Prabhupāda: So nature means these five elements, eight elements. So that has been manipulated by another living entity. Just like the aeroplane is a combination of some matter, but it is being worked out by the manufacturer, by the pilot. Therefore that driver of the aeroplane or the manufacturer of the..., he's superior. So superior to the material nature is Kṛṣṇa. This is the conclusion. (break) ...our position is that we are being controlled by the material nature, and, and nature, material nature, is controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So the sense is that one who is at all sensible, that "After all, the controller is Kṛṣṇa. So why not directly under control of Kṛṣṇa?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Why through the material nature? I have to be controlled. I am being controlled by the material nature; and material nature is being controlled by Kṛṣṇa. So why not being directly controlled? This is good sense.
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Bali-mardana: Kṛṣṇa is benevolent, and the material nature is not.
Prabhupāda: No, material nature... Just like you don't care for government. Then you be controlled by the jail superintendent. That's all. You'll be controlled. You cannot be free. But if you deny directly the control of the government then you must be controlled by the criminal department, by force. This is your position.