Varnasrama (Conv. 1970 - 1975)

Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya, everyone has got a specific duty. So one has to see that by his specific duty, entrusted with or discharging that duty, whether Kṛṣṇa is being satisfied. That's all. Therefore one has to accept a bona fide spiritual master to know whether Kṛṣṇa is being satisfied by his work. Who will certify? You cannot concoct, "Oh, I am doing for satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa." No, that is not possible. It must be accepted by the representative of Kṛṣṇa, "Yes, by your work, Kṛṣṇa is satisfied." Then it is all right.

Devotee: I didn't get any new members today. I went all over... I went over to McGill, and not very many teachers, professors there know about the temple, especially the chemistry professors. I don't think chemistry professors go too well with Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No. Every... You have to convince them that chemistry or philosophy or anything, without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, it is all useless. Svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate param. That verse I was explaining, that

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Test for... (pause) Oh, so many?

Govinda dasi: Earlier you said you wanted it.

Prabhupāda: Huh? So he is recording there?

Govinda dasi: Oh, I thought you wanted a dictaphone? If not, I can...

Devotee: It must be better if you recorded it, something I...

Prabhupāda: Hm? Hm? What is that?

Devotee: I think a tape recorder is better than a dictaphone because I think a tape recording is better.

Prabhupāda: Tape recording is going on?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You can sit down. So everyone is working. Never mind in whatever occupation one is engaged. That doesn't matter. But one has to test whether he is becoming successful. Because everyone wants success.

Prabhupāda: But this is a very scientific system. Why? It is created by Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). "I have created the four divisions of caste." It is not exactly caste; section, varṇa. So how you can stop? It is natural. So Bhāgavata recommends, Suta Gosvāmī is addressing, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. This system of sectional division, this is... "He is brāhmaṇa, he is kṣatriya, he is vaiśya, he is śūdra, he is brahmacārī, he is householder, he is vānaprastha, he is sannyāsī." Or sub-section. "He is potter, he is washerman, he is this and that." You may divide it or not, this section will be there in every society. So Bhāgavata says that "You may be situated in any section. It doesn't matter." Either you be a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa or a potter or a washerman or whatever you may be, it doesn't matter.

Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit. They have been educated. They have been trained in such a way that they don't like this. But this is their success. Bhāgavata says, saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ means sectional division. "My dear learned brāhmaṇas..." Because Suta Gosvāmī was speaking to very learned assembly of brāhmaṇas Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Prabhupāda: So success of life is to please Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Lord, by one's occupational duty. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitena dharmena. Svanuṣṭhitena dharmena saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). One should try to satisfy the Absolute Truth, Personality of Godhead. And Lord Caitanya also recommends that "You remain in your occupation. That doesn't matter. But you submissively try to hear." So we are giving this chance to the people "Please come and hear." But they are not prepared even for that thing. The age is so strong, the Kali-yuga, that it will dictate. Māyā will dictate, "Why you go there? What is there?" But actually, those who have come to us, those who are following, they are so much changed. That is a fact.

1970 Conversations and Morning Walks

Prabhupāda: Anyone, even if he is born in a brāhmaṇa family, the natural birth is considered as śūdra. But if there is garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, then he's accepted as born brāhmaṇa, born brāhmaṇa. Still, one is born brāhmaṇa, he has to undergo the saṁskāras. So our, this... Now it is known as Hindu society although the "Hindu" word is given by the Mohammedans. It is called sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama society, who very strictly follow the four divisions, social divisions of varṇa—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—and four divisions of spiritual life—brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So our, the Vedic system is called varṇāśrama. Varṇa means the social order. Āśrama means spiritual division. Therefore those who are following strictly the Vedic principle, that family life is called gṛhastha āśrama. Āśrama. Whenever you add this word āśrama there is spiritual significance. So all the division-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa—they are known as āśrama.

Room Conversation -- December 12, 1970, Indore:

Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Guest: He has ordered for duty, "You must do whatever you are doing."

Prabhupāda: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a kṣatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Varṇa and āśrama. There are different kinds of duties. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭha varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13).

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: These Mohammedans, they pronounce "S" as "H." "Hindus," "Hindus." Instead of "Sindus," they made it "Hindus." So Hindu is a term which is not found in the Sanskrit dictionary.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But it has come into use. Real, I mean to say, cultural institution is called varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatri, vaiśya, śūdra—these four varṇas—and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. So according to Vedic concept of life, unless people take to this system or institution, institute of varṇa and āśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas, actually he does not become a civilized human being. This... One has to take this process, four divisions of varṇas and four..., four divisions of social order and four divisions of spiritual order. That is called varṇāśrama. So India's culture is based on these four, eight system, varṇa and āśrama.

Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: But you know what is interesting to... It is the opinion of some European and old, old Russian scholars, this varṇāśrama system...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky:...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... (break)...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information.

Prabhupāda: But so far... So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.

Prof. Kotovsky: According to so many... You have just told that in any society there are four divisions, but the case is not so easy to distinguish. For instance, one can group, one can group, group together, different social classes and professional groups into four divisions in any society. There's no difficulty. Only difficulty, for instance, in socialist society of our country and a socialist society how can you distinguish productive group and workers?

Prabhupāda: Just like you belong to the intelligent class of men.

Prof. Kotovsky: Intelligent, yes, so...

Prabhupāda: So this is a division.

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, intelligent class, for instance, brāhmaṇas, if you can put together also with intelligentsia under the brāhmaṇas...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.

Prof. Kotovsky: Generally it seems to me that this old varṇāśrama system to some extent practiced the nature of division of labor in ancient society. So now division of labor among people in any society is much more complicated and sophisticated. So it would be very...

Prabhupāda: Not complicated.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because...

Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa. Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere brāhmaṇas, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a brāhmaṇa.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: And this, the actual Hindu law which was used by Hindus, they're quite different from original Manu-smṛti.

Prabhupāda: No, they have now made changes. Just like our late Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. He made some Hindu code. He introduced in that Hindu code the right of divorcing husband and wife. But these were not in Manu-saṁhitā. And, of course, they are changing. If you like, you can change. But the social order also not exactly the same as it was before.

Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, yes.

Prabhupāda: And so many things. So they're changing. But before this modern age the whole Hindu society was being governed by Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti, yeah.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: So far we are concerned, we are sannyāsī, but you are a professor. If there is some emergency, you cannot go to beg. But I am a sannyāsī. I can tell you that I am in difficulty. That is the system. So we have got four orders. Just like he's brahmacārī, and he's gṛhastha. He has got his wife, children. So he's a gṛhastha. He's a brahmacārī. Similarly, there is sannyāsī. So that is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching. It doesn't matter whether one is a gṛhastha, householder, or renounced order or a brahmacārī or a brāhmaṇa or śūdra. It doesn't matter. If anyone understands the science of Kṛṣṇa, he becomes the spiritual master. The exact word is, in Bengali, kiba vipra kiba śūdra nyāsi kene nāya... Do you understand little Bengali?

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...foundation of all the varṇas.

Prabhupāda: You are not speaking correctly. I beg... We beg... With great respect I beg to submit, you are, that you are not speaking correctly. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra is created by Me according to quality and work." There is no mention of birth. There is no mention of birth.

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Immediately. Immediately.

Reporter: How, sir?

Prabhupāda: Huh? That you have to take it.

Reporter: The condition is to follow the...

Prabhupāda: Just like Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: (BG 4.13) "These four varṇas—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—it is created by Me." But you are trying to kill it. Why? If you try to kill Kṛṣṇa's program, then how you will be happy?

Interview with Reporters -- November 10, 1971, New Delhi:

Prabhupāda: Maybe your Hinduism. You lick up your Hinduism. But we are creating real brāhmaṇa all over the world.

Reporter: I can see. What Lord Kṛṣṇa has stated, sir, that "I have created these four castes of āśrama..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: And I as myself, just, as not somebody told me, just my...

Prabhupāda: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Not by birth. Kṛṣṇa never says...

Reporter: (indistinct)

Prabhupāda: No, no. These four castes... Not caste. We say caste, but varṇāśrama varṇa. Varṇa. Anyway, it is division. That division, vibhāga, the exact word is "division," not "caste." How you can say caste, it is not there, difference? Division, these four divisions are there. So these divisions are not made by birth. Just like if you are a lawyer. So in the society there are lawyers, engineers, medical men, they are divisions. But these lawyers, medical men or engineers, they are not born as engineer or as lawyer. That is mistake. Anyone who is qualified by the real knowledge, he is a lawyer. Not by birth. Suppose a lawyer's son, a big, big lawyer's son, does it mean that he's lawyer?

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.

Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: Caturthaḥ(?).

Prabhupāda: Caturthaḥ(?) platform. And that is possible by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says,

māṁ ca (yo) 'vyabhicāreṇa

bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate

sa guṇān samatītya etān

brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

(BG 14.26)

So two sides we are trying, to define the natural division of human society. The intelligent class, the administrator class, the productive class, and the worker class. There is natural division. You cannot say that everywhere simply there are intelligent class of men. No. Because we are infected with the three kinds of the material modes. You cannot expect all men are on the same level. That is not possible.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: I went to Moscow. They have got a worker class and they have got a manager class, manager class. They cannot do without it. It must be there. Someone must be their manager. So this division of the society... Just like natural division, one can study by his own body. This body has got four divisions—the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. All of them are important in cooperation. But the hand cannot do the work of the leg, nor the leg can do the work of the head.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: But they are all four in the same body, Swamiji...

