SB 02.09.01 atma-mayam rte rajan... cited

Expressions researched:
"atma-mayam rte rajan" |"na ghatetartha-sambandhah" |"parasyanubhavatmanah" |"svapna-drastur ivanjasa"

SB Canto 2

SB 2.9.1, Translation and Purport:

Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. That relationship is just like a dreamer's seeing his own body working.

Mahārāja Parīkṣit's question as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and mind, is perfectly answered. The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life, but he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called ātma-māyā. This has already been explained in the First Canto in connection with Vyāsadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy—by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā (15.15) also the same thing is confirmed; the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity, and all the living entity's consciousness and forgetfulness are influenced by the Lord.

Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is. All the nondevotee living entities are desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Like a person who thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualification, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as karmī and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of ātma-māyā by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I." The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as "I" or falsely thinks that he is the Lord and that everything in connection with that material body is "mine." Thus only in dream does the misconception of "I" and "mine" persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.

In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures

Lecture on SB 2.9.1 -- Tokyo, April 20, 1972:

Pradyumna: (chanting verse) Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Devotees: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: It is sandhi? Na ghaṭeta artha. It has been lost? Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Again, recite the whole śloka.

Pradyumna: (devotees repeating)

śrī śuka uvāca

ātma-māyām ṛte rājan

parasyānubhavātmanaḥ

na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ

svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā

(SB 2.9.1)

Svapna. Draṣṭur. Svapna-draṣṭur. Iva. Añjasā. Ivāñjasā.

Prabhupāda: Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā.

Pradyumna: Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā.

Prabhupāda: Now read again.

Pradyumna: Whole thing?

Prabhupāda: No, this same verse. Practice it. In this way you practice one mantra daily. Each mantra will purify you hundred yards daily. Go forward. These mantras are very powerful, given by Vyāsadeva Gosvāmī, vibrated. And spoken by... Śuka-mukhād drava-saṁyutamrtam. That is explained in the beginning. Just like a ripened fruit in the tree is already very sweet, and if it is touched by the beak of the parrot, it becomes sweeter. These are natural course. If the parrot touches the fruit, he cuts little by his beak, beak. Beak, you call beak? Then it becomes still sweeter. Śuka-mukhād drava-saṁyutam. Similarly, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is already sublime, transcendental. And when it is spoken through the mouth of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it becomes still sweet, just like the fruit. The parrot is also called śuka. It is called śuka-pakṣi, śuka bird. So this comparison is given. As the fruit becomes still sweeter by the touch of the beak of the parrot, similarly, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, because it is already spoken by Vyāsadeva, ripened fruit, the experienced contribution of Vyāsadeva, all the Vedic literatures, but when it is spoken through the paramparā system of Śukadeva Gosvāmī, it becomes still sweeter.

Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended to study Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from bhāgavatam. Bhāgavata para giyā bhāgavata sthāne. Bhāgavata means the grantha-bhāgavata, book bhāgavata... Bhāgavata means about Kṛṣṇa. Bhagavān is Kṛṣṇa. And anything in relationship with Kṛṣṇa is called Bhāgavata. So the devotee is also in relationship with Kṛṣṇa. He is also called bhāgavata. Mahā-bhāgavata. Those who are highly advanced, or first-class devotees, they are called mahā-bhāgavata. So this Bhāgavatam, it is the essence of the Vedic knowledge and when it is received through the paramparā system of pure devotee, then it becomes still more sweet than before. That is the purport.

So we should try to learn, get it by heart, at least one śloka, two ślokas in a week. And if we chant that... Just like you are chanting so many songs, similarly, if we chant one or two verses of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that will make you very quickly advanced for spiritual realization. We are therefore taking so much trouble to get this transliteration, the meaning, so that the reader may take advanced step, full advantage of the mantra. It is not that to show some scholarship, that "I know so much Sanskrit." No. It is just offered with humility to learn the mantra because one who will chant the mantra... They are all transcendental vibration. Just Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra... This is mahā-mantra, but they are also mantras, all the verses from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, spoken by Kṛṣṇa, spoken by... Bhāgavata also, spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Vyāsadeva is incarnation of Kṛṣṇa. They're also mantras, infallible instructions. So try to get it by heart, chanting. Either you chant by seeing the book or get it by heart, it is all the same. But try to chant one, two ślokas daily. Chant.

