Expressions researched:
"train"
|"trained"
|"trainee"
|"trainees"
|"trainer"
|"trainers"
|"training"
|"trains"
Interviewer: Then there is a similarity to Catholicism. The priest is supposed to be celibate.
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Anywhere there is spiritual conception, sex life is not indulged. Anywhere, either it may be Christianity or Hinduism... Sex life is materialism. That is opposite number of spiritualism. So people are trained gradually to refrain from sex life. And in the sannyāsa life he's completely trained. Therefore he's allowed to move in the society for preaching spiritual education.
Interviewer: Well, you have six chapters, so evidently you cannot be everywhere at once. Who is in charge of a temple when you're not here?
Prabhupāda: The students are being trained. The students, they also speak the same thing. There is nothing new. I also speak from the Bhagavad-gītā and the students also speak from the Bhagavad-gītā. The Bhagavad-gītā is the same in all the centers. But it may be because I have little more experience I can explain them a little more nicely. And the students, they also explain according to their experience. But the principle is the same.
Interviewer: Caller, you're on the air on KGO with the Swami.
Caller (woman): Ah, yeah. I'm not involved with it, but I'm curious. I'm wondering if there's any similarity between meditation and hypnosis? In other words, the hypnotic state?
Interviewer: Or is meditation self-hypnosis? Is that what you're asking?
Caller: Is it similar? It sounds like it might be.
Interviewer: Swami?
Prabhupāda: I do not know what is self-hypnosis.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was playing Vaiṣṇava drama in His household life, rather in student life, and He was taking the part of Rukmiṇī, because He was very beautiful young boy. Formerly, in our childhood also, we saw in drama there was no females taking part. If there was a female part, the man would be dressed just like a female. Formerly females are not allowed. If one has to find out a female for taking part in drama, then he has to find out from other quarters, not in respectable part. Now, very, very respectable, educated girls are taking in drama and cinema in India. Formerly this was not possible. And perhaps in the theatrical performances, stage, that was introduced by Lord Caitanya, drama. But His dramatical performances were limited within the devotees. He will not allow to take part in the performance who is not a devotee. So if our devotees... That movie was very nice. That's a good example. If we play, train our devotees to present some dramatical performances or movie, I think it will be very successful, because they will play from transcendental sentiment, not for trade purpose. So that will come out very successful. Yes. In our childhood we had the occasion of taking part in a drama, Caitanya-līlā. I took the part of Advaita, and our friends, others, somebody took the part of Caitanya, Nityānanda. So that drama was so successful, it was unique in Calcutta. Because we were not, we were not professionals. I saw from the stage a huge gathering, they're all crying. I was surprised, "Why these people are crying?" You see? It was great successful, because we were not professionals.
Prabhupāda: Immediately. We give something better engagement.
Journalist: What is this?
Prabhupāda: Just like our boys and girls, they are all engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business, in temple work, in painting, in typing, in recording, so many things. And they are happy. They are not going to cinema, they are not going to club, they are not drinking, they are not smoking. So practically I am training them how to control. And there is possibility because these boys and girls, they are all Americans. They are not imported from India. Why they have taken to this? The system is so nice that they have liked it. So if you spread this system, everything will be solved.
Journalist: So then it...
Prabhupāda: We don't prohibit that you don't mix with woman or you stop sex life. We don't say that. But we make everything regulated under Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Their aim is higher. These are all secondary platform. So in this way everything is nice.
Journalist: How many, how many...
Prabhupāda: Oh, millions. We have got, this Vaiṣṇava philosophy, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, million and millions. Almost all. 80 percent. You ask any Indian and he'll talk so many things about Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He may not be my disciple, but there are many saintly person like me. They are doing this business.
Journalist: Did you get formal training with a...
Prabhupāda: Yes, I was initiated by my Guru Mahārāja. His, here is that, my spiritual master's photo.
Journalist: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So when your country wanted a certificate for making me permanent resident, so I got a certificate from my Godbrothers that I am initiated. That's all. But otherwise, in our country, there is no necessity of certificate.
Journalist: In other words, there's nothing like going to a seminary in India where you go to a seminary or a monastery and take a course for four years...
Prabhupāda: No, this is monastery. Yes, there is a monastery. We have got institution, Gauḍīya Math Institution. They have got hundreds of branches, yes.
Journalist: Macmillan is publishing this one.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Macmillan is publishing.
Journalist: Now when you... Do you go to this institute for a certain period of time?
Prabhupāda: There is no fixed period. No. But, say, for me, I was trained, my father was of this line...
Journalist: Oh, your father...
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. My father trained me from childhood, yes. And then I met my spiritual master in 1922, and I was initiated in... On the whole there was a background, because as I told you, 80, 90 percent people are Kṛṣṇa conscious by family-wise. You see? So we were trained up from the beginning of our life. Officially, of course, I accepted my spiritual master in 1933. Since then, I had some background, and since I met, I developed this idea. Yes.
Journalist: I see, I see. So you have been, in a sense, spreading this word since 1933 on your own.
Prabhupāda: No. I'm spreading as missionary since nineteen hundred..., practically since '59.
Journalist: Can you explain that.
Prabhupāda: First of all, a boy is trained as brahmacārī, spiritual life. Then he is advised not to enter family life. But if he is unable to control his sex life, he is allowed, "All right. You get yourself married." Then he remains in family life. So he marries at the age of 24 or 25. 25 years, let him enjoy sex life. In the meantime, he gets some elderly children. So at the age of 50, the husband and wife goes away from the home and they travel in all places of pilgrimage just to detach them from family affection. In this way, when the man is a little more advanced, he asks his wife that "You go and take care of the family and your sons, grown-up, they'll take care of you. Let me take sannyāsa." So he becomes alone and preaches the knowledge which he has acquired. This is Vedic civilization. Not that a man should remain in family life from birth to death. No. In Buddhism also there is compulsory regulative principle that a Buddhist must become a sannyāsī at least for ten years. Yes. Because the whole idea is how to attain spiritual perfection. So if one remains in his family life, encumbered, he cannot make any spiritual advancement. But if the family also, whole family is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then it is helpful. But that is very rare. Because the husband may be Kṛṣṇa conscious, the wife may not be. But the culture was so nice that everyone remained Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Interviewer: Now, you could say philosophical order, a cultural order. But the people...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Religious... If you say religious orders, there are many religious orders; they allow all these things. It is not exactly religious order. It is training of consciousness, because we are trying to put people in original, pure consciousness, which we call, technically, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like when rain is showered from the cloud, it is pure distilled water, but as soon as it is in touch with the earth, it is salty or so many chemicals are formed, similarly, original consciousness is pure, but when it is contaminated with matter, the consciousness is impure. So we are trying to purify the consciousness. That's all. That is our program. It is not a religious order. Consciousness is there in every living entity, and we are trying to purify his consciousness. When he comes to his original consciousness he becomes completely happy.
Prabhupāda: So religious principle must be there in the human society. And what is the purpose? Why? The religious principle means that this material life is not happy. And we are searching after happiness. So real happiness is not in this world. You take any, I mean to say, messiaḥ. You take Lord Jesus Christ or Buddha or Lord Caitanya or Kṛṣṇa, or anyone you take. Nobody says that "You make adjustment here and live peacefully." No. Nobody says. You know that. So religious principle means to know that this is not the place to live happily. This is the principle aim of teaching religion. We are trying to live here, making things nicely adjusted, peace and prosperity. That will never be possible. This is foolishness. So religion means, religiously trained mind means he will know that "This is not the place for me. I should (with)draw my attachment for this place, and I must know what is my necessity. I am a spirit soul. I am not this body. Therefore bodily necessities are not all my demands. I must have spiritual necessities also. So all this means that I must give up my attachment for this body and I must develop my spiritual needs." That is the purpose of religion. So here it is stated that vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). All these religious principles can be achieved immediately if you place your love unto Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ. Bhakti-yogaḥ means devotional... If you try to serve, in devotional service, Kṛṣṇa, then all these principles of religions will automatically come. You will know that "I am not this body, I am a spirit soul.
Prabhupāda: And agree with you. Our surrender means we agree with Kṛṣṇa in everything, although we are individual. If Kṛṣṇa says you have to die, we die; out of love. But we are individual, I can deny "Why shall I die?" That reality I have got. Just like Arjuna was asked, "Now I have taught you Bhagavad-gītā, now whatever you like you do," yathecchasi tathā kuru (BG 18.63), "as you like." He doesn't touch the individuality. But Arjuna voluntarily surrendered: "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "yes, I shall do whatever You ask." He changed his decision. He decided not to fight, but he agreed, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. This agreement, this is oneness. Not oneness does not mean mix up homogeneously. No, He keeps his individuality. Kṛṣṇa keeps his individuality, yathecchasi tathā kuru: "Now whatever you like you do." He says, "Yes," kariṣye vacanaṁ tava (BG 18.73), "I shall do what you say." So this is oneness. Not to lose individuality. Because we cannot lose our individuality. We are individually made originally. Kṛṣṇa is individual, we are individual, everyone is individual. Merging means merging in that total agreement. That is liberation. Total agreement without any disagreement. And that is the perfection: to keep individuality and agree with God in total agreement. That is perfection. And imperfection so long we are in rebelled condition that is material because one who has a slightest desire of disagreement with Kṛṣṇa, he cannot live there. There the only predominant figure is Kṛṣṇa. So one who is trained fully to agree with Kṛṣṇa, they are accepted as associates. Bhagavad-gītā says, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ pradadyate: (BG 7.19) after many, many births of cultivating knowledge in spiritual life, a fully conversant, wise person surrenders unto Me. Bahūnāṁ janmanaṁ ante: after many, many births. How he surrenders? Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti: (BG 7.19) oh! Kṛṣṇa is everything.
Kīrtanānanda: I've never been able to figure that out, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: The Hindus, they think it is such a tremendous thing to give up meat-eating, and here we have been raised with meat-eating, and we have no problem whatever. To us it is nothing to give up...
Prabhupāda: No. There is no problem for Vaiṣṇava here in America. They are not trained. They are simply... Just like there are so many Christians. Practically they are not following. Similarly, these Hindus at the present moment, they are in name. Either Hindus, Muslim, or..., they are in name only.
Kīrtanānanda: There's no real substance.
Prabhupāda: No.
Kīrtanānanda: When one starts tasting the real substance then there is no problem giving up any of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. When he gives importance to Kṛṣṇa he can sacrifice everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is another state. That is not ordinary stage. That is transcendental state. Yes.
Hayagrīva: You mentioned with the payments...
Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said that veda mukha mane..., veda viruddha kārya kare, veda mukhe mane: "They do everything against Vedas, but they say that 'We are following. We are followers of the Vedic religion.' " What is that?
Prabhupāda: So you have to create a body like that. You cannot go in this body. They're attempting to go with this body. That will be failure. It will be not possible. In every planet the atmosphere, the..., everything is different. So you have to create a different body to go to a particular type of planet. There are millions and thousands of planets. Moon planet is one of them. Kṛṣṇa says,
(chuckling) Mad-yājino: "Those who are in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll come to Me." And what is the benefit of going to Kṛṣṇa? He says, mām upetya: "If anyone comes to Me," mam upetya kaunteya duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15), "he does not come back again to this miserable condition." And aśāśvatam, temporary. Why? Samsiddhim paramam gataḥ. Oh, he has attained the highest perfection, to go back to Kṛṣṇa, mad-yājino 'pi mām, "one who comes to Me." So this is the greatest benediction to the human society, to train them to go back to Kṛṣṇa and dance there with Kṛṣṇa in rasa-līlā. You have seen Kṛṣṇa's rasa-līlā dancing? You have not seen?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) We can have so many connection with Kṛṣṇa, as friend, as servant, as parents, as lover, whatever you like. Ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham (BG 4.11). You cultivate that consciousness, how you like Kṛṣṇa. He is prepared to accept you in that capacity. And that makes a solution of all problems. Here nothing is permanent, nothing is blissful, and nothing is full of knowledge. Here... This year we held examination on bhakti-śāstrī, and here is the answer of a girl, Himavati. She has written very nice. I have read it. So we are training these boys and girls to Kṛṣṇa consciousness according to the Kṛṣṇa science. Anyone can take advantage of it. It is a very nice thing. So you also try to understand, and if it is nice, you take it up. You are after something very nice. Is my proposal unreasonable? (chuckles) You are all intelligent boys. Try to understand it.
Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is composed of four different stages. The first stage is to understand the relationship with Godhead, or Kṛṣṇa. Because the conditioned souls at the present moment, they have forgotten self. They have forgotten their relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Actually the relationship is there, eternal, but under the influence of māyā he is thinking that "I am something of this material world," identifying himself with this body. So we have to awake them from that illusory existence, what he is not. The whole mistake of the modern status of life... I don't say modern civilization. This is coming up since the creation of this material world. Sometimes it is in greater degree and sometimes in lesser degree. In Satya-yuga the same condition, but in lesser degree. But in Kali-yuga the condition is in greater degree. So the first business is to awake the conditioned souls from their illusory position, that he is thinking, "I am this body and anything in relationship with this body is very important." Janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is illusion. We speak of illusion, māyā. This is illusion, that "I am this body and anything in relation of this body..." I have got special relationship with certain woman, so I think, "She is my wife. I cannot do without her." Or another woman from whom I have taken birth, "She is my mother." Similarly father, similarly sons. In this way, country, society, at the most, humanity. That's all. But all these things are illusion because they are in bodily relationship. Yasyātmā-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). Those who are passing on on this illusory condition of life, they are compared with the cows and the asses. So our first business is to wake up the general mass of people from this illusory condition of life. So Back to Godhead is specially meant for that purpose. We are pushing our Back to Godhead to the general mass of people to the first condition, first status of enlightenment. And then those who are becoming enlightened, coming forward, "Swamiji, or the society, please make me a member. Please initiate me," he is coming forward, understanding his position. So that is second stage, to train him how to awaken his, that dormant love of God. That is another stage, training. Sambandha abhidheya. Then, when he is actually in love of Godhead, then he can understand the higher status of loving exchange between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and the Vṛndāvana. This is third, third stage, yes. And the fourth stage is paramahaṁsa stage, who is always enjoying. Santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti... When one is completely merged in the ocean of love of Godhead, he will relish in any condition of life Kṛṣṇa, present. Kṛṣṇa present means, Kṛṣṇa present, His name present, His form present, His līlā present, His paraphernalia present. Everything. Kṛṣṇa is not alone. We are not impersonalist. As soon as we say, "Kṛṣṇa," Kṛṣṇa means with His name, fame, opulence, entourage, pastime, etc. So Back to Godhead generally deals in two stages of understanding, the, to awaken the relationship and to train them.
Brahmānanda: That is how we can expand also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Some assistant always must be there, training of assistant. So far your editorial is concerned, you can train. Now Puruṣottama, he can also assist you. Similarly, Gaurasundara can assist you.
Satsvarūpa: Jayadvaita is already...
Prabhupāda: Ah, Jayadvaita. So in this way you should create assistant editors also.
Hayagrīva: Then the process thus far we have, someone types off the dictaphone. Now, thus far you've been doing this?
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Hayagrīva: Thus far Satsvarūpa...
Prabhupāda: That dictaphone can be done in Detroit. That boy Bhagavān dāsa is here. He has offered service.
Satsvarūpa: There's one thing... It seems to be easy, but it's very difficult to hear your voice.
Prabhupāda: That will require practice. He may commit some mistake in the beginning, but when he is practiced, he will do the right thing. So that you cannot avoid. You cannot change my voice.
Hayagrīva: But before you send them, make a tape, make a recording of them so you can check them over if you want to check them over. 'Cause I don't have time to do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So taping, recording, that does not take much time.
Hayagrīva: No. Somebody can do that for you.
Prabhupāda: You can keep it and record. Yes. So manage in that way. We have to train so many things. So tactfully you have to do that.
Hayagrīva: Then he does the first editing. After it's typed up off the dictaphone, Satsvarūpa does the first editing. Then I go over what he has gone over and check the manuscript...
Prabhupāda: Yes. What you do, he goes. And what he does, you go. Then final. In this way. But the last editing should be checked twice. The dictaphone, then checked by him and then by you. Or checked by you and then by him. That's all.
Hayagrīva: Yes. And Pradyumna does the Sanskrit after.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all. That is printing department.
Guest: (unintelligible)
Guest (4): I really couldn't believe it.
Prabhupāda: No, in the reading matter he said that, "He was trained by his father to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, to observe Rathayātrā, and he was taught mṛdaṅga." These are all true. But anyone who worships Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa and who follows the Hindu ceremonies, Rathayātrā, how he can say that "Hinduism nothing"? Just see how rascaldom. This is contradiction.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, there is reason for that. Because that paper, the owner of that press is a Jain. And the Jains have a natural antipathy towards the ...?...
Prabhupāda: Oh, just see. So how biased man can report? So therefore we are avoiding reports.
Guest (4): (Hindi?)
Prabhupāda: No, tape may be. But he also taped, that man. But he has misrepresented.
Guest (4): I should like to ask one question, sir.
Prabhupāda: All right, you can ask. But kindly publish rightly. Don't...
Guest (4): Yes, yes.
Guest (5): (unintelligible)
Prabhupāda: (break) Still you want to inquire from her?
Guest (4): From the entire business.
Prabhupāda: So you can inquire from me. In my presence, you can inquire from me. Because, after all, they are my students, they may not be able to reply thoroughly. So if you have got any inquiries you can ask from me.
Guest (4): Then what system do you advocate?
Prabhupāda: Of course, so far Vedic culture is concerned, they advocated monarchy because the one man's training, a good king guided by the brahminical culture, although it was autocratic sometimes, but because the king was very cultured there was no possibility of doing any harm to the citizens. But democracy means simply they are given the post by votes, and they may be all rascals. Then what they can think of good to the citizens?
Guest (4): Mahārāja, don't you think that monarchy (unclear)
Prabhupāda: No, that is also not possible. And therefore we are training people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And when the Kṛṣṇa conscious people will elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders there will be peace and prosperity. And now, because the minority is Kṛṣṇa conscious, they cannot elect Kṛṣṇa conscious leaders and therefore havoc is being played.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, do you think the West is being Hinduized?
Prabhupāda: The "Hinduized" is a sectarian view. We are not...
Guest (4): I mean this, being brought up on sanātana culture.
Prabhupāda: Vedic ways. Yes. You can... The perfect word is Vedic civilization.
Guest (4): Mahārāja, (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varnāśrama-dharma... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Qualified. Therefore we want qualified brāhmaṇas, qualified kṣatriyas. At the present moment, without being qualified, they are passing on as brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya. That is not varṇāśrama. Without being qualified they are all śūdras, all caṇḍālas. But when they are properly trained and qualified, then it is varṇāśrama, real varṇāśrama.
Guest (4): Where are they to be trained, then? How are they...
Prabhupāda: That we are proposing. When we open a center we shall train anyone. It doesn't matter whether he is born in a śūdra family or brāhmaṇa family. Just like they are born in a different family other than brāhmaṇa but they are now brāhmaṇa because after being trained up.
Guest (4): (Hindi) ...regard, you said that monarchy and democracy, both are systems which cannot help this cause. Then...
Prabhupāda: No, why cannot help? If... Monarchy means the king was properly trained up. Similarly, in the democracy, if people are properly trained up, then they will vote for nice men and there will be nice government. Now, because the people are not trained, they are practically asses. The votes of the asses, what has the meaning? If the majority are asses, then one ass will be elected. That's all. So when the executive head is an ass what benefit he can do to the people?
Guest (5): I see.
Prabhupāda: That is the highest, topmost type of yoga. Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata āntarātmanā, śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo mataḥ: (BG 6.47) "Anyone," Kṛṣṇa says, "who is thinking of Me always within his heart, with devotion and love, he is the topmost yogi." Yoginām api sarveṣāṁ. So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, as soon as you chant Kṛṣṇa and hear it, immediately you think of. And the chanting is not done by any ordinary man. Unless one has love and devotion for Kṛṣṇa, he cannot chant. You just study with this verse. Śraddhāvān bhajate yo mam, āntarātmanā: "Within, he is topmost." So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means we are training people to become the topmost yogis.
Guest (3): Do they have to practice every day?
Prabhupāda: The practice is very simple. Anyone, when you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, even child joins. Even a small child, he also claps and joins. Therefore it is recommended in the śāstras, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma iva kevalam, kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva (CC Adi 17.21). In this age nobody can meditate actually. It is very difficult. Maybe one or two persons can meditate, but that is not for all. But here Kṛṣṇa conscious, the chanting, is so nice, that even a child can take part. It doesn't require that he should be educated, he should be rich or he should be enlightened, no. As he is, simply if he takes part in this... Even woman. We were chanting. There was some roaring. As soon as we begin chanting, it stopped. This is authorized. This is recommended.
Guest (2): The only sense is cry...
Prabhupāda: So many ways we do not know. There is some trouble, I am crying, child is crying, and the mother knows that, "He is suffering. Give..." Seeking the help of the mother. Then we are going to a school. The father is training, mother is training. Are you not born foolish? In the Bhāgavata says, abodha-jātaḥ: "born foolish." Everyone is born rascal. So if he does not take help from the authorities how he can make progress? You have become lawyer by sitting at home?
Guest (2): No, no, I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours.
Prabhupāda: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science—you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhilinga. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is... Perhaps you also know. Gacchet, kuryat, gadyat. These are vidhilinga. Vidhilinga means that is compulsory. Is it not?
Guest (3): Yes.
Guest: That should not be for ours.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says, kuruṣva mad-arpaṇam, yat karoṣi. "Whatever you do, the result should be given to Me." Do for it. "Do for for Me." Yat karoṣi yaj juhoṣi yad aśnāsi yat tapasyasi dadāsi yat (BG 9.27). So this requires training, how everything can be molded for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore guidance required, bona fide spiritual master required. Under his guidance, one has to do. Ādau gurvāśrayam. In order to execute Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one has to first of all accept a bona fide spiritual master. Then everything will be done. He is representative of Kṛṣṇa, and to act under his direction means acting under Kṛṣṇa. He knows how to utilize your energy for service of Kṛṣṇa. Ādau gurvāśrayam sad-dharma-pṛcchat sādhu-mārgānugāmanam. Just like Rūpa Gosvāmī, he was prime minister. He had no information of Kṛṣṇa, but since he saw... Of course, Rūpa Gosvāmī is eternally Kṛṣṇa's companion, but superficially he was showing that he was a prime minister and he was engaged in Nawab's service. But when he met Caitanya Mahāprabhu, then he decided that "I shall retire from this service and act Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission." So what did he do? Whatever money he collected by his service—it was huge amount-fifty percent he immediately spent for Kṛṣṇa. And fifty..., twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his emergency expenditure. So this division, fifty percent for Kṛṣṇa means the whole life he acted as a minister, that means he acted for Kṛṣṇa. Because the result is given to Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa says, yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam. Is it clear? But our business is... Suppose I am earning for my livelihood. Everyone is working for... Livelihood requires only six annas per day. But he is earning six thousand per day, and he says, "It is my livelihood." Is it not fact? Very, very... Many, many big businessmen, they are earning six thousand per month...per day. But actually, for his livelihood he requires six annas. Why he's earning six thousand? Then Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me." Yat karoṣi kuruṣva tad mad-arpaṇam.
Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.
Prabhupāda: That... But there is one thing that I am experiencing. India's the spiritual asset, if that is distributed, that will increase India's (indistinct). That is my... Because everywhere I go, still people adore India's spiritual culture. They are after India. And if they are properly distributed, the treasurehouse of Indian spiritual knowledge, then at least people outside India, they'll think that "We are getting something from India."
Prof. Kotovsky: Oh, you are right in this sense to my mind that the Indian cultural heritage is to be made known everywhere. That's right. But from the..., in the same time, in what way this would benefit Indian training masters(?) themselves? Because they are sitting in India...
Prabhupāda: No, India...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...and they have nothing from spreading of Indian cultural heritage and etc. over the world. Indian villagers have to have fertilizers, tractors, etc...
Prabhupāda: We do not object to that. There is no objection.
Prof. Kotovsky: Yes, I don't think that you object.
Prabhupāda: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted. I wanted to purchase one Stanberg.
Pratyatoṣa: Tanberg?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Pratyatoṣa: Well, we have a Tanberg here that you can use. I had it in Detroit, remember? It's a very, very good machine, and I'm going to leave it here in New York because I have to go to Minneapolis for some training because of my job. I have a job as a computer programmer, so I have to go there for a while, but I'll be back in New York. But I'm going to show Gadādhara and Candanācārya how to use it so they can use it, and then you can use it during the daytime. It's a really good machine.
Prabhupāda: So where is that machine?
Pratyatoṣa: Pardon?
Prabhupāda: Where is that machine?
Pratyatoṣa: That's a Tanberg.
Devotee (4): Now it's in the temple. I use it when Your Divine Grace is speaking.
Prabhupāda: So where is that machine?
Pratyatoṣa: It's in the temple room right now. It's connected to the P.A. system and a microphone.
Prabhupāda: So you bring it and we will see.
Sister Mary: People find it very difficult today...
Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example. Three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained.
Sister Mary: For people outside.
Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach.
Sister Mary: Well, you can't preach until you are purified.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, purification will go on. Suppose you are... Just like we are holding, what I... I began this propaganda in the Western countries. I was sitting in a park, Thompkinson's? What is that?
Revatīnandana: Thompkins Square.
Prabhupāda: Thompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... For three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically, he started my European movement, he started first.
Prabhupāda: So in this way organize and distribute literature, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana yajña. Then our mission will be successful. Accha, here, they are coming, so we shall make a committee, London building fund committee. In that committee, Mr. Arnold and his wife... (break) ...nicely and organize responsibly. So that can be done provided they have got their own men. Why he's not training the Africans? He should train.
Parivrājakācārya: He hasn't got very many Africans. I think only about two.
Prabhupāda: Then suspend that installation.
Parivrājakācārya: They haven't been making any devotees there.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no... (break) ...and if we conquer our eating then we can conquer our sleeping also. Nidrāhāra vihārakādi vijitau **. (break) Don't make fuss. If you are serious, then it is all right. Otherwise, you are young men. If you again give up sannyāsa or you try to marry, it will be scandalous for our society. Don't do that. If you are steady... But so far report is you are not very steady. Do you admit this or not?
Kulaśekhara: Yes. Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.
Prabhupāda: Where is that?
Śyāmasundara: Just down the street.
Prabhupāda: He takes them.
Prabhupāda: Saṅkalpa, vikalpa. This is, in Sanskrit it is called saṅkalpa, vikalpa or accepting and rejecting. That is mind's function. I think something and again I reject it.
Dr. Weir: Well, you also react too.
Prabhupāda: You can say what you like but the function of the mind is flickering. Just like when Arjuna was advised by Kṛṣṇa to train the mind by meditation, by yoga system. He said that "Kṛṣṇa, it is very difficult for me." Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi balavad dṛḍham (BG 6.34). My mind is very, I mean to say, agitated. I think to control the mind is as impossible as controlling the wind. Cañcalaṁ hi manaḥ kṛṣṇa pramāthi ba..., vāyor iva suduṣkaram. And it is very difficult to (indistinct) high wind and if you want to control it, as it is impossible. Similarly I think the activities of the mind, thinking, feeling and willing, to control them is very difficult for me. So actually that is the position. So long we shall be on the mental platform there will be no fixity of conclusion. That is not possible. We have to accept something for the time being, then again reject it. Therefore all mental speculators differ. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na... A philosopher is not philosopher until he differs from other philosophers. Nāsau munir yasya mataṁ na... Unless you place a different thesis he will not be accepted as a good philosopher.
Dr. Weir: That's so. But it's only when they break out from that control by, let's say making an observation or having an intuition that isn't inherent in the system of control in which they've been brought up, that they make an advance of any sort. You see, people with... I always give this example of Sir Alexander Fleming and Freud and others. People have been trained that dirty pet traditions should be thrown away, because they're moded and they will interfere with the experiment. This happens time again whereas a man suddenly thinks, "I will have a look at this. I'll ignore that." He breaks away from this control.
Mensa Member: It wasn't anything new, simply a rearrangement of the (indistinct).
Dr. Weir: Nobody'd ever... They were controlled to reject it. This is what so often happens. Perry Mason is a wonderful example of that. A person who always picks out something that's been rejected in his, his celebrated works.
Mensa Member: I don't know if Perry Mason is...
Dr. Weir: Oh, Perry Mason is a very popular court room or trial lawyer, as they call it in America. A person called Erle Stanley Gardner has written a large number of books...
Śyāmasundara: A person's knowledge in the material world will always be imperfect no matter how much he may advance in scientific knowledge, he'll never be able to solve the problems of birth, death, disease and old age.
Dr. Weir: Yes. But I mean the American's I believe, they would say, "Of course, but so what? You can live without a country." If you start worrying about whether you'll ever be able to comprehend the intellect, you will really not get through the day.
Śyāmasundara: But the goal of life, being to become satisfied with my life, is not meant in that way.
Dr. Weir: Oh, I agree that to be satisfied with life is to cut down your desire for omniscience to be satisfied that you can only hope to do quite not, not, not all of the things you'd like to do, to comprehend quite not, not all of the things that are possible. If you are content with that you may be content to play. Otherwise you'll be one of these dreadful people that become paranoics. Because the world only pressures you (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Contentment... The death is there. If I, somehow or other, make a compromise, that is different thing. But I don't like to die. There is old age. I don't want to be old, but if I make a compromise that is a different thing. But my desire is not to become old, not to become attacked by disease, not to die. These are my desires. So I can make some compromise if unable to solve the problem. That is a different thing. But these are the problems.
Śyāmasundara: But by verbalizing this philosophy of the Absolute, it trains the student in accepting the inexperience, that which is only experienced, by leading them to that point. But certainly we have to have some verbal confirmation of this truth.
Dr. Weir: Some people, oddly enough, don't need it. Some very simple people can have a very truly spiritual life without ever needing to verbalize it usually because they had, this is where I think it's perfectly correct, they have followed some father figure or mother figure and you know, absorbed...
Śyāmasundara: Just like my child.
Dr. Weir: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: She's to that point without having any rational knowledge.
Mensa Member: There's some (indistinct) simple people also (indistinct) people like Blake, for example, or Buddha (indistinct) simple person. It's not this sort of faith, only child-like faith (indistinct) simple people.
Dr. Weir: It's is easier for them though. It's easier for the simple person because he doesn't have all these mental, complicated doubts and, you know, arguments with himself.
Mensa Member: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: It's said that as one progresses more in spiritual life he becomes simpler and more innocent, but in the beginning he may have had to comprehend it on some verbal level in order to (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: I often used say to my students that I've got to remember that if anything in life to realize the difference between simple and complicated, which is objective, and easy and difficult, which is subjective. In other words sometimes a simple thing may be terribly difficult for a person to get hold of. Whereas complicated things he may find quite easy.
Prabhupāda: So your student has to follow your instruction. That means accepts authority.
Dr. Weir: But even so, even if he's working something out for himself, it has that same..., to some people it comes terribly easily.
Prabhupāda: No. No. To accept authority does not mean one should be blind. But the real source of knowledge comes from authority.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems that just like a mother when she is training her young child, because the child is very young and not yet very advanced in intelligence, sometimes the mother uses the method of fear to train her child. So similarly, according to the consciousness of the people the doctrine of love of God has to sometimes be preached with a little element of fear so that they'll accept it.
Prabhupāda: That creation of fearfulness may be sometimes not fact but fearfulness is there according to our actions. That everyone has got experience. Just like if you steal, then you go to jail. It is a fact. It is not a creation of fearfulness. It is a fact. If you contaminate some disease, then the typhoid or any other disease, you contaminate. So there is suffering and that is really fearfulness, that is not a false creation. So sometimes there are false creation, but actually for our misdeeds we have to suffer, that's a fact.
Devotee (4): I think if there is so much fear being preached in Christianity originally the Old Testament was the testament of the vengeful God and the New Testament was supposed to be the love of Christ. So if there is so much fear being preached it seems to be a reflection of individual consciousness more than the religion. They are preaching so much fear, it would seem to stem from their own activities, that maybe they do have this fear rather than the true reflection of the religion that Christ was teaching. He was supposedly (indistinct) to take up the sins of his disciples and to help them lead the nice life and lead them back. He said, he referred to them as his flock. So he was taking the role of a protector and yet the Christians you speak to, they talk about hanging you over hell by a thin thread that can be burnt away at any second. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: He said the Christians... (break)
Prabhupāda: But generally the Christians they are very much confident that all of our sinful actions they have been absorbed by Lord Jesus Christ so we can do anything.
Prabhupāda: There was monarchy, the kings were very responsible. Therefore, the kings were known as rājarṣi. Rājarṣi, rāja ṛṣi, rājarṣi, this is compound word. (indistinct) king supervising the administration of the state, still his character was just like a ṛṣi, (indistinct) great sage. That was the qualification of the king. Therefore... Also Vedic civilization, even up to Maharaja Parīkṣit, the government was monarchy. At the present moment, practically all monarchical state is abolished. Even there is some monarchy... Formerly... (indistinct) just like in England, the Queen, she is powerless. Actually, the Queen has no power. People have taken away the power. Here also there is the (indistinct) Jaipur. Actually, they are the owner of the state, Jaipur state, the old state, at least five hundred years old, this state. (indistinct) It is the kingdom of Maharaja Mansingh, former Mansingh, who was commander-in-chief of emperor (indistinct).
But now they have no power. The people have taken away the power. But according to Vedic civilization, this people's government is not sanctioned. Democracy. Democracy is not sanctioned. But in the Kali-yuga, nobody will be a standard king. Anybody, by hook and crook, if he captures the royal throne, he becomes king. That is predicted in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Formerly, only the kṣatriyas were the kings. But at the present moment, because the institution of varṇāśrama-dharma is topsy-turvy, practically no more existing, everyone in this age is calculated to the śūdras. So therefore, there is struggle, who will capture the power? We see practically in political field, the people are interested for capturing the power, but they are not interested... Formality. So they put their manifesto before the election, that we shall serve you in this way and that way. But because they are simply busy to keep their position in the political power...
Just like recently there was fight between two political parties, and represented by two big men, Viśvanātha Dās and Hare Kṛṣṇa Mahatattva. Both of them learned men, lawyers, but they are fighting like cats and dogs. So formerly therefore, there was no such thing as democracy. A king, there must be one king responsible. But he was guided by the ministers and learned brāhmaṇas, sages. There was a body to guide him, to train him. Therefore, the monarchical government was perfect. Now here is a story of Vena Maharaja. His father was very (indistinct) it is usual, very nice king. But his son, this Vena, born of a bad mother, he was not good. He was killing unnecessarily animal, even men, because he was prince. So he would play with his friends and if there is any fault on the part of his friends, he will at once kill. And because he was prince, son of the king, nobody could take any steps. So the king was very much perturbed within his mind how to train this boy to become future king. But he was not successful. He was not successful. Therefore, being too much depressed and disgusted, he left home. He left home, let the things take place as it is.
Prabhupāda: Man and woman. So if you want to get liberation from this material world, then that attachment should be reduced to nil. Otherwise, simply for that attachment, you'll have to take birth and rebirth, either as human being or as demigod or as an animal, as a serpent, as a bird, as a beast. You have to take birth. So this basic principle of attachment, increasing, is not our business. It is decreasing. Pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalam. This is the general tendency, but if one can reduce and stop it, that is first class. Therefore our Vedic system is that first of all a boy is trained as a brahmacārī, no sex life. Brahmacārī. He goes to the teacher's home. (pause—a devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa over loudspeaker is very loud.) Who is this? Stop it. (break) The whole principle is, Vedic principle is, to reduce it, not to increase it. Therefore the whole system is varṇāśrama-dharma. Our, the Indian system is called varṇa and āśrama, four spiritual orders and four social orders. The social order is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa. Uh, this is spiritual order. And social order is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. So under this system the regulative principles are so nice that even one has got the tendency for enjoy material life, he is so nicely molded that at last he gets liberation and goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is the process. So sex life is not required on principle, but because we are attached to that, therefore there are some regulative principles.
Bob: But you have removed yourself from karmic influences. If I was to remove myself from karmic influences, would our souls be the same or different?
Prabhupāda: Soul is the same. Just like you are under certain conception of life at the present moment. Just like your these countrymen. They were under certain conception of life. But by training they have taken another conception of life. So the ultimate training is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is perfection.
Bob: If two people are Kṛṣṇa conscious, is their soul the same?
Prabhupāda: Soul is always the same.
Bob: In each person. In each person is it the same?
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Soul, as spirit soul, pure soul, they are all equal. Even in animal. Therefore it is said, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ (BG 5.18), means those who are actually learned, they do not see the outward covering, either human being or animal.
Prabhupāda: That's very natural. It is costly here. But these children and their parents also very much interested. So I think you should have a nice institution here to train the children in this country. And after their education, they may take to any line of livelihood. That doesn't matter. But the foundation... Just like in our Vedic system, first of all brahmacārī. That brahmacārī system is very nice. Even Kṛṣṇa, God Himself, He has nothing to learn. He is abhijñā. In the Vedas He is described as abhijñā: He knows everything. But just to teach us, He also became a brahmacārī in the Gurukula. Lord Rāmacandra, He also accepted a guru, Vasiṣṭha. So that is our Vedic system. Anybody may be anything, but the process is tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to learn the value of life, spiritual value of life, one must go to a guru. Tad vijñānārtham. In order to understand the spiritual value of life one must go to a guru. Gurum evābhigacchet. What is that guru? Śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham: "He is well learned in Vedic literature," and brahma-niṣṭham, "and firm faith in the Supreme Personality of Godhead." These are the two qualifications of guru. He must know all the Vedic conclusions, śrotriyam, not that he has to read, but he must hear from the authoritative sources. Just like Arjuna is hearing from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the most authoritative personality. So similarly, everyone has to hear either from Kṛṣṇa or from His bona fide representative. That is śrotriyam. And the result will be that after becoming student of such bona fide guru, one will be firmly fixed up in God consciousness. That is the result, firmly fixed up. Now, these boys from foreign countries, according to our geographical arrangement, they are foreigners. But we don't see anything foreign. We see every land belongs to Kṛṣṇa and everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. So we have no such distinction. But still, from materialistic point of view, these boys and girls, they, three or four years ago they did not know what is this word Kṛṣṇa. But now they are so perfectly devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and nobody can deviate them. If somebody says that "You give up this Kṛṣṇa consciousness and take..." Now here is Śyāmasundara. His father is very, very rich man, young man. He is always canvassing him that—he is only son—that "You come, do business. You take millions of dollars, whatever you like." He is not going. There are many like that.
Prabhupāda: You cannot expect many disciples, but still, there are two thousand. Because I have got so many conditions and the fact is so difficult to understand, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They have forgotten Kṛṣṇa, they have forgotten God, and I am trying to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is a very difficult job. I have to shed my blood three tons before I make one convinced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is my experience. I have to talk with him, especially these Europeans and Americans. They do not accept anything so blindly. They try to... I am always being questioned, even in my tooth(?) Question, question, question. That's nice. Inquisitive, they want to know. So I give them answers. I have got four secretaries always with me. They are giving answers. So to become Kṛṣṇa... Especially in Europe and America, when I make this condition that you cannot have illicit sex, you cannot have intoxication, you cannot meat eat, er, you cannot eat meat, you cannot have gambling... This is their daily affair. This is their life. Even Lord Zetland refused, "Oh, we cannot give up these things." So I am controlling them in this way. Still, they are coming. So it is very difficult job. Still, there are many thousands, and they are so sincere that if I ask them that... This boy is going to Red China. I am sending him. You see? So I have asked them, "You go there. You go there." They go even at the risk of life. Yes. It is the duty of the Indians to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, but they are preaching very nicely. I am training these foreigners. They are doing this duty. It is the duty of the Indians. It is their culture. But they are satisfied only... If one young man gets a nice wife and a little bit of money, oh, he says, "My life is successful." Therefore I went away. I approached many gentlemen. "Please, you have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall make him a real brāhmaṇa." "Swamiji, (Hindi)." He does not know the value. Therefore I left India, hopeless. And Kṛṣṇa has given me chance, very good chance. Now they are appreciating. When I go to India they become surprised, "Swamiji, how you have done this thing?" This is the reason.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. Today the superior training and intelligence. No so-called gentleman will hear. (indistinct) attention continually. Nobody will hear. They come and hear, they go on. But they were hearing very seriously. Was it not?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Questions were intelligent. So all these frustrated boys and girls in the Western world, they are all good candidate. You have to organize to give them; they are searching after.
Śyāmasundara: It seems like that it's the nature of all living entities to be mad after something.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Love. That I explained—love. We have got our love in store. But instead of loving Kṛṣṇa, we have distributed the love in so many ways, and frustrated. Love is there in store. That is reserved for Kṛṣṇa. And we are trying to love Kṛṣṇa, that I explained. Why I am loving this body and this apartment? Ultimately he goes to Kṛṣṇa. But that you do not know. You are actually trying to love Kṛṣṇa. But because nobody is giving him Kṛṣṇa, he's crying.
