Prabhupāda: At the present moment we are, some of us declining God. "There is no God." Some of them have little conception of God, "God is great," but they do not try to understand what is actual relationship with God. They are not very serious. In this way, practically we are avoiding our eternal relationship with God, and therefore we cannot act properly, and that is the cause of all miseries. That is the cause of all problems. Just like if you do not know the state laws, then you do not act properly. You are always criminal. For example, if you do not know how to drive, "keep to the right," if you drive to the left, you may think, "Oh, it is after all driving. What does it matter, right or left?" But no. As soon as you drive left, you become criminal. Similarly, because we do not know our relationship with God, therefore we are acting wrongly, and therefore, under the laws of God, we are becoming more and more criminal and our problems are increasing. Therefore, in spite of advance|advanced |advancement |advances |civilizationment of education, science, advance|advanced |advancement |advances |civilization, a nice dress, car, and everything, nobody trusts nobody. You see? Everywhere you go, a gentleman's house, oh, "Beware of the dog," "No trespasser allowed." Always suspicious.
Advancement of civilization (Conversations)
Expressions researched:
"advance"
|"advanced"
|"advancement"
|"advances"
|"civilization"
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Journalist: But they're demigods.
Prabhupāda: The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs. Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you have got controller here, some departmental director of this department, director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on automatically, without any control? You see?
Journalist: Well, I know that's a question that, of course, one asks oneself all the time, I guess. It's part of man's quest to find himself and...
Prabhupāda: But they should have common sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very good reasoning?
Journalist: I don't know. I must ponder that.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What is that? I could not...
Bhūrijana: The advancement of civilization is leading to just sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Material civilization means sense gratification. That's all.
Bhūrijana: So the hippies have this sense gratification and all the people who are working so hard, they are envious of them, and they use that for their advertising.
Prabhupāda: We say in our śāstras that this sense gratification facility is there to the hogs and dogs, better sense gratification. If you have to enjoy sex life, you'll have to find out some room. Either you go to a hotel or have your own apartment, otherwise you cannot have sex life on the street, although you are too much lusty. But you have to arrange for it. But the dogs and hogs, they have no such restriction. Immediately "Come on. Let us enjoy." So they are better, in better position for sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: That's all. For burning. There is no fruits and flowers. (break)
Devotee (1): ...come on shore and get drunk and make trouble. They have their own police.
Prabhupāda: Military has their own police.
Devotee (1): Yeah.
Prabhupāda: They are so pious and advanced in civilization, the students require police. The dean has publicly requested police, and still they are very much proud of advancement.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The police steals too.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Especially in New York.
Prabhupāda: And police also requires another police. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12).
Ātreya Ṛṣi: All these Indians coming to this country to benefit, maybe we should go to India to take care of Vṛndāvana and all these other lands.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore, this movement is there.
John Nordheimer: (laughing) It's already been suggested that we (the New York Times) are not divinely inspired. At any rate, this book-
Prabhupāda: If one gets a diamond, he possesses something valuable. But in this civilization you are simply making plastic plates and plastic cups. Indeed, in Japan I have seen pasteboard homes. And everyone is thinking that he is advanced. Formerly people used to have golden and silver utensils, but now they have plastic ones, and still they are very proud to be so materially advanced. What is your position? You have a bunch of paper and think, "I am a millionaire." What is the value of that paper? Is that not cheating? However, if we possess gold or diamonds worth a million dollars, that is actual wealth. But we are educated in such a way that we think we are millionaires by paper only. As soon as there is some catastrophe, millions of such dollars could not buy bread. This actually happened in Germany; millions of marks could not purchase one piece of bread. All this is going on in the name of advancement of civilization, and the real purpose of life, God consciousness, is missing. So every thoughtful man should come forward to understand this movement and take it seriously. Why are the people being misled? We just have to try to understand this philosophy, the basic principles of God consciousness.
Jayatīrtha: If they were actually going to the moon planet then they could enjoy the soma juice there (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: These rascals are... I'm doubtful whether they are going to moon planet or some hell planet. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā (SB 5.18.12). Our only formula is anyone who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has no good qualities—we reject him, whatever he may be. He is rejected from the list of good men, immediately. He may be president or he may be this or that, it doesn't matter. Because he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a third-class man, that's all. This is our certification. (break) These skyscraper buildings are no better than caves. They live here, and here is bathroom, here is kitchen, here is (indistinct) room, three inches. (laughter) Is that advanced civilization? Advanced civilization means every man must have sufficient space to live. Why do you create this path? People will recreate, they will feel repressed, so space is required for refreshment. So what is this civilization? Three inches room.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They know that the wave is coming. They run because they know that the wave is coming.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they know how to go forward and come back. Who has taught them this discipline? Kṛṣṇa is there, within. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Kṛṣṇa is dictating: "Now you go forward. Now you come back. Here is your food." He's giving intelligence. Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭho mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). He's giving direction in every living entity, but when a human being, He gives direction, if he surrenders, that: "Go this way. You'll come to Me." Dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te. And that is human intelligence. So far these lower animals are concerned, they are given, being given intelligence how to eat, how to sleep, how to mate, how to defend. But a human being, if he engages himself in the service of the Lord, then Lord will give intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead. This is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. That is the condition. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam (BG 10.10). "Only to those who are engaged in devotional service with love and faith, I give him intelligence how to come back to home, back to Godhead." Therefore, after coming to human form of body, we must awaken our intelligence about understanding the Supreme Lord. And if we take up the process sincerely, with love, then Lord within will give you dictation: "You come this way, come this way, come this way." Otherwise, not. The first condition is: teṣāṁ satata-yuktānām. Therefore we are trying to engage all our disciples to be engaged twenty-four hours in devotional service. Then his life will be successful. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Satata. Satata means always, constantly. Just like we are walking, but we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Others are walking. They're wasting time. But we are, we are walking, but, at the same time, we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are eating. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are sleeping. We are engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are working... Always. Then Kṛṣṇa will see: "Now he's serious. Let him have some intelligence, how he can come back to home." This is the process. And the pleasure of sense gratification, oh, that is also known how to do it by the hogs and dogs. They know. The hogs are eating everything, up to stool, for sense gratification. So the human being, if they have no discrimination, they can eat anything and everything for sense grati..., they are no better than hogs. What is the difference between hog and human being? The hog has no discrimination of eating. Anything it will eat, up to stool. So if a human being becomes like hog, without any discrimination, he will eat anything, that is advancement of civilization? Advancement of becoming hog. That's all. And they like, actually. The hippies, they like hogs.
Prabhupāda: Programs.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The wood that grows big, big trees, they say, in a few years, then these will be converted to food by treating with enzymes.
Prabhupāda: That means there will be no food, natural food. That is stated in Bhāgavata. You don't, you'll not get these grains, sugar, milk. This will be stopped. You have to eat woods. Yes. By your advancement of civilization, you have to eat woods.
Brahmānanda: Like a termite.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (pause) Go home. (Apparently aside) Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: At the moment, scientists are doing so many things. They're having so many hopes. So in about fifty years...
Prabhupāda: There will be so much advancement that there will be no grains, no milk.
Karandhara: Many scientists and doctors now say you shouldn't drink milk anyway.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Karandhara: They say it's unhealthy.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. What is healthy? Meat?
Karandhara: Meat.
Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.
Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdras. That I have already said.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point. Human being means he's meant for viṣṇur ārādhanam. Otherwise what is the difference between dogs and human beings? The western people, they do not know. They simply think that dog lies down on the floor, on the road... "We have got nice, best apartment. Therefore we are civilized." So that is their defect. They are trying to improve the condition of sleeping, eating. That's all. That is advancement of civilization. But that is not advancement of civilization. Advancement of civilization means to understand Viṣṇu, how to please Him, how to go back to Him, go to the spiritual world. This is advancement of civilization. Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). They do not know all these things. Therefore they have been described as śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). All these men are exactly like dogs, hogs, camel and asses. So by their vote, by the votes of dogs, hogs, camel and asses, another big ass, big dog, will be on the government. So what does he know, how to govern? Do you think if you make a dog king, it will be good government. Or a camel king, it will be good government? So it is happening so. The dogs, hogs, camels and asses, they are voting. Another big camel, another big dog is on the governmental head. How can you expect good government? After all, he's a dog, hog and camel. How can you expect good government from him? Instead of a petty dog, if you enthrone a very big dog... What is the big dog? Does it mean the condition will improve? That is the position now. Just like what is this Nixon? He's a big dog. That's all. And therefore now people are accusing him. What is the condition now?
Prabhupāda: He has written a big philosophy on sex life. Does it require any education? Anyone knows how to use sex life. And he has written big book. Similarly, defense also: they are making big, big arrangements, atomic bomb. I am making atomic bomb, you are making... Similarly, sleeping: big, big skyscraper building; eating: start thousands of slaughterhouse. Formerly also there were meat-eaters. But did they maintain slaughterhouse? "All right, I want to eat meat. Just go in the forest. Kill one animal. That's all. Pick it up." So this advancement of civilization means advancement of slaughterhouse, advancement of skyscraper building, advancement of atom bomb, advancement of Freud philosophy. This is advancement. The subject matter is the same, which does not require any education. Nobody requires education on this subject matter. Even the birds and beasts, they know what is their eatable. And they eat and they live. Now the advancement... Agricultural institute, a big college, how to improve agriculture. Crude people, they are producing also. Without agricultural college, they are producing sufficiently grain and eating. Still they do so. Do they depend on agricultural education? Real education is how to solve the problems of life, birth, death, old age, and how to go back to home, back to... That is education. This is not education. This is simply waste of time. Because you cannot change your destiny. Now, take for example, there are so many agricultural improvements. Does it mean that there is no person who is needy? There are so many needy persons. But has the agricultural education improved their lot? No. Starving people are still there. Rather, those who can produce, they're producing and throwing into the sea. They'll not part with it for the poor men who are starving. Then where is the advancement of education? You produce more by advanced agricultural process and then throw it into the ocean. Real purpose was to produce more to see that nobody's hungry. That is not being done. There is no sympathy. This is not civilization. This is a hodge-podge. Simply wasting labor. That's all. Now here, the Parliament, now what is the use of Parliament? They have lost their empire. What is the use of Parliament? Formerly they had to rule all over the world. So representative, Parliament... Now they have got... What they have got? But still they have got the Parliament, the bodyguard, the King, Queen. Show only. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this so-called advancement of civilization has no meaning. Simply waste of time.
Prabhupāda: So work is required. But godly persons, they want to live a simple life and high thinking, save time for understanding of God. The demonic people, they are engaged in horrible activities. They have manufactured so many things. So in this way... There are so many descriptions. Actually, by the increase of demoniac people, people are not very happy, and they are missing the ultimate goal of life. That is the defect of the modern civilization. They do not believe that there is an ultimate goal of life, there is life after death, and what kind of body he's going to get next. These things are not, neither in the university education curriculum, neither people are interested. So at the present moment... This is called Kali-yuga. So people are being misled. Actually, the human being, the form of human life, is distinct from animal life. So if we live like animals, then we are missing the chance. At the present moment, this is the position. So we are preaching this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement strictly on the basis of this Bhagavad-gītā. In the Bhagavad-gītā, there is everything explained. So if people take to it, if people are educated, then things will change in a different way. They'll be happy and they will be peaceful, nice. And above, over and above them, they will have next life very blissful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Yad gatvā na nivarta... These things are all very nicely explained. There is eternal life. There is another nature. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (BG 8.20). This is material nature, but there is another, spiritual nature. There everything is permanent. Here everything is non-permanent. Just like my body, your body. It is now getting older. And it will vanquish. This body will be finished. It will never come again back. Never come. This exactly type of this body you'll never get. So we have to accept another body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Dehāntara-prāptiḥ. It is exemplified just like we change our shirt and coat and take another set, similarly, this gross body, material gross body, five elements, earth, water, air, fire, sky, and then mind, intelligence, ego, subtle body, within that subtle body the soul is there, and after annihilation of this gross body, the subtle body takes to another gross body. The nature is going on like that. And we are wandering in different species of life, in different planets. But our real purpose is God-realization. That we are missing. That chance is in the human form of life. So if people are not educated to this goal of life, that is not helping the country or the society or the human beings. If we simply engage them in the activities of animal life—how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex life, and how to defend, no more—then it is simply advancement of animal civilization. But those who are thinking good for all humanity, they should note this defect, that simply giving him nice food, nice shelter, nice sex facilities and nice defense, his problem of life is not solved. He should be given enlightenment about God consciousness. And if he is educated in that way, if he, by next life, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. This education is lacking. So we are trying in our small endeavor. But if leading personalities like you of the society, they try to understand this philosophy scientifically, critically, and take it seriously, they can, there will be great benefit for the human society. The program we have got, but we are not leading personalities. You are all leading personalities. At least in England. Lord... This group, House of Lords is there. It was always there. In previous days also. They were called amātyas. All leading men of the society, they used to give advice to the king. And brāhmaṇas also. I think the knighthood means that. What is the meaning of this knighthood? Eh? Personal advisors to the king?
Vicitravīrya: This is Dr. Schumacher.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni, the Sanskrit word is muni. Just like Nārada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of, "Crisis of Increasing Motor Cars," in this paper. Actually, we are creating a crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. One Vaiṣṇava poet, he has sung: sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye vilāsa. Sat-saṅga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilāsa, we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu... There are two things, material and spiritual. So sat-saṅga chāḍi kainu asatye... "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karaṇe lāgilā mora karma-bandha-phāṅsā. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motor Car Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading.
Dr. Inger: No. Not at all, but that's exactly as you say.
Prabhupāda: American, they cheated the Red Indians. They got the land. Now they are claiming, "It is my land." But where you got this land? You have cheated the Red Indians, and you claim now it is your land. "Nobody should come here." Everywhere that is there it belongs to... Napoleon, he thought, "France is mine." France is there. Where he has gone, the proprietor? Yes. And with this idea he fought so much. Now nobody knows what he has become, where he is living, either in France or in hell, maybe in heaven. But there are so many places and so many forms of life. And our Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. Just like I am now in this body. Child is in this body. So all of us sometimes were in this body, childish. So where is that body? That body is not existing. But I am existing; you are existing. You know that you had such a body. You were also playing like this child. I also remember. So the body is not existing. I am existing. So I have got a different body now. So where is the difficulty to under-stand that when this body is also finished I get another body? Where is the difficulty? And Bhagavad-gītā says, tathā dehāntaraṁ prāptiḥ. As we are changing from one body to another, another, another, even within our experience, similarly, as soon as this body is finished, I get another body. Now I am working in this body as national, as Napoleon, as Gandhi, as you according to our own whims and ideas, and fighting in the UNESCO, everything, just like recently Pakistan representative, India... But as soon as the body is finished, just like Gandhi finished, Jinnah finished, now what kind of body he has got now? May not be Indian or Pakistani. Now in that body he is thinking according to his body, a dog is thinking according to the doggish body. A man is thinking according to the man's body. So thinking and everything is changed with the change of the body. Just like this child is. This child, she cannot concentrate because due to the body. Other gentlemen, ladies, they can concentrate. So she has to get a different body to have a different mentality. So in other words, with the change of the body the mentality changes. So in this body I am thinking of France, and if my next body, it is not in France or is not human, I will think otherwise. So the whole duration of my life which I thought in one way, that is simply wasted. Simply wasted. They do not know. This knowledge is lacking. There is no such knowledge in the university, any education, nothing. Simply they are wasting time. Simply. They have no perfect knowledge. They are wasting their time, and doing something just like childish, and going on as advanced in civilization, and so on, so on, so on. Now they should think. Simply on some utopian ideas they should not go. They should know, "What is the purpose of life, what is our connection with this cosmic manifestation, if... There must be some creator. Who is that creator? What is my relation with Him?" These... There are so many things. But they are neglecting. And still, they are passing on as scientist, as philosopher, as politicians and leaders.
Prabhupāda: So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to understand the value of life. The modern system of education and civilization is so degraded that people have forgotten the value of life. Generally, in this material world everyone is forgetful of the value of life, but the human form of life is a chance to awaken the importance of life. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated, parābhavas tāvad abodha-jāto yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. So long one is not awakened to the consciousness of self-realization, the foolish living entity, whatever he is doing is defeat for him. This defeat is going on in the lower species of life because they cannot understand what is the value of life. Their consciousness is not advanced. But even in the human form of life, the same defeat prolongs, that is not very good civilization. That is almost animal civilization. Āhāra-nidrā-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca samānyā etat paśubhir narāṇām. If people are simply engaged in the four principles of bodily demands-eating, sleeping, mating and defending—that is visible in animal life also, so that is not very advancement of civilization. So our attempt Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to educate people to come to the responsibility of human life. This is our Vedic civilization. The problem of life is not the difficulties for a few years of this duration of life. The real problem of life is how to solve the repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gītā. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). People are embarrassed with so many problems of life, but the real problem of life is how to stop birth, death, old age and disease. So people are callous. They have become so dull-headed that they do not understand the problem of life. Long, long ago when Viśvāmitra Muni saw Mahārāja Daśaratha, so Mahārāja Daśaratha inquired from the Viśvāmitra Muni, aihistaṁ yat taṁ punar janma jayaya (?): "My dear sir, the attempt that you are trying to conquer over death, how that business is going on nicely? Is there any interruption?" So this is our Vedic civilization, how to conquer over birth, death, old age and disease. But at the modern time there is no such information, neither anybody is interested. Even big, big professors, they do not know what is there after life. They do not believe even that there is life after death. So this is a blind civilization going on.
- na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ
- prapadyante narādhamāḥ
- māyayāpahṛta-jñānā
- āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ
- (BG 7.15)
These rascals, lowest of the mankind and always engaged in sinful activities, such persons do not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. "No. There are so many educated MA, PhD's." Kṛṣṇa says, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ. "Apparently they are very educated, but their real knowledge is taken away by māyā." Āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. This atheistic civilization is very dangerous. People are suffering for this reason. But they are not very serious. Therefore they have been addressed by Kṛṣṇa as mūḍhāḥ, rascals. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ. So we are trying a little bit to make these mūḍhas, mūḍha civilization, to come into light of spiritual life. That is our humble attempt. But it is already said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu: (BG 7.3) "Out of many millions of persons, they can take to it." Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye. But that does not mean we shall stop. Just like in our school, college days, Sir Asutosh Mukherjee started some higher study, post-graduate study classes in the university.
Guest (1) (Indian man): In Delhi we have got quite a big number of good life members and helpful people.
Prabhupāda: Yes, there are, certainly. India is born Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by artificial means... Amongst the mass of people the Kṛṣṇa consciousness is there, but amongst the so-called educated, advanced, they are trying to forget. This is the difficulty.
Guest (1): Physical life has become so difficult...
Prabhupāda: It must be difficult. It must be difficult, because the so-called advancement has not helped the people. In our childhood we purchased ghee one rupee, first-class. Now it is not available. And this is advancement of civilization.
Guest (1): The population has increased so much.
Prabhupāda: No, no, this is not the question, population. Population was... Formerly one man used to beget one hundred children. From Mahābhārata we understand that Dhṛtarāṣṭra, his name is mentioned because he was king. That means at that time people were able to beget one hundred children. And who is begetting one hundred children now? One, two, three, four, that's all. How the population can be increased now? It is all bogus propaganda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So everybody should develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (Śrīla Prabhupāda gets into car) Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam... (CC Adi 17.21). (break) And this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by farther entrapment. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. Jaḍa-vidyā, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of māyā. Why? Now anitya saṁsāra, cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows. He will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be, how we can become immortal. The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words. Therefore he is ass. Jībake karaye gādhā. This is Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's song. Anitya saṁsāra, this temporary world, he is attracted by this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method, we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death. And we are happy." That means you are becoming... This material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses. (break) (end)
Prabhupāda: Darkness means absence of light. That is darkness. It is the negation of light. Similarly, material life means forgetfulness of God. That's all... What is our spiritual life? We are simply trying to revive our understanding of God. That is spiritual life. And when you perfectly revive, that is spiritual. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...whatever you do, that is your defeat. Because you cannot see things in the proper perspective, therefore in darkness or in ignorance, whatever you do, that is your defeat. Therefore we see that so much advancement of education, civilization, but everything is defeat. Nobody's satisfied. Because it is defeat. It is not progress. It is defeat.
Bali Mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). And our thankless task is... Just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say, "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going...? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Medical science has advanced so much that now people are...
Prabhupāda: Medical science has given the chance of committing sinful activities. That's all. And the medical man and the man who is committing such sinful activities, they will suffer. This is the advantage of their so-called medical science. They do not know. They have, they have sanctioned this abortion, medical science. Means they have given chance to commit sinful activities. That's all. So so many rascaldom is going on all over the world, and we, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, wants to stop all this nonsense, and save the humanity from going down to the animal kingdom. That is our program. They are... They have become just like animals, and next life they are going to be animals. That law they do not know. That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). They do not believe in dehāntara-prāptiḥ. That is their nonsense. And now, what kind of dehāntara, change of body? That also they do not know. That is also going to happen. If you become like cats and dogs, you get cats and dogs life. There is nature's law. But they do not know. They're misguiding simply. And if it is so that I have got now nice, human form of body, and next life I'm going to be a dog, is that advancement of civilization? Simply cheating. Everyone is cheating.
Nalinīkaṇṭha: No, but as more people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, there will more of a desire to live simply.
Prabhupāda: That is good for them. That is good for them. Because at the present moment they are missing the aim of life. That is the defect. They do not know what is the goal of life. They are thinking, "We are also cats and dogs." And that is the defect of the modern civilization. Our human life is to achieve the highest perfection. Otherwise this āhāra-nidra-bhaya... Even the small birds they know. Just see how they are protecting themselves. They are also afraid of danger, and they are doing their own way. So if we simply discover atomic weapons for defense, that is not final advancement of civilization. Final civilization is how to save yourself from death. That is civilization. And there is no such program. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). The highest perfection is how to save oneself from these four miserable conditions: birth, death, old age and disease. They do not know. Nobody knows. Here is the process, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then he can solve these problems. That is real defense. (pause) So defense automatically, the small birds are taking. See. They are so alert that the water cannot overcome them. Immediately, they flee, by nature. This boy, his leg became full of water, but they are not. (laughter) They are so careful. Just see. By nature they are defending. Just see. Such a big wave is coming for him, "Yes, fly away," immediately.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Devotee: Computer, yes.
Prabhupāda: Machine. And he's very expert. He'll take three thousand dollars. And others will be unemployed. This is going on. And they are thinking: "Advancement of civilization." Advancement of civilization means "Exploit others and you become happy." This is advancement of civilization. "Others may die for such, out of starvation, and one man takes all the money and spends it for wine and women and motor car." That's all. This is advancement of civilization. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. This is Vedic civilization. "Let everyone be happy." That is Vedic civilization. And the demonic civilization, they're: "Let everyone suffer; I become happy. That's all." And Vaiṣṇava is thinking, "For my salvation it is already guaranteed." But he is thinking, "How these poor people will be saved?" Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān (SB 7.9.43). Prahlāda Mahārāja. This is Vaiṣṇava's position. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. He's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For himself, he has no unhappiness. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Kṛpāmbudhir yas tam ahaṁ prapadye (CC Madhya 6.254). This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava shall work hard, undergo all tribulation, for others. He has no problem. A Vaiṣṇava has no problem. Because he has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, he has no problem. Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati (BG 9.31). Kṛṣṇa also gives guarantee, "Anyone who has taken shelter of My..., he is saved. I will give him protection." Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ mokṣayiṣyāmi sarva... Everything is there. For Vaiṣṇava there is no suffering, personally. But he is very much anxious: "How these rascals will be happy?" That is his business. "These rascals are misled. They are going astray, unhappy. So how they should be happy?" So that is Vaiṣṇava's business.
Prabhupāda: Whole attempt is to be out of miserable condition. Just like medicine. What is the medicine? Medicine means an attempt to get out of the miserable condition of disease. But you cannot stop disease. You may discover very improved method of medical treatment, but you cannot stop disease. That is not possible. You can, I mean to say, discover many means to stop death—that is going on—but you cannot stop death. That is not possible. So in this way... And the Bhagavad-gītā says that you might be very advanced in civilization and scientific knowledge to make improvement, the condition of life, but you cannot make solution of these things, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Birth, death, old age and disease, you cannot counteract these things. Still you have to...
Richard Webster: Do you think it's worse now than it used to be? Can you say that it is worse, the condition of the world is worse now than it used to be or is it relatively the same or...?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes. Worse now in these days because people cannot eat even. The facility which is given to the birds and beasts... They have no problem of eating. But you have created such a civilization that people are facing the problem so acutely that they have no means to eat. Do you think it is progress?
Richard Webster: Well, I would tend to doubt it very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the problem.
Prabhupāda: Many countries... Especially we are Indian. We have seen in India. Nowadays there is no eatables. The government cannot supply food, failure, the problem which is not even amongst the beasts and birds. The birds and beasts, they have no such problem. They are freely living, jumping from one tree to another, because they know there is no problem of eating. And human society, there is problem of eating. What is the advancement? And there is enough place for producing food. I have seen Africa, Australia. Enough place. If the foodstuff is produced there, ten times of the population can be well fed. But they are: "Don't enter. Don't come here." The Africans will say to the Indians, "Don't come here. Go out." What is this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice. We say, "Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We are all sons of Kṛṣṇa. Let us live peacefully and utilize Kṛṣṇa's property." This is the best philosophy. But the so-called politicians and leaders, they are saying "No, you cannot enter here," immigration. America has got enough place to produce food. But they will, although they have gone to the United Nation, UNESCO, they could not find out any solution. Although there is possibility of producing ten times of the requisites of the whole population of the world, they will not allow. They will not allow. On God's side, this unit, this planet, pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation)—everything is complete. You require water. They save three times water than the land. And the water is distributed over the land, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ so there will be sufficient food grains. And annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). And if there is sufficient to eat, have sufficient eatables to the animals and to the men, then everything is prosperous. So where is that arrangement? There is enough land, enough possibility, enough water. Now utilize them and produce food grain, eat nicely and live peacefully and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is our philosophy. Why there should be industry? You want to eat after all. Instead of eating this flesh, killing poor animals, why don't you produce food grains, fruits, flowers, food grain, and take milk from the animals and produce milk products, all nutritious food, all nice food, and be happy and remember God for His kindness. This is civilization. What is this nonsense civilization? Now there is petrol problem. I see so many buses, and not a single man, one or two men. And for two men a big huge bus is being run, and so much petrol is consumed unnecessarily. I have seen. I went from Nairobi to London in a plane—only five passengers. Out of that, four passengers we were. Why? Why this nonsense? And there is petrol problem now. They are creating simply, the so-called advancement of civilization, creating problems, that's all. And that is due to these rascal leaders. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know what is the ideal of life, what is the aim of life. They are creating hodge-podge civilization and putting the mass of people in chaotic condition. This is the sum and substance. I do not know whether you'll agreed with me, but this is my study of the whole situation.
Dhanañjaya: Didn't Rāvaṇa want to pile up stones and bricks, too, to reach the heavenly planets.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. No, he was a materialist. That is the business of the materialist. What is this? Aerodrome? No.
Dhanañjaya: No, this is a restaurant.
Prabhupāda: They can eat down. (laughter) These rascals are thinking eating on this top, this is their advancement of civilization. And waste energy. The human energy is so valuable that one can understand his real life, self-realization—that they forget. They wasting the energy for making a restaurant on the sky. They think it is advancement.
Dhanañjaya: They want to dominate over the material energy.
Prabhupāda: What is that dominate? One kick will finish everything. That is illusion. They are thinking, "We are going to dominate," but they are dominated always. Therefore, because they have no intelligence, they cannot understand. One earthquake can finish all this. All go down immediately. So what is that dominate? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ kar... (BG 3.27). The prakṛti, nature, is giving chance just like father and mother give chance that the children pile up stone and sand. "Let them play." Similarly prakṛti, mother prakṛti, nature, giving all this, "Let this rascal play like that. What can be done?" He does not know that "After this piling of stones and bricks, I will have to leave this place. And I do not know where I am going." So less intelligence. And they do not know what he is. He is thinking, "I am this body," but this body will be finished. That's all. "I was zero. I assumed some body. Now again I shall become zero." That's all. Śūnyavādī. Nirviśeṣa-śūnyavādī. It is covered? (break) ...viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Durāśayā, some utopian hope of becoming happy. This is called durāśayā.
Guru-gaurāṅga: In that agricultural report it said that if they were to eat all the grains that they give to the cows and animals, they could get twenty times more calories than by eating meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wrong civilization, rascal civilization. And this is due to this rascaldom, nationalism, "This is my land." And at any moment he will be kicked out. Still, he claims, "It is my land." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is the illusion. Nothing belongs to him; still he is fighting, "This is mine. This is mine." "I" and "mine." Identifying himself with this body, "I", and wrongly conceiving that "This is mine." This is the basic principle of wrong civilization. Both things are... Nothing belongs to him. Suppose I have come here in Switzerland. If I remain here for one month and I claim, "Oh, this is mine," what is this? So similarly, I come as guest. Everyone comes as guest in the womb of his mother and lives here for fifty years. He is claiming, "It is mine." When, when, when it became yours? The land was long, long time before your birth. How it became yours? But they have no sense. "It is mine." "Fight." "My land, my nation, my family, my society." In this way, wasting time. These things have been introduced by these western mlecchas. In the Vedic civilization there is no such thing as nationalism. You won't find. Have you seen in the Bhagavad-gītā any word, "nationalism?" No such thing. This is the original ideas of the tribes. In the jungle there is... Just like in Africa there are still groups of tribes. This is most crude idea of civilization, nationalism. This is tribalized. It is nothing but development of just tribalism. And eating also the same. They are not advanced in civilization. This nationalism is another form of tribalism, that's all.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Especially in the western countries, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the people do not like to think that they are controlled or that they are...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are rascals. He is controlled in every step, and he is thinking... Therefore rascals. In spite of this big, big house, nice road and good car, they are rascals. But he thinks falsely. He thinks that he is independent; He will not die. Then why does he think like that, like a foolish man? As soon as māyā kicks on his face, he will die. That's all. Immediately. "I have got some business, sir." "No, no, you must die immediately." And still, he thinks that he is not controlled. What is this nonsense? We shall go that side? That is knowledge, that "In spite of my all so-called advancement of civilization, I am controlled." That is knowledge. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then he should think how to get out of it. That is intelligence. And if, like cats and dogs, he thinks that "I am not controlled," then he is no better than cats and dogs. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). By prakṛti, by nature, he is pulled by the ears, "Come here!" "Yes, sir." "Come there!" "Yes, sir." And he is thinking, not controlled. As soon as he eats little more than he requires, "You must starve three days!" And he is not controlled. Just see. How much foolishness. And they are getting Nobel Prize. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19).
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So if they have information that this is not the only life, then won't they automatically become more austere?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) consider what kind of life I'm going to get. (indistinct) They have made their own rascal philosophy that there is no life after death. Although they're experiencing that I am changing my body in this duration of life. I know that I have a child's body, child's body. That body's finished. Still I'm existing. So why I shall not exist after this body's finished? Where is the logic? Where is the... The simple logic they cannot understand. So dull brain. And they're advanced in civilization, big, big professor, big, big Indologist, this logic. The simple reason they cannot understand. What did they say? You have talked to many men about this logic?
Guru-gaurāṅga: About life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: They say it doesn't go beyond... They have to agree that the baby's body is gone and the young man's body is gone. They have to agree. But they say that that doesn't mean logically that I have to take another body.
Prabhupāda: What is the other logic? If you have changed your body so many times, why not change this body? What is your reason? Natural course it should be that I have changed so many bodies so this body I shall change. This is natural logic. And what is his logic?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is that like Prahlāda Mahārāja's prayer when he saw Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva and he said, "I am not afraid of Your ferocious form, but I am afraid of this material world of saṁsāra."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. He has given nice reference. A devotee, although sees God in His lion feature, and very ferocious, he knows He is God. "He's my Lord." But this so-called advancement of material civilization is the greatest enemy. That is not... Material civilization is very, very backward position. Māyā-mohita. He'll be captivated by the so-called stones and bricks, and he'll forget God. That is the disease of the western world. They are very much fond of these stones and bricks, and therefore they have no knowledge about God. This electricity, the electrons, the radio, this, everything machine and stones. They have got, forgotten God. Jaḍa-vidyā jato māyāra vaibhava. The more you materially advance, you forget God. So human life is meant for reviving our relationship with God, but if you forget God, then what kind of civilization it is? You are forgetting your real business.
Pṛthu: So she said that the animals are doing their eating process through the roots, and the men, or the animals, she says, they do it instinct, like before, and the man does it with a spirit soul, this. She says that...
Prabhupāda: No, no. I think the... When a man eats and the animal eats, either it is done by instinct or by intelligence, but where is the difference? (German) (break)
Pṛthu: So her point is that man was former primitive, but he has developed by his intelligence, this advanced civilization, this, all this kinds of stuff, but the, but the bird or the animal, for instance, he was former primitive, and he is now primitive. So she says that is the evidence that man has some mind or intelligence.
Prabhupāda: Because he can build nice building, therefore he has got some intelligence.
Pṛthu: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But the effect of building, that he builds according to his instinct, and you construct according to your intelligence, but the sleeping comfort is the same. (German) (break) ...such a nice building, and his enemy throws bomb on it. But the dogs, they do not do that. So who is advanced, the dog or the man? (German)
Pṛthu: Yes she admits that the man by his intelligence, he makes something up which destroys ultimately. But the dog doesn't do, she says.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The dog has no greater intelligence. Therefore he sleeps under some bush very comfortably. But man has made very nice building, and another man destroys it by bombing. So the dog's intelligence is better or the man's intelligence is better? (German) (break)
Pṛthu: So she says that the man, by his intelligence, will go on, go on inventing some things which will destroy, and...
Prabhupāda: So is that very good intelligence?
Prabhupāda: Three hours, I think. No?
Mādhavānanda: Four hours.
Prabhupāda: Four hours. Again daytime. That I have seen.
Haṁsadūta: And in the winter it is just the opposite, always dark and a few hours day.
Prabhupāda: It is winter, at the same time dark. How happy life, just see. Advanced civilization. No light and winter. And still, they are happy. (laughs)
Mādhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, once you said that to stop this transmigration, one has to become completely disgusted with this material world.
Prabhupāda: Yes, unless..., how he can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? If he takes as a fashion, that is another thing. Just like the man who cannot tolerate commits suicide. Therefore you told me. Yes. One who is completely disgusted with this material life, he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Satsvarūpa: What about Lord Caitanya who prayed that "I don't mind coming back again and again"?
Prabhupāda: That is devotee's sincerity, that he does not go to Kṛṣṇa for some material profit. Any condition, he is Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is his humbleness. And a devotee, actual devotee, he doesn't want. But it happens. Otherwise how Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti (BG 4.9). It will take automatically. But he is not, I mean to say, very serious, that "I must go to Kṛṣṇa and be saved from these material miseries." A devotee never says like that. He wants that "Never mind miseries. Let me chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That is his position.
Professor Durckheim: And eating each other without complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they have problem. They are killing only. The human society, they should be advanced so much that even the birds, they have nothing to kill for their eating. They have got sufficient food. And we are advanced human being. We are killing for eating instead of God giving us so much food, enough food. And they are still puffed up with advanced civilization. They have not even human feeling. These poor cows, they are giving us milk, the most nutritious food, and we can prepare so many nice nutritious foodstuff. So let them live. And if I want to eat at all, let it die. Then we shall eat. Why kill it? So they have no common sense. And they are leading the sinful life; still, they are very much proud of their civilization. And they are suffering periodical wars, war number one, war number two, war number three. This number will increase. Not only... Without war, thousands of children are being killed within the womb. This is going on. If you kill, then you be killed. This is nature's reaction. You will be killed within the womb. You will never see the sunlight. Again you die, again enter another womb, and again be killed. This has increased in modern society. Even the father, mother does not want to see the child living: "Kill him." And a few days, few years after, we shall kill each other. So they are not afraid of any sinful life. You see? The nature will not tolerate. Kṛṣṇa will not tolerate. God will not tolerate, because God claims, "I am the father of everyone." So suppose if a very intelligent son kills another son of the father, he is not intelligent, will the father be very happy? A father is father for the intelligent son and the fool son. But if the intelligent son thinks that "The fool son is useless. Let me kill him," the father will not be satisfied.
Prabhupāda: Factory, big, big factory. So they will have to eat bolts and nuts. Where they will get food grains? They thought that "Let us eat the animal and manufacture bolts and nuts." Then when the animal will be finished, then what they will eat?
Satsvarūpa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food means bolts and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supply. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artificial butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket. (German translation).
Prabhupāda: And they do not see the natural dog is barking. Artificial, they pay ten dollars ticket and see how a man is barking like a dog. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. This is not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Professor: By transcendence, I understand it, the universal consciousness. The search for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. This life, human life, is distinguished from animal life because the animal cannot inquire about transcendence. The human life, if it is not interested in transcendence, then he is animal. If simply he is interested with the bodily demands of life, namely eating, sleeping, sex and defense, these are bodily demands of life. So if we think that "Dog is eating on the street, and we are eating very palatable dishes, nicely made, very tasteful. That is advancement of civilization," that is not advancement of civilization because it is, after all, eating. Similarly, sleeping; the animals sleep on the street and we sleep in very nice apartment. But in sleeping, we dream horrible things more than the animals. So eating, sleeping, sex life and trying for defense, these are common formulas both for the animals and for the man. Therefore a human being is distinguished from the animal when he enquires about transcendence. And that is explained in the great literature Brahma-sūtra, or the philosophy of Vedānta-sūtra, athāto brahma jijñāsā: "Now we have got this human form of life. We must enquire about the Brahman, or transcendence." So our bodily necessities of life should be simplified as much as it is required. We must save time for enquiring about transcendence. So unless we enquire about the transcendence, then we are two-legged animals. This is culture, this is the aim of life.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Jayatīrtha: Previously they said the cow has no soul, so therefore we can eat the cow. But now they say that man has no soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore kill in the womb. That is killing, the abortion, killing. That means advance of... advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. Why? The beginning is that there is no spiritual knowledge. Therefore the so-called advancement of ignorance is accepted as advancement of civilization. That is due to want of that basic principle of spiritual knowledge. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (devotees chant japa) (break)
Bhakta-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bhakta-rūpa: Perhaps that man thinks he has retired from working hard. But still he is performing so many activities, material activities.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. What can he do? He has no other engagement. (laughter) He doesn't know that there is another engagement, spiritual life. He doesn't know. Ignorant. Karma-samjñā. That I was discussing, this ignorance. He thinks working is life, that's all. Hard work.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In Vietnam, Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard that the North Vietnamese and Vietcong were killing...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Now they are killing child in the womb. That killed child is taken in the hotel.
Brahmānanda: There was a report that that was going on in New York.
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is going on in London, in all civilized countries, advanced civilization.
Guest: And they say that there was report in Bombay also.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Guest: One restaurant near Metro was serving that type. And one man suffering from leprosy was given only about one month to live, and "If you want to enjoy, you enjoy. But if you want to get cured, you have to eat human flesh." "I don't eat human flesh." So he started eating anywhere. And he liked one place very much, and he started eating for one month at that particular place. And eventually he was cured. Then a police report was found out that they were serving human flesh by inviting very poor people from the South India for washing the dishes at night, giving five rupees. When they come, they kill him and serve in the morning.
Prabhupāda: That was being done long, long ago in a Chinese house in Calcutta. They'd call hawker.
Guest: Hawker. And kill him up.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Carol: Would the intellect be helpful in knowing God?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless you have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The animals have no intellect to understand God, but the human being has got that intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being. (break) Sleeping, the human being also sleeps; they also sleep. Then sex enjoyment: the human being also enjoy, and the animals also enjoy. And protection from fear or becoming fearful—the human being is also fearful and arranges for protection, and the animal also does. So far the primary necessities of life, that is equal in animal and human being. But the human being has a special intellect developed than the animals that he can understand what he is, what is God, what is this cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, how we should conduct. These things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such prerogative. So if we do not utilize these special intellectual activities, then we remain animal. We do not make any development. So at the present moment they are improving the method of primary necessities of life—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are thinking the dog is eating on the floor; if we can eat on table, chair and nice dish, that is advancement of civilization. They are thinking like that. The dog is sleeping on the floor, and if we sleep in very nice apartment, very decorated, that is advancement of civilization. The dog is having sexual intercourse on the street without any shame, and we are also coming to that point already. And if we have sex intercourse in the name of love and so on, so on, that is advancement. And dog is defending with his jaws and nails and teeth, you are defending with atomic bomb, therefore we are advanced. But they have forgotten that the human being has got this special intellect to understand God. That they are not doing. Just like you are going to be a doctor in anthropology. Is it not?
Carol: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Is there a stage after a person becomes completely purified...?
Prabhupāda: The students, they are going to school, college, and they are talking of sex. Where is tapasya? How it is possible? So therefore bhakti-yoga is the only way of spiritual improvement in this age—all age, especially in this age. No other method will help you-yoga, karma, jñāna, nothing. Bhakti-yoga is always strong, especially in this age, Kali-yuga. Therefore it is said, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva, especially. Harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva... (CC Adi 17.21). This is the simplest. But people do not know what is the ultimate goal of life. They are so much in ignorance. They do not know what is spiritual life, what is ultimate goal. Simply like cats and dogs. The dog jumps over with four legs, and if a man can jump over with four wheels, then that is advance. Just see. They think, "Now we are advanced. We have got four-wheel car to jump over. And the dog is jumping with legs. Therefore this is advanced." They do not know this is also the same dog's business. They do not know it. (break) ...again they have made this car, coming from miles away, but the business is fishing. Just see. Bambhārambhe laghu-kriyā. "Advancement of civilization, we have got car, we are nicely dressed, we are human being, ev..." But what is your business? Fishing. Bambhārambhe... Ārambha, gorgeous arrangement—the business is the same. The skylark, what is called? Skylark? These birds?
Devotee (1): Oh, the seagulls. Seagull.
Prabhupāda: Oh, seagull. They are doing the same business, and after his much advancement of civilization, he is doing the same business. The tiger is also eating flesh and blood, and human being—a scientific slaughterhouse. The same business, but they have got scientific instrument how to cut the throat quickly. This is the advance, advancement of civilization. The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization. If you are doing the same business like ordinary animals, then where is the advancement of civilization? Where they have gone by crossing here?
Devotee (2): I think they went up that path out there, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Here, this way?
Devotee (2): Yes, I think so.
Devotee (1): It leads to the beach.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the Bhagavad-gītā it says that happiness in the mode of goodness is in the beginning is like poison but at the end it is like nectar. Where does the poison end and where does the sweetness begin?
Prabhupāda: Sweetness? That is false sweetness. Just like sexual intercourse. This is sweet, but aftereffect is very poisonous. Either illicit or legal, the aftereffect is very... You have to take care of the children, the child is diseased, go to the doctor and this, that, so many, maintenance... And illicit—then this charge of rape case and so many other things. So both of them, in the beginning it is very happy, but at the end it is very distressing. That is material happiness. Everyone knows it, that it is distasteful. But still, he does that. Tṛpyanti neha kṛpanāḥ bahu-duḥkha-bhājaḥ (SB 7.9.45). Therefore this kṛpanāḥ... Kṛpanāḥ means miser or foolish person.
Prabhupāda: It is being misinterpreted still now. That means it was violated from the very beginning. And they are violating. "Thou shall not kill"; he is killing. That's all. That is the position.
Paramahaṁsa: They also have that "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are very expert in doing that. That is advanced civilization. Now they are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now of this priestly class?
Paramahaṁsa: They have another thing now where they, a man goes to the doctor and has an operation to change his sex from man to woman.
Prabhupāda: Sex. Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Or from woman to man. That's called transvestites.
Prabhupāda: That is going on?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Successful?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, sometimes. Sometimes they have some difficulties, but they have had many successful operations. (break) She can't have... It can't have a baby. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: They are doing?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, they're changing, but they can't become pregnant. That's the only thing. They take these special hormones, and then they can grow breasts and everything just like a woman. But they can't become pregnant.
Amogha: In the newspaper there was an article about two weeks ago about a Christian church in America where they have a naked dancer come.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Amogha: They had a lady who dances, taking off her clothes, so the people will come to church. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Prabhupāda: Not jet, zeplin.
Amogha: Oh, with the air and gas inside.
Prabhupāda: Yes. His son's name was Meghadūta. He was flying above the cloud. Therefore his name was Megha. Megha means cloud. They were so much advanced in civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: What kind of civilization was in South America at that time?
Prabhupāda: The same like. Therefore these Mexicans, South American, they resemble therefore almost Indian body.
Amogha: They also eat food... They eat a food similar to the cāpāṭi.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Tortillas.
Prabhupāda: Cāpāṭi, in Middle East also they eat.
Devotee (1): Yes, in Lebanon.
Paramahaṁsa: In Tehran we saw those big cāpāṭis.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Six feet long.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so big. One cāpāṭi is sufficient for the whole family. They are sold in market, purchased.
Śrutakīrti: Very cheaply.
Prabhupāda: A very good bus.
Paramahaṁsa: Practically every one of these cars only has one person in it.
Devotee (1): So actually, they have not advanced technologically from the civilizations of Rāvaṇa's time?
Prabhupāda: That is not civilization. Technological advancement is not civilization. It is the advancement of ugra knowledge. Real civilization is to advance in Brahman knowledge. If there are brāhmaṇas, that is advancement. This is not advancement because they do not know what is advancement. They have no knowledge that "I have to die, and I have to accept another body after death." They do not know it. So long this body is there, they are trying to have very comfortable position. But they do not know that after this body, he has to accept another body. So how this technology will help him? If, in this life, by technological advancement you live very comfortably, and next life you become a dog, then where is the advancement? That they do not know. Suppose... We have got visa for two weeks?
Paramahaṁsa: Three weeks.
Prabhupāda: Three weeks. Now, if in Perth I begin one big skyscraper building and then after three weeks I am kicked out, then is that very good intelligence? I know that I shall remain here for three weeks, and if I begin one skyscraper building, and then, during the time of constructing or, say, after the construction is finished, I am kicked out, then where is that intelligence? Just like Napoleon. He wanted to construct that arch. You have not seen.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes.
Devotee (1): Even his disciples denounced him when they were going to crucify him. They said, "Oh, I do not know Jesus."
Prabhupāda: (break) ...they are after zeros. Caitanya Mahāprabhu sa..., śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ govinda-viraheṇa me. Śūnyāyitam means zero. (break) Advancement of civilization is zero. If you add many thousands of zero, does the value increases?
Amogha: No.
Prabhupāda: It remains zero.
Amogha: Big zero.
Prabhupāda: There must be one. Then it will increase the value. That one, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will make this material civilization hundred times important. And without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are all zeros. (break) ...next life, supposing hypothetically I am going to be a dog, then what is this civilization? But that you cannot say, "No, I am not going to be dog," because you do not know. You are under the, completely under the grip of material nature. And there are cats and dogs. How you can guarantee that you are not going to be a dog? Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. You will get another body. So how you can say that "No, I am not going to be a dog"? You cannot say; you are not independent. You cannot make your choice. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa (SB 3.31.1). By your work, it will be decided by higher authorities. Then how you can say, "No, no, I am not... There is no life, there is no..." It is all nonsense. Therefore without this knowledge, all this material opulence, it is all zero. It may be some fact for fifty or sixty years, but the world is not for fifty or sixty years, for millions and millions of years. (end)
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Many karmīs think that you are born and then you die and then finish.
Prabhupāda: No. That is not the fact. You are born a child, then you get a youthful body, where you are finished? Does it mean that when the childish body is finished, the soul is also finished? Why he remembers, "Oh I was a child like this." This is simple argument. Where you are finished?
Madhudviṣa: You can see the progression. When you are born you are small...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: ...when you die, you are big.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So that is progression. So how can they say that progression will stop?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another foolishness to say like that, that with the body everything is finished. Where it is finished? (break) ...supposed to be educated, advanced in civilization, and this simple truth they cannot understand. Mūḍha. Where is finishing? Why you are trying to live for many years? Why don't you welcome death? (devotees begin kīrtana) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (end)
Australian devotee 6: They say at death, there is death then finish.
Prabhupāda: But if you will be finished, then why you are attempting so much? Sit down now. Why you are making advancement of civilization?
Australian devotee 6: For their children, they say.
Prabhupāda: If you advance in civilization or do not advance in civilization, you will die. That is sure. Then why do you labor so much? Huh? The animals, they do not labor so much. They live peacefully on the condition of the nature. Why do you labor so much? If the result is the same—the animal will die and you will die—then why you are laboring so much for nothing? That means they have no common sense even. Therefore they are rascals. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "If you think there was no life before this body and if you think that there will be no life after this body, then why you are anxious for the body of your brothers and sisters?" So all these philosophies have been discussed in Bhagavad-gītā. After all, the conclusion is that they are all rascals. That's all. We have to take them as such rascals. After death everything is finished—that a child knows—but why you are making so permanent building? Piling, (imitates pile driver sound) "Donkhs!
Prabhupāda: Oh. Then invite them and give them nice feast, yes. Make arrangement. Time, whatever suitable time you will fix up, I...
Jayatīrtha: We'll discuss it with Upendra when is the best time. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...hīna paśubhiḥ samānaḥ. "As soon as one become bereft of religion, he's animal." That's all. That is the difference between animals and man. They think to become polished animal is advancement of civilization. To become lion is advancement of civilization. "Because I am stronger than the dog therefore I am civilized." Americans think like that. "Because we are stronger than the Chinese dog or Russian cat, therefore I am civilized." (laughs) This is going on. "Because I am tiger, I am lion..." He doesn't think that after, "You be tiger or lion; You are animal." Just see. (break) ...puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. Śva-viḍ-varāha uṣṭra-kharaiḥ. I think we were discussing this verse? Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. (break)
Brahmānanda: ...verse would you like to read from this morning?
Prabhupāda: Yes, Sixth Canto, Ajamila. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...got this coat?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gurukṛpa Mahārāja. He got it made in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. I see that it is not American. (break) ...umbrellas. (break) ...this place?
Jayatīrtha: This is a place where they have social functions.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (break) So many dogs, "best friends." (break) ...they have erased, "No dogs on beach," "Dogs on beach." (laughter) Just see how lawful they are. (break) How many books are pending? Rāmeśvara?
Rāmeśvara: I think we have just added one more in the Sixth Canto since you have started translating it.
Dharmādhyakṣa: Spit?
Prabhupāda: This is the test. So long we have got taste for this material enjoyment, that means we are not advanced. Therefore the Vedic civilization is, voluntarily they give up this household life and become a sannyāsī, where there is no need of sex life. Then, after sannyāsa life, he becomes paramahaṁsa. That is Vedic civilization.
Dr. Gerson: I've noticed changes just in the few months that I've been among the devotees, in myself, and they've been in that direction, and it's a very nice feeling to be able to feel, at least in small part, into the spiritual world.
Prabhupāda: The Vedic civilization, therefore, teaches the student, brahmacārī, how to remain without sex life. Those who are unable to continue that, they are allowed, "All right, be married life." And that is also for twenty-five years. A student remains brahmacārī up to twenty-five years, and if we wants to take this sex license-household life means sex life—so he can get the license for twenty-five years more. So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them. Of course, according to the principle, they are not fit for sannyāsa, but because Caitanya Mahāprabhu also took sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years... Śaṅkarācārya took sannyāsa at the age of eight years. He lived only for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. So for ordinary man, sannyāsa is difficult. But for preaching work, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's footprints we are trying to follow.
Bahulāśva: So the soul is the conscious worker of the body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. A little mistake will cause disaster. Therefore education means to protect him from committing mistake. This is education. And if you keep him in the darkness, what is the value of education? (aside:) Get that switch on. Education means enlightenment. One should know "What I am? I am this body or something else other than the body?" This is education. That is self-realization. "Oh, I am not this body; I am soul. And I am simply working for the body? What I am doing for me? I say, 'It is my body,' so I am working for my, and what for the 'I?' " Where is that education? If you simply take care of "my" and don't take care of "I," is that education? That taking care of "my" is done by the dog, and taking care of "I" is done by the human being. That is the difference. The dog, as soon as he sees another foreign dog in that neighborhood, he begins barking, "Gow! Gow! Gow!" So we are doing the same business in the immigration department: "Why you have come? Have you got visa?" This is civilization, but the dog's business. "Gow! Gow!" In Paris I went without visa, and they detained me for four hours. Well, a human being has come here. Why the immigration law so strict? But that is advancement of civilization.
Prabhupāda: ...which is fact? The dreams and phases of different life while passing through, they are facts or I am fact? What is your answer? We are teaching that, you take care of the fact, not of the dreams. That is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). We are changing circumstances. The circumstances are not fact but the whole world is taking care of the circumstances not of the sheer fact. This is the defect of modern civilization. We are very much serious about the passing on circumstances, but we are not serious about the person who is going through the circumstances. This is the whole defect of modern civilization. And that is the beginning of real life. If we take care of the circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how to defense—these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable. And that you cannot do. You also eat fish, but you jump over and take a fish. You cannot do that. But he can do that. He is more expert than you. (guests chuckle) Yes. In the troubled water, he is flying. He can see a small fish and immediately pick it up. Can you do that? So he is more advanced in civilization. (laughter) He knows his techniques. He is greater scientist than you. You cannot do this. A vulture goes seven miles up, and he can see where is a dead body. So even amongst the animals there are many expert scientists than our so-called scientists. But what that science will help? That science may help how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex. That's all. And that is being done by the animals. It doesn't require any advanced scientific knowledge. Real scientific knowledge is who is God, to know. That is meant for human being, Not this where to find out a fish very expertly.
Satsvarūpa: Oh, yes. There's a very high altitude. It's a mile high. They call it "the mile high city." Because it's five thousand feet above sea level. It's supposed to be good for health.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...in India up country. Up country, in northern India. It is very good health, Punjab, because up country. (break) ...place Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says,
- māṭā yasya gṛhe nāsti
- bhāryā cāpriya-vādinī
- aranyaṁ tena gantavyaṁ
- yathāranyaṁ tathā gṛham
A man who hasn't affectionate mother at home, neither very good wife, so he should immediately give up that home and go to the forest because for him it is as good, either you remain in forest or in home." (chuckles) How intelligent.
- māṭā yasya gṛhe nāsti
- bhāryā cāpriya-vādinī
- aranyaṁ tena gantavyaṁ
- yathāranyaṁ tathā gṛham
(break) ...formerly at least one expected love from mother. That is also being finished. This is the advancement of civilization. Even mother is also not reliable, what to speak of others. A small child sleeps very sound on the lap of the mother because it thinks, "Now I am safe." And the mother is killing child. This is the advancement of civilization. (break) ...has been many cases, a polluted woman has killed his child on account of paramour. In India there have been many cases, killed a grown up child. In recently one of our Godbrother's wife. You know that?
Brahmānanda: She killed her son.
Jagadīśa: If you like, you can speak or we can go.
Prabhupāda: You want me to speak? I can speak. Shall I speak? Yesterday in San Diego one press representative met me. So I told that America is advanced in material civilization, all comforts of bodily concept of life. But why the American young men are becoming hippies and crazy. Yesterday, I saw, some of the girls came almost naked. So why they are dissatisfied in spite of so much material advancement? They have got enough food, enough shelter, enough clothing, enough cars and everything. There is no scarcity. Why they are disappointed? Can you answer, why they are disappointed? It means they requires spiritual fulfillment of desire. That is the nature. When in the primitive stage of life, a man is concerned about the bodily comforts. And when one is advanced or satisfied—not satisfied; advanced—in our bodily concept of life, the next question is about spiritual life. So America is in that point, specially. So unless you fulfill their spiritual needs, they will remain in such disturbing condition. So I compared it just like there are many zeros: one zero, two zero, three zero, or hundreds and millions of zero. All these zeros together—the value is zero. But if there is one, then one and zero, it makes 10. The ten times of one value increases. Another zero, it is hundred. Another zero, it is thousand. Similarly, this material advancement of America, if it is added with God consciousness, then the value will increase. Otherwise, it will remain zero. You may advance materially as far as possible. but if you don't take God consciousness or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then the value of all this material advancement is equal to zero. Nobody will be satisfied. So therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be taken very seriously. It is the finishing touch of American advancement of material comforts. Then people will be very happy, and America is already leader of the world. They will be first-class leader. The world will be benefited, and you will be benefited. And my endeavor will be also successful. Don't keep yourself in zero. Take the one. Then it will be very nice. Just like... You can understand very easily. This life, very important man, but if there is no spirit soul, it is zero. It has no value. However an important man may be, when the spirit soul is out of the body, it is a lump of matter; it has no value. Anything you take—this machine, that machine, any machine—if somebody, some spiritual being, some living being is not tackling it, what is the value? No value. Therefore, everywhere this spiritual consciousness must be there. Otherwise it is zero.
Prabhupāda: ...self-independent, or self dependent.
Bhāgavata: If we build up enough trade, tourist trade, like that in the guesthouse, then Māyāpur can maintain itself very easily.
Prabhupāda: So do it. (break) ...of the modern civilization, they are thinking that having such nice house, nice motorcar, nice road, nice machine, nice dress, nice woman, they will be happy. This is advancement of civilization. What is this? Don't drink, don't smoke, no meat, simply denying, denying? This is civilization. They think "This is practical. And after death who is going to take care?" Bhasmī-bhutasya dehasya kutaḥ punar-āgamano bhavet: "When the body is finished, burning into ashes, who is coming, and who is responsible?" This is atheistic civilization. (break) ...artha-maninaḥ. External energy, that is everything. Within the body there is the soul. They deny it. There is no soul, body is everything, and enjoy bodily enjoyment. That's all. And our philosophy immediately condemns that "Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13); he is animal." So this is a park?
Indian man: A small park.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Prabhupāda: That I am explaining. The day and night is that pig is working. That I am explaining. Then what is the difference between the pig and me if I am also working hard like that pig? Huh?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: There's no difference.
Prabhupāda: Then why you say you are advanced civilization? That is forbidden. Kaṣṭan kāmān na arhati. It is not desirable; it is not good. You are given this body different from this pig because you will live peacefully and happily. Why should you accept kaṣṭan kāman, so hardship? Actually they do not want to work hard. Otherwise why the proprietor, the capitalist, they leave the factory and go to a solitary place? Why does he go?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't find any happiness even in the hard work.
Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?
Upendra: They say they worked hard to get there.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Upendra: They worked hard to get there.
Harikeśa: Do you want another cover, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No. This is all right. (break) ...the male, that one.
Brahmānanda: The red one?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also male. (break) ...for their family. Gṛha-vratānām. Wife, children, they are also enjoying. Viṣayaḥ khalu... This wife and children and material happiness he will get in any form of life. So if the human life is also the same thing, then where is the benefit? But they are proud that "The... They are loitering on the..., without any home. We have constructed this home. Therefore we are advanced." This is their philosophy. The business is the same. "That's all right. But we are improved." This is advancement. Business is the punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30), the same sex, same eating, the same sleeping, same defending, but in an improved way. Even in the heavenly planet, wherever you go, the same thing, simply... Just like this country and Europe, the standard of living different, but the business is the same. And the... When they improve or so-call improve the standard of living, they think, "Now we are advanced." And what about your death? (aside:) Stop. The chicken is also dying; you are also dying. What is your improvement? That they cannot say. Real problem they cannot solve. Simply a little high standard of living, and they think this is advancement. And the Western civilization is influencing all other parts of the world in that way—"Improve the standard of living." There is no improvement, but it is māyā; they are thinking, "This is improvement."
Indian man: On a rainy day is it possible to go swimming? On a rainy day... Some people say you mustn't go near water on a rainy day.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not speaking in detail. But by practical experience we can see that these men are not as efficient as the small fish. That is my point. They have advanced in civilization, so many scientists' brain, but they are not enough intelligent more than the fish. That is my point. Am I right or wrong?
Devotee (4): Right. Jaya.
Prabhupāda: If swimming is enjoyable, then let them swim always. Why they cannot?
Indian man: Actually, I go swimming...
Prabhupāda: And the fishes are swimming always. So who is more intelligent, the fish or the man?
Indian man: Well, summertime I go swimming always, you know.
Prabhupāda: Don't speak about yourself. I am speaking generally. You may be very expert, but how long you will swim? How long you can swim?
Indian man: Five minutes. Ten minutes.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Finished your business. But the fishes are swimming twenty-four hours. If we ask all these young men that "Who is expert? The fish or you are expert?" What will be the answer?
Devotee (3): They'll say he is. He will say he is.
Dr. Patel: Air conditioning is not necessary. (break)
Prabhupāda: That is life. This artificial life is no life. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has described this modern civilization of artificial life. So he says, jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. He declares all these artificial way of life, advancement of material civilization, means advancement of influence of māyā. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyāra vaibhava. Expansion of the influence of māyā. Then? What is the result? The result is anitya saṁsāre, moho janmeiya. Jaḍā vidyā sab, māyār vaibhava, tomāra bhajane badha. māyā means forgetfulness of God. This is māyā. māyā means the more you forget Kṛṣṇa, the more you are involved in māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So māyā's business is to cover you more and more as you forget Kṛṣṇa. This is māyā's business. So therefore, expansion of māyā's influence means forgetting Kṛṣṇa. Tomāra bhajane badha. They're all hindrances only to make spiritual progress and to understand God. So what is the net result? The net result is anitya saṁsāre, moha janmeiyā. We are already attached to this material world, which is temporary. By this expansion of māyā's influence we become more attached. Attachment is already there, but we become more and more attached. In this way, jība ke karaye gadha. So he is already ass; he becomes first-class ass. That's all. (laughter) Is that all right? Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has analyzed. "He is already an ass," sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Khara means ass. "But he becomes a first-class ass." So you'll find all these rascals, materialists, they are all first-class asses, that's all. Every day you find they are discovering new theory, new theory: "Atom, electron, this tron, that tron." Not the jīvātmā. They remain the same ass, first-class ass, scientific ass. They are finding out so many atoms, electrons, this tron, that tron, not that one ten-thousandth part of God. That they cannot find. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca jīva-bhāgo sa vijñeyaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). They have not come to that point, that one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair is the jīva, living entity. They have not come to that, neither they'll be able to come to that, because they remain ass, more and more ass, first-class ass, O.K. ass and then going on, the quality of ass.
Prabhupāda: That is the process, but if somebody comes to Kṛṣṇa with some material motive, he also becomes... (break) ...civilization and other civilization.
Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.
Prabhupāda: Civilization means advance from animal life.
Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.
Prabhupāda: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.
Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupāda: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.
Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...
Prabhupāda: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Kṛṣṇa chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anārya juṣṭam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Viṣṇu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato vā imani (indistinct) bhūtāni jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Dr. Patel: Kuṇape is a dead body. Kuṇape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means aprāṇasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-rañjanam. This is going on, loka-rañjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Na te vidu svārtha-gati hi viṣṇu durāśay ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahiḥ. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ. These rascals are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhāgavata.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Harikeśa: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye.
Prabhupāda: Viḍ-bhujāṁ ye. This is not civilization. This is civilization, tapasya: no meat-eating, no this, no this, that, and become perfect, ideal brāhmaṇa life, satya śama dama śuci jñāna vijñāna. This is civilization. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. Unless you become civilized like this, there is no opportunity of brahma-jijñāsā. And so long you do not inquire about Brahman, that you remain, that pigs and hogs and asses. If human civilization is wasted to cultivate the pig civilization, naturally, "All right, you come here. Become a pig now. Take this body." Kṛṣṇa will say, "Nature, prakṛti, he got this chance to become human being, but has misused. Kindly give him a body of pig."
- īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati
- bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni
- yantrārūḍhāni māyayā
- (BG 18.61)
Then you get this yantra, how you can become perfect pig, whole day and night eat stool, and as soon as you get another opposite party, have sex. Doesn't matter whether it is daughter or mother or sister. That's all. Take Freud's philosophy and become highly advanced in civilization. Now the Freud's philosophy is being translated in Hindi and so many other languages. We are advancing in civilization, Indians. They are translating this Freud's philosophy, pig civilization. People therefore do not come to us. (chuckles) They avoid us because "They are not pigs."
Prabhupāda: ...means ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. The more we get material possession, our false egotism increases. "I have got this. I have got this. Who is more powerful than me?" Āḍhyo 'bhijanavān asmi ko 'nyo 'sti sadṛśo mayā. These are described in the Sixteenth Chapter. What is the meaning of this ahaṅkāra? Because vimūḍhātmā, that "I have got this motorcar. I have got this property," but within a second it can be finished. There is another, superior law. That he forgets. He sees actually, but he forgets. That is called vimūḍhātmā. He is seeing, everyone. Of course, our time and nature's time, little different. So many Hitlers, so many Napoleons, so many Gandhis, so many Jawaharlal came and went. But they do not see. Paśyann api na paśyati. They are seeing actually; still they do not see. Blind. In India the Mohammedans came. They ruled over. Where is the Moghul? The Englishmen came. Where they are? Everything gone. Paśyann api na paśyati. This is called vimūḍhātmā. That is going on. The material civilization means ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā. By false egotism they are bewildered and rascals. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has translated this, that jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava: "All this material advancement of civilization is the paraphernalia of māyā." Because you cannot enjoy it, but you are thinking, "I possess so much. I possess so much." You'll not be allowed to enjoy, but still.... Therefore all these material possessions are the paraphernalia of māyā. So what is the wrong there? Now, wrong is this, jaḍā-bidyā jato, māyāra vaibhava, tomāra bhajane bādhā. They are hindrances for advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is the aim of human life. That, you forget that. So tomāra bhajane bādhā, anitya saṁsāre, moha janamiyā. The result is that he becomes more attached to this temporary world and remains the rascal. Because without being rascal, nobody comes in this material world to enjoy. As soon as anyone has come to this material world, he's a rascal. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare, nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta).
Prabhupāda: Not developed. But you cannot say there is no soul. Sometimes they say foolishly that the animal, there is no soul. That is foolishness. Everywhere there is soul. It is not developed. So just like a child is as good as animal, but you cannot say in the child there is no soul. The consciousness is not developed. You can say like that. Similarly, there are 8,400,000 species of forms. They are different on account of different development of consciousness. A tree, there is consciousness, but it is very, very covered. If you cut the tree, it does not protest, because the consciousness is not developed. I have seen in children surgical operation. They do not require anesthetics. I remember. My eldest daughter, when she was child, she had some boil here. So the doctor wanted to operate. So I asked him that "Apply anesthetic or do something." "No, no, they don't require." And so the doctor cut the boil, and the child simply, "Ehhh, ehhh," no crying. I have seen it when they did.... No crying. Because the consciousness is not developed. Now, what do you mean by...? When you are unconscious, if your head is cut off, you do not understand. That is practical if by medicinal process you are made into unconsciousness, chloroform anesthetic, so that you don't feel. This is practical. So unless the consciousness is developed, one's soul's full-fledged function does not develop. So this is a chance in the human form of body that the consciousness should be developed. Therefore we are presenting these books. They can understand. We are not presenting the books to the cats and dogs. They cannot understand. Those who are developed conscious, they can understand, and they can understand the value of life, what is the objective of life. Then he acts accordingly, and his life becomes successful. Otherwise, if we do not develop consciousness, simply eat like animal, sleep like animal, enjoy sex life like animal, and try to defend ourself like animal, then where is the difference between man and the animal? At the present moment they are busy with these four things: how to eat, how to sleep, how to have best process of sex life, and how to defend by atomic bomb. This is their advancement of civilization. And this is dog's civilization. A dog is also trying for the same purpose, how to eat, how sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend. That's all. Any animal is trying. Any small insect, it is trying for the same thing. So human life should be utilized only for these four things? No. To understand himself, "What I am? Why I do not like death?" Just like we make some arrangement, struggle for existence for becoming happy, stopping the impediments. So this question should be there in the human form of life, that "I don't want to die. Why death comes upon me? What is the superior power that is enforcing death upon me? I am young man. I don't want to become an old man. Why? Why I am forced to become an old man?" These are the questions of human life. A dog cannot think. A dog cannot think that "Why I have become dog? Why I am barking, and why I am chained?" He doesn't think. And if we remain unconscious like the dog, then where is the advancement of civilization? Dog civilization is not human civilization. Human civilization should be different from the doggish life.
Brian Singer: How does a soul...
Prabhupāda: The child can understand, "Now, two finger and two finger, it becomes four finger." In this way we have to learn it. Therefore there are so many books. It is for the human being to learn. But if we simply remain civilized like cats and dog, then what is your advancement of civilization? There is no advancement. If you sit on this chair, and the others, they are sitting on the floor, sitting purpose is served. But if you say, "Sitting on the chair is civilized, and that is uncivilized," that is mental concoction. You have to serve your purpose. If by sitting on the floor you can understand what you are, that is civilization. And without understanding yourself, if you waste your time for manufacturing a chair, that is cats' and dogs' civilization. So that is going on. They are busy in manufacturing chairs, how to sit comfortably, without any knowledge that what is the value of life and what is life. This is going on. They are thinking that constructing big, big skyscraper building and motorcars and high roads and so many, so many, unnecessary things, that is advancement of civilization. No. Advancement of civilization is there when you know what you are. That is advancement of.... You can.... There is no prohibition. The materialistic way of civilization, constructing big, big house, there is no.... You don't stop it, but if you forget yourself—you do not know what you are—then it is wasting time because the human life is specially meant for understanding "What I am?" The cats and dogs, they cannot do. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to enlighten people actually what he is, what is the aim of life and how his life will be successful, how at the present moment he is living, how he is spoiling his valuable life. These are the subject matter dealt in these books.
Prabhupāda: That I could not follow.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is: "Are you concerned with the increasing number of gurus and swamis around the world?"
Prabhupāda: No. We are concerned that in spite of so-called education and advancement of civilization, people have been kept in darkness about real knowledge. So it is our little attempt to awaken them to the real platform of knowledge.
Interviewer: Well, what do you hope to achieve by your short visit here to New Zealand, where you don't have a very big following at all?
Prabhupāda: Just to encourage my disciples. They're also trying their best to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. So if I occasionally visit, they become encouraged. That's why.
Interviewer: Is your movement still growing? It was very popular here in the Beatles' era and so on and so forth.
Prabhupāda: Yes, George Harrison is a good boy. He likes me. He has given us a big house in London about 200,000 pounds' worth.
Devotee (4): He has necessity for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). Out of millions and millions people one has the necessity for Kṛṣṇa. (break) Material scientists, they are creating necessities, television, and they are thinking advanced. What is the use of television? There is no use. But this is advanced civilization.
Hari-śauri: In relative terms.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless there is necessity, what is the advancement? There is dull matter. Yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat (BG 7.5). Apareyam. The dull matter is inferior energy. And the anya-prakṛti, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho, the living entities, they have got necessities. Dull matter, there are no necessities. The more one is dull, his necessities are less. And those who are advanced, his necessities begin.
Hari-śauri: Well, they use.... They argue that, say like in India, where there's no great material development...
Prabhupāda: Then we shall judge the quality of necessity. That is another thing. First of all necessities, then quality.
Prabhupāda: Simply faith, blind faith we do not endure. And therefore they are becoming godless. And gradually, if we do not understand factually what is God, then the whole human civilization will be godless. To become godless means again animal. That is the difference between animal and man. In the animal society there is no question of religion, faith, God. These things are not there. The human civilization, if it becomes like that, without any faith in God, without any understanding of God, then where is the difference between cats and dogs and human beings? They must know God scientifically. That is the actual aim of human life. Suppose the dog is sleeping on the street without any care whether a car is coming and smash it. He's also sleeping sound sleep. And we are sleeping in a very nice apartment. So after all, sleeping. And he is also enjoying sleeping, I am also enjoying sleeping. So do you think to change the, I mean to say, circumstances of the sleeping? I am sleeping in a very nice apartment, he's sleeping on the floor. Does it mean this is advancement of civilization? Sleeping is sleeping. Eating is eating. Sex life—the male dog is enjoying with female dog. The sex pleasure is to him, and we are enjoying with a beautiful lover. The sex pleasure is the same. Therefore, you take some eatable, either on gold fork or an iron fork, the taste is the same. Simply like putting the foodstuff in the golden fork, does it mean the taste has changed? So, the test of eating, sleeping, mating and defending is the same for the human being as well as the animals. What difference, what is the difference between the animals and humans? The animal cannot know God. That is not possible. The human being can know. That is the opportunity of this human life. If we are missing that opportunity, then we are leading an animal civilization. This is not civilization. Animal life is not civilization. Civilized means not animal life. Something more than that. That is God consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Don't misunderstand. It is.... Religion, it means a kind of faith. Just like you are Christian, I am Hindu. So you have faith in Christian religion, I have faith in Hin.... That is another thing. But this is.... We understand religion in a different way according to English dictionary. But real religion means the law given by God. This is the shortcut definition of religion. And if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what is His law, then what is the meaning of religion? There is no meaning of religion. If blindly, if I have some faith in some dogmas and ritualistic ceremonies, that is not religion. Religion means the science by which you can understand God and the law of God. That is religion. It is not the kind of faith. Just like state laws. You may have faith or no faith. The state law is law; you have to obey it. Just like I have come in America. In our country, the street law is "Keep to the left." So I have come to America, you say "Keep to the right." If I say, "No, I have no faith in this 'Keep to the right.' " No, I must obey. That is law. Similarly, religion means you may have faith or no faith, but you must obey. It is a must. It is not optional. That is religion. That, I explained it many times that (indistinct) means characteristic. Just like everyone of us, we are servant. So, the living entity is servant. He may have faith or no faith, he must be a servant. And if you don't become servant of God, then you become servant of dog. That is your advancement of civilization. When there is no service for God, just like here we have got service for God, there is no question of serving dog. But when we forget service of God, then automatically we become service of dog. But service.... I am servant, that's a fact. And voluntarily keep a dog and serve him. They have no master, then I keep a master, dog, cat. You call it by the name, pet. What is a pet? I do service, that's all. So this is our advancement of civilization. We have refused to serve God, and you voluntarily accept to serve dog. Now in India, they are also learning. (chuckles) And formerly, dog keeping, dog there was in the neighborhood. But they were not allowed to enter the room or house. Now, they are keeping dogs just like the Western people keep. They are making dog show and so on, so on.
Devotees: Barbarians.
Prabhupāda: Barbians, ah, barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animals, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk...? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization.
Prabhupāda: London airport is very congested.
Gopavṛndapāla: Yes, very.
Prabhupāda: Very, very congested. Always thousands and thousands of men. If there is any such bomb explosion.... Life is becoming more and more insecure. The advancement of civilization is no relief for these other problems.
Hṛdayānanda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has said that their solution is bringing more problem.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In order to solve one problem, more problems.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupāda, am I right when I say the only solution is a change of consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real solution. So we shall now go?
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Hari-śauri: Someone can distribute that. Can someone bring those books? (end)
George Gullen: We are much in ignorance about those matters, I understand that, and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete ignorance, like animals. So the leaders of the society, if they are serious about advancement of human civilization, they must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness; otherwise, they'll be baffled.
George Gullen: Well, we do not teach about these things...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the defect.
George Gullen: .... in public schools because we do not know.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now whether still we shall remain in ignorance or we shall learn this science and teach, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is not a sectarian religious movement. No, it is not that. This is science, scientific. So leading personalities like you, teachers, professors and other leading men, they should try to understand what is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is and join. It is for the human society, it is not for a certain section.
Prabhupāda: I was talking of these cars. The dog is running on legs, and they are running on cars. So, (laughs) actually what is the difference? This is advancement of civilization, that the dog is running for nothing, here and there on legs, and human being is running on nice car. Does it mean there is advance in civilization? If we keep the human being like cats and dogs, without any advancement of knowledge, the cats and dogs, they cannot accept any advanced knowledge. That is not possible. Similarly, if human society is kept in darkness without any advanced knowledge, without any knowledge of the aim of life and without any knowledge what is the meaning of human life, they'll remain as cats and dogs. So as cats and dogs, if they are practiced to run here and there, either on legs or on cars, is that advancement of civilization?
Indian man: Swami, there was a news item in the paper last year, some research scholars at Jesuit University performed some experiments, and then they said that Kṛṣṇa consciousness people lose initiative for doing things. They don't fight the battle of life. It takes away the initiative from them. It was published in papers.
Prabhupāda: No, that's not the fact. It is misunderstanding. We are actually struggling for achievement of the highest goal of life. Otherwise, why we are writing so many books? It is for the human beings. And they are being accepted. It is not for the cats and dog. This Bhāgavatam is not meant for the cats and dogs. So, vidyā bhāgavatāvadhi. In the beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vedyaṁ vāstavam atra (SB 1.1.2). Atra śrīmad-bhāgavataṁ vāstava-vastu-vedyam, what is actual life. So we are struggling to give people what is actual life. Kṛṣṇa comes down to teach us what is actual life. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata (BG 4.7).
Prabhupāda: Yes. You also sit down. Note down.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I want to get the newspapers that you wanted. (break)
Prabhupāda: What can I do? (laughs)
Jayādvaita: I'll speak to Rāmeśvara and see if we can do something to publish it. (break)
Prabhupāda: I began with these men are running in car and the dog is running on leg, where is the difference. His running by car is his advancement of civilization. They are taking running by car, never mind the passenger is a dog. (laughter) But the passenger is running on car, a dog, therefore he's a dog.
Jayādvaita: They use these cars for running after women.
Prabhupāda: That is the same thing. Just like dog runs after.
Hari-śauri: What will the program be? Won't Prabhupāda speak down there also?
Prabhupāda: What is speaking?
Hari-śauri: I'll just see if everything is ready. (end)
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: ...had a very nice place for you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (break) People are being kept in such an ignorant way that they do not care about sinful activities. They can do anything for sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Actually, there is no advancement of civilization. They are thinking, they are running on four-wheel motorcar, and the dog is running on four legs. What is the quality change? This is going on in the name of civilization, and people are kept in ignorance. Where is the advancement? Running by motorcar is advancement? They have no knowledge that there is next life, and "Today I am running on Ford car, tomorrow I may have to run like dog on four legs."
Kīrtanānanda: They do not think like that.
Prabhupāda: So this is ignorance, this is ignorance. And they are kept, the whole world—the state, the father, the guardian, everyone, the priest. Everyone is ignorant. Dull-headed ignorant. And they are passing on as philosopher, scientist, religious leader. (break) ...hard to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Taking these few years, fifty years or sixty years living here, and dance like dog and finish. There is no life. You die peacefully or (indistinct). And not dying peacefully, they cry. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Kulādri: But the patient must be intelligent to keep.... Even though he does not want...
Prabhupāda: Patient is always rascal fool. You cannot expect him to be intelligent. He must agree to the physician's directions. That is intelligence. He must know that he's diseased, he must follow the instruction of the physician. That much will help him. Unless one is rascal, he does not fall sick. As soon as you violate the hygienic principles, you become sick. All commit sinful activities on account of ignorance. So therefore the best advancement of civilization is not to open hospitals, but to give them a lesson that they may not fall sick and go to hospital. That is real...But they do not know. They keep the mass of people in ignorance, they fall sick and they come to hospital and number of hospitals increase, they think it is advancement. This is their idea. So even the Christians, religious persons, they also open hospital to give relief to the patient. So that is not the program. The program is why he should fall sick and come to the hospital? Precaution is better than cure. One comes to the hospital for cure, but why not take the precaution so that he may not have to come to the hospital for cure? That is Vedic civilization. They have different prescribed rules and regulations so that a person may not fall sick. The modern idea is that "Let them fall sick; we have got hospitals and treat them, and they'll be cured." But he is cured, again he falls sick. That is going on. They have no program for precaution. They have program for cure. But actually, precaution is better than cure. We are taking precaution.
Prabhupāda: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said duṣkṛtinaḥ. Kṛti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities. Take for example the meat-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same—animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization? Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization.
Prabhupāda: Go on.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." (purport) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing. But, according to Bhagavad-gītā, they are unintelligent and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be the advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and more violent and more and more cruel-cruel to animals and cruel to other human beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies of the world because ultimately they will invent or create something which will bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant for the peace and prosperity of the world."
Prabhupāda: Now, discuss.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Actually, in this century there has not been ten years of peace. Always there is some war been going on, and now...
Prabhupāda: Cold war and hot war, they say. When there is fire that is hot war, and there is diplomacy and politics, that is cold war. So war is going on. Sometimes it is hot, sometimes it is cold. There is no peace.
Devotees: (laughing) No.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Prahlāda Mahārāja says it is already fixed up. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām. This pleasure is the same, but according to the body... The uncivilized man in the jungle, they are having the same thing. And they are taking civilization that "Instead of living in that hut made of leaves, we are living in skyscraper building. This is advancement." But Vedic civilization says, "No. This is not advancement. The advancement is self-realization, how much you have realized yourself." Not that from the hutment you have come to skyscraper building, therefore it is advancement. Sometimes they misunderstand. In a high-court a judge is sitting soberly, doing nothing, and he is getting the highest salary. And another man in the same court, he's working day and hard rubber-stamping and he is getting not even one tenth of the salary. He's thinking, "I am so busy and working so hard. I am not getting any good salary. And this man is sitting only on the bench and he's getting so fat salary." So therefore this is question like that. The Vedic civilization is for self-realization. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18). Kovido means very learned. He'll simply try for that thing which was not received, which was not achieved in other life. That means self-realization. Just like we are sometimes charged, "escape." What is the charge?
Devotee: We are escaping from reality.
Prabhupāda: There is the question. (devotees laugh) but their reality is dog's race, and our reality is to advance in self-realization, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is difference. Therefore karmīs have been described as mūḍha, asses. Asses. And asses, why the example is given to the asses? Because the ass works very hard. It loads on the back tons of cloth of the washerman, and the washerman in return gives him little morsel of grass, and he stands at the door of the washerman, eats the grass, again loading. But he has no sense that "If I go out of these clutches of washerman I can get grass anywhere. Why I am loading so much?" The karmīs are like that. They're busy in the office, very busy. If you want to see him, "I am very busy now." (laughter) So what is your result of busy? "Now, I take two pieces of toast and one cup of tea. That's all." (laughter) And for this purpose you are so busy? He does not know why he's busy. Because in the books he's finding, "Now, the balance was one thousand million dollars, now it has become two thousand," that his satisfaction. But he will eat two pieces of bread and one cup of tea. When it was one million dollars, when it was two million dollars. But still he'll work hard. This is called karmī. Asses. Work like asses, without any aim of life. This is asses. Mūḍha. But Vedic civilization is different. The accusation is not correct. They are not lazy. They are busy for higher subject matter. And that busy-ness is so important that Prahlāda Mahārāja says, "Beginning from the childhood," kaumāra ācaret prājño (SB 7.6.1). Not lose a second time. So that is Vedic civilization. But these asses, they do not see that "These men are working like us, like dogs and asses. So they are escaping." Yes, escaping your fruitless endeavor. So the Vedic civilization was meant for self-realization. Vedic civilization begins from the varṇāśrama system. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). How to realize Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the system is varṇāśrama. In another place it is said, tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer (SB 1.5.17). The varṇāśrama means there is division: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. But the ultimate goal is viṣṇur ārādhyate. The Supreme Lord should be worshiped. That is the idea. So if Viṣṇu ārādhana is available immediately, then you can give up all other occupational duty as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya, as a śūdra, as a brahmacārī, everything. Take to it, immediately, to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is so important. But that they do not know. Therefore there is no religion. A simply dog's race. The dog is running on four legs and you are running on four wheels. That's all. And they think the four-wheel race is advancement of civilization. But the Vedic civilization is different. Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ (SB 1.5.18). Then one can say that "Then we shall do nothing?" Yes, practically it is said, "Do nothing." Whatever is obtainable by you or destiny, you'll get it wherever you are. Take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Simply you have to take so much trouble. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja's instruction. Sukham aindriyakaṁ daityā deha-yogena dehinām. The sense gratification, the standard of sense gratification, is deha-yogena dehinām, according to the body. The pig is eating very nicely stool because he has got a body like that. A human being will not take that. But the pleasure of eating, either stool or rasagullā, the same.
Rūpānuga: You gave the example of a gold pot and an iron pot and a diamond pot. A diamond pot was a demigod, and the gold pot was a human being, and the iron pot the animal. But they are thinking that the food is more palatable in a different pot. But it is still the same food.
Prabhupāda: But they are simply interested with the pots. External. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye... (SB 7.5.31). They are thinking by changing the pot the advancement of civilization will increase. And that is going on. Just like America. You have got very big, big roads, nice cars, everything. You are changing the pot, but the eatable is the same.
Vipina: I heard a nice example given the other day about how living entities are suffering. A black widow, male and female black widow spiders, have sex life. After the sex life the female spider consumes the male spider, eats him alive.
Prabhupāda: What's that? Spider.
Interviewer: What is your opinion of what this movement should be doing in terms of world activities and world affairs that it isn't doing now? Are there some new areas that you may try to influence?
Prabhupāda: No, we are pushing on this movement all over the world. It is not that this particular place is important, but our interest is that Western people... They are so intelligent. They are very systematically making improvement in material condition of life. They should know also that spiritual life is more important than material life. Because, for example, we are combination of matter and spirit. So long the spirit soul is there, our body is very important. Otherwise, without spirit, the body has no importance. Everyone can understand. Similarly, all this material advancement of civilization is very good, provided there is spiritual understanding also. Otherwise it is decoration of the dead body. A dead body decorated has no value, but when there is life, then the body is valuable. So material advancement of material civilization means decoration of the dead body. But when there is spiritual understanding, then there is importance of everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The moon business was done there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This means it's definitely a very calculated plot to cheat the public.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the whole, all of the nations...
Prabhupāda: Just to convince people that our, this rascal civilization is advanced.
Rāmeśvara: International conspiracy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means all the nations are cooperating in this project.
Rāmeśvara: Russia and America.
Prabhupāda: All the so-called scientists.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Do they know that they are, are they talking with each other, or are they just...
Prabhupāda: No, they are knowing. They talk. Chauri chauri mātṛka-bhāi.(?)
Rāmeśvara: It's a conspiracy.
Prabhupāda: All thieves, they are cousin brothers, "Don't expose me and I'll not expose you. Let us keep peace." Two thieves, he knows he is a thief, but if he wants to reveal a thief, then his business will be suffer.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's asking a question, Śrīla Prabhupāda: isn't it important to mold the activities of ourselves and also the children in coming to this movement; to mold them that so that we can become Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is (why) our gurukula is there. How these children are becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, (indistinct), how they are learning Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are doing the same thing, offering obeisances to the Deities, taking prasādam, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In the same way as his father is doing. So automatically he's being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Good association, that is required. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvidaḥ. We are keeping this house for association of devotees so that automatically they become Kṛṣṇa conscious by association. The most unfortunate position is that there is no education about future life, or the perfection of life. The education is the animal education: the animal (is) eating, we are eating. If we are eating on table, or nice place, nice chair, then we think we are advanced. But the business is the eating. Similarly sleeping. The dog is sleeping on the street, we are sleeping in good apartment, skyscraper building. They are thinking this is advancement of civilization. But actually the business is sleeping. Similarly sex life. The dog is having sex life on the street, we are having in a very nice apartment. The business is sex. In this way our modern activities are animal activities but in a polished way. But that does not make any difference between the animal propensity and so-called civilized life. Civilized life is there when we understand what is God, our relationship with God. That is civilized life, but that is lacking. There is no such education. The education is only the same animal life in a polished way, that's all.
Prabhupāda: So long one will remain a karmī, he'll get body. And what body? There is no guarantee. That will depend on your karma. But you'll get a body. So read it. It is very important. Again.
Jayatīrtha: "As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance."
Prabhupāda: Everything, whatever he's doing—the so-called nonsense advancement of civilization is defeat, simply defeat. What is your advancement? You are completely under the control of the laws of material nature. What is your progress? So yāvan na jijñāsata ātma-tattvam. Only this hodgepodge. They are wasting so much time going to the Mars, spending so much money. But there is no inquiry, ātma-tattvam: "What I am? What is my goal of life?"
Bhagavān: They are zero.
Prabhupāda: Such zero. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Ātma-tattva, there is no...
Bhagavān: They are thinking that they have become advanced because they have become atheists. They have let religion go. They say that religion was a...
Prabhupāda: But what you have gained out of it, rascal? Now, there is no water. Bring water and become atheist. Why do you see: "When there will be water?" Bring water by scientific method. Why you are looking on the sky: "Whether there is any cloud."
Prabhupāda: Misunderstanding. The whole civilization, the modern civilization, is going on misunderstanding. Dehātma-buddhiḥ —just like cats and dogs. Suppose if you become very proud, "I am Englishman. Why you have come here?" As the dogs bark, "Row! Row! Why you have come?" So where is the difference? What is the difference? He's thinking "I am dog," you are thinking "Englishman," I am thinking "Indian." There is no difference. So if we keep people in darkness of dog's mentality, and declare we are advanced in civilization, most misguiding.
Mike Robinson: I see. And so when people are taught, they will then understand. But what I'd also like to know, how would it affect the way they live? In sort of purely..., the way they go about their life.
Prabhupāda: You see they are living, these boys are living. It is not very difficult. They are not dying, they are living.
Mike Robinson: Yes, I accept that completely, but I want to know what differences, if you could tell me basically, what difference it makes to their life.
Prabhupāda: Difference is that if you accept this mode of life, it is very simplified, and no botheration, and you make your spiritual progress very easily. If you take otherwise, then it is difficult.
Nava-yauvana: Forty million pounds.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Forty million pounds are being spent in Germany to take care of dog. This is advancement of civilization.
Mrs. Sahani: And how to surrender to God, how to do this?
Prabhupāda: Simply surrender to God, immediately. He says sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66).
Mrs. Sahani: For a layman who doesn't know anything.
Prabhupāda: People do not know. Therefore God comes personally to teach you. Why don't you take the teaching? Why don't you take the teaching? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ (BG 18.66), why don't you become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa?
Mrs. Sahani: Yes, we follow, you know. Someone has to create interest first, and then people will take the teaching.
Prabhupāda: That is conditional. But He wants unconditional surrender. That is religion. Of course, if you cannot surrender unconditionally, then you at least practice. That is also instructed. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). At least think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. What is the difficulty if you think of Kṛṣṇa, man-manā. What is the difficulty if you think of Kṛṣṇa? What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty?
Mrs. Sahani: You first have to surrender to God.
Prabhupāda: I saw you? Give them prasāda.
Indian man: Last night at the airport.
Devotee: They had prasāda.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi or Bengali)
- bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya
- jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ
- aprāṇasyeva dehasya
- maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam
Without bhagavad-bhakti, this so-called advancement of civilization is simply decorating the dead body.
Guest: Correct. Cent percent correct.
Prabhupāda: What is the use of decorating the dead body?
Guest: Correct. Yes. We must decorate real...
Prabhupāda: And this body is... Either dead or alive, Bhagavad-gītā condemns, gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ (BG 2.11). So these rascals are interested with this body, and they're proud of their advancement of education. Bhagavad-gītā says nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. So they are passing as great scientists, philosophers, politicians, philanthropists, but all apaṇḍitāḥ. Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. That means apaṇḍita. (Bengali) The first thing of Bhagavad-gītā lesson is that aśocyān anvaśocas tvaṁ prajñā-vādān (BG 2.11). "Talking like a learned man, but you are rascal." Apaṇḍitaḥ. One who is not educated, he's a rascal. So He's indirectly saying, "This kind of lamentation is not for the paṇḍita. It is for the rascal." So whole world is interested with this body, and Bhagavad-gītā's teaching begins condemning the concept of body. Gatāsūn agatāsūṁś ca nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Nobody knows this. And they are very learned scholars in Bhagavad-gītā. All these rascals, they're claiming to be learned scholar of Bhagavad-gītā.
Pradyumna: Caitanya-caritāmṛta was quoted? Ādi-līlā?
Prabhupāda: Mm.
Mahāṁsa: Shall I go and bring the agreement?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Western world is very busy manufacturing this machine. And they are thinking this is advancement of civilization.
Hari-śauri: Technology.
Prabhupāda: That is not advancement.
Hari-śauri: They can't see any use for philosophy and fine arts any more.
Prabhupāda: Because they do not know what is soul. They do not know what is missing. Why the body is useless. They do not cultivate... The most important thing they do not cultivate. This man was so important one second before. Now the whole body is useless. It has to be thrown away. They do not give attention even to this. How he becomes... Second before he was Mr. Churchill or Mr. such and such, very important man. All men showing respect. And now he is useless. If somebody kicks on his face nobody will say. Out of sentiment they protest, but the man will not protest.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So at least Indians should join this movement. They're feeling the weight, the Western countries. They are opposing means that those who are thoughtful, they are thinking that "If this movement allowed to go on, then our civilization will be finished." That is their... That... They are right. They are right. If these young men, they go on under my instruction, I shall finish their civilization. That's a fact. No meat-eating in Western countries? (chuckling) No intoxication? No illicit sex? No gambling? That means their life is finished. And we are imitating, that "We are becoming advanced in civilization." And we are condemning.
CID Chief: But most of the people realize that that is not the real..., real kind of advancement.
Prabhupāda: "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss."
CID Chief: We are helpless. I assure that will stand, but actually what we call advancement in... It is not. People themselves are realizing that...
Prabhupāda: Yoṣitāṁ saṅgī-saṅgam.
CID Chief: ...that advancement has led them to some sort of monotony, which they want to avoid, and they want to...
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, we must know the destiny of life, what is the destiny of life. Then whether we are advancing or degrading, then it will be decided. But they do not know what is destiny of life. They are so fools, they are thinking that this life, say, for hundred years, and after hundred years everything finished. The Russian big, big professor, they think like that. I went to Moscow, and I talked with Indologist. They say "Swamiji, after this body is finished, everything is finished."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Animal living.
Prabhupāda: The tigers also do that. But you say, "Oh, we have got machine, cunning, (while the) tiger has to fight." This is their advancement of civilization.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bigger animals.
Prabhupāda: Acting like animals and going on as civilized. This is modern civilization.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to find so many things out from our past. They are trying to find any devotees who have left the movement, and they're trying to ask them so many questions to try and find out something that is wrong. Now, one devotee came to us... He's not a devotee anymore, Manasvī.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes, they said it. In the newspaper it was reported.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they say, "It is spreading like epidemic." What is that?
Devotee: Little more? (sound of eating)
Prabhupāda: What is that civilization? Do they think that civilization is correct?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are the most advanced civilization ever. This is the topmost yet. Man is becoming more and more evolved, from the ape until now. This is the pinnacle so far.
Prabhupāda: And what you have gained? Criminals, fire brigade, always "dungdungdungdungdungdung," in every big city. And criminality increasing. Do you think it is civilization? Always anxious, and covering yourself by drinking, intoxicated. In New York street you would go out ordinary-hell! Two sides hell.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it has become worse in the last ten years. It is much worse.
Prabhupāda: It must become worse.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It is not safe now for anyone to walk on the street at night.
Prabhupāda: Night or daylight, it is not.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The goal of life is different. Those who accuse us, they don't know that goal.
Prabhupāda: Nobody knows goal. Everyone is living like animal. Many other goal. They do not know. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). This is the modern civilization. They do not know what is the goal of life. And without knowing the goal of life, they are trying to adjust things on this material platform. That will never happen. Durāśayā. Now suppose this race... On the road we see so many four-wheel cars racing. Does it mean this will solve the problems of life? What is the difference? If the dog is running and I am also running in a four-wheel car, so where is the difference? (Hindi) What is the difference? Is that advancement of civilization because I am in a four-wheel Mercedes car and the dog is running on the street? He will also die, I will die, and he will have to change, he'll also change body, I have to change body. Next life, I may be a dog like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). My problem is how to stop this business, how to get my real life. So one who is interested in real life, why he should join the dog race? It is all dog race. And they are taking it as advancement of knowledge. That is not advancement. They do not know how to stop. Nature will not excuse you. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu (BG 13.22). If you associate with certain type of modes of material nature, then you will have to accept the next body accordingly. The nature will not excuse you. The business is that I have got this human form of life. I must fully utilize it how to get out of these problems. That is life.
Prabhupāda: This is real socialism. God is the supreme father. Everyone has got right to live at the cost of the father's property. But you cannot take more than that. Then you are a thief. Take whatever you... And even by nature you will find. You just immediately throw one bag of rice, so many birds will come. And they will take one or two grain or something... They will go away. And the human being, oh, he will take five shares, he will take ten shares. And within one hour, ten mounds of rice will be finished. The birds and beasts will not do that. Whatever he actually requires, they will take from there. Therefore they are not subjected to the sinful activities. Only human beings are subjected to sinful activities. But he has got developed consciousness and misusing it. There is no sinful activities for animals lower than the human being. There is no sin. Because they are under the laws of nature, the animals. And as soon as one becomes developed conscious human being, if he does not know the śāstra and guided by spiritual master, he will do all nonsense. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma (SB 5.5.4). Vikarma, all sinful activities. Only for sense gratification. Mad after sense gratification. Nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma. And what is the purpose of doing so many sinful activities? Yad indriya-prītaya, only for sense gratification. There is no other aim. Ṛṣabhadeva says, "No, no, don't do this." So who is giving protection to these rascals who are educated to act sinfully? That is in Bhāgavata. "No, no." Na sādhu manye. "This is not good." "But why not good? Let me enjoy." "No, you will not enjoy. You will create another body for suffering." Yata ātmano 'yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ (SB 5.5.4). You are already suffering. You have got this body. You are already suffering on account of your past activities. And you are creating again another body for suffering. So it is not good. They do not know. (Hindi) Four-wheel dogs. That is advancement of civilization. The dog is running with four legs, and he is running with four wheels. Dag-dag-dag-dag-dag. Where you are going? And this is their scientific advancement. Competition with dog. Otherwise what they have done? The ant hill, and four-legged wheel. That's all. Four wheel legs. This is animal civilization. Without knowing the aim of life, living in big, big skyscraper building, "I am king." And running like dogs with four wheel car, Mercedes. This is dog civilization. It is not human civilization. Human civilization begins when they take Kṛṣṇa's instructions: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Divide the whole human society into four divisions and let them cooperatively act for the benefit of God. That is civilization. There civilization begins. Otherwise, what is the difference between dog and the human being? There is no difference. The leaders are teaching, "Feel like Indians." As a dog is feeling, "I am bulldog." This is our leaders.
Girirāja: ...so even if they do everything else correct in terms of the body. They go farther and farther from the real solution.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has done this mistake. "I am God." What is the use of the advancement of so-called civilization?
Girirāja: We have to show that this is scientific fact. Otherwise the demons will make propaganda that this is sectarian.
Prabhupāda: "Brainwashed." They say "brainwashed."
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So if he has already talked with Morarji, and he has agreed, then it is great advance.
Girirāja: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Good advance.
Girirāja: He said he would be pleased to meet you. He gave a speech on the television last night.
Prabhupāda: Morarji?
Girirāja: Yes. In Hindi. I couldn't follow all of it, but there was a lot of reference to Gandhi and Gandhi's principles and the..., molding the character of youth. So I told Mr. Rajda—I was watching with Mr. Rajda in his house—that this is the real way to fulfill all of these goals, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Mr. Rajda said yes.
Prabhupāda: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.
Prabhupāda: You have to accept a change of body. Change of bodies you have to accept from your argument. You were monkeys; now you are human being. This is change of body.
Śatadhanya: Evolution means change of body.
Prabhupāda: That is real evolution. What do they know of change of body? Therefore I say that, that you people, your brain is filled up with stool. You require thorough washing. You are not civilized. What is meaning of civilization? Improve animal life to civilized life. A dog can walk on the street naked; a man cannot. That is civilization. Otherwise dog is eating; you are eating. He's sleeping; you are sleeping. This is civilization. (indistinct) Culture. You have no knowledge of culture. Real knowledge is this: the body is there and changing; the soul is there, eternal. Then you become on the platform of God. If you remain in the same ignorance, then where is your advancement of civilization? If you cannot understand the simple truth, then where is your civilization?
Śatadhanya: They have no civilization.
Prabhupāda: No, where is civilization? If you remain like animals, where is that civilization?
Śatadhanya: Just from the daily newspaper one can see that it is all madness, insane. (break)
Prabhupāda: Because whole Vedic knowledge is concentrated on the point how to stop birth and death. Eternal life. That is... (Bengali) (end)
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Upendra: This material world is called the world of death. Every living being, beginning from Brahmā, whose duration of life is some thousands of millions of years, down to the germs who live for a few seconds only, is struggling for existence. Therefore, this life is a sort of fight with material nature, which imposes death upon all. In the human form of life, a living being is competent enough to come to an understanding of this great struggle for existence, but being too attached to family members, society, country, etc., he wants to win over the invincible material nature by the aid of bodily strength, children, wife, relatives, etc. Although he is sufficiently experienced in the matter by dint of past experience and previous examples of his deceased predecessors, he does not see that the so-called fighting soldiers like the children, relatives, society members and countrymen are all fallible in the great struggle. One should examine the fact that his father or his father's father has already died, and that he himself is therefore also sure to die, and similarly, his children, who are the would-be fathers of their children, will also die in due course. No one will survive in this struggle with material nature. The history of human society definitely proves it, yet the foolish people still suggest that in the future they will be able to live perpetually, with the help of material science. This poor fund of knowledge exhibited by human society is certainly misleading, and it is all due to ignoring the constitution of the living soul. This material world exists only as a dream, due to our attachment to it. Otherwise, the living soul is always different from the material nature. The great ocean of material nature is tossing with the waves of time, and the so-called living conditions are something like foaming bubbles, which appear before us as bodily self, wife, children, society, countrymen, etc. Due to a lack of knowledge of self, we become victimized by the force of ignorance and thus spoil the valuable energy of human life in a vain search after permanent living conditions, which are impossible in this material world.
Our friends, relatives and so-called wives and children are not only fallible, but also bewildered by the outward glamor of material existence. As such, they cannot save us. Still we think that we are safe within the orbit of family, society or country.
The whole materialistic advancement of human civilization is like the decoration of a dead body. Everyone is a dead body flapping only for a few days, and yet all the energy of human life is being wasted in the decoration of this dead body. Śukadeva Gosvāmī is pointing out the duty of the human being after showing the actual position of bewildered human activities. Persons who are devoid of the knowledge of ātma-tattva are misguided, but those who are devotees of the Lord and have perfect realization of transcendental knowledge are not bewildered.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes I become surprised how I have written this. Although I am the writer, still sometimes I am surprised how these things have come. Such vivid description. Where is such literature throughout the whole world? It is all Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Every line is perfect.
| Page Title: | Advancement of civilization (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 08 of Feb, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=96, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 96 |