Prabhupāda: That is wanted.

Dr. Singh: That is what is wanted.

Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa. Either you may be brāhmaṇa or either you may be kṣatriya, either you may be vaiśya or śūdra, it doesn't matter. But you try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa, that is your perfection. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Vibhāgaśaḥ is accepted, varna āśrama. Svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got particular duty to perform. Saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). You remain kṣatriya, you remain brāhmaṇa, you remain śūdra, it doesn't matter. But try to satisfy Kṛṣṇa by your activities. That is wanted.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to the śūdras. So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power? We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested... Formality. So they put their manifesto before the election, that we shall serve you in this way and that way. But because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power...

Talk with Bob Cohen -- February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles.

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Dai Nippon representative: Priesthood. Priesthood. (Japanese) It has somewhat changed now.

Prabhupāda: We are all priests because we are preaching. All my students and myself, we are preaching. We are on the priestly level. So our philosophy is ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Everyone has got some professional or occupational duty. Just like you are printer. We are preachers. Somebody is something else. Everyone has got different occupational duty. So our philosophy is that it doesn't matter what business you are doing, but see that your life is successful. That is our philosophy. And how our life can become successful? Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). If you can preach Lord Buddha or Kṛṣṇa, it doesn't matter. I have already explained Lord Buddha is expansion of Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Dai Nippon -- April 22, 1972, Tokyo:

Prabhupāda: But in our India... Of course, Lord Buddha was kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas were allowed to eat meat by hunting.

Dai Nippon representative: Hunting.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because king—the kṣatriya means royal order-they, sometimes they had to kill somebody. If somebody is criminal, "Cut off his head." So in order to become powerful in cutting head, so they had to practice hunting. Yes. This hunting was allowed to the kṣatriyas. There are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Four divisions means intelligent class, administrative class, mercantile class, and laborer class. So these kṣatriyas, they are royal order, giving protection to the citizens. And the brāhmaṇas giving good advice to the royal order. And the mercantile class, they work under the regulation of the royal order. And the worker class, they give simply service.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: The Padma Purāṇa recommends: somehow or other always think of Viṣṇu, without forgetting Him under any circumstances. Actually this is the most basic of all regulative principles. For, when there is an order from a superior about doing something, there is simultaneously a prohibition. So when the order is that one should always remember Kṛṣṇa, the prohibition is that one should never forget Him. Within this simple order and prohibition, all regulative principles are found complete.

"This regulative principle is applicable to all varṇas and āśramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varṇas, namely the brāhmaṇas (priests and intellectuals), the kṣatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaiśyas (businessmen and farmers) and the śūdras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard āśramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), gṛhastha (householder), vānaprastha (retired) and sannyāsa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacārīs (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginner—a brahmacārī—or if one is very advanced—a sannyāsī. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: The injunctions of rules and regulations and the resultant reactions are mentioned in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Fifth Chapter, first and second verses. Camasa Muni, one of the nine sages who came to instruct King Nimi, addressed the King and said, 'The four social orders, namely the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras, have come out of the different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord as follows: the brāhmaṇas have come out from the head, the kṣatriyas have come out from the arms, the vaiśyas have come out from the waist, and the śūdras have come out from the legs. Similarly, the sannyāsīs have come out from the head, the vānaprasthas from the arms, the gṛhasthas from the waist and the brahmacārīs from the legs.'

"These different orders of society and grades of spiritual advancement are conceived in terms of qualification. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four social orders and the four spiritual orders are created by the Lord Himself, in terms of different individual qualities. As the different parts of the body have different types of activities, so the social orders and spiritual orders also have different types of activities in terms of their qualification and position. The target of these activities, however, is always the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): Not all the brāhmaṇas who are supposed to be brāhmaṇas.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We... Our... This philosophy, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, according to the Bhagavad-gītā and Bhāgavata, we don't accept brāhmaṇa by birth. We accept brāhmaṇa by quality. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Quality and work.

Guest (2): What are your qualifications for a śūdra?

Prabhupāda: Śūdra is serving others. Get some salary and be satisfied. That's all. He has no more culture. That is śūdra. He cannot live independently. Anyone who serves others for his livelihood, he's a śūdra.

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Conversation with Bajaj and Bhusan -- September 11, 1972, Arlington, Texas, At Their Home:

You may be industrial administrator, you may be engineer, you may be something else, but you make your profession perfect. And that perfection is achieved by satisfying the Supreme Personality of Godhead by your profession.

Guest (2): But you were saying about brāhmaṇas, so I...

Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas means qualified brāhmaṇas. When you say engineer, that means qualified engineer, not born engineer. Engineer is not born. "Because his father is engineer, he is engineer." And what is this? You become engineer. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be qualification and work; otherwise what kind of brāhmaṇa? (Hindi) These are all milk preparation. We can make so many hundreds and thousands of milk preparation. Instead of cutting the throat of the cows, why don't you use her milk? Dallas is a great place for cutting the throat of cows?

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 26, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Formerly the kings, they were regularly supervising that their citizens were properly executing religious culture. That was government's duty. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So now government is callous about religion. I'm very glad to know that your government has left some department to supervise. What is your function in this department?

Room Conversation with Indonesian Scholar -- February 27, 1973, Jakarta:

Scholar: But by using threads, attributes of Hindu religion...

Prabhupāda: No, actually... Hindu, the word is not to be found in our Vedic scripture. It is the name given by the Mohammedans. So that is going on. Actually it is called varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas, four āśrama. The four varṇas, the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas-brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Combined together it is called varṇāśrama. So unless the human being follows this varṇāśrama principle he's not a human being. He's animal, because animal has no varṇa, no āśrama. The human society must be divided. Then, just like in this body there are four divisions—the head division, the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division—all these are required for complete body. Although, by comparative study, head is the most important department, but still the leg is not... that we don't require leg. Leg is also required.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Either from the chemical department or physical department or electrical department. Any department. It doesn't matter. Through that department you go to the ultimate center. Just like here is center. And there are so many spokes. So many spokes. So whichever spoke you may be, come to the center. That is your perfection. The spokes may be of different direction. Like that. But center is Kṛṣṇa. The energy, central energy is Kṛṣṇa. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). And these, these living entities, they're flying. They have got intelligence.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (7): Any business based on ethic is good.

Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter, what business. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā, by his own business... Just like Arjuna's business was fighting. He was kṣatriya. So sva-karmaṇā, by his fighting business, he served Kṛṣṇa. He fought for Kṛṣṇa. So he became successful. So any business, it doesn't matter. There is another verse in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. The Sūta Gosvāmī said—all the meeting was being held by learned scholars and brāhmaṇas in Naimiṣāraṇya—so he said, ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. You are all very first-class brāhmaṇas. So this is the verdict. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. According to the division of varṇa and āśrama. Four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. And four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān... (CC Madhya 8.58). When a human being comes to these institutional activities, varṇa and āśrama, at that time he is recognized as human being. Varṇāśramācāravatāṁ puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate... But that is the beginning of Viṣṇu worship. So Sūta Gosvāmī said, varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. You may be a brāhmaṇa. You may be a kṣatriya. You may be a vaiśya. You may be a śūdra. You may be a brahmacārī. You may be a gṛhastha. You may be a vānaprastha or sannyāsa. It doesn't matter. These divisions will go on. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama... Varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ must be there, division. Vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (SB 1.2.13). Simply you have to see whether by executing your particular type of business you are pleasing the Supreme Lord. That's all.

Room Conversation with Indian Guests -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (9): There won't be any place for me to go now.

Prabhupāda: We have got such a big house. We welcome all. Yes, bad habit is... Habit is second nature sometimes, but one should be determined. Therefore we have got four āśramas: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Whichever is suitable. Just like here. He's gṛhastha. His wife, children, all are devotees. So he doesn't require to become a sannyāsī.

Room Conversation with Educationists -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (1) (young British woman): What was the meaning in that?

Prabhupāda: Ṭhākura, they belong to kṣatriya class. Brāhmaṇa... According to Vedic conception, there are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra. So next to brāhmaṇa is the kṣatriya. So this Ṭhākura title is given to the kṣatriyas, administrator class. Yes. (pause, Prabhupāda chants japa softly) So in your library you are keeping our books? No. All books?

Room Conversation with Indian Guests and Devotees -- July 11, 1973, London:

Guest (2): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi for some time, a few English words) (break) (Hindi for some time) (break) When the destiny of the people are to be controlled, there must be very, very intelligent man. That is Vedic civilization. There is standard aims and objects on which the people should be trained up. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. Viṣṇur ārādhanam. Worshiping Viṣṇu. This is the ultimate aim. So the whole society is divided into brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa—departmental—and they are trained up. But the aim is viṣṇur ārādhanam. But they have no idea at the present moment. Viṣṇur ārādhanam, he has no knowledge. But the civilization begins on this point.

Room Conversation with Dr. Arnold Toynbee, Famous Historian, at his home or office -- July 22, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: The aim of human society should be God realization. That is the distinction between an animal and a human being.

Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So Bhagavad-gītā recommends that the whole society should be divided into four divisions: the brāhmaṇa, or the most intellectual persons, the kṣatriyas, the administrators, the vaiśyas, the mercantile agriculturists, and the śūdras, ordinary men, laborer or worker. Because this material world is conducted by three modes of nature, goodness, passion and ignorance, so according to the quality of the person, he should be listed in different categories. And it is the duty of the state to see that all these categories, divisions, they are working nicely.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Today's no... I'm speaking... Today's good and tomorrow is bad, that is not.

Reporter: Yeah, yeah.

Prabhupāda: I'm speaking the principle. The king must be representative of God. Therefore we offer so much honor to the King. Exactly like God. Why? Because King is supposed to be representative of God. Our Vedic conception is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. This catur-varṇa. It is the king's duty, government's duty, to see that a person claiming to be brāhmaṇa, whether he's acting as a brāhmaṇa. Nowadays that... Such supervision is not there. Therefore a man acting as śūdra, but he's claiming to be brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Reporter from Researchers Magazine -- July 24, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Jñānam means you must know things theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge. That is, jñānam means theoretical knowledge. And vijñānam means practical knowledge. Jñānaṁ vijñānam. When your knowledge is applied practically in life, just like yajñārthāt karmaṇo 'nyatra. This knowledge is theoretical, that one has to work only for yajña. Yajñād bhavati (indistinct). This things are there. So everyone should act for yajña. Yajñeśa. In the Viṣṇu Purāṇa it is said, varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān, viṣṇur ārādhyate (CC Madhya 8.58). If you act according to varṇāśrama, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, never mind, whatever you are. Everything is meant for pleasing the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate.

Reporter: Hm.

Prabhupāda: Nānyat tat-toṣa-kāraṇam. So in order to satisfy Him, there is no other way than to act according to the tenets of varṇāśrama. This is the beginning of civilization. Without accepting this division of varṇāśrama, that is animal society, everything is chaos.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men.

Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily...

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God.

Mother: You should be self-supporting in that way.

Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question?

Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.

Mother: ...and still be with God.

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?

Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.

Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?

Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. (break) Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: So that means people have become so dull in spite of so-called education.

Dr. Inger: That is true.

Prabhupāda: That's, that's my point.

Dr. Inger: Oh yes. Education is merely book knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Mūḍhā.

Dr. Inger: ...of substance given, read, prepared.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Dr. Inger: They don't go to the basic.

Prabhupāda: Śrama eva hi kevalam. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as simply wasting time. That's all.

dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ puṁsāṁ

viṣvaksena-kathāsu yaḥ

notpādayed ratiṁ yadi

śrama eva hi kevalam

(SB 1.2.8)

Śrama eva hi kevalam. Everyone is acting. Dharmaḥ svanuṣṭhithaḥ. According to Vedic civilization, there are four divisions of men. brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, and further, spiritual divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. So everyone has got some duty according to his position. So Bhāgavata says that even a person executes his duty very perfectly, but if he does not awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then all that he has done is simply a waste of time. So our point is that the UNESCO, United Nations, UNO, they're simply wasting their time.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Ambassador: Because there is a... The definition of brāhmaṇa, of course, is made by Buddha's said: (Sanskrit )

Prabhupāda: No, in Bhagavad-gītā it is said: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). And Bhāgavata says,

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ

puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

(SB 7.11.35)

These are clear indications that brāhmaṇa is not from particular family. And Kṛṣṇa says, another place,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya

ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ

striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās

te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ

(BG 9.32)

Everyone, Kṛṣṇa is open for everyone. Kṛṣṇa does not say that only... He says that kiṁ punar brāhmaṇāḥ puṇyāḥ. Everyone is accepted. Why not the brāhmaṇas? But te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Those who are not even born in brāhmaṇa family... Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says, kibā vipra kiba śūdra...

Room Conversation -- September 18, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So in Kṛṣṇa's business, there is no question of renouncement.

Guest (3): No, but that is not a specific thing. But if somebody's carrying out a particular duty, does he have to renounce that...

Prabhupāda: That particular duty, you cannot manufacture. That particular duty is, as Kṛṣṇa says, if you cannot... Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ... (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Belly must work for supplying food, energy. And leg must work for carrying the body. So similarly the society must be divided: the brain of the society, the arms of the society, the belly of the society and the legs of the society. That will make perfection. The brain will give direction That is the brāhmaṇas. The arms will give protection. That is the kṣatriya. And the belly will give energy, food, that is vaiśya. And the legs will carry the body. That is śūdra. This is... Whole society should be divided into four divisions, the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, the vaiśyas and the śūdras. And they should work cooperatively for the total benefit of the body. This is perfect life. Not that everyone should be brain. Then who will carry me? Just like in your bank, the manager is the brain. The secretaries and assistants are the hands, clerks. And ordinary worker, they are legs. Anywhere you go, you must find out these four divisions. Therefore the human society must be divided into four divisions. But there is no such plan. Now the plan is that everyone is being educated to learn technology, how to... In your country, especially. How to make economic development. So they have no brain. Therefore there are hippies. There is no brain actually.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Brahmānanda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa means quality, karma means the work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like he is manager. He has got the qualification of manager and he is working as manager. Then he is a manager. Even if he has got the quality, if he does not work, he is not a manager. Suppose he has got the qualities, but he does not work, he sits at home, nobody will call him bank manager. He must have the qualities and he must work. Then he is. So here is guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. A brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra must have the requisite quality.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: So if the brāhmaṇa and the śūdra combine together, work, then both their lives will be perfect. Here you cannot expect everyone as brāhmaṇa, in this material world. That is not possible. Because in the material world three qualities are working. So one may be brāhmaṇa, another may be kṣatriya, another may be vaiśya, another may... So they should cooperate. Then everyone's life will be perfect. That is the program. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are creating brāhmaṇas. So others, they should cooperate. Then their life will be also perfect. Just like these people are preaching that "You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and refrain from sinful activities." So if people take advice from these men, simple thing... Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is not difficult.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: That is not brāhmaṇa. How can that be brāhmaṇa? That is a śūdra, caṇḍāla. Then what is the difference between a.... But they are claiming brāhmaṇa by birth. That is not allowed in the śāstra.

Guest: No, no.

Prabhupāda: It is not allowed.

Guest: It is by our actions and faults(?).

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is said by Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Never says birth. Guṇa-karma, quality and karma.

Guest: One thing more I can do here for all the devotees...(break)

Prabhupāda: ...Sanskrit teaching in our books.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're śūdra. You're not even a brāhmaṇa. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guṇa, karma, superiority means guṇa, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But I think tradition must be still...

Prabhupāda: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The reference is given to the quality, guṇa, and karma, and action. How you can simply say that because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high-court judge, therefore I am high-court judge. Is that very good logic? How you became superior? You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work.

Morning Walk -- December 8, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...daiva-varṇāśrama. My Guru Mahārāja wanted this that there be regular varṇāśrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that brāhmaṇas are born there. No. No, you are all brāhmaṇas. Otherwise how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that?

Satsvarūpa: If I go to some city and hold a program and advertise but only, say, four or five people come and yet they're interested, very interested-should that be considered successful or unsuccessful?

Prabhupāda: It is successful. If one man comes to hear, that is successful. But we have to see that, after spending so much money...

Morning Walk -- December 12, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Why not? Kṛṣṇa was in politics. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means all-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural, everything. It is not one-sided. They take it as... They do not know. Therefore they are thinking it is a religious movement. No, it is all-including, all-including, all-pervasive.

Umāpati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country.

Prabhupāda: Yes, this is... We have already separated. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. That is already separated.

Umāpati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics.

Prabhupāda: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics?

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. No, that's all right. One must... Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was a fighter. His dharma was to fight.

Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Fighter... I am wrongly placed in the medical profession. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: No. Dharma means one's sva-kar... Just like varṇāśrama-dharma.

Dr. Patel: That is the real dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes. According to varṇa and āśrama. That is called varṇāśrama-dharma.

Dr. Patel: The greatest gift to the humanity is varṇāśrama-dharma by the ancient culture of India.

Prabhupāda: No, it is given by God.

Dr. Patel: Whatever it is... But I mean, that is the greatest gift.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Varṇāśrama-dharma. And I don't know why people don't follow it.

Prabhupāda: But there is no guidance. There is no guidance.

Dr. Patel: Even imperceptibly one āśrama may be following, is followed by western countries. They have got all the (indistinct) though they are not putting on (indistinct) and all. (Hindi) But presently this is, we are living in Kali-yuga.

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Varṇāśrama-dharma is there, but it is not organized. Varṇa... Because it is made by God, mayā sṛṣṭam, it cannot be violated. So... But it (is) in a perverted way. Therefore we are suffering.

Dr. Patel: But in old days, I think, this varṇāśrama-dharma was followed...

Prabhupāda: Strictly.

Dr. Patel: I am reading the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therein so many princes turned into brāhmaṇas, and so many brāhmaṇas turned into daityas.

Prabhupāda: But that is...

Dr. Patel: It was by action.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Guṇa, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Not by birth. Guṇa-karma. Just like you are kṣatriya, but because you have acquired the qualification of medical man and you are working as a medical man, therefore you are medical man. Nobody asked you, "You are a kṣatriya or a brāhmaṇa." You are a medical man.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Bhagavān: Kṣatriyas used to take sannyāsa too?

Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas... Some of them. Not all.

Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Guru dāsa: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he'll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktāhāra-vihārasya yogo bhavati duḥkha-hā. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varṇāśrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

Hṛdayānanda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupāda: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was acting as a kṣatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither kṣatriya nor, nor brāhmaṇa. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaiśya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kṣatriya. He was marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kṣatriya, sometimes as vaiśya, but He's neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa...

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.

Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.

Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?

Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?

Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.

Hṛdayānanda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa? Such as say...

Prabhupāda: No.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: Say, for example, someone was a, a kṣatriya by inclination, or a...?

Prabhupāda: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varṇāśrama college is required. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Hṛdayānanda: But Prabhupāda, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. Eh?

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all.

Satsvarūpa: What would he learn at the school, though?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry. Mūrkhāyopadeśo hi prakopayati na śamayati (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na śamayati. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānām (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payaḥ pānaṁ bhujaṅgānāṁ kevalaṁ viṣa-vardhanam. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school required.

Hṛdayānanda: So Prabhupāda, in this varṇāśrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...?

Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. History, we simply read Mahābhārata, history of the great men, Pāṇḍavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Study the history of Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way?

Hṛdayānanda: Jaya. Yes. And so...

Prabhupāda: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history.

Hṛdayānanda: So in our varṇāśrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupāda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas... Just like kṣatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Satsvarūpa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarūpa: So they don't attend varṇāśrama college.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Varṇāśrama college especially meant for the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya and vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-śūdra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.

Hṛdayānanda: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hṛdayānanda: Not necessary. So in this varṇāśrama college there would be two divisions, varṇa and āśr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

Hṛdayānanda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varṇas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varṇas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇāśrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varṇa and āśrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇāśrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā sṛṣṭam. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work?

Viṣṇujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method-varṇāśrama.

Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you've made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is... This is not good.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda...

Prabhupāda: You should remain always sannyāsī within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama; we are above varṇāśrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this program must be done.

Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brāhmaṇas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: The vaiśya students will produce the food.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varṇāśrama college, or...?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. They should go.

Hṛdayānanda: We'll start it right away.

Prabhupāda: Varṇāśrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.

Hṛdayānanda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years.

Hṛdayānanda: They can start at ten to twelve?

Prabhupāda: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varṇāśrama college.

Viṣṇujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Organize that.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Parivrājakācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Parivrājakācārya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?

Prabhupāda: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrājakācārya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: These preliminary necessities of life, āhāra-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, there must be sufficient arrangement for these preliminary necessities of life. One must eat sumptuously. Not over-eating, indulgence. No. But he must have sufficient food to keep up the health. Similarly, he must have place to sleep. We, we are prepared to offer everything. And be Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is our mission. Not by eating and sleeping, become rogues and thieves and rascals. That we will not allow. That is varṇāśrama-dharma. (Hindi conversation for a few sentences) Why unemployment? There is no scarcity (of) water. Just have a big well. Electricity pump water. Oh, immediately, it will be all green. Immediately. (Hindi for a while) Jayo! Hare Kṛṣṇa! (break) ...all round, for the benefit of the human society. You'll be honored everywhere. Everywhere, any part of the world. And automatically these bogus avatāra, incarnations, God, and yogis and swamis will be all doomed. You see? These rascal society, avatāra, "Bhagavān," incarnations, yogis, these rascals will be doomed.

Morning Walk -- March 24, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Karmaṇā abhyarcya.

Prabhupāda: Karma, karmaṇā, by your work. Just like you are working as a medical practitioner. So you earn lakhs of rupees. Give to Kṛṣṇa. That is tam abhyarcya. Then you become perfect. That is also confirmed in Bhāgavata. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ. We have already explained that our karma, according to varṇa and āśrama... Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ. Everyone is working according to varṇa and āśrama. So svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya. Anyone who is serving according to his dharma, an engineer, a doctor, or somebody else, according to his occupational duty he is serving. But he has to see, svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate. It is Gītā. And it is said, svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saṁsiddhiḥ, perfection. What is that? Hari-toṣaṇam. We have to see whether Kṛṣṇa is satisfied.

Morning Walk -- March 25, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is no more śūdra or brāhmaṇa. In the material world, even if you become a brāhmaṇa, that is not a very good position. That is māyā: "I am brāhmaṇa."

Dr. Patel: But a sannyāsīs are also from the varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu has denied: "I am not a sannyāsī, I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya, none of these." He said, gopī-bhartuḥ pada-kamalayor dāsa-dāsānudāsaḥ (CC Madhya 13.80). "I am the servant of the servant of Gopī-bhartuḥ." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the, engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya... Yes.

Morning Walk -- March 29, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...to go and worship any other demigod. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ (BG 7.20). They are not going to worship. They can offer respect to the demigods, but that is not they're going to worship. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says mām ekam.

Dr. Patel: Śaraṇaṁ vraja.

Prabhupāda: We are simply...

Dr. Patel: We say the same thing in our...

Prabhupāda: Mām ekam. Only Kṛṣṇa.

Dr. Patel: So āśrama varṇāśrama dharmo... Cārvāka says.

Prabhupāda: Somebody is bigger than Kṛṣṇa. Then what you'll do?

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, they do not know. (break) They do not know it, that "We have to satisfy the Supreme Viṣṇu." So unless the society comes to this consciousness that "We have to satisfy the Supreme," that is not human society. Now, how they will understand? Therefore four divisions.

Dr. Patel: Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Prabhupāda: Guṇa... Yes. So if the four divisions work nicely, then it is healthy society. Otherwise it is not. If different parts of your body work nicely, then you are healthy.

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: ...that qualification, satya, always truthful. (break)

Girirāja: "...violent and they never claimed any false prestige. They were all bona fide brāhmaṇas, and there was no reason to think that their blessings would be useless."

Prabhupāda: (break) ...social divisions. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The other varṇas, they would give simply to the brāhmaṇas charity. And the brāhmaṇas were so advanced that simply by their blessing, they will get all benefit. So there must be a class of men who can actually benefit simply by blessing and the society must maintain them. This is real society. And everyone is śūdra, engaged in technology—then what benefit you will get? Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There must be a brahminical class, a kṣatriya class, a vaiśya class, a śūdra class. Not that all śūdras. Then what will be going on? That is the condition. Everyone is being educated as śūdra. Then what benefit you will get? That is the defect. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) Therefore there must be a brahminical class.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: Kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa is excessive lust and greediness. And sattva-guṇa, they are in knowledge. Therefore the society must be divided into four classes of men, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). There are three guṇas, and the sattva-guṇa, brāhmaṇa, a class of ideal men, must be there in the society so that people can follow them. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21). If there is no ideal men in the society, how they can be of good character? Therefore the brahminical class of men, I mean to say, in quality, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). There must be an ideal class of men, brāhmaṇa.

Press Conference -- April 18, 1974, Hyderabad:

Prabhupāda: What is this nonsense? God is so cheap? So they have been frustrated, and our people go and still more frustrate them by giving some cheating type of... But here Bhagavad-gītā is very simple. There is no need of great education. What is the difficulty to understand? If Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65), where is the difficulty? "You always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, offer My obeisances." Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam: (BG 4.13) "Divide the society in four classes of men." Annād bhavanti bhūtāni: (BG 3.14) "You just produce sufficient foodgrain and eat sufficiently. Be strong. Perform yajña." Where is the difficulty to understand Bhagavad-gītā?

Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras.

Prabhupāda: So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all. So if the society does not accept the proposition of Kṛṣṇa, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), they will suffer because the God consciousness will be lost. It is already lost. It may not be that everyone is God conscious, but a section... Just like it may not be that everybody is a physician, but a physician must remain there, must be there so that when one is difficulty by disease, the physician may help him. Similarly, if in the society the brāhmaṇa class and above, post-graduate of brāhmaṇa class, Vaiṣṇava, is not there, then the whole society will spoil .

Pañcadraviḍa: How do you teach a varṇāśrama college? In varṇāśrama college if somebody comes in... They say, "I want to be kṣatriya" or "I want to be vaiśya." Is it like that?

Prabhupāda: No, that will be tested by the teachers, what for he is fit. He will be test by the guru.

Pañcadraviḍa: Who will teach him to be a kṣatriya or who will teach him to be a vaiśya?

Prabhupāda: A kṣatriya, a brāhmaṇa. Just like if you want to learn music, you have to go to a musician.

Pañcadraviḍa: So where will we get kṣatriyas and...?

Prabhupāda: That is in the śāstra. Anyone can learn it. Just like if you want to be doctor, so you must have this qualification. Similarly, these things are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Kṣatriya means if there is fight, he must go forward first of all, risking his life. That is kṣatriya.

Morning Walk -- April 23, 1974, Hyderabad:

Nitāi: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.

Prabhupāda: Where he was?

Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...

Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.

Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.

Akṣayānanda: No. One may come out of a thousand.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to remain in degradation, and they will protest again. Therefore to save the degradation, this cātur-varṇyam must be established. That I... The ideal class. People will follow, "Oh, here is the ideal class." So we are trying to make an ideal class of Kṛṣṇa conscious people. And if you treat yourself as degraded, then who will care for you? You should remain an ideal class. People will follow gradually.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: We are touring all over the world. It is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful, self-controlled, mind and the senses, and then tolerant, very simple life, full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body, there are four divisions. The head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People, advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another. If you are passing on in the street, the gentleman's house there is a signboard, "Beware of the dogs. Don't come in," because he cannot believe anyone. You go to the airport, any high-class standard man. They search out the pocket. So nobody is believable. So this is the result of modern education. You cannot find out an ideal character man.

Morning Walk -- May 28, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: Yes, and they will also give. Kṛṣṇa becomes the proprietor. Everyone is satisfied.

Dhanañjaya: Jaya. This is varṇāśrama institution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is above varṇāśrama. It is above varṇāśrama. Varṇāśrama there is give and take, but here there is no give and... Here is simply give, no take. That is above varṇāśrama.

Dhanañjaya: So the workers are giving to the devotees and the devotees are giving to Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They become devotee, they will give to Kṛṣṇa. You also become devotees. Not that they become devotee and you exploit them very nicely. That is not.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: No. My point was, point is that... Because one is fourth-class, therefore we are not interested in that—it is not my point. My point is that there are four classes of men: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. And our point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for taking care of all classes of men. Although by natural division there are four classes of men, first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, but the example we generally give, just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division, but all of them meant for keeping the body fit. And body is meant for giving supply to everyone of them. But if you comparatively make division, the head comes the first division, the arms comes the second division, the belly comes the third division, and the legs comes the fourth division. So we should organize in such a way that all the classes of men in the society be happy, not that we simply take care of the head. The same example: In your body it is not your business just simply take care of the head or the legs. No. All these different divisions of your body, you take care. That is healthy body. When your brain is working nicely, when your arms are working nicely, your abdomen is working nicely and legs are working nicely, then you are fit. If you simply take care of the legs, not of the brain, that is not a good healthy body.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Nitāi:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness, these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates)

Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā.

Yogeśvara: He says, "Does this Kṛṣṇa consciousness message apply as well to the outcastes?"

Prabhupāda: Outcaste? There are four castes only.

Swiss Man (1): But there are the outcastes...

Yogeśvara: Do you mean the untouchables?

Prabhupāda: Outcaste means those who are less than the śūdras. They are called pañcamas. These are four divisions: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. Śūdra means laborer class but they are also obedient to the other three classes. And less than that, they have been described as caṇḍālas, pañcamas, or untouchable as you say. But for us, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no such distinction. Anyone can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. The pañcamas, the fifth class men are called caṇḍālas. Caṇḍāla means untouchable.

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: That is success. Their scientific knowledge will be successful when by scientific knowledge they prove that God is the origin of the universe. That is success. That is... Another verse you can read. Idaṁ hi puṁsas... No. That...

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Room Conversation with Robert Gouiran, Nuclear Physicist from European Center for Nuclear Research -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Find out the verse.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "O best amongst the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord Hari."

Prabhupāda: That's it. You may be scientist, you may be something else, but if you try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by your occupation, that is perfection. That is perfection. Read the purport.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varṇāśrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varṇāśrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-prīti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varṇāśrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose.

Herein the statement of Bhāgavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varṇāśrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (4.13).

Robert Gouiran: I have the impression that this translation is not very good because when you define the four states of life and you translate the two last ones by..., mainly the last one, by devotion for sannyāsin. Sannyāsin is not devotion. Sannyāsin is...

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I'll read that again. "then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life..."

Robert Gouiran: Yes.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: "...the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life."

Robert Gouiran: Oh, yes. Another way of the fourth translation, the fourth one.

Yogeśvara: He says that the word sannyāsin should be translated as renunciation instead of devotion. The stage of renunciation, instead of...

Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of renunciation?

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, śamo damas titikṣā.

Yogeśvara: You want to translate? (French)

Prabhupāda: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes.

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?

Prabhupāda: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French)

Room Conversation with Professor Durckheim German Spiritual Writer -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: So you, first of all become graduate then talk of law books. Similarly, you first of all become a brāhmaṇa. Then you understand about Brahman, Absolute Truth. Without becoming brāhmaṇa how you can understand? (German) (break)

Satsvarūpa: (reading from Bhagavad-gītā) "...three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable." (German) (break)

Professor Durckheim: Your message, I think, will be very much appreciated by the youth of today in the western part of the world who says to the adults, "You have educated us to go to maintain our position in the world, to do something useful for the community and to behave nicely. But you never, but you never asked us who we are and who we should become (indistinct)." This is the problem.

Prabhupāda: That is the beginning of our talk, that you are spirit soul.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Reverend Powell: That's right. Yes. We came by air. Was there some reference?

Satsvarūpa: Yes.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

"Translation: According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Read the purport.

Satsvarūpa: The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him, everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation, rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men, technically called brāhmaṇas due to their being situated in the mode of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called the kṣatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion. The mercantile men, called the vaiśyas, are situated in the mixed modes of passion and ignorance, and the śūdras, or laborer class, are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Kṛṣṇa does not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society. Human society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men from the animal status, the abovementioned divisions are created by the Lord for the systematic development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life, according to different modes of material nature, are described in the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, however, is above even the brāhmaṇas, because a brāhmaṇa by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman manifestation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, but only a man who transcends the limited knowledge of a brāhmaṇa and reaches the knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, becomes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness—or, in other words, a Vaiṣṇava. Kṛṣṇa consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa, namely Rāma, Nṛsiṁha, Varāha, etc. However, as Kṛṣṇa is transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human society, a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also transcendental to all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of community, nation or species.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. The first part of that made me think of Jesus' parable about the talents, that some get two talents, and some get five and some ten. And...

Prabhupāda: (aside:) Come on. Sit down. Thank you. Oh, it is very nice. (handles paper wrapping) You can close the door.

Prabhupāda: The principles, as they are stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is not limited within Christian or communist or capitalist.

Reverend Powell: No.

Prabhupāda: No. The principle... Wherever there are these talented persons, he is to be considered as first class man. He does not say that "If it is found among the Hindus or amongst the Christians..." No. Anywhere. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). These guṇa, these modes of material nature, is all-pervasive. So even in India they protest. Because I am making them brāhmaṇa. My disciples, they're offered sacred thread. They're regularly made into brāhmaṇa.

1975 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Those who are pure devotees—avyabhicāreṇi, anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁ jñāna-karmādy-anāvṛtam (Brs. 1.1.11)—such persons are above this material infection. So therefore he doesn't require to accept sannyāsa or brahmacārī. He doesn't... These are gradual processes, to come to the varṇāśrama system, then accept the varṇa and āśramas, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha. This is called varṇāśrama system. But this is the beginning of human life. One who does not take to this system, he's animal because animal, there is no such system. And because in this age the varṇāśrama is not observed, therefore men are like animals. Dharmeṇa hīnā paṣubhiḥ samānāḥ. Dharma means this varṇāśrama-dharma. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). So if the human society does not accept dharma, then he's as good as animal.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Guest (4): That means that about this varṇa-saṅkara etc—Lord Kṛṣṇa mentions in Gītā—that this present day society is varṇa-saṅkara.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa-saṅkara. There is no varṇāśrama; therefore all the children, they are varṇa-saṅkara. And as soon as there is varṇa-saṅkara population, the world becomes hell. Therefore we are trying to check—"No illicit sex"—to stop this varṇa-saṅkara. Now the varṇa-saṅkara has come to such an extent that they are killing child, and that is legal. They have come down to such a extreme position.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor, other Guests and Disciples -- February 12, 1975, Mexico:

Guest (4): So dharma there means to the religious faith or duty?

Prabhupāda: No, dharma is duty, varṇāśrama-dharma. That is also given up. That means the only duty becomes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. In the beginning He said that dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya. Yes. Yuge yuge sambhavāmi. Now, He said that "I appear to reestablish the principle of religion." So at the last stage He said, sarva-dharmān parityajya. That means the so-called dharmas, or religion, which is going on in the world, they are not real.

Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā the social dimension is described, cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse. You read.

Hṛdayānanda:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

Room Conversation with three Trappist Monks, Psychologists from the University of Georgia, and Atlanta Lawyer, Michael Green -- March 1, 1975, Atlanta:

(Spanish)

Prabhupāda: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments—the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg—so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is creating some brain.

Prabhupāda: There cannot be any defect in the creation of God. We have created these defects on account of our disobeying the orders of God. God never said that "motorcar-ād bhavanti bhūtāni." He never says. But instead of producing food grains, we are producing so many unwanted things. People's energy is engaged for... Just like in America or in every country, so much energy and resources are engaged for preparing war materials. And that means there must be war. And you must be killed; I must be killed. You will kill me; I will kill you. That's all. Therefore God says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes of men: the most intelligent class, brāhmaṇa; the next intelligent class, kṣatriya; then next intelligent class, vaiśyas; and the fourth-class men, who cannot become brāhmaṇa, neither kṣatriya, nor vaiśya, they are called śūdra. Śūdra is meant for giving service to the others. Paricaryātmakaṁ karyaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). So in this age, 99% people are engaged as śūdra, working for others. No independence. Otherwise brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, they are independent. They are nobody's servant. But at the present moment, education means how to become expert servant. That means śūdra.

