Richard Webster: Well, I understand. But I only think that the dietetic rules would be perhaps an obstacle to the spreading . . . I mean certain rules which are cleanly against European or American custom might constitute an obstacle to the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I mean, in the Church, in the Roman Catholic Church, you have the monks; then you have the laity who observe less strict rules without being considered outside God. And you don't have that, do you? I mean, the Kṛṣṇa movement is a movement of what we should call monks or religious . . . there is no laity in the Roman Catholic Christian sense—people of the world who are doing messy things, I mean, trading the drugs or whatever it is because it's a job they have to do, but belong to the Church without being strictly religious.
Prabhupāda: At least the Church people, the priests, they must follow strictly the rules.
Richard Webster: Yes. But I mean the difference seems to be with the Christian . . .
Prabhupāda: Common man may not follow or cannot, but those who are teachers or the priest or the leaders or the executive head, they must follow. Otherwise they cannot remain pure and they cannot take the position of teacher or head. Head must be clean. Other parts may be unclean, but a head must be clean; otherwise the whole business will be spoiled. Therefore, the strictures, rules and regulation, must be followed by four persons. One person is the executive head, like the president or the king. And the other person is the religious preacher, priest. And the other person is the public leader. So at least these three, four heads of the men's human society, they must be of ideal character. Otherwise the whole society will be spoiled. People will follow the heads.
yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tat tad evetaro janaḥ sa yat pramāṇaṁ kurute lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21) Just like in America, the former president Nixon is charged with so many offenses. So . . . this is not good. He is the head of the state, and he has been charged with so many pollutions. Then how people will follow exemplary character?
Richard Webster: Well, I don't know whether these accusations have been proved against Nixon. They may be true.
Prabhupāda: No, no, I think they have. (aside:) What are the charges against Nixon?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Certainly he already . . . it all depends on the standards that we want to have for a president. In other words, he has not been convicted, but he has accepted, himself, certain charges, that he has lied and he has tried to save his men, and therefore he has lied, and he has evaded taxes.
Richard Webster: Well, I don't know about that, you see. I'm only . . .
Prabhupāda: No, there have been so many charges against President Nixon. So no, whatever it may be, we are not concerned. But this is the Vedic principle, that the king or the executive head of the state, the brāhmaṇa and the public leader must be very clean. Otherwise society will be spoiled. That is the injunction.
Richard Webster: Yes, well, of course I agree.
Prabhupāda: At the present moment there is all over the world—we are touring all over the world—it is very hard to find out ideal class of men. That is the defect. In the Vedic culture the ideal class of men were the brāhmaṇas. Their qualification was: truthful; self-controlled, mind and the senses; and then tolerant; very simple life; full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life; and full faith in God. These are ideal character. But such men are not available at the present moment. So therefore the social idealism is defective. Just like in your body there are four divisions: the head, the arm, the belly and the leg. If the head is spoiled, then you are a madman. In spite of possessing hands and bellies and legs, you cannot work properly. So at the present moment the heads are spoiled. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. People advanced in education, still they are inimical, one man to another. If you are passing on in the street, the gentleman's house there is a signboard, "Beware of the dogs. Don't come in," because he cannot believe anyone. You go to the airport, any high-class standard man, they search out the pocket. So nobody is believable. This is the result of modern education. You cannot find out an ideal character man.
Richard Webster: Is this due to machines, do you think, to the prevalence of machines?
Prabhupāda: No. Yes. It is due to third-class, fourth-class men. There is no first-class men. The brāhmaṇas are considered to be first-class men, the kṣatriyas are considered to be second-class men, and the vaiśyas, they are third-class men, and rest, all fourth class and fifth class. So at the present moment there is third class, some, and all fourth class and fifth class. There is no first-class and second-class men. So unless they are, at least some of them are first-class men, ideal, the human society is doomed. It cannot be peaceful. Full of śūdras, fourth-class men. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is meant for creating some first-class men. This is our ideal. Therefore we forbid them not to take meat, not to have illicit sex, not to . . . because these things are accepted by the fourth-class, fifth-class men—unrestricted sex life, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are not to be indulged by the first-class, second-class men, even third class. It begins from the fourth-class men, fourth class, fifth class. So if one remains to the category of the fourth-class, fifth-class man, how he can be trained up as first-class man? Therefore these things are prohibited, because our aim is to create some first-class men.