In this material world, the more you'll work, you'll feel tired. And the spiritual world, the more you work, you'll feel enthused. That is called anandāmbudhi-vardhanam. That is the test. If our workers are feeling tired, then that means he's working materially. And if he's feeling enthused, more and more, that is his, he's working spiritually. Ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam. That is the spiritual test. Rāmante yoginaḥ anante satyānande cid-ātmani (CC Madhya 9.29). That is cid-ātmani, that is spiritual, not material. So here, we are trying to enjoy material. So how we can be happy? That is not possible. Materially we cannot be happy, therefore Bhagavad-gītā gives us indication, sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriya grāhyam (BG 6.21). If you want happiness, happiness is our prerogative. Every individual soul, happiness. Because Kṛṣṇa is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, eternal, blissful, ānanda. Ānanda, blissful. Cit, knowledge and sat, eternal. That is Kṛṣṇa. Sat-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ.
Individual souls (Lectures, Other)
Lectures
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
They know that God is friend of all living entities. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29). Actually, He is the friend. As friend, He is living with the soul as Supersoul. That is stated in the Vedas, that two birds are sitting on the same tree. The tree, this is the tree. This body is tree, and one bird is the individual soul, and the other bird is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Supersoul. So God is always accompanying the individual soul to turn him back to home, back to Godhead. He is so nice friend. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. So if we want peace, then we should understand that "Here is my friend, the supreme friend." Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "He is guiding me. So why I am praying to Him for some benefit? He knows my necessities. He will supply if it is required. Why shall I bother Him with prayers granting something, 'Please give me this, give me this'?" There is no necessity.
Just like when there is some pain and pleasure, you know. Therefore you are kṣetrajña; we are all kṣetrajña. And Kṛṣṇa says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. And that is Paramātmā. When Kṛṣṇa says, "I am also kṣetrajña..." Not this kṣetrajña. Sometimes they misunderstand that the individual soul, living entity, and Paramātmā is the same. No. He says, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi: "I am also one of the birds sitting on this body." That is confirmed in the Upaniṣad. Two birds are sitting in one tree. So one bird is witnessing. The witnessing bird is the Paramātmā, antaryāmī. He is looking after all your activities, witness. Anumantā upadraṣṭā. Bhagavad-gītā: upadraṣṭā. You don't think that whatever you are doing, nobody is witnessing. Sarvato pani-padas tat sarvato akṣi.
Prabhupāda: There are two kṣetrajñas: one kṣetrajña, the individual soul, and the other kṣetrajña is Bhagavān. There are two kṣetrajñas. Dvaitavāda.
Guest (5): Yes. Then this monism and dualism, then what about the Viśiṣṭa-advaita?
Prabhupāda: No, no. We are talking of Bhagavad-gītā. Why you are bringing so many things? First of all try to understand the simple thing in the Bhagavad-gītā. Then bring big, big words. Yes, there are two kṣetrajñas. You have to accept it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): ...and the individual soul.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (3): And also He has said that Paramātmā, He is Puruṣottama, greater than the soul. The soul is also...
Prabhupāda: Puruṣa. Soul is described as puruṣa.
Guest (3): Greater than him. So that also establishes that...
Prabhupāda: Dvaitavāda.
Now, this localized aspect, Paramātmā, in individual soul, living, He's called Paramātmā. So that Paramātmā, Supersoul, is also a part representation. The, the body of Kṛṣṇa is sac-cid-ānanda vigraha (Bs. 5.1). Sac, cid, ānanda—three, three spiritual divisions. Not division actually. They are one. But for our understanding we analyze in that way, sac, cid, ānanda. Sat. Sat means eternity. So Brahman realization, impersonal Brahman realization, is realization of eternity; Paramātmā realization means eternity and knowledge; and Bhagavān realization means full realization: eternity, knowledge and bliss. Simple eternal realization is without factual knowledge and without bliss—impersonal.
When Kṛṣṇa was present in person, many persons studied Him in a different way, but one of them, who is pure devotee, he is describing about Kṛṣṇa that enam, "This Kṛṣṇa, this Kṛṣṇa," kṛṣṇam enam avehi, "you should try to understand." What is that? Tvam ātmānam akhilātmanām. Ātmānam akhilātmanām. Ātmā means the self, or soul. So we individual souls, we are part and parcel, fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is to be understood as the source of all individual selves. Akhilātmā. Akhila means all. Then jagad-dhitāya: "Now, He has come, He has descended out of His causeless mercy," jagad-dhitāya, "for the benefit of this world, this planet." Dehīva ābhāti. Just like He appears ordinary person. Ābhāti māyayā. Māyā. This māyā is not illusion. This māyā means by His internal potency. By His internal potency, He can appear just like us, but He's not like us. He's the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Svayaṁ-rūpa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, He is called svayaṁ-rūpa, His personal feature. Then tad-ekātmā. Tad-ekātma-rūpa means not exactly the same person, but almost the same. Tad-ekātma-rūpa. And āveśa. Āveśa means that empowered. There is always difference between the individual soul and the Supreme Absolute Soul. When the individual soul is specially empowered by the Supreme Soul, that is called āveśa. He can act almost like God. We accept, according to this āveśa, āveśa-avatāra incarnation, authorized incarnation, we accept, my Guru Mahārāja accepted Lord Jesus Christ and Hazrat Muhammad, this āveśa incarnation, almost the same power.
Kṛṣṇa is so kind that this person, this particular man, is wanting something, "All right, give him. Give him." Kṛṣṇa is... This is freedom. There is no argument, "Oh, why Kṛṣṇa has arranged like this?" He arranges out of His causeless mercy. He can say, He can stop asking the individual soul. But He does not do that. Why He shall do? Then there is no meaning of independence. "All right, you want it? I have arranged it. Take it. Take." So He asks the demigod, "All right, he's asking from you? Give him. Give." So this is going on.