Kīrtanānanda: That's, I think, Śrīla Prabhupāda, there's a group in Cleveland, Ohio.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Kīrtanānanda: There is a colored lady who is leading a group, and they're dressing in dhotīs and saris, and uh, they're doing some...
Prabhupāda: So you just train them.
Kīrtanānanda: They're doing some disturbance to the temple there. And they are here. They've come to New York.
Prabhupāda: Ah, so, what do they want?
Kīrtanānanda: They want to see you.
Prabhupāda: Why? He is not my student. So the GBC unders may see and do the needful. All affairs, how can I see everyone?
Kīrtanānanda: No. You..., I don't think you should.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh.
Sumati Morarjee: This small girl, whatever you have got, they can come twice or four or four times, three times a week. This Manipuri girl comes.
Prabhupāda: No, we are opening here in America, one school for training small children to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Sumati Morarjee: Yes, so I told Swamiji. This Girirāja to come to our school, and tell them all my political stories, and tell them make them (indistinct) and all that. I hope he has started.
Devotee: Yes.
Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is your name?
Sumati Morarjee: His name is Mr.Girish Joshi. He is from Dacca.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see.
Sumati Morarjee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Now, in future, in Joshi family Lord Kṛṣṇa will appear as Kalki.
Prabhupāda: Your real dimension is mentioned there that you are a spiritual atom. The measurement is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. That is the seed, or basic principle. Now, on that small particle of spirit soul we have developed this body. We have got human bodies, other has got the elephant body, other has got the mountainous body, but this is external. The real seed is that one ten-thousandth part of the hair. Similarly, as you have developed this material body under different consciousness, similarly when we give up the material connection we shall develop our spiritual body, and in that spiritual body we shall be able to enter the kingdom of God, back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position. This body you have to give up, today or tomorrow or one hundred years after. You have to give it up. The Bhagavad-gītā says after giving up this body, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9), after giving up this body he does not accept any more material body. Then what happens to him? Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9), he comes to Me. So "He comes to Me" means just like in your country one who comes to you becomes citizen. He must have some particular qualities or conditions fulfilled, then he will be accepted as citizen or immigrant. Similarly, if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must develop our dormant spiritual qualities, and that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It is the training period for going back to home, back to Godhead. So that after giving up this body or after this time's death, others who are dying they do not know what next life they are getting. They, although they are proud of education, but they do not discuss what is the constitutional position of the soul, how he is transferring from one body to another, how it is to be done. This science is unknown to the modern education. Is it not? They do not know. They simply speculate. That is the defect of modern educational system, and actually everyone is seeking for spiritual emancipation. Therefore in your country, in spite of so many big, big universities, you are producing hippies, hopeless population. Am I saying right or not? Your are university teacher. I have seen in so many universities.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee: He's like to know something about your childhood.
Prabhupāda: I was (indistinct) ...a devotee (indistinct) ...my childhood. My father was a devotee and he trained me....
Frenchman: Are you happy? (devotees laugh)
Prabhupāda: What do you think? What do you think? I'm happy or unhappy? (indistinct microphone is faulty) ...this wrong conception should be... (indistinct) We should know our real identity. Then everything will be all right. We are going on in the wrong concept of life. Therefore people are not happy. So (indistinct) ...spiritual master... (indistinct) If people accept... (indistinct) They'll be happy.
Frenchman: (indistinct) ...history of many masters and many great teachers such as Jesus Christ and many others... (indistinct) ...come to... (indistinct) ...message. (indistinct) ...today on the same level.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because from God's side there is always an attempt to make the people right. As soon as they're wrongly directed, some messenger comes like Jesus Christ or Buddha or, before Him, Lord Kṛṣṇa. So what we are preaching that is not new. It is God consciousness. And all the great messiahs they came. But the thing is that people are changing in their different education mentalities. So we have to present things in such a way that intelligent person can accept the old teachings in the western countries. Like Lord Jesus Christ... Either they're not being followed or they're not properly understood because in London I saw hundreds of churches are vacant. That means that it's so practical that people have no more interest in Christianity or the Christian people could not convince them of the spiritual necessity of life. Many churches are for sale. That's not a good sign. That means people have lost interest in spiritual life but fortunately the younger generation, they are taking to this spiritual movement.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) The, our present conditional life is rebellious. We have rebelled against the authority of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord. It is very simple thing. Just like a person, a citizen, if he becomes rebellious, then he is arrested and put into custody, and his life becomes conditioned, he has no freedom. Similarly, as soon as we are rebellious to the authority of the Supreme Lord, we are captured by māyā—that is also an energy of Kṛṣṇa—and we become conditioned. So this is our position. So in this conditional life we can never be happy, that's a fact. So we have to transcend this conditional life and again become engaged in our constitutional position. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now our consciousness is polluted. We are thinking different way. Just like a madman thinks that..., sometimes he says, "I am the king." He stands sometimes in the midst of the road: "Stop, I order you!" Does he not? Madman. (laughs) Nobody cares for him, but he says, thinks like that. Similarly, under the spell of this illusory energy, we are thinking differently. Somebody, I am thinking "I am Indian," you are thinking "Englishman," he is thinking "American." I am thinking "I am proprietor of this," I am thinking "I am the master of this." So many ways. These things are all madman's proposition, that's all. So this madness can go when we actually surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then we can understand things as they are. So we are training our students in that way. If anyone is serious, then he can make his life successful, even during this span of life. So I'm very glad that you have got this attitude. So it is very simple thing. Hm? There is a Bengali verse, (Bengali). Just like a person ghostly haunted, he speaks so many nonsense, up to somebody's declaring "I am God." First of all "I am this; I am that. I am this; I am that. I want to become this. I want to become this." And when he is frustrated with everything, then he says, "I am God." That is also another illusion. How you can become God? So, insanity. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means sanity, that's all. So to come to that position of sanity, Lord Caitanya has given us very simple method: chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. If anyone sincerely chants without any offense, then his life is successful. So what is your name?
Ian Polsen: Ian Polsen.
Prabhupāda: Of course there are good men and bad men, and good men are taking to this movement because it is a good movement. "Good" means not having illicit sex, not eating meat, not indulging in intoxication, and not indulging in gambling. If anyone observes these four principles, he is considered a good man, and if he does not observe them, he is a bad man. So good men will take to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, and bad men will not. We give distinct rules on how to become good, for if one does not become good, how can he understand God, who is all good? First we must become good men; then we can understand God. God is all good, and if we don't become good we cannot understand Him. That's all. It's up to us to make the choice. The past, present and future are open for everyone. There is no restriction; no one says, "This class of men shall be good, and this class of men shall be bad." Anyone can become good. If we educate a child nicely, he becomes good, but if we train him foolishly, he becomes a rascal. It is the duty of the government, of the father and of the teachers to make everyone good. If the government is bad, if the father is bad, and the society is bad—how can the child be good? Everywhere the government, father and society are bad; and therefore we are producing bad men, and therefore there is no peace and prosperity.
Devotee: That's right.
Guest (1): So after at least one year later according some occupational training and devotion and can initiated, initiate. Not now.
Devotee: There's... No. There's first initiation and second initiation. First initiation means that you are able to chant sixteen rounds and follow those four rules.
Guest (1): Hm. Yes. Cardinal sins.
Devotee: Like that. After six months following then you get first initiation. After one more year, then you get this thread if you...
Guest (1): Oh yes.
Devotee: This is after one year. First initiation is after six months.
Guest (1): And this is...
Devotee: After one year.
Guest (1): ...like a special prize. This (indistinct) master. But this is essential and this initiation (indistinct) after novitiate.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...I'll go and take rest.
Devotee: O.K.
Prabhupāda: So he'll explain, I'm going to take rest.
Śyāmasundara: The whole thing is that we're sort of at a crisis in India, in terms of our presence here. Our prestige has hit an all-time low simply because of our conduct, that's all. Not because of our teaching, or because we are white, or anything like that. It's just because of our conduct. It's been so bad. Abominable. We don't in any way compare with the Indian sannyāsīs in our conduct. So how can we expect to honor Śrīla Prabhupāda if we conduct ourselves like that? So it's part of our responsibilities as the leaders not to avoid it, not to avoid the other devotees, but to train them now, begin training them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the Vaiṣṇava training. Now we should have our routine work. Just like here, punctually, as soon as I see seven, I ask, "When is he coming?" (indistinct). As soon as (indistinct), immediately I ask. So there may be more (indistinct), but the routine work must be followed. If somebody is slipping, the kīrtana is going on (indistinct) morning, (indistinct) is going on. So he maybe said that if you sleep like that then you cannot do it.
Devotee: I said that to that boy previously. I told him not to do...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but why you (indistinct) something, pour water on his body?
Devotee: Simply to wake him.
Prabhupāda: You should not do anything which may provoke some kind of...
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So, best thing was to say that he is not in good (indistinct) now, say to me that he is incorrigible. (indistinct) He may be one day, once, twice, if he does not follow, then you shall ask him just to please leave this place. That's all. That should be offered. We should also... The police said that when I told him that our regulation is that everyone should get up at four, so he immediately, "I don't see anyone who is rising at four." Nobody. What can I answer?
Prabhupāda: When he is incorrigible. First of all you have to try to correct him and... That is preaching. Our preaching means that people are useless, we have to train them in such a way they may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is our management. But if he is completely incorrigible, then he will be asked to leave. Otherwise it is not our business that as soon as we see something he is doing wrong..., that he must be trained, by our example, by our teaching, by our word, śānta yaṁ cinvanti kutiḥ (?). By word, by example, he should be corrected. If I cannot correct him by my words and example, that is also my (indistinct). Because they are, they are, you cannot expect that everyone has come here, sādhu. It is not that. We collect from ordinary men, but we have to make him sādhu. That is preaching. That is preaching. That you have to do tactfully. Not that because one is incorrigible... After trying all our ways, if he is still incorrigible, then you can ask. Not that for paltry reason he cannot be..., "Get out." That "get out," if you make, then everything has to be "get out." That is not the policy. Policy is first of all to correct him. That is preaching. As far as possible by example, by teaching, by everything.
Devotee (2): And it goes up very quickly because the people are automatically attracted. And then you teach them, you train them. So less Americans and just one or two people who want to manage and then start with the people here, the Indian people. And as they develop and become strong, then develop a center. It may take a long time but it will be solid. It will be more solid then. Just bring a bunch of Americans here and then the whole thing just falls to pieces. And then we ruin our reputation in that particular area where we want to open a...
Prabhupāda: Then what is your suggestion?
Devotee (2): That we start a small center and then you develop it gradually with less, with less inexperienced people...
Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: We've had a small center here for nearly a year, eight months.
Devotee (2): Well we're not saying that it, he's not saying that that's going to succeed, but at least it may not be as much of a travesty. Whether or not we're going to succeed at all in India in getting Indians to listen to what we are saying, that's another whole point.
Devotee (3): At least we won't be killing ourselves. At least we won't be making it so that in the future we will have to leave India. We'll be asked to leave, our visas will be taken away and we'll be asked to leave. These things can happen very easily. It is not a, it is not a, it's not an impossible thing. There are places in the world where we can't go already. Singapore. These things have happened. So I feel we should be very, very careful, selective, about who we let manage...
Prabhupāda: At Singapore our men cannot enter.
Śyāmasundara: ...they're only here temporarily. They're just passing through. So it's very difficult, I know, but still we have to try to train somehow...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we cannot establish very big establishment. Because they come like a tourist.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Devotee (2): If the temple is constructed, it would have to be more rigidly controlled. It would have to be managed by people that by their preaching and by their Kṛṣṇa consciousness can make it so that the people who come and stay in that temple will want to practice bhakti. It can't be a negative (indistinct) thing. The negative motivation is not going to keep a person.
Prabhupāda: Now, such camps, because you are not established, so, under the circumstances, what is to be done? To reduce our devotees?
Śyāmasundara: We have our base in Calcutta, we have our base in Bombay, those two places.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Śyāmasundara: Those are important cities in the world.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana, as long as our temple is not constructed, we are minimized. So therefore automatically there is no question of negotiating (indistinct).
Devotees: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee (2): Because not everyone is going to want to be, uh, you know, it's really, if the temple's not there where the devotees can just come and fall into the schedule and program and activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Guest (3): All Caitanya's, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's, all these things, very nicely memorized. So I'm very glad, really. At least, he's on the right path.
Prabhupāda: Everyone can be on the right path provided rightly trained. Everyone has got the right of coming to the right path.
Guest (1): I see there are a lot of young children in the āśrama. Do you run sort of a school for them all?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): You have your own school. Somebody teaches them.
Prabhupāda: Hm. They're just starting. Not yet started. But they're taking care.
Guest (1): How many children are here?
Prabhupāda: You can lie down. He's feeling sleepy. Give him some pad, and sleep there. There is pad. Go and sleep here. Let him sleep there.
Guest (1): ...effect, you know, on the mind.
Prabhupāda: So therefore we have got our school already in Dallas, to train small children like that. But there is formalities of this nationalism. What is the formalities? Eh?
Satsvarūpa: Just... It's not very difficult. It's just that we have... There is a form that we assure the other countries that we will take care of this child's lodging and all his... So we're bringing children from other countries.
Guest (3): Is it only for boys, or boys and girls?
Satsvarūpa: No, boys and girls.
Guest (3): And they are very well looked after there?
Satsvarūpa: Up to fifteen, yes.
Prabhupāda: Well, as far as possible.
Guest (3): As far as possible. Do you have a prospectus or anything about that school?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, I have literature.
Guest (3): You have literature about that school?
Prabhupāda: He's in charge.
Prabhupāda: That is what. We are preparing them so that they can read our literature which is in Sanskrit and English. As soon as they can read, that's education finished. They will understand, practical demonstration, ārati, worship of the Deity, and they play mṛdaṅga, they chant, they join Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting. They are not meant for any technology.
Guest (3): No.
Prabhupāda: No. That we do not train. We are training them to become actual devotee, brāhmaṇa. Not for become technologists. Technologists, there are many.
Guest (1): I think the spiritual element is also essential in life.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. That is the only business of human life.
Guest (1): There must be little bit of, at least little bit of spiritual element in life. Not the whole time. (break) ...I believe every (break) ...goes to this sort of school.
Guest (3): There are so many.
Prabhupāda: They have no idea.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles.) Yes. So this education is wanting. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). As soon as one understands that "I'll have to change my, this body; then what kind of body I'm going to get next life." That next inquiry will be. Then he is intelligent. Then he is intelligent. Just like one man is working somewhere. Now, notice is given that "From such and such date, your work will not be required." Then you become anxious to know: "Then what shall I do next." I have to work. So similarly, if a person understands that he's going to change this body... Just like I'm an old man. I'll have to change in, say, immediately, or say five years, ten years. But the notice is already there because I am old man. So it is my duty to think: "Then what body I'm going to take next?" That is intelligence. And we have to prepare for that. So that is also described in the Bhagavad-gītā: yānti deva-vratā devān (BG 9.25). You can prepare yourself to go the higher planetary system, where demigods live. Pitṟn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ. You can go to the Pitṛloka. Bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā. If you want to remain within this planetary system,... yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām. "And anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he comes to Me," Kṛṣṇa says. So why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). "If one comes to My place, he never comes back again in the material world." That is intelligence. Why not go back to Kṛṣṇa? But they have no intelligence. They're spoiling their life, simply living like cats and dogs. This is the position. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to save them, that "Don't go again to the cats and dogs category; go back to home, back to Kṛṣṇa." There is... Here is the possibility. Kṛṣṇa says. Why don't you take advantage of this? Kṛṣṇa says: janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ: (BG 4.9) "Anyone who tries to understand Me, Kṛṣṇa, what I am..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti (BG 4.9). Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa, one stops his rebirth in this material form. He goes back to Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are training people that "You have to take another body. So what is the use of taking...? Even if you take the body of demigod, like Brahmā, millions of years age..." That is stated in the Bhag ... ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna (BG 8.16).
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, what is the miracle. I simply present that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. And just chant His name, holy name." And they're doing that. But Indians will not do that. They'll say, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we have seen." And one, one student in Berkeley University, Indian: "Swamiji, what this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will do? We want now technology." That's all. They take it as very trifle thing. Not seriously. Although in the śāstra it is said,
They'll not take to it. So they purposefully remain ignorant, or by their misfortune, they remain ignorant. But those who are innocent, they take it, and they get the result. That's all. Fire is fire. Either you take it by understanding or not understanding, it is fire. It will act. And that is their advantage, that these European and American boys and girls, they have taken, accepted what I have said, and they follow. They're making progress. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha... (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the different stages. The śraddhā stage means faith. That faith is explained in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Faith, the Indian vernacular is viśvāsa. So Caitanya-caritāmṛta author says, "Faith means viśvāsa sudṛdha-niścaya." Faith, this is faith. When one believes firmly, sudṛdha-niś..., and with confidence. What is that? Kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta haya: "If one becomes devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then all perfection comes." If one believes in this, that is the faith. Ādau śraddhā, with this faith one has to begin. Then the faith has to be increased by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with a devotee. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Then actually executing the devotional service. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. Then all misgivings will go away. Tato niṣṭhā. Then he becomes fixed-up. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ. Then attraction. Tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ athāsaktiḥ. Then he cannot leave. Āsaktiḥ. Tato bhāvaḥ. Then ecstasy. Sādhakānām ayaṁ premṇaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet... These are the different stages of sādhaka, of a devotee, how to make progress. So in the beginning they're faithless. Faith is that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva... Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). When he captures this slogan, that "Simply by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, I shall be all-successful," this is the beginning of faith. Bhagavad-gītā creates this faith. But one who does not take even this faith, how he'll make progress. Progress means the progress of the same faith, up to the love of Godhead. That is perfection of faith. So these are the stages. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriyā tato 'nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ, athāsaktis tato bhāvaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). These are the stages. So this institution is meant for training people from different stages, and beginning with this faith, that kṛṣṇe bhakti kaile sarva-karma kṛta... "Simply by becoming devotee of Kṛṣṇa, my life will be perfect." This faith is the basic principle. So unless one comes to this basic principle of faith, there is no question of progress. So little faith, even. Not full faith. It develops by sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83), by association with the devotees. Ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgaḥ (Cc. Madhya 23.14-15). Everything is there. If we adopt, then everyone can make his life successful. There is no doubt about it. Just like if you enter into a school, if you follow the regulative principles of the school and study, you, one day, you become M.A. Where is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty? But if from the beginning, if you have no faith, then what progress you'll make? If you, from the very beginning, if you think, "What will be, this school will do me? They're learning ABCD. What...?" (laughter) There is no faith. You may call it blind faith. But that is required.
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtani na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ (BG 9.4). Although you do not find Kṛṣṇa in somewhere, but His energy is acting, there. So one who has eyes to see how Kṛṣṇa's energy is acting, he sees Kṛṣṇa. Same example. Because the Prime Minister's energy is working in that office, so the Prime Minister is there present. So everything is demonstration of the energy. Just like you are in the room, you have not seen the sun, but as soon as the sunshine is there, you know that sun is there. You see the sun through the sunshine, although it is not that sun has come into your room. The sunshine, coming of the sunshine within your room, is sufficient knowledge to know that here is sun. Sun is there. That is the Vedic statement, that you can understand there is fire when there is heat. If there is light and heat, then you can understand there is fire. That heat and light is sufficient, now, what is the heat and light? This is energy of the fire. So when Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "These material elements," bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), earth, water, fire, air, they are My energies, so if one has studied Kṛṣṇa, then as soon as He sees a great ocean, He sees Kṛṣṇa: "Oh, this is Kṛṣṇa's energy." As soon as sees a big anything, fire, water, anything, He sees Kṛṣṇa, nothing but Kṛṣṇa because He knows. Exactly in the same way, as soon as you feel heat, you know that there is fire. You don't require to see the fire. But if you feel, "Oh it is hot, oh, there must be fire." This is studying Kṛṣṇa. And this is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness, to feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa everywhere. So everything requires training, undergoing the process. Then it is possible. It is not impossible. So if you also go, the training, the process, you'll also understand. It is not difficult.
Prabhupāda: What is that higher intelligence?
Guest (1): Speech and ability to compute what you hear.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that, dog can also do. If you train dog that "If somebody, outsider comes, you bark," he'll do it.
Guest (2): The consciousness is...
Prabhupāda: And so... Real intelligence is that to know "what I am." "I do not want to suffer. Why suffering in this world is imposed upon me?" This is intelligence. Take, for example, nobody wants to die. Why death is forced upon him? Nobody wants to die. If there is now news immediately, "Now this house will collapse," immediately we shall fly away. Because we don't want to die. If we understand that this house is going to be bombed immediately, we'll immediately leave. If there is earthquake... So many things. So nobody wants to die. But death is sure. So what solution they have made? I do not want to die, and death is forced upon me. So what solution we have made. What is, what is the scientists have done in this connection? Psychologically, if I do not want to die, then I must find out some way that death will not bother me. That is intelligence. You are talking of intelligence. Therefore I am explaining what is intelligence. Intelligence means "I do not want something, but it is being forced upon me. How to check it?" That is intelligence. Actually, the whole world is going on, we do not want to suffer. But suffering is there. Three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering is called pertaining to the body and mind. I don't want to be diseased, but there is, all of a sudden, there is disease. Diarrhea. I don't want it, but it is imposed. This is suffering. Due to the body. Some discrepancies. Mind... Body's sound, but mind is not sound. Mind is "Oh, I don't feel today very nice." You see.
Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty-four hour a day, you know, exercises...
Prabhupāda: Yes, our program is like that.
Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times ārati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Kṛṣṇa. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So... Or they are going to saṅkīrtana party. That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them.
rabhupāda: No, I am not tired. I am a little old.
Mrs. Wells: We have the devil within us.
Prabhupāda: Give them prasādam.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: So our movement is we are training people to revive their original God consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Father Tanner: Can I eat this up, then?
Prabhupāda: Yes, take.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Mrs. Wells: Is it fattening?
Devotee: No.
Father Tanner: No? Is it...?
Śrutakīrti: She asked if it was fattening.
Mrs. Wells: (laughing) A joke. No.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śrutakīrti: She asked if it was fattening.
Prabhupāda: Fattening?
Śrutakīrti: Would make her heavy.
Prabhupāda: No.
Śrutakīrti: Gain weight.
Prabhupāda: You have seen all our books.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In material world we have got so many obligations.
Paramahaṁsa: For example, in devotee families, if we perform the proper principles in raising children...
Prabhupāda: No, your, your, your function is very simple. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and train your children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That's all.
Paramahaṁsa: But there's always a chance that they may not as well.
Prabhupāda: That chance is also to you also. Māyā is always there. But our duty should be like that. You become Kṛṣṇa conscious and raise your children to that standard. (indistinct) Just like we are teaching in Dallas. There is nothing extraordinary. The children are there, they're learning how to read, how to write, at the same time rising early in the morning, attending maṅgala-ārātrika, joining in the saṅkīrtana, playing mṛdaṅga, dancing, taking prasādam. (Aside:) That's all right. By such training, automatically they'll be Kṛṣṇa conscious. And then all your duties are complete. If you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then all your duty is finished.
Lord Brockway: Yes. Very, very beautiful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now we can simply study the beautiful flower, and we can come to God consciousness. How it is made, so beautiful, unless there is brain? And what is that brain? Then you come to God. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Para, the Supreme, has got so nice brain that things are happening as if natural. But no, the brain is acting, brain is acting. But His energy and brain is so nice that He hasn't got to do it personally. As soon as He desires, immediately the energy works. Just like nowadays electronic. So simply by pushing one bud, a button, thousands of business is done immediately. So if it is materially possible, just we have to think how much it is great and possible by spiritual energy. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate, na tasya kāryaṁ karaṇaṁ ca vidyate. These are the Vedic description. God hasn't got to do anything with His hands. Just like here also. A big man, he has got secretaries, officers. He simply directs, "Do this," everything is done. Similarly, the Supreme Lord, how much energy He has got, and spiritual energy, that as soon as He desires something, immediately it is done. But it is done by employing energy. Not that it has come for nothing. No. This flower, it grows. There is energy. First of all, it was bud. But we cannot see how it is growing. But the act, action is going on. Therefore it is called svā-bhāvikī-jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. There is knowledge, there is brain, there is activity. Everything is there. But it is so quick and subtle, we cannot see. We say it is nat..., it has grown naturally. No. There is brain. How nicely it is done. Whatever color is suitable, it is there. So without color, without that brush, without that brain, without that energy, how it has come? How we can think of? Even if you make an artificial flower, oh, you have to take so many colors, you have to take brush, you have to apply your brain. So it has no brain behind? Simply explaining "nature." What is that nature? The nature is the brain of Kṛṣṇa. So those who can study, they can study even from this flower what is the greatness of God. This is God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Everything he sees the hand of God. That is God consciousness. And when a man becomes God conscious, then he's qualified with all good qualities. That is God consciousness. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). If you train a person to become God conscious, then all the good qualities automatically becomes manifest in him. So why not try this? Make a school simply to make people God conscious.
Prabhupāda: So we pay for that.
Jesuit Priest: I know, but you call him, don't you? You want him to be, you want the doctor in existence.
Prabhupāda: So does it mean to say that because we require necessary, we have to take education of medical man?
Mother: But you don't train people to be medical men.
Prabhupāda: No, first of all, if we can get it easily...
Mother: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also.
Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from... When there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything.
Mother: Yes. Well, as I say...
Prabhupāda: It does not...
Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse.
Prabhupāda: You are asking us "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take?
Mother: Because if everybody...
Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the... If I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me...
Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self-supporting. You should be...
Prabhupāda: Let me engage my time for understanding God.
Mother: You should be self-supporting in that way.
Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find.
Mother: ...you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no?
Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question.
Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question?
Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.
Mother: Well, tell me about the books you have translated. Are there some more to translate?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: Well, one day you will die. Now who will translate them then? Continue the translating?
Prabhupāda: There are many. There are many. They are being trained up. There are many.
Mother: Ah, yes. So people are being trained. Ah. This is what I'm asking you.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: Well, I explained that to you earlier, that we have our classes.
Prabhupāda: We are training every day.
Mother: But then, this is languages. You've got to, you've got to study languages. You can't just be taught...
Revatīnandana: Yes. So a few of us, so the few of us who have an aptitude for Sanskrit language are studying Sanskrit language.
Prabhupāda: We are teaching Sanskrit, we are teaching English. Especially. Especially we are giving training to our boys to learn simply English and Sanskrit. Then they will be help. By learning Sanskrit, they will be able to read...
Mother: Latin? And...? What...?
Prabhupāda: There is no need of... One language sufficient. English language, practical...
Mother: Ah, but then that is one-sided then, isn't it?
Revatīnandana: Most of us don't even study Sanskrit very much.
Revatīnandana: Actually, most of the Sanskrit, much of that work is done by one of Prabhupāda's disciples now. He handles much of the Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are being trained.
Revatīnandana: It's a mechanical process, after all. But the translation, that requires not only knowledge of the language, it requires spiritual realization.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Revatīnandana: And the spiritual translation is done by Prabhupāda. Not just from knowledge of Sanskrit, but from spiritually realized knowledge. That is the qualification to put the meaning into any language. You have to have realized the message.
Jesuit Priest: Oh, I agree. Certainly our, the great, in the western church, all the translations of the Gospels and the Old and New Testament is done by, for the most part, by men who were saints, and, in other words, it wasn't merely their knowledge of the language, but their incredible closeness to God, in everyone of them, Garems(?) and Augustine and all the great men...
Revatīnandana: The most recent translation accepted by the Church of England, in England, was done by Oxford scholars. Saintly men? I know some of them. I don't think they're actually saintly men.
Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know anything about that.
Revatīnandana: Well, it's the modern... It's accepted by the Church of England and most other Protestant churches in England. It's the new English Bible.
Jesuit Priest: Yes.
Revatīnandana: And it's recommended by all these churches for their followers to read. And it's translated by scholars, Oxford scholars.
Jesuit Priest: Yes. I see. I take your point, that you can have a translation which is purely academic and a translation which is not merely academic, but has a, sort of a spiritual experience behind it.
Revatīnandana: Um-huh.
Jesuit Priest: In fact, I can say, by... I'm a Catholic priest, and by and large, I think our men, who are to, doing the translations are pretty, like, good chaps anyhow.
Revatīnandana: Hmh. So if, if the translators and the knowledge are adequate, then why is it, as Mrs. Christie just pointed out that so many young people are interested instead in false religious experience of LSD?
Jesuit Priest: Well, I wouldn't know. Because, I would say, because there's some kind of inadequacy in their lives. There's something missing, and that, the thing which is missing, is what we in the Catholic Church call the life of grace, the supernatural. Somehow, something's gone wrong somewhere. And so, they, lots of the young people today...
Prabhupāda: That, that I was trying to explain, that nobody can understand God and God's conception, being sinful.
Prabhupāda: So the process of enlightening the living entities, especially the human being, because in the animal form of life, one cannot be enlightened. Neither the animal can understand what is God.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: It is only the human being who can understand. If he's trained, then he can come to God consciousness.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, yes, It is so.
Prabhupāda: So this creation is meant for the forgotten souls to give them a chance for reviving their God consciousness.
Yogeśvara: Is it clear?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, it is clear. It is very, very clear. Very clear.
Prabhupāda: And for this business, sometimes God personally comes. Sometimes He sends His representative, His son, or His devotee, His servant. This is going on. God wants that these forgotten souls should come back to home, back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: Now there are many atheists.
Cardinal Danielou: Many atheists, yes. In France, we have this problem. In France, the greatest parts of the, of, of children are baptized and trained...
Prabhupāda: Give me little more.
Cardinal Danielou: In France, the greatest part of children are baptized and receive a religious education, the religious training, the great part. The atheism is chiefly, amongst intellectuals. Not...
Prabhupāda: Ah! Not in the mass.
Cardinal Danielou: Not in the... No, not in the mass.
Prabhupāda: The same thing....
Cardinal Danielou: The intellectuals are always a little extravagant. And the mass, the mass, remain religious. Yes, yes. Very religious, very religious.
Yogeśvara: But still we find that the French young people today are at the head of all the revolutionary philosophies and movements.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. But it is not the majority of the young men and this revolutionary spirit is amongst many youths, some research, research of the Absolute. Some young men are communist and Marxist, surely. But many youths, today have a spirit of research factually. In, insatisfied with actual religious forms, but receives any religious experience, a spiritual experience...
Prabhupāda: That is the latest thing. They are now disgusted with these religious rituals without philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So you get enough food by working three months. But they'll not work in the field. They'll work in the factory. The... Now the world situation is there that they have invented so many artificial work. So people are embarrassed with this kind of work. He doesn't find any time.
Anna Conan Doyle: He's not trained.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Anna Conan Doyle: He's not trained.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is the... So if we make our living condition very simple, there is enough time, enough time. But we don't say that you go back to the primitive stage of life. That is not possible. We simply request that wherever you are, simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is no difficulty. Then everything will be clear. And we are not charging anything for that, that: "You give me so many pounds. I'll give you a mantra." Not like that. (break) There is no necessity. Unnecessarily they are killing animals, and becoming sinful. So they have created their own field of activities just to become bereft of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Formerly, in the human society, there was no slaughterhouse. If they wanted to kill one animal, they went to the forest or anywhere. Kill one animal and eat it. But here it is now regular business. Somebody's supplying cows regularly by increasing livestock. That has become his business. And somebody's killing. So we have invented so many things like that, simply for sinful activities. How we can become happy? It is not possible. So many big, big factories for producing beer and liquor. But they have become accustomed to this. And the net result is now we increasing the hippie population. This irresponsible life is producing children, most irresponsible, brainless. Yes. But they have no eyes to see, that "How we are degrading. This is our children." I have been to Amsterdam.
David Lawrence: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is their rascal's philosophy. They have no idea that by training one can forget sex life. So if you forget sex life, where is the question of abortion? Where is the question of abortion? But they cannot do that. Therefore, it is said adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram (SB 7.5.30). By nonrestricted sense enjoyment they are gradually going to the animal, lower grade of life. They cannot explain why there are so many varieties of life. They cannot explain. So this killer of baby within the womb, so the result will be that this man who is, I mean to say, indulging in abortion, he'll be put into the womb, and somebody will kill him. And as many wombs or babies he has killed, he'll have to take so many lives and being killed. So much so that it will be rather impossible for him for hundreds of years not to see the light. He'll remain in the womb and being killed. Does not know the nature's law. One cannot violate the nature's law. You can violate the state law. Suppose you kill somebody, you can escape by trick. But you cannot escape nature's law. As many times you have killed, so many times you have to be killed within the womb. This is nature's law.
Prabhupāda: Is there mathematical calculation?
Guest: I know that it's ah... I mean things reproduce. Life is not so fixed, not so rigid. But one does have to be trained, it's true. Training is, some people can understand and some people cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: That is difference of understanding.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The fact is true. But if I cannot understand, that is my misfortune.
Guest: Yes. And if I can't understand what this is the end of the... So yes, it's the same. I think this is right.
Prabhupāda: God is fact. But if somebody cannot understand, it is his misfortune.
Guest: Yes. And another time, another place.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān (CC Madhya 8.58). Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.
Lady: But originally it wasn't like that. Suppose if you are born into brāhmaṇa, fortunately, then you become brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is not. No, no, no. No, that is not śāstra. That is a... Lately, this brahminical class, they made it. Just like he is a manager in the bank. His son does not mean that he is also manager. He must be qualified to become a manager. He has got the facility. Because he is son of a bank manager, so he can get some facilities, father's training. He can quickly become a manager. Others may take time. Similarly, a person born in brāhmaṇa family, if his father is actually brāhmaṇa, then automatically he is getting the brahminical training at home. This satya, śama, dama, titikṣā, ārjavam (BG 18.42), this qualification. Because naturally the children follow the father. So if the father is a real brāhmaṇa, then he naturally becomes. But if by chance he develops the śūdra quality, then he must be accepted as śūdra, not as a brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). If the qualities, brahminical qualities are found somewhere else in śūdra or a vaiśya, then he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly if śūdra qualities are found in the son of a brāhmaṇa, he should be accepted as śūdra. It is the quality, not the birth. That is not a fact. They have made it now like that. Because without any qualification, if he can become a brāhmaṇa, why he should not take the advantage? That has fallen down the Vedic culture in India, when it came to the caste system. It is not the caste system by birth. In Bhagavad-gītā it is said, "By quality..." guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Read that, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: You were Surat? He was asking, that bābājī, that, "Learn Sanskrit then you'll understand Bhagavad-gītā." So I immediately asked him that, "You go away, you go away from this place."
Guest: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: So he supposed.... I went to preach in the Western countries. Did they know Sanskrit? Then how they have become Vaiṣṇavas? It is a training, it is a training. It doesn't matter whether you know Sanskrit or not Sanskrit. But some rascals inquire, "Do you know Sanskrit, otherwise you cannot become..."
Guest: It is good to learn as many languages as you can, but if not that doesn't matter anything.
Prabhupāda: So far I am concerned, although people say I am Sanskrit scholar, but we are not educated as Sanskrit scholar. Whatever Sanskrit we have learned from this book only. A Sanskrit scholar is different, he learns grammar 14 years.
Guest: A waste of time, a waste of life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then other side, he takes a whole time, you see?
Guest: (indistinct) greatest Romanian poet and he studies Sanskrit and (indistinct) he's worshiped like Shakespeare in Romania. And (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In Germany there are many Sanskrit scholars.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.
Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."
Prabhupāda: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupāda: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupāda: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.
Prajāpati: Well, it was a very big issue several years ago. They used to have a prayer at the beginning of each school day. But then one demoniac lady, one atheist, she, by her, simply by her will-power got the Supreme Court to rule that unconstitutional. Now prayers are not allowed in schools anymore unless we make an amendment to the constitution, saying "Yes, we can have a prayer in school." Then it would be allowed.
Prabhupāda: Even prayers are allowed, unless there is scientific knowledge of God, that will not help. The prayer's still going on in the churches, but what improvement? They have become hackneyed. It requires training.
Prajāpati: Then our political campaign should be educating the people in general as much as possible in the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is taking a chance to educate people.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We may not be successful in the beginning, but it is a good way of preaching, exposing to the general mass.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break)
Nara-nārāyaṇa: As they elect the congressmen generally to solve different social problems which are existing in the society, so in our campaigning process, should we try to show them practical application of the philosophy for solving all their social problems, or should we preach philosophically?
Prabhupāda: No. We should preach that "Stop these things. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating." Practically you teach them. This is the real social problem.
Prabhupāda: That is not our life, to become an impostor. It must be real person. By training, yaḥ śāstra-vidhiṁ siddhiḥ, by training under the teaching of a bona fide spiritual master, the śāstra, and then you'll automatically, the more you become a sincere, I mean to say, servitor of the spiritual master, the more you become qualified to become a teacher in the future. Otherwise where is your qualification? You may cheat others that you are teacher, but you are not actually teacher. You have no lesson, no education. A cheating is another thing. But practically to become a teacher... Just like in a school, teacher... A teacher is appointed. When the certificate is there that he has passed M.A. examination, and he has undergone the training, B.T., Bachelor training, then he's appointed: "Yes, you can be a teacher." And then a bogus man, he can be... He cannot be accepted as teacher. So that is going on. A bogus man, they're becoming teachers. Therefore the world condition is so degraded. A cheater is taking the place of teacher. Therefore the whole world is degraded.
Prabhupāda: So destiny is that we should devote our life for awakening Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This human life is meant for that purpose. By nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ (BG 3.27), nature is bringing us. As soon as we become sinful, we are dropped down to suffer the sequence of sinful life in different varieties. Again, just like a man, criminal, is put into the jail, but when his time is finished, again he is made free. Similarly, the cycle of birth and death, dehāntara-prāptiḥ, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13), one after another, is going on. So the animal life means reaction of sinful life, and upper class of life, demigods, means result of pious life. Two kinds of things are there, sinful and pious, through the cycle of birth is going on. But this human form of life or above human form of life, it is a chance for understanding the real value of life, and therefore for human beings there are guidances, these Vedas, Purāṇas, Vedānta-sūtra. It is meant for the human beings, not for the cats and dogs. Anādi-bahirmukha jīva kṛṣṇa bhuli gela ataeva kṛṣṇa veda-purāṇa kaila (CC Madhya 20.117). So it is recommended in the human form of life, first of all training as a brahmacārī, then he may remain as gṛhastha for sometime. The life is divided into four parts, twenty-five years. Suppose I live a hundred years: twenty-five years to become brahmacārī, remain as brahmacārī, and twenty-five years to remain as gṛhastha, family man, and twenty-five years as vānaprastha and twenty-five years as sannyāsa. This is system, Vedic system. Sannyāsa means vānaprastha is the prepāration for sannyāsa, and sannyāsa means completely dedicated to the service of Kṛṣṇa. This is our system. Just like you are spirit soul. Our business is not here. Our business in the spiritual world. Here, by circumstances you have fallen into the material condition, but if you take "This is all-in-all our duty," that is not advised in the śāstra. It is circumstances. We have fallen into, under certain circumstances, so we have to take care of. The real duty is to how to save myself from this material entanglement.
Prabhupāda: Three men (indistinct).
Guru dāsa: Very nice.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) they do gorgeous, most gorgeous. You learn to do like that here in Vṛndāvana.
Guru dāsa: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Very gorgeous. All decorated, (indistinct), gongs, bells, mṛdaṅgas. Keep at least twelve trained devotees. At least twelve. (indistinct) (break)
Guru dāsa: Some people make the, cut the coat to fit the pocket.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guru dāsa: Cut the coat to fit the pocket.
Prabhupāda: That's right.
Guru dāsa: Basics. Then after everything is built and nicely established, then we will increase. Very clear and very nice.
Prabhupāda: That is good. One who desires well-being(?)...
Guru dāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is also a kind of science, subtle science.
Dr. Patel: This writing, writing letters, two and two, and, and...
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are subtle sciences. These are gross sciences. There are subtle science also. Just like now mechanically you are flying. But there is science... Anything. I can fly with this stick. That is possible. Ākāśa-patana. There is a science, ākāśa-patana. Kapota-vāyu. Kapota-vāyu. Now, you can train the pigeons, and it will, you'll fly in the sky.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāyu.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And a carpet also?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: You must have read the carpet-flying in India.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they'll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they'll not be saved. The varṇāśrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varṇāśrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brāhmaṇa; one class, kṣatriya; one class, vaiśya; and one class, śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.
Passerby: Jayo!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Bhagavān: Are śūdras supposed to take sannyāsa also?
Prabhupāda: No, why?
Bhagavān: Śūdras...
