In other countries, especially in the Occident, tremendous progress has been a made in the various fields of material science—but it is all based on the material mind and body, which are creations of māyā, the illusory potency. It is for this reason that the Westerners lament, "In the dispensation of providence, man cannot have any rest." At present, the Indians have similarly taken to the path of self-destruction by aping the Western ways. The have discarded and desecrated their own culture and have become beggars at another's door. They are now flying their flag of independence, but this is also a dispensation of māyā. Factually, they cannot gain anything from it. The Occident has never delved into the three stages in the development of the eternal relationship between the infinitesimal soul and the infinite Supreme Whole. These stages are, first, the initial contact with the Supreme Lord and the re-awakening of one's relationship with him; second, the execution of the means to achieve one's eternal relationship with Him; and finally, the blossoming of that relationship into one of love and total dependence of the soul upon the Lord.
Westerner
Expressions researched:
"westerner"
|"westerners"
|"westernised"
|"westernization"
|"westernize"
|"westernized"
Bhagavad-gita As It Is
BG Chapters 1 - 6
"Sacred place" refers to places of pilgrimage. In India the yogīs—the transcendentalists or the devotees—all leave home and reside in sacred places such as Prayāga, Mathurā, Vṛndāvana, Hṛṣīkeśa and Hardwar and in solitude practice yoga where the sacred rivers like the Yamunā and the Ganges flow. But often this is not possible, especially for Westerners. The so-called yoga societies in big cities may be successful in earning material benefit, but they are not at all suitable for the actual practice of yoga. One who is not self-controlled and whose mind is not undisturbed cannot practice meditation. Therefore, in the Bṛhan-nāradīya Purāṇa it is said that in Kali-yuga (the present yuga, or age), when people in general are short-lived, slow in spiritual realization and always disturbed by various anxieties, the best means of spiritual realization is chanting the holy name of the Lord.
Srimad-Bhagavatam
SB Canto 3
Although Westerners accept that Darwin first expounded the doctrine of evolution, the science of anthropology is not new. The development of the evolutionary process was known long before from the Bhāgavatam, which was written five thousand years ago. There are records of the statements of Kapila Muni, who was present almost in the beginning of the creation. This knowledge has existed since the Vedic time, and all these sequences are disclosed in Vedic literature; the theory of gradual evolution or anthropology is not new to the Vedas.
SB Canto 4
Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, after retiring from his minister's seat in the government, went to Vṛndāvana and lived beneath a tree, like Mahārāja Pṛthu. Since then, many people have gone to Vṛndāvana to imitate Rūpa Gosvāmī's behavior. Instead of advancing in spiritual life, many have fallen into material habits and even in Vṛndāvana have become victims of illicit sex, gambling and intoxication. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been introduced in the Western countries, but it is not possible for Westerners to go to the forest and practice the severe austerities which were ideally practiced by Pṛthu Mahārāja or Rūpa Gosvāmī. However, Westerners or anyone else can follow in the footsteps of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura by living in a temple, which is transcendental to residence in a forest, and to vow to accept kṛṣṇa-prasāda and nothing else, follow the regulative principles and chant sixteen rounds daily of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In this way, one's spiritual life will never be disturbed.
As long as a person is entangled in fruitive activities, he is bound to accept one body after another. This is called karma-bandha-phāṅsa—entanglement in fruitive activities. It does not matter whether one is engaged in pious or impious activities, for both are causes for further entanglement in material bodies. By pious activities one can take birth in a rich family and get a good education and a beautiful body, but this does not mean that the distresses of life are ultimately eliminated. In the Western countries it is not unusual for one to take birth in a rich aristocratic family, nor is it unusual for one to have a good education and a very beautiful body, but this does not mean that Westerners are free from the distresses of life. Although at the present moment the younger generation in Western countries has sufficient education, beauty and wealth, and although there is enough food, clothing, and facilities for sense gratification, they are in distress.
In this way one can take advantage of all the facilities of human life. We are gradually introducing this system in different centers in our Society in the Western countries. One who takes advantage of it becomes more and more enlightened in spiritual life. At the present moment, India may be compared to the lame man and the Western countries to the blind man. For the past two thousand years India has been subjugated by the rule of foreigners, and the legs of progress have been broken. In the Western countries the eyes of the people have become blind due to the dazzling glitter of material opulence. The blind man of the Western countries and the lame man of India should combine together in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Then the lame man of India can walk with the help of the Westerner, and the blind Westerner can see with the help of the lame man. In short, the material advancement of the Western countries and the spiritual assets of India should combine for the elevation of all human society.
SB Canto 9
However great a woman may be, she must place herself before her husband in this way; that is to say, she must be ready to carry out her husband's orders and please him in all circumstances. Then her life will be successful. When the wife becomes as irritable as the husband, their life at home is sure to be disturbed or ultimately completely broken. In the modern day, the wife is never submissive, and therefore home life is broken even by slight incidents. Either the wife or the husband may take advantage of the divorce laws. According to the Vedic law, however, there is no such thing as divorce laws, and a woman must be trained to be submissive to the will of her husband. Westerners contend that this is a slave mentality for the wife, but factually it is not; it is the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may be. In this case we clearly see that although Cyavana Muni was not young but indeed old enough to be Sukanyā's grandfather and was also very irritable, Sukanyā, the beautiful young daughter of a king, submitted herself to her old husband and tried to please him in all respects. Thus she was a faithful and chaste wife.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta
CC Madhya-lila
One can be delivered from material existence simply by remembering Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's holy name or by visiting Him. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is being spread throughout the world, but not even one yavana or mleccha addicted to drinking could have changed and accepted Kṛṣṇa consciousness without Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace. People are often astonished to see many thousands of Westerners converted to Vaiṣṇavism. Generally Westerners are addicted to meat-eating, drinking, gambling and illicit sex; therefore their taking up Kṛṣṇa consciousness is astonishing. In India, especially, there is much astonishment at this. The answer, however, is given here: darśana-smaraṇe yāṅra jagat tārila. This change is made possible simply by the remembrance of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Western devotees are very sincerely chanting the holy names of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His associates: śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu-nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. By the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His associates, people are being purified and their consciousness directed from māyā to Kṛṣṇa.
CC Antya-lila
If one cannot complete the fixed number of rounds he is assigned, he should be considered to be in a diseased condition of spiritual life. Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura is called nāmācārya. Of course, we cannot imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura, but everyone must chant a prescribed number of rounds. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we have fixed sixteen rounds as the minimum so that the Westerners will not feel burdened. These sixteen rounds must be chanted, and chanted loudly, so that one can hear himself and others.
Other Books by Srila Prabhupada
Renunciation Through Wisdom
The saintly, pure devotees, the guru, and the scriptures all represent the same Absolute Truth. The pure devotees are in fact all gurus because they never swerve from the spiritual principles enunciated in the scriptures: they see only through the lens of the scriptures. Spiritual practices are impossible to execute without the authority of these three ruling principles—the saintly devotees, the guru, and the scriptures. One must vehemently denounce the Western mentality of defying spiritual tradition and the scriptures. Such a mentality reveres mundane philosophies based on speculation and concocted logic, considering these practices signs of superior intelligence. The only weapon the proponents of such philosophies have is mundane argument, but often they exhibit a lack of mastery even of this art. Recent trends show that without probing deeply into a subject, these Westerners uselessly debate direct and indirect meanings ad infinitum. Each of these sophists surely realizes that he must one day accept defeat in the hands of a greater sophist, for there is always someone more intelligent. Therefore the process of debate leads nowhere.
Lectures
Bhagavad-gita As It Is Lectures
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness means cosmic consciousness. Kṛṣṇa... When we speak of Kṛṣṇa, you don't take any personal view. Kṛṣṇa means all-attractive. So all-attraction is there in the cosmic. Cosmic consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest: Well, I believe that most of the westerners do not know the meaning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That we are explaining here.
Guest: You have yet to explain that it's cosmic consciousness, self-realization.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we are explaining Kṛṣṇa consciousness here. And as you say, that most of the westerners, they do not know the meaning. So we are present here to explain the meaning. So that is our humble service. Because Kṛṣṇa and Bhagavad-gītā is very well known in the western countries, and there are so many editions and publication of Bhagavad-gītā, both in Europe and America and other parts of Asia. Kṛṣṇa is more or less well known. But actually, the science of Kṛṣṇa is not so well known. Therefore we have put up this association, International Association of Society for Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
Guest: I believe that most of the westerners read the Bhagavad-gītā, Upaniṣads...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Guest: The Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: I believe that would have been a greater understanding of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say Kṛṣṇa in conn... Because most of them are acquainted with the Bhagavad-gītā and the speaker of Bhagavad-gītā is Kṛṣṇa. So Kṛṣṇa is also well known to them. But actually what is Kṛṣṇa, the science of Kṛṣṇa, they do not know. So this humble attempt is to just to present the science of Kṛṣṇa to them. And I wish that they may take advantage of this opportunity. So any other questions?
Guest: Swamiji, may I ask you a question?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
So here it is said... Vyāsadeva, he writes... This Bhagavad-gītā is one of the chapter of Mahābhārata. Mahābhārata means the history of greater India. Formerly Bhārata... "India" is given name by the Westerners, but real name is Bhārata, Bhārata-varṣa. This planet was formerly known as Ilāvṛta-varṣa, and later on, after the Emperor Bharata, this planet was known as Bhārata-varṣa. So Bhārata-varṣa means not only India, but the whole planet. At least five thousand years ago it was known as Bhārata-varṣa. Bhārata-varṣa name is there, but it indicates only India. So this Bhagavad-gītā is a chapter of Mahābhārata. Perhaps you know the book Mahābhārata, "Greater Bhārata-varṣa," "The History of the Greater Bhārata-varṣa." That is Mahābhārata. So the background of this Bhagavad-gītā is that there was worldwide fight, battle, called the Battle of Kurukṣetra. Kurukṣetra, the place is still there. If some of you went to India, (you) might have seen it is near Delhi, New Delhi. The railway station is called also Kurukṣetra. So there was a battle five thousand years ago. The parties were two cousin-brothers, and this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Bhagavān. Therefore it is called bhagavān uvāca.
Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures
So the Vedic literatures, one cannot say that it is concocted. One reference is there, one reference in another place. Sometimes there are some rascal philosophers, they say that Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam has been compiled for, I mean to say, eulogizing Kṛṣṇa, who was the son of a leader, (indistinct) like that. So many they manufacture. But you cannot do so, because the reference is there. Very old Purāṇas. Some rascal philosopher says Bhāgavata Purāṇa was compiled recently. How there is a reference within the Purāṇas? So this rascaldom has spoiled the whole Vedic culture. The so-called Westernized scholars... Because the real purpose was that the rulers(?), they did not want to present Indian culture as very old, because then their Darwin's theory will be spoiled. That was their nonsense proposition, that they are proposing that human brain is being developed. But if they accept that millions of years ago the brain was already there, then their rascals theory of Darwin will be spoiled.
Similarly, we are giving chance all over the world, opening this Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa temple, giving them chance to chant the glories of the Lord. That means it is going to their credit. If they take it immediately, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66), that is very nice. But if he cannot, this chance will never go in vain. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje, ahaitukī (SB 1.2.6). And anyone can join. There is no question. Kṛṣṇa is not meant for the Hindus or Indians. This is a mistake. Now, the Westerners, the Europeans, Americans, they understand. They do not say that "Why should we accept Kṛṣṇa? He is Indian. He was Hindu." No. Kṛṣṇa is for everyone. Just like the sun. The same sun, it rises, first of all rises in India, then gradually goes to Europe. Does it mean the European sun and the Indian sun, they are different? No, the one sun. Similarly, God is one for everyone. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya. Sarva-yoniṣu means 8,400,000 species of forms.
Because such knowledge is wanting all over the world. The Western countries, they might have advanced in material technology, technical knowledge, but they have no knowledge about the science of God. That is lacking. So the East and West, they should cooperate. They cooperate. You have got some knowledge; I take advantage of it. I have got some knowledge; you take advantage of it. This is cooperation. This is cooperation. So especially now, people all over the world, they are trying to imitate the Western type of civilization. That is not bad. Do it. But you also do something so that Westerners may also take your knowledge. That is cooperation. So why you are silent in that point? Therefore, because Indians or Indian government has failed to do this duty, India is known as beggar country all over the world. I am traveling. "Oh, you are from India? It is very poverty-stricken country." This is the designation of India. Actually it is so. In comparison to Western country, India is very poor, very poor.
He simply asked us, "Surrender," but He did not distribute Himself. But in the form of Caitanya Mahāprabhu He distributed Himself: "Take Me, take Me, take Me. Without any price, take Me." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who is Kṛṣṇa, and He has come in the form of Caitanya, Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, to distribute Himself. Therefore He is recognized, namo mahā-vadānyāya, "the most munificent." No other incarnation, even Rāmacandra or Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa, they were not so liberal. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu is so liberal. Pāpī tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo. They distributed Himself through the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
So these Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, the Westerners, they are understanding Kṛṣṇa. It is very, very difficult subject matter. But because we are trying to understand Kṛṣṇa through Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore it has become easy. Otherwise it is very difficult subject. Otherwise Kṛṣṇa Himself said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati sidd... (BG 7.3). It will take... But as we are fallen, Kṛṣṇa is also as much liberal also, this age. So if we still, you do not take advantage, then how much unfortunate we are, we can consider.
And pratically we see in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. All you are young Westerners. You never study Vedānta, but you can surprise many so-called Vedāntists how to understand Kṛṣṇa. How it has become possible? Simply by your firm faith in your spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). This is the Vedic process. If we have got firm faith in guru and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa—guru-kṛṣṇa-kṛpayā pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (CC Madhya 19.151)—then you get the seedling of bhakti-latā. Some way or other, we have to come to this bhakti-latā, increasing or nourishing the bhakti creeper. That will be effective.
Climate also. The climate is very favorable. Now it is, of course, winter season. Otherwise, it will continue for two months only. It is not very severe, and still, this condition will not continue. Throughout the whole year you can remain naked body. There is no expenditure for dressing much. And to remain clean, you simply wash in the water, and immediately it is... So with one cloth or two cloths you can go on for six months. There is no much expenditure. And this vegetarian diet, if you take a few grains of this chick pea and little milk, you don't require anything to eat. Everything, facility, is there still. But they have... The people are being trained up to imitate Western civilization. That is the government policy, that, "Unless you become Westernized, technologist, you'll not be happy." But they can become happy even in this condition. This artificial partition has caused some trouble by the Britishers because the Pakistan has taken away all the wheat and rice. Their purpose was that.
He immediately transcends all the influence of the three material modes of nature. Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate. Immediately he's on the transcendental platform called Brahman. So if you want to solve the problems of life, without any difficulty, very easily, then this is the movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Very simple and easy. You are seeing practically. You boys and girls who are participating in this movement... We have got sixty branches all over the world. Outside India... India, we have got four branches only. But fifty-six branches are outside the world, outside India. And they're all foreigners. Four years, or three years ago, they did not know who is Kṛṣṇa. Now they are chanting, dancing, enjoying Kṛṣṇa conscious life. This is practical proof how Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is effective. Before me, from India, many swamis came, but actually they could not induce the Westerners, especially the young generation, to any Indian cultural movement except this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. That's a fact, historical.
So therefore I wrote, tabe jadi tava kṛpā hay ahaitukī, sakala sambhava hay tumi se kautikī, that "God is all-powerful, Kṛṣṇa is all-powerful. He can do everything impossible, possible." So whatever is being done in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, don't think that it is my influence of my... It is Kṛṣṇa's. Kṛṣṇa can do everything. He can change sattva-guṇa into tamo-guṇa, tamo-guṇa into rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa into sattva-guṇa. That is as He likes. Just like a expert electrician: he can turn the heater into cooler and cooler into heater. The electric energy is the same. Similarly, parasya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). He has His energy. If He likes... My point is that this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has come to your country by the will of Kṛṣṇa. So there is favorable situation because the will of Kṛṣṇa is there, that "Now the Westerners, especially the Americans, they should become Kṛṣṇa conscious." That is His will. So you take the opportunity, cooperate with Kṛṣṇa, and you will be successful.
Sri Isopanisad Lectures
So I also came for that purpose, because our modern India has rejected spiritual knowledge. They are thinking that if they can imitate Westernized technology, then they will be happy. This is māyā. They do not see that those who are advanced three hundred times more than us in technology, what they have got? They do not see that. India cannot advance in technology like America or Europe at least for three hundred years more, because in these Western countries they have taken this business since a very long time, but Indian culture, beginning from the creation, is spiritual culture. Vyāsadeva... Just see Vyāsadeva. He is the original guru, spiritual master, of Vedic knowledge. How he was living? In a cottage in Badarikāśrama. But just see his knowledge. He has written so many Purāṇas, and Bhāgavata-Purāṇa is one of them. The Vedānta philosophy, Mahābhārata, each and every verse if you study, you can study for the whole life. Similarly, in some book he has written 100,000's of verses, not less than 20,000, 25,000 verses.
General Lectures
Unfortunately, the present policy is that students are being taught to forget their old Vedic culture and try to imitate the Westernized way of life, industrial life, technical life. That is being encouraged. But here I find that the young men and young girls and boys, both, they are very much interested about Indian original culture of spiritual life. Recently, you know, some yogi came, and he simply bluffed so many people that "If you pay me thirty-five dollars, I will give you one personal mantra, and you will be in transcendental life," or so many things. So thousands and thousands of European boys and girls, as well as in America, they flocked together, but later on, they were frustrated. That means while the Indian youths are coming to the Western countries for advancement of technological knowledge, the Western boys and girls, they are hankering after spiritual life. This I have very particularly studied. I am here, not in Canada, in America. I came here in 1965, and I am studying the mind of the younger generation especially. They are hankering after something, spiritual enlightenment, not only in America, also in Europe. And they expect something from India because... It is a fact. I have read one book written by one Chinese gentleman. That book is recommended in the New York University for study.
Similarly, you may have hundreds or thousands of heating arrangements; still, you have to feel the effects of the cooling effect of winter season. You cannot... Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ (BG 2.14). We have traveled all over the world. I have seen different climatic influence, how people are suffering. In the Western countries they are thinking that "Indians are very happy because the country is very warm," and we are thinking that "The Western people are very happy because the country is very cold." But nobody is happy; that is a fact—neither the Westerners nor the Easterners—because all of them under the grip of māyā. That is a fact. So in this way you cannot escape the stringent laws of māyā, or material nature. That is impossible. That is said by Kṛṣṇa Himself. It is not my statement. Kṛṣṇa says, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). You cannot escape. Suppose you are escaping by some arrangement, by heating arrangement, by cooling arrangement. But that does not mean by that process you will escape the actual laws of material nature. Just like we have got cold storage. We keep fruits and other things in the cold storage. It looks that it is keeping fresh, but the decomposition method is not stopped there. As soon as you take out from the cold storage, it is all rotten.
So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra or bhakti-yoga Prahlāda Mahārāja recommends. Kaumāra ācaret. Kaumāra means the age from five years to fifteen years. So in all schools and colleges this chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra should be taught. If you actually want to advance your nationality, India, then you must take to this culture. That will glorify your country. You cannot compete the Westerners by technology. That is not possible. They are meant for that purpose. You are meant for different purpose. Your special advantage is that you were born in this land of Bhārata-varṣa after many, many births, after many, many pious activities. Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore, says,
- bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
So still, although India is poverty-stricken, they say... Wherever I go, they take that I am coming from a very poor country. We are advertised in that way, because whenever our big men go there, ministers, for begging something. So we have been taken, accepted as the beggar's country. But in the Berkeley University, when one Indian student protested that I am spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement... The only protest was by an Indian student. He said, "Swamiji, what benefit will be there by spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement?" In another place, a girl asked me, "Swamiji, what is God?" So I asked her, "Are you Indian? You should be ashamed of being called as Indian, because you are asking what is God. You are coming from India, the land of God, and you do not know what is God."
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. This is first time I have come to New Zealand. So thank you very much. Now have saṅkīrtana. (break)
Guest (1): ...views of Kṛṣṇa towards Westerners and drugs, especially by the young?
Devotee: "What is the views of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in regard to the people using drugs for spiritual enlightenment?"
Prabhupāda: That is not very palatable. Kṛṣṇa does not allow drugs in our movement. No. Kṛṣṇa says,
- yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
- janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
- te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
- bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- (BG 7.28)
One cannot take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness unless he is completely washed of all sinful activity. So we forbid four things because they are pillars of sinful activities: illicit sex life, intoxication, meat-eating, and gambling. Unless one gives up these four sinful activities it is not possible to approach Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa clearly says in the Bhagavad-gītā, yeṣām anta-gataṁ pāpam. Pāpam means sin. One who has finished the sinful activity... And these are four pillars of sinful activity. So we have to voluntarily give up these habits. That is called austerity, penance.
Guest (3) (Indian man): There is one thing, Swamijī, if I may, which I cannot reconcile. As an Indian, the question bothers me very, very often. I believe in a great many things which you say. There's no question about that. I'm not a Westernized Indian. But what I cannot reconcile is the fact that we who had this Vedic knowledge and all the things which you have just now said is the solution to all our problems, with all this knowledge, we have not been able to keep our society free from so many evils to come... I'm not only referring to the poverty, but to the other things...
Prabhupāda: No. It is due to bad leaders. It is due to bad leaders.
Guest (3): They are our own people. They...
Prabhupāda: They may be own, your father. Just like Prahlāda's father was Hiraṇyakaśipu, a demon. So what can be done? Prahlāda was a devotee, and his father was a demon.
Guest (3): Yes. He has to be destroyed.
Prabhupāda: So he was destroyed. He'll be destroyed. They are being destroyed. These demonic leaders will not stay. They'll be destroyed. But everything takes some time. Just like I told you that Gandhi, he understood the pulse of the country. He wanted to reorganize the villages, but our big Paṇḍitajī topsy-turvied everything.
Madhudviṣa: I think part of the question was this. One other man who comes from the East, Krishnamurti, he stresses that when you are speaking in the Western world, you should speak and present yourself as a Westerner, not as an Indian or not as you would speak in India. Instead of sitting on the raised dais, Vyāsāsana, and dressing in robes of a monk, Krishnamurti would say, "Dress in Western clothes and sit on a chair." The question was, "What is our opinion of this?"
Prabhupāda: Actually a God conscious person is neither Westerner nor Easterner. So anywhere he goes, the devotees, as they receive him, they accept. These devotees, they have arranged the raised seat, so we have accepted this raised seat. If they wanted to sit down on the floor, I would have gladly accepted. I have no objection, this or that. But as the devotees receive and they give honor, that is good for them, because actually we should honor the Supreme Lord, God, and His representative. Nowadays it is different. Students and people are learning not to honor. But that is not actually the system. According to Vedic system, the representative of God must be honored as God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. Just like in India we had British rule. The governor general, he was viceroy. So he was given honor, as much honor we used to give to the king. So that is the etiquette. That is the system. It is not that the honor given to the viceroy exactly like to the king, he becomes a king. No. He is servant of God. But it is the duty of the citizen to honor the representative of the king as king. That is etiquette. That is our Vedic system.
So this opportunity is here. Before Prabhupāda came to the Western countries, actually there was no hope. There was no hope at all. There was no such knowledge, there was no such opportunity to choose between material life and something else. There was no reality other than this body, and for everyone it was simply a very hopeless, distressful situation. But Prabhupāda personally, even at advanced age, he's coming simply to give this opportunity to the Westerners and to everyone throughout the world, that besides this material life, there is another, eternal life, and if you utilize your independence very carefully to transfer your attachment to this internal potency of devotional service and service to the Vaiṣṇavas and to Kṛṣṇa, then you can become free forever from the encumbrance of repeated birth and death and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the great fortune that has come upon us in the form of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, in the form of association with the pure devotee, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and in the form of chanting the holy name.
You can see that before me many Indians came in this Western world. They also preached about this Kṛṣṇa message or Bhagavad-gītā. Great scholars came. But you have to admit that before this, the Westerners never accepted this principle of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they could not deliver as it is. Now they are accepting. And there is immense potency. I have studied. There is immense potency of accepting. They are actually looking after this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the Western people. The other day I was talking with our Indian high commissioner. He also happens to be very nice, learned man. He said that "Swamiji, yes, they are looking after, like this." So, so far material advancement is concerned, they have seen enough of it.
Philosophy Discussions
Hayagrīva: Jung laments the fact that such a nonmaterialistic faith does not presently exist in the West. He writes, "Not only does the West lack a uniform faith that could block the progress of a fanatical ideology"—that is Marxism—"but as the father of Marxist philosophy," because Marx was a Westerner, "it makes use of exactly the same spiritual," so-called spiritual, "assumptions, the same arguments and aims." So he feels that man is desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning, and he feels that Christianity is no longer effective in combating this.
Prabhupāda: He has predicted very nice. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, which is above everything, either Christianism or Marxism or capitalism or anything. It is based on Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). So actually it is a fact. Kṛṣṇa says that if you adopt this principle of life, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then you will remain above all sinful reaction of life and make progress spiritually, gradually.
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
Journalist: Is there in India a licensing body by the state for people to preach or to... How in the heck would you say it here?
Prabhupāda: It was not there because in India there are so many churches, and they're supposed to be very saintly person. So simply to become a disciple of a saintly person is sufficient certificate. Just like in your country, marriage requires certificate. In India still, there is no certificate. The boys and girls, they are seated before the relatives and priest and elderly persons. They are offered. I am doing that. There is no certificate. But still their connection is lifelong. What certificate will do? That ceremony is so nice, the wife takes "My husband for life" and the husband takes wife, "She is my companion for life." They cannot separate. There is no history in India that there was a certificate issued. No. But still, their connection is so nice, that life long. Now, they are being westernized, especially I am very sorry to say that lately our so-called westernized leaders they are introducing this Hindu code bill, this marriage certificate, this and that. But formerly they weren't existing.
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Accha.
Allen Ginsberg: Bite your food. I have that question I wanted to asked. Are you tired?
Prabhupāda: No, no. I can talk with you whole night. (laughter)
Allen Ginsberg: So he said that his teacher in India told him that LSD was a Christ of the Kali-yuga for Westerners.
Prabhupāda: Christ?
Allen Ginsberg: of the Kali-yuga for Westerners in that, as the Kali-yuga got more intense, as attachment got thicker and thicker, that also salvation would have to be easier and easier, and that...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) (Bengali)
Allen Ginsberg: Namaste. (to Indian lady)
Prabhupāda: She is a Bengali lady recently come from London.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...among the different(?) peoples of Indian community.
Prabhupāda: This is organized by the Englishmen and the Americans. Indian communities in London and San Francisco, they are trying to become sahib. You know the word sahib?
Prof. Kotovsky: (laughs) Westernized.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Westernized.
Prof. Kotovsky: Modern process of Westernization is going on in the world. But Prof. Srinivas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...with the very grace (indistinct) of some anthropologists at Delhi University...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: I agree with him that a very interesting... Two processes. The process of Westernization among brāhmaṇa mainly and upper castes and so-called Sanskritization he calls the process of adopting some brāhmaṇa rituals, etc., by so-called low castes, even untouchables. Very interesting processes in India just now.
Prabhupāda: Now one thing... The other day I was speaking to some... Where I was? In Bombay, I think, I was speaking some respectable gentlemen that "Kṛṣṇa says:
- māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
- ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
- striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
- te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim
- (BG 9.32)
Kṛṣṇa says, 'Even those who are low-born, pāpa-yoni—the striya, vaiśya and śūdra, they are also included—but by accepting Me, accepting my shelter, they are also elevated to the transcendental position.' Now, why the higher class of Hindu society, they neglected this injunction of Bhagavad-gītā? Suppose one is pāpa-yoni. Kṛṣṇa says that 'They can be elevated to the transcendental position if they accept Me.'
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, of course, Indian government program is more and more secular in general ideology, westernized.
Prabhupāda: But of course, people are not very happier. One gentleman... He's in government service. I am speaking, in 19..., sometimes, 1950. He was in statistics department, Mr. Dal(?), Kashmiri gentleman. He was coming to me in Allahabad. He told me that "I went... I go to the villages, and the villagers say, 'Bābuji, angrej ko bahut (indistinct)?' " That was his statement.
Prabhupāda: No, the difficulty is...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...are both masters(?) and ex-British officers.
Prabhupāda: ... the difficulty, that India is nowhere. They are trying to imitate, Westernize, but they are hundred years back. From materialistic point of view, technological point of view, they are hundred years back.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, that's right, but what to do for India?
Prabhupāda: No. That not...
Prof. Kotovsky: To improve the condition of life, to be Westernized is the major problem.
Prabhupāda: That... But there is one thing that I am experiencing. India's the spiritual asset, if that is distributed, that will increase India's (indistinct). That is my... Because everywhere I go, still people adore India's spiritual culture. They are after India. And if they are properly distributed, the treasurehouse of Indian spiritual knowledge, then at least people outside India, they'll think that "We are getting something from India."
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I don't think that you object.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prof. Kotovsky: But at the same time, something has to be done in India itself. In what line, if you... One may call it Westernization from this introduction of technical revolution in all spheres of Indian life, in agriculture, industry, etc...
Prabhupāda: Now, this picture... This is Viṣvarūpa. It was shown to Arjuna. Now, Arjuna, before understanding Bhagavad-gītā, was a fighter, warrior. And after understanding Bhagavad-gītā, he remained a fighter. So we don't want to change the position. Just like you are a respectable professor, teacher. We don't say that you change your position. We have come to convince you about our philosophy. That's all. So just like the same example: Arjuna, he was denying to fight, "Kṛṣṇa, I do not like to kill my relatives. I don't want this kingdom." But he was taught Bhagavad-gītā. And at the end, when Kṛṣṇa inquired, "What is your decision now?" he said, kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73): "Yes, I shall act accordingly, as You say." That means his consciousness was changed. He remained a fighter. He was a fighter, he remained a fighter, but he changed his consciousness. We want that. We don't want to disturb the present condition of the society. No. But we try to make them understand that "There is a great necessity of you to understand this consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness." That is our goal.
Śyāmasundara: So they are not spoiled.
Prabhupāda: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Weir: Far more acceptable to every type of Christian than any of the specific creeds or sects, you know, the Church of England, Anglicans, Roman Catholics, every other form of prophecy. And you have that greater universality. (indistinct) And you've got Tibetans (who) will accept your places in the same way as a westerner could.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Dr. Weir: A Tibetan could accept your position.
Prabhupāda: Tiberian? Tibetians? What is their philosophy?
Dr. Weir: You've heard of the Dalai Lama?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What does he say?
Dr. Weir: Well, his position would be the same as yours. Wouldn't it? In religion?
Mensa Member: You mean the Tibetan Buddhist attitude about the Godhead is the same as the Kṛṣṇas?
Dr. Weir: Yes. They have that same basis.
Prabhupāda: But so far we know that Buddhists they do not believe in God, existence of God.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Revatīnandana: He would take it as prasāda? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So this is going on. What can be done? And here, in the western countries, they are innocent. I have told them that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, Supreme God." They have accepted it. Just like child. So they are making progress. And people are astonished, "How these westerners, they have become so nice devotee?" But they have accepted it without any argument.
Revatīnandana: I used to argue all the time. (laughter) You used to win every time.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That forgetfulness is forced. He's, he's not happy.
Malcolm: If he would then, when he is a grown person, recapture or re-feel the link to his reason for being, he must go back in his experience or thought to the point at which he cried to feel again the feeling of being lost. Now, the Western youth seem to have been forced to accept their position, and the position that they have accepted gives them no freedom to go back and find the point at which they felt the experience of the thing they had lost. So in their minds they would say, "There is something missing. There is no God. But there is a God. Yet I must find him with my mind." And then they know through the search that it is only going back through their own years of experience to the point at which they had lost that they will find it. But for the Westerner it clashes with his total Western heritage, the thing imposed him upon by his senses which is that he may not isolate himself from his community in order to go back. And the young people cannot move because this point holds them.
Prabhupāda: No. The young people, they are moving. They are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is no check. Because they are western boys, there is no check. Just like they're all Europeans, Americans. So how they are coming to Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It doesn't matter whether Western, Eastern. Natural propensity is the same, either in the East or in the West. So it doesn't matter. That is not impediment. Anywhere, the science is... Just like your physical science. It is as good as in the West as in the East. For the East, there cannot be a different physical science. The same science can be taught in the East and the West.
Yogeśvara: It's rather remarkable if one takes into account the fact that most of us come from backgrounds which had nothing whatsoever to do with the standards of brahminical culture.
Professor: That's right. Yes, that's...
Yogeśvara: We were, we were steeped in all kinds of bad habits.
Prabhupāda: No, according to Vedic injunction, the Westerners are mlecchas, yavanas. You know better than me.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So pāpa-yoni. And therefore, Kṛṣṇa says... What does He say?
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Kīrtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible?
Guest: I, I don't know. I'm just... He asked me to come and request it, so...
Prabhupāda: We are holding kīrtana here, morning and evening if one is interested.
Guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (2): We have thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Mahārāja's darśana.
Prabhupāda: Thirty Westerners?
Guest (1): Yes, that's right.
Prabhupāda: Oh. That, I have no objection, (indistinct) those who are organizing. You are also staying?
Guest (2): Yes.
Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask.
Guru dāsa: Do you have any, any other questions?
Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment.
Guru dāsa: You don't have to explain your presence in (indistinct).
Guest (1): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Where is the Deity?
Devotee: Taken on saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Take your time and...
Devotee: Saṅkīrtana, when you're able.
Prabhupāda: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupāda: Yes. But the westerners are not that. (break) ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...,
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): Inquiring of anything and every...
Prabhupāda: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.
Dr. Patel: Yes. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavata you get so many stories wherein all of devas and kinnaras, they come in their own planes and stand there with the planes. How could they stand with their planes down there?
Prabhupāda: That is much improved. This is not so much improved.
Dr. Patel: And in good old days when the planes were not in existence, the westerners thought that we were all fairy stories.
Prabhupāda: That we are also thinking, "There is no Kṛṣṇa. There is no background." We are also thinking. (chuckles) Although we are big, big leaders, we are simply imitators of the westerners. That's all. Western people are our father and mother. That is our modern Indian... Now, western people are drinking wine. Now the government is drinking. Gandhi stopped it, but "No, the western people do." Unless they drink wine, they cannot be very... They work...
Dr. Patel: Here they are all now alco...
Prabhupāda: So western people, western civilization has become the father and mother of India.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...devotees, they do not want any opulence of this material world. They are, what is called, pessimistic. They do not give any value to the opulence of this material world. And it is very good philosophy. But fools and rascals, they are attracted. Now, these buildings were constructed, very highly intellectual men undoubtedly, but they enjoyed, say, for hundred years. That's all. Then their bodies changed, and nobody knows what kind of body he has got. This is materialism. Suppose if you are offered some very nice comfortable life, and if you know that "Next life I am going to become a dog," would you be happy? But they have no information that what next body... Body, he has to take another body. He cannot enjoy. Whatever he has created, he cannot enjoy for good. That is not possible. He has to leave it. Just like these Romans. They have left. They constructed so big, big building just to enjoy, but they had to leave it by nature's force and accept another body. That they do not know. They are satisfied, "Never mind, I accept the next life a dog's body. Now let me enjoy this, say, twenty-five years or fifty years, that's all." This is their philosophy. No future. "Trust no future, however pleasant." In India, those who are interested in spiritual life, they take sannyāsa. Everybody sannyāsa, bābājī. Rūpa Gosvāmī gave up his service, everything, and became no possessions voluntarily. Big, big kings, Bharata Mahārāja... To practice that "I have no more interest in anything material." (break) ...introduction of my Guru Mahārāja that sannyāsīs and preachers may use big, big buildings, motorcars and..., just to give the information to the western world. Because they, if you ask them, that "You become a mendicant, possessionless," still, they are not very much interested. Because they see our dress, our living condition is not very equal to their standard, they do not like. Is it not? Yes. So just to give these Westerners facilities at least to understand this philosophy, this method was accepted by Guru Mahārāja, to live in nice building, to have cars, to use everything for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Otherwise, nobody would take.
Yogeśvara: One problem that seems to be occurring more and more frequently is the appearance of terrorists, that is to say, men who are motivated for some political, mostly political reasons.
Prabhupāda: Yes the whole basic principle I have already explained. Because they are animals, so sometimes ferocious animal. That's all. Animal, there are different types of animals. Tigers and lions, they are ferocious animal. But you live in the animal society. So animal society, some, another animal comes as very ferocious, that is not very astonishing. After all, you are living in animal society. So you become human being, ideal. This is the only solution. We have already declared, this is animal society. If some ferocious animal comes out, so where is the astonishment? After all, it is animal society. Either a tiger comes or elephant comes, they are all animals. That's all. But you don't become animal. Counteract. That is required. Then after... A human being is called rational animal. If you come to the rationality, that is required. If you remain also another animal, another type of animal, that will not help you. You have to become actually human being. But durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. You have to... These people they have no aim of life. What is the aim of human..., they do not know. So their animal propensities are being adjusted this way, that way, this way, that way. Just like they go to see naked dance. The animal propensity—he is seeing his wife daily naked, and still he is going to see naked dance, and paying some fees. Because they have no engagement except this animalism. Is it not? So what is the use of going to see another woman naked? You are seeing every day, every night, your wife naked. Why you are... Because they have no other engagement. The animals. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām (SB 7.5.30). That a dog, it does not know what is the taste. He is simply chewing the, one bone, this way, that way, this way, that way. Because he is animal. He has no other engagement. So this whole society is animal. Especially the westerners. And they have developed a civilization on that animal propensities, means "I am this body, and the best use of my life is to gratify senses." This is animal.
Prabhupāda: Very good reputation that you have become perfectly Vaiṣṇava.
Devotee: No, he means the western people themselves.
Prabhupāda: "They must be cynic, crazy, another edition of hippies." Like that, they say like that.
Devotee: They think that... They won't allow even a westerner to marry their daughter, because the westerners have a reputation of marrying for a week and then flying away. So they think like that of the people. Even our own men, sometimes the Indian girls wanted to marry the brahmacārīs, the American brahmacārīs, but the parents would not allow because they said, "After you are married a week, he will just run away back to his country and leave you here." So they are thinking like that about the westerners, that they, the life is so fast.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Another brahmacārī saved.
Prabhupāda: One of our man has done so. You know that Rāmānuja? The Mexican boy?
Devotee: There's that boy in Bombay he married one Indian girl.
Prabhupāda: He is staying.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Everything is there. All questions solved, economic, social, religious, politics, whatever you are-plus transcendental knowledge.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said it seems to him that this involves a retiring from ordinary life, western life, and even maybe retiring from ordinary eastern life.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of western life or eastern life. The life... Just like westerners, they eat, and the easterners, they eat. Now the question is how to supply eating. (break)
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that the way we dress, our whole way of life, will make our movement only available to a few people because it requires someone who is prepared to completely change his way of life.
Prabhupāda: Well, when there is question of knowledge, only you will find a few people to get the knowledge. When you put this question, "Find out some learned scholar," generally they will be very... Their number will be very little. But one thing is that if there is one man in real knowledge, he can give the..., distribute the knowledge to many. The example is just like ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasraśaḥ: If you get one moon at night, that is sufficient to dissipate the darkness. And there are millions of stars—it is useless. So it is necessarily not required that everyone should be in perfect knowledge. But if one man is in perfect knowledge, hundreds and thousands can hear from him and they can perfect(?). So it does not depend on the quantity; it depends on the quality.
