Killing animals (Conversations, 1974-1976)

Expressions researched:
"animal" |"animals" |"kill" |"killed" |"killing" |"kills"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query: "kill* animal*"@5

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 21, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: ...sinful activities, fishing. Just see. Killing another animal. Beginning of life, of the day. Such a nice civilization they have created: waste of time and sinful activities.

Morning Walk -- February 17, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, from the First Commandment it appears that they were not very enlightened because why does he say "Thou shall not kill"? That means they were killers.

Dr. Patel: They were killing. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: They were killers.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they would not have said, "Thou shall not kill."

Prabhupāda: Why the first commandment is there, "Thou shall not kill"? They were fighting and killing amongst themselves. Not very advanced nation. And he was horrified when he saw that the Jews were killing animals.

Dr. Patel: In the temple.

Prabhupāda: In the temple.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So much, lying vacant. They have taken it into consideration that "What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily." Because he doesn't care for sinful activities. The... "If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the...?" This is going on, all over the world.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hṛdayānanda: What he kills.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhīma, Bhīma also eating sometimes meat. Bhīma. Amongst the Pāṇḍavas, only Bhīma. Not others. So if the kṣatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the caṇḍālas.

Hṛdayānanda: But never the cow.

Prabhupāda: No.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Yaduvara: How would the kṣatriyas kill the animals?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

Prabhupāda: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Now, my point is that Buddhism was rejected from India because he's decried the authority of Vedas.

Indian man (3): So this fellow also will be rejected.

Prabhupāda: That... Yes, immediately. Because he does not accept the authority of Vedas. That is real knowledge. Nindasi yajña-vidher ahaha śruti-jātam Yes, yajña, I mean to say, criticize the yajña-vidhi. Yajña-vidhi you cannot criticize. Yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra loko 'yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ (BG 3.9). Karma-bandhana. So yajña must go on, and the vidhi must be followed. That is real acceptance of Vedic knowledge. If you manufacture your own concoction, "This is good, this is bad," that will not help you.

Indian man (3): Vetas pi pavitranam svadhinam ca tasam api, vedanam ca na kartavyam nindha saddhya...(?)

Prabhupāda: But why he's making nindā? You don't eat, even it is... Now in the first you said, you don't..., you cannot kill animal, even if it is...

Indian man (3): I, I follow even though you said that you kill it for the sake of yajña, I am not going to kill it, that's all. That is my personal...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That you can do. But you cannot decry the Vedic laws.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Indian man (2): You want us to eat meat by saying that the Vaiṣṇavas..., we won't do it.

Prabhupāda: The Vaiṣṇava is forbidden.

Indian man (2): But then, this is a Vaiṣṇava way, forbidden to eat the meat.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But therefore you cannot decry the Vedas.

Indian man (4): But this is not Veda, you see? If you kill an animal and sacrifice in the way of...

Prabhupāda: That is Vedic injunction. Sacrifice is done...

Indian man (4): This is tantra, not Veda. Vedas don't want. And there used to be animal living again after killing it...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man (4): Are you able to do it?

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Indian man (4): So this is tantra. He wants to decry the tantra, not Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Indian man (4): By tantra they're verily killing animals to eat them away for the pleasure of their teeth, for the pleasure of the tongue.

Prabhupāda: Tantra, tantra... I do not know what kind of tantra...

Dr. Patel: ...does not believe in killing animal and eating it even... Vedas say you can eat, I will not. And I don't mind decrying the Vedas that way, if you say so, sir. (indistinct) Vaiṣṇava, I don't think I can allow anyone to be killed. I'm very sorry to say this.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Dr. Patel: If the Vedas say "Kill," I won't. I won't, don't want that.

Prabhupāda: That is Buddhism.

Dr. Patel: I don't mind you call me a Buddhist or a fool, but I won't kill an animal, being a Vaiṣṇava myself.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the thing is that you may not like something, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas.

Dr. Patel: This is not decrying the authority of Vedas.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: ...excuse me, I will bring the Vedas before you. I have studied.

Prabhupāda: You can manufacture your own way...

Dr. Patel: I'm not manufacturing, I'm not manufacturing. Nowhere Veda say you kill the animals, and eat them away. They, our forefathers were so clever as to kill them and bring them living again.

Prabhupāda: Every sacrifice, every sacrifice there is written in injunction of Vedic...

Dr. Patel: Sacrificing means you're sacrificing your own...

Prabhupāda: You may mean something, but actually, that is not the meaning. That is the difference. You may mean something. The point is that you may follow. In the Vedas there are different ways, but you cannot decry the authority of the Vedas. That is the point.

Dr. Patel: The ideal Vaiṣṇava will not say this. The ideal Vaiṣṇava. Even Vedas say to kill an animal anytime, I won't. I won't kill it, I won't eat it. I'll not eat even in England as a student of London University-meat.

Prabhupāda: I'm recommending you to eat meat?

Dr. Patel: No, you eat the..., indirectly so.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Dr. Patel: I'm very sorry.

Prabhupāda: It is very difficult to talk with you. Therefore you cannot take any lesson.

Dr. Patel: No, I'm not taking this lesson, going to kill an animal to eat it. That lesson in no way I will take.

Prabhupāda: That is meant for others!

Dr. Patel: Ācchā! Not for me.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Dr. Patel: Otherwise, as a Vaiṣṇava you can't...

Prabhupāda: I don't say that Vaiṣṇava. Why I'll say? Why you talk like that?

Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Swamiji told his disciples not to take meat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: You cannot reject the rascals and fools. That is the way.

Dr. Patel: But he is rejecting rascals and fools.

Prabhupāda: Gradually, gradually. Just like...

Dr. Patel: As a Vaiṣṇava we can't tolerate meat.

Prabhupāda: That is all right, but...

Dr. Patel: I can...

Prabhupāda: ...you cannot...

Dr. Patel: ...not mix it. They go, sometimes, and feed (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: Even they go, that does not mean they're going to kill animal.

Dr. Patel: But suppose an animal is killed and prasāda is offered, they won't take it.

Prabhupāda: No, no, yes.

Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that is what it says, "Don't take this prasāda even if it is offered."

Prabhupāda: But I cannot say to stop animal sacrifice before the deity Goddess Kālī. That I cannot say. I cannot disobey. I may not take it.

Dr. Patel: That is what he means to say, but...

Prabhupāda: But you cannot say that I reject...

Dr. Patel: "My followers do not take meat even kālī-yajña."

Prabhupāda: You cannot dictate on the Vedic authority. Veda...

Dr. Patel: Kālī temple, Kālī temple is not Vedic, but it is Tantric, Tantric.

Prabhupāda: That you say, that you say. Not tantra. Tantra is also within the Vedas. Just like we have got Nārada-pañcarātra.

Dr. Patel: That's right, but we are following Nārada-pañcarātra, aren't we?

Prabhupāda: Tantra.

Dr. Patel: All of us. All Vaiṣṇavas in India, Nārada-pañcarātra is very pivot around which we all live on.

Prabhupāda: We are not advocating meat eating. You do not understand. We are saying that even if you don't eat meat, you cannot decry the arrangement in the Vedas. That you cannot do.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Do you think that killing is bad?

Indian man (2): No, no, no... Yes. Whatever Kṛṣṇa says is right, and whatever we say is wrong. We say kill the animal is wrong. Kṛṣṇa says kill the animal is right. Okay?

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, I mean to say, do you mean to say killing an animal is bad, and killing a man is not bad?

Indian man (2): No, if Kṛṣṇa says, "Kill the man, kill this man," then it's right. If I say "Kill this man," is wrong.

Prabhupāda: I mean, Kṛṣṇa killed some animals, also.

Indian man (2): Then it is right. Whatever Kṛṣṇa does is right, because He has the power to create, I know.

Prabhupāda: That's right, that's all right.

Indian man (2): There is nothing that's killed. What is killed? Kill is body, ātmā is sanātana.

Prabhupāda: You abide by the order of Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (2): That is what we are abiding, but that is...

Prabhupāda: Not killing and not killing.

Dr. Patel: That is what I say.

Prabhupāda: These are material conceptions. If Kṛṣṇa says, "You kill," you should kill.

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1974, Bombay:

Nivṛtta-tarsaiḥ means one who has ceased material desires. He can chant. He can glorify. But it is not for ordinary mundane people. Nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād bhavauṣādhi chrotra-mano 'bhirāmāt (SB 10.1.4). And this chanting is bhavauṣādhi. There is some... (break) ...of holy name or glorifying the Lord is the medicine for this material disease. Material disease means repetition of birth and death. To stop this repetition of birth and death, this is the only remedy. And this is used by liberated persons. So such a nice thing, who can refrain from it? Vinā paśughnāt: (SB 10.1.4) unless one is animal killer, one cannot cease from this business. Therefore animal killing is so sinful.

nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānād

bhavauṣādhi chrotra-mano 'bhirāmāt

ka uttama-śloka-guṇānuvādāt

(pumān) virajyeta vinā paśughnāt

(SB 10.1.4)

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: But if the man says, "I am Muslim; how you can say I am disobedient to the laws of God? I am following my own religion?"

Prabhupāda: No, no, we shall come to the Muslims next. First of all let us talk with the Christians.

Satsvarūpa: We are always arguing with them. They say they are following. They are allowed to kill animals.

Pañcadraviḍa: "I am accepting Christ. Therefore I am saved. I am following closely Christianity."

Prabhupāda: No, no. If you love God, then why you are disobeying His order. That is my charge, first thing. God says, "Thou shalt not kill," but why you are killing? This is the charge I give to the Christians.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: How disobeying if the person says, "I am vegetarian. I do not kill. I am a Christian, but I am vegetarian, I do not kill animals?"

Prabhupāda: Then you are all right. But they... Who put forward the argument that "You are also killing vegetable?" Then how can kill vegetable?

Nitai: In Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa... Just as you quoted.

Prabhupāda: The thing is that we must eat something. And vegetables also have got life. The nature's way is that one living entity is eating another living entity. It may be animal or it may be vegetable. The question is the obedience to the order of God. So when Jesus Christ says that "Thou shalt not kill," it means bigger animals. Killing is applied, from dictionary, if I kill a man, if I kill an animal, then this word is used. So he meant like that. And that is very reasonable.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Because I am eating another living entity, that does not I can eat another man. So therefore Kṛṣṇa has specifically mentioned, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati (BG 9.26). After all, we have to eat. And if you take that all killing is the same, even by ordinary law, if I kill one tree, and if I kill one man, does it mean it is of the same degree? Even taking killing of plant, so there are comparative. But it is also necessity that we must eat something. So therefore here, perfect thing in the Bhagavad-gītā, that He says that "You offer Me." "Offer Me" means "After My eating, you shall eat." Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Even by killing vegetable, you are also as sinful as killing animal, but because we offer to Kṛṣṇa, therefore we are not sinful. Kṛṣṇa wants it. Just like Kṛṣṇa wanted Arjuna to fight and kill the other party. Therefore Arjuna is not infected with the sin. So here Kṛṣṇa is asking, "Give me this foodstuff," and Kṛṣṇa knows that I will eat the remnants of the foodstuff. So I am not responsible.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: But when Jesus said, "Thou shalt not kill," he meant humans; he did not mean animals.

Prabhupāda: That is your interpretation.

Akṣayānanda: But Jesus was a shepherd and there were many, many sheep. What did they do with all the sheep?

Prabhupāda: They eat?

Pañcadraviḍa: They must.

Prabhupāda: They must. That is your inference.

Pañcadraviḍa: What else...? In the middle of desert...? Babylon, Israel is all desert country. What will they do with sheep? They are not making wool coats.

Prabhupāda: Then why he has said, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then hypocrisy. Then you reject Jesus complete. He is a hypocrite. Yes. That is the conclusion. How can you follow hypocrite? Huh? Is that all right? If Jesus Christ himself killed animals and he said, "Thou shalt not kill," then he is a hypocrite. Then he cannot preach. He is a hypocrite. You are bringing Christ for condemnation

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: "But we say that when Christ said, Thou shalt not kill, and you say it refers all living beings, we say that is your interpretation because Christ is coming to teach fishermen. He never told them to give up their occupation. They continued to live as fishermen. Continued to live as sheep herders. He knew that killing was going on. Therefore his statement, 'Thou shalt not kill,' must refer to human beings because he was living in the community. He was teaching by his example."

Prabhupāda: But I can say, "Why not to the animals? You can eat fish only." Then I'll write book like that. Jesus Christ allowed the fishermen to fish, so then you can fish. Why you are killing cows? That will be my argument. If you are actually following Christ, all right, you can take fish, but why you are killing animals, and other animals? Why you are going that "Because Christ has allowed some fish killing, therefore everyone should be killed"? What is this nonsense? You follow strictly. All right, fish-killing.

Morning Walk -- April 22, 1974, Hyderabad:

Pañcadraviḍa: What is the difference between fish killing and goat killing?

Prabhupāda: Then everyone will say what is the difference between animal killing and and man killing?

Pañcadraviḍa: There is big difference between animal killing and...

Prabhupāda: Why big difference?

Pañcadraviḍa: If a man goes into the road he runs over a dog, there will not be so much punishment. But if a man goes into the road, he runs over...

Prabhupāda: That you have made, your laws. You have made that, if you kill a man and if you kill an animal, that is not equal. That is your... But that does not mean when it is said, "Thou shalt not kill"... This is no argument.