Room Conversation with Reporter -- March 9, 1975, London:

Reporter: Do I understand that the children in your school in Texas, that they're brought up in what you consider spiritual consciousness...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Reporter: Will they be virtually living outside...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Outside also you can live. Simply you must know how to live. At the present moment you do not know how to live. That's all. And there is no education how to live. All of us being sent to the slaughterhouse, that's all. They do not know how to live. In the Vedic civilization you will find the first proposition is how to live. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). How to live... First the human society is divided into four: the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya, or the śūdra. The first-class intelligent man, they are educated as brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇa means satya śama dama titikṣa ārjava, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Just like we are training engineer, similarly, a class of men, those who are very intelligent, they should be trained up as brāhmaṇa. They should be trained up how to speak truth any circumstance.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.

Guest: Is it possible to be brāhmaṇa for all?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Kṛṣṇa said, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Guest: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Suppose everyone becomes head. Then where is this supply of hands and legs? We do not say that everyone become brain. The brain is ordering, and who will carry the order? The order-carrier must be there, but they must carry order of the brāhmaṇa. Then it will be all right. The brain must be there, and the legs must be there. The legs must move by the dictation of the brain. Then it is perfect. It is not expected also that everyone will become brāhmaṇa. Therefore guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ.

Room Conversation with Press Representative -- March 21, 1975, Calcutta:

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, you are in need of manager. You are in need of manager. You cannot deny another class of men of manager, so why not make the best manager, the brāhmaṇa, who is truthful, who is equal, satya śamaḥ damaḥ, who is control of his senses, satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa, who is tolerant? These are the brahminical qualification. Satya śamaḥ damaḥ titikṣa. Who is simple, not hypocrite. Everyone is hypocrite. So why there should not be a class who is not hypocrite? All politicians saying something in the mouth and doing something else, because they are śūdra. So this is very scientific. How it not be scientific? It is spoken by God. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Required. Just like in this institution, I am guru, and if everyone becomes guru, then who will carry out the order of guru? There must be disciple also, who will carry out the order of guru. So it is not required... Just like in your body, it is not that body is made of head only, but head is required. You cannot avoid head, neither you can avoid the leg. So śūdra required, the brāhmaṇa required, the kṣatriya required, and the vaiśya required. And the society should be very nicely managed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ. Why does He not say one varṇa, brāhmaṇa? Naturally there must be division because all men are not of the same quality. You cannot expect. So whatever quality he has got, utilize that. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. Aṇḍha-khañja-nyāya. The one man is lame, and one man is blind. So both are useless. So they combine together. The lame man was taken on the shoulder of the blind man.

Meeting with GBC -- March 31, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: We are preparing ourself for entering into the family of Kṛṣṇa. So why should we be very much anxious to maintain this family. So actually... Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore says; "I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a sannyāsī. I'm not a gṛhastha. I'm not a brahmacārī." These four, eight varṇāśrama-dharma is unecessary for spiritually. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He was speaking with Rāmānanda Rāya... You'll find in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya... As soon as he suggested varṇāśrama-dharma, Rāmaṇanda Rāya, immediately Caitanya Mahāprabhu: "It is not very important. If you know better than this, you go on." He did not give any, much stress on this varṇāśrama-dharma. But for regulated life, that is required. And ultimately, it is not required. So it is not recommended for ordinary persons. But this is also unnecessary. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teaching is so sublime, that such things, which is the beginning of human life, that is also unnecessary. Iha bahya age kaha ara. Bahya means "this is superflous. You speak something higher than this." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So that is not very easy thing. First of all, we have to live very regulated life. Sannyāsa life is that regulated life. And then we can enter into the real life. That is ideal.

Morning Walk -- April 1, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: Suffering for all these sinful activities, always throbbing. See the newspaper. The newspaper is full of news—one side, everyone is restless condition, throbbing, and another news, sense gratification. That's all.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it necessary for people to leave the cities and live in our varṇāśrama situations in order to become happy?

Prabhupāda: You haven't got to leave anything, provided you understand Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not after leaving or accepting. We are not after this. We are after understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What... What shall I leave? Suppose if I leave city—I come here—still it is God's property. So what, what I leave? What I have got that I have to leave? Everything God's property. If you have something, then you can leave. But if you have nothing, what you will leave? It is another bogus. This is Māyāvādī theory.

Morning Walk -- April 6, 1975, Mayapur:

Prabhupāda: ...not within the Vedic culture. Vedic culture means this varṇāśrama-dharma: four varṇas, four āśrama. And those who are lower than the śūdras, they are not in the Vedic culture. They are called caṇḍālas. Among these caṇḍālas, the mleccha, yavana, are also there. There are. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). So they are also caṇḍālas, fifth status. Fourth status, up to śūdra, and then all fifth status. So amongst the fifth status, there are all meat-eaters, without any restriction. And there are dog-eaters. So amongst them, the fifth status, one who eats dog, he is considered most abominable.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Would a Vedic king try to prohibit such persons from eating...

Prabhupāda: No.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: ...animals of any kind? Would a Vedic king try to prohibit the fifth-class men from eating the animals?

Prabhupāda: No. Animals, you can eat if you like. But there was no slaughterhouse. If you like, you can kill your own animal and eat. That was open.

Morning Walk -- April 7, 1975, Mayapur:

Rāmeśvara: You wrote in the Fourth Canto that if we have too much sense pleasure when we are young, then we have corresponding disease when we are older.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here material life means as soon as you violate the rules and regulation, you suffer. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is the beginning of perfection in material life. It is the beginning. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). God has created this. If you adopt this institution of varṇāśrama-dharma, then your perfection of life begins.

Morning Walk -- April 19, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: So, on that point I have taken his ideas very nice, his thinking. He is a good thinker. And so I have taken his ideas, and I want to reply him. So any good thinker, leaders, they should do something so the India's glories... Now, these people, they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is India's glory because we haven't got to give them anything. We are hundred years back always. When they manufacture jet plane, we manufacture sewing machine. Or cycle.

Guest (1): But we have great paramparā of varṇāśrama-dharma.

Prabhupāda: So we can give them these things. We can give them these things, that spiritual emancipation, and they are appreciating. So if we make ourself in India a nice program-already they are eager to take—then they will take more and more. And that will glorify India's prestige. So everything is ready there? Oh, here. You have got that letter.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."

Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.

Governor: Both intensive and extensive training.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter.

Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent.

Prabhupāda: Ninety-five percent may remain non-brāhmaṇa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ-sahasraśaḥ. You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion. Then?

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: "Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saṁsṛti, we must adopt the whole varṇa and āśramas as they are recommended in all the śāstras. If you give up these directions of the śāstras, that is neither dharma nor saṁsṛti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gītā that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsī must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhāratīya sanskṛiti."

Prabhupāda: If you give up this varṇāśrama-dharma, then where is your bhāratīya sanskṛiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhāratīya sanskṛiti? Then?

Brahmānanda: "Six: Injunctions of śāstras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varṇāśrama. It is actually like this: the brāhmaṇa is like the head, and the kṣatriya is like the arms, the vaiśya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the śūdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacārī is the trained-up disciple, the gṛhastha is the trained-up householder, the vānaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyāsī is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society."

Governor: Coordination.

Prabhupāda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that "Because I am head, brāhmaṇa, oh, here is a śūdra. Oh, don't see his face." Why? Śūdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Brahmānanda: "...in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the śāstras charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended. Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kṛṣṇa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kṛṣṇa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Point Nine: The role of manava-dharma pariṣat. I think that if the manava-dharma pariṣat takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the pariṣat inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society. So far manava-dharma is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world. Point Ten: The manava-dharma mission, its constitution and program. Therefore the constitution of manava-dharma or the institution of varṇāśrama must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration. The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains. Mother nature, or mother Durgā, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains. This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is confirmed,

annād-bhavanti bhūtāni

parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ

yajñād bhavati parjanyo

yajñaḥ karma-samudbhavaḥ

(BG 3.14)

I hope you will give your serious consideration to my suggestions, and I am prepared to cooperate with you to my best capacity if you think my suggestions are right."

Prabhupāda: This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles) And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society.

Governor: Any elaboration of what you refer to as vānaprastha college?

Prabhupāda: No, varṇāśrama. Vānaprastha, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take prasādam and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Vṛndāvana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take vānaprastha, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge.

Brahmānanda: I think the governor was asking about the varṇāśrama college.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely... So in our India, in a place like Vṛndāvana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if varṇāśrama college is established. Of course, we, in India, so far I know, nobody will come to be trained up as a brāhmaṇa. They will prefer to be trained up as an electrician and not as a brāhmaṇa. Our Bon Mahārāja, he also tried for a Vaiṣṇava University. He was unsuccessful.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes, then there will be ideal character. That is going on. One man is claiming as brāhmaṇa, but he is doing the work of electrician. That is already going on.

Governor: No, but while doing his profession, if he has good influence of the varṇāśrama-dharma, of the brāhmaṇa, and then he will do the work with the dedication to God and to the society.

Prabhupāda: No. Why you are suggesting that although he is a brāhmaṇa, he become a electrician. Why?