Pradyumna: (chants with devotees responding)

śrī śuka uvāca

ātma-māyām ṛte rājan

parasyānubhavātmanaḥ

na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ...

(SB 2.9.1)

Prabhupāda: (correcting) Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Like that. It is written like that?

Pradyumna: Ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: artha, artha separated?

Pradyumna: No. Together. Ghaṭetārtha.

Prabhupāda: No. Ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. It should, should not be. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Like that. Tā should be long. Tā. Ghaṭeta artha-sambandhaḥ. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Is that all right?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So pronounce like that.

Pradyumna: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Loud. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Pradyumna: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Devotees: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ.

Pradyumna: Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Again pronounce.

Pradyumna: Śrī śuka uvāca (repeats verse)

Prabhupāda: Very important verse. Now we shall go to the words and meaning. Again recite. Śrī śuka uvāca.

Devotees: (repeat verse)

Prabhupāda: Once again. Do it again.

Pradyumna: (repeats verse)

Prabhupāda: Again. (devotees repeat verse again) Anyone can recite? All right. See the book and recite.

Śyāmasundara: Śrī-śuka uvāca ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Parasya. The transliteration is the long a. You have seen? You just try to follow the transliteration. That will be easier.

Śyāmasundara: Parasyānu...

Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhava, bhavātmanaḥ. Ātmā.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Long a over a. Atmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Now, beginning.

Śyāmasundara: Parasyānu...

Prabhupāda: No. First line. (devotees repeating)

Śyāmasundara: Śrī śuka uvāca ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Read it again.

Śyāmasundara: Śrī śuka uvāca ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ na ghaṭetārtha...

Prabhupāda: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Next. Next. You read. Go on. One after another. (continues devotee reciting, Prabhupāda correcting) You read the transliteration. The thing is hearing the meter and repeat. That's all. The writing is already there, transliteration. Simply you have to hear the written. Just like you have chanted so many verses, songs, by hearing. The hearing is very important. A child learns another language simply by hearing, pronunciation, hearing. That is natural. If we hear one thing repeatedly, you will learn. You will learn. So one has to hear little attentively. Then it will be easy. There is no difficulty. Just like you are singing our song in tune, (sings) saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka **. This is by hearing. So simply you have to hear. Therefore whole Vedic śāstra is called śruti. It is a process of hearing. (coughing) This is a disease of old age. These are the warnings that the body is getting rotten. Go on. (recitation continues) Next. Each one of you. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. What is the añjasā spelling?

Devotee: I-v-a-n-j-a-s-a. Ivāñjasā.

Prabhupāda: Long a or short a?

Devotee: Long a.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Ivāñjasā. Añjasā. Añjasā means wholesale. Go on. (recitation and corrections continue) Na ghaṭeta artha sambandhaḥ, combined together it becomes na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. Tārtha. What is the spelling? Tārtha?

Devotee: T, long a, r-t-h-a.

Prabhupāda: Of tha? What is the...?

Devotee: T-a-r-t-h-a. Na ghaṭa...

Prabhupāda: T-h-a. There must be r.

Pradyumna: Yes. Ghaṭetārtha. G-h-a-t-e-t-a-r...

Prabhupāda: T-a-r. Yes. T-a, artha. So you were missing that r. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. All right. Next. (recitation continues) Get it next. Come here. So you have to study like that. So many ślokas, I am taking so much labor. If you do not read it carefully... It is not for that I am making business, for selling only, and not for my students. You must all read like this, practice. Why so much trouble is being taken, word to word meaning and then transliteration? If you chant this mantra, that vibration will cleanse the atmosphere. And wherever you go, in any part of the world, if you can chant this mantra, oh, you'll be received like God. It is so nice. And in India he'll actually receive like Gods if you chant this mantra. They will so offer their respects, so many. Veda-mantra. Next chant. (another devotee recites verse) Very good. Next, next. Bhanu prabhu (Bhanu recites) Thank you very much. He has pronounced very nicely. So he will teach you. Yes. Next. (another devotee recites verse) Very good. (another devotee recites verse) Very good. Yes. In this way, each one of you, you chant and others will follow. Then one or two days, you get the śloka by heart. You can chant. It is not difficult. Now read the word meanings and translation.

Karandhara: "Śrī-śukaḥ uvāca—Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said; ātma— the Supreme Personality of Godhead; māyām—the energy; ṛte— without; rājan—O King..."

Prabhupāda: Rājan.

Karandhara: Rājan—O King.

Prabhupāda: It is address, addressing. Nominative is rāja and addressive is rājan. Go on.

Karandhara: Parasyāsya...

Prabhupāda: Parasya.

Karandhara: Parasya.

Prabhupāda: Parasya. Yes.

Karandhara: "Parasya—of the pure soul; anubhava-ātmanaḥ— of the purely conscious; na—never; ghaṭeta—it can so happen; artha—meaning; sambandhaḥ—relation with the material body; svapna—dream; draṣṭuḥ—of the seer; iva—like it; añjasā—completely."

Prabhupāda: Añjasā.

Karandhara: "Añjasā—completely. Translation: Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working."

Prabhupāda: So, purport?

Karandhara: "Purport. The question of Mahārāja Parīkṣit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind."

Prabhupāda: It is a very important question. Parīkṣit Mahārāja inquired... Many people inquired that "How the living entity was with Kṛṣṇa, he became fallen in this material world?" Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that "How the living entity who was with Kṛṣṇa became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?" So this is the answer. Read the translation.

Karandhara: "Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: O king, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead..."

Prabhupāda: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a māyā, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, "I am fallen. I am material." That is the reason. He is thinking, "I am this body." Actually the body has no connection with me. That is experienced, that the body has no connection with the soul. The body is changing, dying. But I am the same. The same example, the moon: The cloud is passing over in different way. The moon is far away from the cloud, and it has nothing to do with the cloud, but it appears the moon is moving. (break) Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan. Except ātma-māyā, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa. This illusory energy develops when we forget Kṛṣṇa. That's all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Kṛṣṇa and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is giving us...

Just like when you play some part in a drama, if you feel that "I am king," then you can talk very nicely. And if you feel that "I am Karandhara," then you cannot play nicely king. Is it not? Feeling must be there. If you are playing the part of a king, then you must have the same courage and belief that "I am king." You have to forget that you are Karandhara. Then your part will be very nicely played. It will be appreciated. But if you think simultaneously that "I am Karandhara. I am taking, playing the part of the king," then you cannot play. So because we wanted to play the part of Kṛṣṇa, enjoyer, Kṛṣṇa is giving us chance that "You feel like Me."—"I am king. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God." (laughter) All these rascals, those who are feeling like that, "I am master. I am king. I am Kṛṣṇa. I am God," they are all simply in that feeling only. That's all. And this feeling is created by Kṛṣṇa: "All right. You want to play the part of a king. I shall train you in such a way." Just like director means, dramatic director means, he creates a feeling. His direction is nothing but how to feel.

Sometimes we played in our younger age Caitanya-līlā. I introduced. And one big director, Amrtalal Chosa, he was just like grandfather. He was one of the, just like in England Shakespeare and others, big, big dramatic, well-known persons. This Amrtalal Chosa and Girish Chandra Chosa, they introduced in India theatric... So we called him to give us direction. He was giving us direction, and repeatedly he was telling that "You feel like that," especially to me. "You feel like that." So actually, when we played according to his direction, the audience were all crying. And we could not understand how they cried. We could not understand. On the stage when we played, it was so perfect that all audience were crying. Actually we saw they were smearing over their eyes with... But the whole thing is artificial, but the effect to the audience became so nice. So similarly, we are... Actually we have nothing to do with this material world, But we have been trained by the illusory energy in such a way that we are thinking, "I am Indian. I am American. I am this. I am that. I am brāhmaṇa. I am śūdra. I have to do this. I have got so much duty," all these illusions, simply thinking. We have nothing to do with all this nonsense, but still, we are taking it very serious. "I have to do like that. I have to do like that. I am this. I am that." That's all. That is explained. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan: "Except the influence of that ātmā-māyā, the illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa..." Ātma-māyā. Read. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānu. Read it?

Karandhara: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ. Na ghaṭeta artha-sambandha. There cannot be any relation at all. Na ghaṭeta. Cannot be. Artha sambandhaḥ. Svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. The very exact example is given, svapna-draṣṭuḥ. Just like a man seeing dream: "Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!" He is crying. Another man is, "Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?" But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: "The tiger has attacked me." Therefore this example is given, na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly we have created this material world and activity. People are running, "Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh," identifying that "Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors." All these things are created exactly like that, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That's all.

Lecture on SB 2.9.4 -- Japan, April 22, 1972:

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava, immediately given lift to the Supreme Person, and because he understands Supreme Person, automatically he understands what is Paramātmā and what is Brahman. Others, they go step by step, but Vaiṣṇava is given immediate lift. Just like somebody is earning money, ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty dollars, and he is thinking of accumulating money, 100,000 dollars. So if somebody gives him immediately 100,000 dollars, "Take this," then ten dollars, fifteen, twenty dollars, hundred dollars, thousand dollars are all in. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply have tried to understand Kṛṣṇa, then you understand everything. Then Kṛṣṇa says, brahmaṇo 'haṁ pratiṣṭhā: "The impersonal Brahman is resting upon Me." So you immediately understand what is impersonal Brahman. Yasya prabhā: (Bs. 5.40) "It is the effulgence of Kṛṣṇa's body." Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). You understand, "Oh, Kṛṣṇa resides in everyone's heart as Paramātmā." So immediately understand what is Paramātmā. Immediately understand what is Brahman.

Devotee (1): Because it is a gradual process...

Prabhupāda: No, gradual process for the others, not for the devotee. Devotee is given immediately and that also in a simple way: in His form of name, nāma-rūpe. You simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So devotee is privileged so much, especially in this age, that "You take God, the Supreme Absolute Truth, by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." If you do it properly, then everything is done. You are given the thing immediately, but it may take some time. That is gradual. That is another thing. And for others, those who are trying to know the Absolute Truth by their own effort, for them, first realization is Brahman. Then next realization is Paramātmā. And if they can surpass these two realizations, then, some day, they may become fortunate to understand what is the Supreme Person. (break)

Cintāmaṇi: ...can't we remember like when we were in the womb of our mother? We can remember things, like when we were children, but we have no memory. When we were...

Prabhupāda: Hm? What is that?

Karandhara: Why aren't we able to recall when we were in the womb?

Prabhupāda: Room?

Karandhara: The womb of the mother.

Prabhupāda: What is to be done in the mother's womb? What is to be done? What is the question? I cannot understand.

Karandhara: She wants to know why we can't remember that, why I can't remember when I was in the womb.

Prabhupāda: You cannot remember so many things.

Cintāmaṇi: But you said that when we change bodies we forget everything, that after death that... I don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Change bodies... Just like you have changed your body from the body of the womb, and at the present moment... But you don't remember all the incidences that have happened. So sometimes we remember; sometimes we do not remember, like that. But generally, if we... We remember during lifetime, but we forget also. Even if we forget, that does not mean I am dead. Forgetfulness is explained, māyā. We forget Kṛṣṇa. We forget that "I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa" by forgetfulness. That is explained. What is that? Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan. Ātma-māyā. It is a illusion. That forgetful... Actually there is no forgetfulness. I should not forget, but because I am illusioned, therefore I forget. Because... I forget means I am illusioned. Ātma-māyā. Influenced by the modes of material... The one who is most influenced by the modes of material nature, they forget. Just like you are worshiping Kṛṣṇa. But others, they are not worshiping. They are to be awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from Kṛṣṇa. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyāya. I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, "Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there." So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that's all. Actually we don't forget. It is temporary. Ātma-māyām ṛte. It is only it is action of God's external energy. Because I wanted to forget Kṛṣṇa, therefore Kṛṣṇa has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have saṅkīrtana.

Lecture on SB 2.9.13 -- Melbourne, April 12, 1972:

Prabhupāda: Bahu-rūpa ivābhāti māyayā bahu-rūpayā. Actually this is māyā, but bahu-rūpayā, by the interaction of the three modes of material nature there are varieties. Similarly in the spiritual world, although the spirit is one, there are also varieties, saṁvit... There are... These three qualities, there it is known... What is that called? Now, just now I forget. Saṁvit sandinī. Sandinī saṁvit. That is described in Caitanya-caritāmṛta, there also, varieties. So the Māyāvādī philosophers, they have no information of the spiritual world. Therefore they are thinking that spirit means something void of all these varieties. They cannot conceive that in the variety there can be enjoyment. Here they have got very bad experience of varieties. Therefore they want to make... Buddha theory is like that, varieties, varieties—the earth, water, air, fire. So if this body is made of all these varieties, so you make it nirvāṇa; you kill it or dismantle it to the varieties. Just like when anything in this material world, when it is annihilated, it goes. This, our body... Just like when we leave this body, the matter remains there, lump of matter. Gradually it becomes decomposed, and some water comes out. The water goes to the water, the earthly part goes to the earth, the fiery part goes to the fiery. In this way, this combination of matter becomes dismantled. That is called nirvāṇa, finished. That is Buddha theory, that "By chance, a combination of material elements has formed these bodies, and by chance, a living force has come out, manifested, and on account of the living consciousness, we are feeling pains and pleasure. So in order to stop the so-called pains and pleasure, you dismantle this machine. Then there is no more... You become zero. Then there is no more pains and pleasure." This is Buddha's theory. The same principle, that you have got some pain on your head, so the theory is that break your head. Sometime I suggested to our Sarasvatī, that "You break your head and there will be no pain." So this theory is like that. Instead of mending... This is the lack of knowledge. Mūḍha. Mūḍha. The pains and pleasure... One man in the prison life, he is simply suffering so many pains and pleasure. There is no pleasure, simply pain. So he is trying to commit suicide.

So sometimes people do that, suicide. They think that "If I kill, if I commit suicide, then all these pains and pleasures will be finished," because he has no information that a body is an instrument to feel pains and pleasure. Actually, I, as the spirit soul, I am unattached to it. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan. Ātma-māyā. It is a creation of, temporary creation. So if I get out of this temporary creation and be situated in my own position, then there is no more pains and pleasure. It is simply pleasure. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to change the consciousness. Now I am conscious of this material combination, this body, mind Therefore I am feeling pains and pleasure. And as soon as I am situated in my original consciousness, that "I am Kṛṣṇa's; Kṛṣṇa's eternal servant I am, so let me engage in Kṛṣṇa's service," and then there is no more material pains and pleasure. It is not that A neophyte, when he is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is feeling the same pains and pleasure, but that is due to our past habit, consciousness. Just like aeroplane. You come down on the land. Sometimes there is dizziness. You think that "I am still flying." But there is no more flying. That is stopped. Similarly, one who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his material pains and pleasures has been stopped. But due to our past experience, sometimes we think, "I am still in pains and pleasure." This is due to our past experience. The same example again: just like the fan is running. You put off the switch; still, the fan is running. But actually it is not running. The running capacity has been stopped. But due to the, what is called?

Śyāmasundara: Momentum.

Prabhupāda: Momentum. It appears as if running. So a devotee, although sometimes it appears that he is in pains and pleasures, committing something nonsense, that is momentum. In the next verse in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said,

þsipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā

śāṣvac chāntiṁ nigacchati

kaunteya pratijānīhi

na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati

(BG 9.31)

Although we find in the neophyte devotee some bad behavior due to his past experience, so we should not take him as nondevotee. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ (BG 9.30). He is sādhu—if he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And the bad habits which are visible now, it will disappear. It will disappear. So we have to give chance because we see some bad habits of a devotee, we should not reject. We should give another chance. We should give another chance because he has taken the right thing, but to past behavior he appears to be again going to the māyā's clutches. So we should not reject, but we should give chance. One may take little more time to come to the standard, but we should give him chance. If he sticks to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, very soon all these defects will be disappearing. Kṣipraṁ bhavati dharmātmā. He will be completely a dharmātmā, a mahātmā. Why? Kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati: (BG 9.31) "Anyone who has taken seriously My lotus feet, seriously surrendered to Me, he will never be anxious. He will never be anxious, although sometimes it appears that he is coming down." So this should be our principle. We stick to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then everything will be all right in due course of time. So the varieties of life there is. That variety is actual variety.

Lecture on SB 2.9.14 -- Melbourne, April 13, 1972:

Prabhupāda: So this is not impersonal, the actual description of the spiritual world, all personal varieties. There are the bees, there are goddess of fortune, and followed by her associate, and there is service and so many things, all opulences, śrī. Śrīr yasya. Aiśvaryasya ṣriyaḥ yaśasaḥ. The definition of the Lord is given that He's full of beauties. In the Brahma-saṁhitā also, Lakṣmī. And not only one, all of them are lakṣmīs. The associates of Lakṣmī, the maidservants of Lakṣmī, they are also lakṣmīs. They are not ordinary women, just like Rādhārāṇī is the chief gopī and all Her young girl friends, they are also gopīs. They are of the same category. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). They are all expansion of Kṛṣṇa, pleasure potency. So this is the information of the Vaikuṇṭhaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana. So one should take advantage of this life. What we are gaining here by attachment? What we shall get here? The all rascaldom. There is nothing substantial. Therefore one should little risk, that "If there is some chance of entering such a immortal, eternal kingdom of God, why should I not take chance?" You should take chance at all risk in this life to enter into the nitya-līlā, nitya-līlā, eternal pastimes of the Lord.

That is advised by Nārada Muni to his disciple Vyāsadeva: "What you are writing, all these nonsense books? You..." What is called? Jugupsitam. Jugupsitam. He instructed Vyāsadeva that "Whatever literatures you have produced..." Means up to that time he produced Vedānta-sūtra. He wrote up to Vedānta-sūtra, which is considered to be the topmost philosophical thesis in the world, Vedānta-sūtra, all over the world, the Vedānta philosophy. So he finished that Vedānta-sūtra. Still, he was not happy. And his spiritual master Nārada chastised him, "What nonsense books you have written?" First of all he was not happy, so Nārada came, and he asked him that "Why you are not happy? You know everything, but why you are not happy?" So he submitted, "Yes, my master, I know everything, and I think I have done everything, writing all these books. But still, I am not happy. So why I am not happy, that you can tell because you are my master."

So, "Yes, I can tell you." And then he said that "You have labored so much for writing all these nonsense books, but you have not said anything of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore you are unhappy. Therefore I advise you that now you write one book which is simply the transaction of the Supreme Personality, nothing else, nothing of this material world, sacrificing, this religious, and this unreligious, 'this is good, this is bad,' nothing of the sort. Simply write about the pastimes of the Supreme Lord. Then you will be happy." Then he wrote Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. And when he wrote, began writing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he writes in the beginning, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: (SB 1.1.2) "All these cheating type of religious system, I kick it out, this ism, that ism. I kick out all them. It is this book, especially meant for paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satām, those who are simply paramahaṁsas. It is meant for them. It is not for the ordinary men. I have kicked out all the so-called religious system, dharma artha kāma." People are very much Nowadays they are not even for dharma or artha. They are simply kāma, sense gratification. Sense gratification because every one of us, we come here for sense gratification. The spirit soul is originally spiritual spark." Why he has come here?"—this question is sometimes raised. That is answered. We are reading. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan. It is a māyā. We cannot enjoy. It is māyā. We have created. "Can I not enjoy like Kṛṣṇa? Can I not become God?" This is māyā. This is māyā. Therefore we are reading this verse, ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasya... What is that?

Devotees: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ. The spiritual, spirit soul has no other business than to serve the Supreme Lord, but creating an illusion, he has come here, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā, just like creating a mentality and sleeping: "Oh, I have become king." That is not king. That is simply svapna, false. So this material world is simply a nightmare, that's all, hallucination. Ātma-māyām. It is nothing but a hallucination, but we have become so fool, we want to stick to it. We want to stick to it. In spite of so many instructions, so many literatures, still we want. The māyā is so strong. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ. Therefore one should take little risk in order to enter into the eternal life, blissful life. One should take a little risk. That is advised by Nārada. And the same instruction, while he was giving, that First of all he said, "All this nonsense, that jugupsitam: They are abominable. Because you are writing books, dharma artha kāma mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), so later on You are authority, Vyāsadeva. People will stick to this. And if even Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam (BG 18.66), 'You give up all this nonsense, you simply surrender,' they will not hear because you are writing so many nonsense books." He chastised him like that. Jugupsitam, this very word. Jugupsitam. "You are authority, so you have done such, so many nonsense books." He wrote Mahābhārata, he wrote Aṣṭadaśa-Purāṇa, he wrote, I mean to say, Upaniṣad, and after all, Vedānta-sūtra, all these books which are so highly recognized all over the world. Still, that was condemned, "But you have written all these nonsense books." Jugupsitam. "Because you are authority, they will stick to it." "Oh, here is."

Because in Upaniṣad the negating, that negation, negation of the material form... Therefore it is described in an impersonal form. These nonsense are sticking to that impersonal form. Impersonal—there is no form. Really, Veda says, apāni-pāda javano grahitā: "The Supreme Absolute Truth has no legs, has no hands, but He accepts whatever you offer." Now, how He accepts? He has no hand; then how He accepts? But they have no brain. They have no brain. When it is said that "He has no hand," it is said that "He has no hand like you." When he says that "He has no leg," it means that "He has no leg like you." If he has no hand, then how Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad aham aśnāmi bhakty-upahṛtam: (BG 9.26) "If I accept them"? If He is far away within the Goloka Vṛndāvana, goloka eva nivasaty akhilātmā (Bs. 5.37), but He has got such a hand-although He is living in Goloka Vṛndāvana, far, far away, He will immediately Whatever you offer, He will take. That kind of hand, not your three feet hand. If somebody offers me downstairs, "Prabhupāda, take this flower," but I am here. How can I take? But He can take. He can take. That is called apāni-pāda javano grahitā paśyaty acakṣuḥ. He can see. His eyes are not like this, that beyond this wall I cannot see anything. He can see everyone, what you are doing nonsense. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. As witness, He is seeing. He is within your heart. How you will hide it? Anumantā upadraṣṭā.

Philosophy Discussions

Philosophy Discussion on Hegel:

As soon as one engages himself fully in devotional service, he immediately becomes spiritualized. How the spiritual quality is defined. Actually everything is spirit but it is covered. Just like gold, gold is covered by some muddy dirt. So if you cleanse it, the heart, then immediately spiritualized. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). So our process is—that we will stress also—cleansing process, sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170). I am now thinking (I am) American, Indian. You are thinking (you are) American. This is false. This is false but as soon as you come to consciousness, "No, I am not American, I am Kṛṣṇa's. I am Kṛṣṇa's part and parcel." Then you are spiritual. The same thing remains intact but as soon as you come to the consciousness that I am Kṛṣṇa's, then you are spiritual. What is that verse?

ātma-māyām ṛte rājan

parasyānubhavātmanaḥ

na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ

svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā

Ātma-māyām ