Varnasrama (Conv. 1970 - 1975)

Conversations and Morning Walks

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Interviewer: Do you have a name that you call... are they called students? Like, would he be called a student or a...?

Devotee: Brahmacārī.

Prabhupāda: Brahmacārī. We have got four divisions. Those who are not married, they are called brahmacārīs. And those who are married, they are called gṛhasthas. And those who are retired, they are called vānaprasthas. And those who are renounced, they have no connection with anything worldly, they are called sannyāsa. Just like I am a sannyāsī. Sannyāsī mean I have got my family, I have got my wife, children, grandchildren in India, but I have no connection with them. I live alone.

Interview -- February 1, 1968, Los Angeles:

Interviewer: Could I ask for a spelling on those?

Prabhupāda: Sannyā... Yes, brahmacārī: b-r-a-h-m-a-c-h-a-r-y, this is brahmacārī. Then gṛhastha: g-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. H-a-s-t-h-a, gṛhastha. G-r-i-h-a-s-t-h-a. Is that clear? Gṛhastha. Then vānaprastha: v-a-n-a-p-r-a-s-t-h-a, vānaprastha. Then sannyāsī: s-n-n-y-a-s-i, sannyāsī. Four divisions. These four divisions, and there are other four orders of social system. That is according to work, division according to work and quality. Just like the brāhmaṇas, b-r-a-h-m-a-i-n-s, brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of the society. The kṣatriyas, k-s-h-a-t-r-y-a-s, kṣatriyas. Kṣatriyas means persons who are interested in politics, in the management of the country, political affairs. They are called kṣatriyas. Similarly, there is the vaiśyas, v-a-i-s-y-a-s. Vaiśyas means the mercantile, productive class. Those who are engaged in producing grains or trade, milk, and in industry.

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Interviewer: No, about the way your clothes, the way you're dressed today. Uh, the robes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, the robe? Yes, I am a sannyāsī. The sannyāsī is the highest status of human social division. According to Vedic culture there are four divisions of human society. Brahmacārī, student life; then householder, gṛhastha; and then vānaprastha, retired life; and then sannyāsa life, means preaching transcendental knowledge to the society from door to door.

Radio Interview -- March 12, 1968, San Francisco:

Interviewer: Certainly not. All right, now when you...

Prabhupāda: Well, actually sex life is allowed only to the householders. According to Vedic culture, sex life is restricted. There are four divisions of society. The brahmacārī is strictly forbidden for sex life. The vānaprastha, they are also forbidden for sex life, and the sannyāsī, they are also forbidden for sex life. So out of four divisions, three divisions are strictly forbidden for sex life. Only the householders they can have restricted sex life with married wife simply for begetting children. That is the Vedic culture.

Morning Walk at Stow Lake -- March 27, 1968, San Francisco:

Prabhupāda: Everyone may act in his own duty. It doesn't matter what kind of duty he has got. But he has to see whether by execution of that duty Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Then he's successful. That is the version in the Srimad-Bhāgavatam:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya, everyone has got a specific duty. So one has to see that by his specific duty, entrusted with or discharging that duty, whether Kṛṣṇa is being satisfied. That's all. Therefore one has to accept a bona fide spiritual master to know whether Kṛṣṇa is being satisfied by his work. Who will certify? You cannot concoct, "Oh, I am doing for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa." No, that is not possible. It must be accepted by the representative of Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, by your work, Kṛṣṇa is satisfied." Then it is all right.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Devotee: I didn't get any new members today. I went all over... I went over to McGill, and not very many teachers, professors there know about the temple, especially the chemistry professors. I don't think chemistry professors go too well with Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No. Every... You have to convince them that chemistry or philosophy or anything, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is all useless. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate param. That verse I was explaining, that

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

(SB 1.2.13)

Test for... (pause) Oh, so many?

Govinda dasi: Earlier you said you wanted it.

Prabhupāda: Huh? So he is recording there?

Govinda dasi: Oh, I thought you wanted a dictaphone? If not, I can...

Devotee: It must be better if you recorded it, something I...

Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm? What is that?

Devotee: I think a tape recorder is better than a dictaphone because I think a tape recording is better.

Prabhupāda: Tape recording is going on?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: So success of life is to please Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, by one's occupational duty. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitena dharmena. Svanuṣṭhitena dharmena saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). One should try to satisfy the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead. And Lord Caitanya also recommends that "You remain in your occupation. That doesn't matter. But you submissively try to hear." So we are giving this chance to the people "Please come and hear." But they are not prepared even for that thing. The age is so strong, the Kali-yuga, that it will dictate. Māyā will dictate, "Why you go there? What is there?" But actually, those who have come to us, those who are following, they are so much changed. That is a fact.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four divisions of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Guest: He has ordered for duty, "You must do whatever you are doing."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a kṣatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Varṇa and āśrama. There are different kinds of duties. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13).

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: These Mohammedans, they pronounce "S" as "H." "Hindus," "Hindus." Instead of "Sindus," they made it "Hindus." So Hindu is a term which is not found in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.

Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: But you know what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this varṇāśrama system...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky:...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... (break)...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information.

Prabhupāda: But so far... So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.

Prof. Kotovsky: According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance, in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers?

Prabhupāda: Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men.

Prof. Kotovsky: Intelligent, yes, so...

Prabhupāda: So this is a division.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, intelligent class, for instance, brāhmaṇas, if you can put together also with intelligentsia under the brāhmaṇas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.

Prof. Kotovsky: Generally it seems to me that this old varṇāśrama system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very...

Prabhupāda: Not complicated.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because...

Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa. Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere brāhmaṇas, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a brāhmaṇa.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: And this, the actual Hindu law which was used by Hindus, they're quite different from original Manu-smṛti.

Prabhupāda: No, they have now made changes. Just like our late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. He made some Hindu code. He introduced in that Hindu code the right of divorcing husband and wife. But these were not in Manu-saṁhitā. And, of course, they are changing. If you like, you can change. But the social order also not exactly the same as it was before.

Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: And so many things. So they're changing. But before this modern age the whole Hindu society was being governed by Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti, yeah.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali?

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Maybe your Hinduism. You lick up your Hinduism. But we are creating real brāhmaṇa all over the world.

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Kṛṣṇa has stated, sir, that "I have created these four castes of āśrama..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Page Title:	Varnasrama (Conv. 1970 - 1975)
Compiler:	Visnu Murti
Created:	02 of Oct, 2010
Totals by Section:	BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=165, Let=0
No. of Quotes:	165