Śyāmasundara: He says that a proposition is a picture of reality, a picture is a model of reality, a picture is a fact, the world is a totality of facts, the totality of true thoughts is a picture of the world.
Prabhupāda: Totality of not facts, that is a combination of gross matter, combination of gross and subtle matter. But this gross and subtle matter are projection of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Therefore totalities, they can be said Kṛṣṇa's external energy. And because Kṛṣṇa's energy, the energy and energetic, sometimes separated, sometimes mixed up; when separated, it manifests as something creation; when it is mixed up, the energy is no longer—it is merged into the energetic. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate cause.
Śyāmasundara: So the picture of reality is always changing? There are no set combinations?
Prabhupāda: Reality is not changing. The combination of different energies is changing. Reality is not changing.
Śyāmasundara: So true thoughts are not changing.
Prabhupāda: Reality is Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa has got unlimited number of energies, so the combination of different energy is making some manifestation and they are changing.
Śyāmasundara: He says that the totality of true thoughts is the picture of the world. So that picture does not change. The true thoughts do not change. So the world is not actually...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Conservation of energy. Everything rests ultimately in energy, and the energy ultimately rests in Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we say that everything ultimately rests in Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate cause, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate: (BG 10.8) "I am the cause of everything."
Śyāmasundara: He says that language is a picture of reality-language, words, a picture of reality. Just like we are speaking now. We are making pictures of reality as we speak with our language, with our words. Do these words have more content in themselves, or are they simply pictures of reality?
Prabhupāda: Language is a sort of expression to understand reality. Language is not reality.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that propositions or statements of ideas provide merely the form, telling us not what things are but how they are, but only how they are.
Prabhupāda: As well as what they are. If they are how they are, then what they are can also be explained.
Śyāmasundara: Just like if I describe this picture, I cannot really say what it is, but only how it is, what it is like, how it is.
Prabhupāda: What is the difference, "how it is" and "what it is"? What is the difference? It is simply jugglery of words. If I can say how it is, I can say what it is.
Śyāmasundara: He says what it is can only be experienced by the other senses—by seeing it, touching it.
Prabhupāda: In this sense, how it is, of course it can be explained like that. Ultimately, what it is means just like this gold, I said that how it is—a combination of other metals is gold, that is how it is. But what it is, that we have to research further. Just like how it is—a combination of copper, tin and mercury. Now, then what it is, we will have to make inquiry wherefrom this mercury comes, wherefrom this tin comes, wherefrom the copper comes. That is what it is. Therefore Vedic language it is sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma: "Everything is Brahman." That is what it is.
Śyāmasundara: (laughing) So we can explain how it is molded into different ways.
Prabhupāda: That is how it is, how it has become gold. But ultimately it is Brahman, sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman.
Śyāmasundara: He says that therefore most philosophical propositions are not false, but they are devoid of sensory facts, of sense content; therefore they are nonsensical.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is also nonsensical.
Śyāmasundara: He comes to that. (laughter) When a genuine proposition...
Prabhupāda: Then why is he after so much nonsensical things? Just to show he's...
Śyāmasundara: In order to find out what is a genuine proposition, he says that a genuine proposition presents the sense content and shows how things stand if it is true.
Prabhupāda: This is sense content, that sarvaṁ khalv, "Everything is Brahman." Everything is Brahman.
Śyāmasundara: But how does that give us sense content? What does that mean to my sense observations?
Devānanda: Isn't there a way... There is a way of perceiving that everything is Brahman. It can be perceived. We cannot perceive it now, but it can be perceived.
Prabhupāda: But the true knowledge, that ultimately Brahman is the ultimate cause. So Brahman has got different energies, and the multiple energies, they are combined together, and they manifest in different phases. Therefore Brahman is the cause of all causes. That is the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Brahman means wherefrom everything is emanating.
Śyāmasundara: But this statement, "Everything is Brahman," that seems to me devoid of sensory fact, of sense content. Therefore he says it is nonsensical, because I cannot experience it as a sensory experience. How does that have sense content, that statement?
Prabhupāda: That means whatever does not come through his senses, that is not true.
Śyāmasundara: No. But whatever cannot be experienced is not true.
Prabhupāda: Experience means by sense experience. That means whatever is not under direct perception, sense experience, that is false.
Śyāmasundara: Either direct or indirect. But how can I experience that statement that "Everything is Brahman"?
Prabhupāda: Indirect is there. Just like we accept that everything has got some cause. So I am a person; the cause is my person father, and his father is also person. Similarly, the ultimate father, the original father, although I have not seen, I cannot sense perceive, still, I must conclude that He is a person.
Śyāmasundara: But I think behind your statement "Everything is Brahman," there are also statements which show the person how to experience Brahman.
Prabhupāda: This is Brahman. Brahman means the greatest. Greatest.
Śyāmasundara: But when you say "Everything is Brahman," you are also willing to include another set of propositions which show how to experience Brahman, how one can experience this fact, "Everything is Brahman."
Prabhupāda: That is not very difficult. Just like this International Society. Originally I started, so in any center, I am there. I am there. My photograph is there, I am there, accepting, Bhaktivedanta Swami. So personally I am not there, but I still am there by my expansion of energy. So similarly, Kṛṣṇa is the original Brahman. Whatever we see, we perceive, experience, it's all Kṛṣṇa's expansion of energy. That's all.