Satsvarūpa: Yes, he... (Break)
Prabhupāda: The Bhagavad-gītā is read all over the world. So we can better talk on the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Our philosophy is we present Bhagavad-gītā as it is, without malinterpretation. So we want to defy everyone who is malinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā. So we have to follow the authorities. And Bhagavad-gītā is accepted as authority. Otherwise, why they're reading so widely all over the world Bhagavad-gītā? Why not come on this term? Why you catch up so many literature? If, on this basis, there is a conference, that will be profitable, that "If you accept Bhagavad-gītā as authority or one of the authorities, so you cannot misinterpret the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā." But the Westerners, they are very expert in misinterpreting even their own Bible. We say that if you interpret any śāstra, either Bible or Bhagavad-gītā, then it is no more śāstra. It is your play toy. By so-called your rascal vote, without any reason and rhythm and rhyme, you can do everything.
Brahmānanda: Why is India not satisfied with its own culture? If the Westerners are now going after the spiritual culture...
Prabhupāda: Because your forefathers came from England and taught them like this. That is the real fact. India was satisfied, but the Lord Macauley, they said no, that if you keep Indian as Indian, you'll never be able to rule lower down. Cultural conqueror. So they began to teach Indians England's work in India. "Whatever you have got, that is all nonsense. You learn from us." And the first product is Jawaharlal Nehru. This is the misfortune of foreign rule.
Yaśodānandana: It would seem then that English culture is stronger than Indian culture then.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Yaśodānandana: It seems that the English culture has conquered over the Indian culture then.
Prabhupāda: No, Indian culture is still going on. It is not lost. Otherwise how it is going to your country and bringing you? (laughter)
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You have to judge by the fruits.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You cannot teach your own people, and you are going to teach others. "Physician heal thyself." Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Greets someone.) You have failed to teach your own children, they are disappointed, and you are going to teach others. This is another cheating. It is not the question of... That is another fault—"our," "your." There is no question of "our," "your." Any culture, actually if it is culture, it is meant for the whole human society. Why do you say, "our," "your." We never say, "The Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant for Indians," or "for the Europeans." It is meant for everyone. That is our proposition. You have made this "our," "your," and bring another controversy. That is not the fact. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is meant both for the Indians and the Westerners. That is the fact. When Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), "You have to change your body," Kṛṣṇa never meant that it is meant for the Indians. It is meant for everyone. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is not meant that Indians only change and they become vanished, European. Dehāntara-prāptiḥ is everyone. So try to understand this philosophy.
Jayādvaita: The karmīs will say that materialistic culture is also meant for the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we admit. The materialistic culture, how to eat nicely, that is meant for everyone. Everyone wants to eat nicely, not that only Europeans want, not the Indians. That is material. To sleep nicely in a good apartment, that is wanted by both the Easterners and Westerners. So there is no discrimination. Sex life, that is meant for everyone. So as material life is also meant for everyone, similarly, spiritual life is also meant for everyone.
Jayādvaita: So there are only two cultures.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are this part of Indian, the Fiji Indians. They have learned the art of divorce.
Amogha: They are very Western, westernized.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, how can the position be reconciled if in Kṛṣṇa consciousness one of the two, the husband or the wife, wants to enjoy sense gratification, but the other does not? Should there be separation then?
Prabhupāda: No... They should be trained up. Sense enjoyment means not advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. As soon as one is advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his sense enjoyment spirit will be reduced. That is the test. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra ca (SB 11.2.42). The test is, how you are advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the proportionate diminishing of sense enjoyment. That is the test. Just like cure of the disease means diminishing the fever, temperature. This is the test.
Prabhupāda: No, why? They knew. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "I am not going to die after the annihilation of this body." It was a common understanding. Not that such a man, big man, director, he says, "No, no, I don't believe in the soul." (chuckles) Therefore I said the fourth-class man. In India still, even a common man, uneducated farmer, he believes. He believes. He believes in God. He believes in transmigration. He believes in his karma. These things which will take thousands of years to be learned by the Westerners, even the common man knows still.
Devotee (1): And all Kṛṣṇa's soldiers were killed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: So Kṛṣṇa fought against His own soldiers also.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa did not fight.
Amogha: Oh, that's right.
Prabhupāda: He did not.
Madhudviṣa: And the demigods we cannot see. Like the demigods, the higher human species, we cannot see.
Prabhupāda: You, why do you believe on your seeing? That is the defect. That is the defect of the Westerners. They are very deficient; still they say, "I cannot see." What is your seeing power? Suppose if Nārada comes, some demigods come, but you cannot see. Just like when Lord Nṛsiṁha-deva appeared, Prahlāda was seeing. "Is your God here?" "Yes." And he could not see. So why do you believe so much on your seeing? You have to attain seeing power. That is very good example, Prahlāda... Hiraṇyakaśipu asking Prahlāda, "Where is your God?" "My God is everywhere." "He is on the pillar?" "Yes." So he was seeing, but he was not seeing. He became angry and broke the pillar. "Let me see, where is your God." This is the position. So one has to create the eyes to see things. Not that whatever eyes you have got you can see everything. No. Just like motorcar is being driven, a child is seeing that the car is running automatically. And the father is seeing, "No, there is driver."
Australian devotee 2: Śrīla Prabhupāda, most of the people in the western world are Christians and they say the cow has no soul.
Prabhupāda: This is not the question of Christian or western. This is the disease of the whole world. It is not that only the westerners are accused, not the others. No, it is... We don't say like that. Everyone... This is the influence of this Kali-yuga.
Australian devotee 2: They feel justified in killing because they say the animal has no soul.
Prabhupāda: Just see how fool they are. Therefore we simply say these are rascals. They have not even the common sense of an uneducated man. And they are scientist. Why there is no soul? What is the proof? What is their argument? Why they say there is no soul? What is the argument?
Australian devotee 2: Because it says in the Bible that until one accepts Jesus Christ one has no soul.
Prabhupāda: Jesus Christ said that animal has no soul? Has he said like that? Has he said?
Australian devotee 2: He says that one must be born again.
Prabhupāda: Never he can say like that. He is not such a fool. He cannot say that.
Bahulāśva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupāda: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Kṛṣṇa. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is stated in the śāstra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Kṛṣṇa. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brāhmaṇa, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner—his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible. It is all foolishness.
Kartikeya: We can go this small park.
Harikeśa: It's a nice park?
Kartikeya: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now these rascal Westerners, there the women claiming equal rights. Change that the man will give birth to a child and not the woman.
Kartikeya: Equal right.
Prabhupāda: Equal rights. Make agreement. "Once you beget; once I shall." (laughs) Make this contract. Then it is equal right. If the woman has to give birth of a child and she has to suffer all the pains thereof, then where is the equal right? Where is equal right? Nature has said, "You must suffer." The husband, the so-called husband, will give birth, er, will utilize you for sex satisfaction, and you will be pregnant, and he will go away and you will suffer the whole life to maintain the child, welfare—"Give me some money"—or this or that. Where is equal right? He is free. He has gone away. Huh? This is general experience in the Western countries.
Prabhupāda: What is the doubt? Doubt means they cannot drink, they cannot continue slaughterhouse, they cannot continue brothels. That's all. This is their doubt, that "How these things will be maintained? This is our life." That is doubt, and that is the difficulty. As soon as we say, "No this," oh, they are in danger. Even Marquis of Zetland, "Oh, it is impossible to give up. This is our life." There is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. They cannot think of, especially the Westerners, that without these things one can live. So many, our disciples, left. Rāyarāma left: "Oh, Swamiji is denying the preliminary necessities of life." This is the preliminary necessities of life: illicit sex, meat-eating, drinking, gambling. They cannot think that a man can live without these things. Therefore people are wonderful, that "How he is turning these Europeans, Americans to this standard?" That is their wonder. Nobody can think of, that these things can be given up and one can avoid it. It is dream. Your government, American government, is also surprised that "We have spent so much money for stopping this LSD, and this man by saying his disciples, they are giving up." Judah has also mentioned that. That is their surprise—"How these things can be given up? It is impossible."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: All of the ships would go around the south of Africa up to England. So they would maintain their shipping route. But now... That's a fact. They don't need it.
Prabhupāda: And that Suez Canal is closed, complete?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, it's open again. (break) It is not as Westernized as in a place like Nairobi.
Prabhupāda: The Africans are all thieves.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Here there is not as much stealing as in Nairobi. (break) I think they have had to amputate afterwards, mangled by the shore. It happens frequently. On some of the beaches here they've put up signs that "There are many sharks in the water. It is dangerous to bathe here." Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā, "Amongst fish, I am the shark." (Prabhupāda chuckles) He shaved off his beard yesterday, this young boy. He shaved off. He had beard. He shaved off.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Further progress.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...philosophy is also incorrect, there is no life after death.
Dr. Patel: Who says so?
Prabhupāda: Oh, so many, all Westerners.
Dr. Patel: The Easterns... That does not mean... The Eastern philosophy is only with the jāgrati stage. But the jīva has got three stages, and the fourth stage, the turīya stage, is the real stage that we understand. They don't have idea of it, unfortunately. So that philosophy is not the real philosophy of life. Life as a whole should have its own philosophy. They don't understand that there is anything beyond the jāgrati stage. But then there is a svapna stage, there is a sleep stage and the turīya stage. In that if I am wrong you may correct me, sir.
Prabhupāda: You cannot be corrected.
Akṣayānanda: Sometimes I think our big building is too much Westernized. Disturbs the atmosphere.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Akṣayānanda: Like you wrote in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta that when Caitanya Mahāprabhu had many disciples behind him, He was criticized that He should not take them to Vṛndāvana. It might disturb the nice atmosphere. We have to be careful that we don't disturb with our big buildings and things. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...transform into a nice park this space. (break)
Akṣayānanda: Did Giridhārīlal see you last night, from the Mathurā Janmasthān? (break) ...influence Dalmia, but I don't know. We haven't seen any results yet regarding the gośālā. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sandy. We want to avoid this sandy.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will be very much appreciated by everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not too cold in Vṛndāvana? I don't think so. End of February is not cold.
Harikeṣa: For Westerners it's not cold.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, Westerners are accustomed to that. They'll like it. They'll prefer it. They won't mind. They can't take the heat. Vṛndāvana is very cold in mid-February, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Not. Vṛndāvana is very cold December-January.
Prabhupāda: Because he is visualizing that by our propaganda throughout the whole world, people will come here. That he has already seen. And if we do not go there, then he becomes insignificant.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we don't means if anyone from all over the world who comes...
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally.
Bhavānanda: People are attracted by the Westerners coming to the maṭha. So if we're up at that maṭha, any of us, and then they say, "Just see." They say in Bengali, "Just see. They are coming. To see our guru mahārāja, they are coming."
Prabhupāda: That was the policy of Mādhava Mahārāja and Śrīdhara Mahārāja, that "Although Bhaktivedanta Swami is propagating throughout, he is subordinate to us, under our instruction." So all these three...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A real dream world they are living in.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Written within the last thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You know that? They say like that. So many rascals are there. And this is the only shelter, these, our centers, to be protected from all these rascals. These ISKCON centers are the only shelter. So you have to maintain it very nicely. There is no other shelter. All bogus more or less, all bogus. But you have to, not to... You quote, but the purpose of the verse you present reasonably. If you simply quote, it will not be simply very appealing. "Oh, they are simply..." Sometimes the Westerner criticize that, my Godbrother, Sadānanda? He was criticizing that "Your presentation..." "Your" means our, this Vaiṣṇava literature. "Simply you quote some Sanskrit verse, that's all." So these Sanskrit verses should be explained for understanding of the modern people. If you simply quote, it is not very appealing. In Durban..., Durban? We went to that university. You remember? That Ārya-samājī? He was speaking that "This is Hindu conception. Hindu conception." And what do you mean by Hindu conception? A child grows to become a boy. Is that Hindu conception? It is science. When Kṛṣṇa said, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā (BG 2.13), that's a fact. It is applicable to the Hindus, to the Muslim, to the Christian, everyone. Why do you say it is Hindu conception? So you have to present in that way. They may not think that it is Hindu conception. Because they are all rascals, unless you explain it, that this is meant for everyone, they will misunderstand that Bhāgavata is for the Hindus or for the Indians. It is for everyone. But one must realize. There is no question of Hindu conception or Muslim conception. (rattling sound) So this will go on whole day? "Cut-cut-cut-cut"?
Jayapatākā: There was nine ṛṣis of one rājā, and then she was the daughter of one of those ṛṣis.
Prabhupāda: Oh, maybe, daughter or wife.
Jayapatākā: Wife of a..., also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's amazing how everything is so scientifically analyzed in the Vedas. The Westerners...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say "perfect." Śruti-pramāṇam.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even to the point of knowing about a certain amount of rain coming at the end of a particular season and how that indicates about the administration.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, everything. Daṇḍa-rājā puṇya-deśa.
Jayapatākā: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (break) "...whether you have got such buildings, whether you have got such books, whether you have got such disciples, whether you have traveled so..."? Then what they will, will be reply? Hm?
Indian man (1): Mr. Shannam?
Prabhupāda: No, no. From France.
Devotee (2): The professor.
Prabhupāda: Hm. He has mentioned, "From the Vedic standard, we are all uncivilized. We Westerners are uncivilized." He has admitted that. Actually they are.
Dayānanda: Yes, they will be shocked when they find this out because the idea is that...
Prabhupāda: Now, just like a man is suffering from tuberculosis, and if his physician says that "You are attacked with tuberculosis," then he'll shocked. But the fact is there.
Dayānanda: They think that the Vedic culture is uncivilized.
