Prabhupāda: And ignorance. If we give service in ignorance, without knowing what is wanted, that kind of service may lead us to become punished. So we must know what kind of service we shall give.
So real suffering of the society, human society, or any society you take, real suffering is because the living entity has forgotten God, so he is being punished in different way by the material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). So many ways. But everyone is being punished. At least, the three kind . . . why three kinds? That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, that this is also punishment, repetition of birth and death. This is also punishment.
Because we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). We are spirit soul; we are eternal. So our this constant change of body, birth and death, that is also punishment. Because nobody wants to die, because he is eternal. How he'll like to die? He wants to keep his eternal position, but he, because he's criminal . . . just like one man is condemned to die, murderer, so he has to die. But he wants to protect himself, placing himself in the court, "How to save? How to save?" So that is our natural tendency, that we do not want to die. Why? Because we are eternal. We have got the prerogative.
So if . . . anyone does not want to die. Anyone does not want to take birth even. Now we have forgotten. Otherwise, in the womb of the mother, everyone knows that we are kept in such a way, in a packed, compact water bag, without any facility to move, not only for one day, two day, but ten months. Medical science knows; everyone knows. And at that time there are worms in the womb of the mother, taking the advantage, delicate skin; they also bite. And he cannot make any protest. He moves sometimes. The child moves. These are the sufferings. But we do not take care. If I have to take birth again, then I have to go, again enter into the womb of the mother, and to develop my body and in such precarious condition, the body will develop.
So there is suffering. There is suffering of birth, and at the time of death there is suffering. And between birth and death, there is duration of life, there is disease, there is old age, and what to speak of other sufferings. That we may not mention. But at least these four sufferings are there. Therefore the best service is to save him from this suffering. That is the service.
Lord Brockway: Yes, two things—first, when I speak of service, I don't just mean individual goodness to others. I think the service to the world today means an understanding of the causes of war, of the causes of poverty. It means an intellectual analysis and seeking to end what are the causes of war and poverty and suffering and crime. And it isn't only individual goodness. It's a combination of a desire, which is good, with a knowledge of how to achieve it. That would be the first thing that I would say. And the second thing I would say is this, and this may surprise you: I would quite welcome death. I've no fear of it at all.
Prabhupāda: Because you are pure.
Lord Brockway: I, uh . . . (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: You are little advanced.
Lord Brockway: I would not want death through suffering. I should love to go to sleep and die. When I have an operation, I would like to die under the anesthetic. It would be quite beautiful. And I say that, though I have no picture in my mind at all of what would happen after death or if anything happens. I love the description which was given by my friend Bertrand Russell, that life is like being born in a spring on the hillside, and the stream becoming a river . . .
(break)
Prabhupāda: . . . so many tossings. That is the problem of life. It is not that it begins and goes. Going to the end, oh, we have to face so many tossings. That is the problem of life.
Lord Brockway: Yes, and I acknowledge I don't know. And I am personally satisfied with trying to do what I can while I'm living in this life for the betterment of mankind. And I believe that's the best preparation for any future life, if there is a future life.
Prabhupāda: Well, there is future life, undoubtedly. It is not the question . . . just like you say you remember your childhood days. You were playing with Indian children in Berampur.
Lord Brockway: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But that body is no longer there; your childhood body, that is not existing. Now you are existing in a different body. So you were existing, that's a fact, because you remember. But that body's not existing. Similarly, when this body will not exist, you'll exist. This is natural conclusion. Your that childhood body is no longer existing. Your youthhood body is no longer existing. That's a fact. And it is also a fact that you had such and such body. Therefore you, as the soul, you are permanent, even changing so many types of bodies. Similarly, the conclusion should be when you give up this body, you'll be in another body.
Lord Brockway: Yes.