Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect.
Just like the scientist—they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say: "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience . . . just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā.
In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge. Why this book is "David Wynne"? Now, you go to the creator. And the all appreciation is there, credit is given there. That is perfect. Otherwise, you see so many stones are there, figures are there. But when you study that, "This is the creation of such-and-such artist, sculptor, and he's such and such," then that is perfect. Study him.
Śyāmasundara: Just like by my knowing David, it's very easy to understand his sculpture.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: But someone who's just seeing his sculpture, they don't know what . . .
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: They don't know what he's like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not perfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge is when you understand the creator. What do you think?
David Wynne: I think yes. I'm not sure that the analogy . . . I think that the greatest . . . well, it is true, because with the greatest sculpture, one does get to the full understanding, but if one really understands the universe, well, one would see God, I suppose.
Prabhupāda: No.
David Wynne: No.
Prabhupāda: You have to penetrate. You have to understand who has created this universe.
David Wynne: Yes. Yes. But if a great artist was no longer alive, people would still appreciate . . .
Prabhupāda: No, but the God is not like that, no longer alive.
David Wynne: No, but that's what I mean. The analogy falls down there, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: God is not like that.
Śyāmasundara: But you're saying that it's better to first penetrate and understand God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Then understand the universe.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Before understanding, trying to understand God by His universe.
David Wynne: And science almost denies the existence of God in order to exist, doesn't it?
Prabhupāda: That is a rascal. These rascals say like that. Anyone who denies the existence of God, he is rascal number one. Immediately. And anyone, he may be a great scientist or philosopher, let him come. If he says that, "I don't believe in God," then I shall prove that, "You are rascal number one." That I shall prove.
Śyāmasundara: We'll bring you some scientists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So many scientist, psychologist, philosopher came to me.
David Wynne: But the greatest scientists have . . . are the humblest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real knowledge, when one becomes humbler, "Oh, God is so great." That is real scientist. I think Professor Einstein, he admitted.
Mukunda: Yes, he said that, "I want to know how God created the universe. Everything else is details."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So that means he's still thinking, "My knowledge is imperfect because I do not know about God." That is real scientist.