Governor: I will put it this way. He is an engineer, but I would also...

Prabhupāda: Engineer?

Governor: A mechanical engineer.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Governor: And he also be influenced by the good points of varṇāśrama-dharma.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiḥ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). That is another way, that "I have no other means of earning livelihood." But if he becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then even though he is acting as an electrician, he is in touch with Kṛṣṇa. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya. That I explained in the varṇāśrama-dharma, that even though leg is leg, it is not as important as the head. But the leg is also required to keep the body in healthy condition. So that electrician who has connection with Kṛṣṇa, he is no more electrician; he is Vaiṣṇava because he has got his relationship with Kṛṣṇa. So that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Find out Bhagavad-gītā. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiḥ labhate naraḥ. You can get perfection.

Conversation with Governor -- April 20, 1975, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Ah, that verse. This index has been done by them. Yes.

Brahmānanda:

yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya

vartate kāma-kārataḥ

na sa siddhim avāpnoti

na sukhaṁ na parāṁ gatim

(BG 16.23)

"But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." "As described before, the śāstra-vidhim, or the direction of the śāstra, is given to the different castes and orders of human society. Everyone is expected to follow these rules and regulations. If one does not follow them and acts whimsically according to his lust, greed, and desire, then he never will be perfect in his life. In other words, a man may theoretically know all these things, but if he does not apply them in his own life, then he is to be known as the lowest of mankind. In the human form of life, a living entity is expected to be sane and to follow the regulations given for elevating his life to the highest platform, but if he does not follow them, then he degrades himself. But even if he follows the rules and regulations and moral principles and ultimately does not come to the stage of understanding the Supreme Lord, then all his knowledge becomes spoiled. Therefore one should gradually raise himself to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and devotional service; it is then and there that he can attain the highest perfectional stage, not otherwise. The word kāma-kārataḥ is very significant. A person who knowingly violates the rules acts in lust. He knows that this is forbidden, still he acts. This is called acting whimsically. He knows that this should be done, but still he does not do it; therefore he is called whimsical. Such persons are destined to be condemned by the Supreme Lord. Such persons cannot have the perfection which is meant for the human life. The human life is especially meant for purifying one's existence, and one who does not follow the rules and regulations cannot purify himself, nor can he attain to the real stage of happiness."

Prabhupāda: So, arrangement is...? Just see.

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: We can go?

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14), by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it?

Amogha: That must be true.

Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: (BG 4.13) "By Me, the four divisions of human soceity are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.

Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth:

Amogha: Shall I answer?

Prabhupāda: Mm.

Amogha: But at present the caste system in India isn't actually representative of the original varṇāśrama dharma system. The original system was a cooperation, organized cooperation between four kinds of men which are naturally there in society. Just like now we can see that some people are working as laborers, some people are working as merchants, and some people politicians and lawyers, some are teachers. Originally they were organized so that the priests, or priestly order, were benefiting everyone by their teaching. And so that they could fully concentrate on that, they were not engaged in working for food and money. But what happened in this age, was that the higher caste became fallen, and they misused their high position, and instead of helping everyone by their teaching, they misused the position, or exploited the position, simply for selfish ends, so there became a conflict between the...

Prabhupāda: Vested interest.

Amogha: Vested interest. Yes. So then there was conflict between the lower and the higher and it broke down. So what we're teaching is not actually the caste system as it is now or it was recently, but...

Prabhupāda: You have also caste system in the Western countries. You are not without caste system. There is a priestly class. So there are politicians, there are industrialists, merchants, and ordinary laborer. Where is...? How you can say there is no caste system in your country?

Morning Walk -- May 11, 1975, Perth:

Paramahaṁsa: They spend billions of dollars to try to go in space, but they don't spend that money for food.

Prabhupāda: Jaya, thank you, jaya. (break)

Devotee (1): In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa says He creates the four varṇas and āśramas, so these four classes of men are everywhere. I was just wondering if it is correct to say that each man only finds his satisfaction performing a particular type of work according to his mode of nature? Is that correct?

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Devotee (1): For instance, a man who is in the mode of passion like a kṣatriya, he only finds satisfaction when he's engaged in warfare or administrative work. Similarly so with a vaiśya or a śūdra...

Prabhupāda: Yes. I think it is... Maybe it is described in Seventeenth Chapter. According to our free will, we are associating with certain type of the modes of material nature, and then we become subjected to that material modes. The same example: you infect some disease, contamination, and you gain the result of it. So our endeavor should be how to raise ourself to the first, to the sattva-guṇa. That we can do. And then transcend sattva-guṇa and reach the spiritual platform. Everyone is trying to improve his position, but they do not know what is meant by improvement. Improvement means mostly they are in tamo-guṇa, ignorance. So rise from tamo-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to sattva-guṇa, and then sattva-guṇa to transcendence. That is improvement. So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guṇa and rajo-guṇa, whole material world, mostly tamo-guṇa and few of them in rajo-guṇa. The symptoms of rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa are lust and greediness.

Morning Walk -- May 15, 1975, Perth:

Śrutakīrti: And no mango for breakfast.

Prabhupāda: No. You said that the man will not like this kind of job. Eh? Therefore there must be division of job. That is cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). He is a śūdra. He does not want to produce his own food. If you give him some salary, then he will be satisfied. And then he will work with plow also. If you give him salary, he will accept that.

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect. In another place... Find out this verse,

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

Just like you have helped this institution in a difficult position. That means you have pleased Kṛṣṇa. That is your success. My devotees are in difficulty.

They wanted some legal help. You, as a lawyer, helped them, so you have pleased Kṛṣṇa, God. That is the aim of life. Whether by my work in different spheres, as a lawyer, as a businessman, or as a scholar, as a philosopher, as a scientist, as an economist... There are so many demands. It doesn't matter. But you should see whether you are successful. And what is the standard of success? The standard of success is whether you have pleased God. You read this. Ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhāḥ...

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Find out this verse.

Śrutakīrti:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne:

"Oh best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord, Hari."

Prabhupāda: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession—you are in a different dress—it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard.

Guest 2: I think the problem in western society, because in western society if you're not the head, then you're inferior.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Guest 2: If you're not the head, you're inferior. In Indian society that's not so.

Prabhupāda: Who shall be the head?

Guest 2: All want to be heads, in one way or another.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Amogha: He says that we all want to be heads.

Prabhupāda: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brāhmaṇa. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brāhmaṇas, first class. One class of man should be kṣatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaiśya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three.

Room Conversation with Yogi Bhajan -- June 7, 1975, Honolulu:

Prabhupāda: Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Train first-class men. He must be truthful.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So at the age of fifty years, fiftieth year, he gives up voluntarily. He keeps his wife with him just to assist him to advance in spiritual life, and they go from one holy place to another. And then when they are practiced, then the woman is sent to his elderly sons to take care and the man takes sannyāsa. This is Vedic civilization, varṇāśrama, four varṇas and four āśramas: the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra... And the sannyāsa is especially meant for the brāhmaṇas, not the kṣatriyas or the vaiśyas because they are not very much advanced. But the brāhmaṇa is advanced from the very beginning. Therefore sannyāsa is for the brāhmaṇa. The system that without being a brāhmaṇa nobody can take sannyāsa. So I am criticized by others in India that I am giving sannyāsa to them.

Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees -- June 22, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That "Hare Krishna" film at least helped us in the matter of propagating the Hare Kṛṣṇa word.

Dr. Gerson: I would like to.

Jayatīrtha: Dr. Gerson would like to publish a book that would be accepted by the scholarly circles so that they would see that our school and our varṇāśrama system is very good for mankind.

Dharmādhyakṣa: Because one of the main arguments against the movement is that we are crazy. So Dr. Gerson, it is his specialty in determining who is sane and who is crazy, and according to his observation, the devotees here are more sane than...

Prabhupāda: So kindly write one book, at least small book, supporting this movement. That will be great service. Actually this should be supported by all sane men, it is so nice. And practically, you see, Dr. Judah has admitted that "You have converted drug-addicted hippies into servant of Kṛṣṇa and servant of humanity." That he has written, that who likes us.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external.

Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.

Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: So the politicians should be guided by the brāhmaṇas. That is social structure. Those who are first-class men in the spiritual understanding... Or the politicians, the administrators, they should take instruction from the brāhmaṇas and take part in politics. Then they will be also first-class men. You haven't got to drag him down again. First of all elect, and drag him down. This is mistake. Just like you elected Nixon president; again you dragged him down, because there was mistake. You do not know who to elect because you are not guided by brāhmaṇas. This is the fault. The whole society is being guided by the mle..., śūdras and some portion vaiśyas. Mostly śūdras and some certain percentage, mercantile. And no kṣatriya, no brāhmaṇa. Therefore, for the peaceful life in human society, there must be four divisions. Find out this verse, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Jayatīrtha: 4.13.

