Prajāpati: Many of these bogus groups, Prabhupāda, they claim that God is simply sound and light. So their meditation means seeing what they call ājñā-cakra, or point between eyebrows. They see there and they hear sounds, bells and thunder and flute, all within. And that is their meditation—hearing these sounds and seeing these lights.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but what do you gain by that?
Prajāpati: Supposedly they go to higher levels of existence, higher levels of consciousness. They change the sound, and the colors change as they . . .
Prabhupāda: But you cannot give up even smoking. You are in higher level of consciousness? So what is the proof that you are on the higher level of the consciousness? You cannot give up even ordinary things.
Jayatīrtha: They say that the scriptures aren't relevant in this age, that they don't make any difference in this age. They were for previous ages.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Jayatīrtha: Because Guru Maharaj-ji . . . because people cannot understand them, so Guru Maharaj-ji has simply come and making it very simple. He just makes them see the light, and then everything is simple. They don't have to do anything else.
Prabhupāda: And what is the benefit of seeing that light? He has to work, he has to search out for food. So what is the benefit by seeing the light? By seeing the light, has he become freed from all this botheration? Then what is the use of . . . what light you have seen?
Hṛdayānanda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).
Prabhupāda: Nivartate.
Prajāpati: They say the benefit of the light is that light is God. So when they see that light, that is God. So that is the benefit.
Prabhupāda: No. When we see light, we must know there is a source of light. Just like you are seeing the light, and the light is there; therefore there must be a source of the light. Unless you see Him, it is not perfect. Besides that, whether you have seen actually the light? What is the result of seeing that light? Do they explain? Suppose he has seen, I have not seen. So what is the difference between him and me?
Jayatīrtha: Unless the heart becomes purified, there is no sense in seeing any light. The heart has to become cleansed.
Hṛdayānanda: They say they will be happier than someone who has not seen the light. Their life will have more meaning.
Prabhupāda: So happier, they are becoming happier in so many other ways. What is the use of seeing the light?
Jayatīrtha: The pigs are also happy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Don't waste time by arguing with him. Neglect them. Do not talk of them.
Hṛdayānanda: Just like you say, Prabhupāda, they are actually defeating themselves.