Prabhupāda: They think because they are foolish rascals. They do not know what is the value of life. Big, big professor, he said, "Swamiji, after death everything is finished. There is no soul." Professor Kotovsky. This is their education.
Revatīnandana: "But I am a fool, so I will keep trying. I will not surrender to Kṛṣṇa."
Jayatīrtha: They like to be a fool.
Prabhupāda: And...
Gurukṛpā: They say, "You Westerners have enjoyed the material life, and we have not. Therefore let us enjoy, and then we will become."
Prabhupāda: What is that enjoyment? Is that enjoyment? They are working so hard for ten rupees. Is that enjoyment? The enjoyment is "the future, future." "At night I shall go to my wife and enjoy"—that is enjoyment. But for that enjoyment he is working so hard. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Everyone is thinking, "I shall enjoy at night," and working hard. That's all. This is enjoyment.
Pañca-draviḍa: "But why do you blame us for not surrendering when we see that even Kṛṣṇa's devotees can't surrender to Him? They come to us and ask us for money for these books. Why don't they give them away?"
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa's devotee.... When he surrenders, he is devotee. When he does not, he is not devotee; he is trying to become devotee.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You are going for export and import. We want to export books, import incense. On this plea, exchange.
Hṛdayānanda: That is how the Westerners originally entered China.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And similarly, you have got already some inquiries from booksellers from Russia. On that plea—he is also sales organization—do something there. We have got philosophy, books, approved by learned circles. There is good chance. Our Trivikrama Mahārāja reported. He went to that Formosa? Trivikrama?
Guru-kṛpā: Taiwan.
Prabhupāda: You went there.
Trivikrama: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The report was the men there were very nice.
Trivikrama: Yes, they were.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are suffering. You should admit. Just like a prison department is part and parcel of the government. But who is in the prison, he is suffering.
Reporter (2): That's a very good answer. That's a wonderful answer.
Reporter (3): Your Divine Grace, would your message be exactly the same for, say, a starving man in India and a Westerner who's got everything that a person needs?
Prabhupāda: We say that not only in India, everyone, you'll starve, because you are rebellious to God consciousness. You must starve. That is the punishment. Just like anyone who is a criminal, he must be punished. That is the law of nature.
Reporter (3): So by that, I suppose one would presume that people in India have been most rebellious to God.
Prabhupāda: Why India? Everywhere. Why you speak India?
Reporter (3): Because...
Prabhupāda: When you speak of God, don't take India, or America or Europe. Everywhere.
Prabhupāda: But we shall go this way?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's okay. The car is just back here when you want to go back.
Devotee (1): On one tape in America you said that the Westerners have created many, many parks, but because they are so busy trying to work hard for money they cannot take advantage.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): Therefore we will come early in the morning and take advantage.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our ājagara-vṛtti. Ājagara-vṛtti means we haven't got to work for anything. Everything should be done by others, and we shall take possession of it. (laughter) Just like the Americans. They have earned so much money, and I have gone there and taking possession. I am not more clever than the Americans? (laughs) "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and give money. I'll take to India." What do you think?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You once gave the example of a mouse. The mouse digs a hole, and then the snake comes along and takes the house away from the mouse.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And eats him. The mouse makes very comfortable home by digging, and the snake comes, he enters without any labor, and the mouse is there and he eats it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Even one of our Indian men they stopped. Caitya-guru told me that when he went there they thought he was Westerner. They wouldn't let him in the second time he tried to go in.
Dr. Patel: This gentleman is coming before the judge of the Bombay high-court.
Guru dāsa: We can see the cakra on the top.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru dāsa: We can see the cakra on the top. It is the same.
Dr. Patel: (break) No, no, no, don't. It should have been taken out, not here but there. That was not for, but that was the government of India wanted to construct an office for customs here, and we objected, that "You can't do it in the sea area where we have to..., on the beach." So they broke it down. You know that small.... It will not be.
Prabhupāda: It can continue. It can continue.
Dr. Patel: They come down there and just stay for pleasure. Because this temple.
Prabhupāda: No, no, nobody can stay without following our rules and regulations. That is not our...
Dr. Patel: Externally they may follow. They may be people, out of difficulty...
Guru dāsa: Everyone is in difficulty.
Prabhupāda: It will be an institution for teaching spiritual life. So if he does not take the teaching, then it is not...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-kṛpā: In the beginning you just asked everyone to chant, and naturally they wanted to do more after.
Prabhupāda: And if they chant, gradually they'll be purified. (chants japa) (break) ...you take another body, you will greet.... This philosophy does not appeal to the Westerners. Eh? I think so. "Oh, what nonsense this is, speaking?" Eh? Do they not think like that?
Guru-kṛpā: Yes, they do.
Prabhupāda: But that is the actual fact.
Devotee (1): This philosophy's alien to everything they heard, so it's different than everything they heard.
Prabhupāda: No, no, the.... A fact is that. Why it is alien?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Well, the Western religions have taught that whatever you do in this lifetime will determine whether you go to heaven or hell, and there's no second chance.
Prabhupāda: So.... So they are not afraid of going to hell? There are two alternatives, either heaven or hell. But if he's going to hell?
Guru-kṛpā: That's why they have confession.
Prabhupāda: Oh, finished everything.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Now they're coming, so many.
Prabhupāda: They were coming. But I was engaged in writing. I was not visiting many...
Hari-śauri: (break) ...when they begin to write, then they finish up their activities and retire and simply write. But you wrote first and then came out.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I personally, I don't think that even Americans or Westerners would have accepted even your teachings as clear as they are without having your personal association and seeing your example. I think people would have thought that it's totally impossible to do such a thing.
Hari-śauri: It would have remained theoretical. But because you came and showed practical example, then everything has become very easy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīvera śikṣāya. That is the way of teaching. Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do.
Prabhupāda: Because they are spiritually enlightened. That is the cause of brightness. And materially involved-moroseness. Because it is ignorance. Material life means life of ignorance. And spiritual life means life of enlightenment. That is the difference. Material life is called tamas. Tamas means darkness. Tamaso mā jyotir gamaya. This is the Vedic mantra. Don't remain in darkness. But people cannot understand. "I am living in the light. Why I'm darkness?" Darkness means without any spiritual enlightenment. That is darkness. So the Vedic injunction is "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." The light is my spiritual life, and material life means darkness. Because he does not know what is going to happen next. You are under the laws of material nature. The nature will act according to the association you make, exactly. You do not know that you are infecting some contagious disease. You may not know it, but it will act. In due course of time, you'll develop that disease and suffer. Similarly, without knowledge, in ignorance, imperceptibly we are associating with a certain law of nature, and we shall be victimized. We may not know it, but we shall be victimized. That is the life of ignorance. A child does not know that if he touches the fire it will burn and it will cause some disease, some sore. He does not know. But he, somehow or other, if he touches fire, these things will come. This is the life of ignorance. You do something, you do not know what is the effect. But the effect will come, and you'll have to suffer. You know or not know, it doesn't matter. That is ignorance. Life of darkness. The Christian theologicians, they say that "Why shall I suffer for my...?" They do not believe in the karma, fruitive activity. But that means ignorance. They have no sufficient knowledge. Karma is there and effect is there, but they do not know it. Poor fund of knowledge. Therefore it is failing. They have failed, these Christian priest, to explain everything philosophically. So advanced Westerners, they are now educated in science philosophy, they are not attracted with these dogmatic views. So to remain in ignorance is animal life. To be enlightened is human life. And the topmost enlightenment is to understand God and to love Him. That is the topmost enlightenment. Unfortunately, there is no education to know what is God, and what to speak of loving Him. This is modern civilization. Ignorance. A civilization of ignorance.
Prabhupāda: You may read that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "One of India's biggest and most ancient religious festivals, Ratha-yātrā, the festival of the chariots, which has been enacted in several Western cities in recent years, is to be staged in South Africa in July. The festival in honor of Lord Kṛṣṇa is planned to be held in Durban next month by the local branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, widely known as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. Based on the thousands-of-years-old annual parade of the three main deities of the Jagannātha temple on huge chariots through the streets of Purī, Orissa, the festival has been staged by devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa in major world cities such as London, Paris, New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Chicago, Montreal and Melbourne, following the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness amongst thousands of Westerners in the decade since the founding of the movement in 1966 by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda. Almost a million devotees participate in the chariot festival held every summer at Purī, where they offer oblations to Lord Kṛṣṇa; lend a hand, tugging the ropes, to pull the huge chariots; line the grand route; or simply attend to see the color and pageantry from high vantage points. Jagannātha-The three colossal chariots from which the term Jagannātha is derived carry the three Jagannātha Deities of Lord Balarāma, the Lord who gives spiritual strength and pleasure; Lady Subhadrā, one who is the auspicious one; and Lord Jagannātha, the Lord of the universe,"—with a capital L—"on the three-kilometer journey symbolizing Lord Kṛṣṇa's visit to the town of His childhood pastimes. This year ISKCON will sponsor Ratha-yātrā festivals in ten cities worldwide. Durban, however, is not amongst them, as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is fairly new and has not yet established itself on a firm basis and increased its following in Durban. Branch members are enthusiastic and are hoping to organize a procession of their own through the streets of Durban to coincide with the festivals which will be held in several major cities."
Prabhupāda: They are arranging like that or not? Our branch there?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They want to. I told them that better to wait until they have some more local support, because they would have to have Deity worship, and I don't think they're ready for Jagannātha deities there. There's only eleven devotees in Durban. So when they have some more local support, they can start holding.
Prabhupāda: No, this Jagannātha festival will be participated by all the Indians. There is no doubt about it. So our few men, and with the cooperation of the local Indians, it can be successful.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Hari-śauri: Very fragrant.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: There's plenty of milk and ghee.
Prabhupāda: This is human food. They do not know how to eat, the Westerners. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: ...ever eat these nice foods they give up so much sinful activity, very easily.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Kīrtanānanda: By just eating nice foods they can give up so much sinful activity.
Prabhupāda: Who has made them?
Kīrtanānanda: Different devotees, mother Lakhima, mother (indistinct).
Hari-śauri: Combined effort.
Kīrtanānanda: Tamāla has said that there's only one other place in the US now that has Vedic cooking. (break)
Prabhupāda: Facility to get enough ghee.
Hari-śauri: Fresh vegetables, everything. (break)
Kīrtanānanda: ...Indians come and they always say, "Who has taught you to cook like this?" We tell them, "Śrīla Prabhupāda has taught us everything."
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) (break) Many Indians come?
Kīrtanānanda: Yes. (break) ...membership program now.
Prabhupāda: They say about the Westerners, you do not know? They say paścime lokā mūla nacaḥ.(?) The Western people, they are rascals and misbehaved.
Kīrtanānanda: Misbehaved, that's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Paścime loka mūla nacaḥ.(?) This means from India, the farther you go to the western side you'll find only rascals and misbehaved. From Punjab you go to Afghanistan and then Iran then so on, so on, Europe. These are paścima, Western people. Paścime loka mūla nacaḥ. Actually he meant it for Indian paścima, east and west. You came before here, New Vrindaban?
Ṛṣi Kumāra: Yes, I was here, but a long time ago, when they just had the little farm, about six years ago.
Prabhupāda: What did he say?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He's back in Europe. This letter's from Germany. He mentions that he's getting some more buses and about fifteen more men to come along with some preaching equipment. They plan on leaving early August and are reaching there late August sometime. And so far he mentions that he still has no definite idea how to keep the buses in India, so the other buses will be coming out and two more buses will be coming in. This is his plan. Then he mentions that he had some correspondence with Lokanātha Swami, who's heading up the traveling party while he's in Europe, and Lokanātha Swami mentions they've been doing saṅkīrtana in Darmashala on the way up to Sri Nagar, Kashmir. And he says they are doing well everywhere they go.
Prabhupāda: India, everywhere they'll be received very nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is bona fide guru.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru. In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back-he's very popular in the United States today—he says that everyone is guru and everyone is God.
Prabhupāda: And people accept that?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point.
Devotee (2): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Bhagavad-gītā...
Prabhupāda: First of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru.
Prabhupāda: Beef, especially beef.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kīrtanānanda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupāda says Why superstitious? The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow, the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say, in India, how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupāda proposed that "If you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?"
Prabhupāda: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupāda says, for the saner section, they will accept.
Hari-śauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat.
Prabhupāda: Madman...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But they still get it.
Prabhupāda: But he'll get meat.
Hari-śauri: This opening comment in this magazine is very good, it says, "What is surprising about the International Society for Krishna Consciousness is not its conquest of the West, the USA in particular. The cultural impact of this institution, borne on the shoulders of Westerners in the main, has already reached amazing proportions in India."
Prabhupāda: That is my policy.
Devotee (1): That's nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew. That's why they are afraid of you in India, Prabhupāda. The government is very much afraid.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, government is alarmed.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well how will they try to stop us?
Prabhupāda: Through restrictive government(?). (door opens) Who is...? Let him come.
Devotee (1): Here he comes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara Prabhu? Prabhupāda wanted to see that boy-Arjuna Mallick?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I went to find him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I sent someone to look for him, they haven't come back. You haven't seen him? It would be nice, because Prabhupāda wanted to see him.
Prabhupāda: You know him? Arjuna Mallick?
Hari-śauri: I only saw him just this morning.