Once. This form which you have got, material form, it is just like a bubble in the ocean. It is formed somehow or other according to our past actions and reactions, and it will stay for hundred years at most. Then it will disappear. And there will be no trace where that particular individual soul has gone. Of course, there is account in the books of Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). He says, "I know everything." And He's always constant companion. As Supersoul of the individual soul, He knows. But we, the persons of a particular person's relatives, father, mother, brother, all these things—who knows? Nobody can give information. But Kṛṣṇa's appearance and disappearance is not like that, because He's not different from His body. We are, in our conditioned stage, we are different from our body.
They have no intelligence to see that within the ocean there is individual expansion, individual life, and they are enjoying. Similarly, in the spiritual sky there is individuality. That individuality is there. And that individuality is reciprocated between Kṛṣṇa and the individual souls. They are called nitya-mukta, eternally liberated. And the other class, who are just like in the river fishes, they are called nitya-baddha. Their, I mean to say, limited sphere in the river or in the pond or in the well... The frog philosophy. They are expanding themselves, frogs: "How much great is Atlantic Ocean?" So they are called conditioned soul. Those who are in this material world, although they are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord energy, but because they are conditioned in this material contamination, they are called, I mean to say, conditioned, conditioned by the laws of nature.
And other processes, they're also admitted, but they are dependent on this process. That means if by karma-yoga, when you acquire knowledge, then that is another step forward. Then by jñāna-yoga, when you are able to meditate, by jñāna-yoga you can understand the Supersoul and your soul. And when you understand also that by the individual soul the Supersoul has to be seen by meditation or focus, that is called dhyāna-yoga. Then when you understand Supersoul, then go further. You can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anyway, all these processes... Yoga means just like a staircase.
Therefore they are entangled. That is the real fact. And as such, we find from the Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord asked that sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: (BG 18.66) "Just surrender." So therefore, unless there is surrender of the individual soul to the Supreme, there is no question of liberation. There is no question of liberation. You can cultivate knowledge that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," but that will not help for your liberation. Because real thing is that you have or we have rebelled against the supremacy of the Supreme Lord. That is the attitude, everywhere we can see actually. Everyone is: "Oh, what is God? What is God?" especially in this age. So this impersonalism is another type of atheism, and this impersonal theory of the Absolute Truth has converted practically the major portion of the world into atheism.
"This is not matter, this is not spirit, this is not...," like that, and that there is no separate Supersoul, only one soul is there, and this conception of individual soul is misunderstanding, ignorance—in this way, there are volumes of books of, by Śaṅkarācārya especially, and later on, his disciples. They are very, very learned scholars, undoubtedly. By their scholastic jugglery they want to cover the Supreme Personality of God. They do not want to cover; they think that they are advanced. But Kṛṣṇa covers Himself so that they may not understand Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa does not want. Kṛṣṇa wants that one should surrender and take to devotional service. So Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā that nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ: (BG 7.25) "I do not reveal Myself to everyone, one and all. No. I cover Myself."
Festival Lectures
That is the way of thinking of modern scientists also, that this body is a combination of matter. Under Darwin's theory also, like that, "organic matter, inorganic matter." They are studying evolution of this matter, organic matter. But actually that is not the fact. The fact is that use, individual soul, that is the real fact. And that individual soul is the seed, and upon that seed, this body has developed. According to our Vedic understanding, the body develops on the seed. This is very practical. Why we have got different bodies, different types of bodies? Because the condition of the seed is different. The seed is the spirit soul, and by material contact it is covered by finer body, intelligence, mind, and ego. And according to the quality of that ego, we develop different kinds of this material gross body. Therefore somebody has developed the body in the modes of goodness, because material nature is divided into three qualities: goodness, passion, and ignorance.
Initiation Lectures
So on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, we are trying to distribute this knowledge at least in this part of the world. Now, those who are fortunate, they will take it and be benefited. Our business is to distribute. Now it is up to you. Every individual soul is independent. He may accept or may not accept. That depends on him. But if he accepts, it is good for him. Otherwise, he may make his choice. Kṛṣṇa never..., God never interferes with your independence. No. He will never do that. Then what is the meaning of living being? Dull matter, it has no independence. Even it is a big mountain or big thing, it has no independence. It will stand still. But a small ant, even a microbe, it has got independence because it is living creature. So God has made you or given you little independence. That independence does not mean that you shall misuse it. You shall use it properly. And what is that proper use?
General Lectures
So from Bhagavad-gītā we can understand there are two different qualities of consciousness. One consciousness is that I know about the pain and pleasure of my body, you know about the pains and pleasures of your body, but I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body; neither you know the pains and pleasure of my body. Therefore each and every one of us is individual soul, and our consciousness is limited within the body. Similarly, there is another consciousness and another body. That body is universal body, and that consciousness is universal. That universal consciousness knows your pains and pleasure, my pains and pleasure, and millions and trillions of living entities and bodies. He knows the pains and pleasures of everyone. These are the statements in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣetrajñaṁ ca māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata: "As individual soul is conscious, is, only of his body, similarly, I am also conscious of everyone's body."
The English translation is that "When an individual soul forgets his eternal relationship with God and tries to lord it over the material nature or resources, that condition, that forgetful condition, is called māyā, or illusion." So at the present moment, especially in this age, the forgetfulness of our eternal relationship with God is very strong. And by chanting this transcendental sound, Hare Kṛṣṇa, the first installment is that our heart or the mind becomes cleansed of all dirty things. This is not a theoretical proposition, but it is a fact. If you go on chanting this mantra, Hare Kṛṣṇa, it is not difficult. Although it is pronounced in Sanskrit language, everyone can chant it just like in this meeting we began to chant, and you also joined with us. Here, all my students, they are all Americans. None of them are Indian, but still, they have learned it very nicely, and it is not difficult. And there is no expenditure.
And the highest stage is to associate with the Supreme. Just like this picture, they are associating person to person. Another point is, as individual soul we require association, person to person. That is our nature. The Bhāgavata replies, ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvad aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). If somebody thinks by simple impersonal realization of Brahman, if he thinks that he has become liberated, then his intelligence is polluted. Ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvad aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Aviśuddha means not free from contamination. His intelligence is not free. Why? Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adho (SB 10.2.32).
