View source for Then what would that be then? What would that be, that all perfection?

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{{terms|"Then what would that be then"|"What would that be, that all perfection"}}
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{{compiler|MadhuGopaldas|Rishab}}
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[[Category:Questions asked to Srila Prabhupada]]
[[Category:Questions asked to SP... 1975]]
[[Category:Questions On... Spirituality (General)]]
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<div id="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="section" sec_index="5" parent="compilation" text="Conversations and Morning Walks"><h2>Conversations and Morning Walks</h2>
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<div id="1975_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" class="sub_section" sec_index="8" parent="Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" text="1975 Conversations and Morning Walks"><h3>1975 Conversations and Morning Walks</h3>
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<div id="RoomConversationwithProfessorsFebruary191975Caracas_0" class="quote" parent="1975_Conversations_and_Morning_Walks" book="Con" index="8" link="Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas" link_text="Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas">
<div class="heading">That is transcendence. You come in contact with the transcendence, all-perfect. Then you become all-perfect.
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<span class="link">[[Vanisource:Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas|Room Conversation with Professors -- February 19, 1975, Caracas]]: </span><div class="text"><p style="display: inline;">Professor: There are many religions that have no God.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Religion cannot be many; religion is one. If anyone says there are many religions, that, he does not know what is religion. Just like science: two plus two is equal to four. It is equally applicable everywhere. You cannot say that "To the Christian two plus two equal to five," the "Christian science" or "Christian mathematics." That you cannot say. Science and mathematics is the same everywhere. If God is one, therefore knowledge of God should be one. There cannot be two.</p>
<p>Professor: No, that's ideally, but is not so.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You hear. Because you imperfect, you have so many things. But we hear differently.</p>
<p>Professor: I know that there is only one God.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: We say that God is one. Whether you accept it or not? Unless God is one, there cannot be God. God cannot be many. God means, in the dictionary it is said, "Supreme Being." The Supreme Being can be one. If there is competition of Supreme Being, then he is not Supreme Being. That is the philosophy. That is the philosophy. Then we have to find out who is that Supreme Being. You cannot say... You find somebody who has got little power. You cannot say, "Now here is God." The supreme power, that is God. Just like money, that is also one of the qualification of God. But money, He has got all the money. You may have got some money, some millions dollars. I may have got little more than that. But nobody can say, "I have got all the money." Or one can say that "I have got all the money," then He is God.</p>
<p>Guests: (Spanish)</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: They want to hear the translation.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Is the final goal of transcendence, then, immortality?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: All perfection.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Then what would that be then? What would that be, that all perfection?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is transcendence. You come in contact with the transcendence, all-perfect. Then you become all-perfect.</p>
<p>Professor: Is God perfect?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise how He is God? He is dog.</p>
<p>Professor: Is transcendence God?</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: They don't want to miss anything.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): They want to know: is God the transcendence?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: What is the transcendence? Find out the meaning.</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: I can read it? First I'll read it in English. To transcend... It only has the word transcend. "Go beyond..."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not "to," the verb, I mean to say, transcendence. So find out the noun.</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: Noun is not here.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Not here?</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: But I can change it into the noun. The transcendence: "That which goes beyond, that which exceeds the limits, rises above." And also transcendence means "that which transcends ordinary limits, the supreme, the preeminent." So I'll translate it.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: This is the meaning is there, that our mind, our bodily activities, our words, they are all limited. They are all limited. Do you accept or not?</p>
<p>Professor: By time.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. It may be by time. Suppose a child, he can say, "I am now foolish for the time." But he is foolish at that time. That is not argument, that this child expects to become an M.A. That does not mean he can say he is M.A. at that time. So you cannot make time. Unless you are perfect in knowledge, you cannot say that you are in knowledge. Time, everyone has got the chance. In time he will be in perfect knowledge. That is not... There is no disagreement. But so long he is imperfect, he must admit that he is imperfect. Now, a businessman, a small businessman, he is trying to become millionaire, and if he says, "I will become millionaire in time," that does not mean he is millionaire. He must first of all become millionaire. Then he should claim.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): If he accepts that he is imperfect, what experience qualifies him to talk about God?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That I have already discussed, that you have to go to the perfect and take his experience. And then, gradually, you become a perfect.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So then everything would be an act of faith, simply to believe.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no, no, not believe. You just corroborate it with your experimental knowledge, and you will find it is right. Just like Kṛṣṇa says that...</p>
<p>Professor: Excuse me.</p>
<p>Hṛdayānanda: He says that in order...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, he wants to say something.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that in order to do any activity it requires some motivation. And so therefore one gets this realization by practicing, but it seems like someone would have to be a special person with something inside him in order to have the determination to practice it, in order to go ahead to try to get the realization.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes that is required. There must be determination, and whatever knowledge you get, that must be for practical use. Now, just like in the Bhagavad-gītā... Shall I speak? That he says that the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you make your thoughts working on this, that what is that proprietor? And you find that actually this body is not the proprietor, but body is the property, the proprietor is within the body. Then your knowledge is perfect. Then your thoughts, your reasoning... You accept the statement of Kṛṣṇa that the proprietor of the body is within the body. That is knowledge, perfect knowledge. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is perfect, but you corroborate with your reason, with your experimental knowledge, and you will find that is perfect. Then it is perfect.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that with his psychology he cannot accept that there should be some clue, some key, that could permit him to accept it.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That psychology is perfect where there is clue. Otherwise you will speculate all your life.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): Then he's asking, he's humbly asking you to give him a little bit of the clue.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, just like... It is very common sense clue. Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor of the body is within the body. Now, you were a child. So in your child body, you were present there, and in your boyhood body, you were present there. In your youthhood body, you were present there. Now you are middle-aged. You are there. I am old man. I am there. So body, the childhood body, the boyhood body, the youthhood body, they are no more existing, but I am existing. Therefore I am eternal; the body is temporary. This is the clue. Therefore the conclusion is that as I have changed so many body but still I am existing, therefore, when I shall change this body, I will exist. Now, I have transmigrated from babyhood body to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. Similarly, I shall transmigrate to another body. A you..., young man can say, "No, no, I don't believe in the old body," but that does not mean he will not get the old body. He will get it by laws of nature. That is compulsory. Similarly, if somebody says, "I don't believe in the next life," that does not mean he is authority. Nature will give him. Nature will not agree or obey the imperfect person. The same example: if the young man says, "I don't want old body," nature will not hear him. Nature will give him, force him: "You must accept old body." Everyone does not want to die, but nature puts him forcibly: "Yes, you must die." So after all, we are perfectly under the control of superior authority. We cannot become independent, and our independent thoughts has no value.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that he thinks this will increase our problem because psychologically it's bad that nature is so big and we're so tiny.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Well, you have already increased your problem.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: There is no solution. There is no solution. You have no solution for anything, so you have increased your problems. Without perfect knowledge, you'll simply increase your problems. That's all.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): How can we get this perfect knowledge and how can we practice it if we're like prisoners?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. You have to go to the perfect person.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said first of all that he asked you to give evidence, but that you did not. You said that you'd have evidence, but you did not give it.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Here is evidence. I have said that Kṛṣṇa says the proprietor lives within the body. Now you just try to understand and you will find that yes, this body is not the... This is a property. The proprietor is within. That is perfect knowledge. Just like a big mill going on. But if somebody does not find out the proprietor, then does it mean that there is no proprietor?</p>
<p>Professor: I am the owner of my own self.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: You are the not owner, but you are occupier.</p>
<p>Professor: Occupier.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a house. There are two persons, one is the tenant and the other is the landlord. The proprietor is the landlord, and the tenant is occupier. Actually that is self-realization, that I must know that "I am occupier of this body but I am not proprietor." The proprietor is God.</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying that all religions agree that man can be perfected although he may not be perfect now...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, we are not talking of religion. We are talking of philosophy and science. When we talk about these things that the occupier of the body is within the body, it is neither any Christian knowledge nor Hindu knowledge nor... It is fact. It is a science. The science cannot be "I believe or you believe or you..." That is not science. Science is science. I have already said. Two plus two equal to four is equally applicable everywhere. Similarly, this is knowledge, that the proprietor, or the occupier of the body, is within the body. You can study from any angle of vision. The fact is there.</p>
<p>Professor: Is it transcendent?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, that occupier or...</p>
<p>Professor: I don't care who is the owner of my body. I know that it is not going to be eternally mine because this body is going to corrupt, is going to die, and we will have to bury it so that everybody will be happy. But I don't care about that because I...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That is animal. That is animal. That is animal conception. That is animal conception, that a dog doesn't care. Similarly, if you don't care, then you are no better than the dog.</p>
<p>Professor: I would not agree with that.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Why not? Because your conception, the dog conception, the same.</p>
<p>Professor: Well, you were saying beforehand...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no, the dog doesn't care whether he is the proprietor of the body or not. So if I don't care, then what is the difference between dog and me?</p>
<p>Professor: The difference between dog and men is a very slight one, that men can think, that men can reason.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: So, you say slight; we say nothing. Unless one has got this transcendental knowledge, he is no better than the dog.</p>
<p>Professor: Dogs have knowledge.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: Yes, for eating, sleeping and sex life and defense, everyone has got knowledge. Dog has knowledge. You have got knowledge. But what is the distinction between you and dog? In your life, you can realize the transcendence. The dog cannot. That makes you distinct from...</p>
<p>Professor: Now, how can you be so sure of that? Have you ever been in a dog's mind? How can... As you have already said...</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: There is no need... There is no need because dog is busy for his bodily requisition. And if you are simply busy for your bodily requisition, then what is the difference between you and dog? We have to take the principle.</p>
<p>Professor: Why is that difference so important for you?</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, no, fundamentally what is the difference? The dog is whole day busy to find out his food, and if you are also busy to find out your food, then where is the difference?</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He's saying, "Because I am not this body, therefore it doesn't matter if I'm the owner of this body or not."</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, then you have to... As soon as you decide that you are not this body, you are transcendental to this body, then you have to understand what is the transcendental nature and what is your business, what you should do. These things will come. At the present moment, because I identify me with this body, I am simply busy with this bodily concept of life. So as soon as you understand that "I am not this body," that is called brahma-bhūtaḥ stage, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am Brahman." That is the beginning of real knowledge.</p>
<p>Professor: (Spanish) That's the reason because I don't care what happens to this body, not because there is a difference between dog and man or anything.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: No, even if you care, who cares for you? It will go by nature's way.</p>
<p>Professor: Right.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That we say. That we say. Now I have got this now nice body, and nature may offer something not very desirable body. Then what you will do?</p>
<p>Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He said it doesn't matter to him if he gets this body or that body, even a dog's body, because he will go on being himself.</p>
<p>Prabhupāda: That's all right. It doesn't matter him, but there are persons—he will shudder if he is said that "Next body you are going to become a dog." (laughter)</p>
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