Prabhupāda: Just find him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This man says "Norbell, for over thirty years his unrelenting thirst for spiritual fulfillment has taken him to the most remote corners of the globe to finally become one of the few Westerners in our time who has ever gained acceptance as an equal among the holy masters of both India and Tibet. He has also mastered the scientific secrets of Western knowledge in America's most highly regarded universities. In America alone over the past decade, tens of thousands have come to Carnegie Hall in New York and dozens of other centers of public hearing all to hear him." He says, "Meditation can make this claim alone, and it's yours to keep. Your own mantra free, even if you return the report itself. Mail this coupon at no risk today. 'Gentlemen, please rush me a copy of Norbell's five minute de-mystified transcendental meditation.' " (laughter) De-mystified, taking the mystery out. "Confidential report. 'I enclose nine dollars and ninety-eight cents in full payment. I understand that I may examine this confidential report for thirty days at your risk or money back. Also send me my own private mantra, specially selected for me by Master Norbell and mine absolutely free, even if I return the report with every cent of my money back.' " It says here—these are the benefits of the mantra—one of the benefits is, it says here, one of the benefits, "and as an extra benefit of such heightened personal magnetism, a simple shift in the focus of your daily meditations can give you great new sexual and romantic powers, new joys in love."
Devotee (1): They're all cheaters.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's another group called Arika.(?) This Arika(?) costs three thousand dollars, this process. They charge three thousand dollars for a ninety-day course.
Ādi-keśava: Part of their whole meditation is they have cocktail parties. They drink liquor and they have these therapy, and they charge him money to go to a cocktail party, they call it yoga.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it's got a good article about us. You want to keep it to show guests who come the article?
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Hari-śauri: Anyone who reads that magazine will immediately become attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there's no comparison.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's got the best article I've ever seen though, about us, in great detail. It really reports the details.
Prabhupāda: Hmm. This is also good article. (break) Hm! Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, where is the key? Key? Distribute this prasādam.
Indian man (2): There are many swamis coming from India nowadays, and they are trying to establish, some of them like Gaṇapati temples or the Lord Śiva temples, and so forth, and trying to confuse Westerners, especially Americans, because most of them, they do come to America. Being Indian, how we can help about this confusion?
Prabhupāda: You take Bhagavad-gītā as standard. Who is the Hindu or Indian there who can refuse the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? So you present them Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then it will not happen. I don't think any Indian or any Hindu can deny the authority of Bhagavad-gītā. Is there anyone?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: Then you present them. That is, I have taken, that this is the summum bonum of Indian culture, Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavad-gītā is accepted all over the world as the greatest book of knowledge, so take this standard and preach, and people will be enlightened, without misinterpretation.
Guest: Here's a swami, Swami Krishna-prema Idavatakar from Gorakhpur Vinodiya from Calcutta.
Indian lady: Swamiji, I made this for you.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. Very nice. He has come here? Let him come.
Interviewer: Yes. Do you think that this is because of the Western influence under which they have gone and you are...?
Prabhupāda: No, no, they wanted to compromise with the Westerners. They did not come to teach, but they wanted to be victimized by the Western people. They had no strength to save themselves. They have no strength. They have no determination. Hodgepodge, that's all. Therefore it was not successful. Not a single man became Kṛṣṇa conscious. Even nowadays. Now Vivekananda is famous in India that "He preached in America, all Americans have become Vedantists," something like that. Now, practically, you have gone in Vṛndāvana?
Interviewer: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Recently?
Interviewer: No, not recently.
Prabhupāda: You have seen our temple?
Interviewer: No, I have not.
Prabhupāda: So we have got our temple, that is considered the best temple in Vṛndāvana. You can show the pictures. So thousands and thousands of Americans went to Vṛndāvana for our temple and other temples. But there is another Vivekananda, Ramakrishna āśrama, nobody went there. Not a single. So what preaching they have done, from practical point of view? So many men went to our temple. They had no inquiry even that "We have heard that there is a Ramakrishna Mission Temple here. Where it is?" It is not..., Vṛndāvana is not a very big city. Everyone knows. Nobody, not a single person went there. And they visited other temples. So what kind of preaching, hmm? What do you think?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One rupee, twenty paisa. Of course, you get forty paisa back for the bottle, but it's between sixty-five and eighty paisa after you get your money back. When we were travelling in Bhopal, we traveled there in the months of May and June. It was very hot. We were drinking seven bottle a day, every hour. Every hour.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Lemonade.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gargamuni and I, we had to stop. We'd call it Limka. In India it is called Limka.
Bali-mardana: When Westerners go to India, it is so hot the water just comes out, you know, sweat, all the time. Become dehydrated.
Hari-śauri: Apart from that, you can't drink the water in India, so you have to drink Limka or something. It's safer to drink the lemonade than it is to drink the water.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (end)
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This one is not, it's not bad, but it's not so accurate. "In size it was dwarfed by 'Operation Sale.' In popular concern it was outweighed by the Democratic National Convention. But for hundreds of Hare Kṛṣṇa followers, including many Indian immigrants to New York, yesterday's Ratha-yātrā festival was by far the most important event in an eventful month. Pulling three brightly-colored chariots down Fifth Avenue from Central Park to Washington Square, the religious group's adherents were celebrating one of the oldest holy days of the Indian calendar, the feast of Jagannātha, the Lord of the Universe, according to Kṛṣṇa doctrine. Most of the participants in the parade were young Westerners, followers from as far away as Caracas and Montreal. But the crowd included hundreds of Indians who brought the basic Kṛṣṇa faith with them from Bombay and Calcutta."
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that nice. "Like many other immigrant groups who preserved their forms of worship once they came to America, the Indians who watched or participated in the parade were pleased to see that they could keep the faith even in New York City." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: These rascals, let them come, they become baḍa sāheb.
Bali-mardana: Become what?
Prabhupāda: Baḍa sāheb.
Hari-śauri: Baḍa sāheb, big Westerner.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "While Hare Kṛṣṇa propounds doctrines of world renunciation common to other varieties of the Hindu faith, the sect, officially known as the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, was founded in 1966 by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, whose fame as a guru came only after he arrived in the United States in the same year. For most of the Indians watching the parade, however, Hare Kṛṣṇa was close enough to their brand of Hinduism to make them feel at home."
Gurudāsa: That's good. It means that we're not a light cult. It means we have a great tradition.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, it's actually good.
Gurudāsa: They're recognizing that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: " 'It's surprising that you find this right in New York City. It's our way of life,' said Nagan Patel, a civil engineer from Jersey City, who immigrated from Bombay. 'We love New York City and America. It's the most beautiful place in the world. No other country will give such freedom for our own ceremony.' "
Prabhupāda: That's a fact, that I say always.
Prabhupāda: This is always, Western disease. It is a Western disease. Vairanga-roga (?). In the Ayur Veda it is called vairanga-roga. Fairanga, ferengi, ferengi, the Westerners are called ferengi, the vairanga-roga. So this syphilis disease was imported in India by these Europeans. Before, it was not there. There is a medicine called (indistinct) injection. Fifty years ago it was one rupee, four annas, price. But during the wartime the same medicine was selling at nineteen (ninety?). On black market.
Jñānagamya: That is their nature—they will always try to exploit.
Prabhupāda: Hm. I have seen it, one rupee, four annas, the price goes nineteen (ninety?).
Jñānagamya: There is a story about a man who made some perfect cloth that would never get dirty, never get torn. So he made a suit out of it and he was trying to market it. So he went to the capitalists and said, "Now I have made some perfect cloth." And they did not like it because they could not sell more cloth after they sold this. No one would want anything else. And the workers, they did not like it either because they would lose their jobs. No one would buy.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Jñānagamya: They tried to kill him.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: He's telling a story.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is giving. I never thought my books will be sold as much. I never... Neither in the history of human society religious books sell six lakhs of rupees daily.
Indian man: It has never happened.
Prabhupāda: And it is selling where? Where they are not Hindus.
Indian man: Yes, all Christian countries, so-called, Westernized countries.
Prabhupāda: In the country of Hindus it is selling very less in comparison to what we are selling daily.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's hard to talk (?). Vṛndāvana also is doing six, seven hundred rupees a day in book sales.
Prabhupāda: Still, six lakhs or six hundred. No, I say this is unique in the history. Now we have got... we are going to print, next our printing program... Bring it from Harikeśa. I am being surprised. Fifty thousand, one lakh, five hundred thousand each item.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And by force trying to give him meat. So now, if educated men of your country, they come forward, understand this philosophy, then combined effort... My philosophy is that American and Indian, American money and Indian culture, combine together; the whole world will be changed. That is my philosophy. It is coming to some extent... (break)
Jagadīśa: "...International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The two should cooperate. The blind man should carry his lame companion, and the lame man should give guidance to his blind friend. In this way both will benefit. Similarly, the wealthier Western countries should assist the materially exploited East, and the East, particularly India, should help the spiritually blind West to understand scientifically the actual higher purpose of human life. To offer India's transcendental science of Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the West, Prabhupāda sailed from Bombay to New York City in 1965. After a year of great personal struggle, he established the first center of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In the next few years he attracted hundreds of sincere disciples and opened centers in dozens of American and European cities. He also established gurukula schools and farming communities based on the ancient Indian patterns. In 1970 Prabhupāda returned to India and with the assistance of many Indian gentleman and some of his disciples, he established ISKCON centers in Bombay, Delhi, Calcutta, Madras, and the rural holy spots of Vṛndāvana, Lord Kṛṣṇa's place, and Māyāpur, West Bengal, the birth place of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Soon he attracted many Indian disciples as well, who opened centers in Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Chandigarh, and in several rural areas. Today ISKCON has about one hundred āśramas, gurukula schools, temples and farming communities around the world. But according to Prabhupāda, his books are his most important contribution. In the last ten years he has published over eighty volumes in sixteen languages. Scholars in India and abroad have praised Prabhupāda's books as classics, scholarly and authoritative. Literally crores of his literatures are sold annually, and this figure is almost doubling every year. How is it possible to sell so many books about Kṛṣṇa? Girirāja, president of the ISKCON center in Bombay, answers, 'People all over the world are looking to India for transcendental knowledge. They know that India's ancient Sanskrit literature speaks of lasting happiness beyond the frustration of material life. They are eager to buy our books because they know that we are presenting the genuine Vedic culture. In fact, many Westerners come here to discover the real India for themselves, (indistinct) life experience. For this reason we are building a model Vedic community at our Juhu center in Bombay, providing all the modern amenities for scholars, students, and sophisticated inquirers from abroad as well as from India who can study the original Indian culture and practice. The center will include a Vedic library, theater, prasādam restaurant, gurukula school, an international guesthouse, as well as a temple and āśrama.' ISKCON is also building a model Vedic community in Māyāpur near Calcutta based on cottage industry and agriculture. The important principle is that everyone must be gainfully employed. In ISKCON's Māyāpur project hundreds of persons operate spinning wheels and more than a dozen handlooms, dye the cloth, and (indistinct) popular design, process rice and dāl by hand, crush sugar cane for sugar products, and manufacture by hand, wooden shoes and other items of daily use. On twenty-five acres of agricultural land in Māyāpur, ISKCON is developing and demonstrating scientific farming procedures such as crop rotation, organic fertilization, and using improved strains. ISKCON is also cross-breeding cattle from Canada and Australia with Indian cows to increase milk production. Thus the community provides (indistinct) daily needs, acts as an agricultural development and demonstration center, and additionally feeds thousands of people twice every week. Within the next ten years, according to ISKCON's plans, the Māyāpur project will extend into a complete Vedic city with fifty thousand..."
Prabhupāda: We have applied for 350 acres of land from the government. The process is going on. If we get, then we shall spend crores of rupees for... The description is...
Prabhupāda: In Europe, America, the Indian students, they say, "Oh, we have seen all this Hare Kṛṣṇa. We now want technology."
Guest (1): Sir, I got into conversation this young man in Colombo for the simple reason that I have got five sons, and those sons are trying to be Westernized or Americanized to the extent that I couldn't believe that my own children would go to this extent. So I told Girirāja when he came to see me and introduced my children to them, and it has now little impact. Because now that...
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Don't sit down there. Don't sit down there. (Hindi) No, sitting on the...
Guest (1): You move it.
Prabhupāda: She is the daughter of jñānī.
Guest (3) (Indian man): They have come with me.
Prabhupāda: So why not ask him. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: But you have spoiled them. You have given this impression that "This 'religion, religion, religion' has spoiled our country. Now throw it, all these books, in the water." The leaders say that. "Take to technology." They come to me. They challenge, "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? Now we require technology." This is ignorance.
Guest (2): If Gītā is properly explained to a Westernized Indian, it gets accepted sooner than the difficult...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Indian Indian.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Guest (1): ...brāhmaṇas.
Guest (2): No, those are Westernized Indians.
Guest (1): Say, brāhmaṇas from abroad...
Prabhupāda: What is the time now?
Guest (1): Yes, sir, it's your time.
Guest (1): Eventually they will come around, but it will take time.
Prabhupāda: No, the leaders are not... Because their position will be finished, the so-called leaders. They want to keep in ignorance the mass of people so their foolish leadership may go on continually. That is everywhere. (break) ...learn this philosophy and preach. That is the best service.
Guest (2): My son who lives in America is very Westernized, and as he picked up Gītā, and he tried to understand it. Now he now is so much a follower of Gītā that every single letter he quotes Gītā to anyone whom he writes.
Prabhupāda: Which Gītā he has read?
Guest (2): He's very convinced about it.
Prabhupāda: No no, which Gītā he has read?
Guest (2): Your Gītā.
Prabhupāda: My Gītā?
Guest (2): Your Gītā and Cinmayananda's, two Gītās.
Prabhupāda: Cinmayananda is atheist. Atheist. He does not believe in Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): He has donated over three hundred books in that haṭha-yoga, that can...
Guest (1): Yes, in U.S.A., Santa Cruz.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he took some lakhs of rupees from Birla for distributing the Gītā. I know that.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Hari-śauri: There's one interesting statement in there from one of these men. He's lived in Vṛndāvana for about two years. And he says how when he first went to Vṛndāvana, all the people there, they would chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma, but it was kind of a derogatory thing because they had seen this film, Dum-mada-dam. So whenever they saw a Westerner they thought, "Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma," implying, "Oh, you're a hippie, you're a drug addict." Like that. But he said in the last two or three years since we established our temple, now that is completely changed. They're still saying, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Rāma," all the children shout it, but now they expect us to shout "Haribol" back and that it's a sign of, it's a friendly gesture now. So he's an outsider, but he's noticed the change in the Indian people's attitude, especially in Vṛndāvana.
Jagadīśa: He said, "Any Westerner they see in Vṛndāvana they say Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Rāma."
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Hari-śauri: Yeah, and he points out how the people, they generally ask when they see a Westerner, they ask, "Oh, when is darśana at your temple?" And he says that they're actually interested to come to our temple because the standard there is very much acceptable to them. They're attracted to come not because we're Westerners, but because they can see that our standard of worship is as good as or better than their own standards even.
Jagadīśa: There's one other letter from Guṇārṇava. (end)
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Is it possible to stop it? Or young men, if he says "No, no, I'm not going to..." but everyone wants that. Young man does not want to become old man, but by nature's law he has to become.
- prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
- guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
- ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
- kartāham iti manyate
- (BG 3.27)
So the idea is that after losing our own culture, we have become set of fools. This is the real conclusion. Mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). We have become so lowest of mankind and mūḍha and full of sinful activities that we cannot understand what Kṛṣṇa says. This is real position. I am not speaking—Kṛṣṇa says. This is the sign. If one does not hear Kṛṣṇa, then he must be grouped in these categories: duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. What is the value of their so-called education if they cannot understand the simple truth, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13)? What is the value of this education? Today I may be very big man, but I do not know that there is dehāntara. And what kind of deha I am going to get? Nobody has any knowledge, neither they're interested to cultivate. They have concluded that "After death, everything is finished." This is their education. Blind. Westerners, they say it frankly. That big, big professor, I have talked: "Swamiji, after death everything is finished." This is their conclusion. And our first education is that: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And they have given up everything. Kartāham iti manyate. (Hindi) If you do not know the science, simply by false prestige you say "No, whatever I am thinking, it is all right." Are you free? You are completely under the laws of material nature. Why you are thinking foolishly? This is Indian culture. Even in the village, remotest village, you go and they will say, (Hindi) pūrva-janme... (Hindi) They'll say. This is India's culture, pūrva-janma, paro-janma, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. And you have lost your sense. What kind of education? What is the value of this education? Very precarious condition.
Prabhupāda: If you arrange for prasāda distribution, you become very popular.
Rāmeśvara: None of the tourists who are Westerners ever takes Jagannātha prasādam, do they?
Prabhupāda: No, if there is good prasādam, they'll take.
Gargamuni: Tourists... We'll send in the sweet shops, but...
Prabhupāda: If they understand they are very palatable.
Gargamuni: But that beachfront, if we're on there, we can use that beach as a place to feed thousands of people.
Rāmeśvara: Of course, all the pilgrims that come to Purī for the temple festivals, they'll also come to our temple if it is very big.
Prabhupāda: Yes, naturally.
Gargamuni: They're building a city. You've never heard of it? It's big, worldwide... Auroville. Building a city of spiritual life.
Rāmeśvara: Where?
Hari-śauri: Yes. That's all over the world. Aurobindo. That's in South India on the coast, Pondicherry.
Rāmeśvara: Who goes there? Westerners?
Gargamuni: Oh, yes. That's all that's there now. But there's only about twenty of them.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Gargamuni: Yeah, very few. And they asked our men... Because people started to become attracted and asking and looking at our books, so the in-charge asked our men, "Please leave."
Prabhupāda: Acchā?
Gargamuni: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) You are dangerous. You are dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Does it mean that before that, the Europeans were uncivilized?
Rāmeśvara: They were, actually considered themselves to be in the Dark Ages. They call it the Dark Ages. And then, all of a sudden, there was what they call the Renaissance, where man's intelligence became greater, expanded. He became interested in finer things.
Prabhupāda: Not man, but the Westerners.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, Westerners.
Prabhupāda: Intelligent stock was there in India,
Rāmeśvara: Yes. So it's very amazing that the period in Europe called the Renaissance coincides with the appearance of Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupāda: Fifteenth century.
Rāmeśvara: Yes. So we're thinking that it must be because He came into this world, then everyone was blessed.
Prabhupāda: Pāpī tāpī jāta chilo, hari-nāme uddharilo. That is the beginning. And He enthused Indians, "Take this knowledge and distribute." Bhārata bhūmite haila manuṣya janma yāra (CC Adi 9.41). That is Kṛṣṇa Caitanya.
Prabhupāda: That is to keep their prestigious position.
Gargamuni: Many scholars... There's a place in Kashmir where they say his samādhi is there.
Rāmeśvara: There is a period of years which no one can account for.
Prabhupāda: No, even from Christian religion it is proved how uncivilized were the Westerners. "Thou shall not kill." Now, how uncivilized they were. Even they take it the human killing, it is meant, not animal killing. So what kind of society it is?
Hari-śauri: Don't kill human beings.
Rāmeśvara: Well, that's accepted, that it's very uncivilized in those times.
Prabhupāda: And the result was that Christ was killed first. Who advised not to kill, they were so civilized that "Kill him first." So this is the proof. Why he said, "Thou shall not kill"? That means the society was so ravaged that they're killing one another.
Prabhupāda: That Gopīnātha has done.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Another thing I see on account of the fast. One of the reasons perhaps... One of the advantages of fasting is that the swelling is... Fasting cures diseases.
Prabhupāda: Diet treatment is very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's a difficult treatment for the Westerners. Because they have no self-...
Prabhupāda: They want to be cured immediately. Go to the doctor. "Give me injection, give me tablet, cure me immediately." That is the Western treatment. Immediately stop it. Here also. A man, a worker, he's earning twenty rupees a day, and the doctors also take advantage of this rational. "You want to be treated quickly or let...?" And naturally he will say "Quickly." "Then you have to take injection." Injection means each injection at least five rupees. He may inject water.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They do that sometimes.
Prabhupāda: They do that. This is going on. They do actually, I know. Unnecessarily, little distilled water, and take from him five rupees. If he gives him mixture, he cannot charge from him. But these innocent persons, they have earned. "You want to be treated very quickly or slowly?" He says that "I am earning twenty rupees per day. If required, I will give you so much money. And give me quickly." Everything cheating and... I know. I was in the medical line. Dr. Bose admitted. He was talking with me very freely because I was just like his son. "My dear boy, I sometimes cheat. We are most sinful." He said like that. "As soon as we find some rich person, unnecessarily we harass."
Indian man: First, at the time of taking water even.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is the system in your society? Sweet first or last?
Indian man: In here also, they are given first sweet.
Ram Jethmalani: Yes, but now everything has become Westernized. We have dessert.
Prabhupāda: In northern India first of all they give sweets. So they eat sweet to the heart's content. Then to counteract the sweetness...
Ram Jethmalani: The best way to destroy your appetite is to eat sweet first.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughs)
Indian man: They eat last to digest.
Ram Jethmalani: The sugar produces energy to digest your food.
Girirāja: No, no, I will take. (taking prasādam)
Prabhupāda: So I am very glad that you have taken the prasādam. I am pleased. Therefore I wanted that you eat before me. It is a great pleasure.
Indian Astronomer: ...whether Western accepts or not, that is not worthwhile.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian Astronomer: Whether Westerners or modern scientists accept or not, that is not worthwhile.
Prabhupāda: No, we want do it according to Bhāgavatam.
Indian Astronomer: That is what I mean.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So when you'll do it?
Indian Astronomer: When the order is, I will start.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian Astronomer: On your order, holy order, I will start on work immediately.
Prabhupāda: No, my order... It is for this purpose I sent him, so you can begin immediately or...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Surabhī has an office with all things ready, drawing board...
Prabhupāda: You can go to his office, can give him instruction how the planetary system is hanging. The polestar, dhruva-tārā, is the center, and it is moving. That at night you can see. It is moving.
Prabhupāda: Indians, intelligent... (Hindi) Indians... So, but they have sacrificed everything for..., to imitate the Westerners. But Indian (Hindi) knowledge... But we have locked it. Our knowledge, we have locked it, and we are trying to imitate.
Shri Narayan: Yes, true, imitation is not good at all. We must keep our originality and ancient...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Vedic culture (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Within ten years I have already written eighty-four books.
Shri Narayan: Eighty-four books. (rest of conversation in Hindi, with few interspersed English words, until Shri Narayan and his associates leave)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody's appreciating this view. All the ladies were standing on the balcony.
Prabhupāda: So immediately contact Jayadal and Dalmia, and he has got a nice house. We go to Hrishikesh immediately. It is very nice. Or Patel.
Prabhupāda: So without this faith, nobody can achieve the association of Kṛṣṇa. There are two things. You become associate of Kṛṣṇa, or you become associate of this material world. So if you do not become associate of Kṛṣṇa, then the next step is this association of material world. And association of material world means accepting one type of body and enjoy or suffer for some time; then you get another body. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani (BG 9.3). Now we have to make our choice, whether you want to stop this material way of life and attain the eternal spiritual life...
- mām upetya punar janma
- duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam
- nāpnuvanti mahātmānaḥ
- saṁsiddhiṁ paramāṁ gatāḥ
- (BG 8.15)
If you get the association of Kṛṣṇa, then you haven't got to come here, this material world. Duḥkhālayam. Kṛṣṇa says it is duḥkhālayam. Either you take birth in a very rich, aristocratic family, born in the upper planetary system as demigods-Brahmā, Indra, Candra, like that—or you take your birth, an insignificant ant; wherever you are in material body, it is duḥkhālayam. That you cannot avoid. Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). And you cannot make any compromise that "Never mind it is very much miserable. I shall enjoy." So that also will not be allowed. Aśāśvatam. Your tendency is to live forever. So that will not be allowed. Aśāśvata. So this requires knowledge, intelligence, that "If I am eternal," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20), "I am not destroyed even this body is destroyed," then you should seek after eternal happiness. Why temporary? That is not in your interest. That happiness is there when you go back to Kṛṣṇa; otherwise not. These are the statement in the Bhagavad-gītā. So if we do not try to understand the real purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, and if we theorize, "Bhagavad-gītā means nonviolence. Bhagavad-gītā means to become patriot," these are materialism. We should avoid this wrong interpretation, misguiding direction of blind leaders. We'll not get any benefit out of it. So we are trying to rectify this. That's all. Everything is there. Any question is solved by Kṛṣṇa. Politics, economics, religion, culture, philosophy—everything is discussed very thoroughly. Simply one has to understand. Then he becomes fixed up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. People are generally after yoga, especially the Westerners. I think they have come here for perfection of yoga. But here it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That is first class, to increase your attachment for Kṛṣṇa. Mayy āsakta-manāḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan. This is yoga, how to increase the attachment for Kṛṣṇa. This is called bhakti-yoga. So this yoga can be practiced-mayy āsakta-manāḥ pār..., yogam, mad-āśrayaḥ, not anyone's other's āśraya. Mad-āśrayaḥ. Taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa or taking shelter of Kṛṣṇa's personal person, personal associates, mat-para. Mat-para means one who has dedicated his life for Kṛṣṇa. He is called mat-para. Or directly under Kṛṣṇa. Directly under Kṛṣṇa is difficult. Because we do not understand Kṛṣṇa, therefore we have to take shelter of a person who is already under the shelter of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Oh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, every night it's packed solid. And all high-class people. There's no low-class people there. And they all listen very attentively. And he's lecturing. He gives lecture seven nights a week. Then there's ārati, and the people flock. Even more people come for the ārati, because they love to see the Westerners jumping up and down, and they love to see the ārati. Both things are big attraction. And then there's an English lecture. Then people leave by then, because by then it's 7:45. Everyone has to go home. So the devotees are there for English class, Bhagavad-gītā class. This temple has a tremendous life already. It's really very successful. I was wondering that isn't there some kind of system where we can give everyone who comes some prasādam?
Prabhupāda: I introduced that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are doing. They give for free.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the thing is, you know... I feel like some people, they... Oh, yeah. They sell and they give. Selling is in a nice cup. You can buy mahā-prasādam. And beyond that, they also give to anyone who wants.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I guess it's going on. They do that at one time in the evening. See, they don't do it...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is all right. Little prasāda from our side should be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Special feature of our temple, you'll see, younger generation, boys and girls from respectable families, they are coming. Did you mark this?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I did. I've seen generally throughout India that respectable younger people are attracted. They may not join fully, but they're attracted to our movement. One of the things that attracts them is the fact that there are Westerners who are sincere here, 'cause they want to imitate the West, and yet here are Westerners who are devotees. And they are amazed. They like that feature, that there are not only... There are both a mixture of Indians and Westerners. They like that. They feel that it is very..., that the Westerners must have come out of some, you know, intelligence.
Prabhupāda: And they are hearing the philosophy also. In the evening class they come.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, yes. Bhavānanda always has young people coming to Māyāpur. Intelligent, well-educated, wealthy people's children come. He yells at them like anything. He tells them that "Why are you imitating the West when you have the greatest culture?" Bhavānanda Mahārāja yells at them, chastises them. They like it. Naturally they like it because he's praising their culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is a fact. And the books are selling very nice, hm, Bengali?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. Now there's about seven or eight parties traveling around India, simply doing book distribution.
Prabhupāda: That is our aim.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Such a good certificate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Satsvarūpa, American-born personal secretary to Swami Bhaktivedanta, presents the official Hare Kṛṣṇa approach." They don't even identify you. They know who you are. You are so well known in these literary circles now that someone says, "Swami Bhaktivedanta." They don't have to say "Founder of ISKCON." They know already from your other books. "...presents the official Hare Kṛṣṇa approach in an articulate and highly serviceable introduction to this immense body of literature. The readings include the Īśopaniṣad, the Bhagavad-gītā and excerpts from Purāṇas, supplemented with a glossary and index. Preliminary essays detail the logic by which his group rejects both the academic experts and the rival approach of advaita-vedānta that Westerners know through the writings of Vivekananda and Radhakrishnan. This is a book long needed to balance out the monist theology that is but one aspect of Indian religious thought." In other words, this is one of the first books to present the Vaiṣṇava viewpoint, not simply the Māyāvādī viewpoint. He says, "It's well needed." That's all he's written.
Prabhupāda: Very appreciated. Very much appreciate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yesterday... Last night some of the scientists were asking how our Gurukula boys here studying Sanskrit. Some of them were telling that they have given up to study Sanskrit because they want to study the English. So how the change of views. The Westerners are trying to learn Sanskrit, and they're saying that they are giving up. So he had a strange feeling how these things are happening. Then I told him that Śrīla Prabhupāda sometimes commented that in the future we are importing brāhmaṇas from the West so that we can learn even the brahminical culture from the Western world. So he was telling me that that is now becoming a fact, how the Western devotees are taking so seriously in trying to spread the message of Kṛṣṇa consciousness all over the world. (break)
Bhāgavata: ...were all banging on the drums and the karatālas. They started going, "Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hari bol!" very loud, tumultuous sound. All the devotees were very happy. That sound shall go everywhere in the world. Everywhere the devotees... (break)
Jayādvaita: I'm bewildered again. Kṛṣṇa's again doing something impossible.
Prabhupāda: Possible or impossible (break) It is not very...
Upendra: Prabhupāda wants to know why... Hari-śauri's here. Wanted to know why the urine is not as bad as it was. What action was taken to make it not bad?
Hari-śauri: You're not drinking that orange juice. I was told by Parivrājakācārya... He seems to know something about juices and things like that, and he said that orange juice is much too powerful. It kind of scourges the kidneys. It scours them out.
Prabhupāda: So what I am drinking now?
Hari-śauri: This sweet lime juice.
Prabhupāda: Hm!
Bhavānanda: ...in Śrī Raṅganātha temple for five days he was their host.
Prabhupāda: Where? Śrī Raṅgam.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the man must be very... He's not so smārta. Because he will allow Westerners to live with him, he's favorable. So Smara-hari, one of the devotees here... We felt that if we do not find from Jalan or anyone a good kavirāja in Calcutta, then let us send two devotees to Śrī Raṅgam to meet with this head pūjārī and get his help for finding out a proper Rāmānuja kavirāja and bring him to Māyāpur. And immediately let us go to Māyāpur. Why should we sit here waiting here? Because actually we don't find any benefit from waiting here. The idea was to give change of climate, and what is the purpose of waiting for that to happen? Because we're not gaining anything by staying here except that the weather is becoming colder, so it becomes more and more dangerous to travel in cold weather. And as far as bringing a kavirāja goes, now we've already seen there's not going to be one in Vṛndāvana, so at best, we'd have to bring him from Delhi. But whether a man has to come from Delhi or come from Śrī Raṅgam, he's going to have to come and visit and stay with us. And once the treatment begins, if we get a Delhi kavirāja, he's going to have to keep coming down here. We don't want to have to stay here for more than one or two weeks. But the treatment is going to be longer than two weeks. So then we'll be stuck here. If we depend upon a Delhi kavirāja we'll be stuck here. Best thing is someone from Calcutta, because then they can come frequently to Māyāpur. But in the event that we cannot get someone from Calcutta, then we should take the help of one kavirāja from South India. And your dream was that it was a Rāmānuja kavirāja who was preparing the medicine. I think that after it's prepared he may administer the medicine for some time, but afterwards we can find another kavirāja. If he has to return to South, then another kavirāja may continue the treatment.
Prabhupāda: There is no treatment.
Prabhupāda: No idea of... He has no authorized.
Brahmānanda: One thing they recognize is that the young people of India, they want to see the experience of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Arjuna in the beginning was bewildered and in the end he agreed. So that experience... I said, "Yes, and we have had the same experience, because as Westerners, in the beginning we didn't even the know the name Kṛṣṇa, and now we are serving Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day. So obviously there was some great experience. So that has been given to us by Śrīla Prabhupāda." And then he recognized, "Yes." I said, "So we are... We can actually give our experience." So then he suggested that some publication be made actually dealing with the experiences.
Prabhupāda: That we are giving. This Bhāgavata discourse...
Brahmānanda: I think now that our books are coming out in the Indian languages and are being distributed, I think this will cause young Indians...
Prabhupāda: Young Indians are not... They have already published these things. Scientific investigation of matter.
Correspondence
1947 to 1965 Correspondence
In India, even after the attainment of Swaraj, the mentality is predominant by "Made in London" ideas. It is a long story. But in nutshell the Leaders of India in the name of secular Government they have engaged themselves in everything foreign. They have carefully set aside the treasure house of India's spiritual asset and they are imitating the westernised material way of life constantly engaged in the acts of error of judgement, misgivings, imperfectness and duplicity.
If the aim of spiritual realization is missed, the whole plan of materialism is sure to be frustrated and that is the law of Nature. The law of nature is so made by a superior authority and no body can surpass the intricacies of material nature simply by partial adjustment of material science. The history of the West beginning from the time of the Greeks and the Romans down to the modern age of atomic war—is a continuous chain of sense gratificatory materialism and the result is that the westerners were never in peace within the memory of 3000 years of historical records. Neither it will be possible for them at any time in future to live in peace till the message of spiritualism just suitable to the present age does not reach their heart.
1966 Correspondence
I am so glad to hear that you are now married. I pray Krishna that you may live henceforward happily as a householder, without thinking of a separation from your wife. According to Vedic wisdom, a good wife is a great assistant for material and spiritual prosperity. Even if there is some deficiency, you should try to correct it without thinking in the Westernized way. I hope your wife may be taking interest in your chanting Sankirtana and reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. As she has become your life's companion, it is your duty to induce her, peacefully, in the matter of spiritual advancement of life.
1967 Correspondence
I thank you very much for your letter dated June 20, 1967. As stated by you, my missionary work is really a great challenge to the western way of life. But Krishna is so attractive that He is accepted even by the Westerners when the consciousness is presented in the right disciplic succession. The challenge is to the maya, or in other words it is a fight with the maya, and I may inform you that the maya has given me a great stroke very recently. Due to my incessant hard work for the last two years, my health has been shattered. On the 25th May I had a heavy stroke between the heart and stomach. The boys here took all cares possible, and I am getting well day by day. At present I am on the seashore in New Jersey for recouping my health, but I am thinking of going back to India as soon as I get sufficient strength. I am now considerably old; I will be 72 years next September. But the work which I have begun in the western world is not yet finished, and I require to train some of the American boys to preach this cult all over the western world.
1968 Correspondence
Krishna Consciousness movement is the need for the Western countries at this time. The Westerners have sufficiently enjoyed their material achievements and they are now, especially the younger generation, seeking for something spiritual. That is quite natural. In the Vedanta Sutra, it is stated as "Atha Atho Brahma Jijnasa." When a person finishes his material activities, naturally, he becomes interested to search after spiritual realization. That is natural consequence. A living entity is factually a spirit soul whose eternal position is knowledge and blissfulness. Material knowledge, however advanced it may be, cannot award blissfulness, which is the demand of the spirit soul.
In the concluding part of your letter, you write to say, "All of the westerners here in Hrsikesa show keen interest in Krishna Consciousness and some even attended large Kirtana at Gita Bhawan with us." From this one line you should know and understand how much potency is there for preaching our philosophy of Krishna Consciousness to the western people. The western boys and girls, actually they are frustrated in their material opulence. They are searching after something spiritual. That is a fact. And you personally already know better than I can explain. So if you can consolidate all these western youngsters in search after some spiritual enlightenment, this will be a great service to your country, to your community, and to the world at large in the transcendental loving service of Krishna. Try to organize this movement in India.
So there you will have better chance for mixing with the Indian people. And in Hrsikesa, the westerners are attracted for finding out some recluse, for practicing so-called yoga. So if you can attract all the westerners in India in that way, it will be a great service, and I am repeatedly requesting you to take up this matter seriously and combine together.
Yes, we are planning to go to London as a Sankirtana party of 12 heads, by the month of September. And Mukunda in San Francisco and Hamsaduta in New York, they are combinedly planning this scheme. But I think you have got better responsibility in India than to come here and join them. As they are doing the Sankirtana program here nicely, similarly, you can also combinedly do the same work in India to attract the westerners who go there for some spiritual enlightenment. I think you will understand me right and try to do your best to give a shape to this idea.
1970 Correspondence
Regarding the presentation of "Govindam" as well as other mantras, the vibration is always pure. I will give the theme and if the sound is Westernized that does not matter. But another point is that this specific sound of Kirtana as I sing is also another introduction of art that can be intermingled with Western art, and such combination will certainly be appreciated. But so far I know that the Kirtana tune is a specific representation of Gaudiya Vaisnavas and this tune is appreciated all over India as unique. They say that the Kirtana tune is the specific gift of Bengal, and that is a fact. So why not utilize this tune in the Western countries under the able guidance of such expert musician as George?
1973 Correspondence
Regarding Puranjana's going to Vietnam, I think all of the Americans and other Westerners, soldiers, have left that place and now there are only American bombers flying there to drop bombs and go away. So what is the use for one man to go and try for preaching to people of Vietnam? If there is some scope for preaching there, that is a different matter, I shall be very happy to open our ISKCON center there. But I was thinking before that many American soldiers were there, therefore I suggested. So you consider these things carefully, and we shall discuss further when you come here.
1975 Correspondence
I have just been informed by my servant, Srutakirti, that the young children, under twelve, are not allowed to use their japa beads while chanting. This policy is not good. Why this change has been made? I never said they should not use their beads. That is our business. They must be taught how to respect their beads. How they can learn unless they use them? That is the trouble with you westerners, always changing. No changes should be made without first consulting with my GBC representative. So, the children should immediately be allowed to chant on their japa beads.
You make one book containing my conversations with Prof. Kotovsky and also the one with Syamasundara, and translate it into Russian and distribute in Russia.
My special mission is for the Western countries. Whatever success I have got, it is because the Westerners have cooperated.
But one thing is disturbing me, are these reports coming from Sweden. These books are translated by Vegavan and Ajita, so they are rendering good service to you. Do not deal with them by force. They are competent hands, so why fight with them? Do everything amicably. This fighting is going on everywhere. It is not a good sign. I know the fight spirit is there in you, within the Westerners, that even if you do not care to fight, someone will induce you to fight. Rather, you should make vigorous propaganda for making people understand the utility of the Krsna consciousness philosophy. It is not something speculative. Make your plans, organize, and then execute in order to increase all of our Krsna consciousness programs. This will be better.
Regarding Spain, yes, don't risk anything. You've got sufficient engagement in the other European cities. Do everything slow but sure. The new French Back to Godhead is very nice. Amsterdam temple has also grown to 55 devotees. This is a credit, not that the temple should be a place simply for good residence. It should be a place where there is constant activity in Krsna's service. The Westerners have good brains, but they do not have any good leader. Now the Krsna consciousness movement will provide them with good leader if they take it seriously. Regarding the contract with the incense manufacturer, don't supply them if they do not pay. That is very good to separate the Spiritual Sky business from the temple.
1976 Correspondence
So we want to introduce this system of education for the boys who are at the kaumara age. That is recommended by Prahlada Maharaja, kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha (SB 7.6.1). So this is the practical application in life of the education mentioned in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. I am also practically finding that if any of our students artificially try to become scholars by associating with unwanted persons they become victimized, for a little learning is dangerous, especially for the Westerners. I am practically seeing that as soon as they begin to learn a little sanskrit immediately they feel that they have become more than their guru and then the policy is kill guru and be killed himself.
1977 Correspondence
Regarding your situation, it is nothing new for Westerners. This is a family matter. It is better to consult Bali Mardan how to manage your personal affairs. He is a grhastha, so you can speak with him. You are an intelligent boy, so do not misuse your intelligence.
| Page Title: | Westerner |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 17 of Mar, 2012 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=1, SB=5, CC=2, OB=2, Lec=21, Con=82, Let=15 |
| No. of Quotes: | 128 |