In the Bhagavad-gītā also, the Lord says that "Myself, yourself, My dear Arjuna, and all these kings and soldiers who have come here, assembled here, they are all persons. They were all persons in the past, they are persons at present, and they will continue as persons in the future." These things are there. So individual soul or God, every one of us is person. Each and every one of us—person. Imperson is another feature of the person. Just like the same example. In sun planet there is person, the predominating deity, and his personal effulgence is the sunshine. The sunshine is imperson, but the planet is localized, and the predominating deity is person. The Bhagavata confirms it, brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The Absolute Truth is one. Just like the sun, the sunshine, and the deity within the sun, that is one unit. But some portion is called sunshine, some portion is called sun planet, some portion is called the deity.
So this is unity. The sun deity, the sun planet and the sunshine is one unit, but still, there is diversity. The division of the sunshine is different from the sun planet, the sun planet is different from the predominating deity in the sun planet. If you try to understand this way, then you will understand what is Paramātmā, the Supersoul; the individual soul; the impersonal Brahman; the personal Brahman—everything. Is that clear? So any other question? Yes?
"The feature of the Lord by which He is present everywhere is called the Paramātman. Ātman means the individual soul and Paramātman means the individual Supersoul. Both ātman and Paramātman are individual persons. The difference between them is that the ātman, or soul, is present only in one particular place, whereas the Paramātman is present everywhere. In this connection the example of the sun is very nice. An individual person may be situated in one place, but the sun, even though a specific individual entity, is present over the head of every individual person. In the Bhagavad-gītā this is very nicely explained.
Therefore even though the qualities of all entities, including the Lord, are equal, the Supersoul is different from the individual soul by quantity of expansion. The Lord or Supersoul can expand Himself into millions of different forms while the individual soul cannot do so. The Supersoul, being seated in everyone's heart, can witness everyone's activities—past, present and future. In the Upaniṣads the Supersoul is said to be sitting with the individual soul as a friend and witness. As a friend He is always anxious to get the individual soul back to home, back to Godhead. As a witness He is the endower of all benedictions that result from the individual's actions.
The Supersoul gives all facility to the individual soul for achieving whatever he may desire, but He instructs his friend so that he may ultimately give up all other engagements and simply surrender unto God for perpetual bliss and eternal life full of knowledge. This is the last instruction of the Bhagavad-gītā, the most authorized and widely read book on all forms of yoga. The last word of the Bhagavad-gītā, as stated above, is the last word in the matter of perfecting the yoga system. It is further stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that a person who is always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the topmost yogi. What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Just as the individual soul is present by his consciousness throughout the whole body, so the Supersoul or Paramātmā is present throughout the whole creation by His superconsciousness.
What is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness? Just as the individual soul is present by his consciousness throughout the whole body, so the Supersoul or Paramātmā is present throughout the whole creation by His superconsciousness. This superconsciousness cannot be imitated by the individual soul."
Prabhupāda: This consciousness formula is very simple to understand. Anyone can understand. Just like this body, so long the soul is there within this body, there is consciousness. Just like so long the sun is visible, there is heat and sunlight. Similarly, so long the soul is there within this body, we have got this consciousness. And as soon as the soul is gone from this body, there is no consciousness. So... But this consciousness, my consciousness, your consciousness is limited within this body. I cannot feel what pain and pleasure is within your body, neither you can feel.
They are now thinking in terms of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Similarly, if this consciousness is spread, so simple, then they will lose designation, there will be no more distinction, "Oh, I am Chinese," "I am Russian," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." The fighting is on the platform of designation. But if you say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also a designation, but that is not designation, because in the Vedic literature it is said that ahaṁ brahmāsmi. This is pure consciousness. Asmi, my identification, shall continue because I am an individual soul. That cannot be abolished. So when I am thinking that "I am God's," that is my designation-free stage. And when I think that I belong to this family, this country, this society, this group, so many things, then I am designated.
The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding, namely as Brahman, or the impersonal universal soul; Paramātmā, or the localized universal soul; and at the end as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. An individual soul is understood in three aspects, namely first in the consciousness pervading all over the body, then as the spirit soul within the heart, and ultimately exhibited as a person. Similarly, the Absolute Truth is first realized as impersonal Brahman, then as localized Supersoul, Paramātmā, and at the end as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa means all-inclusive, or, in other words, Kṛṣṇa is simultaneously Brahman, Paramātmā, and the Personality of Godhead. As such, as every one of us is simultaneously consciousness, soul, and person, this individual person and the Supreme Lord Person are qualitatively one but quantitatively different.
The chemical composition of the drop of sea water and that of the mass of sea water are one and the same, but the quantity of salt and other minerals in the whole sea is many, many times greater than the quantity of salt and other minerals contained in the drop of sea water. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement maintains the (sic:) speciality of the individual soul and the Supreme Soul. From the Vedic Upaniṣads we can understand that both the Supreme Person, or God, and the individual person are eternal and living entities. The difference is that the supreme living entity, or Supreme Person, maintains all the innumerable living entities. In the Christian way of understanding, the same principle is admitted because in the Bible it is taught that the individual entities should pray to the supreme father for supplying means of maintenance and giving pardon for their sinful activities.
That is required. Mayy asakta-manaḥ pārtha yogaṁ yuñjan mad-āśrayaḥ. That yoga system... At that time there is no yoga. It is already... Yoga system means a process which helps uniting with the Supreme. That is called yoga system. But when there is spontaneous love, that is not a yoga system. It is yoga already. United. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say that united means the individual soul has no more any separate existence, monism. They become one. But Vaiṣṇava philosophy, they say they become one, but at the same time they remain separate. So these things are to be realized. As we make advance in spontaneous love for God, then these things become automatically revealed. It is... Simply by theoretical exposition they cannot be understood. Therefore we have to practice.
Īśvaraḥ, the Supreme Lord, is residing in everyone's heart. Sarva-kṣetreṣu. Ksetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. In Bhagavad-gītā you'll find, kṣetra-kṣetrajña: the self and this body. And Bhagavad-gītā is stating what is this body and what is the self. So in that connection the Lord says that "You, the individual soul, he's the proprietor of this body." Or not exactly proprietor, but leaseholder. You cannot say you are proprietor, because as soon as you'll be asked, "Vacate," oh, you have to vacate. But you can say "leaseholder." Actually, it is leaseholder. We are, we are holding this body on certain lease term, for so many years. As soon as the lease period is over, "Vacate, please vacate." "Oh, I have got so much attraction for this body. How can I vacate?" Oh, there is no argument. "Please get out, immediately." "Oh, I am President of USA." "Oh, never mind. Immediately." (laughter) Yes, immediately.
That's your independence. If you like you can take it. If you don't like, you don't take it. There are so many things. If you like, you take it; if you don't like, you don't take it. There is no enforcement. Every individual soul has got little independence. Not full independence. That can be used properly; that can be misused also. That depends on me. I am the master. So similarly... Just like the government. The government does not force anybody to go to the criminal department, neither government forces anybody to come to the university department. It is your individual liberty. You become criminal or a high standard scholar. (break) ...has to make his choice. He has got the freedom. He may be Kṛṣṇa conscious or he may be material conscious. If he's material conscious, he'll never be happy. If he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he'll be always happy.
So everyone is knower of his own body. But there is another person, who says that "I know everything of everyone's body." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. He is known as Paramātmā. The individual knower is known as ātmā, or soul, spirit soul. (aside:) Yes. You can sit down on the bench. Yes. The individual soul is called ātmā. But there is another soul, Supersoul. He is called Paramātmā. Paramātmā is God. Paramātmā is God, but ātmā and Paramātmā, both of them are cognizant. Both of them know things. Just like I know something about my body or I know something about this world. Similarly, there is another ātmā, supreme ātmā, who knows everything of this universe. He is sometimes called God or the Paramātmā or Kṛṣṇa, whatever He..., according to different language.
Just like you love your ātmā very dearly, your life. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa being the ātmeśvaraḥ, the sum total of all ātmā, therefore ultimately Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu is our dear. Not only that; He is suhṛt. Kṛṣṇa is always thinking. In the Upaniṣad also there is a verse that the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are sitting as friends on this tree, or body. The one is eating the fruits of that tree and the other is witnessing. So what business has God, Kṛṣṇa, to witness your activities? No, He has got business because He wants to take you back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore He is suhṛt. Ātmeśvaraḥ suhṛt. Nobody is better friend than Kṛṣṇa, He is always thinking how this bewildered individual soul can be brought back to home, back to Godhead. He personally comes, therefore, canvassing. Sarva-guhyatamam. "The most confidential part of knowledge I am giving you, Arjuna, that you surrender unto Me. That is better."
Every moment, upadraṣṭā anumantā, God is within you, He is seeing all your activities. If you desire something, God will remind you. So that is good record. So all this record will be considered about your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye. It will be decided that "This particular or this individual soul, he has to accept such-and-such body." Daiva-netreṇa jantur. Then that soul is transferred to the father's semina, and the father injects the semina in the womb of the woman. And then in the first night, by emulsification of the two seminas, there is a form like a pea, and that pea grows into the body. This is the secret of different types of body.
So if we begin simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa, talking about Kṛṣṇa, then you become pious. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart. He's simply making the opportunity why the (indistinct), the individual souls are trying to approach Him. That is the yoga system. Yoga system means the jīvātmā, the soul, individual soul, tries to understand the Supersoul, Paramātmā. That is yoga system. It is not... It is mistaken idea that the Paramātmā and the ātmā, jīvātmā, is the same. They are same in quality, but Paramātmā is worshipable and jīvātmā is the worshiper. Paramātmā is the predominator and jīvātmā is the predominated. To understand this philosophy, that is yoga.
That means present, you can see. Just like we are sitting together. Present we can see that you are there, I am here. Similarly, in the past also we are existing, and in the future also we shall exist in the same way. As you are individual souls, we are assembled together for understanding something. Similarly, every individual soul is different from one another. We can understand by our present experiment. You are individual soul, I am individual soul. I do not agree with you in every respect, neither you agree with me in every respect. All of us, we have got our individuality. That is our characteristic. That we cannot change. We have got our individuality. We cannot change it. This is our characteristic. And that individuality also meant for giving service. Just like you are all sitting here.
Same is quality. But the individual soul is not exactly like the Supersoul. The Supersoul is within you and within me, within everywhere. But I, individual soul, I am only within me. You are within you. That is the difference. I cannot feel your pains and pleasure; neither you can feel my pains and pleasure. Therefore we are individual. But Supersoul, because He is in everyone's heart, He knows what is going on in everyone's body. That is Supersoul. Therefore He is called Supersoul. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. Supersoul, He is God. He can expand Himself in millions and millions of places. But I cannot do that; you cannot do that.
Philosophy Discussions
Śyāmasundara: Then how are the individualities accounted for?
Prabhupāda: Every individual soul is awarded a little portion of independence, because every individual soul is part and parcel of God, so he has got the quality of independence, in minute quantity. That is individuality.
Śyāmasundara: Just like, for instance, say, this particulate substance, he would say that there is a force or activity which constitutes the essence of this substance, and that is the monad of this substance. He is attributing it to everything, matter.
Prabhupāda: So we take the atom. Atom is the smallest. So we say within the atom the force is Kṛṣṇa. He is simply suggesting there is some enforcing power. We are giving directly that that is Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: And Paramātmā—is Paramātmā a person?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Paramātmā is a person. Every expansion—just like we are also expansion, atomic expansion of Kṛṣṇa. So we are persons. Every individual soul is a person. But we are expansion of Kṛṣṇa. Paramātmā is another expansion, viṣṇu-tattva. Rāmādi mūrtiṣu. That is another expansion, different kinds of expansions.
Śyāmasundara: Jīva ātmā is also a person?
Prabhupāda: Yes. If not person, then why the difference? You may not agree with my opinion, but if we agree voluntarily, not that exactly what I think you think, but because you have accepted me as your guru, as superior, therefore we agree. You are individual; you may not agree. You are individual and I am individual, Kṛṣṇa is individual. That is stated, nityo nityānām. Plural number. There are many individual souls, but He is the Supreme Individual Person.
Śyāmasundara: This idea of a monad means that...
Prabhupāda: You call it by any name, but within the atom there is the force—that is Kṛṣṇa. You call it monad or something else.
Śyāmasundara: But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out...
Prabhupāda: But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Kṛṣṇa is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there.
Śyāmasundara: So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That individual soul's force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Kṛṣṇa's force is still there, because it is combination of atoms.
Śyāmasundara: But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Śyāmasundara: Has no independence?
Prabhupāda: No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad-gītā it says that anumantā, individual soul, wants to do something and Kṛṣṇa gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes.
Śyāmasundara: So we have no free will?
Prabhupāda: So far as we get information, our knowledge is from the Vedic information, aṇḍāntara-stha paramāṇu: Kṛṣṇa is within, the Paramātmā. It does not say the soul is within, the Paramātmā.
Śyāmasundara: It doesn't say that an individual soul is present within the atom?
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is present.
Śyāmasundara: So then this philosophy of Leibnitz is not correct.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: That individual is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Kṛṣṇa directly.
Śyāmasundara: But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Within the body. Both of them—Kṛṣṇa is also there, and the individual soul is also there.
Śyāmasundara: He says that even though these monads are always active, they do not contact each other, neither do they affect each other. For example, if a bat hit a ball, in reality the bat did not really affect the ball.
Prabhupāda: But some individual soul has taken the bat, he has hit it, not the bat has hit it.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the bat and the ball are independent.
Prabhupāda: How they are independent? I am holding the bat. I am hitting the ball. So how can the bat is independent?
Śyāmasundara: That this is the function of the bat.
Prabhupāda: All of a sudden, as if it is coming from the sea.
Hayagrīva: He rejects the traditional proofs of God's existence in order to clear the ground for his assertion that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. In this universe, every soul is an end in itself, and these individual souls are like citizens in a kingdom of ends. He calls it "a kingdom of ends."
Prabhupāda: So why does he use that word kingdom if there is no king? This is unreasonable. Why does he say kingdom if...
Hayagrīva: Oh, he would say there is a king.
Hayagrīva: Oh, he would say there is a king.
Prabhupāda: ...he does not believe in king? He does not believe in God. The individual souls are ends themselves.
Hayagrīva: Oh, he believes in God...
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: ...but that he rejects the traditional proofs of God. He says that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. His philosophy is a philosophy of ethics and morality.
Hayagrīva: For him, he says that the categorical imperative is that "One should act in such a way that the maxim of one's action becomes the principle for universal law."
Prabhupāda: That cannot be done. By individual soul it is impossible...
Hayagrīva: For a man.
Prabhupāda: ...to do something which will be universally accepted. That is nonsense. That is not possible.
Prabhupāda: No. So God can do it. Just like God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām e.. (BG 18.66).. Because God says, it has to be accepted. But if some individual soul said, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām, who will do that? Nobody will do it. That's why we are preaching that "You surrender to Kṛṣṇa." We do not say that "You surrender to me." Who will hear me? "Who are you? Why shall I surrender to you?" But if one understands that God wants this surrender, then he will agree.
Prabhupāda: That is education. Every individual person, he is a soul, and he has got a particular type of body. Especially in the human body he requires education. What is this animal and what is higher than human race, these are Vedic description. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of life, and the body is being evolved. The body is machine, and the individual soul desires and he gets a suitable body made by material nature under the order of God. This is Vedic idea, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). God is existing within the core of everyone's heart, and the individual soul is desiring something, and upon the order God he is given a machine made by material nature.
Śyāmasundara: "All kinds of weapons, swords, flames, rains, tornadoes, etc., are unable to kill the spirit soul. It appears that there were many kinds of weapons made of earth, water, air, ether, etc., in addition to the modern weapons of fire. Even the nuclear weapons of the modern age are classified as fire weapons, but formerly there were other weapons made of all different types of material elements. Firearms were counteracted by water weapons, which are now unknown to modern science. Nor do modern scientists have knowledge of tornado weapons. Nonetheless, the soul can never be cut into pieces nor annihilated by any number of weapons, regardless of scientific devices. Nor was it ever possible to cut the individual souls from the original Soul. The Māyāvādī, however, cannot describe how the individual soul evolved from ignorance and consequently became covered by illusory energy. Because they are atomic individual souls (sanātana) eternally, they are prone to be covered by the illusory energy, and thus they become separated from the association of the Supreme Lord..."
Prabhupāda: The vital source of the soul can be temporarily covered by physical elements, but it is not belonging to the group of physical elements. That is our system.
Prabhupāda: But because we are imperfect, you are thinking like that, that individually we are imperfect. God is always there, and this cosmic manifestation is temporary creation. It is a chance to the individual soul to develop his consciousness, but if he does not take, again the annihilation, he remains in unconscious position, and when again there is creation he comes to consciousness. So this is going on.
Prabhupāda: The individual, who is put in this temporary world, willing and satisfaction, but he is reality behind this willing and satisfaction. (break) So Schopenhauer's defect is that he does not see the, there is a person behind this willing; the individual soul, he is willing. So when he stops this flickering willing, then what is next, that he does not see. Nirvāṇa, stopping willing, of this nature of willing, temporary, one kind of willing, one kind of satisfaction, again another kind of willing... Behind this willing whimsically there is the spirit soul. So when the spirit comes to his real understanding of identification, that willing is pure willing. This willing is contaminated willing, material willing. So simply one should not be satisfied by stopping this whimsical willing, but when he comes to the real willing of the real person, that is spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: This is evidence: that there is no soul. The self, the individual soul, is now departed; therefore this body is lump of matter. This is evidence. And because the soul is there, therefore the body changes or develops. Just like if a child is born dead, then the body does not develop or changes. It remains in the same condition. But so long the soul is there, the child grows or changes his body. That is evidence. Because the soul is there, therefore the child is growing or changing body from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth. Suppose a child is born, doctor says it is dead child. You say something is wanted, but what is that something? You do not know. Otherwise, if you know, you add it. What is that something?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the only evidence. Because the soul is there, that individual soul.
Devānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when death comes, at the moment... Before death, the whole body is alive, completely alive and functioning, and in a split second it's all finished, completely dead. That would be an evidence that it is not a chemical combination. If it were a chemical combination it would die slowly.
Śyāmasundara: He says that there are the phenomenological and the transcendental. The phenomenological ego, which uses conscience with...
Prabhupāda: Phenomenological ego means "I." "I am this individual soul." And transcendental ego is Paramātmā, Bhagavān.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's his distinction. The "I" feeling is, that would be the conscience which is made up of the data, day to day, that I observe, which is my world, the stream of consciousness, that "I think I am." So I may be allowed to...
Prabhupāda: No. At every moment I speculate my mind-accept something, reject something—then I am, "What is to be done?" Then something dictation is there. That is transcendental ego.
Śyāmasundara: He would call personality a set of behavior which is organized...
Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the personality comes? Because you are a living entity, you have got separate identity, therefore I recognize your personality. So without individual soul, how you can think of personality? There is no question of personality unless there is that individual living entity.
Revatīnandana: Is he saying that the self is an entity that tries to coordinate the conscious and unconscious?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, God... So that is our view, that consciousness, just like I am conscious, but I am conscious about my body. I am not conscious of your body. This is individual consciousness. You are conscious of your body, but you are not conscious of my body. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, kṣetra-kṣetrajña, that individual soul is conscious of his own body, each and every individual soul, but there is another consciousness, that is superconsciousness. That is God. God is in everyone's heart, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata (BG 13.3). I am also within the body, but He is not like that individual soul, limited within that body. He is residing in everyone's body, so that He is superconscious, Supersoul, Paramātmā.
Prabhupāda: He is person. That is the Vedic description. He is person exactly like us, but His personality is unlimited. The same example I was giving, that I am a person so far I am concerned with this particular body, but He is a person living in every body, Super Person. And in the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that that personality, either of God or of the individual soul, eternally existing. In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says that in the past we are existing, at present we are existing, and in the future we shall continue to exist. So past, present, future. That means all the time, eternally, both of them are person. One person is unlimited, and the other person is limited. Finite and infinite. So God is person, but the unlimited qualities, unlimited characteristics, unlimited power, unlimited strength, unlimited influence, unlimited knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "Now I simply act and do whatever You say, that's all." That is perfection. He is perfect. Everything is there.
Hayagrīva: Concerning God and the individual soul, he writes...
Prabhupāda: Now here is the perfection. Kṛṣṇa is speaking; individual soul, Arjuna, is hearing. So hearing, hearing, when he comes to the conclusion that "My all illusion is now over by Your mercy. Now I am fixed up in my original position." And what is that original position? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava: (BG 18.73) "Whatever You say, I shall do. The Bhagavad-gītā began from the point that Kṛṣṇa said to Arjuna, "You fight," and he denied to fight. He put so many pleas, that "How can I fight with them?" and so on, so on, so on, so on, so on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That... It is individual. We are individually initiating to Kṛṣṇa consciousness that the mass of people becomes a majority. If not in majority, at least a less percentage, then the face of the world will change. There is no doubt about it.
Hayagrīva: "The salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. Man's individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences," that is, atheistic Marxism.
Prabhupāda: Yes. At least those who have taken Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously, they never be converted either by Marxism or this "ism" or that "ism." That is not possible. They can convert the Marxist into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person can never be turned into Marxism.
Prabhupāda: Here the thing is that these are all childish suppositions. The real thing is that he should be educated. He should be educated. This should be done. He should be educated from the very beginning that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of real religion. He is talking this way and that. Education is required. Without education these things cannot be taught—by rewarding, by this way, by that way, by machine... It is all nonsense, everything. The first education is that every children should be taught from the very beginning that "You are not this body," and he should be taught the nature of the soul. Then he will come to the Supreme Soul. Then he will gradually come to the relationship between the Supreme Soul and the individual soul. And when he develops love for the Supreme Soul he will not violate the order of the Supreme. So that is our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Hayagrīva: This is Plotinus. Plotinus lived from 204-269 A.D. He was not Christian. He took... He's what's called a neo-Platonist, a new Platonist. Much of his philosophy comes from Plato. But he believed in the theory of emanation, that the soul emanates from the intelligence, what Aristotle called the nous, or the intelligence, and the intelligence emanates from the One, what he calls the One, who is omnipresent, transcendental, the cause of all multiplicities, the Lord of all. So there's a hierarchy in Plotinus of the One, the intelligence, and the individual souls.
Prabhupāda: The One is Vedic conception, ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti, Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth, advaya-jñāna. So this is our philosophy, that these living entities, soul, they are of the same quality as the one Supreme, but they are fragmental parts, emanation from Him.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣu avasthitaḥ: (BG 9.4) "Everything is resting in Me, but I am not present there."
Hayagrīva: As for the individual souls, some are unembodied and some are embodied. He believes that some are celestial—they are heavenly—and these souls do not suffer, and some, the ones on earth, suffer. In either case, they are all individuals.
Prabhupāda: That's right. There are souls, innumerable souls. Anantāya kalpate. Nobody can count how many souls are there. So all the souls are as described above. They have got the same qualities of the One, in minute quantity, but some of them are fallen. Just like in the fire there are so many sparks, but one or two may fall down from the fire. Others remains in the fire.
Hayagrīva: Plotinus saw the individual souls returning to God or the One through three stages. The first stage is that of asceticism, detaching oneself from the material world. The second stage, one detaches oneself from the process of reasoning itself. That would be mental speculation. And in the third stage the intellect transcends itself into the realm of the unknown, the realm of the One, and he speaks of this as an ecstasy, an involvement, or a transcendence of the ego. So these are the three stages of God realization that he sets down.
Prabhupāda: That means, what he called three stages, karmī, jñānī, yogi. That karmīs, they are trying to improve their condition by this material science and material advancement of education, and some of them are trying to go the heavenly planets by pious activities. These are karmīs.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That the individual soul, being attracted by this illusory energy, he comes here for sense gratification. It is not by the desire of the Supreme One. By his personal desire. So God gives him freedom. So he begins the life from a very exalted position in this material world—sometimes like Brahma. But on account of material activities he becomes entangled, so much so that degradation from the exalted position like Lord Brahma, he comes to become a worm in the stool. Therefore we find so many species of life. The degradation and elevation is going on—sometimes elevated, sometimes degraded—and in this way they will..., individual soul is suffering. That is his suffering, material miserable condition.
Rāmeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, excuse me. The sannyāsī...
Hayagrīva: So when the individual soul decides to withdraw, he becomes fragmented, isolated and weak, when he decides to withdraw from the, what he calls the palace of the King.
Prabhupāda: Withdraw, withdraw from the material world?
Hayagrīva: When he decides to withdraw from the spiritual realm, from the governance of the high King.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual wrong?
Hayagrīva: He uses this following metaphor. He says, "We are like a chorus grouped about a conductor who allow their attention to be distracted by the audience. If, however, they"—that is we, the individual souls—"were to turn toward their conductor, they would sing as they should and would really be with him. We are always around the One. If we were not, we would dissolve and cease to exist. Yet our gaze does not remain fixed upon the One. When we look at it, we then attain the end of our desires and find rest. Then it is that all discord passes. We dance an inspired dance around it. In this dance the soul looks upon the source of life, the source of the intelligence, the root of being, the cause of the good, the root of the soul. All these entities emanate from the One without any lessening, for it is not a material mass."
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is good sense, that God is individual and the soul is individual. As he has given the metaphor or analogy that the con..., parties of a concert party...
Prabhupāda: Our Vedic conception is almost the same, that the individual souls, or living entities, innumerable, and each one of them has an intimate relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the material condition of life the living entity has forgotten his relationship, and when, by the process of devotional service, he comes to his liberated position, at that time he revives his old relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Hayagrīva: Origen believed that it is through divine grace and man's free will working together that the individual soul attains perfection, and perfection consists of attaining a personal relationship with the Infinite Person.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called Bhakti-mārga. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagavān. Bhagavān is the personal feature, and Paramātmā feature may be compared with the Holy Ghost when situated in everyone's heart. And Brahman feature, everywhere. By His energy He is present everywhere. So the perfection, highest perfection of spiritual life, is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the person, personal feature of the Lord, and engages himself, the living entity engages himself in His service.
Prabhupāda: Christ behold?
Hayagrīva: The individual soul can then see Christ face to face when he attains his spiritual body.
Prabhupāda: What is the position of Christ?
Hayagrīva: What is the position of Christ?
Prabhupāda: He, does he describe anything?
Hayagrīva: Well, not Origen. The position of Christ is that he is seated at the right hand of the father, that he is in the spiritual sky with the father.
Hayagrīva: That's the idea.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We also think like that.
Hayagrīva: He didn't believe that the individual soul existed from all eternity. It was created. The...
Prabhupāda: No.
Hayagrīva: The rational natures that were made in the beginning did not always exist. They came into being when they were created.
Hayagrīva: At the same time Origen differed from the later Church tradition in his belief in the transmigration of the soul. Although he believed that the soul was originally created, he believed that it transmigrated, and it transmigrated because the soul, the individual soul, could always refuse to give itself to God, although he believed that ultimately the time will come when everyone will return, and God's rule will be restored to its original integrity. This differed from later Christian tradition, which said that the choice one made in this one lifetime was decisive for all eternity. Origen doesn't believe this. He believes that you can be reincarnated at the end of this lifetime if you don't attain the ultimate goal. You'd be reincarnated in some other form.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our version of the Vedas. Unless he is liberated or goes to the kingdom of God, he is, repeats, transforms, or transmigrates from one material body to another, because material body is not eternal.
Hayagrīva: This is the continuation of Augustine. Augustine writes, "God is not the soul of all things but the maker of all souls." So this doctrine seems to admit of the transcendence of God but not of the eminence of God, at least not as the Paramātmā accompanying the individual soul.
Prabhupāda: He does not accept Paramātmā?
Hayagrīva: It doesn't seem to be. It seems that...
Prabhupāda: Then how God is all-pervading? The Paramātmā conception is there in the Brahma-saṁhitā:
Prabhupāda: Sītā uṣṇa. That is perceived. An old man perceives very much cold, and a young child, he does not perceive—according to the body. An animal, naked body, he can walk on the street in severe cold, but a man cannot. So this body is the source of suffering and enjoying. So why not take it as punishment and reward?
Hayagrīva: Well, Augustine believes that each individual man, or each individual soul within man, is not necessarily condemned to earth due to his own personal desire or sin but due to the original sin of Adam, the first man. He writes, "When the first couple," that's Adam and Eve, "were punished by the judgment of God, the whole human race, which was to become Adam's posterity through the first woman, was present in the first man." So that was the origin of sin and death. So man's sin is not personal. The reason I'm in..., conditioned in this human body is not because I personally committed a mistake...
Prabhupāda: No. The soul is created and... Actually not created. Soul is existing along with God, just like the sparks of fire is existing with the fire. But the difference between the two fire is that the sparks may be separated from the big fire, and when it is separated, is loses its illumination. Similarly, an individual soul is already there. The master is there and the servants are there, eternally. Just like the body is there, the parts of the body are also there. We cannot say that the parts of the body is separately created. As soon as the body is there, the fingers of the body are there, the other limbs and parts of the body are all there. The soul is never created or never dead. It is explained in the Bhāgavata, na jāyate vā mriyate vā. Soul has neither creation nor death.
Prabhupāda: He simply transfers from this body to another body, and when he is liberated, then he hasn't got to accept any more material body. Then in his original, spiritual body he goes back to home, back to Godhead. So actually the soul is never created. It is always existing with God, and this is nice that if it is accepted the soul is created, then God is also Supreme Soul—the question may be raised that He is also created. So that is not the fact. God is eternal, and His part and parcels are also eternal. The only difference is that God never accepts this material body, but the individual soul, being small particle, it may be sometimes he succumbs by the material energy.
Hayagrīva: So..., but the soul is eternally existing with God in some form?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we have to accept God's instruction. He definitely gives the information, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). Īśvaraḥ means the controller. So the soul is the controller of this body. So He is within the heart; it is already there. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). There are two kinds of īśvaraḥ, controller. One is the ordinary controller, that means the individual living being, and the other is the supreme living being. We get from Vedic information both of them sitting together on this body tree. So both cases, the Supersoul and the individual soul, they are living within the heart. That is the right conclusion.
Hayagrīva: Spinoza's God is clearly not a personal God. Spinoza is an impersonalist, and his love for God is more intellectual or philosophical than theistic or religious. Being an impersonalist, Spinoza believed in the identity of the individual soul with God. This is not to say that he believed that the individual soul is infinite, but that it is not distinct from God. He writes, "Thus that love of the soul is a part of the infinite love with which God loves Himself." He sees the soul's intellectual love of God and God's love for the individual soul, which is within man, to be one and the same love.
Prabhupāda: Love is five kinds of love: śānta, dāsya, sākhya, vatsalya, mādhurya. The beginning of love is awe and adoration: "Oh, God is so great. God is everything." When he understands God's potency, unlimitedness, the soul adores Him. That adoration is also love. When that adoration is further advanced, then he serves God as master and servant.
Hayagrīva: He sees the religion of India as a religion in which man is handed laws from a God who is exterior to man, from a will that is entirely foreign to man. And he sees this to be opposed to what he considers to be a more advanced religion, in which the individual soul is lifted to the supernatural through the use of reason, internal sanction or subjective confirmation. In other words, he sees the Indian religion as being blind following of an exterior will. He says that man can only attain God through the exercise of his own free will.
Prabhupāda: Then why the animals cannot? Animal is given complete free will.
Prabhupāda: That is also not. He is not separated. He is, brahman and ātmān, they are existing, co-existing, and that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā in the chapter "Kṣetra and Kṣetrajña." The body is the field, and the ātmā, individual soul, is the owner of the field or the worker in the field. So it is also said there is another owner, kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ vidhi. As the individual is working in the body, similarly, there is another soul working in the body. So what is the difference between the two? The two is different that the individual soul knows only about his own body, but the other soul, Supersoul, He knows everything of every body. That is the difference. I know the pains and pleasure of my body. I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body.
Prabhupāda: I know the pains and pleasure of my body. I do not know the pains and pleasure of your body. But this Supersoul, He knows the pains and pleasure of this body, of that body, of millions and millions of bodies. That is the difference between the two souls. But the two souls are there. One is called Supersoul, paramātmā, and the individual soul is called ātmā. So ātmā and paramātmā are there. The difference between them is that ātmā knows about his own body and the paramātmā knows everything of all bodies. That is the difference.
Prabhupāda: Then that does not mean that the ātmā becomes the paramātmā. Just like a drop of water, you put into the sea, it mixes with the sea. It is not mixing. Now suppose it is mixing, but that does not mean that the drop of water has become the sea. He is mixed with the seawater, but that, that does not mean he is the sea. He was not sea before, and after dropping him in the sea, he remains as what he was, but he is mixed up in the sea. Just like an airplane is flying, you see, and going higher and higher, and going very high you do not see. That doesn't mean the airplane is lost. You do not see. So these Sankarites' proposal is defective. Just like a green bird enters a tree but you do not see the bird anymore. You simply foolishly think that he has become one with the tree. But that is foolishness. He keeps his individuality, but your defective eyes cannot see him anymore. The Sankarite theory is like that, a defective understanding, that the individual soul merges into the Supreme. He keeps always his individuality. The foolish man cannot see how he has merged or existing.
Prabhupāda: So he is..., he does not believe..., there is no belief in God is there? There is no question of? No. But our point of view is different: that God is the ultimate decider of everything. That is called daiva-netreṇa. He may be acting through different agents, but ultimate decision is given by Him. And He is sitting in everyone's heart. He is observing the activities of the individual soul as witness, giving permission. Without God's permission, nobody can act. So He is giving intelligence also, and He is the cause of forgetting. Two things are there, remembering and forgetting. Both these things are coming from God. If He keeps him in forgetfulness, then he cannot remember, and if He gives him the power to remember, he can remember for long, long past activities. So ultimately God is the final director. That is our conception.
Purports to Songs
This is the first business, how to save this body. Now, the next question is "Why you are so much anxious to save this body?" What will be the answer? Can anyone say? Why one is so much attached with this body? The answer is that because I, the real I, I am within this body, therefore I am anxious to save it. Then why you are anxious to save the soul, individual soul? The answer will be that because I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So ultimately we want to love Kṛṣṇa, but because we are in a forgetful platform, then someone is trying to save his body, someone is trying to save his bodily relationship. Therefore in so many ways we are implicated with this material atmosphere.
So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu came to teach us how to become detached to this material. That is vairāgya-vidyā. Vidyā means vairāgya-vidyā. Vidyā does not mean to become more and more attached to this material world. That is not... That is avidyā, illusion, because I will not be able to save this body.
| Page Title: | Individual souls (Lectures, Other) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, RupaManjari |
| Created: | 20 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=85, Con=0, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 85 |