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los Angeles:

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

Prabhupāda: Yes, Kṛṣṇa created these four division, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, but He does not belong to any one of them. He is neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśya nor śūdra. He is transcendental. Similarly, our philosophy—just to make the human society very peaceful and making progress we wish to establish this system. A first-class man, group of men, brāhmaṇas, they will guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas, the administrators, they will guide the vaiśya. Vaiśya means agriculture and cow protection and trade. And śūdra means those who are neither brāhmaṇa nor kṣatriya nor vaiśyas. They are simply worker, assistant. So there must be division like this. The brāhmaṇas should guide the kṣatriyas, and the kṣatriyas will administer the state, and the vaiśyas will produce foodstuff, and śūdras will help. Cooperation for common benefit. But the aim is spiritual realization. That is perfect society. If everyone is śūdra, without any aim of life, then there will be chaos. Just like in your country, in spite of so much facility for education, the students are produced hippies, useless for all purposes. Why? I have gone to so many universities. I have seen the students, hippies. And if you say that "If you act like cats and dogs, you will become dog next life," they say, "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" (laughter) This is education. He is prepared to become a dog. He does not know what is the distinction between dog and human being. He is seeking after the dog's facility that he can have sex on the street. He is thinking the dog life is advantageous. This is the position.

Prabhupāda: To test the potency of the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You are killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow sacrifice yajña is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating. It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat, then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the kṣatriyas, they were sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man. When they are fully practiced, then they are allowed to practice surgical operation. Similarly, kṣatriyas are meant for sometimes killing. Just like Arjuna, he's a kṣatriya. So Kṛṣṇa is criticizing him that "You are a kṣatriya. You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?" So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men—"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there?

Room Conversation -- June 26, 1975, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Action, whatever action we can do by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, that's all.

Devotee (2): But we also have to make varṇāśrama society or farms or businesses.

Prabhupāda: That, when we shall do, we shall see to it.

Devotee (2): But we are doing it. We are.

Devotee (1): We are doing it now, and that's the question...

Prabhupāda: So do it in your own way.

Devotee (2): We don't want to. We want to do everything Kṛṣṇa's way.

Prabhupāda: Stop it. Stop it. I say stop it. You have come to me for my advice. I say you stop it.

Room Conversation with the Mayor of Evanston -- July 4, 1975, Chicago:

Jagadīśa: He says young people today have no sense of discipline. They don't know what it means to be...

Prabhupāda: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmacārī, student life. Brahmacārī means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family or vaiśya family, first, second, third. So even śūdra family, he can learn also. So brahmacārī. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmacārī. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmacārī, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmacārī. You'll save so much trouble."

Room Conversation with Mr. & Mrs. Wax, Writer and Editing Manager of Playboy Magazine -- July 5, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is stated, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent.

Television Interview -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.

Press Conference -- July 9, 1975, Chicago:

Prabhupāda: So our educational system should be so arranged that there may be first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men, not less than fourth-class men. Then the social structure will be in order and everyone will be peaceful, aiming at the point, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Unless there is such structure of the society... Just like in our body we have got four divisions, the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. All of them are required. But the position of the head and position of the leg are different. Head means giving direction, and arms means giving protection, and belly means receiving food for energy of the body, and leg means working. So the human society must be divided into four section, and they should work combinedly, cooperatively. Then there will be peaceful condition for realization of the goal of life, back to home, back to Godhead. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is teaching this process of life, and the whole world is now in chaos on account of no brain.

Room Conversation with writer, Sandy Nixon -- July 13, 1975, Philadelphia:

Prabhupāda: No, no, lot of people, you are also one of them. So where do you find that we are trying to introduce caste system? First of all find out where is the attempt. Then you ask question. Otherwise it is irrelevant question.

Sandy Nixon: The Gītā mentions the caste system.

Prabhupāda: Gītā, what mentions, do you know?

Sandy Nixon: The four castes and an untouchable caste.

Prabhupāda: What is that? On the basis of what?

Sandy Nixon: I can't locate it directly. But the Brahma...

Prabhupāda: Brahmānanda. Who has said that this is caste system? This is not caste system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). According to quality and according to work, there are four divisions of men. Just like you can understand there are engineers and there are medical practitioners. So do you take them as caste? "Oh, he is engineer caste. He is medical caste." Do you say like that?

Sandy Nixon: I don't want to say what I feel because I'm recording you. (laughs)

Prabhupāda: I'm asking you, I'm asking you...

Sandy Nixon: Well, I think there's always been castes. It's just that we don't recognize the fact that they're there.

Prabhupāda: No, recognize means if a man is qualified medical man we accept him as medical man. And if a man is qualified engineer, we accept him as engineer. Similarly, Bhagavad-gītā suggests—not suggest, it is there—there are four classes of men, the most intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men and ordinary worker. That is already there.

Room Conversation -- July 31, 1975, New Orleans:

Prabhupāda: If you engage the head for walking, that is mistake, and if you engage the leg for thinking, that is mistake. Similarly, there are different types of men, combine together, and it will be nice body, the leg will walk, the hand will protect, the head will give instruction, and the belly will get energy by eating food. Those divisions are required. Not that everyone is all. No, there must be division of labor. So that is described, how to make civilization perfect, who is going to hear and take it. Cātur varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). If you can adjust things, you can utilize things, then everything will be useful. And if you do not know how to utilize things, then everything will be useless. Take instruction from Bhagavad-gītā and make everything useful. Then the human society will be perfect. Otherwise you'll go on manufacturing ideas, you'll never be successful. Because nature's law is working, you cannot interfere with the nature's law. That is not possible. You may think yourself very much advanced in science, but nature's law, you cannot interfere. Just like now there is movement, man and woman, equal.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- August 1, 1975, New Orleans:

Brahmānanda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into māyā. He returned to Sweden. Now he's getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he's using that money to buy drugs. So now he's completely trapped.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.

Prabhupāda: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl's getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.

Satsvarūpa: That's very prominent.

Prabhupāda: And making trade. That is going on.

Brahmānanda: So this is the varṇāśrama system that you are...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Brahmānanda: This varṇāśrama college...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).

Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what exactly do the... Do the vaiśyas cultivate the fields or the śūdras cultivate the fields?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Jagadīśa: Is it the duty of the vaiśyas to cultivate the fields or...?

Prabhupāda: Actually it is the duty of the vaiśyas, but the śūdras can help everyone, the helpers. The śūdras will help the brāhmaṇas, the kṣatriyas, as well as the vaiśyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are śūdras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, or vaiśya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying śāstras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brāhmaṇa. They haven't got to work as kṣatriya, as vaiśya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brāhmaṇa, with good character.

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Prabhupāda: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated.

Cyavana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Kṛṣṇa said that there should be four divisions, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13), He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Kṛṣṇa does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.

Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It has been misrepresented.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brāhmaṇa can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this māyā, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13)—brāhmaṇa can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brāhmaṇa can be prepared..., brāhmaṇa is manufactured in India and the son of a brāhmaṇa is a brāhmaṇa.

Prabhupāda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikeśa: That Kṛṣṇa created the four orders.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kṛṣṇa's advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

Harikeśa: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity...

Prabhupāda: No, no.

Harikeśa: ...so you can see what kind of quality they have.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Take "everyone is rascal," then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that "Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the..." No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brāhmaṇa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brāhmaṇa, classify him in the brāhmaṇa. One is trained up as kṣatriya, classify him. In this way, cātur-varṇyaṁ māyā sṛṣ...

Prabhupāda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: "It is better to perform one's duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another's duty"?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (laughter)

Harikeśa: I've always wondered... The food will be taken care of in a perfect varṇāśrama society; government is taken care of...

Prabhupāda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care?

Harikeśa: When it is properly set up.

Prabhupāda: First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That's all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. "People's government." All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People's government.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.

Harikeśa: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnāśrama-dharma is the only thing that will work.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa conscious government means Vedic government.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let him become Kṛṣṇa conscious. He will stop this cheating business.

Harikeśa: But he has to stop.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Rājarṣi.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.

Harikeśa: So then gradually it will become the varṇāśrama, with the one central head.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Harikeśa: So we don't try to make a revolutionary system.

Prabhupāda: This is revolution.

Harikeśa: We try to just make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it's automatic revolution.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand.

Indian man (1): So they got to order everybody. That's what I believe.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. He has to tax his brain. Kṛṣṇa has given advice, everything: "Divide the society into four classes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra." And then the brāhmaṇas should give nice advice, teacher. The kṣatriyas should govern, and the vaiśyas should produce food and give protection to the cows, and if there is excess, then trade. And śūdras should help, worker. Here I see the Europeans, they are working as the kṣatriyas, government, and the Indians they are working as vaiśya, and the Africans, they are as śūdras. But where is brāhmaṇa? There is no brāhmaṇa; therefore it is not good. It will suffer.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But we find śūdras even amongst the European class here, even though they are in the governing position.

Prabhupāda: No, we are not speaking "Europeans, Americans, Indians." We are speaking "human being." We never say... Bhagavad-gītā never says that the Europeans should be the first-class men and Indian should be the last... It never says. That is training. Just like engineering college. The European also can become engineer, and the Indian also can become engineer. There is no discrimination. Similarly, this division of society, that the whole human society, it should be recruited and trained up... Then society will be all right. Otherwise not.

Morning Walk -- October 19, 1975, Johannesburg:

Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems?

Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.

Morning Walk -- November 3, 1975, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. According to your, I mean, sva-dharma.

Prabhupāda: This is perfection of life, that...

ataḥ puṁbhir dvija-śreṣṭha

varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanusthitasya dharmasya

saṁsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam