaching? One who arranges for chanting and dancing and taking prasādam, that is as good as preaching?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śravaṇam, kīrtanam, arcanam—anything.
Harikeśa: These festival programs are very important.
Prabhupāda: (pause) You have to spend or waste gallons of blood before you can convert a person to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is so difficult task.
Prabhupāda: Let him.
Cyavana: Yes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Let him move. But he is going to cut his hair?
Cyavana: He said, "Yes." He agreed. (break) Is that one of you who said you were ready? (break)
Prabhupāda: ...nice. Here is... This is the qualification. (break) ...island can be developed in a very nice piece of country if the leaders are intelligent.
Cyavana: They are very interested in our philosophy.
Prabhupāda: The leaders?
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why do they not accept it?
Cyavana: Gradually they will. They are attracted. They will accept. (break) ...only here I have seen. All the islands on the Pacific and Indian Ocean are all potential. Philippines, very... The Philippine boys, I saw, very nice. They are not guided. Fiji also.
Prabhupāda: Fiji. Fiji also. Fiji, mostly Indian, but the original Fiji Fijians, they are also very nice.
Prabhupāda: Now... Yes, that we can say like this, that "two plus two equal to four"—this is applicable to the Hindus, Muslim, Christian, everyone. This is science.
Professor: Yes. No, no, I understand. I understand. I know where your argument is going to. But any case, let us beg to differ. Because... Let us accept it. I just want to say I agree with you in this sense. I agree with you in this sense, Swami, that if we do not pay attention to the religious side, then we keep the people in darkness. We have to, on the religious side too. (someone entering) Professor Olivier, the rector. (introducing) ...And this is our Swami Bhaktivedanta.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The principal of the university, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Hare Kṛṣṇa. How are you?
Professor: And Mister (indistinct) Singh from Pietermaritzburg, and Professor Maharaj you know. And all the other ladies and gentlemen.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would you like to sit beside Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is practical situation, that...
Prof. Olivier: Yes, I would agree. It is one of the neglected avenues of learning that we have not been able scientifically, I think...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is my point. That is my point.
Prof. Olivier: This is the point that he's trying to make, that we have not been able to absorb into scientific studies those spiritual components which go up to make the whole of man. And I would agree. I think it's one of the great shortcomings in our modern educational system, that we... Not that we do not accept this. I think basically, as an intrastructure, we accept this. But it's like a house. When you look at all the superstructures you do not inquire too deeply about the foundations of that superstructure.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much.
Professor: I told Mr. Bhoola when he asked me about the lecture, I told him that this would be a problem.
Prof. Olivier: Thank you very much for coming.
Prabhupāda: If there is no audience, what is the use of holding class?
Prof. Olivier: Well, Professor Oosthuizen here will take charge of you, but if there isn't an audience, I agree that one must be careful not to press too far. It may be more in the nature of a seminar. There might be people sitting around like this, and then there could be discussion. So that would depend on whether there is an audience. Students are funny people. They must be very strongly motivated before they will come away from their examination books at this time.
Prabhupāda: So my time for taking bath is half past eleven. They can... You can stay. I can go.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Na danam na janam na sundarim. We are not simply looking for followers.
Prabhupāda: Neither we are after false followers. If you agree, then you come. If you agree—"No illicit sex, no... Yes..." Why? There is no "Why?" You have to accept it. Then you come to me. That's all. If you like, you come; if you don't like, go away. I don't care for you. This is our policy. There is no "why?" You may say, "dogmatic," but it is not dogmatic but it is standard from Bhagavad-gītā, from Vedic literatures. Striya-suna-pana-dyuta yatra papas catur-vidhāh: (SB 1.17.38) "Wherever there are these four kinds of sinful activities, oh, that is very dangerous place." So we have taken it. (break) Now everyone, when there are so many cars... I saw one advertisement, Ford car, that "Bring all '79 cars and compare. Ours is the best." You cannot condemn him. It is advertisement. "Bring all '79 cars, others, and compare with our car." You can have your consent. That is not cheating. So we say like that, that "Bring all knowledge and compare with Bhagavad-gita's knowledge." Now it is up to you if you accept this or don't accept it. That is not cheating. But these rascals, they are simply placing some bogus theory without any authorized statement: "All of a sudden monkey once gave birth." And where is that authority?
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say change the society. Society means you and me. If we agree that this kind of civilization is wrong, then society, what does it mean? They have made the United Nations. What is that? For this purpose, that "Why we are fighting unnecessarily?" So make their settlement, how to live. What is the standard of civilization? What is the aim of life? What they are doing in the United Nation for the last thirty years? What they have done? They simply fighting, the same cats and dogs. What is the value?
Harikeśa: Whenever there is some war they send some observers.
Prabhupāda: That is cats and watchdog. That's all, watchdog. (laughter) That's all, civilization of cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. (break) Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore." Prabhupāda: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). The first term is "surrender," praṇipāta. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end)
Prabhupāda: Hm? What do you think? Do you agree?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They are mūḍhas.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Our verdict is final: "All rascals and fools." Therefore, when I ask these rascals, "Any question?" Stopped. (laughter) "Come on, any question?" What they will question? I challenge them, "Any question?" They know that "We have been proved as rascals." Yesterday, last night, I told that the aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādāṁś: (BG 2.11) "This is the position of everyone. Everyone is fool, rascal. He does not know what is the real problem of life." Nobody said that "Why you are calling everyone rascals?" In Montreal some Bengali gentleman said, "Swamiji, you are using very strong word, 'fools and rascals.' Can it be explained otherwise?" And "No, this is the only word, that you are all rascals and fools. This is the only word to be used." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: What is the problem? But still, these rascals will say that he is right. You see? He cannot even analyze properly, and still he is obstinate; he is right. This rascaldom is going on. And if we say "rascal," they are angry. Murkhayopadeṣo hi prakopaya na śanti...: "To a rascal, if you give the right instruction, they will be simply angry." That's all. Not pacification, they will be angry. Payaḥ-pānaṁ bhujanganam kevalaṁ visa-vardhanam: "Just like the serpent, rascal. If you give him milk, he'll drink it and increase his poison." That's it. The result will be he will increase his poison. Better to keep them starvation. Therefore everyone, as soon as one sees the serpent, immediately kills. No consideration. "Here is a serpent. Kill him." Similarly, immediately we see the scientists, kill. (laughter) That is the only proccess. So-called scientists. So do you agree, Harikeśa, for kicking on the face of these rascals or not?
Harikeśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Anywhere, hell or heaven, it doesn't matter. You induce people to chant. This is the sum and substance of devotee. It doesn't matter whether it is town, city, village. Wherever you go, you gather people and induce them by flattering them, by falling their, on their leg—some way or other, induce them. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya. This is the process shown by Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, that "My dear sir, I have come to you with great humbleness, taking a straw in my mouth." Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya: "And falling down on your lotus feet." Kaku-satam kṛtva: "And I am trying to please you by so many flattering words." Kṛtva ahaṁ bravimi: "I have got some submission, if you'll kindly hear." So who is that man who will deny? If you fall down on his feet and take a straw and very humbly you pray, "Sir, I have got something to say if you kindly hear," who will deny? Who is that man? Even rogues, rascals, he'll also agree: "Yes, you can say what you want to do." This is the process. Dante nidhāya tṛṇakaṁ padayor nipatya kaku-satam kṛtva ca ahaṁ bravimi. "I want to submit. Will you kindly hear?" So any rogue, rascal, gentleman, big, small, learned—everyone will agree. Is it not, if you submit like that, that with great humbleness and flattering him, "Falling down on your feet, I want to submit something"? Huh? What do you think?
Jñāna: I think it's wonderful. Yes.
Prabhupāda: We are giving chance, but we don't want bad cows. We haven't got to agree with their views. They must agree with our views, then they can live. Otherwise let them go away. This is position.
Indian man (9): Your Divine Grace, are we all equal in sight of God?
Brahmānanda: Are we all equal in the eyes of God?
Prabhupāda: But if you become unequal, you must go away. No. His question was they are disturbed. So that means they are unequal. Why they should be disturbed?
Cyavana: Kṛṣṇa says, "All of them, as they surrender, I reward accordingly." So that means they are surrendering in different...
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has not surrendered. He keeps himself separate from Kṛṣṇa, and he is, artificially he shows surrender. Surrender does not mean that you reserve something for you. That is not surrender. Surrender means without reservation. That is surrender.
Indian man (3): I was going to ask this question, but... (laughing)
Prabhupāda: Yes. śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathā kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya śravaṇa... Because by hearing Kṛṣṇa, you'll be purified. Puṇya-śravaṇa. Simply by hearing, you'll be pious. And as soon as you become pious, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ jananaṁ puṇya... (BG 7.28). But nobody will come here. They'll go to the restaurant, club, the playing cards. Nobody will come. We are opening so many centers that the rascals may come and hear and become pious. That will also not do. Caitanya Mahāprabhu regretted that. Etādṛśi tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānu... "You have done so much favor to us, but I am so unfortunate that I have no desire to hear You." (Hindi) So much unfortunate. (break) That I have already explained, that akusam adhikāro. (laughter) Yes. Caitanya... One of the disciples of Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, he has taught us,
This is our process. What is that? Now, the Indian system of becoming humble is to take a straw in the mouth. (Hindi) Dante nidhāya tṛṇakam: "So I am taken a grass in my mouth," and padayor nipatya: "I am falling down your lotus feet," and kṛtvā ca kaku-śatam: "And flattering you hundred times. I am submitting you." So any man will agree, "All right, say." So as soon as you give me the chance, then I say. What I say? He sādhavaḥ: "You are a very great personality, sādhu." "Then? What do you want?" Now, sakalam eva: "Whatever nonsense you have learned, please forget." (laughter) "Whatever nonsense rascaldom you have learned, please forget." "Then what shall I do?" Kuru caitanya-candra-caraṇe anurāgam. This is our preaching.
Prabhupāda: Hm. This is the process. First of all flatter him. When he agrees, "Please tell me..."
Dr. Patel: How he became this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) Ask submissively, that "Forget all rascaldom, whatever you have learned, because you do not know what is knowledge. You have simply learned all rascaldom. So please forget it." This is our preaching.
Dr. Patel: Tell me that knowledge by which I know everything, according to that..., that boy? In Upaniṣad?
Prabhupāda: So that is, Kṛṣṇa is speaking. You know everything. By hearing Kṛṣṇa, you know everything. But we'll not do that. We shall stick to that rascaldom, what you have learned. Kṛṣṇa says mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām... (BG 18.66). (Hindi) (break)
Dr. Patel: ...man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65).
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvāmī, namo mahā-vadanyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te (CC Madhya 19.53). (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. "You are, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, You are the most munificent because You are giving kṛṣṇa-prema, which is very, very difficult." (aside:) Jaya. (break) ...not because he... In the beginning I said they will not. (laughter)
Bhāgavata: So we will make a very nice book display. I will see that there is a very nice book display made with the Caitanya-caritamṛtas and the Bhāgavatams displayed. (break) ...the governor of Bengal, and he was quite congenial. He was friendly. And he agreed that if we contact him and make the proper arrangements he might come and see you there when you come to Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Bhāgavata: I was thinking if we had him for the festival, to come to the festival, that would be a very prestigious...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. (break) ...king. Their constitution, first word is "the king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever is done... Just like we take Kṛṣṇa, apāpa viddham. Kṛṣṇa is never touched with any sinful activities. Apāpa-viddham. Tejiyasam na doṣaya (SB 10.33.29). Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers. (Hindi?) Of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way.
Dr. Patel: Innocent?
Prabhupāda: No, they are not innocent; they are stupid. (laughter) They are not innocent. They will never agree...
Indian man (3): There are so many Indians, they are also not...
Dr. Patel: No, they are also like that.
Prabhupāda: Huh? The simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gītā... Simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, asmin dehe dehinām: "Within this body there is the proprietor." So they do not understand it. Huh?
Indian man (3): That comes after, after...
Indian man (4): Guru, you should go? Then only perfect knowledge he will get.
Yaśomatīnandana: Guru is there. Why don't they come?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Guru is there, but they won't come. They won't come.
Prabhupāda: That is the disease. That is the disease. A diseased man never thinks that he is diseased. He thinks, "I am quite all right." But a physician will say, "Oh, no, no, you are diseased." He says, "I am quite all right." Cancer. And then, after few days, finished. They do not know that "Why I am dying?" They think death is natural. But Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). They have no brain to inquire that here is information that even after the destruction, the jīva does not die. But he does not inquire. He says, "Death is natural. Let me die." This is blind. They agree to die. And Bhagavad-gītā says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre: (BG 2.20) "There is no death even after destruction..." They will not inquire about this. So blind. So blind. This should be inquiry, that "If it is a fact that even after destruction of the body I do not die, then what is that position?" That inquiry is also not there. They are so fool. That is human life, athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the spirit soul. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) Bhelpuri? Very popular. Yes. Picnic.
Prabhupāda: Others, they do not accept. So...
Yaśomatīnandana: Funny thing is that some of the historians, they say, "There was no war like Mahābhārata. It's all fictitious. There's nothing like Kurukṣetra." Some historians say that there is Kurukṣetra and there is evidences of war of Mahābhārata. But none of them completely agree with the scriptures. They all have their own fantastic theories, even those who say that...
Prabhupāda: So why shall I accept them?
Yaśomatīnandana: How can we prove the...
Prabhupāda: They cannot prove. Our proof is already there. They cannot prove. Why don't you take that point, that these rascals, they are contradictory to one another, so they cannot prove. Our proof is already there.
Yaśomatīnandana: That is what we should aim at. We should aim at "You cannot prove your..."
Prabhupāda: You cannot prove. You are contradictory. So why shall I accept you or he? We accept our own proof. That's all. First of all you agree amongst yourselves; then question us. You cannot agree. Why shall I believe you? One says that "He is wrong" and the other says "He is wrong." Now we say "You are both wrong. We reject you." Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Kṛṣṇa... Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then māyayāpahṛta-jñānā—he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Ye kṛṣṇa tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, "Do you know Kṛṣṇa?" If he says, "No," then he is a fool. That's all. This is the test. (chuckles) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Ambarisa Mahārāja, do you agree?
Ambarīṣa: Yes. It's a good test.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our, that stone, is Kṛṣṇa. If anyone knows Kṛṣṇa, then it is gold. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: But we have got sufficient S of I.
Saurabha: Yes, but we need... We require a certain area for garden, and that is not there yet. Minimum garden has to be, and we have about three-quarter of that. So unless you make another garden first, we cannot make, according to the architects. But maybe with, er, by paying some money in advance, that we promise them that, say, after so much time we will break these houses down, then they may agree, like they agreed on the old house that we had to pay six hundred rupees, and as soon as we break the house down we get six hundred rupees back. Then they know that we will break it down.
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Saurabha: The old house.
Prabhupāda: Oh, old house.
Girirāja: We've already agreed to remove the old house.
Saurabha: Yes, but one has to have the open area as garden in order to do that.
Girirāja: So in the layout there's room.
Saurabha: Yes, but it's not there yet. You either have to break down the old house or the hutment. But it may be now, because the situation is more favorable, that they allow, that they believe us. We can try it. We will make a design for the whole building.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Including that... And request them to come to our, one of the top floor. And as soon as the building is... They'll... In this way. (break)
Saurabha: ...plan and we make everything to submit to the municipality and then we will hear from them what is required and we will try to do that, whatever they want.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad-gītā in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gītā and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Kṛṣṇa is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gītā in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?"
Mahāṁsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Śaṅkarācārya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Śaṅkarācārya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Śaṅkarācārya, he didn't say anything, but he had one paṇḍita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So...
Prabhupāda: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Why the other day you told me, "I am now not... I cannot see. My brain is..."? Is it not beating with shoes? (laughter) Eh? Don't you agree?
Indian man (5): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Huh? Everyone, but they are so rascal.
Harikeśa: One famous psychologist, psychiatrist, said there is a pleasure and pain principle, that everyone wants as much pleasure as possible and as little pain as possible. So because we have to suffer and enjoy, why not make enjoyment as much as possible and reduce the suffering? (break)
Prabhupāda: They are vacant?
Haṁsadūta: No, they look occupied.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...big building.
Prabhupāda: "Now you starve. In future I shall pay." "How shall I eat?" "Now you starve. In future you'll get payment." You do not know what is the chemical, how it is acting, and depending on your future knowledge, and still, you are talking like a very great scientist. This rascaldom should be stopped by kicking on their face. Huh? So? Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, do you agree?
Ambarīṣa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) ...if they know the chemicals, why they open deaf and dumb school? Let the chemical be injected and they will be cured from dumbness and deafness. And where is that chemical? Hm?
Harikeśa: I mean, after all, isn't it just a matter of time, because we've already invented new skin now.
Prabhupāda: Again rascaldom. Again rascaldom.
Akṣayānanda: ...say to me what do I think of Pāgal Bābā? And I would say, "Well, our Guru Mahārāja does not approve of us smoking cigarettes." And they will say, "But he smokes cigarettes." And I would say, "That is because he is pāgal." And they would agree. (break)
Prabhupāda: These four principles will make so many bogus bābās as useless, simply if you follow these four principles. (break)
Akṣayānanda: ...that Rāmacandra ate meat. Some people have said to me...
Prabhupāda: Rāmacandra can eat you and the whole universe. (laughter) Can you do that? By... Even Rāmacandra used to eat meat, so you can simply imitate for meat-eating. But why don't you imitate how to construct a bridge over the ocean? Why don't you say that Rāmacandra constructed a bridge on the ocean. Can you do that?
Akṣayānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: Then you are rascal.
Harikeśa: A person really wants to be Kṛṣṇa conscious, but somehow or another, so much dirts gets in the way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dirt means it is not yet zero. I said that all material desires should be made zero. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11).
Harikeśa: As soon as the desires completely change, then everything else is purified.
Prabhupāda: Yes. As Arjuna said, kariṣye vacana tava, naṣṭo mohaḥ: "Now my illusion is over. I agree to act as you say." This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. Naṣṭo moha smṛtir labdh tvat prasādān madhusūdana. (break) The moha is there. Moha means these desires are illusion, like dreaming. In dream we see so many things. They are all false. In dreaming I am seeing that somebody is coming to kill me but there is nobody, but still, I am dreaming. This is called moha. So when one is free from moha, then he's Kṛṣṇa conscious. The whole material world is going on under such illusion. Therefore it is called māyā. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you. (end)
Prabhupāda: Therefore it is said, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11). Abhilāṣ means desire. Anya means "except service of Kṛṣṇa." That is beginning of bhakti. As soon as he desires something material for enjoyment he has to come to Me. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati (BG 15.7). The mind and the senses; with these things he is struggling for existence. Otherwise he is part and parcel of Krs..., mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhutaḥ jīva-loka sanātana (BG 15.7). He is eternal but because he is influenced by the mind, desires, and the senses, sense enjoyment, he is struggling. This is it, a struggle. So when he is too much fatigued, Kṛṣṇa comes and gives you good counsel. "You rascal give up these all desires. Surrender to Me, I give you protection." But he'll not do that. And if he agrees then anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), all material desires, zero. Then bhakti begins. And if you have got a little pinch of material desires, then you have to accept different types of body. It will create, naturally. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). He is desiring under the influence of particular modes of nature, and he's getting body.
Prabhupāda: There is no education for making people a human being.
Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hagel and Engels and those people have got this nonsensical idea that interaction of matter itself produces what we call consciousness. It is not the consciousness which I mean agrees with the matter. The very first basis on which this rascaldom is, I mean the basis is this: revolting against the tenets of Hindu teaching. No?
Prabhupāda: Hindu-Muslim teaching...
Dr. Patel: No, I mean sanātana dharma of this country.
Prabhupāda: Sanātana dharma, there is no teaching; it is already there.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's it.
Prabhupāda: There is no concoction.
Prabhupāda: "They are trying to prove" means so long they are rascals...
Dr. Patel: They are rascals. I quite agree with you. You have caught my rascals. (both laughing)
Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "progressing," that means they are rascals. Unless one is rascal, what is the meaning of progress? Hm? Rascal requires progress.
Dr. Patel: Whether they do progress or regress we don't know, but...
Prabhupāda: No, that progress means still rascals. After ten years they'll make no... This is progress. So they have no standard knowledge, and that is very much palatable, modern progress. Mūḍha.
Dr. Patel: But sincerely by all these six, six, I mean śāstra, I mean what you call darśanals(?), our forefathers have realized God, by all the six methods of darśanas.
Prabhupāda: You, why your forefathers? Everyone's forefather can understand.
Prabhupāda: The same principle, that "You are seeing. Now kill yourself: you don't see." That's all. The same philosophy. You are seeing and feeling disturbance—better kill yourself; you'll not see, then all problems solved. This is their advise. Kill yourself. So who will agree to that?
Dr. Patel: Yes, philosophically kill yourself, and get yourself transferred to a different life.
Prabhupāda: No, no...
Dr. Patel: I mean not physically, I mean as a philosophical point...
Prabhupāda: "Kill" means you finish yourself, no more seeing...
Dr. Patel: Finish your present ego...
Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation. Killing means finish everything. Killing does not mean that you will again see. There is not killing.
Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.
Prabhupāda: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don't remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes maṭharāṇī (sweeper woman). Maṭharāṇī is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not maṭharāṇī, she is Rādhārāṇī. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is maṭharānī," that is your mistake. She remains Rādhārāṇī. Just like Mother Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The Mother Yaśodā is binding; He still remains the supreme. Therefore Mother Yaśodā became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Kṛṣṇa saw that "My mother is perspiring now, she is exhausted," "All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her." (pause) That's not a fact, otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26)." So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguṇa. (indistinct) Huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with me?
Saurabha: About the apartment?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)
Dr. Patel: Truth cannot be experimented upon.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is...
Dr. Patel: That I quite agree with you, and I become (indistinct). But so far as the method of finding out truth, that I experiment with.
Prabhupāda: That can be there, that is another thing.
Dr. Patel: All our physical sciences...
Prabhupāda: Another thing...
Dr. Patel: I mean, ah, I mean, ah...
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa! ( to passerby) (Hindi ) Are you all right?
Dr. Patel: All these sciences, mathematics, chemistry, physics, they have really been advanced by experimentation only. Because we did not know what the truth is behind all these natural phenomena, and we tried to find out the real, how the natural phenomena are, I mean, happening, and that is what the experimentation of the human race was searching out the truth...
Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā, tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśana.
| Page Title: | Agree (Conv. 1974 - 1975) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 30 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=214, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 214 |