Prabhupāda: Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa. Only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas, they'll be allowed to take sannyāsa.
Prabhupāda: They did not take sannyāsa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they'll think, "Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyāsī." You see? "Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brāhmaṇa." No. There must be regular training. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Jagadīśa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in a varṇāśrama society is...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: In a varṇāśrama society, are most of the citizens śūdras?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Jagadīśa: Are the majority of citizens śūdras? In a varṇāśrama society?
Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they're less. Others are big, number bigger.
Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread." And after getting it, business finished: "Now I'm liberated. Let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighās of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpur, setting aside twenty bighās for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighās of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can...?
Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is kāminī-kāñcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared—Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.
Prabhupāda: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?" What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. (break) ...especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle... What is? Opiate...? What is called?
Devotees: Opiate of the people.
Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.
Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda: Would it be for a particular age group?
Prabhupāda: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān bhāgavatān iha (SB 7.6.1). The... How... We are getting so many sannyāsīs, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.
Hṛdayānanda: How would it be different than gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: How would it differ from gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrama school or college for further developed training.
Hṛdayānanda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, or the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gītā, what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what is the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And vaiśyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.
Nitāi: Not business also?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Nitāi: The vaiśyas?
Prabhupāda: Business, this rascal business, no.
Nitāi: No?
Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: What kind of training is there for a śūdra?
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, just...
Prabhupāda: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all.
Satsvarūpa: What would he learn at the school, though?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Satsvarūpa: What would his business be at that varṇāśrama college?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, vaiśya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and ārati. And balance—he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.
Hṛdayānanda: Prabhupāda, can you say something about the training for a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are satyaṁ śamaḥ damaḥ. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... śamo damaḥ,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyaṁ śamo damaḥ śaucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?
Prabhupāda: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, they'll be teachers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. General teacher class will be the brāhmaṇas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Droṇācārya. He learned it from Droṇācārya. He was a brāhmaṇa. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.
Hṛdayānanda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varṇāśrama, say, the first teacher at the varṇāśrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...
Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.
Viṣṇujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brāhmaṇas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viṣṇujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's right. He is brāhmaṇa, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.
Hṛdayānanda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hṛdayānanda: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books?
Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ...in separate department.
Passer-by: Rādhe, Rādhe!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe."
Viṣṇujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were...
Prabhupāda: This is India.
Viṣṇujana: ...worshiping...
Prabhupāda: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries.
Hṛdayānanda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.
Hṛdayānanda: Room and board and training.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina?
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghāma, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghāma and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghāma means perspiration. (break) ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. (break) ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. (break) ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations.
Satsvarūpa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Viṣṇujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training kṣatriyas, they're training...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...
Viṣṇujana: ...vaiśyas...
Prabhupāda: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula.
Viṣṇujana: Kīrtanānanda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired.
Parivrājakācārya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there.
Viṣṇujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Pañcāyeta. It is called pañcāyeta system. (break) You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings.
Prabhupāda: That is (indistinct) fifty lakhs, twenty-five, that is beyond us. We can spare up to two lakhs, that's all. (break) ... be able to manage. (break) ...people.
Gurudāsa: Yes. The Britishers.
Prabhupāda: Britishers, they train. Just like in India, they trained. They were on the head of the administration. The Viceroy, the governor, the secretaries, the military commander, they are all Englishmen. All other, Indians. Therefore Gandhi started non-cooperation movement. That these people are ruling over us by our cooperation.
Gurudāsa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So non-cooperate with them, they will fail. And that was successful. He started non-cooperation movement, that "Don't cooperate with these Britishers," and when they saw there is now full non-cooperation, they left voluntarily. It is not possible to bring so many administrators, military strength, men, men too. Actually the British empire was expanded through the help of Indians.
Gurudāsa: Yes, they did all the work.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything.
Dr. Patel: They must be kept extremely clean or some of the diseases, you must have (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: These European, American boys, they gave up their smoking habit, drinking tea habit, all habits, meat-eating, immediately. But if we ask any Indian, he has to consider for three generations.
Dr. Patel: That is because they have been so trained from childhood.
Prabhupāda: No, no. They have been trained so (indistinct) from childhood, meat-eating, drinking wine, drinking tea, smoking, and illicit sex, but they gave up immediately.
Dr. Patel: But in hygiene also they have (indistinct) our way.
Prabhupāda: They are observing hygienic principle as far as possible, but only thing is they require little guidance.
Dr. Patel: This kitchen behind is too small, hotel, they...
Prabhupāda: No. We can make a big kitchen, we have got enough room.
Dr. Patel: Through muslin. That is the (indistinct) (break)
Prabhupāda: ...fire it, and keep it. It is all right. (break) ...no service. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: I have, you see, I have seen in England in my training days in the College of Tropical Medicine and our hospital... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...for all disease. Bhavauṣadhāc chrotra... nivṛtta-tarṣair upagīyamānāt.
Dr. Patel: I was told you are going away on sixth?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Dr. Patel: You are going... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...rent tax, about... Suppose the father is tenant.
Dr. Patel: Rent tax (indistinct). Rent tax.
Prabhupāda: If the father is tenant.
Prabhupāda: That is... Not to, not to see face, not to...
Dr. Patel: Because woman is the embodiment.
Prabhupāda: You should be trained up.
Dr. Patel: Woman is the embodiment of māyā.
Prabhupāda: Vikāra... In spite of woman, you'll not be agitated. That training required.
Dr. Patel: You... Now, now, that training is very difficult to get. I am very sorry to say that.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No, no. That training is there. We are, we are training in that way.
Dr. Patel: You must, you must have, I mean, a sort of a... You see, between the object and indriyas...
Prabhupāda: Then according to Swami Nārāyaṇa's principles, I am a fallen.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, sir.
Prabhupāda: Because I am always surrounded by young girls.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is... Swami Nārāyaṇa sitting with the women but the sādhus...
Prabhupāda: Then why you said...? Don't you see...?
Dr. Patel: Listen, you are arguing in such a way that there will be a flash between us two.
Prabhupāda: No, no. People should be trained up in such a way that in spite of (indistinct) you should not be agitated. That is, that is.
Dr. Patel: Sādhus, not sannyāsīs. (break)
Prabhupāda: In European countries, in European countries, if you restrict in that way, that will be fanaticism.
Guest (1): That is what I am telling you. It should not be done immediately like that. (break) ...it must be trained, and it will take a long time.
Prabhupāda: Why Europe? Nowadays, here also. That is not possible.
Guest (1): It is not... It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: It is simply utopian, utopian.
Dr. Patel: That is all right. It is not possible. So you are doing like this. When it was possible...,
Prabhupāda: We are, we are training that... Never mind. That is the training of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. That women may be thousands, but you see them as your mother. That's it.
Guest (1): That's all... (break)
Prabhupāda: If you become agitated even by seeing mother, then what can be done?
Guest (1): No, no, that should not be done.
Prabhupāda: Then you are a khara, go-khara.
Prabhupāda: Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya. You are suffering because you have associated with a particular type of material quality. Just like you have associated with some infectious disease. Now you are suffering. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo' sya. Why you affect...? Therefore one should remain always in sattva-guṇa. Sattva-guṇa. What is that verse in the Bhāgavata?
We have to go the platform of sattva-guṇa. Therefore these boys are being trained how to become in the sattva-guṇa. You cannot become a wise man... You remain in the rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa, and you become a wise man. That is not possible. You must suffer. So long you are infected with rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa. So this is the process. Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ (SB 1.2.20). Again, bhagavad-bhakti. If you remain in the bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, then you become prasanna-manaso, sattva-guṇa. Ceta etair anāviddhaṁ sthitaṁ sattve prasidati.
Prabhupāda: Any education. You train a child to the standard of that education and he will develop his intelligence. A child who does not know what is what, the father says "This is... My dear child, it is watch." Once, twice, thrice, you call, "Watch, watch, watch," he learns, "This is watch." Jaya, Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi, aside) So one has to awaken the intelligence. So that supreme intelligence is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. When one comes to the point of supreme intelligence, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like a rose flower, when it comes to the full blooming stage, it is very beautiful, fragrant, like that. So when a living entity comes to the understanding of his constitutional position, what he is actually, and acts like that, that is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then it is full development. That is called buddhi-yogam. Buddhi is there, intelligence is there, and when it is fully developed for understanding Kṛṣṇa, that is called buddhi-yogam. Yes. Buddhi-yogam. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is described, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi taṁ yena mām upayānti. Buddhi-yogam means the intelligence, but... Don't come near. The intelligence which gets the living entity back to home, back to Godhead. That is called buddhi-yogam. Any yoga system means connecting link with the Supreme. When we speak of buddhi-yogam, that is the ultimate yoga. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gata antar-ātmanā (BG 6.47). All different types of yoga practice, the most important and topmost yoga practice is to think of Kṛṣṇa always within oneself. That is being practiced, Hare Kṛṣṇa. The topmost yoga system. (break) You are experienced. Try to understand this philosophy and give it to your country. Your country is a most important country in Europe. Roman civilization.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. (break) Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks, in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajña? (break) "...need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of yajña," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make śūdras." Now, how you will be happy? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all.
Prabhupāda: ...if I go to place, jataji bhikṣā dijiye, so everyone will be compassionate. And it is our duty, at least in Vedic civilization, that when a sannyāsī comes he is received. Aiye, mahārāja, betiye. Still. Still in the villages they do that. Just like it is mentioned in the śāstra that brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs should be taken as the sons of the society.
Dr. Patel: In Poona, even today in Poona... (break)
Prabhupāda: They are trained like that, very good. (break) It is compulsory that every man should become a mendicant for some time.
Indian Man (1): They must have experience of that. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...there is a temple, Tarakeśvara, in Hoogli district. So Lord Śiva... So people, I mean to say, pray that "If my this disease is cured or if I get this victory, I shall become a sannyāsī for a month." (laughs) So that system is going on. They become sannyāsīs for one month. There are hundreds and thousands.
Dr. Patel: They... (break)
Prabhupāda: This is called "one month sannyāsī." That is not mentioned in the śāstra, but it has come into custom. (break) ...and if he returns, he is called vāntāśī, yes, "eating the vomit."
Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.
Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.
Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a...
Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required.
Richard Webster: Well, I agree with you.
Prabhupāda: These boys, although they are young men, they will never go to cinema. They are young men. They have got all propensities. But they are so elevated, they have given up all these low propensities, going to the club, restaurant, and cinema or naked dance and this and that, no. Because they are first-class men, they cannot indulge in the third-class, fourth-class proclivities. We are training them in that way. That is required.
Richard Webster: Well, yes, you said restaurants.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Richard Webster: Is it that it depends on the restaurant or is that necessarily bad?
Prabhupāda: Yes, our principle is that we can eat only what is offered to God. So we cannot eat things in the restaurant because it is not offered to God. We may prepare nice things for Kṛṣṇa and offer to Him. Then we take. This is our principle. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Yajña. Yajña means worshiping the Lord. So worship the Lord, it is not difficult. Everyone is cooking for eating, every home. So cook certain things which is acceptable to Kṛṣṇa. Then offer to Him and take the prasāda. There is no difficulty. But you become purified. Yajña-śiṣṭāśinaḥ santo mucyante sarva-kilbiṣaiḥ. Because willfully or not willingly, we are committing so many sins.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: Is it that the śūdra class of men should be trained that they are serving either God or a God conscious leader, or should they be educated to feel that their work is for God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, provided you are for God. They will see and learn. If you simply teach them, you do not do anything, then how they will learn? Āpani ācari prabhu jīve śikhāilā. When they actually see that "These men are dedicated to God," then they'll do whatever you wish.
Yogeśvara: They are making better organizations, but they are not giving any example to the people.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is concocting some ideas, and they are going on as different organization. That's all. No standard idea. The standard idea is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, that cows should be given protection, go-rakṣya. Who is following this? Everyone is making plan how to kill cows in a more scientific way. This is going on. Who is taking the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā? Nobody is taking. Even in India where Bhagavad-gītā is originally, these rascals also not taking. And they have become so brainless. Therefore the whole human society is a dead society. And the dead society's dressing, decorating, is useless waste of time. That's all. Their education, their advancement... He has no brain. What is the use of education? That is said by Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, that snake is a snake. Do you think a snake decorated with a jewel on the hood is gentleman? Similarly, a man without brain, so-called education, is just like a jewel on the head of a serpent. Kim asau na bhayaṅkara. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita asks "Whether a snake with jewel on the head is not fearful? He is as much fearful as the other snake without the jewel." Similarly, if a human being has no brain, with his so-called education or no education, it is as good. The education has no value. He does not know what is good work, what is bad work, what is my aim of life, what is this body, what is the soul? If these things he does not know, then what is the value of his education? So the man is not satisfied?
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They would rather die than give them up, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Even our men, after so much training, they're also falling down. It is so difficult thing. Actually, it is the most difficult thing.
Bhagavān: Is the path down at the lake very big?
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa...
Bhagavān: Would you like to walk down by the lake or is this...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is all right. In India, also, although they are vegetarian, they cannot give up smoking even beedie. They cannot give up chewing pan. You see? This is very difficult task. I was thinking when I first came that as soon as I propose these things, because I have got experience that Lord Zetland said, "It is impossible," what they, they'll accept? And I'll have to go back again. But I did not make any compromise. Just like other rascal yogis and swamis, they say, "Yes, yes. You can eat whatever you like. You can do whatever... You practice nose pressing. That's all. And give me my fees. Then you'll (indistinct)." This is not possible.
Prabhupāda: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glāniḥ, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihatā (SB 1.2.6). If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihatā. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is śravaṇam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya-saṁvido bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ (SB 3.25.25). Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Ādau gurv-āśrayam, sad-dharma pṛcchāt. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Ah. One who has not heard the message of Kṛṣṇa, he's animal.
Nitāi: Jātu nāma gadāgrajaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Jātu. What is...? Even for some time, they did not hear. Purport?
Nitāi: "The general mass of people, unless they are trained systematically for a higher standard of life in spiritual values, are no better than animals, and in this verse they have been particularly put on the level of dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Modern university education practically prepares one to acquire a doggish mentality to accept the service of a greater master. Like the dogs, after finishing so-called education, the so-called educated persons move from door to door with applications for some service,..."
Prabhupāda: At least, we have got this experience in India. There are so many unemployed, educated. Because they have been educated as dog, they must find out a master. Otherwise, they have no independent power to work. Dog, unless he finds out a very nice master, it is street dog, loitering in the street.
Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: They feed them every time, whenever they do something.
Prabhupāda: No, after catching them from the forest, they kept within the bars, and no eating for at least one week. Then the trainer comes. Only whips. He comes, and open the doors and only: (makes sound) Flosh, flosh, flosh. So already he's hungry, weak, and he's whipped. In this way, he becomes fearful. As soon as the man comes, he becomes fearful. Then he gives him little food. In this way, after all it is animal, he thinks that "This man is my God. He can save me. He can kill me." Then he takes to him. Whatever he says, he takes. Similarly, if you do not give the ingredients for sense enjoyment, the mind will be controlled. That is the beginning. You simply... Don't give... The mind wants, "Now let me go to the restaurant." "No, sir." Beat him with shoes. Instead of going to the restaurant, he beats the mind with shoes. Then mind will not again say, "Go to the restaurant." That is called swami, gosvāmī. One who can control his mind, that is gosvāmī. We giving the title "Gosvāmī" But if you cannot control your mind, then you are unfit. Go means senses, and svāmī means master. One who can control the senses and master, he is gosvāmī. (pause) ...definition of gosvāmī there: vāco vegaṁ krodha-vegaṁ manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etān vegān yo viṣaheta dhīraḥ pṛthivīṁ sa śiṣyāt (NOI 1). You have to control the impulse of speaking, vāco vegam, the impulse of becoming angry, vāco vegam, krodha-vegam. Then manasa-vegam, force of the mind. Then udara-vegam, the belly. Belly, already, although it is filled up, and as soon as there is some nice... Please fill up again, again. This you have to control, udara-vegam. Udaropastha-vegam, genital. In this way, one who has controlled all these forces, he is able to make disciple all over the world. Otherwise, not this rascal guru. As soon as he saw one very beautiful secretary, "Oh, let me enjoy." And he's guru. So these are cheating. And people want to be cheated. Therefore the cheaters are there. (break) ...fourteen years old. A fourteen years old cannot be induced to marry a twenty-six years girl. That is unnatural. And by medical examination, it is found that he's at least thirty-two years. It is declared in the medical, and still, the rascals following him. That he's cheating by talking false things. So in one sense, the Western boys and young generation, they are actually hankering after some spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: That's all. (break) ...samudvigna, always full of anxiety. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Intelligence is always absorbed: "Enemy may not come. Let me discover this, discover this atom bomb. This will save me. This will save me." This is their position. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām asad-grahāt (SB 7.5.5). Why this anxiety? Because they have accepted something false as truth. Asad-grahāt. They have accepted sense gratification is the truth. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. Indriyāṇi means senses. Parā, supreme. This is supreme. And then, if somebody is little advanced, indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ. Then the mental speculators, psychologists, philosophers, another, better class of rascals... This is the third-class rascal, and they are second-class rascal. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ, manasas tu parā buddhiḥ (BG 3.42). Then the intelligent class. They consider, "What is this nonsense? They are all suffering here." In this way, one who becomes actually intelligent, wise, then he understands, "Kṛṣṇa is everything." Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). So that highest position we are giving by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not training them to be first-class fools, second-class fools, third-class... No. First-class intelligent. Kṛṣṇa yei bhaje sei baḍa catura. Without being first-class, intelligent man, nobody can take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness (break) ...drink everything. And why they fight? What is the cause? Suppose father gives all necessities of life to the children. Why they should fight? Simply ignorance and foolishness. That's all. Where is the cause of fighting? Just like Pāṇḍavas, to settle up their misunderstanding, Kṛṣṇa said, "All right, they are kṣatriyas, They cannot take up the occupation of vaiśya or śūdra. Give them five villages so that they'll be happy. They'll rule over, each one on the village." "No, Sir. Not a piece of land holding the tip of the needle can be spared without fighting." This is the world. The German, German war, First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything.
Prabhupāda: And we are practically doing that. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa—this is our business. We always keep the chanting beads just like you are keeping. Yes. Chant, that's all. Everyone should do. Where is the harm? If everyone takes this chanting... You are Christian; you have taken. Why not other Christians? They also can take. Chant. There is no loss. By chanting, there is no loss, but there is good gain, so why should we miss this opportunity of chanting? The cats and dogs, they cannot chant. But we have got human tongue, we can chant. There is no loss, but there is great gain. Now, these young boys, they are always chanting. It is only practice. It is training. These young boys and girls, they could go and act so many things frivolously, but now they have given up everything. They don't eat meat, egg, fish, no intoxication up to drinking tea or smoking, no gambling, no illicit sex and chanting. (pause) If you can cooperate, then we go to the church and chant, "Christ, Christ, Christo, Christo, Christo, or Christo, Christo." Is there any objection?
Pater Emmanuel: No.
Prabhupāda: Then we should be allowed. Instead of keeping the churches locked up...
Pater Emmanuel: On my part, I...
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are talking with you. You are a representative of Christian kind. So instead of keeping the churches locked up, why not give it us? We shall chant twenty-four hours. Actually this is fact. Many places we have purchased churches. And before our purchasing, the church was practically locked up. Nobody was going. And because nobody was going, therefore it was available for purchase. In London I have seen. Hundreds and thousands of churches are locked up, or they are being used for different purpose. There are many hundreds and thousands churches, but they are not going on. So this experience... In Los Angeles we purchased one church. So it was sold because people were not coming. Now you go to the same church, and the same men, they are coming by thousands. And one Christian preach in Boston, he issued one leaflet that "These boys are our boys. Before accepting this movement, they were never coming to the church. They never inquired about God. And now they are mad after God. How it has happened?" Yesterday the inquiry was "Why the Americans and the Germans are taking to this path?"
Prabhupāda: I say it is very nice, immediately. Because he was embracing tree also. So that is God consciousness, advanced God consciousness. Because everywhere there is part and parcel of God. Any way, either materially or spiritually. In our childhood, actually what I am doing, it was all taught in our childhood by our parents, my family. We were taught, "There is a grain of rice on the ground, and if it is touched by your feet, you should pick up the grain and touch on your head." This was our training. The idea behind—that the grain of rice is not man-made. It is sent by God. "O God, give us our daily bread." So here is the bread. It is God's mercy. Just see how idea, great idea. What is given by God, that is also God. This is God consciousness. You are asking God's mercy. So God's mercy is also God, the Absolute. So how can you disrespect a thing which is given by God? You cannot produce rice. You cannot produce bread. It is given by God. Everything... Therefore Kṛṣṇa said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya (BG 7.8). Just try to understand Kṛṣṇa from the beginning of drinking water. Therefore Kṛṣṇa said that "The taste of the water, I am." So water, or any liquid thing you are drinking, if you are feeling some pleasure, ānanda... Ānandamaya. That God is ānanda. So there is the sample of ānanda. So if we simply practice this, that wherever I derive some pleasure, that is God, then you become God conscious. To become God conscious is not difficult. Simply one has to learn how to practice it. That's all. Everything stated. Find out that verse. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhāsmi śaśi-sūryayoḥ. (pause) Who will not respect Jesus Christ? He sacrificed everything for God, even his life. So who is that rascal that he'll not respect to Jesus Christ. What did he do wrong to the human society? He did everything for the good of the human society. Oh, I have got very, very, great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. Not only... Every, I mean to say, God conscious man, he must have respect for Jesus Christ. There is no doubt about it. My Guru Mahārāja had very great respect for Muhammad, Jesus Christ... We pray Lord Buddha. Although he preached atheistic philosophy, but we know that he's incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare. So a Vaiṣṇava is godly. He is qualified with all good qualities. That is Vaiṣṇava. That is Vaiṣṇava. He knows the value of each and everything. Therefore he's godly. And therefore to offer respect to Vaiṣṇava is also a great qualification. Even to offer respect to the Vaiṣṇavas is greater qualification than one who simply offers respect to God.
Madhudviṣa: He's teaching, yes. And he comes to the...
Dr. Harrap: Do you have any formal training arrangements that belong your own particular religion? Do you run colleges and...
Madhudviṣa: No, not per se. We have our training centers where the students are trained in reading Sanskrit and studying the... Most of our education is centered around the ancient scriptures from the East. This is what our spiritual master dedicates his life to, translating these Sanskrit books. He's translated about twenty of them already. And so our centers are working in that fashion. We have a school for children where they are trained up from the time they're five years old. This is in America.
Dr. Harrap: Can you give us an indication where the centers are, where some of them are?
Madhudviṣa: The centers are all over the world. We have centers in America and centers...
Prabhupāda: We have got forty centers in America.
Dr. Harrap: Forty.
Prabhupāda: Forty, four zero, yes.
Dr. Harrap: Your knowledge of Sanskrit, this is one of your basic interests.
Prabhupāda: No, not Sanskrit, but knowledge we have received by disciplic succession from my Guru Mahārāja, from my spiritual master. Sanskrit is the language but mostly we derive knowledge from Vedic revealed scriptures. And this is also one of them, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge.
Prabhupāda: I think he doesn't speak anything about God.
Guest (3): No. He's teaching the transcendental meditation.
Prabhupāda: He speaks something of material prosperity. So He has nothing to do with God.
Devotee (1): It's just a kind of training of mind.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Just like gymnastic. You exercise; you become bodily strong. That's all.
Guest (2): Sai Baba?
Prabhupāda: Sai Baba, he also says, "I am Bhagavān." Therefore he's bogus. How you can say yourself that you are Bhagavān, God? What is your power? What you have shown? And this is cheap. Now, supposing Sai Baba is God. So people accept him God, why? Because he shows some jugglery. He creates little gold. Is it not? So if, by creating gold, he is God, then there is bigger God who has created gold mine. Why shall I go to this tiny god? I must go to the big God who has created gold mine. This is common sense. But foolish people, they have no common sense even. Therefore it is called mūḍhā. Mūḍhā nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Tribhir guṇamayair bhāvair mohita, mūḍhā nābhijānāti. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā. Just like mostly people take: "The nature is all in all." The scientist, they take nature. But nature is matter. So where is our experience—the matter is working automatically? Where is our experience? Hm? Matter... Does matter work automatically? What is your opinion?
Hanumān: It's a chain of reaction.
Prabhupāda: How do you think like that? Is there anything within this you world which can be learned without guru? Even if you become an ordinary carpenter, you have to learn from an expert carpenter. So how you can imagine to learn the topmost subject matter without guru? This is... The Vedic injunction is, therefore, tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), samit-pāṇiḥ, like that. We must have a bona fide guru to train us in the understanding of spiritual matter. Guru means who knows the thing, who can teach you. That is guru, not a humbug guru, but guru means one who knows. Tattva-darśinaḥ, one who has seen the truth, he can become guru. Find this verse,
Hṛdayānanda: (Spanish) Thank you.
Prabhupāda: So I have to go, bathroom. Give them prasādam. (end)
Prabhupāda: Then that is not for Indian and European, that is for everyone. That ignorance and knowledge is everywhere. It is not the Indian or American. That ignorance is everywhere.
Guest (1): But Swamiji, while the family norm here in the western countries is 2.3 children per couple, we still have a family norm of about six children per family. You know I think there are a lot of cultural factors that are...
Prabhupāda: No, that shastric injunction is, that is spiritual restraint. Therefore one should train himself when to have sex life or when to become father, when not to become. That education... Not to become like animal, dogs and cats, whenever there is sex desire, we must have. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā, it is said, dharmāviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Find out this, dharmāviruddhaḥ.
Guest (1): Swamiji, do you recognize that India does need some method at this point...
Prabhupāda: Why you are speaking of India. Everyone needs, all over the world.
Guest (1): Because we are the most unfortunate one that with only...
Prabhupāda: You are unfortunate because you are now following misleaders. You do not follow the real leader.
Prabhupāda: That is very good. That is our philosophy. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumārtho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says, "That is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him." That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaiṣṇava dharma in a crude form like the Christian. So we can amalgamate them all if they are sane men. I suggested that there are many churches vacant. If they give us these churches we shall install Deity—Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva—and along with them we shall worship Lord Jesus Christ also. Similarly, we can do Muhammad. There is no harm. But they are against this Deity worship, eh? Mohammedans?
Yoga student: Yes, they are. That sort of expression. And yet, amongst the Sufi poets...
Prabhupāda: Deity is also expression, form is also expression, but they do not understand it.
Yoga student: But the Sufis do, because in the Sufi...
Prabhupāda: They have got form worship, Sufis?
Yoga student: They don't worship form as such, but they speak of it in the poetry. They say... In one poem of Hafez(?) there's a meeting between Hafez and his spiritual master. And he asks the spiritual master (recites verse in Parsi). He asked, "I asked him, 'What was this current, this chain of idols that we must worship?' And he replied so that my heart might moan, lament about the dark night..."
Prabhupāda: "Dog night"?
Yoga student: "...the dark night of ignorance of..."
Prabhupāda: Oh, "dark night."
Prabhupāda: Then the ultimate goal is how to love God.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy. sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Premā pumartho mahān. This is the highest goal of life, how one has developed his love for God. And Bhāgavata says that is first-class religion which trains the followers how to love God and serve Him. That is first-class religion. Then Islam is Vaisnalam in crude form, like the Christians (indistinct) if they are sane man. I suggested that there are many churches vacant, if they give us these churches, we shall install Deity, Gaurasundara, Nitāi-Gaura and Pañca-tattva, and along with them we can worship Jesus Christ. Similarly, we can do Mohammed. But they are against this Deity worship. Yes?
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Mohammedans?
Guest: Yes, with that sort of expression.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: And yet amongst the Sufi poets there is...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) is also expression, form is also expression.
Prabhupāda: Then they are controlled by the laws of material nature, and they want to be happy independently. This is rascaldom. If I am controlling you and you want to become happy independently, how it is possible? You must get out of the control first of all. Your eyes should be open. Then you can do something independently. But you are under my control fully, and I have wrapped up your eyes with very thick layer of cloth, and then how you can become independent, work. That they do not know. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). This māyā, this energy, is very, very strong. You cannot get out of it. Then what is the way? Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is so important. If one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, then immediately he gets out of the control of māyā. That is the sign. Otherwise, if I remain a blind man, how can I lead others? Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore said, janma sārthaka kari kāra para-upakāra (CC Adi 9.41). You are very busy doing good to others, but first of all make your life perfect. And otherwise, you rascal, fool, blind, what you will do? So where is the training? Where the politicians are going to take training how to become free from the wrapping, illusion? So they are in illusion, in darkness. What they can do? Futile attempt. Therefore all plans are failure. So many Hitler, so many Gandhi, so many Churchill, they came and...
Guest: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, everyone is blind. Yes, everyone is blind.
Jayatīrtha: That's nice. That's nice. So I can go on and read these...?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: I hope this isn't, er... Anyway, this is discussing the responsibilities of the GBC men in their zones. So we've already said to organize opening new temples, to appoint temple presidents for new temples, to be responsible for training all temple presidents and insuring spiritual standards. In the case of major deviation or resignation...
Prabhupāda: Now, you... First of all, you finish one business. That Oath of Allegiance, so addition, alteration, you have made, complete, so that it may be typed?
Jayatīrtha: Satsvarūpa is...
Satsvarūpa: The only thing we've done is comment that Asnani's form hasn't specified on devotional principles.
Prabhupāda: So make addition, alteration, I say. You amongst yourselves.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In other words, add that one must follow four regulative prin...
Satsvarūpa: I can just add what Brahmānanda Mahārāja has.
Prabhupāda: So do it amongst yourselves.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: So... These men are influencing. One of the things we did. We invited him to the temple, and we gave him a big plate of nice prasādam, and he liked it very much. He said, "If my wife could learn to cook like this, I'd give up meat." So we thought that was very significant.
Pañcadraviḍa: Send his wife over to the temple. We'll train her up.
Ravīndra-svarūpa: So why don't you write a book? Why don't you become a theologian from their point of view and write a book about Christianity? If they, if they can do it, if they can do it, write books and get people to read them, then why can't you do the same thing, write books on Christianity?
Acyutānanda: Did you pass the course in...?
Devotee (2): If you want to get into their world.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rūpānuga... Rūpānuga is already getting one book together, so you can write a chapter in it. There's a book, and he's going to comment... It's a scientific book on different aspects and he's commenting on, I think, social, various social applications. So you can comment on the theosophical points. I mean it can be included in this book. Actually if you have the qualifications, I'm sure he would want a chapter from you. Prabhupāda, you know that book Rūpānuga's putting together?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so they are being prepared. War will soon start.
Viṣṇujana: The Arab men all go to America to be trained in the armed forces there.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Viṣṇujana: In all the armed forces centers in America, they train the Arab nations to fight.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Viṣṇujana: They let the young men come into the U.S.A. to learn how to use the missiles and everything.
Pañcadraviḍa: Recently, this Bhutto of Pakistan, he was very happy because they were talking about lifting a ten-year holding on arms from the United States, and now, they say, Pakistan will soon get arms from America.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are getting. They are already getting. The Pakistan will start the war with India. And then everything will be...
Devotees: Oh! Whew!
Devotee: Pakistan will start a war... (devotees talking among themselves.)
Pañcadraviḍa: They have started the war maybe eight times.
Prabhupāda: (Aside:) Hmm? No, we can go.
Pañcadraviḍa: What will the devotees do while the war is going on?
Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotees: Jaya! (laughter)
Prabhupāda: That is nature's way because there will be no food in the future. So nature is training them how to live without food.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The whole civilization is becoming expert in killing and dying. That's all.
Prabhupāda: You have got some agricultural experience?
Devotee: Not at all.
Prabhupāda: Not at all. Anyway, that not very difficult.
Devotee: No. I can take advice from the experts. That man with the white beard there, he's supposed to know very much. He's supposed to be very expert, and he speaks English. He's supposed to have agricultural experience.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yaśodānandana: Jayapatāka had no agricultural experience.
Prabhupāda: Any city boy (indistinct) (end)
Morning Walk -- April 17, 1975, Vṛndāvana
Governor: But also not come in the way of a Muslim.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. Secular means government's duty is that "You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?" This is government's duty. Government does not say or prefer that "You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu." No, that is not government's... You remain your Christian, but government's duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government's duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a śūdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brāhmaṇa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, "Dr. something," that is punishable. But you are quack. That's all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is... But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a... (chuckles) So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brāhmaṇa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brāhmaṇa. I have given the example...
Governor: No, all people... One or two could be taken out of many.
Prabhupāda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The guṇas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brāhmaṇa, proper training of kṣatriya, vaiśya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?
Brahmānanda: "As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brāhmaṇas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential."
Prabhupāda: So therefore this varṇāśrama college is very essential.
Governor: Both intensive and extensive training.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive... Doesn't matter.
Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent.
Prabhupāda: Ninety-five percent may remain non-brāhmaṇa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārāḥ-sahasraśaḥ. You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after "When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?" That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Varnāśrama college, that training factual brāhmaṇa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brāhmaṇa, he must act as a brāhmaṇa. If one is proclaiming as a kṣatriya, he must act as a kṣatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a śūdra will claim to be brāhmaṇa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Pṛthu Mahārāja's time it was strictly prohibited that... That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā, sva-dharme nidhanaṁ śreyaḥ para-dharmo bhayāvahaḥ. So if one is claiming to be brāhmaṇa he must be brāhmaṇa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a śūdra, and somebody is claiming, "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am kṣatriya," "I am this," "I am that." Formerly the brāhmaṇas (were) strictly following. They would not accept... In the śāstras it is said that the brāhmaṇa in bad time may become a kṣatriya. Just like Dronācārya. He was brāhmaṇa, but he became a kṣatriya for certain reason, and acting like kṣatriya, although he was respected as brāhmaṇa, but he was acting as a kṣatriya. So it is advised that brāhmaṇa may take the profession of a kṣatriya and up to the vaiśya. But if he takes the profession of a śūdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That's a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti?
Paramahaṁsa: Many devotees wish... Now they have become devotees and have had so much bad training, they wish that they could have gone to Gurukula so they would not be so mistrained.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, one boy in Sydney, he has been a devotee for a few years, three or four years, but now he has fallen away because of lusty association, I suppose, or bad association. So is this unwilling or willing, because he has become attracted to women again?
Prabhupāda: That is one of the defects, our society, that women are there, and one falls victim of these women. And it is not possible to keep the society strictly for men. That is also not possible. But actually no woman should live in the temple. That is the...
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Christians have one place for the women and another place for the men. But we find the women can't organize themselves very well, so it is difficult to organize something like that also.
Prabhupāda: Therefore, if we do not give up lusty desires, either we keep separately or together they fall down in the... All these nuns, they are all complicated, although they live separately. There was a convent school in Calcutta, and it was detected that the head minister was supplying women outside for business. Now one brahmacārīṇi āśrama is started. This means that the authority of this āśrama, they supply young women to rich, richer class, and they pay money. Business is going on.
Prabhupāda: They have to be trained. Just like you have been trained up as geographer; similarly, a certain man can be trained up as first-class man by education.
Justin Murphy: But trained by others or trained by themselves?
Prabhupāda: No, there must be institution.
Justin Murphy: But surely training by oneself. But training by oneself, such as for example an Albert Einstein or a Bertrand Russell...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, no, no, no. By teacher. You have become geographer not by yourself.
Justin Murphy: Oh, yes, but we also have many... I'm nowhere near what you're saying is a first-class. I'm talking about some of our latter-day philosophers, and Bertrand Russell is a person, for example, who, for gentleness, sobriety, and thought, whom I admire very much. And he has attained that himself. He hasn't been... He was certainly, as we all must be, surely, trained to begin with. But then it's a process of individual thought.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. No, no, no. But that's all right. Just like we have got different institution—this is for educating engineers, this is for educating medical man, this is for educating geographer—as there are different departments.
Justin Murphy: Oh, sure, to begin with, and so there must be.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, there must be a department to train first-class men. That is required.
Justin Murphy: We don't have them in our universities.
Prabhupāda: So therefore it is chaotic, no first-class men, all third class, fourth class.
Justin Murphy: What are the specifications for your first-class man?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Find out. Satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā.
Paramahaṁsa: Satyam?
Prabhupāda: Śamo damas titikṣā, brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Eighteenth Chapter.
Paramahaṁsa: Satyam or satya?
Prabhupāda: Satya. S-a-t-y-a. (devotee looking for verse) You find out jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. Jñānam, find out jñānam. J-n-a-n, jñānam.
Paramahaṁsa: Jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam, 18.42.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mother: But you'll always have disease and you'll always have old age.
Prabhupāda: Yes, but just like you are diseased, so all the problems are there. But when you become cured of the disease, then there is no more problem. Similarly, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means training people how to go back to home, back to Godhead. And as soon as he is educated to go back to home, back to Godhead, then all problems solved. Find out this verse,
Gaṇeśa:
Translation. "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupāda: This is the solution of the real problem, that after... If you understand Kṛṣṇa, then after giving up this body, you don't accept another material body. And in the material existence the problems are not solved because you have to, after death, you have to accept another material body. And as soon as you accept a material body, the sufferings are there, at least these four sufferings: birth, death, old age, and disease. So it continues. If you take the body of a human being, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. If you take the body of a heavenly demigod, the birth, death, old age, and disease are there. Or if you take the body of a dog, the birth, death, old age, disease are there. So any kind of birth, material body, you have to accept these four problems. And there are many other problems. But if you stop accepting a material body, then these things are finished. So we are training people, simply janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9).
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, he said, "Are you all becoming first-class men? You want to become first-class men?" Before he left he said it was very nice meeting... And he looked and he said, "It's nice meeting you all."
Prabhupāda: So we are trying to make some first-class men. That's all. This is our aim. Even if he is fourth-class man, it doesn't matter. If he takes up the training, he becomes first class. And as soon as he becomes a first-class man, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti, even if he is not liberated, he goes in higher planetary system amongst the demigods. Then there he gets more advanced. He goes to Brahmā. If he is not directly transferred to the spiritual world, then he gets these facilities. And with Brahmā, at the end of this creation, annihilation, they go to the spiritual world.
Devotee (1): Just by becoming first-class men.
Prabhupāda: That is described. Śamo damas titikṣā, that... You were not here, hearing? That is first class.
Devotee (1): So just by becoming first-class men you can go to the heavenly planets?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But that is meant for a first-class man. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti. Ūrdhvam means higher planetary system.
Devotee (1): Are we not training all classes of men? In Kṛṣṇa consciousness...
Prabhupāda: We can train any class to become first class. It is simply by education. Just like anyone can become engineer by training. Where is the difficulty? Nobody is born first class, but we can make first class if he agrees to become first class. Two things required: he must agree, and the teachings are there. Then he becomes first class. Where is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): But you say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that the four classes are necessary.
Prabhupāda: They already there, four classes of men, but they should be properly trained up. Then the society will be in order. Just like this man, he is considered to be first-class man in the society. He is in charge of some department. But actually, he is fourth class. So as he is little trained up by a moment's instruction, if he agrees to be trained up, he can become. He's young man, within thirty years.
Paramahaṁsa: He says he finds it not practical because not everyone who is addicted to drugs can spend six months in a temple with us.
Prabhupāda: They are spending years. They are all European, Americans. They are not Indians. We have got here... You go to Melbourne. We have got big branch. In Sydney we have got. In Europe. They are doing that. It requires training, proper training. Then it will be done.
Guest (1): Well, if there is someone who wouldn't like to perhaps join this religion, but still wants to get treated...
Prabhupāda: This is not religion. This is a culture.
Guest (1): Oh. Yes, this culture...
Prabhupāda: Because we are admitting persons from various religions, various nations, various countries, and they accept this culture and they become purified.
Guest (1): Do they have to wear those clothes and shave their heads and chanting those things...
Prabhupāda: That is optional. That is also optional. That is not compulsory. But in India because the brahmacārīs, sannyāsīs, they dress in a particular way, they do that. But that is not compulsory. But it has got a psychological effect, because whenever we go, people chant "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" So by this dress, we give chance, the other men, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Copeland: Ah, that's why. Ah! Pretty! Are you a brāhmaṇa? By birth you're a brāhmaṇa, right?
Prabhupāda: No. I am brāhmaṇa yes. Yes. But we are not... We do not recognize brāhmaṇa by birth. Brāhmaṇa by these qualities. Anyone who has got... This is the shastric injunction, that if the qualities are found somewhere else—that means one who is not born in a brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the brāhmaṇa—then he should be accepted as a brāhmaṇa. That is shastric injunction. Yasya hi yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ varṇābhivyañjakam, yad anyatrāpi. Anyatra means elsewhere. Tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). "He should be accepted as such." Similarly, if a man, born in brāhmaṇa family but he has the qualities of the śūdras... Paricaryātmakaṁ kāryaṁ śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Paricarya means service. To accept... (break) So therefore, according to Bhagavad-gītā, nobody is brāhmaṇa. A brāhmaṇa should remain independent. He should live by his qualities. People will honor him. Just like we are training. We do not serve anyone, but we are maintaining big establishment.
Dr. Copeland: And you're training them to lead?
Prabhupāda: Yes, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa will supply everything. Be confident. This is brāhmaṇa. We don't depend. You see for the last ten years our institution going on. We don't depend on anyone else. If you contribute voluntarily, welcome, but we are not dependent on you. This is brahminical class of man. We don't... Find this: śamo damas tapaḥ śaucam. What are they? Śamaḥ?
Amogha: Śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca (BG 18.42). You want me to read each word, translate?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Amogha: Śamaḥ-peacefulness; damaḥ-self-control; tapaḥ-austerity; śaucam-purity; kṣāntiḥ-tolerance; ārjavam-honesty..."
Prabhupāda: Simplicity, honesty. Ārjavam means even an enemy enquires from me, "What is your secret?" I shall say, "Yes, it is... I have no secret. This is my position." This is called ārjavam. Don't keep any secret. So ārjavam, then?
Amogha: "Jñānam-wisdom."
Prabhupāda: Yes, full knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is very dangerous law to allow divorce. Divorce should not be allowed. Even there is some disagreement between husband and wife, it should be neglected. According to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita... He was great politician. He has said that dampatya kalahe caiva bahvārambhe laghu kriyā. The husband and wife's quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajā yuddhe (More quote by Cāṇakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say "Hut!" they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, "Yes, come to the court." This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law. Another defect is that there is no method how to train a man to become first class. That is there in the Vedic civilization. Now of course in India that is also now abolished by degradation.
Prabhupāda: No, they will live, just like they are living. They are coming from the same group. But they are now saintly. It is a question of training them. I have no facility. Whatever I have done, by personal endeavor and their cooperation. Neither your government, I mean the Western government, they helped me, neither my government helped me, although we are struggling to make class of men ideal. They appreciate, but they do not give us... Now, just like we have purchased this house by our endeavor, with great difficulty, because we have no income. We write our books, then we sell, we get some income. So somehow or other we expand. But no government is helping us. They are increasing brothels, drinking. At least in India there was no drinking propaganda. Now the government is making that. They are opening wine shop. India, even in the British period, drinking was very, very restricted. Very, very restricted. First of all socially if anyone drinks, he is rejected as gentleman.
Prabhupāda: So from the very beginning, three years, four years, five years old, children they are being trained up. It is not that cent percent men will be trained up spiritually. But even a small percentage ideal men there are in the society, at least people will think, "Oh, here is ideal." But there is no such facility. We are training, sometimes people laugh, "What is this nonsense?" They criticize.
These leaders of the society do not encourage. Yesterday I was talking with one priest. So about illicit sex life he said that "What is the wrong there? It is a great pleasure." We are training, we are advocating that illicit sex is sinful. Our first condition is that one must give up these four things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, and gambling. This is my first condition before accepting. So they agree and they follow.
Prabhupāda: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, "All right." And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Director: What you people say what ideal to you is not ideal to somebody else?
Prabhupāda: I am giving the example ideal character.
Director: Yeah, but that's one opinion.
Prabhupāda: No. It will not depend on opinion. Opinion... What is the value of opinion if the people are all asses? There is no opinion. One should take as it is enjoined in the śāstra. No opinion. What is the use of taking opinion of an ass? So the people are trained up just like dogs and asses, then what is the use of their opinion? If you are to enforce, you must do like this. Just like when we introduced this "No illicit sex." I never cared for their opinion. The opinion... immediately there will be discussion. And what is the use of taking their opinion? It must be done. That is the defect of Western civilization. Vox populi, taking opinion of the public. But what is the value of this public? Drunkards, smokers, meat-eaters, woman-hunters. What is the... they are not first-class men. So what is the use of such third-class, fourth-class men's opinion? We do not advocate such opinion. What Kṛṣṇa said, that is standard, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme, and His version is final.
Prabhupāda: Indian society, the did not know how to drink tea even. In our childhood we have seen that Britishers started tea garden. There was no tea plants before Britishers. The Britishers saw the labor is very cheap, and they want to do business, they started. Just like they are doing in Africa. So many gardens, coffee and tea. So they started, and the tea was transferred to be sold in America. They were after business. So the... Now, so much tea, who will consume? The government started a tea sets committee. All the tea garden holders they would pay government. And road to road, street to street, their business was canvassing, preparing tea, very nice, palatable tea, and they advertising if you drink tea, then you will not feel very much hungry, and your malaria will go away and so on, so on. And people began to drink tea. Nice cup. I have seen it. Now they have got a taste. Now gradually now a sweeper also, early in the morning, is waiting in the tea shop to get a cup of tea.
Tea was taken in our childhood if somebody is coughing, sometimes they used to tea. That was also later. But it was unknown. Drinking tea, drinking wine, smoking, meat-eating—these things were unknown. Prostitution. There was prostitution. Not that everyone is prostitute. Very strict. So these things should be taken care of—at least a class of men must be ideal for people others will see. And the training should go on, just like we are doing. We are inviting people to come to chant with us, to dance with us, take prasādam. And gradually they are becoming. The same (?) addicted to drinking, addicted to prostitution, addicted to meat-eating, he is becoming saintly person. This is practical, you can see, what was their previous history and what they are now.
Madhudviṣa: Though his material body dies.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But a pure devotee goes back to home. There is no more material body. That is the... So we are advocating that you come to this stage where you will not to have accept this material body. Then you are really happy. And if you want to enjoy the flickering, illusory māyā, then you are subjected to the māyā. You are enjoying as American. Then you enjoy as a dog. That is māyā's control. But if you don't enjoy material things then you become purified. You come to the eternal life, back to home, back to Godhead. But they are not willing to give up this material enjoyment. That is the defect. So it requires education. It requires knowledge. It requires training.
Devotee 7: Prabhupāda, when you leave this material world, will there be another spiritual master after you? Another pure soul?
Prabhupāda: Then that spiritual master is Kṛṣṇa Himself. There is no need of education. Everyone is free. Everyone is full knowledge. There is no need of spiritual master.
Guest 2: Would you say that the lawyer can do good whether or not he believes in God?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good?
Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training.
Madhudviṣa: No. Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right?
Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't...
Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying.
Madhudviṣa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us.
Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action?
Madhudviṣa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing.
Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car.
Madhudviṣa: That lady may have been...
Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road?
Madhudviṣa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there.
Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...
Prabhupāda: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture—everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in two verses. One verse is: idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that first-class man is stated here. Read that.
Amogha:
Translation: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."
Prabhupāda: So we have to train men like that.
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with anyone of those.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with any one of those.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So as you are training lawyer, as you are training medical man, you can train some men like that. It is possible. If you train from the childhood, it is possible. It doesn't matter from which family he is coming, but it will require, trained up. Just like you have been trained up as lawyer, it doesn't matter from which family you have... It may be lawyer's family or engineer's family. It doesn't matter. But training. So at the present moment, to make the society perfect, a class of men should be trained as it is described here. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. And if the first-class men are there, people will consult them, people will follow them, the whole society will be nice.
Australian devotee 2: So it is the fault of the education.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is the responsibility of the government, guardians, father. They do not give them proper education. Therefore Bhāgavata says, "If you cannot give proper education to your children, then don't marry. Don't become father." That is contraceptive. If you are unable to give... What is that? Pitā na sa syāj jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. Samupeta-mṛtyum: this body means you have accepted death. This body means, material body. So one should not become a father if he cannot stop the death of his son. That is the Vedic injunction. "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot train your children so that he may be saved from this impending death." That is the instruction. And who is doing that? Their philosophy is: "After death everything is finished. I will be finished. My child will be finished. That's all."
Yogi Bhajan: We are not disobeying any instruction towards God.
Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's... What Kṛṣṇa says, that is written in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why don't you take it, Bhagavad-gītā, that instruction? What is wrong there? Every problem is solved there. Now, so far economic... Now the question is economic. So Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). So where is the objection? Produce food grain, and both animal and man will be happy. So who will disagree with this point? Follow this. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. Kṛṣṇa says first. This is economic. Social—Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The human society should be divided into four classes according to quality and work. So four classes there are. First class, intelligent class; the second class, the administrators; the third class, the mercantile; and the fourth class, who are not within these three class. That is going on. Now make it systematic. The first-class man... Who is a first-class man? Then... Find out. Satya śamo damaḥ titikṣa ārjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). Train first-class men. He must be truthful. He must be self-controlled, controlling the mind, controlling the senses. He must have full knowledge of the whole world, jñānaṁ vijñānam, practical application. So where is the question of that "I am Sikh," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..."
Prabhupāda: We have been training them to, how to acquire the brāhmaṇa qualification. It doesn't matter whether he is coming from Christian family or Mohammedan family, this... No. Just like if you train one how to become engineer, it doesn't matter from which family he comes. It doesn't matter. Any family, he can come. He can be trained how to speak truthfulness. Satyam. What is that? So...
Devotee: The verse is...
Prabhupāda: Satya śama damaḥ titikṣa. You don't find?
Devotee: I thought it was the verse about the qualities of a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, what is that?
Devotee: "Peacefulness, self..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, what is the Sanskrit verse?
Devotee: The one I have is text forty-two of Chapter Eighteen, but I don't think that's the one you're quoting from.
Prabhupāda: What is the verse? You cannot read?
Devotee: Śamo damas tapaḥ...
Prabhupāda: Ah, śamo damaḥ, that's it.
Prabhupāda: Determination, and yuddhe ca apalāyanam. Now when there is war, these politician will remain in their room safely. They will not go to the war. And why these people are voted for political post? Formerly the king would first of all stand. To the other side also, the king is there and this side also. The fight is going on. If the king is killed, then the victory is there. Yuddhe ca apalāyanam. The formula is there. So these classes of man should be on the administration, not anyone coward, nonsense, and by hook and crook they get some vote and take the political leader... How you will find peace? The fourth class is required. Just like in your body you have got brain, brain is required. Then hand. Whenever there is some attack, consciously, unconsciously, I forward my hand. So the division is already there. If you come to attack me with a knife, I don't push my head. I push my hand. So when there is attack, the brāhmaṇas are not expected to go forward; the kṣatriyas. So this is training. Everything is perfectly there. People are not accepting. You don't require conference. You simply accept the standard knowledge. Then everything is there. I am speaking to you because you are leader of the society. So if we take Bhagavad-gītā seriously and train people from all over the world —not that Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the Hindu or for the Indians—for everyone, then there will be all right.
Prabhupāda: A brāhmaṇa's business is paṭhan pāṭhan yajan yājan danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. Brāhmaṇa means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brāhmaṇa's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called paṭhan pāṭhan. Then yajan yājan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danaḥ pratigrahaḥ. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brāhmaṇa. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Kṛṣṇa said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. (break) ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahiḥ. Antar means internally, and bahiḥ means external. We... That chant, that ācamana mantra?
Bahya means external, and abhyāntara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyābhyāntaraṁ śuciḥ. Śuciḥ means purified, brāhmaṇa. And who is not purified, he is muciḥ. (break) We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. (break) ...not expect everyone to become brāhmaṇa. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Kṛṣṇa consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ (BG 18.46). One can get perfection, even becoming a śūdra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brāhmaṇas can become Kṛṣṇa conscious. No. The śūdras also can become, provided he is guided by the brāhmaṇa. (break) At the present moment the whole human society is full of śūdras. There is no brāhmaṇas. So you have to train real brāhmaṇas. (break) ...how respectfully received that Sudāmā Vipra, not that because he was a caste brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: When you can give life. There is sometimes cow sacrifice yajña. The cow sacrifice yajña means an old cow, he is sacrificed in the fire, and by Vedic hymns he is given again new life. To test the potency of the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya-caritāmṛta will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahāprabhu that "You are killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow sacrifice yajña is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating. It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat, then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the kṣatriyas, they were sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man. When they are fully practiced, then they are allowed to practice surgical operation. Similarly, kṣatriyas are meant for sometimes killing. Just like Arjuna, he's a kṣatriya. So Kṛṣṇa is criticizing him that "You are a kṣatriya. You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?" So kṣatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you want a kṣatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as brāhmaṇas. You must train a class of men as kṣatriya and a class of men as agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is cātur-varṇyam: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. But the kṣatriya or the president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and some poor young men—"Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that energy is lacking, what he will do there?
Dr. Crossley: Meditation is not practical?
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our age, that is, in the Kali-yuga, it is not.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this thing. That is not practical. And it is practical. Even a small child can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We see every day. A small child is chanting and dancing without any training.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the reason that meditation is not feasible now is because we are too much distracted in this age.
Prabhupāda: Mind is... I will meditate on my office work. When I close my eye I shall sleep. I have seen it. Big... (makes snoring noise) (laughter) I have seen it, old ladies meditating. This is not practical. Meditation is described in Vedic..., dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ: (SB 12.13.1) mind is fully absorbed in God, and he is seeing the Supreme Lord within his heart. That is meditation, not snoring. That is not meditation. Impractical. But if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, immediately you can join, immediately, "Oh." Even the child will join. So this is practical. And that is recommended,
That is recommended by Śukadeva Gosvāmī, that "I have described so many faults of this age of Kali, but there is one very biggest gain." What is that? "That simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa one becomes free from all material bondage." This is the special advantage of this age.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...doctor?
Nitāi: The doctor is staying there. He is... (break) ...for a few days and stays, and then he goes for a few days. Then he comes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...Pradyumna is doing?
Nitāi: Pradyumna has gone to Māyāpur to help train the Sastris.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Nitāi: To teach the Sastris English, he has gone to Māyāpur. They have all gone to Māyāpur because they were facing criticism from the residents of Vṛndāvana. Many of their old schoolmates were criticizing that they are coming and joining us. These are... (break) ...are very desirous of taking initiation from you.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Nitāi: Ananta Ram Sastri and one other, I forget his name. He is very, very good in Sanskrit. He reads it fluently, speaks it fluently.
Prabhupāda: He speaks Sanskrit also?
Nitāi: Yes. Speaks it. He lectures in Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's good.
Nitāi: While he was in Vṛndāvana, we were taking daily a class with him in Bhagavad-gītā. We would read Viśvanātha Cakravartī's commentary.
Prabhupāda: Where is our car? (break)
Brahmānanda: ...they would help us acquire land for a Gurukula. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...sent Praṇava, how is that there is no news about the land? (end)
Prabhupāda: ...one man?
Devotee (1): They only take one master usually.
Brahmānanda: It's a German dog.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Don't care for other?
Devotee (1): No. They train them that way.
Brahmānanda: What are those, deer?
Satsvarūpa: This is a zoo.
Kuruśreṣṭha: Those are elk. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...your American Congress Library they placed a standing order, eighteen books, whatever I published each book. So I have tried so many, what is called, GBC. They are not very expert to organize in India. So if you think you can do it... Now we have got sufficient place in Bombay. So if you take charge of this distribution of books not only in India but neighboring countries just like Hong Kong, Singapore, if you think you can do that, that will be nice. You have got experience, how to distribute books. So you think over. Now we have got very nice place in Bombay. We have got place for at least fifty men very comfortably. Is it not?
Prabhupāda: We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying unless there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to train. That we are giving, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...?
Prabhupāda: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the śāstra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pitā na sa syāj janani na sa syād gurur na sa syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devakī. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahmā to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devakī got Kṛṣṇa as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal.
Prabhupāda: Thank you, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. He is being trained up. Just see how he is taking lesson. So it is possible. So from childhood, if he is trained up, then in future he will become first-class man.
Jayatīrtha: Sometimes people complain that we don't give our children any right of free choice, that we train them in our own way.
Prabhupāda: This is nonsense, to give free choice to the child. This is nonsense. Child should be protected. That is intelligence. That is the wrong type of consciousness. According to Vedic civilization, a child, a woman, a brāhmaṇa, a cow, and an old man they should be given protection, not freedom, but protection.
Jayatīrtha: At the same time in that Time article it discussed that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under eighteen and people are afraid even to go to the schools.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only that they have given photograph: the children take small..., yes, weapon, knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the education.
Prabhupāda:
(I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.)
Ladies and gentlemen, regarding Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement... (about microphone:) It is working? We are talking about the spiritual existence of the living being. By evolutionary process we come to the human form of life, and here we have got developed consciousness. We can decide now which way to go forward. There are different planetary system. That we can experience. We can see innumerable planets, upwards and downwards. So the upper planetary system is called Svargaloka, or the heavenly planets, and the middle planetary system is called Martyaloka or Bhurloka, in which we are staying at the present moment, and the down planetary system is called Pātālaloka or downwards. Downwards means fall down, upwards means getting promotion, and middle means we remain where we are now. That is... Indication is given in the Bhagavad-gītā, ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthā: (BG 14.18) "Those who are cultivating the modes of goodness, they are promoted to the higher planetary system." And madhye tiṣṭhanti rājasāḥ. "Those who are passionate or under the modes of passion, they remain in the middle planetary system." And jaghanya-guṇa-vṛtti-sthā adho gacchanti tāmasāḥ: "And those (whose) character is very abominable, they go down." And beyond this, there is another nature. That is called spiritual nature, which is beyond this material universe. There, we understand, that is eternal. This material nature is not eternal. It is manifested or created, and again it is dissolved or annihilated. But beyond this material nature, there is another nature. There are also innumerable planets. They are known as Vaikuṇṭha planets or Vṛndāvana planets. That is the kingdom of God. If we transfer ourself to that eternal nature, then we won't have to come back to this material nature again. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramaṁ mama (BG 15.6). Anyone who goes to that eternal nature, he hasn't got to come back again to this material nature. The material nature has been explained as duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam (BG 8.15). Material nature is full of miserable condition. And the most miserable condition is explained as janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: (BG 13.9) birth, death, old age and disease. So we living entities, we are eternal, part and parcel of God. God is eternal and we are also eternal. Just like gold and little portion of gold. Both of them are gold, but the big gold and the small gold, that is different. Similarly, we being part and parcel of God, qualitatively we are one; quantitatively we are different. Although we are different, still, in the spiritual world we can enjoy the same facilities in cooperation with God. We are trying to be happy in this material world. That is not possible. Because here there are four principles of miserable condition, which we cannot avoid. They are birth, death, old age and disease. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as birth, death, old age, and disease. Therefore in this life, in the human form of life, where we come after evolutionary process, 8,400,000 species of life, our consciousness being developed, we should decide now whether we shall remain within this material world or we shall go to the spiritual world where the life is eternal. There is no birth, death, old age and disease. So the Vedic civilization trains all human being how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is Vedic civilization. We cannot be happy in this temporary material life. We are working very hard, but if we work a little only, not very hard, there is no need of working very hard. We have created a civilization that we have to work very hard. The Vedic civilization does not recommend that for sense gratification, you shall simply work very hard, day and night. This is not very good life. You should know what is the value of life, what is the aim of life. God has provided everything for our living condition. We should be satisfied, whatever is alloted by God, and save time for being promoted to the spiritual world. That is the arrangement already there by nature.
Reporter: When does this training begin? In the very youngest age or...
Prabhupāda: Training, every training should begin from childhood. Just like you send your boys and girls to school. So any educational system should be begin from childhood.
Reporter (2): What is the secret to learning to love God?
Prabhupāda: Secret of learning God?
Jagadīśa: Learning to love.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The secret—that he must be a first-class man. Otherwise he does not understand what is God, and what to speak of loving Him.
Reporter (3): What is the definition again of a first-class man?
Prabhupāda: First-class man? Where is that Bhagavad-gītā?
Brahmānanda: Bhagavad-gītā, they did not bring.
Prabhupāda: (aside:) What is the nonsense? You are all nonsense. First-class man, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, that he should first of all try to..., not try, practice how to control the mind, how to control the senses. Then he must be truthful. He must be very clean, outside and inside. He must be very simple. He must be tolerant. He must be full of knowledge. He must apply knowledge in practical life. And he must believe in God. These are the qualification of the first-class man.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any class man, you can train him. It requires training. Even one is in the last-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class, if he likes he can be trained up to become a first-class man.
Reporter (3): How many followers do you have?
Prabhupāda: Well, to find out first-class man is very difficult. Therefore, our followers, you cannot count a large number. We are training them to become first-class man. Still, we have got about ten thousand followers in the western countries.
Reporter (3): In the western countries.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Reporter (3): Where do you train them in the western countries?
Prabhupāda: We have got our headquarter in Los Angeles and we have got many centers all over the world.
Reporter (4): Who is God? Who is God?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotees: Who is God?
Prabhupāda: Who is God? God means, you know... You have got any definition of God?
Reporter (4): Pardon me?
Harikesa: Do you have a definition of God?
Reporter (4): That's beside the point. I am asking the Swami who is God.
Prabhupāda: God is great. "Great" means, "who is greater than you in every respect." We understand a rich man as very great, a wise man as very great, a strong man is very great, beautiful man is very great. In this way there are six opulences: riches, strength, wisdom, beauty, education... In this way the six opulences, when you find in somebody in full, in complete, without any competition, that is God.
Brahmānanda: Well, it's the idea, though.
Jayatīrtha: Yeah. "The Swami now lives in Los Angeles, and he trains his followers there. Their income is from sales of his books, magazines and incense. He says he has about ten thousand followers. 'We do not have so many,' he said..."
Prabhupāda: The inner meaning is there: "I shall be arrested."
Brahmānanda: Yes. (laughs) That shows what is the position.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: "He said he has about ten thousand followers." Quote: " 'We do not have so many,' he said, 'it is hard to find a first-class man.' " And then she says...
Prabhupāda: Therefore without first-class man, nobody can become my disciple.
Jayatīrtha: Then she says, "It's a pity half the population are women."
Prabhupāda: I didn't say half the population...
Brahmānanda: That's her comment.
Jayatīrtha: That's what she said. In other words...
Brahmānanda: Her comment is that if you hadn't...
Jayatīrtha: ...that half of the people are disqualified already because they're women. It's not so bad.
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is not bad. It is good. Now our policy should be that at Dallas we shall create first-class men, and we shall teach the girls two things. One thing is how to become chaste and faithful to their husband and how to cook nicely. If these two qualifications they have, I will take guarantee to get for them good husband. I'll personally... Yes. These two qualifications required. She must learn how to prepare first-class foodstuff, and she must learn how to become chaste and faithful to the husband. Only these two qualification required. Then her life is successful. So try to do that. (Car doors open, walk begins) Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education. (break) Yesterday we saw in the television how these rascals are wasting time, talking nonsense. There was nothing, valuable talk. Foot... No, no, hand... What is that? Handprint? And the addicted murder? That was the case? (break) Within two weeks, two divorces.
Prabhupāda: That should be followed in our system. Boys and girls must be separate. (break) ...introduce now. How long? What is time?
Brahmānanda: It's still a little early.
Prabhupāda: Early? (break)
Guru dāsa: The concept in sport of celibacy is also there. The best sportsmen are supposed to not take intoxicants or also engage in sex life. That was the training. (break)
Ravīndra-svarūpa: ...will end in this park here.
Prabhupāda: Oh. It will come this way?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: It will come from the other direction and end here. Down under these trees is a very nice place. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...going through the city?
Ravīndra-svarūpa: We go through the city. The city's just on the other side of these trees.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of our Godbrothers asked why the inductive knowledge is so successful, especially to scientists?
Prabhupāda: Inductive knowledge always unsuccessful.
Prabhupāda: I will never die.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
Reporter (2): Are you training a successor?
Prabhupāda: Yes, my Guru Mahārāja is there. Where is my photo of Guru Mahārāja? I think... Here is.
Reporter (2): Why does the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement not engage in social protest?
Prabhupāda: We are the best social worker. People are fools and rascals. We are teaching them nice idea of God consciousness. We are the best social worker. We will stop all crimes. What is your social work? Producing hippies and criminals. That is not social work. Social work means the population must be very peaceful, wise, intelligent, God conscious, first-class man. That is social work. If you produce some fourth-class, fifth-class, tenth-class of men what is social work? We are producing that. Just see. Here is first-class man. They do not have any bad habit, illicit sex, intoxication, meat eating, or gambling. They are all young men. They are not addicted to all these things. This is social work.
Dharmādhyakṣa: He recently retired, and he was lamenting how young people are shunning science now. Young people are not so interested in science. He was also very disappointed that the new scientists were not as well trained as the old scientists and did not have the same desire to serve science.
Prabhupāda: What they will do by serving science? The birth, death is already there. So they are becoming saner, that "What is the use of wasting time in this way? We cannot solve any problem." That is sense. They cannot solve any... He is still alive or died?
Dharmādhyakṣa: He's alive.
Prabhupāda: So ask him that "Find out some bomb that you will not die. Why don't you do that?" (laughter) Yes. "People are dying, and you have invented something to die very soon. So why don't you invent something that you will never die? Can you do that? Therefore we are no more interested in science. It is a waste of time." Tell him. You go your professor. "You are regretting that young men are no more interested. So this is our reason because, after all, we have to die. Everything will be finished. Then what is the use of studying? You have not improved anything. The animals have also two legs, and two, four legs. We have got also four legs and where is the difference? You say, the Darwin's theory, from monkey, man has come, but you never shown us that a monkey has ever given birth to a man. So all this false propaganda, we are no more interested."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped in spite of that... instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, "What we shall do with so many bulls?"
Nityānanda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen.
Prabhupāda: No, what the oxen will do?
Nityānanda: Plow the fields.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields. That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Kṛṣṇa conscious, they will think, "What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them." Which one? Huh? That? We shall get on?
Brahmānanda: Yes. (end)
Prabhupāda: Very good news. (aside:) Good morning. (break)
Ādi-keśava: ...and to tell you that he will be distributing over fourteen thousand of your big books every month, 125,000 of your Back to Godheads, and at least ten thousand of your medium size books, like the Kṛṣṇa trilogy book or the Beyond Birth and Death, those books.
Prabhupāda: So he is going over Tripurāri?
Ādi-keśava: Well, Tripurāri is also with us.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Including both.
Ādi-keśava: Yes, both. Now, what is happening, Tripurāri is training some of our men in the airports. He is training nine new men to distribute big books in the airports, men who were before distributing only the magazines. Now they will go to the airports and learn how to distribute the big books. And also some of Tripurāri's men have taken over the leadership of our parties to help the new men to distribute also. So that way they are cooperating. (end)
Ādi-keśava: When we were coming over here, we were discussing how in this whole park, there is this big huge park, and only two or three men maintain the whole park because they don't have enough money to pay them. Yet if you go to the street not so far down from the temple, there are so many men just sitting in the street doing nothing all day long. And yet they say there is a shortage of men to work in this place to make it nice.
Prabhupāda: It is defective training, bad civilization. They cannot employ everyone. (break) ...religion stresses that everyone should be engaged. No one should remain idle. That is the government's duty. Bad government.
Ādi-keśava: But the government says it is every man's freedom to work or not to work.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is his irresponsible government: "It is man's freedom—he may eat or may not eat." It is saying like that.
Ambarīṣa: They would rather not work if they don't have to.
Prabhupāda: Why we are working? Eh? Why we are not for that freedom, that "We shall not work"? Why we have engaged ourself for working?
Ādi-keśava: For Kṛṣṇa.
Indian Man (2): Prabhupāda, these people, dogs, mostly are atheist? Atheist, they take the birth as the dog?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless one is atheist, how he takes to dog? Theist takes to God, and they takes to dog. That's it. Not only animal dog, but they associate with a human dog, two-legged dogs. There are four-legged, and there are two-legged dogs-human being, but dog. He is also like dog, although he has got two legs and they have got four legs. In the parks it is by law prohibited to take dog, but he is dog. He violate the dog's law. Therefore he is no better than dog. (break) ...defect of modern civilization—they are keeping people as dog, and they want to make them human beings by law. They are thinking, "If we impose this law, things will be all right." But how things will be all right? If you keep them dog, how the things will be all right? So we are training from dog to humanity. That is our special activities. We do not keep them as dog. We bring them to become godly. Then things will be all right. Other so-called gurus, they keep the disciple to remain as dog. Please pay him, and he... Asikbada—he will be all right. This is going on. (break) ...our class begin?
Brahmānanda: What time do the Deities open?
Viśvakarmā: Usually the Deities open at seven.
Prabhupāda: So we shall go back?
Viśvakarmā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You do not know?
Indian Man (2): Some ji(?), they make it like that and this and that. They make the fool people. How can we convince that something, that knowledge is there. But they want immediate to know it to believe it.
Prabhupāda: That is their rascaldom. One wants to be learned without going to the school. Is it possible? So they are rascals. What can be done? They don't want to go to school and take the training, and they want to pass M.A. examination. This is their proposal. So these rascals should be kicked out. That's all.
(break) ...is: tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena (BG 4.34). First of all you surrender; then you ask question. The rascals first of all will question. And when he is satisfied, they will surrender. This is not the process. The process is first of all surrender; then question. Otherwise you have no right to question, waste time. (break) ...is the sinful part of water. This is sinful part. There is sinful water and pious water also. So this water is sinful. Drinking of this water is prohibited.
Harikeśa: In America they use maple syrup a lot, maple syrup. Is that also part of the sinful reaction for the trees? Yes.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...eḥ?
Viśvakarma: No, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Only fuel. They are called fuel. They are meant for using as fuel.
Bhagavān: They will surrender to the misery, but they will not surrender to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is their disease.
Yogeśvara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? When you speak of taking care of your responsibilities for Kṛṣṇa, doesn't that also have a material aspect to it? Just like a parent must bring up the child, must take care of the child, train it to read, and to write, and so on...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That means we are taking care of the children—why? Just to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious, not to become cats and dogs. This is our responsibility. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious, that "Here is a child. He may be saved to make him Kṛṣṇa conscious." Therefore we are taking so much care in the Dallas. We are not irresponsible. But our responsibility is there, that "Make him Kṛṣṇa conscious."
Yogeśvara: So when we say that we have finished all responsibility by surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, that doesn't mean that we've abandoned execution of duty, does it?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Who says that?
Yogeśvara: Well, some people say that "You've taken to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and now you have given up all of your..."
Prabhupāda: It is not duty? This is the main duty. This is the main duty. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66). We have taken responsibility for Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We are doing. Why we are traveling all over the world thrice in a year? We have taken the responsibility. Otherwise, who is, an old man, he'll take such responsibility? That is a greater responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Brahmācarya. Brahmācarya means completely cessation from sex life. This is brahmācarya. Tapasya begins, austerity. This is the greatest austerity, to cease sex. Tapasa brahmācarya. Our Vedic civilization, the boys are trained how to become brahmacārī from the very beginning of life.
Indian: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Ha. (break) ... putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva. Our existentional position should be purified. How? Tapo, by tapasya. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattva (SB 5.5.1). "And we are enjoying life. Why we should undergo tapasya?" And you are enjoying, but you are not enjoying; you are suffering. Even if you think you are enjoying, there are so many sufferings. That the foolish people, they do not know. Just like a healthy man, he thinks, "I am enjoying," but he does not see that even he is now healthy, he will be an old man, he will be attacked with disease, he will die, and still he thinks, "I am healthy." Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānudarśanam (BG 13.9). Therefore the intelligent man will see that "Where is my enjoyment if I am going to die? I don't want to die, but I am going to die." That is sure, as sure as anything. And still the rascal will think that "I am happy." He will become old man, he will be attacked with disease, and still he is thinking that he is happy. Apart from this, there are so many other sufferings, but he thinks that he is happy. And that happiness is centered around sex. That's all. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). Their only happiness is sex. Therefore in the Western countries they are simply trying to increase the sex enjoyment. That's all. Is it not?
Devotees: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, these boys who are recruited newly. They don't have much about the idea of Vaiṣṇavism.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's a fact. But what can I do? They are my helper.
Dr. Patel: They have to be trained up earlier and then let loose. Otherwise, you know, they create it. Because all the bad impressions are for them.
Prabhupāda: No. They'll be trained while working. Not that simply theorizing at home, no.
Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think...
Prabhupāda: They should work, and at the same time, they may fall down, just like a child tries to walk, falls down, again walks, again... Then he becomes complete.
Dr. Patel: Those thirty characteristics of a sādhu that are depicted in the, in Bhāgavata....
Prabhupāda: That is not possible in one day.
Dr. Patel: Thirty cannot come, but a few should come.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Few that... They are... Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate (SB 5.18.12). If they have got unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa and guru, that is all qualification.
Prabhupāda: Try. Foolishly you try whatever you like. That is another thing. But it is not under your control. You can try. That is your... Of course, you must try as a dutiful father, but you should know that you cannot take any guarantee or do anything, good or bad. That you have already said, "the destiny." That is prominent. That is prominent, not you.
Cyavana: The tendency of the humans...
Prabhupāda: You can do the best to train your child to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is in your power. That you can do. That is the best service, not anything else. That is not possible. If you become yourself Kṛṣṇa conscious, and if you try to make your son Kṛṣṇa conscious, that you can do. And that is the duty, real duty. Other things, you cannot do anything. That is destiny. And if you make him Kṛṣṇa conscious, then destiny can also be changed. This is the concession of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Destiny also can be changed. Karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Bs. 5.54). One who comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his karma is also changed.
Cyavana: Is that karma dovetailed?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That includes everything. It is called mahā-mantra. It includes all mantras. Gāyatrī mantra is not to be chanted in the public loudly. That is not the system.
Indian man (1): Not to be chanted.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: In the public loudly.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, in this country we have to do army training, and on a Sunday we have to attend a church service. We have to attend it. Is it all right to say that we won't attend it because we follow Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or must we go anyway? It's sort of a Christian denomination service on a Sunday.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. Those who are doing nothing, for them to attend the church at least for one hour, that is better than... Something is better than nothing, you see. That is good. People have completely forgotten God. They are doomed. So better to remember at least for some time. That is good.
Indian man (3): We would like you to stay more longer in this country.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian man (3): We would like to request you to stay more longer in this country.
Prabhupāda: So if you start a good center I will stay and see that things are going on. (aside:) Just take this stick.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Not simply by rubber stamp.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. He must agree, "Yes." Therefore guru is required. Guru means, accept guru means, "Whatever you say, I will accept." That is guru. Otherwise friendly talk. Friendly talk will not do. To accept guru means "Now I accept you, guru, my instructor, without any argument," and that is acceptance. "Whatever you say, I shall do." That is agreement. Then he can be reformed. Śiṣyas te 'ha śādhi mā prapannam: "I surrender unto you. I become your disciple. Now you train me." Then he can be reformed. Otherwise not possible. (break)
Devotee: When we were at school we accept a teacher and he teaches us mathematics or something like this, but when it comes to spiritual life and we accept a guru, people criticize by saying, "Oh, you're not thinking for yourself anymore."
Prabhupāda: Yes, you have surrendered. You say, "Yes, we have surrendered. That is the way." Tad viddhi praṇipātena (BG 4.34). The first term is "surrender," praṇipāta. Otherwise it is not possible. If one does not surrender, there is no question of reformation. He must voluntarily surrender: "Yes. Whatever you say, I shall do." Then things can be advanced. Otherwise not possible. (end)
Indian man (1): But can a person become a brāhmaṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Why not?
Indian man (1): Doesn't it depend...
Prabhupāda: It is training. How they are become brāhmaṇa? According to śāstra, they are coming from mleccha, yavana. How they have become brāhmaṇa? More than brāhmaṇa. But they are abiding by the rules. You see? They are accustomed to eat meat from the very birth. They have given up. And if we request Indians, they will not give up, although their forefathers never ate meat.
Indian man (1): Does it say somewhere in the Bhagavad-gītā that we shouldn't eat meat?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Ahara-śuddhi. There are three kinds, four kinds of ahara: sattvika, rājasika, tamasika. Everything is there. The classification of ahara. Meat is tamasikāhara, fourth class. It is not first class.
Indian man (1): When the Aryan civilization was there in the past, Swamiji, were there also such kind of economic problems?
Prabhupāda: There was no economic problem. Every time... Always this system is followed: cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭām (BG 4.13). And it is the duty of the government to see that this classification is properly being executed. That is the duty of the government. Secular state means that as you like, you can become. But if you claim to become a brāhmaṇa, you must act as a brāhmaṇa, not that you act as a śūdra, bangi, and also you are brāhmaṇa. No. That will not be allowed by the government.
Indian man (4): And their theory is that... I asked Pramukh Swami that "Why you have put this? Why you say to your disciple that we should not see the face of the woman?" He said that, "We should avoid." But I said, "Well, okay, when you are walking on the road automatically you will see the ladies." He said, "We turn our face to one side." I said, "First you have seen the woman. Then you are turning." (laughter) "You will look further. You have not seen the women. You have no sense, you know."
Prabhupāda: These are all bogus things. One should train himself that matravāt para-dareṣu, all women, "my mother." Then it will be possible to live... Therefore the etiquette is to address every woman, "Ma, ma, mother." That is the etiquette.
Brahmānanda: You say like "Mother Rukmiṇī"? There's a devotee named Rukmiṇī. You say, "Mother Rukmiṇī"? How do you address a woman? Do you say, "Mother," and then the name of the devotee?
Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply.
Brahmānanda: Just "Mother."
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be addressed, "Mother." That will train.
Indian man (4): In our Indian culture they don't call the name of the mother never, children don't.
Prabhupāda: No. "Mother," simply "mother," that's all. And if the woman treats man as son, then it is all right. It is safe.
Prabhupāda: All unfortunate, now they are. They have been so much trained badly. They say frankly, "Oh, this Hare Kṛṣṇa we have seen." In America when they chant... The Americans are chanting on the street, and the Indian students, "Oh, this we have done much. We have nothing to..." Here also they are thinking like that: "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement? Eh? A beggars' movement." śāstra says, harer nāma harer nāma harer nāmaiva kevalam (CC Adi 17.21), and these rascals are thinking, "Oh, Hare Kṛṣṇa we have seen." You see? They have become so greatly intelligent, these rascals. They do not believe in śāstra, in sādhu, in God. All these "incarnations" and big, big men, they say, "Oh, what is the use of śāstra?" Even this Ānandamāyā says that "In higher advancement there is no need of śāstra." He is above śāstra. He, she says like that. And Kṛṣṇa said, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma-kārataḥ, na sa siddhim avāpnoti (BG 16.23), immediately condemned: "If you don't believe in śāstra, you are rascal." Kṛṣṇa said. And they say, "Oh, there is no need of..." And he's an incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. This Bal-yogi rascal is doing that: "There is no need of śāstra." This is going on. Now he's finished, of course. His activity is finished. (break)...strength of śāstra we are challenging that "You have never gone to the moon planet." Who can do so? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, "You have never gone to moon." Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (end)
Dr. Patel: Whatever type of education may be, but that is the real education.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Not whatever. This is the education, that the...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. This is education. There is no question of ABCD. First of all brahmacārī gurukule vasan dantaḥ. He is to be trained how to become sober and gentle.
Dr. Patel: Self-controlled.
Prabhupāda: That is required. That is education. This is not education. They are killing the teachers. They are killing teachers. You do not know?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: In the examination hall the police is there, and if the guard detects, "Oh, you are taking notes from books," then he will be killed. So many teachers have been killed.
Indian man (3): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Police, under police they are. I saw in Delhi. One school I went, and the police is there, examination room, but all thieves, rascals. And they are sitting in examination for passing, all rascals.
Prabhupāda: And daṁpatye ratim eva hi: "Husband and wife means sex." Daṁpatye ratim eva hi. This, everything is there.
Dr. Patel: The ideals were established so high that it was difficult for the common folk to reach that.
Prabhupāda: That is not for common folk. It is for the rājarṣis-imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ—not for the loafer class. Therefore the whole population was trained how to become rājarṣi. Now the loafer class, they are taking the place of rājarṣi. That is the difficulty. Kṛṣṇa says that this science is meant for the rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). He did not go to preach to the loafer class.
Dr. Patel: That is why it became naṣṭa.
Prabhupāda: No. The system was naṣṭa. A loafer class, he became a student of Bhagavad-gītā. That is...Therefore it is naṣṭa. Sa kāleneha yogo naṣṭaḥ parantapa. And anyone, any rascal, is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā. But it was meant for the rājarṣi.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I must have read at least, if not more, at least twenty commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā. But I found the best by Ācārya Rāmānujācārya and yours.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mahāṁsa: Well, Haṁsadūta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.
Prabhupāda: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.
Mahāṁsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.
Prabhupāda: Train them, train them.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: To give a manager right way, Haṁsadūta said.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He can give a manager for the farm.
Mahāṁsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.
Prabhupāda: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasādam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasādam? Every day there must be huge prasādam distribution.
Mahāṁsa: Many people?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasāda distribution. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...thing produced, that should be used as prasādam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?
Mahāṁsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's fine.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They should be asked to leave.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must cooperate.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: (break) The problem that these foreign, some of these foreign devotees that have come lately, they have been such loose devotees that the temple presidents, they want to get rid of them; they are sending them to India. Three people came from Rūpānuga's zone; and they were all useless devotees. They won't listen. They just ran away from Bombay. So I wrote a very strong letter to Rūpānuga Prabhu. I said, you know, they should screen the devotees before they send them to India. What they are doing is they are sending their rejected devotees to India. If any devotee is not good in their zone they say, "Okay, we'll send them to India." But here we have such big projects that we need devotees who will follow the rules strictly and who will listen to authorities.
Prabhupāda: So tell them. If they have rejected and you also reject them, where they will go? Hm?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, we will train them, but these devotees don't cooperate very much. (end)
Dr. Patel: Not "I have done this."
Prabhupāda: No, no. I don't say. This is the philosophy. Amānitvam adambhitvam. Where is that thing? That is taught from the brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, a small boy, he is taught that you become amānitvam adambhitvam, and he accepts it. Because he is small, the brahmacārī, he may becoming from a king's family, but if he's ordered, "My dear boy, take my shoes and brush it," he'll do it, because he's innocent boy. He learns. Therefore brahmacār gurukule vasan dānta. The mode of life should be trained from the brahmacārī.
Dr. Patel: This British public school, sir, they are doing that. The school of Harrow and the Eaton. The first-standard boys have to brush the shoes of the fifth-standard boys, and the fifth to the sixth, and the sixth to the seventh, and first to the second...
Prabhupāda: No, why not to the...
Dr. Patel: And the first boy, his shoes goes to the teacher.
Prabhupāda: Some idea...
Dr. Patel: That is great idea.
Prabhupāda: No. That is also imperfect. Anyway, it is something. Amānitvam adambhitvam: they from the very beginning of their life, they address other's wife as "mother," you see? Matrvat paridaresu. This is culture, to see every woman except his own wife as mother. Where is that culture?
Prabhupāda: And "Why you are searching out God here and there? There are so many Gods loitering in the street." This is the Vivekananda's statement. And therefore everyone is God. Everyone is thinking, "I am God." This is going on.
Śravaṇānanda: When we went to try to arrange a lecture at their football field for a pandal program, they said all the people coming would ruin the turf for cricket season. So they didn't have time for spiritual training, they said, only for the physical training. It caused too much damage on the field.
Dr. Patel: In my school, sir, where I was educated, in the entrance there is a statue of Sarasvatī, and nearby there is a photograph of Kṛṣṇa. I don't know how it came, that one.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dr. Patel: All are not like that. In my school where I was educated, secondary school, in the entrance there was a statue of Sarasvatī, and near that was Kṛṣṇa's photo. (pause) (someone shouts Hare Kṛṣṇa)
Prabhupāda: In good health.
Jayapatākā: (break) ...minister is coming to the district and...
Prabhupāda: Which minister?
Jayapatākā: The Ajit Panja. He's the health minister. So we didn't see him...
Bhavānanda: (break) ...that we must take drastic steps for curbing the population.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you become brahmacārī?
Hari-śauri: Too drastic.
Jayapatākā: We want to present that we are, by moral training, achieving that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are making them celibate. What is called? Celibacy.
Jayapatākā: Even our gṛhasthas, they are only having one or two children. (end)
Prabhupāda: That is gradually. Gradually. If he cannot give up meat-eating, so, "All right, don't eat cows' flesh. You eat hogs. That's all." But the real purpose is to stop meat-eating. And that is also under restriction. "You can eat one goat. Sacrifice it before Goddess Kālī under such and such rules and regulation. Then you take one piece of meat at night." So any sensible man—"Why I should undergo such rules and regulation for eating a little piece of meat? Better give it up." That is the idea. It is not that encouraging him. What is the meaning of encouraging? He is already eating meat? Why śāstra should... The real way, nivṛtteḥ... Pravṛttir eṣāṁ bhūtānāṁ nivṛttes tu mahā-phalam. The pravṛtti, the inclination, is there. Now train him to give it up. That is wanted. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam (SB 5.5.1), that "Tapasya is your business." Tapo divyam. The human life is for tapasya-athāto brahma jijñāsā—only discussion on Brahman, to understand Brahman, and tapasya. Therefore you find in India so many saintly persons, highly educated brāhmaṇas, high literature, everything.
Acyutānanda: So many born śūdras are śūdras, many times.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: But artificially the government process is to give benefits and prestige to the harijanas without being qual...
Prabhupāda: Without training.
Acyutānanda: Training.
Prabhupāda: Without making him harijana...
Acyutānanda: A harijana may become a brāhmaṇa, but sometimes a harijana is a scheduled caste.
Prabhupāda: Harijana means methara. As soon as he comes, if he says, "I am harijana" then immediately you understand that he is a sweeper.
Acyutānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This is the position.
Prabhupāda: Oh, very good.
Acyutānanda: And then they pick it up. We tease them. And Nectar of Devotion also.
Prabhupāda: Science of...
Acyutānanda: Of how to train the mind.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Acyutānanda: And...
Devotee (1): Āgamas.
Acyutānanda: Yes, and...
Prabhupāda: Practice devotion.
Yaśodānandana: Because it is a thick book which is also not so expensive, people like it very much.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yaśodānandana: Also with color illustrations.
Prabhupāda: Now you can give still cheaper, when you print here.
Acyutānanda: Yes, that is what we were wondering.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Madhudviṣa: So therefore the essence of the philosophy must be there. And you have also said that the meaning of disciple means discipline, so the devotees have to be trained certain disciplines in their devotional life.
Prabhupāda: Discipline... Disciple means discipline. The word discipline comes from disciple, or disciple comes from discipline. So unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. This discipline must... That should be uniform. Otherwise, śiṣya... Śiṣya, the word śiṣya, it comes from the root, verb, śās-dhātu. Śās. Śās means ruling. From this word, sasana. Sasana means government. Śāstra. Śāstra means weapon, and śāstra, scripture, and sisya... These things have come from the one root śās-dhātu. So śās-dhātu means ruling under discipline. There is another English word, that "Obedience is the first law of discipline," or something. They say, "Obedience is the first law of discipline"? So I am right? "Obedience is..."? That is the...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's more or less what it is.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the word, exact. There is an English word. "Obedience is the first law of discipline." So unless there is obedience, there cannot be any discipline. And unless there is discipline, there is no question of disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline.
Pañca-draviḍa: Eight years. But the thing is, it's difficult for them to assume or take part in Hong Kong because it represents something like several million capitalists, which they have no use for in their country. For thirty years they've been training people in Communism. Their whole culture is centered around that Chinese language. Our books are in English, but their whole culture is...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Our Chinese Gītā is coming out. It should be ready in two weeks.
Prabhupāda: It is not our policy that the whole country will be on our side. That is not.... At least some of them may be interested. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yaśodānandana Mahārāja says that the Chinese Bhagavad-gītā is ready for publication.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's at the printer. It will be ready in two weeks.
Revatīnandana: Another interesting thing about China is because they have such a huge population, in order to feed the population they've had to turn to production of agricultural products rather than meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the only way. That is the only way. If you want to make them happy.... That we are preaching in the Bhagavad-gītā. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Produce grains. Everyone will eat nicely, and they will be happy.
Prabhupāda: What is the value? If you are calling him to take education from the school, that means he is accepting authority. Let him be educated at home. Why the college?
Devotee: But in the classrooms, they simply...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, first of all, the principle? What is this principle?
Rāmeśvara: To train him in the methods of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means authority. You are teaching him to accept the authority. And you are teaching against authority. Everything contradictory. One side, contraceptive; one side, illicit sex. And the.... But Vedic civilization says, "All right, as soon as woman is widow, let her remain as a saintly woman—no more sex." But "No, you can marry and you can have sex hundred times daily, but use contraceptive." Is that civilization? To train one woman not to have any more sex, this is also contraceptive. And another way that "You can have sex any amount, as many times as you like. Take this contraceptive." Whose civilization better? And you call him to be trained up to accept authority and teach him, "Don't accept any authority." Is that education? Nonsense.
Prabhupāda: There is.... The brāhmaṇa... This is brāhmaṇa. This formula is there. Satya śamo damas titikṣā ārjava. So you have to see whether he is possessing this quality. Or train them. Have brahminical school, what I am willing to do. That is required absolutely. There must be a class of men, perfect brāhmaṇa. Otherwise society will be ruined. In the Western countries there is no brāhmaṇa. There may be some kṣatriyas and vaiśyas only, and śūdras. Brāhmaṇa there is none. So the same thing is here also now. Therefore the whole society is going down. There is no brāhmaṇa. What is this? This is brahminical culture. We are asking them not to be sinful, become devotee. This is brahminical culture. Namo brahmaṇya-devāya go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca, for the benefit of brahminical culture and cow protection. That is brahminical culture.
Jayādvaita: So to be recognized as brāhmaṇas...
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayādvaita: To be recognized, our men will have to be, as you were saying yesterday, perfect gentlemen.
Prabhupāda: Yes, brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. Brāhmaṇa means perfect gentleman. A rogue, thief, cannot become brāhmaṇa. (laughs) Brāhmaṇa is perfect gentleman. Who feels for others, that is gentleman. Who does not feel for others, for his sense gratification, he is a rogue. A brāhmaṇa, a gentleman, must feel that "Why there should be animal killing?" That is gentleman. If you are killed, you cry and you are.... Hundreds and thousands of animals you are killing on the plea that they have no soul? Lowest class, narādhama. They have been described as narādhama. So narādhama civilization, how he can be happy? There must be frustration.
Prabhupāda: First World War, yes. That was futile. Again you have started United Nation. Where is the benefit? There cannot be benefit. If you keep the dogs as dog, you bring them, "You Australian dog, come here, and American dog, come here, and European dog, come here. Live peacefully," will they live peacefully? So if you keep the human society as cats and dogs, how can you expect peace? They must be human being. Then there will be peace. So this is the training how to make human being, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Now these boys, they are also Europeans, Americans. They are coming from respectable, very educated.... They'll never ask for a chair. "Sit down. That's all." The necessities of life, artificial necessities, reduced, and time is saved for understanding the value of life. Without motorcar your life will not be spoiled. You can walk. But without Kṛṣṇa consciousness your life is spoiled. So how.... We recommend that "First of all understand yourself." Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is your prime business. And so far necessities of body, that can be done according to the circumstances. So if we simply waste our time for increasing unnecessary necessities of life and do not try to understand the value of life, then we remain animal.
Prabhupāda: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education.
Mr. Dixon: When we learn...
Prabhupāda: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother.
Mr. Dixon: Women as?
Prabhupāda: All women.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: As mother.
Mr. Dixon: As mother.
Prabhupāda: Mother. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu. This is the original system of education in India, mātṛvat para-dāreṣu, to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat: "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Mātṛvat para-dāreṣu para-dravyeṣu loṣṭravat, ātmavat sarva-bhūteṣu: "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself..." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is paṇḍita, he is learned. And another three things,
When you accept Kṛṣṇa, or God.... When I say Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not.... Why do they not pass a resolution that "This earth planet..." Take.... Only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the..." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come because you think it is your land.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you very much. (break) ...Bhagavad-gītā. Dharmāviruddho kāmo 'smi, "Sex life which is not against religious principles, I am that." Not that sex life, as soon as you like, sex. That is not gṛhastha. That is gṛhamedhī. Dharmāviruddha. Dharma-aviruddha means simply for begetting nice child you can have..., not for enjoyment. Putrārthe kriyate bhāryā. This is Vedic principle. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. A bhāryā, wife, is accepted only for having son. Not for any other purpose. Putraḥ-piṇḍa-prayojanam. This is material side, but still, it is religious. First education is brahmacārī, how to train him to avoid sex life. And still if he's not able, then he is allowed to become a gṛhastha, a little concession. Otherwise, the whole Vedic civilization is: how to avoid sex life. Brahmacārī—no sex life. Vānaprastha—no sex life. Sannyāsa—no sex life. Only gṛhastha, under control. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhastha does not mean one who is doing everything whimsically on account of getting this concession. He's not gṛhastha, he's gṛhamedhī. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām (SB 2.1.2). Śrotavyādīni rājendra nṛṇāṁ santi sahasraśaḥ, apaśyatām ātma-tattvam... (SB 2.1.2). Gṛhamedhī means he does not know what is spiritual life. That is gṛhamedhī. And gṛhastha means he knows what is spiritual life, and he lives on that status. That is gṛhastha. Gṛhamedhī's definition is.... Everything is there in the śāstra. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam. They do not know what is the aim of life. It is like something, something like cats and dogs. They do not know. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). (break) So he'll speak to you. You know English, you can read books.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of your disciples, Praghoṣa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurāri trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this.
Prabhupāda: Now in India also they are trying. Yaśomatī.... Yaśodānandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Karnataka.
Prabhupāda: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupāda's books very favorably.
Prabhupāda: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't approach those men.
Prabhupāda: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time.
Prabhupāda: So when it is used for Kṛṣṇa.... Just like these rascals, they do not know. They wanted to use it for themselves. It is ugly, no fruit. We see near Bombay, they have got so many coconuts. How beautiful it is with fruits and leaves. Because we use it for Kṛṣṇa. (indistinct) "Oh, they have got fear(?). The coconuts will fall down on your head." (everyone laughs) And they make it ugly. They kill children, but we, we're training children how they're offering obeisances. We do not kill. We beg them Kṛṣṇa conscious. So our activity all spiritual. (break) ...afraid of population. We say "Create any number of population, but make them Kṛṣṇa conscious." That is our restriction, that if you cannot make your children Kṛṣṇa conscious, then don't beget. And if you can do that, then hundred children can be got. Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. This is our.... We say that if you cannot beget Kṛṣṇa conscious child, don't become father and mo.... And if you can produce Kṛṣṇa conscious children, then become father and mother hundreds of children.
Hari-śauri: The karmīs are always in anxiety about something or other.
Prabhupāda: Ha?
Hari-śauri: The karmīs, they're always fearing something.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (2): They say this is accident. This is philosophy. This is...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That action was created by God. That accident was created by God.
Hari-śauri: Also, a cartoon somebody put in the paper and it shows...
Prabhupāda: They'll accept accident, but not God. Just see his intelligence. He'll accept accident, but not God.
Devotee (2): Most of the philosophers who have this atheistic philosophy, most of them are trained...
Prabhupāda: Therefore they are suffering. Why don't you see that? Some of them dying by eating their own stool?
Devotee (2): Actually, at the end of his life, he (indistinct) some disease, and he went literally crazy.
Prabhupāda: Disease already there. Old age is already there. That means God is there. They're being punished, but they are so shameless they'll not accept the truth. Same thing. The (indistinct), they're being punished every moment, every step, "No, God is not there." All right. Wait a few years more, God will show either you are dead or He's dead. (laughing)
Hari-śauri: I saw this picture once that somebody had drawn. There's a man holding a sign saying "God is dead," and there's a big hand squashing him right on the floor, it's coming from the sky, it's squashing him on the floor, and his sign up on the side saying "God is dead."
Devotee (3): They say that actually there never was any God, it's just a belief that man had.
Devotee (2): ...revolutionary questions that you're asking because they never stop to ask... They say that you cannot accept any philosophy, why are they giving their philosophy? No one every thought to ask that question.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Everyone is rascal. Therefore I say all rascals. They have no sense. If you want me to pose your philosophy, why shall I not impose my philosophy? I've got the same right. Why should I accept yours?
Devotee (2): Philosophers are saying that there's no philosophy, but they're giving their philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Attentive.
Reporter: You don't see any slowing down of the impact of...
Prabhupāda: No. It can be slowed down unless we spoil it.
Reporter: Is there anyone who is designated to succeed you as the primary teacher of the movement?
Prabhupāda: I am training some, I mean to say, advanced students so that they may be very easily take up the charge. I have made them GBC. They are under my direct training, and I think they will be able to conduct this movement.
Reporter: Do you expect to name one person as your successor or have you already?
Prabhupāda: That I am not contemplating now. But there is no need of one person. As other things are managed, but by committee, so this can also be managed, and the committee may elect one person as chief. As, just like in the democracy there are senators and there is president, so it may be I may nominate or they can nominate.
Reporter: Do you feel are you in good health now? You look it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. After all, of course I am some eighty, eighty years old. And I complete eighty years next September. So the age is there, although I am feeling not aged by..., the effect of age must be there.
Prabhupāda: (break) Worshiping Deity.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Oh, they're doing that beautifully, and they're expert cooks. They're very good devotees.
Rāmeśvara: They could just be so valuable to helping our temples if they agreed to preach to our devotees. They could train. (break) ...brought the reporters from Time magazine over to see our temple. I had Mother Yamunā prepare some prasādam, and she was also serving them, and then she was explaining about prasādam and preaching. So I could understand that as long as she stays on that farm, she's limiting herself, because she's an excellent preacher. She could be very valuable, expert preacher. In her.... Their idea is that they would like to make their farm a little bigger, with more women living with them.
Prabhupāda: I like that idea.
Rāmeśvara: There will be no man to help give advice, just the women manage it all themselves.
Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana there is bhajanāśrama, they're only women.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śyāmabhajis?
Prabhupāda: Not śyāmabhajis, but bhajanāśrama.
Rāmeśvara: So that's a good idea.
Prabhupāda: With man is dangerous for both. I, I have given that: man is good, woman is good, when they come together-bad. Both of them bad.
Prabhupāda: Paintings? Our students did.
Rāmeśvara: Our art studios are here in Los Angeles.
Interviewer: What happens when that inevitable time comes when a successor is needed?
Rāmeśvara: He is asking about the future, who will guide the movement in the future.
Prabhupāda: They will guide. I am training them.
Interviewer: Will there be one spiritual leader, though?
Prabhupāda: No, I am training GBC, eighteen all over the world.
Rāmeśvara: His personal secretaries.
Interviewer: I see.
Rāmeśvara: To see that the original teachings that Prabhupāda has given are not in any way changed.
Interviewer: Well, nothing more? Then ah, thank you, and I wish you well in your travels.
Rāmeśvara: We have given him many books to read and magazines, so he's already preparing the article from that material we have given him.
Prabhupāda: For a common man it is little difficult, but it is very easy. We are talking of the spiritual platform, but common man does not understand what is spiritual, although it is very easy. My body, your body, is moving on account of spiritual spark. That's a fact; everyone can see. As soon as the spiritual spark, soul, is off, the body, it is simply lump of matter. That is a fact; everyone can see. But still they are not serious to understand what is that spiritual spark. There is no education. Mostly they are thinking there is no spiritual spark, the body is moving.... How it is moving? What is their explanation?
Rāmeśvara: That's in America also. If your father dies and he leaves you his wealth, the government will take half of it. You have written in the Fourth Canto that because the government is so expert in taxing, the people are becoming so expert in cheating the government...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...to avoid the taxes. So the government is simply training the people how to cheat.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: And then you wrote that one day the people will..., the taxes will become so great that the people will revolt, refuse to pay, and then the government will be finished. There will be chaos. You're giving all these warnings, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You've also warned them about taking the oil from the earth.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. I think of these things. No, there is analogy, just like when you fly in the sky, you take sufficient petrol in the wings, sufficient, so many thousands of gallons. And if there is no petrol, then you'll fall down. So I theorize these things, (laughs) that these planets are floating in the air on account of petrol. If you finish the petrol stock, then we drop. Analogy. Indirectly, my desire is that "Why you are wasting your time in this way? Your life is short here. Then utilize it for self-realization. What is the use of this civilization, civilization that for artificial necessities of life you waste your whole duration of life and next life you become a cat or dog? Suppose you are successful in this life manufacturing these big, big skyscrapers. Next life, if you become a cockroach in the same house, toilet room.... There is possibility." Kṛṣṇa..., tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). You have to change your body, and there is no guarantee that you'll have to change in this type of body. Any body. The cockroach is also a body. Therefore they don't believe in the next life.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? That's nice.
Jayādvaita: The only place I found some difficulty is that sometimes if there is some discrepancy in behavior of our students, some petty stealing or something like that, then that is...
Prabhupāda: That you have to train our men so that they may be well behaved.
Jayādvaita: In Laguna Beach we had so many complaints, that they were trying to stop the temple. And their main complaint was that the devotees were taking flowers from people's gardens and without any permission, without any, simply taking. And just on that account they wanted to stop us. Some petty stealing, fifty dollars worth of flowers.
Prabhupāda: So why our devotees should take flowers from them? Stop it.
Jayādvaita: Yes, I stopped it. Instead I sent a letter to the neighbors that no one is taking flowers and we are planting a big garden. Now they've done that, and the neighbors come and they appreciate that such a nice garden is there, they remark.
Prabhupāda: You can make them friends, that "Your flowers in the garden will dry and fall down, so while it is fresh, if it is offered to God, and you'll get benefit out of it, why you object?" Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Happily they live. As soon as there is no quarrel between the husband and wife, the home will be happy. And as soon as there is misunderstanding between husband, wife, it will be hell. So the principle is the husband honestly tries to earn livelihood, and at home the wife should be so intelligent that whatever money the husband has earned, she'll manage. She'll not demand, "Bring money, bring money, bring money. Otherwise it cannot be..." Then the home will be happy. So where is that training?
Stansky: Well, there is no training here, there is no culture, as you pointed out.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say culture, not training.
Stansky: As a matter of fact, even among the educated classes in the United States, there is no culture. There are no cultural roots.
Prabhupāda: No, no culture. There is no culture. There is no standard social life. Simply hodgepodge. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is the only hope to bring everything in proper order. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. So America is the leading nation of the world. If you work on the principle of Bhagavad-gītā and train up your people, it will be ideal state and example for the whole world. At least a certain section of the American population should be ideal. That will also do. Not that..., we cannot expect cent percent will take Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not needed. But if there is one section of the people ideal, that will be followed. We want to create that section, our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Hari-śauri: (laughs) He was becoming very enthusiastic. He was very enlivened. Anyone with a little intelligence, as soon as you begin to speak to them, they, immediately, they become so much enlivened. He's obviously, he's had some idea about organization and whatever, but he's never seen it practiced. And now he's come here and seen it practical.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is practical training. That is wanted. Simply theoretical knowledge.... That is helpful, but training, that is the greatest need, that we have to create a set of first-class men. Then the world will be all right. That is an attempt of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to make first class, ideal. Why they'll be attracted? They are seeing that "The priests are doing the same thing as we are doing." So how they will be attracted? Therefore Christianity is failing. They are also having the meat, illicit sex, drunkard, and they're priest.
Hari-śauri: They've watered down so much, there's no value left to what they're doing. They're exactly the same as a man in the street, except he says he believes in God and the man on the street says he doesn't believe. And they have no ability to convince a man that God exists. They have no scientific knowledge or whatever.
Prabhupāda: Simply by the position: "I am Cardinal," "I am Pope," "I am priest," "I am that." How long it will go on?
Hari-śauri: It's not going on very much longer anyway, there's so many, it's falling apart. There's so many branches, just the fact that there's so many divisions now of Christianity, that this man was speaking about this charismatic movement. Now this is the young people. They're feeling a need for God, so they're trying to express it through another concocted form of Christianity. But that will also be a failure.
Prabhupāda: Let us try honestly, that's all.
Kern: How about people who aren't first-class intelligence, people, as you mentioned, the foolish. What message...?
Prabhupāda: No, they should be trained up. The foolish man.... Just like a foolish child can be trained up to be very nicely educated to pass M.A. examination. Child is..., all children are foolish. That is accepted. But by training him, we can make him the first-class intelligent man.
Scheverman: Training and discipline is a very important aspect of your asceticism.
Prabhupāda: But that training is wanted at the present moment.
Scheverman: Yes, I think that, I would agree that the willingness of modern...
Prabhupāda: There's no training to qualify a person to become first class. There is no training.
Kern: I'm thinking of the retarded, the Mongoloid, the encephalitis, those who are born with...
Prabhupāda: Nobody's born intelligent; that is not possible.
Kern: No, I understand. You see, it mentions in there that.... I was thinking what message do you have for the parents of a child...
Prabhupāda: How to train them first class.
Kern: Cannot walk nor talk.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is another.... That is exceptional. Generally, anyone is born, according to Vedic civilization, everyone is born fourth class. When he takes his birth, it is to be accepted he's a fourth class. Now by training, you can make him first class, second class, third class. By birth, everyone is fourth class.
Kern: I saw a film of a leader of ours, Jean Vanye(?) from Canada and France. He took five thousand retarded.... In Spanish, we say (indistinct), to Rome just for the experience. And they were all in wheelchairs, old and young and small ones—not understanding very much, but a wonderful experience for them, the weak and the wounded.
Jayādvaita: (explaining to Prabhupāda) One priest took many handicapped people, who...
Prabhupāda: No, why you are speaking of handicapped? Who has taken the handicapped? Handicapped is handicapped.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Our program for them is also like this, to give them spiritual...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from that, we shall deal with the handicapped later on.
Kern: That's my, that's my...
Prabhupāda: First of all, we take the general people.
Kern: No, but you were saying that you speak, you are looking for the intelligent, the...
Prabhupāda: Not looking for. I am talking that anyone can be, I mean to say, elevated to the intellectual platform by training. Not the handicapped. Handicapped, there are special cases. That is another thing.
Kern: But...
Prabhupāda: Generally, everyone is born fourth class. Is to be understood. But by training such people you can make them division, first class, second class, third class.
Scheverman: I think we certainly would have no quarrel with that. I think Father's concern is what is your message for, what is your attitude toward those who are handicapped in our society? How do you respond, how do you treat those?
Prabhupāda: Handicapped.... Suppose your hand is cut. So I cannot bring another hand to join. It is not possible. Suppose your hand is cut. The handicap, now "handicut." So can I join any other hand? Is it possible?
Kern: No, but...
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of...
Kern: No, but you can..., my point is if a child would be born...
Prabhupāda: I'm talking that those who are handicapped, by nature defective, we shall deal with them. That's all right.
Prabhupāda: Then you are unable. You have to accept it. But as far as possible we can give them help. That is not the question. Question is, those who are not handicapped, they are rotting without education, without enlightenment by keeping themselves as fourth-class, fifth-class men. Why not train them to become first-class men? That is the point. If one is blind, you cannot give him eyes. If one is lame, you cannot give him leg. That is beyond your ability. That is another thing; we shall deal with them later on. First of all, those who are born as human beings, why should you keep them as third-class, fourth-class men?
Kern: So this is a development. Saint Ignatius did the same, somewhat. When he began, he sought the leadership. And he sought the intelligent, so that they might do what.... Obviously, you do it also, seeking the leadership that can then teach. We call it sometimes elitism, and this is perhaps a good word for it.
Prabhupāda: So you find out the verse, satyaḥ śamo damas titikṣā, the qualification of brāhmaṇa. Here, it is meant, the first class, second class, third class, fourth class. Yes.
Prabhupāda: So where is that institution who is teaching these things?
Kern: He said that the monastery did not teach this. I don't know if you can generalize about all monasteries.
Prabhupāda: I don't say monastery. I'm speaking that this is the way of training. Even a third-class born or fourth-class born could become a first-class man. This training should be given. There must be an institution how to become peaceful, how to become truthful, how to become honest, how to become religious, how to become believer in God. Why not this institution? They have opened institutions how to learn to deal the hammer, technology. But if, in the society, there is no first-class man on this basis, then who will guide? If there is no brain, then who will guide the hand or the leg?
Scheverman: So your particular plan is then to provide this kind of enlightenment, this kind of direction and education, through the ascetical process in which your group is involved. Yes. We, of course, have made efforts along this line through our schools and through our religious communities that have been successful more or less depending on efforts given to it.
Prabhupāda: The second-class man is also described, who is the second class.
Prabhupāda: This is second class. They are not first class, they are second class. First class is above mentioned.
Scheverman: The brāhmaṇa
Prabhupāda: Yes, then second class. Second class also required.
Scheverman: Also requires training, yes.
Prabhupāda: Suppose if there is war. So first-class men, they cannot go to fight; they are not trained up. But the second-class man who is trained up.... What is that quality?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Courage in battle."
Prabhupāda: Courage in battle. Now we have got report that in Vietnam battles, what happened?
Hari-śauri: Whenever they fight, most of the soldiers run away.
Prabhupāda: Run away. (laughter) He's fourth class. He has been placed in the second class. So how he'll do the...
Scheverman: Yeah, but we have a principle called "A man tends to rise to the level of his incompetence." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: These are the defects of the society at the present moment. A fourth-class, fifth-class man is on the first class or second class. Why Nixon had to be dragged down? He's a third-class man.
Kern: Doctor, do you recruit people to come?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we are inviting everyone come. We have no such distinction.
Kern: I have four young alcoholics I'd like to send over.
Prabhupāda: No, these boys and girls are not imported from India, recruited. They are recruited here. I came alone. They are all recruited. I have got so many centers all over the world. They are simply recruited.
Scheverman: Your asceticism, your way of life, your training program, having its Eastern origins, has a great appeal, I think, for many young people.
Prabhupāda: It is not Eastern, Western. It is the life. Just like to become peaceful, is it Eastern or Western? Peaceful is peaceful. Why do you bring Eastern?
Scheverman: No, but the way in which, the method in which..., is it Eastern? This is not to say it is bad; it is good too. There are many traditions....
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say, it we look for Eastern, Western, then it become sectarian. But it is for all. If you teach a person to become peaceful, it is not the question of Eastern and Western. It is meant for everyone.
Scheverman: Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall see God." Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's right. That's right. So why should you say that it is Eastern or Western?
Scheverman: Well your methodology, much of your personal vocabulary, your garb, is from the East.
Prabhupāda: It is not personal. It may be said that in Eastern countries or in India, these things are very much appreciated and developed. That is another thing. But the thing as it is, it is neither Eastern or Western.
Kern: May I ask you, Your Excellency, your own background? Were you born in India? Were you born in any other...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am Indian. I was born in Calcutta.
Kern: In Calcutta. And when you were there in Calcutta, did you receive the training?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I..., fortunately I was born in a very good family. So our familywise training was there. Especially in India, every family, it is like that. Trained up.
Kern: And your own schooling, then, in the local schools in Calcutta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not in the school, but in my family.
Kern: In the family. Any formal?
Prabhupāda: Not family. My mother taught us: if there is one grain on the floor, we shall take it, keep it on the head. It is God-sent.
Kern: Yes, and our mothers too, the same thing.
Prabhupāda: It is God-sent. The grain, food grain, it is actually given by God. You should not misuse it. This was the beginning of our training.
Kern: Did you then begin, after you finished the university, did you begin your writing?
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I was family man. But even one is family man, he's trained up how to become God conscious. So that was the.... That is, practically every Indian, at least in our time, they were trained up how to become God conscious in the family life. Therefore there is classification—the brāhmaṇa, the kṣatriya, the vaiśya. So these four classes, that first-class man, brāhmaṇa, the brain..., taking instruction from the first-class man. And then the third grade, the productive class. So you read there the third class.
Scheverman: So I can see that this is probably an important element that appeals to most of the young people that come to you is this training that can be received in this particular way. I can also see too that somewhere..., I'd like to move into this area of religious experience.
Prabhupāda: I shall request that.... There is no question of Eastern, Western. Now people are intermingling. Now I think that we shall have institution, especially in America, to train these first class, second class, third class, and the balance fourth class. Who cannot take up any training, they are fourth class. So how they should be trained up, that indication is there. It is not the question of Eastern and Western. You become peaceful...
Scheverman: Now, how would you proceed in this training program? I'd be interested in that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... If I say that "Live peacefully," this instruction is neither exclusively for America or Indian. It is for everyone.
Prabhupāda: Self-control. This is also not either for American or.... "The Americans should not be self-controlled, only Indians should be self-controlled." (laughter) This is not the proposal. Self-control. Then?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Austerity.
Prabhupāda: Austerity. Tapasya. Austerity means that naturally I am inclined to do something. Take, for example, generally people are addicted or inclined to eat meat or to drink. Natural. Not for all, but a class. But if I train him that "Although you like this, you should give up this," that is austerity. He feels some inconvenience in the beginning.
Scheverman: Austeritos is a Latin word that refers to strength. To be able to stand and be sharp and deciding.
Prabhupāda: So this is austerity, when voluntarily accepting something which he does not like to give up. That is austerity.
Scheverman: Disciplined.
Prabhupāda: Discipline, yes.
Prabhupāda: Honesty. So there are so many things. If we want to make the whole human society very peaceful and happy, then we have to divide the society into four classes. Not that everyone will be peaceful. That is not possible. But if we have an ideal class of men who is following austerity, peacefulness, purity, knowledge, people will learn: "Oh, here is the ideal class."
Kern: Mr. Gandhi had a great effect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That training is lacking now.
Scheverman: I think all over the world it is lacking, it is needed, right.
Prabhupāda: All over the world, yes. Therefore.... In your country.... You are opulent in every respect. You should.... We are cooperating, we can cooperate. Let us start that "Here is a school or college..." Just like there is engineering college, technological.... Here is a college to learn how to become first-class men. Why not?
Scheverman: It is part of your plan to operate schools for this purpose?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.
Scheverman: You hope eventually to have schools where training of this kind can be given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is wanted.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (to devotee) What is the purport? You just explain.
Hari-śauri: Prabhupāda wrote that on the bills, the monetary, on the coins or whatever, they put "In God We Trust," but actually no one understands. If you want to trust someone, then you have to know who that person is, you have to know that he's actually trustworthy. So he was asking that we could cooperate together, the American government and our movement, and we could train people practically how to trust God, like that. So Prabhupāda sent that letter. But that was a month ago, and there's still no reply.
Scheverman: To the Secretary of the Treasury? Is that it?
Devotees: The Secretary of the President.
Scheverman: The President, White House Secretary, his personal secretary.
Hari-śauri: So far, after one month, there's no reply.
Scheverman: Bureaucracy. We have lots of that. You may get a reply, and then again you may not. You'll get a reply, but it would be very general I presume, originally. It's a good idea.
Prabhupāda: No, I think that for the welfare of the whole human society.... America is opulent. They can start, that here is a college for training first-class men. Here is a college for training second-class men, and here is a college for third-class men, and balance fourth class. Fourth-class man doesn't require any training. They are simply to help the first class, second class, third class.
Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? You do not like to train first-class men?
Scheverman: Everybody wants to be first class.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so why not train him? If I simply by imagination, that "I have become first class," will that do? Simply by imagination, I have become a medical man, will that do? You must have training.
Scheverman: So you say put him in a training program, and if he can make it, okay, and if he can't make it, then he'll be..., he goes as far as he can in training program.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that process we can help. Therefore how to become peaceful.
Kern: Are all the people here first class?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are training them at least.
Kern: We're training them for first class
Prabhupāda: To become first class. Because there is a great need of first-class men.
Scheverman: Indeed there is, indeed there is.
Kern: Do you have any in training for second class?
Prabhupāda: No, for the time being. (laughs) We have no means. Suppose.... Second class means he must be courageous to fight. So I have no means how to train them, you see? And without training, the second class, if you send him to the war, the experience is they will flee away. The many enemies coming, and they are going away.
Scheverman: Are you training people to become teachers in this school, this process of education?
Prabhupāda: Yes, as soon as you become. Without being first-class man, you cannot teach. A second-class, third-class, fourth-class man is not meant for teaching.
Scheverman: Where would you do this teaching?
Prabhupāda: Teaching everywhere, wherever there is possibility.
Kern: Do you do this by yourself? Are there any teachers?
Prabhupāda: No, I give them ideas, they go and teach. It is not one man's business.
Kern: No, I understand. Will you be here a good long while? Or will you be going to...
Prabhupāda: The thing is that I have established so many centers. So I have to go from one center to another just to encourage them. Otherwise I am old enough. I am eighty years. So traveling is not very good job for me, but still I do it just to encourage them.
Prabhupāda: So many things. It is going on. So unless there is first-class man, who will guide them?
Kern: I think you ought to eliminate the second-class man who are soldiers. If you're training a man to be a soldier, he wants to fight.
Prabhupāda: That's all right; fighting is also required. When there is enemy, we are not discarding fighting. Fighting there will be. So long we are in the material world, there will be disagreement and there will be fight. You cannot stop it; that is not possible. So a class of men, they should be trained up fighting. A class of men, they should be trained up for teaching. A class of men for producing food. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). There are so many things. If you take advantage of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement cooperatively, it will be very, very good for the whole human society. And if your America takes up this call very seriously, others will follow.
Scheverman: Well I would be very interested, as the man who lives across the street right over here, pastor of St. Mark's parish, in talking with your local leadership and discussing whatever programs you are interested in working in this particular community. And I think perhaps...
Prabhupāda: No community—everyone is welcome.
Scheverman: Well, there are ways in which we might work together and cooperate.
Prabhupāda: Just like a school. A school is open for everyone. Whoever wants to take up education, he can come.
Prabhupāda: Just like a school. A school is open for everyone. Whoever wants to take up education, he can come.
Scheverman: I can understand that very well, because I have been a teacher for many years, and also the principal of the school, and can understand your educational concepts and the importance of them. You cannot operate a school without discipline, without training. People cannot use their brains useless they are in order.
Prabhupāda: No, there must be proper training.
Kern: God consciousness..., would you explain something of the religious experience of God consciousness?
Prabhupāda: No, God consciousness is the highest level. It is not possible for everyone. But in whatever platform he is, if there is cooperation with God consciousness movement, then he gets the result. Just like in this body.... Same example: leg's duty is different and brain duty is different, hand's duty is different, belly's duty different, but when there is cooperation, all the parts of the body derive the same benefit.
Scheverman: Yes, I see. So if one has the experience of God in a cooperative, well, good and sound social body, then all will profit from that experience.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There is no such word as Hindu religion. You do not know. There is no such word as Hindu religion, at least in the Vedas. The religion is translated into Sanskrit as "characteristic." Religion is not a kind of faith. Just like chemical composition. Sugar is sweet—that is religion. Sugar must be sweet. Sugar cannot be pungent. Or chili must be pungent. If chili is sweet, we reject it, and sugar is pungent, you reject it. Similarly, our Vedic system is to train the human being to the ultimate goal of his life. That system is called varṇāśrama-dharma, gradually training the person how to become perfect human being and understand the goal of his life. That is our activity. It is not meant for any particular sect or particular nation. No. It is meant for the whole human society, how to make them perfect in the goal of his life.
Kathy Kerr: Through what means do you train the human being to become, to achieve his ultimate goal in life?
Prabhupāda: To understand his spiritual identification. At the present moment, this age, all over the world, things are passing on on the bodily concept of life. But we are not this body. That is the defect of modern civilization, that there are two things—one, the body; and the moving force which is moving the body. So they are taking care of the body, but they have no information what is that moving force. They are presenting some foolish theories that the body is moving by chemical composition, by this, that, but actually they do not know what is there. The chemical composition..., what is that? Frankenstein or something?
Jayādvaita: Frankenstein. (laughter)
Kathy Kerr: Does that mean then that once the immediate corporal body is dead, the one that you have...
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have to conclude.... This is, what is called, logic, that my, I have changed my body, still I am living. Therefore when I change this body, I shall live. This is the logic.
Kathy Kerr: Does your spiritual body keep the same training that you...
Prabhupāda: Same, that is another.... Just like you are in different type of dress, I am in different type of dress, that is another thing. Dress may be changed in different types, but I, the owner of the dress, is the same. Now a person, the same person, when he's dressed as a high-court judge, he's dealing differently in the high-court. And the same person, after giving up his garment of high-court judge, he talks with the wife and children in a different way, talking. The wife does not address him, "My lord." The wife calls, Mr. John. "John, why you are doing this?" She has no respect, as the respect he gets in the court. Man is the same, circumstance is different.
Kathy Kerr: So that means then that our society then gives certain people certain status just because of their job, that's not correct.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We must come to the correct position of our spiritual life, then it is perfection of life. Otherwise, they're ignorant. If the husband comes at home and the wife calls him by the name, "John, come here." "Oh, you are not addressing 'my lord,' " it will be ridiculous. He might be "my lord," in the court, but when he's in the family, the wife calls by the name. So our, with the change of dress we are changing our name, circumstances, thoughts, and everything. Therefore we find differentiation. American, Indian, Hindu, Muslim, black, white, this, these are all designation of the dress. And therefore we do not agree. As soon as I accept, identify myself with the dress, there will be disagreement. And as soon as we, everyone of us, we know that this is superficial, this is dress, I am spirit soul, then there will be agreement. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, find out this verse. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54). So without this understanding they have opened United Nations, keeping them cats and dogs. And they are simply barking, that's all. This is going on. For the last forty years simply they are barking. What achievement is there? In your country, who is the president gave the black man same liberty?
Jayādvaita: Lincoln.
Prabhupāda: You see these two things especially, that they.... English is their mother tongue, mother language. They can easily become English scholar very easily. And Sanskrit language is no difficulty. Read and write, read and write, then he will learn. Our education in Sanskrit was in college. Of course, I was the best student in my class of Sanskrit. I was standing first. But we are not like the so-called Sanskrit scholars. But for our purpose we can read and write, that's all. Similarly, we don't want any very learned scholars, Sanskrit grammarian to manufacture jugglery of words, meanings. No, we don't want that. Simply we can conduct our business, that's all. Just like Marwaris, they, their education is up to their business understanding, that's all. They don't want to be scholars or technologists. You won't find in big, big Marwari family they have become a doctor, engineer or technologist, no. But in business dealings they are first class. (laughs) That they train. I had one Marwari friend in Calcutta. He was a very rich businessman and has got several (indistinct). So sometimes I went to his house. I saw that he had engaged a Sanskrit paṇḍita and an English teacher. That's all. So I asked him, "You don't send your children to school?" "No, no, no, no. I..." If we require some technologist, we can purchase. You pay some money; so many technologists you will get, M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C., C.H.C. All right, take payment and do business (indistinct). They employ very, very, very large salary. But on the head, management, their own sons, grandsons.
Prabhupāda: The real education is life. Gurukula means it is a way of life training. It is said that brahmacārī gurukule vasan dānta. This is the way of life: how to learn controlling the senses. Nowadays we have got school, colleges, universities, but this method is not there, how to become dānta. The method is different, that "You can do whatever you like; you simply attend class." That is not the way of life. This is tapasya.
All these things, tapasya can be executed simply by learning devotional service. Then everything is there. Kecit kevalayā bhaktyā. So we are describing these things in our books. If these books are made textbook.... I think in some of the colleges they are making textbooks, our books, in Germany, in Hamburg University. There is university of the name Hamburg?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: East Berlin.
Prabhupāda: They have taken some of our books for textbook.
Prabhupāda: Indian families, they are living for two, three generation. (break) ...teaching them how to make home comfortable, they'll be trained up to become prostitutes. How to kill time. (break)
Hari-śauri: I think Tamāla was saying in New York they need good cooks there. Tamāla was saying that in New York they don't have very good cooks there.
Prabhupāda: Nowhere there is good cook except here. (laughter) Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is good cook.
Hari-śauri: He's trained everybody up very nicely.
Kīrtanānanda: Prabhupāda knows how to flatter. Well, I think even we could not cook so good in Boston or New York. Without being in Vṛndāvana and the natural ingredients, it is not so...
Prabhupāda: You can supply them ghee.
Kīrtanānanda: Yes, we can do that.
Prabhupāda: You grow podina? Podina? Mint? Mint?
Kīrtanānanda: Mint? Yes.
Prabhupāda: Chutney.
Prabhupāda: So this was my dream, that a place should be there where we can get all nice foods, best foods, of milk. Kṛṣṇa is fulfilling our desire. Everything's there. Simply these rascals they do not know how to live or to eat. Everything there. Intelligence is there, everything is there. Simply for want of training they have become rogues. Make them human beings, your countrymen. Everyone should follow the duty. Materially and spiritually. Anyway... Here is very nice. It is a winter season of Kali-yuga. These months, June, July, August, up to September?
Kīrtanānanda: No, actually up to November. The devotees like the winter, though.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Kīrtanānanda: It is even more conducive to think of Kṛṣṇa in the winter.
Prabhupāda: So the neighbors they like it? Neighborhood men?
Kīrtanānanda: Most of them like us. There are a few that don't like us. But they are not violent. They are a little nasty.
Prabhupāda: Nasty they have been trained up to be. (Sanskrit) Once trained up nastily, it is very difficult to...
Kīrtanānanda: The state police in this local area has become very favorable to us. During that quarantine the state police had to stay here. So they even began to come to ārati. They took our books; they were reading. There's been a lot of change in some of the government. Some of the government men are now much favorable, more understanding.
Prabhupāda: Whatever was there, it was due to misunderstanding.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Jagannātha Suta. This was in Māyāpur. (continues reading) "But in America people are very much afraid of the central government"—this is the reporter—"because they think that wherever there is a strong government there will always be tyranny."
Prabhupāda: "If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny."
Reporter: "But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt."
Prabhupāda: "You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt."
Reporter: "What is that training process?" Prabhupāda: "That training is the varṇāśrama-dharma, a system of dividing society into four social and four spiritual orders according to people's natural quality. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be one nation under God."
Reporter: "But if society is divided into different groups, won't there be envy?"
Prabhupāda: "No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg, but when I tell the hand, 'Bring a glass of water,' the leg will help. The leg is required and the hand is required."
Reporter: "Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on."
Śrīla Prabhupāda: "Yes. Just like in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. You come to consult me about every activity because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life, the common cause, and they should train the people to work for the common cause Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing. They are cheating. They are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime posts. This system is bad."
Reporter: "So if we don't choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?"
Prabhupāda: "You require brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras. Just as when you want to construct a building you require engineers. You don't want sweepers. Isn't that so? What will the sweeper do? No. There must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varṇāśrama, only kṣatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly, the senators, only qualified brāhmaṇas. Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher. But by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness society we are actually doing that. But in the case of politics they forget it. There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness. Because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause, to maintain the body properly."
Prabhupāda: Yes?
Kīrtanānanda: And they will be our future community.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Kīrtanānanda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Mahārāja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Kṛṣṇa personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, both. Balarāma has got the plow, tilling ground, and Kṛṣṇa has got the flute to enchant the cows. Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Mahārāja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Kṛṣṇa never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gītā you'll find.
Prabhupāda: So where is that institution to train people to acquire these transcendental qualities? There is no such institution. We are attempting to qualify the man in transcendental qualities. This is the only institution. Otherwise, where it is? I don't think, throughout the whole world, there is any institution to train the students in transcendental qualities. Who cares for transcendental qualities? Go on.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "In the varṇāśrama institution the sannyāsī, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brāhmaṇa is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the kṣatriya, the vaiśya and the śūdra. But a sannyāsī, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brāhmaṇas also. For a sannyāsī the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyāsī has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks 'After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Kṛṣṇa, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramātmā, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Kṛṣṇa as Paramātmā will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. 'I shall never be alone,' one should think..."
Prabhupāda: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: No, dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre... (BG 1.1).
Prabhupāda: They were happy. Otherwise they could not fight. They are not Vietnam soldiers, when they are attacked they are going away. They are not like that. They are determined that "I'll either lay down life or gain victory." That is their... They were not afraid of fighting. Do you think they were afraid of fighting? That is real kṣatriya. Yuddhe cāpy apalāyanam. That is real kṣatriya training.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I mean to say that they may consider that this is a selfish type of happiness, though. Not taking into consideration...
Prabhupāda: They may think... They are rascals, they cannot think anything. We haven't got to reply all of them. Because they are rascals. They can talk all nonsense. We haven't got to take care of... Just like a child, he's talking so many foolish things. Sometimes we reply, "Yes, yes, we know." But we don't take seriously anything, anything spoken by a child. So these rascals may go on talking so many things, but we haven't got to take care of all of them. We have to do our own business. Let the dog bark on, the caravan will pass. So not that we have to take care of the barking of the dog always.
Prabhupāda: Actually, destiny cannot be checked. That I have already given. Even Mahatma Gandhi could not. The destiny you cannot check.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But then the question may be raised if destiny cannot be checked, then why not, when a child is born, simply let him like an animal run around and whatever happens to him...
Prabhupāda: No. That is the advantage of... you can train him spiritually. That is possible. Therefore it is said, tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido (SB 1.5.18). For that purpose you engage your energy. That is open. Ahaituky apratihatā. The devotional service, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, apratihatā, it cannot be checked. Material destiny can be checked, or it cannot be checked. Similarly, your advancement in spiritual life cannot be checked if you endeavor for it. But your advancement of so-called material happiness, that is already destined. You cannot check it. Try to understand this.
Prabhupāda: But it cannot be done. This is another foolishness. Because Kṛṣṇa says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). But the difficulty is the caste system is coming on account of false notion that a brāhmaṇa is the son of a brāhmaṇa. That is caste system. But Kṛṣṇa does not say. He says, "By quality and work." He never says, "By birth." So this so-called castism in India that is a false notion of cātur-varṇyaṁ. Real cātur-varṇyaṁ means guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. One must be qualified. And how one is qualified? That is also described. Satya śamo damo titikṣva ārjava jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyam. So there must be education. It is not that to abolish the caste system which is contaminated by false conception, or birth right conception. This wrong caste system should be abolished and training centers should be opened how to train a person to become brāhmaṇa or to become kṣatriya. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. So you cannot avoid it, but because you have misconceived the caste system, that should be abolished, and the system recommended by Kṛṣṇa, that should be taken. Otherwise you cannot avoid it. Caste system will remain. Just like truthfulness. So all over the world you'll find somebody who is truthful. Why do you take it: "His father was truthful, therefore he is truthful."? This is nonsense. This is nonsense. Kṛṣṇa never said that. The father may be Hiranyakasipu, but his son is Prahlāda. Or a son... Not that the, one has to become exactly like the father. It may be. There is every possibility, but it is not a fact that the son becomes like the father. It is not fact. So similarly, the first class man is truthful. Now, wherever you find a truthful man, you classify him as brāhmaṇa. That is wanted. Why do you take that "Here is a son of truthful man; therefore he is brāhmaṇa"? That is misconception. You have to pick up the truthful men all over the world and classify them as brāhmaṇa. That we are doing. "If you follow these principles, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating, you are brāhmaṇa. Come on." His father may be meat-eater or gambler or drunkard, but he is agreeing, "All right, come on, this come. You are welcome." Then it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: That is another misgiving. They will never be able to learn Sanskrit, and neither it is possible that by learning Sanskrit they will be elevated. There are many Sanskrit scholars. So how they are elevated? They are rotting. It is not a good suggestion, this. If the harijana actually becomes harijana, then it will benefit. That training we can give. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is that we can make a harijana, a so-called, I mean to say, camaras, bhangis... Now they understand harijana means he must be a camara or bhangi. But that is not the actual... harijana means devotee, "The man of Hari." So in spite of their illiteracy in Sanskrit language, we can make him harijana, actually. So why do you take the trouble of learning Sanskrit? Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). Pāpa-yoni means low-grade birth. So anyone. That includes the camaras, bhangis, they can be purified if they take to the shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Because Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. The best thing is to induce them to come to Kṛṣṇa. Then they will be purified. And the simple method is recommended by Kṛṣṇa Himself and Caitanya Mahāprabhu, His incarnation: this kīrtana. Engage them in saṅkīrtana movement which is being pushed by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and they will be purified. They don't require to learn Sanskrit even. As he, it is. Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and they will be purified. And if you want to teach them Sanskrit, it will take three thousand years. (laughter) That is impossible.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You started this explanation by saying, "But who will take it?" So is this to say that this religion that you're speaking of is not trying to be made acceptable to the masses, or is it only for those who will take it?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Unless you take it, where is question of religion? So that requires guidance. Just like to make a child educated, there is teacher required. Automatically how he can...? A child, now you give him a rubberstamp, "Now you are MA." Is he MA? He must be guided to pass the MA examination, then he'll be, he's MA. And "Because he is born in a certain family, he cannot be MA," that is not the fact. He can be MA provided the guidance is there, training is there. He can become MA. It doesn't matter that because he is lowborn he cannot become MA. No. He can become. The training is how to take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It appears from his question that his idea is that Hinduism is so flexible that whatever condition of life the masses are in, Hinduism will kind of envelop them, and they can still call themselves Hindus. But what you're saying is that actually the standard is there...
Prabhupāda: We have already refuted. There is no such thing as Hinduism in the Vedic conception. It is sanātana-dharma or varṇāśrama-dharma.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The next question, Śrīla Prabhupāda, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varṇāśrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varṇāśrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varṇas. Some of them selected, trained as brāhmaṇas. Some of them trained as kṣatriya, some of them as vaiśya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are śūdras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varṇāśrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). One may... Saṁskārād bhaved dvija. And Sanātana Gosvāmī says that
As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the śāstra.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the śāstras one should be elevated to the position of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśyas, and śūdra. Śudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brāhmaṇa, as a kṣatriya, as a vaiśya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Kṛṣṇa says pāpa-yoni? Pāpa-yoni. Striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās. They are also taken as pāpa-yoni. And what to speak of the śūdras and caṇḍālas? They must be pāpa-yoni. Only the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brāhmaṇa, who is kṣatriya, who is a vaiśya, who is a śūdra. It is accepted that everyone is a śūdra because there is no reformation. So according to Pāñcarātriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaiṣṇava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Saṁskārād bhaved dvijaḥ. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathād bhaved vipraḥ. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brāhmaṇa. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Viṣṇu, then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. That is perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam (SB 6.3.19). Sākṣād, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this platform, how to love God. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous.
Prabhupāda: It requires some professional man. Laymen cannot go with the film.
Hari-śauri: It needs a trained speaker.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Hari-śauri: Needs someone who's trained to speak nicely.
Prabhupāda: Anyone can do. We can do also.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: But it may not come out so nice.
Prabhupāda: But it may not be perfect. (break)
Ṛṣi Kumāra: Prabhupāda, is it all right if I remain a sannyāsī?
Prabhupāda: Stay for some time. You'll get sannyāsa. Stay for some time.
Ṛṣi Kumāra: I don't want to get married. It's just being kicked by māyā. I can see that.
Prabhupāda: At least you have got already experience. (laughs) Don't be misled. Stay for sometimes. Will be give you sannyāsa. And now Mr. Punja, has he written any letter?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Mr. Punjasai? He wrote a letter recently. He mentioned the business about the books, that Guru-kṛpā said he was supposed to some give books from Australia, and he wasn't getting them.
Prabhupāda: So you can write him—note down—that "We are managing our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement by GBC. We have got about twenty GBC's for looking after the whole world affair, and above the GBC, I am there, and under the GBC's there are presidents, treasurers, secretaries in each and every center. So the president is responsible to the GBC. GBC is responsible to me. In this way we are managing. But why you are proposing a separate trustee for Fiji? We have no separate trustee till now, but if for security, if it is required, you can adopt it. So this is our management going on. Now, if you have got some new idea, so please explain to me how you want to manage. But I think Fiji temple cannot be managed in a separate idea. But still, I shall entertain if you have got some idea to manage. The deed should be given to the founder-ācārya, in the name of founder-ācārya like 'A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Founder-Ācārya International Society.' "
Prabhupāda: Gurukula school, yes.
Janice Johnson: Why was that done?
Prabhupāda: Why? Gurukula school? We are training children from the very beginning of life to understand spiritual importance of life.
Hari-śauri: She's wondering why we moved from Texas.
Prabhupāda: We have... No, we have got there.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We have, have got our school there. We have about seven or eight schools now all throughout America. We've actually expanded.
Janice Johnson: But wasn't that school moved to India?
Prabhupāda: No, it is maintained, not in large scale, but in small scale.
Prabhupāda: He was chanting and driving. Very good boy.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cyavana has been here also.
Prabhupāda: Just train him, he is good boy. He has fallen down, just take care of him.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, actually the work here needs, you'll see, this building, it actually requires four or five big leaders.
Prabhupāda: One may fall down, but you have to take care.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's much better now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he'll do, he's good worker, if you can train him, he's a good worker. He can do very nice. He has fallen in māyā, just take care of him, what can be done? He's good worker, very good worker. He can do intelligent service.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very intelligent, very high-class, nice devotee.
Prabhupāda: He knows accounting. There was no guide, he became alone...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's exactly what he said.
Prabhupāda: ...and became spoiled.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two hours. (break)
Prabhupāda: Lord Rāma's, what is this?
Hari-śauri: There's shop there with a sign of Lord Rāma's.
Rāmeśvara: Train station? Grand Central?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Grand Central Station.
Ādi-keśava: You want to go on the upper level and around?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...underneath there is subway.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, yes.
Prabhupāda: About hundred yards below.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, quite far below. Beautiful church here, St. Bartholomew's Church. This is the Seagram's Building. Yes, this is Dhṛṣṭadyumna's father's building. The whole building, the Seagram's building.
Rāmeśvara: It's a liquor company.
Prabhupāda: Liquor?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His father is the president of the biggest liquor manufacturer in the whole world.
Prabhupāda: And father, and son is no liquor.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Rādhāvallabha: They have here proof that his mantra is no different than any ordinary sound. It says "In a Stanford Research Institute experiment, a group of TM trainees was compared to a control group who had been taught a fake mantra that they believed would be effective. In both groups some subjects were able to bring unpleasant psychosomatic symptoms under control. Three of these dropped out of the TM training group. Their symptoms returned. Two dropped out of the control group; their symptoms came back too. Evidence like that suggests that whatever works in the TM system, it does not depend upon the mystical mantra."
Prabhupāda: Let their men come and talk with our men in a public meeting. Then people will understand what is the difference.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have a catalog, Transcendental Meditation University, it's very well done, nice colors and anything, first class. They spend a lot of money and a lot of thoughts how to bring, how to attract the students.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says their University's just closed down.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, the one at Iowa?
Hari-śauri: No, the one in Majorca, in Spain.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is the headquarters, Iowa, the main University. We saw the catalog. It contains everything, all sciences.
Hari-śauri: This article explains that when he first appeared in public, he presented himself as a Hindu representative of Śaṅkarācārya's cult, but then later on he concocted this Transcendental Meditation, and then he presented it as a science so that he could get government grants to teach it in schools and things like this.
Rādhāvallabha: They have another guru here, Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh.
Prabhupāda: He has also come?
Rādhāvallabha: Yes.
Interviewer: And so that group of eighteen secretaries will choose another leader?
Prabhupāda: I am training each one of them as leader so that they can spread extensively. That is my idea.
Interviewer: So, in other words, you started this whole movement here in the United States ten years ago. Would you say that the United States had the most active, financially, group of followers.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Rāmeśvara: She wants to know, seeing you chose the United States to begin this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement ten years ago, now do you find that in the United States there is the most active membership financially speaking. In terms of contributing to this movement, supporting the movement, is the best field America?
Prabhupāda: No, without finance we can go on.
Rāmeśvara: Without finance we can go on.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, anyone, anyone.
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda's point in the beginning was whether they will accept it or not. But once they accept it, once they get trained, then they will automatically be advanced. His point in the beginning was whether they'll accept it or not. That requires intelligence.
Bali-mardana: He has to undergo a type of conditioning.
Rāmeśvara: Or training.
Lady Guest: I think he was defining his definition of intelligence in the spiritual realm as opposed to material intelligence.
Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda said intelligence means you accept the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or you accept to be trained to be spiritually advanced.
Lady Guest: It's like an hypothesis.
Interviewer: Don't you find the whole Kṛṣṇa movement more successful in an age and era when there is such laxity of moral standards and spiritual leadership and direction?
Prabhupāda: No, at any stage of life, if one accepts the principles of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he can make advance.
Rāmeśvara: She asked, "Is it more favorable for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness if there is some material problems, social problems? If there is a lack of God consciousness, then people become frustrated. Is that a more favorable situation for Kṛṣṇa consciousness to take root?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, if we arrange social, political and everything favorable for spiritual understanding, then it becomes easier.
Prabhupāda: And following the regulative principles.
Rāmeśvara: And very carefully following the training system that Prabhupāda has given us for becoming advanced spiritually. That involves what to eat, what not to eat, and how to avoid taking drugs, intoxicants. There are certain principles.
Bali-mardana: In other words, Prabhupāda is creating a class of purified persons, so they are located throughout the world, and if other persons come to them, then they become purified. Just like we have come to Prabhupāda and we have become purified, similarly his disciples are empowered to purify others because they have become pure. In that way it increases geometrically.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: It's an educational process. Someone coming from the street you can't expect that he's given a degree in chemistry. He has to be trained up. So the educational process goes on and on. It expands naturally.
Bali-mardana: Just like in the beginning Prabhupāda was teaching Bhagavad-gītā personally to his disciples. But now in each one of his over a hundred temples throughout the world, his instructions are being taught. So he's expanded himself through his books and his temples. So anyone who enters into them, they are associating with him and becoming purified. So then more temples, more people come and become purified.
Interviewer: Are you prepared to die?
Prabhupāda: What is this question?
Bali-mardana: Are you prepared to die?
Prabhupāda: You are not prepared? Why don't you answer?
Interviewer: Pardon me?
Prabhupāda: You are not prepared to die?
Interviewer: I haven't thought about it too much.
Prabhupāda: Why you are asking me, "Why"? Because you are afraid. You are not prepared to die.
Prabhupāda: That you can describe, the whole day's program.
Interviewer: What's the purpose of that rising? What's the purpose of that, the rising at 4:30, the chanting and study?
Prabhupāda: It means to be fixed up in (indistinct) spiritual life. Just like in military there is training. You must have to do at this time this thing, this time, this time... So any training means regulated life.
Interviewer: What is the most important part of it?
Prabhupāda: The most important part is how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Interviewer: Yes, what's the most important practice.
Prabhupāda: Practice, yes. This is practice.
Bali-mardana: Which devotional practice...?
Rāmeśvara: He is asking whether one technique is more important than another.
Prabhupāda: Everything is important. Everything is important. You cannot say, "This is most important; this is less important." Everything is important.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I want to do that. Because there's an open balcony right on the street side, enclose it with glass, it would be very popular. After going to see the doll exhibits people can sit there comfortably take, you know, rest on the bench. And it can be seen from outside so it will be indirectly an advertisement. You'll see that there are people sitting there. (break)
Rāmeśvara: ...artists that work on your books, they have to train many devotees to paint because one day in all the government buildings there will be paintings of Kṛṣṇa. Just like now they have all these paintings of so-called...
Prabhupāda: If they are selling, you can sell these pictures.
Rāmeśvara: I think they will sell. (break) ...popular is that at colleges they like to have art shows come where they display the paintings and then they move on to another college. So we can do that with some of our art paintings also. They will give us one hall just to hang the paintings for some time.
Prabhupāda: So many trees have come. (break) ...from stone there is grass.
Rāmeśvara: They have no explanation for this. No one ever asks these questions, Śrīla Prabhupāda, why the grass is coming out of stone.
Prabhupāda: No. Our point is why even in moon planet there is stone only, and...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No living entities.
Prabhupāda: ...no living entities?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No life.
Interviewer: Prabhu, the... Can you tell us a little bit about the plans you have for your project in India?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I wanted to start this movement from India. I even requested Mahatma Gandhi, that "Mahatmaji, you have got some respect all over the world, and you are known as a great student of Bhagavad-gītā. Now you have got your sva-rājya, the Britishers have gone away. Let us preach Bhagavad-gītā." But I don't think I got any reply from him. Of course he was very busy man. My letter might have reached him or not reached him. The secretaries might have rejected. I think received from secretary, like that. But then after few days he was killed. So I was trying for this purpose in India. I approached many friends, that "You have got four sons. Give me one son so that I can train him how to become a real preacher of Bhagavad-gītā, how one can understand." Because Bhagavad-gītā is being misinterpreted. So I wanted to preach it as it is. That was my mission. So practically nobody joined me. Then I decided to come here. And these boys cooperated. So I have got great desire to... Because India is by nature Kṛṣṇa conscious, but our modern leaders keeping them suppressed. That is the difficulty. There are so many other difficulties, and leaders are misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā. To tell you frankly, there are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gītā by Dr. Radhakrishna, by Gandhi, by Tilak, by Aurobindo, or many others. But nobody has said that "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa." Do you admit or not? Has anybody said that, "Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. You are searching after God. Here is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa. Worship Him"? Nobody has stated. Am I right or not?
Bali-mardana: Jaipur.
Prabhupāda: Jaipur, yes.
Bali-mardana: We should bring some to Māyāpur and live there...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bali-mardana: ...and train others.
Prabhupāda: (break) Just like New Vrindaban they have a dozen brahmacārīs.
Kīrtanānanda: They have an expert teacher, Gopīnātha.
Prabhupāda: Also Los Angeles. (break) ...and big, big city like Calcutta, Bombay, there are many, many more pigeons. Why they are so small?
Kīrtanānanda: They kill them.
Prabhupāda: Kill.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They kill them?
Devotee: They poison them.
Kīrtanānanda: They put poison feed out.
Prabhupāda: Ah, killing experts.
Prabhupāda: Don't take it as a sectarian religious system. It is very scientific understanding for spiritual life.
Harikeśa: But, ah, "Beware of the undefeatable reasoning and logic of the Hare Kṛṣṇas, who will steal away your children." (laughs) Because we argue so nicely because Śrīla Prabhupāda has trained us up very perfectly, because he also is the perfect teacher of this. Therefore the students can learn that way. So when we argue people become afraid, because it makes so much sense.
Prabhupāda: They accuse me, "kidnapper of children." But what is my kidnapping method? The young men, they understand philosophy. What I can do, kidnap them? I have no money, I have no strength.
Mike Robinson: But it exists purely as a charity, isn't that correct?
Hari-śauri: Yes, purely nonprofit.
Mike Robinson: Which must make it difficult sometimes, doesn't it?
Harikeśa: No, it's done out of love. So it is not at all difficult.
Mike Robinson: I see.
Jayatīrtha: No one requires any payment. The only payment is the fulfillment that they are experiencing.
Mike Robinson: But how about the electricity board and people like that? I mean, where do you get the money?
Jayatīrtha: Kṛṣṇa gives us the money.
Prabhupāda: Yes, we have no scarcity of money. We are selling our books daily, sixty thousand dollars' worth. So we have got sufficient income to maintain the whole institute.
Harikeśa: It's like taming wild animals. The perfect animal trainer. (laughing)
Prabhupāda: He said that breaking the bricks is the business. I said the sooner you give up this, then you are happy. Karmīs, the karmīs want this, breaking the bricks. They think this is civilization. Brick, more brick, and bring more bricks and break it. That is civilization.
Hari-śauri: And then when we tell them that this is not your business, they ask us, "Why aren't you breaking bricks?"
Prabhupāda: You are punished. You are being punished in this way. Actually, I saw in New York, big, big building, they are breaking, again, another skyscraper. "No, I have business. Breaking the bricks," that's all. They think this is very good business. Once constructed, again break it. As child, children, they make a sand house and break it again. This is the occupation.
Prabhupāda: So Gurukula means, find out that chapter, brahmacārī gurukule.
Hari-śauri: Seven, Two.
Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Kṛṣṇa. Guru means Kṛṣṇa; Kṛṣṇa means guru. Not Māyāvāda, but guru means one who follows Kṛṣṇa, he is guru. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ **. So guru is directly God, sākṣād-hari. Sākṣād means directly. So sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, in every śāstra it is said the guru is one, Kṛṣṇa. So, it is stated in the śāstra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-śāstrair, uktas. You understand little Sanskrit?
Jyotirmāyī: Some verses from Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhiḥ, "by great personalities." Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair uktas **, tathā, and "accordingly," tathā means "accordingly," bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva... It does not mean Māyāvādī, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God, servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Kṛṣṇa says personally, na ca tasmān manuṣyeṣu kaścin me priya-kṛttamaḥ: (BG 18.69) nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidā... (Bg 18.68). "Who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gītā among My devotees." So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Māyāvādī philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, therefore he's as good as God. This is bhakti. Not the Māyāvādī philosophy that guru has become God. Guru as God, not become.
Prabhupāda: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the śāstra. The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five-, six-years-old.
Jyotirmāyī: Then they can take responsibility themselves.
Prabhupāda: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ others to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahāprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old he could argue with Keśava Kāśmīrī, because He was practiced. In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student.
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacārīnis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacārīs.
Prabhupāda: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.
Jyotirmāyī: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...
Prabhupāda: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Just like Ekādaśī day. Ekādaśī day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting. But they'll "No, no." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogues, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nations. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? We can give a very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society.
Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.
Hari-śauri: Still, we still met a lot of people in India who are actually following the regulative principles just as a matter of social training. But they're becoming very few now.
Prabhupāda: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brāhmaṇa class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brāhmaṇa would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered śūdra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brāhmaṇa, then she is called brāhmaṇī, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as śūdra. So therefore a strict brāhmaṇa does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. Still there are in U.P. The wife will arrange for cooking, and he'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis. Then he will eat, and whatever remains, that is there, that will be taken by her. But he will not take foodstuff cooked by his even wife. And if there are several brāhmaṇas, so each one of them will cook his own food. In Calcutta, mostly the rich men they used to keep the collector's darwans, they are called darwans. Means guard, policemen, guard. They're all, very big, big brāhmaṇa family, they used to take, accept the job. But each of them, even in police, I have seen, they are cooking separately. They take bath thrice, cook their own food, very strictly. The government had to give them a big hall for cooking. So, it will not take much space, say, little space. One small oven and demarcated: "This, you see, is mine, and then I, you get, this is yours, this is yours." So within that space they'll sit down and cook dāl, cāpāṭis, rice, one vegetable, and cook, and immediately all the utensils will be cleansed and washed, and the space washed and kept. You'd like to eat, they cook so nicely, although simple. And I have got practical experience, if you cook your own food, whatever it may be, it is healthy.
Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. The difficulty is the modern society, the leaders, they do not know the aim of life. They are blindly doing everything like animals. Their philosophy is like the animals. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, that's all. This is the philosophy of the animals. And human philosophy is to understand first of all what I am. I am this body or something else? That is human life. But nobody questions this, there is no institution to teach this science, therefore the whole human society is misguided. Just like if I want to train my boy to become a medical man, then I teach him biology, botany, similar... So if... Because I know I shall make my boy a medical man. Similarly, we should know what is the aim of human life. Then we have to construct the social political, everything, favorable to that end. But they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the whole mistake. I think that in Bible there is a story, prodigal son? So we are prodigal son. We are all sons of God, now we have become prodigal sons. What is the meaning of prodigal? "Without any responsibility," is it not? Do whatever you like.
Yogeśvara: And he thinks that seeing the decline of religion in the West he says it is very important that we are pushing on this mission as we are doing.
Bhūgarbha: He doesn't think he'll be able to follow the life of the Vaiṣṇavas, because our life is too difficult.
Prabhupāda: That attitude will help him. That humbleness, that "I cannot follow," that will help.
Bhūgarbha: He says he has a tendency more of a jñānī, and his training has been according to Śaṅkarite and also Buddhist lines. But still he appreciates very much bhakti, and he is very happy to meet the devotees, and at the same time he's very depressed to meet all these intellectuals who know so many things but cannot understand anything.
Prabhupāda: Without becoming jñānī, nobody can become bhakta. Without knowledge, if one has become bhakta, he's sentimentalist. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, find out this verse. Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54).
Prabhupāda: Understanding, guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. You try to understand God, and He'll explain what He is. You try to understand.
Ali: But I have been trained through intellect, trying to discern things the way that intellect functions. And I don't have spiritual training.
Prabhupāda: That training is given here, spiritual training.
Ali: And therefore, how am I to understand?
Prabhupāda: To understand, you have to take the training, spiritual training. You have to understand the words which God wants to let you know about Him. These are spiritual training. Spiritual training means first of all you must have little faith that "I shall be intimately related with God." Unless you have got this faith, there is no question of spiritual training. If you simply remain satisfied, "God is great, let Him remain at His home, let me remain at my home," that is not love. You must be eager to know God more and more intimately. Then the next stage is how to know about God unless you associate with persons who are simply busy in God's business. They have no other business. Just like we are training people, they are simply meant for God's business. They have no other business. How people will understand about God, how they will be benefited, they are simply planning in so many ways. So we have to associate with such persons who are convinced about God and trying to spread His knowledge throughout the world. You have to mix with, associate with them. First of all, you must have faith that, "In this life I shall understand thoroughly about God." Then associate with persons who are busy with God's business. Then you act as they are acting. Then your misconception of material life will be finished. Then you'll have attachment. Then you'll have taste. In this way you'll develop love of God.
Prabhupāda: Pleasure... So that is child. The child also feels pleasure with something. But it is the duty of the parent to train him to the right point of view. The child takes pleasure playing the whole day. But the father does not allow him. If you leave, let the child seeks his own pleasure, then you are spoiling him. Then there is no need of becoming your father, guardian, let him be spoiled by his whimsical pleasure. There is no need of training, schooling, colleges. There is no need. In my childhood I was not willing to go to the schools. My mother forced, by force she used to... My father was lenient and my mother kept a special man, yamadhara(?), that, "Your duty is to take him by force to the school." Yes. My father, my mother would complain that "Your boy did not go to school." "Oh, he did not go to school?" And I was sure he was very affectionate. "Why?" "No, I shall go tomorrow." Then father, "All right, he will go tomorrow, that's all right." But that tomorrow will never come. This is my practical. My mother forced me. So I thought, "It is pleasure. Why shall I go to school? Let me play whole day." But it is the duty of the guardian to see that this is not pleasure, this is spoiling. A child may think something pleasure, but the guardian should not think that this is pleasure. This is spoiling him. Otherwise why the guardians are required? Why government is needed, why king is needed, why father is needed, why guru is needed? Just to guide. Therefore whatever you think whimsically it is pleasure, the guru, the father, the king, the government, they should guide—"No, it is not pleasure, it is ruining. You should take like this." If the guru and father and the government, they are themselves rascals and fools, how they will guide? And that is the position. General public, they require guidance, but the guides themselves are rascals and fools, cheaters, bluffers. Therefore the condition, social condition... (passerby says something) He said in English?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: No.
Dayānanda: But I mean rebelliousness. Everyone should...
Prabhupāda: So whatever you like, you can do. Kṛṣṇa says that you have got intelligence. "You consider, I have spoken to you. Now you use your intelligence and do whatever you like." Kṛṣṇa does not deny your intelligence. There is no meaning. You have got your intelligence. That is your... Training, you take Kṛṣṇa's training. If you don't take, then you remain in your own training. Kṛṣṇa is training you, He says sarva-dharmān parityajya mām (BG 18.66), but if you don't take His training, then you remain in your own training. Who objects? Remain a rascal. Who objects? Continue to become a rascal. What can be done? That yathecchasi tathā kuru is already said. You use your intelligence. If you prefer to remain rascal, you remain. Kṛṣṇa does not say that "Don't use your intelligence." What does He say? But if you are actually intelligent, then you'll think that, "Who can be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa? Let me take His advice." That is real intelligence. Why shall I use my tiny intelligence? That is real intelligence.
Prabhupāda: But why the Indians, they are not like the Americans? You find in India still millions of people will go to the Kumbhamelā with torn cloth. They are not like Americans, riches. Why they take? Indian is well-known poverty-stricken. So why almost ninety-nine percent people, they are after Kṛṣṇa consciousness naturally? Still they'll go, when there is Kumbhamelā, so many saintly persons are coming. They will come by lakhs. Have you seen it? You have seen Kumbhamelā? You have seen? That is the proof. Not only Kumbhamelā. In Vṛndāvana, just like in our temple, recently it was jam-packed. Why they are coming to Vṛndāvana? Mostly they are coming from villages. Especially during this time at least twenty thousand, fifty thousand men are coming, daily. Still. We held Hare Kṛṣṇa festivals in Calcutta, Bombay, Madras. As soon as it is advertised, you'll find fifteen thousand, twenty thousand men come. And if you hold for weeks, for weeks they will come. You have seen? They are not like Americans, rich. They are all poverty-stricken. To the general eyes they are poverty-stricken. Kumbhamelā you'll see, Hardwar, in Vṛndāvana. Or even in big, big cities like Calcutta, Bombay, such festivals are held, people will come by thousands. It is training, culture. And this boy is taking three times bath, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. It is training and culture. And if he is kept in this culture, in future he'll be great saintly person. Then he'll do everything automatically. He will deliver others. It is training.
Prabhupāda: That good person is very, very rare. I... (break) ...education point of view.
Guest: Yes sir.
Prabhupāda: Unless one is put into practice, it is not possible. That is Vedic culture. From the beginning of life students were sent to gurukula for practicing how to become brahmacārī. That training (indistinct). Then they are trained as gṛhastha, then vānaprastha, and ultimately sannyāsa, completely renounced. Immediately, a person cannot be renounced, therefore gradually, step by step. So unless there is proper training... Now just like we are selling millions copies of these books, they are reading, and how many of them coming forward? So it requires training. Training is essential to make them Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Guest (5): I would rather request that you direct your efforts... (break)
Prabhupāda: ...guru.
Guest (5): Yes, sir.
Prabhupāda: If one goes in the village without any dress, without any, if he plays the part of Kṛṣṇa's and somebody plays the part of Rādhārāṇī, thousands of people will come. There is no need of film. Yatra-party.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...that to know God there is no necessity of education.
Indian man: No, he has got nothing. He cannot tell any children ask "What is this?" He will not be able to tell because he's not reading anything.
Prabhupāda: So you don't train, how they will learn?
Indian man: No, he himself is not trained, so he cannot give any answer to the children. So I told him, "At least you get their ISKCON books. You can read now before the children can read." So he immediately signed up. He immediately paid 2222 rupees by check and he agreed "I'll read Bhagavad-gītā and everything."
Prabhupāda: We don't require much money also. We require men first. Money will come. Money is coming. I started this business forty...
Indian man: Forty rupees.
Prabhupāda: So there is no scarcity of money. Now our daily collection is six lakhs of rupees throughout the whole world.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. We must have Kṛṣṇa, that's a fact. What is the next proposal? We have got experience. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also introduced this dramatic play, but the play was performed by a great devotee. So unless devotees are trained, this play will not be effective.
Indian man (3): Yes, I have discussed that also with Mr. Saurabha.
Prabhupāda: (break)... The devotees who can spare time. First of all, all the devotees, they are also in the training, and if they have to learn another training, it may be very difficult.
Indian man (3): Sir, you would perhaps agree that... (break)
Prabhupāda: That we are doing. Just like in New York we have got stage. So we are playing something from Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Bhāgavata occasionally.
Indian man (1): I saw in New York one month back Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. In the temple I saw the Rāmāyaṇa-gītā. It was really very exciting. My two sons are there in New York, so I took them to the temple. So Your Divine Grace was at that time perhaps busy or something, that I couldn't have the darśana.
Prabhupāda: When I was there you were also there?
Prabhupāda: The life of Kṛṣṇa is known almost everyone. So...
Indian man (3): Yes. And also, sir, there are...
Prabhupāda: What benefit they will get?
Indian man (3): ...numerous pictures also. What we have to educate the people...
Prabhupāda: (break) By practice. We are training them to practice how to become devotees. By superficial seeing the activities of Kṛṣṇa, this is not... One has to practice. Just like we are going to start gurukula. Gurukula means practice. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dāntaḥ (SB 7.12.1). How to become self-controlled, dānta. That is the... So our mission is to awaken the original consciousness, and that can be done by practice. Without practice, it is not possible. It is not by seeing some picture one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible.
Indian man (3): But sir, do we not convey to a larger people...
Prabhupāda: That is being done through books.
Prabhupāda: It is not our, it is human society's.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) We allowed everyone to be here unawares. If public corporation, trading company, becomes the ruler of this country, I don't understand how it could be.
Prabhupāda: Because we have no, that cātur-varṇa system. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). You have given up Kṛṣṇa's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no kṣatriya.
Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise-indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is śūdra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," śūdra will be on the power. So they can...
Dr. Patel: In Kali-yuga, sir, the śūdras will rule according to the...
Prabhupāda: Everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Who is going to become brāhmaṇa? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brāhmaṇa." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brāhmaṇa he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class.
Jayapatākā: But who that person is right now to work, that we have to train up some of our men. Because right now...
Prabhupāda: He can do, Svarūpa. He can take training, and he can do. And then, gradually, others will join.
Jayapatākā: I think all the children, they could become brahmacārīs. If the parents would be agreeable, they could become brahmacārīs and attend morning some class, then go to school. In this way the whole village could be made Kṛṣṇa conscious at least by chanting and...
Prabhupāda: Chanting is the main thing. Chanting and distributing prasādam.
Jayapatākā: If we get prasādam, then... I think that they all contribute some grain. They are very poor agricultural people, but there's no theft there. I asked. There's one man who has three acres. Three bighās of land he's giving. So they just grow their rice there and...
Prabhupāda: You can ask that instead of making paraṭā, a light khicuḍi in the morning. That is...
Hari-śauri: Instead of that sabji and everything.
Prabhupāda: No, sabji can make.
Prabhupāda: You can bring so many men and keep everyone in charge of such places, and it will develop. Money, there is no scarcity. But the difficulty is as soon as we establish, the immigration, "You go away." This is... What is this? You say the MLA and this Tarun Kanti." This is our difficulty. Otherwise there is no difficulty. We can take all the charge and develop them very nicely." So if one man is kept in charge, and after few months he's advised, "Go away," then all his training goes to hell and we have to spend another ten thousand rupees. This is the difficulty. What... We are not... Not a single case there is that we have taken any part in politics. So give us some facility. We can take charge of everything. Tell them that actually that is fact, that there is no scarcity of money. We can bring money from America and develop. There is no difficulty at all. The difficulty is the immigration department. You can say that "Prabhupāda has put this philosophy, andha..." What is that? Paṅgu. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. Blind and... Depends on this... Blind and... I think you have already know. Blind man, lame man. One man is blind, another man is lame. Both of them are useless. But when they combine, the blind man takes the lame man on his shoulder, and the lame man gives direction to the blind man, "Go this way. Go this way." So he walks. So both of them are benefited. So America has got money but blind. And India has got culture but lame. So let us combine.
Prabhupāda: Paṇḍitjī.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He and Nitāi are both considered the paṇḍitjīs.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are paṇḍita.
Gargamuni: He is training his son also.
Prabhupāda: Yes, his son will be great paṇḍita. Both of them are devotees, husband and wife. Therefore nice son is born. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. Yoni is the mother. Bījam is the father. Yathā bījaṁ yathā yoni. So I'll not send it to Bombay.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Okay. Good. It's better to...
Prabhupāda: My father used to carry śālagrāma-śilā if he was going out in the...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the neck?
Prabhupāda: His Guru Mahārāja advised him.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's auspicious.
Prabhupāda: No, it is the safest place. In a linen handkerchief, bound up. Yes. So it is safe always, kaṇṭha. My father used to carry. Wherever he would stay, gaṅga-jala, tulasī, decoration. Say, half an hour business. My father was a great devotee. Yes.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: You dedicated the Kṛṣṇa book to him.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because he was a pure Vaiṣṇava. And he wanted me to become like this. He was praying Rādhārāṇī. He was praying to Rādhārāṇī. And any saintly person would come, he would simply say, "Give blessings to my son that he may become a Rādhārāṇī's servant." That was my father's prayer. He never prayed that "My son may become very rich man." He never prayed like that. Actually, his ardent desire that his son may become a Vaiṣṇava. And my Guru Mahārāja's training has put me this position. That I have admitted. Later on. What is that word I have given? Hmm? Find out.
Gargamuni: "The eternal father?"
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "Which was later on solidified..."
Prabhupāda: Ahh!
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: "...by my eternal father."
Prabhupāda: "The ideas given by my father were solidified by..."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's what you said.
Prabhupāda: Hailstorm. And they became entrapped in the jungle whole night. And in the morning guru with other disciples came to search out them. And this Sudāmā Vipra and Kṛṣṇa was stranded, and they were found out, then taken back. So even Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He served the guru as menial. The guru's wife asked Him, "Bring some fuel from the jungle," and they went immediately. This is gurukula. No, I mean to say, prestigious position. "Guru has said—has to be done." This training. Then?
Maṇihāra: There's just a few more sentences. "The Society has indeed set for itself a noble and laudable ideal, producing men and women of high character, sincerity, and God consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Send this rascal.
Gargamuni: Yes, this shall be sent. And also to Om Mehta.
Prabhupāda: You send. He knows you, Gargamuni. Yes. Say you have mentioned several times my name, so for your benefit, and to open your eyes, I am sending you one article. Please read what ISKCON is doing. Simply write this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varṇāśramācāra-vatā. The varṇa and āśrama I've already explained. Just like for maintenance of the whole body there are different parts: the brain, the arm, the belly, and the leg. Similarly, varṇāśrama means the head—brāhmaṇa; the arms—kṣatriya; the belly—vaiśya; and the leg—śūdra. So by nature these divisions are there. Varṇa, four varṇas and four āśramas. Four varṇas means social divisions, and four āśrama, spiritual division. So apart from spiritual division, brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, and sannyāsa, the social division must be observed. The brain must be there. Brāhmaṇa. Everything must be there. Not only the brain. The arms also required—military department or kṣatriya department. Yuddhe cāpy apalayanam(?). The kṣatriyas are so brave, they don't go away from fighting field, battlefield. Just like Arjuna was trying to become nonviolent. Immediately Kṛṣṇa chastised him, kutas tvā kaśmalam idaṁ viṣame samupasthitam anārya-juṣṭam akīrti-karam. So everything is required. It is not that everyone should become brāhmaṇa. Neither it is possible that everyone should be able to become brāhmaṇa. It is not so easy thing. But a class of brāhmaṇa must be maintained. A class of brāhmaṇa must be there as ideal to consult with them. Similarly, a class of kṣatriya must be there, a class of vaiśya must be there. This is called varṇāśrama. For the peaceful execution of material life these things are required, division. Just like in your government you have got some different ministerial department. You have introduced, this minister is for this department, this minister... Similarly, the brain department must be there. Without brain, even... Suppose a madman, he has got his hands and legs, but it is useless because the brain is lost. So brain must be there. So this varṇāśrama, revival of varṇāśrama is required. A class of men, brāhmaṇa—sattva śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). As there are different educational system, there must be an educational institute where these things are taught: how to become truthful, how to become self-controlled, how to become full in knowledge, how to become full believer in the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Āstikyam. In this way, as there is necessity of engineer, as there is necessity of medical man, as there is necessity of so many other departmental chiefs, similarly, a department of brāhmaṇa, a department of kṣatriya—that education must be given. But in this age, because nobody is interested, so everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Everyone, all over the world, they are being educated to seek after some good service. Paricarya: he must have a good master; then his education will be... He cannot act independently. So therefore in the śāstra it is said that everyone is anxious to get a good job, therefore, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ, in this age almost everyone is śūdra. So if śūdras are there only, if there is no brāhmaṇa, no kṣatriya, no vaiśyas, that society will not prosper very much. If we accept the injunction of the śāstra, yaḥ śāstra-vidhim utsṛjya vartate kāma (BG 16.23). So this brāhmaṇa, or kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is not by birth. It is by qualification. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Guṇa. One must acquire the quality of brāhmaṇa and he must act as a brāhmaṇa. Then he is brāhmaṇa. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ. Even in śūdra family, if one is born śūdra, but he has attained the quality of a brāhmaṇa, he must be accepted as brāhmaṇa. That is the śāstra injunction.
Yad anyatra. If the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in a person who is born in a śūdra family, he should be accepted as brāhmaṇa. Similarly, if the quality of brāhmaṇa is found in śūdra or the śūdra quality found in brāhmaṇa, I mean to say birth, by caste, as it is going on now, so Nārada Muni has said... This is the statement of Nārada Muni, the greatest authority. Yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet (SB 7.11.35). So birth is not the final thing. If one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or kṣatriya family, he has got the facility to become quickly a brāhmaṇa; but if he has no quality, if he does not practice, then he is not to be accepted as brāhmaṇa. You may be a son of a high-court judge, but unless you have got the quality of high-court judge, it is not that because you are born of high-court judge you become a high-court judge. That is not, that is not the quality. The quality is... So therefore I say that there must be educational institution for training brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya especially. And vaiśyas, they do not require any academical area. Kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (Bg 18.44). They can learn simply by associating with another vaiśya. But brāhmaṇa, especially require education, Vedic literature. Paṭhana-pāṭhana-yajana-yājana-dāna-pratigrahaḥ. Kṣatriya also requires education. Others, they may not require education. Practical training. These things should be introduced. Then human society will be perfect. Not by birth, but by quality, by education, by training. But that is possible. So your answer...
Indian (1): No, the institution for training this Swamiji? Your proposition?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. I have got so many ideas.
Prabhupāda: But kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. The Vedas are meant for the brāhmaṇas. So there is no brāhmaṇa practically. Neither there is training of brāhmaṇas. Brāhmaṇa means he must speak truth. Satyā śama dama titik—and if you ask nowadays anybody that "You don't speak lie, you speak truth," he will laugh, that "What a rascal this is. By speaking truth one can live nowadays?" he will say. The first business is satyam. And if you ask him, "You speak truth," he will laugh. So where is brāhmaṇa? A brāhmaṇa is so simple that if you ask him about his secrecy, he'll tell you, "Yes, this is..." Satyam. Just like Jābāli? Upaniṣad, he was asked, he went to Gautama Muni. Satyaka, yes, for initiation. Gautama Muni asked him, "Who is your father?" He said, "I do not know." "Go to your mother." He went to the mother. Mother said, "Oh, my dear son, I do not know." He was a prostitute's son. So he came to Gautama Muni and said, "Sir, my mother does not know, I do not know." So he said, "You are a brāhmaṇa. Because you don't keep any secrecy you are brāhmaṇa. I'll initiate." So it is not the birth, but the quality-truthful. But these qualities will come when you make him a devotee. So this process should be taken, how to make him a devotee. And the easiest process of making devotee is let them come to the temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and take prasāda. Then gradually they'll become... I began this movement on this. Very simple. And they have come. I never asked them to study Vedas in the beginning. What they'll read Veda? What do they know? But this process has become successful. So if you take this process it will be very quickly successful. And then literature. I never gave them literature. I have got about eighty books. Not that in the beginning I asked them, "Come here and read books." No. "Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasāda." Now they are interested in reading books, in publishing them, in selling them and everything. They are doing everything. So if you take the authorized program it will be successful. Otherwise, it will not be successful.
Prabhupāda: I am always at your service.
Commissioner: Somehow, the coincides, our program, we have taken a small scale. Every temple has been asked to have this bhajana, hari-kathā, then this pūjā...
Prabhupāda: There must be some competent man to induce. Everything will be planned.
Commissioner: Therefore our training has to be started perhaps here. Some of those people who could go. These are all the ideas of course. If you could give an impetus, that's exactly what I wanted to... Take advice from you. Now if a center is established. What we lack very badly are those people who can competently take up this work in the whole state. The temples are there, the funds are there, organization is there. Men who are, as you say, the real brāhmaṇa, who could go and preach this, we are lacking. We are lacking. And he has to be trained. And the right training you are giving. Anywhere I see your men are...
Prabhupāda: So we can give men.
Commissioner: Yes. And a training institute has to be started. Very badly we need it. My department also. Having any number of people. It is suffering because we don't have the proper people with that objective to govern...
Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost.
Prabhupāda: Because the culture is lost. Culture is lost.
Commissioner: Because we take the local people as trust board members. We appoint officers.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I said if you keep them dogs, what is the use of United Nations? You cannot make the dogs united. That is not possible.
Commissioner: Yes. Therefore recently in Tirupati we have been thinking of starting a training institute along with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
Prabhupāda: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have no idea.
Commissioner: They have no idea. Ramakrishna Mission we asked.
Prabhupāda: They have no idea.
Commissioner: They don't have people. They said, "We don't have men even for our own missions."
Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you... We do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kanayalal Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra. So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge, vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say, "Yes, I am the only man" at the present moment. You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful.
Commissioner: They don't have people. They said, "We don't have men even for our own missions."
Prabhupāda: No. How long they can go on with false pretense? And these people, they have no idea what is spiritual life. It is a profession for collecting money. So if you... We do not like to criticize. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Kanayalal Munshi, he did not believe there is life after death or he did not believe there is Kṛṣṇa, fact. This is the founder. So what is their knowledge? And Vivekananda made Nārāyaṇa daridra. So this is their manufacturing ideas. They have no sound knowledge, vacant. They are misled themselves, and they will mislead others. This is going on. But if you say that, "You are the only man?" I can say, "Yes, I am the only man" at the present moment. You believe or not believe. And why? Because I am following Kṛṣṇa's instructions. That's all. I do not touch anything. That is our process. What Kṛṣṇa has said, we say, that's all. Therefore there is little success. I don't manufacture. I have no extraordinary power or I cannot show magic or jugglery of words. But I do sincerely to present what Kṛṣṇa has said. So if you do that, you'll be successful. If you do not do that, you'll never be successful. If you manufacture idea... We must know that we are defective. Our manufacturing of idea all defective. We must take standard instructions from Kṛṣṇa. Then everything... So if you stick to this point, then we can guide you. And you'll be successful. Guidance is Kṛṣṇa. Our duty is to present Kṛṣṇa. Just like somebody has sent you money order, 1,000 rupees. I am a peon. I am not giving you the money. The money is sent by somebody. But I do not open it, adulterate it—that is my honesty. That is my honesty. So the instruction is Kṛṣṇa's. If I honestly deliver the same message to you then you are benefited, I am benefited. And as soon as I pilfer it, then it is useless. I am useless and you don't get profits, success. So if you decide to take Kṛṣṇa's instruction rightly, then we can give you very good guidance. Everywhere you'll be successful. Everything is there.
Commissioner: Any plans to have training and...
Prabhupāda: Anything. It must be sanctioned by the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then it will be successful.
Commissioner: For success the people, the local language, so that they may...
Prabhupāda: Language difficulty is there. That we have to solve.
Commissioner: Therefore training has to be done here and in other places, and a center has to be there. You could plan one of those with...
Prabhupāda: Yes, plan is there. Just like we are doing. And we can give you in detail. Provided you accept this principle that we shall abide by the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So we have to follow this formula. This is śāstra-viddhi. One step to another. And if you don't care for the śāstra-viddhi, we can do that, but na siddhiṁ na avāpnoti. It will never be successful. It will be a show, big show, but there will be no siddhi. (pause) If you want to do according to the direction of Kṛṣṇa, our cent per cent cooperation will be there. We'll not touch a single farthing of your money, but we can give you direction, "Spend it like that." And government men, you can see that we are not touching a single farthing of your money, but it is being spent for Kṛṣṇa's mission. That you can believe. It is the duty of the government men to see that people may not misrepresent. That is the Vedic injunction. Pṛthu Mahārāja was to see that a brāhmaṇa is doing, acting like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya is doing like kṣatriya. So it is government's duty to see that Bālajī's money, Kṛṣṇa's money, is to the farthing spent for His mission. That is your duty. That is government's duty, that nothing is misused, nothing is misrepresented. But we know how to execute the mission of Kṛṣṇa. Anyone can know because direction is there. It is not a secret thing. It is open secret. But you have to act upon it. That requires training. And so far my experience goes, the whole world will take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unfortunately, I am struggling single-handed. And they are criticizing me in the Parliament. You have seen the recent article Blitz against me? What is that heading? "Ungodly face." I am doing ungodly? But they are advertising like that. Trying to make me unpopular. The Māyāvādīs, they say that Bhaktivedanta Swami is ruining Hinduism. They are saying like that. (Hindi) So I am being criticized in Parliament, I am criticized by the so-called jagad-gurus who have never seen what is jagat. And so on, so on.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, fifty thousand people come every year.
Prabhupāda: And this time, New York, the government, the police, they appreciated that this kind of dancing, it is not artificial. So here is life. They appreciated. What the American boys have got to dance for Kṛṣṇa unless it is from the heart? They are not dancing dogs that I have trained them and they are dancing. So there are so many things to be done in India but I am, without getting any cooperation, I am getting opposition.
Krishna Modi: Quite. Now let us, we must be active. We must be active.
Prabhupāda: It will be good for the country, for the whole nation.
Krishna Modi: And we will come Vṛndāvana also.
Prabhupāda: Please come. I am there for three weeks.
Krishna Modi: How many rupees per day for three days?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We have about a thirty-room guest house in Vṛndāvana.
Paramahaṁsa: You bring eighty persons with you, make nice arrangements.
Prabhupāda: If you want sir, that is charge. We charge.
Krishna Modi: Latest. Also I heard that this Channa Reddy, Governor of the U.P.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's one of our Gurukula children.
Prabhupāda: Let us cooperate. You'll see how I can change the face of India.
Krishna Modi: Let us train some members also.
Prabhupāda: And this is the only platform where real United Nations can be made. That is practical. That is practical. That United Nation has failed. If this Indian culture... I have given this philosophy to the American students. Andha-paṅgu-nyāya. That a lame man and a blind man, separately, both of them are useless. But when they combine together, the lame man is taken on the shoulder of the blind man, and the lame man has got eyes but he has no legs. He gives direction and the blind man goes. So the, at the present moment I am trying to spread this movement all over the world. But we have no means. So let America supply the money, and let them take our direction for the culture. That will be United Nation. And actually it will become. How they are dancing, black, white, Indian, American, European, in Ratha-yātrā? There is no politics. It is out of really spiritual ecstasy.
Indian man (3): You are just gone from (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.
Indian man (3): Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kurukṣetra and etc. and the...
Prabhupāda: Program was that they promised to give me land.
Indian man (3): Who?
Prabhupāda: That chief minister.
Indian man (3): Have they done so?
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Prabhupāda: Fourth Chapter, you find, evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Kṛṣṇa says that this Bhagavad-gītā knowledge was first of all given to.... Fourth Chapter. Yes.
"Now, this paramparā system being lost, I am again reviving the Bhagavad-gītā again to you, Arjuna." That means the author says if one does not understand Bhagavad-gītā through the paramparā system then the whole thing is lost. So you cannot interpret Bhagavad-gītā in your own way. Then the authority and the purport of Bhagavad-gītā is lost. So we are trying to revive this paramparā system, and fortunately we have sold million copies of this edition of Bhagavad-gītā. We are printing five hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, like that. And all over the world... There are many Bhagavad-gītās. There are about six hundred and forty different editions. But still our, this Bhagavad-gītā As It Is, it is being accepted very widely, and therefore we are very much hopeful. And as practical example you can see so many European, American, they have taken to this Kṛṣṇa consciousness very seriously. And before this movement, many swamis, yogis, and scholars went to the foreign countries, but not a single person became a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That's a fact. Not a single person. But now, because Bhagavad-gītā is being presented as it is, so many thousands, they are becoming devotees of Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this movement has practical effect, and both in the scholarly and people in general circle. And as advised by Caitanya Mahāprabhu, India should take this movement very seriously and send many trained teachers so that India's glories will be enhanced. People will take it very seriously.
Prabhupāda: ...brainwash.
Hari-śauri: But how can they take it that what we're doing is a bad thing. If we're training people how to avoid intoxication, how to avoid illicit sex, abortion, contraception.
Prabhupāda: They say, "Why you should avoid? This is life. Why you are brainwashing?" One boy was there in the beginning. What was his name? Ranchor, his name, I gave him. So his father argued, "Why you are avoiding illicit sex? This is life! Why you are afraid? I'll give you car. I'll give you girls. You enjoy. What is this philosophy, nonsense philosophy." His father was arguing. I think everyone's father argues like that. Lord Roland said, he said, "Why you are prohibiting this thing? This is our life. It is impossible."
Hari-śauri: The thing is in society still, even now, there are people who abstain from it. There are vegetarians.
Prabhupāda: There may be very few, one or two. That is insignificant. One million, two person, he is. At least especially in your country.
Prabhupāda: Well, japa... Whether his father is doing japa nicely, that is also doubtful. What to speak of children? Japa, children cannot... That should not be taken very seriously. Whatever he can do, that's all right. We should enforce, we should... But not that if he does not immediately, he should be rejected. No.
Jagadīśa: You've often said the first-class intelligent men are the brāhmaṇas, second-class intelligent men are the kṣatriyas...
Prabhupāda: So we have to train like that, guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ, not that everyone should be Sanskrit scholar. Why? It is not necessary. There are so many other things.
Jagadīśa: The inclination depends on guṇa-karma.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Although by nature we should not enforce something. We should see for which work he is suitable. You should engage him. And we must have all departments of work—the weaving department, the plowing department, the cow-keeping department, the Sanskrit department, the English department, the trading department. We should have all the departments. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Prabhupāda: Certainly. Unless one... But if there is a class of men, ideal, who understands God, then people will follow. We require one moon. Then the darkness will be dissipated. But if in the millions of stars, what is the use? So they are creating millions of rascals, not one sane man, the modern civilization, the so-called philosophers, so-called scientists. Don't mind. This is the fact.
Dr. Kneupper: Do you basically reject the modern civilization?
Prabhupāda: No, no. I say they are being foolishly trained.
Dr. Kneupper: I see.
Prabhupāda: The whole education system is bad.
Dr. Kneupper: You see no hope that there will be change.
Prabhupāda: There is hope. There is cent percent hope, provided you accept the right way.
Dr. Kneupper: But would you say the right way would have to be, let's say, to be a follower of Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: God means Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jagadīśa: They need a head.
Prabhupāda: A head means you have to train head. If you cut head, then how there will be head? Neither tail, neither head. Head means you have to train them, head. There is no need of so many men here. Why?
Jagadīśa: Many of the men who are here are on Haṁsadūta's party.
Prabhupāda: So do they require here?
Haṁsadūta: I sent all the men here because Mahāṁśa promised that there would be a program lined up but there is no program. That's why they're just... Now they all want to go, and if they can go I can send them. They are ready to go. They don't want to stay.
Prabhupāda: So?
Mahāṁśa: The problem is that the programs I didn't arrange because the devotees were not regular in coming. I didn't know when they were all coming. So if I arrange a program that means my men...
Prabhupāda: But therefore the meeting is here. Do here now.
Mahāṁśa: Yes, now it can be done. But I couldn't do...
Prabhupāda: So it can be done. Why can you...? What? When it will be done, do then.
Prabhupāda: He is here from the last June. He is not acquainted?
Mahāṁśa: He's only here since about ten days. He's not here for a long time and he's not very forceful in making them do the work.
Prabhupāda: So who will be forceful?
Mahāṁśa: He can be trained. I'm training him.
Prabhupāda: So that training... Everyone is under training; then who will be head? If in old age you have to be trained up, then when they will be trained up? So what is the..., to sit down silently? That's all?
Mahāṁśa: We'll send the parties out...
Prabhupāda: Make. Make immediately program, where to go. So why you are not making?
Mahāṁśa: Now? Here?
Prabhupāda: Yes, make program immediately. Write what to do.
Mahāṁśa: I was thinking one bus should go immediately to Kathinagar because they want to have program there and they are ready to arrange it and we can collect some money immediately for the expenses which are going on now.
Prabhupāda: So go. Go.
Prabhupāda: Rādhikā with Her friends, they are cooking. And they cook so nicely that parama ānande kṛṣṇa korena bhojana. With great pleasure Kṛṣṇa is eating. And that we have to distribute. Not dog's food. You do not know what is the purpose of this mission. No need. Here is a good chance, don't spoil it. Produce food. Make profit, you spend for Kṛṣṇa. Train all devotees how to cook. All women. Don't distribute dog's eatable things. Kṛṣṇa prasādam.
Kṛṣṇa is taking with great pleasure. That prasādam you have to distribute. Not that dog is rejecting and you have and you distribute that prasādam. Why do you think like that? This prasādam, this so-called, rubbish thing which is rejected by dog and you are offering to the human being. You do it. If you have no money I shall pay. There is no question of scarcity of money. Don't spoil money, but spend for real purpose, that's all. And you arrange for huge agricultural... Whatever is required, water, we shall arrange for that. Labor. Everything. And if you perform yajña, there will be rain. Anyway, I asked you the other day to fill up the tank. What is the difficulty?
Prabhupāda: The home attachment is so great. These Delhi passengers, they are coming, hanging, and there are so many accidents daily. And few hours he will live with wife. That is his home. And whole other, out of twenty-four hours, seventeen hours are outside, and maybe seven hours at home. But still, he'll come home. The home attachment is very big. Therefore we have to create attachment for this hari-saṅkīrtana. If you create that attachment, then they will give up home attachment, try life, to live here. Athāsaktiḥ. You have to train them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in such a way. Then
Āsakti. Then they will be attached here. Spiritually if you enlighten them, then they'll be attached. They'll voluntarily say they are accepting here. The chanting, chanting, then... This is the beginning, that "You chant and take prasādam." Then ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). Gradually the heart will be cleansed, and gradually they will be elevated to the platform of āsakti. Then they will not want money, they will not want... Then they will live here, work, just you are doing.
Prabhupāda: This freedom means you can manufacture your own religion. And this is freedom. They want this freedom, that you can manufacture. Yato mata tato patha, as the Ramakrishna Mission says, that "You can manufacture your own way of religion."
Dr. Ramachandra: Somebody said religion is the opium of the masses.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they will say.
Dr. Ramachandra: That is... They trained us.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Ramachandra: I think you're right in saying that the government has rejected it, in that sense.
Prabhupāda: But they do not know what is religion. That is the difficulty. Religion is here. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is religion.
Guest (9): Recently a political party also has alleged that ISKCON temples have become abode of the CIA agents.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is.
Indian man: The body comes, then the soul. But that part is, I don't...
Prabhupāda: First of all, you have understood that unless you are capable of training your child not to die, you should not become a father. First of all, you have to accept this principle. Then how to save the child from death, that is next question. Let us go step by step. Your question was what is the good sex life, the answer is given here.
Indian man: Answer is very complicated.
Prabhupāda: Not complicated. The answer is... But how to become expert to save the child from death, that is another science that you should know. If you want to stop your self... (break) ...no need of a child to whom you have to give your care to make him, to raise him in such a way, if there is no such need, then there is no need of sex life. If you enjoy sex life for sense enjoyment, that is atrocity. That is atrocity. That is Vedic civilization. Because before sex life we have got saṁskāras, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. The purpose is there, that "I shall train my child how to stop death. And the child must be so good that he will take my instruction." And therefore garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. So without garbhādhāna-saṁskāra, one who enjoys sex life, he is the most sinful. Not that "Whenever and wherever I like and with whomever I like I shall have sex life." It is all sinful activity. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says dharma aviruddhaḥ kāmo 'smi. Sex life which is not against religious principles, that I am. So if we try to understand this one verse, we become self-realized. Similarly, each verse of Bhagavad-gītā is like that.
Mr. Malhotra: No, but not taking any wheat, like on ekādaśī day, all such things.
Girirāja: That's training. Once we surrender to the spiritual master, then he trains us in the process of spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu-mārgānugamanam, ādau gurvāśrayaṁ sad-dharma-pṛcchāt sādhu-mārgānugamanam.(?) These are the process.
Mr. Malhotra: Sādhu-mārga.
Prabhupāda: Sādhu-mārga.
Girirāja: We study the śāstras every morning and evening in all of our centers, so we become educated. (break)
Prabhupāda: Four places, Haridvar, Prayāga, Vṛndāvana.
Mr. Malhotra: But after every 11 years or...?
Prabhupāda: No. It comes in rotation, every four years.
Mr. Tombe: So how can we chalk out a program of, say, training of leaders from the villages...
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have to take lessons from the biggest leader, Kṛṣṇa. Aham ādir hi devānām (Bg 10.2). He's the leader of the demigods also. We have to take lesson from... That lesson is there, Bhagavad-gītā. But we do not take it. We manufacture our leadership. That is the defect. What Kṛṣṇa said... Everyone is proud of reading Bhagavad-gītā, but the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā is how to kill Kṛṣṇa, that's all. That is their... All these. What can I say? These misleaders, they are doing that. Leadership is already there. Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna is learning from Kṛṣṇa. So if you learn from Kṛṣṇa you become perfect leader. But we do not take Kṛṣṇa's instruction. We manufacture our own ideas. That is failure. Otherwise in our country so many learned sages, especially Kṛṣṇa is there, and their books are there, their instructions are there. We do not take them. Still we become leader. So what kind of leading? He's imperfect. So he cannot lead. Then there will be some mistake and chaos. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu said... He said bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra (CC Adi 9.41). You understand little Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Hm, very good.
Indian man: They cannot speak in English. That's the whole difficulty, they are speaking Hindi and Gujarati. They are very, feeling very shy. And he's very great expert in growing this wheat grass which has become very popular. Everybody likes very much. Your devotees are also liking. He's an expert in this. He's a very good music teacher, he has a very good tape recordist. Puppeteer, also he's making these puppet for last twenty years. He's expert in making puppets. We can make kṛṣṇa-kathā puppets also for our theater. And he can train our young boys for the same thing. Video tape and everything, he knows about this audio-visual communication...
Prabhupāda: Everyone has got some talent. So svakarmaṇā tam abhyarcya. That is wanted. Whatever talent you have got you can utilize for Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man: And I want to utilize for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I know him for last 22 years.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) ...this grass.
Indian man: That is a very good, that was wanted by (indistinct), he is taking every day.
Prabhupāda: In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all varieties of work can be utilized. (Hindi) Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ (CC Adi 17.31). He got perfection, Vaiyāsaki, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, simply narrated. Narration is also kīrtana. Recitation of Bhāgavatam. By reciting Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam he became perfect. Abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Śrī-viṣṇoḥ śravaṇe parīkṣit. Parīkṣit Mahārāja simply listened. There are navadhā-bhakti, nine kinds of bhakti process. Any one of them, you be expert and you'll be perfect. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (SB 7.5.23). So, where his family?
Prabhupāda: Oh, Sriram is a famous man.
Indian man: No, not that millionaire. Another Sriram. And they were from Delhi. Just I'm talking only about 1939-40. In Karachi he came. He said every boy, before marriage, his marriage, he was supposed to go and take training from a prostitute for a month or so.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Indian man: If a boy was not trained there he could not find a good wife.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā.
Indian man: That was a part of his qualification to get a good wife.
Prabhupāda: Now how is this (indistinct) because the bride and bridegroom is selected by the parents.
Indian man: Yes, the parents would not select that boy.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Dr. Patel: If they are there, they are not well-off.
Prabhupāda: No, there are. Just like we are creating these brāhmaṇas all over the world; not many, but some of them. There is at least one ideal class. But the modern society, they do not want brāhmaṇas, neither anybody interested to become a brāhmaṇa. That is animal society. You cannot ask a dog, "Please come here. I shall train you as a brāhmaṇa." (laughter) That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Our mixing with the Western type of society...
Prabhupāda: Western, Eastern, we don't...
Dr. Patel: We have actually imbibed their spirit of special, I mean, arrangement or management. Otherwise, up to the other day, we were well-classified. After doing that fifty or hundred years, perhaps, we have lost our real mooring.
Prabhupāda: No. It is necessary that in the society all classes of men must be there. Then it will be in order, on order.
Prabhupāda: They are not followers. If they do not follow their guru, then what kind of follower...?
Dr. Patel: Same with the Vallabhācārya's followers.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Unless guru trains the disciple rightly, there will be difficulty.
Dr. Patel: Their chief belief is that God comes in the form of the guru, and so guru should be worshiped as God even after his death. God comes in the form of guru...
Prabhupāda: And kick out God. And kick out God.
Dr. Patel: That is the thing. "God comes in the form of guru" is all right. So yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deve tathā gurau (ŚU 6.23). Otherwise you cannot get...
Prabhupāda: Guru is manifestation of God, but that does not mean we kick out God.
Girirāja: Of course that is our business to construct temples.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple (indistinct). Temple means preaching center. This Gurukula I have made for temple (indistinct) center. Now they have made it but that (indistinct). Purpose is, that whole world in the neophyte stage, they will (indistinct), man-manā bhava mad..., think of Kṛṣṇa, offering obeisances, offer (indistinct) from the persons maintaining the temple (indistinct). Therefore they do not like that a temple should be constructed, it is waste of... (indistinct) ...must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting that "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals, just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and (indistinct) spiritual understanding. This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce, enjoy, invent so many things for sense gratification." Western civilization. And this is very attractive to the rākṣasa class. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy. This is the rākṣasa mentality. As soon as there is television, or similar invention, they become very much enthused. They purchase and sitting down, they waste their time. I have seen in America the old man of family, one dog, one television, simply wasting time. And 50 cents for eat. How they are wasting the valuable human life. How they are kept in the darkness. This is life. I have seen television. All some fictitious stories. Here, trained position. They have manufactured one big hammer and training strongly and these rogues they are sending their hammer to train and as soon as the hammer... smashed. They want to see. One man kept ferocious dogs and one girl (indistinct) the dog is chasing and the girl is screaming (indistinct) so many (indistinct). You know this?
Prabhupāda: Everyone will be interested.
Jagadīśa: Yes. And stay for some time in one place, find some local people, train them up cooking...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is good.
Jagadīśa: ...kīrtana, speaking, reading the books...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is wanted.
Jagadīśa: ...and let them set up a small center in their house or purchase one storefront.
Prabhupāda: If one is convinced about this favorably, that is success. It doesn't matter what dress. Let him teach his family, and the neighborhood. Let them do their own business. It doesn't matter. That is... Let them understand Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa science. That is wanted. Do that program. Make that program. He is coming, Rāmeśvara. Take to it very seriously. (break) I can cycle even now. In our childhood... I had car, but my nephew was driving. I never drove. In 1925, I purchased one Buick car.
Mr. Asnani: Even we are encircling ourselves in the desires, cage.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param... They do not know the aim of life. Therefore apaśyatām ātma-tattvam (SB 2.1.2). Cannot see what is the aim of life. Therefore it is the duty of the parents. That is advised by Prahlāda Mahārāja. Kaumāra ācaret prājño dharmān: (SB 7.6.1) "From the very beginning of life they should be taught about this Bhāgavata-dharma." That is brahmacārī. Brahmacārī, train him to be self-controlled... If I ask you, "Give me your sons. We shall teach him how to become self-controlled," you'll laugh. Because you know, "What will be the benefit by becoming self-controlled? There is struggle for existence. He has to earn money, maintain himself." I have got this experience.
Mr. Asnani: Yes. You told my wife also.
Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested. That is the difficulty in this age. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ (SB 7.5.31). They do not know how one can become happy. They are simply hoping against hope. Durāśayā. Aśayā means hope, and dura means which will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ.
Pradyumna: You wrote that essay one time, "Hope Against Hope."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hope against hope is which is never fulfilled.
Prabhupāda: Just like sex life is enjoyment, but a person who is suffering from tuberculosis—his death. He'll die if he indulges in sex life. That is medical science. "So it is condemned in the material world, not in the spiritual world. If you have good health, you can enjoy sex life. But you have tuberculosis? You'll die. Your sex life is death, and their sex life is life. That you cannot understand. You have such a poor brain that you could not follow even ordinary moral instruction of Jesus Christ." Answer should be given like that. "If you remain with your poor brain, don't try to argue. Be satisfied, your poor doggish brain, hoggish brain. You are like pigs and dogs. What you can understand about religion? First of all try to train yourself to be free from the sinful activities. Then you'll understand what is religion." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam (BG 7.28). Ultimately, a person, sinful man, cannot go to the kingdom of God. Is it not? First of all stop this sex life; then talk of God. It is a fact. When the order of Jesus Christ, "Thou shall not kill," for the last two thousand years the rascals have never stopped killing. They are simply increasing slaughterhouse. And... So they are so poor in understanding, they say animal has no soul.
Rāmeśvara: You said, "Think in terms of the whole world, not just one nation. That is our preaching." So you are training us to think very big, global.
Prabhupāda: We keep the ideal style of life. You learn and do it. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but if you want to be happy, you follow. This is our process. Āpani ācārī prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you make minus Kṛṣṇa consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Hari-śauri: Only if the chanting and prasādam is there.
Prabhupāda: Prasādam, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program.
Prabhupāda: Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Kṛṣṇa. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."
Prabhupāda: "There is no first-class man now governing the situation. All fourth class, fifth class, tenth class. There is no first-class man." I challenged him.
Hari-śauri: When he went out the door he said, "Oh, well, I suppose I'd better go back to my fourth-class life."
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. You are already.
Rāmeśvara: In Vedic culture, kings like Parīkṣit Mahārāja were trained when they were very young.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: So it seems...
Prabhupāda: They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force: "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all, śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, "Leg, please walk in this way." That's all, legs will move. He carries me. "Hands, give me protection." Immediately, "Yes!" A bad somebody(?) "Come on." Yes. Coming. "Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient..." This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men, simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is... What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.
Hari-śauri: If you bring more small books... Like you were going to do Padma Purāṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we can give.
Hari-śauri: ...and the Upaniṣads, like that. Those will also be very...
Prabhupāda: That will be nice. I was training, but they have not become so expert. As I am doing Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad..., they could do Padma Purāṇa, Viṣṇu Purāṇa, Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa in the same way, but our students are not so expert.
Hari-śauri: And no one can give the purports that you give.
Prabhupāda: A little progress, they think they have become a great scholar—"Now we are for bhajana. Here there is no chance of bhajana. Let us go and bhajana." Means... Ei chure paka. Ei chure means a unripe jackfruit. Unripe jackfruit has become yellow. Means a stunted growth. You know stunted growth?
Satsvarūpa: Something stops growing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Growth is not there, like a dwarf, and he has become fifty years old. Vidvatvaṁ vayasaṁ-vinā... No, vayasaṁ vidvatvaṁ vinā. Where is Nitāi now? You know?
Satsvarūpa: I heard he was in Vṛndāvana.
Prabhupāda: There is no question. Community means to help one another. If you can help yourself, do it.
Satsvarūpa: But at least meet with us for training, for classes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is training. Community means I learn from you; you learn from the principles. But if you don't like community, you do it yourself. But this is opportunity. You learn it. Sādhu-saṅga (CC Madhya 22.83). By association of... And we must be sādhus. If we are also dogs and hogs, what they will learn?
Gargamuni: Rāmeśvara told me that in ISKCON mail order there are many people outside who are following. They are offering their food, having kīrtanas.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. "Bibliography." Is it not? So-called scholar?
Satsvarūpa: Footnotes, bibliography.
Yogeśvara: That means, perhaps, a gṛhastha couple, so that there's some girl for her to be with. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...not married. Better if she would have been married. So there is no candidate for marrying her?
Yogeśvara: Not in France. At one point she was expressing the desire to receive some training, and she even mentioned Los Angeles. But any center where she could receive training would be helpful. She's enthusiastic, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I know that she's enthusiastic.
Yogeśvara: She had... (break)
Prabhupāda: Preaching work is meant for the sannyāsīs, not for the married persons. Sannyāsī and brahmacārī, they go... (microphone rattling) Married couple also go... Generally it is meant for that. So if you have got sufficient men for preaching work, so you can make one center here and traveling...
Yogeśvara: Yes.
Gargamuni: She said, "Your Gurujī is just like Nethaji. He went outside of India and organized army of Vaiṣṇavas."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. Resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Kṛṣṇa will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakāra—we don't want to exploit anyone—Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of māyā and they are kept in darkness. What is this? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā (BG 7.14), and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economics and making them, training them as demons and rākṣasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakāra.
Prabhupāda: Ah hah, ah, yes.
Jayapatākā: That... So many devotees are very innocent. They'll fall prey. They'll be impressed by some fancy talking and then can be misled.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: But Your Divine Grace is very expert in very carefully training them up stage by stage.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: But other, they like to go right to the higher philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Last night I could not work.
Arundhati: Pradyumna just gave me a tape. It must have been from the other night?
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Arundhati: So...
Jayapatākā: It's a very...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to give them protection. So when we avoid envious persons, that is the injunction of the śāstras. This man wrote to the chief minister or prime minister complaining about them?
Jayapatākā: About his electric connection.
Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-śauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-śauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... (break) That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13), cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have to supply some good man for Fiji.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Vāsudeva was speaking that some proper person for teaching them pūjā...
Hari-śauri: This boy...
Prabhupāda: Trained, very trained.
Hari-śauri: This boy that's coming from Vṛndāvana, Sajjanāśraya, he's worked in Fiji with Vāsudeva a lot before.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: And he's trained to do pūjā now too.
Prabhupāda: These two brothers, they can teach very nice pūjā, first class.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're the best in the society.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And they are the sa... (end)
Hari-śauri: (laughs) You're the world's greatest revolutionary.
(Prabhupāda laughs) (break)
Hari-śauri: Now that we're being attacked like this physically...
Prabhupāda: So we must attack them also.
Hari-śauri: Should we actually have a training program so that our...
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: ... we'd know how to defend? Like you were saying varṇāśrama...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...system there must be kṣatriya and everything like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. They have...
Prabhupāda: We shall train them. Military march, Manipur. Slogan: "Jaya Rādhe! Jaya Kṛṣṇa! Jaya Babhruvāhana! Jaya Arjuna!" And then let us go. We shall organize Bombay headquarter, Manipur Vaiṣṇava state, send missionary all over the world, bona fide, scientific system of religion, ideal character. Ideal character. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ (SB 5.18.12). That we have to show. "Here is the sum total of all good qualities." That we have to show. We haven't got to go anywhere. Knowledge, good quality, happiness, advancement of life, everything complete. So let us go to Manipur. Arrange for that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So should we arrange for this April 5th, 4th, around that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: April 5th. No harm. We are... Kodaikanal, we wanted to go by the end of the...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You wanted to go... Bombay pandal ends about the 30th.
Prabhupāda: Thirtieth.
Prabhupāda: Nothing. The same thing. (break) Civilized man. "Beware of Dog." "Keep aloof, private place."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Fearful.
Prabhupāda: And just see result. Cannot believe in faith(?). Human being. And dogs are so trained... You have not seen the dog. It is within the house. You're passing, they'll bark, unnaturally disturbing. You cannot peacefully walk on the street.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes they attack people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not like people should walk on the street.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And neither you can, because their stool is everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strewn all over.
Prabhupāda: Vasan dānto guror hitam. The word is used, dānta. Dānta means sober. Children are generally restless, and the brahmacārī-āśrama means to train him how to become peaceful. That is the first training, not that to make him very good scholar in grammar. It is not said there. That is later on. First thing is how to make him sober. What is that? Dānta?
Pradyumna: Dānta, from verbal root, dam. "Tamed, broken in..."
Prabhupāda: Tame. Tame. Just see.
Pradyumna: "Restrained..."
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Pradyumna: "...subdued."
Prabhupāda: This is the first training. Otherwise he'll not be able to advance.
Brahmānanda: He'll be animal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The word tamed refers to animal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This, the right... So generally, from the very beginning, they are not tame, so even if he is in older age he's the same untrained animal, dog. A dog, old dog or new dog, the same. (laughs) It doesn't mean that a dog has become old, he's now tame, no. Tame, that is another thing. It has to be trained. And that is possible for the human being. You cannot make animal dānta. That is not possible. So if a human being, from the very beginning of his life, he is not trained up to become restrained... There is another word?
Pradyumna: Yes, restrained. Subdued.
Prabhupāda: Subdued. So then there is no chance. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas:(?) "If you want to bend this bamboo, when it is green, you can do it. And if it is yellow, can't. It will break." Tas, tas. This is Bengali. If you take one yellow bamboo, to bend it, it will crack and make sound, "Tas, tas." But when it is green, you can bend it. Kancai no wale paca means green. (Bengali) Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas.(?) First human civilization begins when you restrain the children not to become restless. This is the training. Brahmacārī guru-gṛhe vasan dānto guror hitam. This training is lacking. Therefore even in old age, the washerman business. I am bodily conscious, and I am training others also to become bodily conscious: "You feel like Indian," "You feel like American," "You feel like Englishman." This is education, the same dehātma-buddhi, that "I am this body," extended. The extended feeling of bodily consciousness, is that advancement? Is that advancement? The bodily consciousness is animalism. (aside:) Why you are taking? Huh? No, no. You keep it.
Prabhupāda: So we shall take it. This is Vedic civilization, that train the children how to become restrained, subdued, from the very beginning. Then he will take other education.
Brahmānanda: But what is the process for subduing?
Prabhupāda: That he should act simply for the benefit of the guru. This is the process. He has no personal interest. He'll go by the order of guru to beg alms from different householders and... They are innocent children. They'll go, ask, "Mother, give me some alms." And the mother also knows that "My child or his child, they are all neighbors' child. They will give." And whatever collection is there, he'll bring it to guru. So he does not claim that "I have collected. It is my property." No. It is guru's property. This is the first training. He works so hard to collect, but the property belongs to the guru. Guror hitam. This is first training. And that is the meaning of karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. That gentleman was quoting this. He does not know what is the meaning. He... Karmaṇy e... He is engaged to work, to collect. Just like you are doing that. You are, whole day you are working for the selling books, but you don't make a farthing even out of the profit. That is for the guror hitam, for the benefit of guru.
Jayādvaita: That is one of their objections, that "These people, young people, work all day... "
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You show. You show these quotes from the śāstra. "This is our training, guror hitam, for the benefit of guru. So this is our śāstra." (break) ...he comes, he should stay here. His name is Gopāla.
Indian: (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: (break)...two years ago. (break) ...eighty-one. (break) Oh, very nice. (Bengali) (break) Very nice. (break)...quired, but I remember this movement, the Godbrothers.(?) (Bengali) (break)
Hṛdayānanda: This is from Professor K. D. Vajpay, Tagore Professor and Head of the Department of Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archeology, Director, Excavation and Exploration, Chairman, the Numismatic Body of India... (break) "The poetic excellence of the Bhāgavata has been recognized throughout the ages by eminent critics. It is gratifying to see that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda has brought out an exquisite edition of this great work in several volumes. He has given the English rendering of the entire Purāṇa and has very ably interpreted its contents. The lucid style of his writing is discernable on every page of the volumes, which have been illustrated suitably. The printing and get-up of the volumes are superb indeed. Swami Prabhupāda has been known to me since his sojourn in Vṛndāvana when I was in charge of the Archaeological Museum, Mathurā. He has been propagating kṛṣṇa-bhakti movement in this country, in USA and Europe. It is to his credit that the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has been made a worldwide discipline. He has been following the path of the ancient sages in serving the cause of Indian culture. The philosophy of humanity and all pervasive love of Indian culture has been effectively advanced by the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, of which Swami Prabhupāda is the very soul."
Devotees: Jaya Prabhupāda!
Prabhupāda: No, whatever he is, for the time being, he's the best man. He's willing to give you service. He should be encouraged. He's so enthusiastic.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, " 'So, I have desire that the time will come when Prabhupāda will accept me and I may have the fortune to be taught by him and have the association of the devotees.' "
Prabhupāda: Very good. So take this man as important for future activities. Try to encourage him and train him. He'll be good help.
Satsvarūpa: More resolutions about book distribution. The temple presidents, in order to control the techniques of book distribution, whether they are going against our resolution not to use illegal techniques, the presidents should go out on a monthly basis and observe their own book distributors, how they distribute books in the field. And also the GBC man should go out in each of his temples in his zone at least once during the year to see how the men are distributing books. And if a temple continues some illegal technique for book distribution, the BBT trustees are responsible to do the needful to rectify it.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Satsvarūpa: We have made one resolution that certain techniques should not be done. They are too dangerous for arrest. So if a temple persists in doing those illegal techniques, then the BBT will...
Prabhupāda: Rectify.
Prabhupāda: But you... For me you make good arrangement wherever I live, that's all. But I know how you were living in that nasty hut, full of dirty things, mosquito, rats, dropping of water. And Nyer is attacking, municipality attacking.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You always said that we were so trained that we would even live on the roadside.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That you are trained. (laughs) You don't care for this palace or underneath a tree.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Formerly we were living like that as hippies, and now we live like that to serve you.
Prabhupāda: I was living in Rādhā-Dāmodara temple. It was not a palace. But before that, I was living in a palace. That is Keśī-ghāṭa. But this Gosāi called me that "You live here?" And "All right." Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī's, er, yes, Jīva Gosvāmī's place. "Let me go there." Now organize. Make very good plan that our Bombay temple will be always crowded with thousands of men and some program must go on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned the other day that five hundred devotees should always be there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. We have got place.
Prabhupāda: It is the duty of the Indians. But instead of Indians, I have to collect these young men from foreign countries.
Mr. Rajda: We were just now talking about it on the way. In India we must take it up.
Prabhupāda: Let there be one institution for training Indian youth, for this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Mr. Rajda: That could be done.
Prabhupāda: You do it, and it will be wonderful thing. Do it. In New Delhi. Or in Bombay we have got now very nice building.
Mr. Rajda: In Juhu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Cooperate with us. It is scientific. Last night our Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara presented very scientifically. We can challenge any scientist, any philosopher. So if you become serious, if you cooperate with us, this institution can set a great example, not only in India, but to the whole world. So you are so kind, you have come to see me. You have got desire. So let us take it seriously.
Prabhupāda: So Bhavānanda can go. For my bodily comforts, preaching should not suffer. This can be done somebody else. Preaching is our first program.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have decided last night that when Upendra comes... We sent them a telegram. I'll train him up for a few days and then...
Prabhupāda: That's all, that's all. That will be very nice. So call him. You are now popular in Bengal, avatāra. (laughter)
Gargamuni: That's common in Bengal. I was seeing in Bangladesh many men were bringing this pamphlet saying, "Oh, this man is the incarnation of Nitāi and Gaura. This man is the incarnation of..."
Prabhupāda: Very good. Keep that position. When you meet them, "No, no, I am servant of Nitāi-Gaura."
Gargamuni: No, that wasn't referring to myself. They were bringing pamphlets of others.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Mr. Koshi: Using the stick.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's how you trained us, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Mr. Koshi: Did you get?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, by Prabhupāda. Even though we were not five years old, he treats us just like as if we were five. Because spiritually we are still like that. So he is very strict with us.
Prabhupāda: All these boys I chastise vehemently. Even a little mistake.
Mr. Koshi: You...?
Prabhupāda: They tolerate. They know.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are afraid.
Mr. Koshi: What is your message to the world?
Prabhupāda: Again you ask me. (laughter)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there is actually a possibility. Very dangerous.
Prabhupāda: Yes. People are rascals. If induce them, "Vote," they will vote. They have no choice actually, who is good or bad. Therefore it is said, śva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ (SB 2.3.19). Some rascal, fools, animals, they are voting, "Indira is very good." Or "Desai is very good." So what is the value of? What they are? They are animals. You train the animals: "Dance like this," he will dance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. Even a monkey can be made to applaud.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. So their vote, their adoration, what is the value? By whose adoration you have become big? Some monkeys and some fools, some rascals, some dogs. And formerly it was the king should be approved by saintly brāhmaṇas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. And when the brāhmaṇas did not approve, they had the power of brahma-tejaḥ. Just like with Veṇa. Even in our own society, if someone is not doing nicely, then the others may, they come together and they say, "This person is not keeping standard." It is not that because I have power or something, one can maintain his position.
Prabhupāda: Whole thing is spoiled, vitiated. And ultimately this human form of life, it is a chance given by nature. Tathā dehāntara, you become a dog, next. Finished. And you wait millions of years again to come, take the human form. What can I do? These are nature's law. And they are also prepared. "Oh, what is the wrong there, if I become dog?" This civilization. Just imagine how much spoiled it is.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading newspaper) "Distressed Nanda could come... Mr. Gujarilal Nanda, former home minister and acting prime minister, has resigned from the Congress after his close association with the party for fifty-six years. But he has let it be known that he is not joining any other party. His resignation is a protest against the failure of the Congress leaders to learn the bitter lesson of the recent chain of events. 'The growing dissensions and acute hostilities among warring factions have given me a severe jolt,' he says in a statement. 'I can see no prospect of abatement of these unseemly encounters and any effective role for myself.' Mr. Nanda, who is seventy-six, says that 'The Gandhian modes and principles are as relevant and valid for the future of the country as they were in the past, and this is the path for me.' Mr. Nanda released the text of three letters he wrote to Mrs. Indira Gandhi on June 27th, July 19th, 1975, and January 21, 1976. In his first letter Mr. Nanda said, 'I have been greatly troubled by the developments during recent weeks. What is happening now must cause deep concern to everyone in the country. I do not comprehend the full import of the measures that have been taken during the last two days, and the consequences they may bring in their train.' On January 21st, 1976, he wrote to Mrs. Gandhi, 'The present circumstances call for some new initiative. The people would expect this to come again from you, considering the position of vantage and eminence which you have occupied. It is your responsibility to guard the vital interests of the nation. On this account, there is room for necessary precautions and exercise of special powers in certain specific fields.' "
Prabhupāda: What is that picture?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading) "Handicapped though, these foursome make a cheerful group as they paddle along on three wheelers every day from their homes in the King George Memorial Infirmary on Jagtap Marga, Maha-Lakshmi."
Prabhupāda: Now so many charges are coming against her. (pause) Hm? She and her son are the destiny of India? A woman and a debauch? They can do whatever they like. It's a farce condition. That so-called democracy is nonsense demoncracy. And by this demoncracy, it can be done. A demon may be, if he can simply secure votes. What is the position? Without any training Formerly the destiny was by rājarṣi. Royal power, but ṛṣi, saintly person. See the character of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Parīkṣit, Ambarīṣa. (aside:) At least, you cover some way or other with some cloth. Find out some cloth or towel, and cover it. Yes. All rogues, they are political leaders. Political leader means rogue. Nowadays, these... Here is so-called religious leader, Sai Baba, another rogue. This is Kali-yuga. (Hindi) There is no good man politician. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyāḥ (SB 1.1.10). Sumanda-matayaḥ. They have got a conception which is very, very bad, conception of religion, social, political. All condemned.
Prabhupāda: No, this should be stopped. Extravagance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Up until now, Rādhā-vallabha has claimed that no one else is qualified to do this, but...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...the BBT felt that he could be trained. Vipra dāsa is about forty years old, and he's a trained photographer for many years.
Prabhupāda: And every time Rādhā-vallabha changes something, that should be stopped. He is very much inclined to change something. This practice should be stopped.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "3) There will be a BBT budget meeting every week in L.A. at which all Press expenditures will be discussed and approved by Rāmeśvara Mahārāja, and a monthly financial statement detailing the Press expenditures will be sent to all the trustees."
Prabhupāda: This unnecessary expenditures like Sanskrit department and art department, this should be curtailed. We require money for Bhaktivedanta Institute.
Prabhupāda: First of all hear. Then tomorrow they... Kṛṣṇa is helping. He'll help more, more. We are not going to be misled by their leadership.
Girirāja: No. They have nothing to say. Actually, the way you've trained us is very good, that you always present their arguments and then how to defeat them or what is the defect, so when we go out for preaching, we're not baffled by their arguments.
Prabhupāda: That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's policy. Let the rascal Sarvabhauma speak first of all. Let his talk be finished. Hear silently. And then reply. He'll hear.
Girirāja: I found, at least in the business community, there are many mūḍhas.
Prabhupāda: Mood? Ah, mūḍhas, yes.
Girirāja: Their philosophy is to work hard and die.
Prabhupāda: That hog philosophy, which is forbidden. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān (SB 5.5.1). Why? Why you should work so hard? That I said, that Daily Messenger, in the pandal, hanging...
Prabhupāda: Simply fighting. They are not peaceful. That's all. Where is peace? You'll be surprised. During gas scarcity the gas was being supplied in Honolulu. This was in our presence. So the gas supply, whatever they had, distributed, and they had one sign board, "No more gas." So next man was so angry that he shot him dead. Just see. He had no more gas; he cannot supply. He became so much infuriated that he shot him dead. This is the result of this modern motorcar civilization. He thought that "Gas will not be supplied. Then I am gone. I am finished. So kill this man." This is education. (Hindi) Provided we train at least some ideal men, everything can be done. Everything is there. There is no scarcity of knowledge in India. We have to simply take it and practically apply it, bas. (Hindi) We are not sentimental (laughs) religious group. Everything practical. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society. Therefore I require that this must be pushed on for the whole human society, and naturally India also. (aside:) The prasādam arrangement is...? You give each item, one each... No, no, give me, give me, give... This is... Each item, you give one. I have got this ambition that Indian culture should be spread, and otherwise what can I do wherever...?
Prabhupāda: He's preaching His glory. He is everything, and these rascals are denying. And He comes: "No, no, no, no. It is wrong." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66). And a preacher means he is doing that, training people how to surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Will he not be...? He is... A preacher is giving real sense. To awaken this sense, Kṛṣṇa had to come personally. And he is doing the same work: "Surrender to Kṛṣṇa." How much great service it is. Prahlāda Mahārāja... He is asking, his father, that "Why you are training them to Kṛṣṇa?" "Better surrender. He has given you so much strength, so much power." That was... Prahlāda Mahārāja has given him. In spite of so much trouble given to him, he was speaking the same thing repeatedly: "Father, don't do this. Become a devotee." Stubborn. He was giving advice. This is the struggle between devotee and nondevotee. Therefore devotees are so dear to Kṛṣṇa. Despite all opposition, meeting all difficulties, they will say, "No, there is God. We must surrender." So he'll not be very dear? Just like soldiers for the country. They are meeting danger.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...I thought they needed some time to adjust. And these children, they all have graduates. They're all B.A.'s, and their parents approached me to take care of them at some time. Their members from their families were there, about four brothers. So they say they can spare one from their family. So I'm going to make an attempt when I come back and go all the villages in Manipur—it is small place, so I can go with them—and I can take one, one from each family, and...
Prabhupāda: Train him...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...to become leader there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This was your program, to ask each family to give one of their sons.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And Manipur is especially... Once I go to the family, and the family and the son, they agree, then I have, we have some authority on them to say that the boy is happening to properly..., and it is better that way, to have the agreement from the parents also, so that where they are fully engaged for lifelong, not just coming for some time and...
Prabhupāda: No. No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...go away. I don't want to produce like that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the opposite of the deprogramming problem in America. In America we have to take them forcibly from their...
Prabhupāda: Not forcibly.
Prabhupāda: So find out some... When something is offered, take it. Then we shall see how to utilize it. (Bengali) It is property, but it is being offered. Let us take it. You can pick up these boys from family.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Train them, and they will manage under our direction.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So next time, when I come back, I have a plan to go to all the villages with the slide show, or with the movies...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...and I'm going to request...
Prabhupāda: Each family...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to give one family, one member.
Prabhupāda: That's it. Very nice.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually they are very attracted to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So let them be trained up and then go there and follow our instruction and develop. In the meantime you can take it. The Lord Clyde, a crewman in the ship, he developed a British empire in India, organization. He's an insignificant person. He established British empire.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...but not now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become ācārya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all ācārya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The process of purification must be there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahāprabhu wants that. Āmāra ājñāya guru hañā (CC Madhya 7.128). "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not rubber stamp.
Prabhupāda: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gauḍīya Maṭha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara takana (?)(Bengali): "Joint mess." He said this.
Prabhupāda: The Apollo, they were dying. They prayed to God. This is also artificial. Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Our conclusion was that those three men who died were killed, that they never knew that there was a hoax while they were in training. Then, at the time when the spacecraft was going to take off they were told, "Now you're not going anywhere. This is only a hoax, so you have to act like this," and probably they did not want to. They refused. Therefore they were killed. We were discussing this yesterday, Gargamuni, Śrīdhara Mahārāja, Bali-mardana and myself. That was our conclusion, that those men must have been killed by the government.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise they'll disclose.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. And thereafter no one else died. After that, others did not die, probably because they were told that "Don't you do the same thing or you'll meet with the same fate. Unless you toe the line and... Then you will also be dealt with very severely." Because they're such big cheaters, they will not stop at anything. Killing to them is nothing.
Prabhupāda: Killing affair should not be regarded, criminal affair.
Prabhupāda: Sevā-bhagavān accept, can accept.
So master can accept service. So whenever there is devotional service, it is called bhāgavata-sevā. And jīvera dayā. (Hindi) If you have got something, then you can be merciful to others. If you have no knowledge, what you can do? The basic principle... (Hindi) In India, Bhāratavarṣa, exalted knowledge, and if it is presented properly, people will accept. They are accepting now, one man's effort. If many men are prepared to do this service, the whole world will be followers of Bhagavad-gītā. (Hindi) (break) ... come to give here India's knowledge. In big meeting I told him that "I have not come here to beg. I have come here to give." Everyone goes from... Even the Prime Minister goes-beg. All beggars. And it is known as "beggars' nation." But you can be the giver nation. You have got so much potency. But we are not training people in that way. They are learning dog dancing. That's all. If we simply understand this one word, beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā... There are so many students of Bhagavad-gītā, but nobody understands Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: But they'll not hear. If you forbid the dogs, "Don't bark," it is like that. Why waste time? He'll go on with all politics. Negative, as soon as you say, they'll neglect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some subject matter...?
Prabhupāda: It requires training.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there some subject matter...?
Prabhupāda: Just like so much training we are giving; still, there is falldown. So simply by saying...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you had... There was a newspaper article about a few weeks ago, and you had said that something could be written on this subject. That's the only reason I...
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) Hm.
Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is there any subject that would be good to write on?
Prabhupāda: Oh, we have got so many subjects, positive. Read our books and present it in a different way. You can write intelligently. That's not bad.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). They remain blind, yes. They like to remain blind. Their leaders are blind, and the followers want to remain blind. This is māyā. Unless there is training... This is instruction, ādau gurvāśrayam. If he doesn't understand the aim of life... It is meant for the most fortunate. Ei rūpe brahmāṇḍa bhram..., kona bhāgyavān jīva. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu (BG 7.3). But still, as far as possible, we shall take opportunity to try to convince him. Just see. This man is with us for the last six months. He is not ready to sacrifice his hair.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some dead stool.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some lump of stool on the head. Even that, he won't give up.
Prabhupāda: No, what is the value of this hair? But it cannot be... He has got some conviction, "I am not ready still for give up this hair." Did he not say like that? What he'll do? He'll be forced to give up his hair and the body on which it has grown. Still, he'll not do. Obstinate dogs. This is their position. They are not human being. Mūḍha, narādhama, māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. These are the terms. They apply. One thing I... Take your note. You can write one letter which will be presented to Shriman Narayan when Gopāla Kṛṣṇa goes.
Prabhupāda: Even...?
Indian man (1): Samatā.
Indian woman (5): And do not grieve because this body is meant for death. Now, I think also...
Prabhupāda: So that requires training.
Indian woman (5): Then also compassion will come in, yeah?
Prabhupāda: Everything requires training.
Indian woman (5): But if you are compassionate, you feel the pain. Then how does that go with even-mindedness?
Prabhupāda: Compassion... That is little advanced. That's all. But that is not the stage of perfection. That animal has also, compassion. That is not a very big thing.
Indian man (1): You mean from human point of view.
Indian woman (5): No.
Indian man (1): Not to hold in doubt.
Indian woman (5): Can the human heart feel compassion?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Indian woman (5): The human heart cannot take to compassion?
Prabhupāda: There is compassion. It is revived. That's all. All the good qualities are there, because he's part and parcel of God, but in ignorance they are now covered. You have to discover. Just like Brahman. You are Brahman by nature, but you are thinking, "I am this...," "I am American," "I am Indian." And that is your disease. "I am Hindu." "I am Muslim." "I am gṛhastha." "I am sannyāsī." That is your disease, more or less. But actually you are Brahman because you are part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman. So when you actually realize yourself-brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54)—no problems. All problem finished. So that is required.
Young man (3): Ah, this is understood, but...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you think stick to your own rules, that "I don't care for your material rules," who cares for you?
Young man (3): But one must train themselves...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is knowledge. You meditate upon this, that "I do not want to die. Why there is death?"
Young man (6): "I don't want..."?
Indian man (1): "Why is there death? I am forced to die."
Young man (3): I'm thinking he's not (indistinct) properly.
Prabhupāda: So the real problem is birth, death, old age and disease, and by following any rules, if you can stop this problem, then you are successful. It doesn't matter what is your brand of rules, but the problem is there. And we are suggesting that mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etām... If you want to avoid the rules of material nature, then you surrender unto Kṛṣṇa. We are suggesting. If you like, you can take it. But you are under the rules of material nature. That you cannot say, "No." (aside:) Now give them prasādam.
Prabhupāda: We don't care for anyone agrees or not. We push on. That's all. Do you think in India they agree Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Person? Then? We don't care for them. We have to go forward. That is our business. If Kṛṣṇa agrees, that is all right. We don't care for anyone else, agrees or not agrees. If our master agrees—we are servant—that is our satis... We don't care for ordinary...
Indian man (3): Unfortunately, that this training ground all over the world, excluding India, the birthplace of... There the movement should be increased. In present you have got temples in here...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) They say, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa? We have chanted Hare Kṛṣṇa many times. Now let us meditate." This is going on.
Devotee (2): The Indian government even does not grant visa for the followers of Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in India.
Prabhupāda: So we are not dependent on Indian government.
Devotee (2): Just a few months long.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Devotee (2): They don't give long-term visa for Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in India.
Prabhupāda: No.
Indian man (5): I feel, in this country at least, the young generation, the present generation, absolutely has got no base, religious base. And...
Prabhupāda: Religious base is there. There is scriptures. But they are not being trained up.
Indian man (5): They are trained, but after some time they...
Prabhupāda: They do not like to be trained up.
Indian man (5): What will happen to this generation after ten, twenty years?
Prabhupāda: No, if the rascals—again we have to say "the rascals"—the rascal leaders mislead them, there is no hope.
Indian man (5): There is no hope.
Prabhupāda: There is no hope. Now, to prove Bhagavad..., from Bhagavad-gītā, nonviolence, how it is possible? Bhagavad-gītā begins with the word yuyutsavaḥ. And now, if you want to make it nonviolent, that is misleading. Yuyutsavaḥ means fighting spirit. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ (BG 1.1). So where is nonviolence there? But our leaders want to prove Bhagavad-gītā nonviolence. Is not misleading? Hm? Why you should misinterpret Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: You promised them? (laughter) This time little advanced he has become there, Bose... Shaven-headed. (Hindi) His father was sannyāsī. He's the first sannyāsī of Gauḍīya Maṭha.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: His father was the first sannyāsī of Gauḍīya Maṭha, my Godbrother, Bhakti-pradīpa-tīrtha. He was very kindly. He liked me very much. (Hindi) He has come. Just try to train him. Son must be there. The son of a very big man. The father's quality must be there.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) I... Hardly I endorse. Without Your Grace, a man like me never... I realize your now...
Prabhupāda: (Hindi)
Indian man (2): He's so kind to me.
Prabhupāda: He is ideal sannyāsī. I think he's younger than you.
Indian man (2): Yes. As I am engrossed in this way. It is only through his grace I got extricated. It is impossible. I have got all opportunity. Still, the world has attract me in such a way that several times I promised to him; I could not extricate myself. But this time, I really strict and I last only... That strictness I found because I know it now.
Prabhupāda: He's coming from government service. Ācchā.
Prabhupāda: Write. That's a very good idea. (Bengali) This is real life. You are all qualified to do this. Idaṁ hi puṁsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā (SB 1.5.22). (Bengali)
Yaśodānandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this morning, as soon as the children heard that this name was going to be changed and it was going to be that, many of them became eager: "How I can be trained also to know these things?" The children are very eager to understand all these...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Yaśodānandana: ...the scientific approach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. (Bengali)
Dr. Sharma: Plus it should be nice.
Prabhupāda: It is already.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I'm going to have to look tomorrow and...
Prabhupāda: Hm. You can see, both, and select which room for which quarter. Big, big room... (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. Never do that.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, when our gurukula children apply for entry visas, they should give them visas right away, because these kids from abroad will come to India for gurukula...
Prabhupāda: Our program is open. Brahmacārī gurukule vasan dāntaḥ. We are training like this, covered in the Bhāgavata. Never mind government.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If you get accepted by the government, you may have to change you curriculum so much.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I mean, just this is a Vaiṣṇava institute, so when our students apply abroad for an entry visa, they'll get it right away, and they can get a student visa for four, five years. I don't think the gurukula kids come from abroad and then train them six, you know...
Prabhupāda: No, no, the parents are prepared to pick up the expense. That's all. Government curriculum is useless. They'll enforce kids to take eggs, three eggs...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's right.
Prabhupāda: ...in daytime, and four pounds flesh. Otherwise there will be vitamin, less vitamin. Or "Give them vitamins pills, this..." These... "Don't go to Yamunā. It is polluted."
Prabhupāda: Anywhere. There are lots and hundreds and thousands, but you have to collect them and give them proper education, vidvān, bhaktimān. Kāṇena cakṣuṣā kiṁvā cakṣuḥ pīḍaiva kevalam. So if you don't educate them as vidvān and bhaktimān, it is just like blind eye, kāṇa, with some disease, simply giving trouble. That's all. Pluck it out. The medical treatment is pluck it out. So what is the use of begetting cats and dogs? According to our Bhāgavata philosophy, if one is not able to beget nice children, then he should not become father-mother. That is real contraceptive. Gurur na sa syāt jananī na sā syāt, na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. The father-mother's duty is to stop repetition of birth and death. That is real father-mother. Otherwise dog is also doing that. Dog is also begetting children. Man is also begetting. What is the difference? The difference is man should be responsible that "This child who has come to me, this is his last birth. No more birth again." Na mocayed yaḥ samupeta-mṛtyum. "I shall train him in such a way..." Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). This is ideal. The means is already there. And Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). You can stop your birth and death, your son's birth and death. How? One who knows Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. It is open to everyone. Simply one has to know. And where is the difficulty? Kṛṣṇa is explaining Himself.
Prabhupāda: The local people... Some educated people come, they... Then it can be done.
Mr. Myer: 'Cause why...
Prabhupāda: But whatever they're doing, simply by training, that there may be some...
Mr. Myer: Yes. We can develop some sort of training program. The gurukula facilities are there. So if some young men are taken who are trained in that fashion, they could do quite a lot. And then we are having major problem in the distribution of some of the literature. You see, Back to Godhead seems to be a very powerful magazine. It has always been very dear to you. You started this even in India. Unfortunately it comes one year late, and we have about several thousand members in India. So I was wondering whether we should try to publish it in India now, because the quantity is not enough. And then have some members who are subscribing for the Back to Godhead... Because some people are unable to afford the very large membership. Otherwise we will remain very exclusive. We won't be able to reach the common man. So one of the things is that each man who comes into the temple, if he can buy a copy of Back to Godhead magazine, he takes away something with him which he can remember. Otherwise people come to Mathurā, they visit so many temples, and they don't carry any souvenir.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we're selling our literature here.
Mr. Myer: Yeah, but that's very old. Some of the copies are very old.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But they don't know that when they buy it.
Mr. Myer: And secondly, that doesn't cover much of the activity in India.
Prabhupāda: There is no "old." By date it does not become old.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regarding that land, if they want to give it, they'll give it. It's not that somebody's going to come, like Mr. Arora, and by his coming suddenly they're going to give us the land. It's a big political matter. It's not friendship. We just have to become very much prepared now for such occurrences. Those gurukula boys, as they grow up, they should be trained to protect Māyāpur.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say kṣatriya. Some of our men should be trained as kṣatriya.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is required.
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). There must be division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not that all one class. That is all wrong.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people are inclined in that way. Guṇa-karma.
Prabhupāda: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly. Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Unless these things are continued, the karmīs' poison will spoil them. He can do independent business; there is no harm. But must be connected with the devotional service.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Just like Abhirāma constructed that house. That's all right. He is within the campus. There is no harm. And now if he goes away after so much training, advancement, if they are lost, then that's a great loss for the Society. With such... With great difficulty we make one Vaiṣṇava. And again, if he goes like Śyāmasundara, then it is great loss. The whole idea is to give up attachment for material world and increase attachment for Kṛṣṇa. That is perfection. Now, according to one's position, gradually... But this is the aim. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59). Nivṛtti.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think Abhirāma has any intention of going away.
Prabhupāda: No, he has no intention, but he lives apart from temple connection...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then he will go away automatically.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, that is, they are not doing business. They are attached to temple activities. Anyway, these things have to be adjusted. You cannot follow very rigid in case of gṛhasthas. Some way or other, you have to adjust. We cannot allow them to be lost.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's clear.
Prabhupāda: Better allow them to live together. What can be done? But we cannot lose them. After training so much, if they are lost, then that is a great loss. This I am giving hint. Now you GBC, you change them. Make process.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Right now in our Society throughout the world, wherever there are gṛhasthas living in our temples, they live separate from their wives. And if they want to live with their wives, then they get a room or an apartment near the temple.
Prabhupāda: So may be like that, but must be attached to the temple.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's the clear point. We should not lose anyone.
Prabhupāda: No, that's a great loss.
Prabhupāda: Bribe is very bad word. "Under table." (chuckling)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Under the table. Unofficial.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mean I am paying on the table hundred rupees and under table two hundred rupees.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think you know everything spiritual and material.
Prabhupāda: Hm? So my fear is that after training our men so much, if he's lost, that's a great loss. Then future of society becomes very hopeless.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So the principle is that if a householder has outside employment and can pay, then he can live inside our temple buildings.
Prabhupāda: That's nice. What is the wrong?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: At least for five or six years now the system has been that no man and woman should live together in the same building as where the Deity is.
Prabhupāda: That is the system. Temple is meant for retired men. Brahmacārī, sannyāsī, vānaprastha.
Prabhupāda: The interest will go to the family, not to the Deity.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not good.
Prabhupāda: Jīva Gosvāmī was brahmacārī. So he gave to a gṛhastha śiṣya to maintain Rādhā-Dāmodara. But what is the position now? Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī was also a brahmacārī. Everything depends on training and mentality. If the attention is diverted otherwise, then it is lost.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Mādhavendra Purī, he gave his Deity. Now it's again... You know, who has Govardhana Deity. Vallabhācārya's line now worships.
Prabhupāda: They gave to the Vallabhācārya. But somehow they are maintaining the status quo.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Hm. Still very opulent. They do very elaborate. That Pushti Marg group, they do very elaborate Deity worship.
Prabhupāda: Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Big window, picture window looking out to your garden. That Florida property is wonderful. Very, very good property in Florida. They call it New Naimiṣāraṇya. They have about ten peacocks flying free, wild peacocks. They trained them. First them put them in a cage and keep them on the ground and feed them. Then, after they get accustomed to it, then they let them loose. They have some all-white color peacocks, special, and then many colorful peacocks.
Prabhupāda: There are no fox.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. The danger is not from the fox. It is from the other people. They catch the peacock and eat it.
Prabhupāda: Oh, no. (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't know. They think it is a pheasant or something. They have no idea it is a peacock, special bird. I asked Abhirama. Sometimes they fly away and they don't come back. I said, "Does it mean that they got lost?" He said, "We don't know exactly what it means, but we are guessing." The people there are...
Prabhupāda: Rākṣasa.
Prabhupāda: How people were happy in those days. A small income, they were satisfied. Nowadays they simply want money. Nobody was unhappy even if he had very small income. He would adjust, and develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. These things we have seen. I have seen that even the maidservant, what to speak of gentlemen. Where those days gone? And nobody was hungry. What is this nonsense civilization? Simply want of money and unsatisfied in every step. Especially in the Western countries they're becoming hippie. Why? The training is different.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now we are being given a new training by you, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We've become happy. Actually, apart from the devotees, there are no happy people in the whole world.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: How they are making dolls, show him. How nice dolls.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupāda: I brought them here and kept them in Māyāpur.
Dr. Kapoor: Ācchā, and they got the training there.
Prabhupāda: And they have learned now. Now they are making better dolls than the Krishnanagar potters. They are very intelligent. The intelligence was not properly used. Now they have got chance. In Bhāgavata it is said, sarasvatī jñāna-khale yathā satī. This knowledge, why it should be locked up amongst the jñāna-khala? In India this knowledge is available, and they should be packed up amongst themselves? Now it is the time to distribute.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These ones I'm showing now, they will be in a temple which has just been built in Fiji. It's going to be opened in August, and this will be one altar. These dolls are made by our own devotees. These are Deities, mūrtis, for installation.
Dr. Kapoor: Good doll. Very lifelike, huh? I first thought this was your photo.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just see how they've made these mūrtis.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they have made a statue—I am writing books like this, moving.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? No medicine?
Surabhī: No. No medicine.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Good doctor. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: So meet him again and take particularly everything. So you can go.
Surabhī: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Now I have to go. My train is leaving in about twenty minutes.
Prabhupāda: So you can go.
Surabhī: So I have to go to Mathurā. Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: You arrange. In this stage, don't tax me very much. Now I have authorized that will and everything. Follow that. You believe.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We'll discuss it with Tamāla.
Prabhupāda: As far as..., don't tax me. And printing, don't mind for price. Do it quickly and nicely.
Prabhupāda: Prasādam. And remain here for some time. Of course, according to my horoscope, these days are my last days. But if Kṛṣṇa saves, that is a different thing. They have calculated eighty-two years and two days?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Eighty-one years, five months, and twenty-eight days.
Prabhupāda: That is the..., according to calculation of my horoscope. Eighty-one years will be completed, and eighty-second year will begin. It doesn't matter I leave this body. Even in death I'll live. One year before or one year after... Now as far as possible, I have trained you. Try to follow the principles. And go ahead. Don't be set back by māyā's tricks. Go ahead, forward, at any cost. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said... So many obstacles are coming. Māyā is strong. And still, we are going forward. That's all right.
Devotees: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. (break)
Śrutakīrti: ...started on the beach walk at Pico Blvd. and went down to Venice Beach. That's where you used to walk, on Venice Beach.
Prabhupāda: Oh, it started from the beach.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You are the perfect father, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You provide everything for us-place to live, food to eat, everything. And you've trained us up with spiritual knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Chant. All together. (Tamāla starts, all chant together) (break)
Hari-śauri: Tamāla Kṛṣṇa is here, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: What meeting going on?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, very interesting meeting. Paramānanda, Vāmanadeva, Tripurāri Mahārāja, Ādi-keśava Mahārāja and myself discussing our Gītā-nagarī community and talking about varṇāśrama. Very, very... We were trying to reflect on all of the teachings in your books and what we had read about Kṛṣṇa's life and Nanda Mahārāja's community.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How the vaiśya community lives, how the different varṇas and āśramas function together, and what their responsibilities are to each other. We're trying to set up our Gītā-nagarī community based upon the teachings which you've given in your books. It is very enlivening and stimulating meeting. Dhṛṣṭadyumna Mahārāja will be coming tomorrow with his brother. And he has designed the very ideal plan for all of the varṇas and āśramas to live together.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Do it.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We have nothing new to find out. We have no research to make. You've given us everything. We only have to carry out exactly how you've trained us up and taught us.
Prabhupāda: Do it nicely. Hm. So you can go with your business.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. We'll continue chanting here. (kīrtana) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda. If you want me I'm right nearby, Śrīla Prabhupāda, just in another room. (break) Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: (speaking with great difficulty) It is... If I want to survive, of course I'll have to take something. It is not possible to survive without taking any food. But my survival means so many, one after another, as you say... It requires... Therefore I have decided to die peacefully in...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhavānanda Mahārāja was saying how last night you were saying that there's nothing nicer and more fortunate than to be the pūjārī of a Deity. (break) We'll just get the sum and substance. He's offering his obeisances to Bhavānanda Mahārāja and the other devotees he met here. He says he's very anxious about your health and progress. He requested me to give him a report. He says as regards to starting of the dispensary and also organizing a health teaching center for educating the boys by the latest audio-visual methods, he said that you seemed to be very earnest about it. In fact, he says that you told him to start as soon as possible. But he wishes to explain some of his difficulties. So Sharma and Jagadīśa, the director of education, and... They they've promised to go through the idea. But he didn't find that Dr. Sharma showed much inclination for this idea. The actual thing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, is that we want him to have a dispensary. We're not so much eager for his educational training. Naturally Dr. Sharma was not so enthusiastic.
Prabhupāda: No. Ours is spiritual education, no medical education.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. That's the point.
Prabhupāda: Preliminary health principles, they can le...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's already going on.
Prabhupāda: "And in the absence, we shall select another."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. I felt very bad whenever they tell me to leave the room like that. I don't like to leave you alone. I get very disturbed. I was standing on the other side of the door. I could not... I didn't like it, to be leaving you alone like that. We're trained always to be with you.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Very carefully deal with them. They are trying to come into the institution to grasp the power gradually.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the point. I can understand that.
Prabhupāda: How much urine I passed?
Bhakti-caru: Ninety, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda has not drank that much yet. Did he have milk and barley water?
Bhakti-caru: Not today.(?) But he doesn't want to take barley and water. (Bengali)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I'm going to take a short little rest now. Taking a little rest, just short. Then I'll come back.
Prabhupāda: Very carefully deal with them. They want to enter into our management.
Prabhupāda: A fortunate lady. All your mothers, they are all fortu...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: I remember some parents used to come, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Los Angeles while you were sitting in the garden in the evening. Once in a while, some parents would come and appreciate you so much that you've trained their sons and daughters to become a human being.
Prabhupāda: Tenants?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The parents used to come in Los Angeles in the evening while you were sitting in the garden.
Prabhupāda: Which garden?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are managing, I know, but you are all important men and unnecessarily you are bound up. You cannot go. So Lokanātha party has got some experience and let me go. In India the climate is now good. If I recover, it is very good. You know. So what is the wrong? If I die, then the body will be brought either in Vṛndāvana or Māyāpur, that's all. And if I live, it will be a great end of a life. You are all experienced.
Jayapatāka: As much as you have trained us, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that is only how much we are experienced. We don't want that you be burdened any more with material management problems but...
Prabhupāda: No, not from that point of view. What is the use of lying down here?
Jayapatāka: The kavirāja said...
Prabhupāda: Kavirāja may say...
Jayapatāka: ...that even that your body is going to, is got a life of six to ten years but he said even a healthy cow, if it's kept locked up inside of a room, then it will deteriorate.
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say, (laughs) don't keep me locked up. You do your duty as I have trained you and let me be free and if money required, he'll come and take and go back again as he is coming to take book.
Prabhupāda: There are two things, life or death. So if I die where is the wrong? And if there is death, that is natural.
Jayapatāka: For you Śrīla Prabhupāda, to be alive or to die is no different because you are in the transcendental position, but for us when you leave the body then we are bereft of your association. So for us it is very unfortunate.
Prabhupāda: Then live by my words, by my training. Mm. (pause) So you like this idea? Mm?
Haṁsadūta: I liked it.
Prabhupāda: Who is it?
Adri-dharaṇa: It's Haṁsadūta Mahārāja.
Prabhupāda: Oh. (pause) Most places you beg from the local place and subsist, otherwise purchase.
Jayapatāka: You are very famous, Śrīla Prabhupāda, wherever you go there will be crowds of people to have your darśana.
Prabhupāda: So they will see me, I have no objection. I want little milk from them, that's all. (pause) So far my presence is required (for) management, I think I have bequeathed, properly you can manage. Hm. It is to be admitted failure, the so-called medical treatment, failure.
| Page Title: | Training (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Visnu Murti, Mayapur |
| Created: | 03 of Dec, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=363, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 363 |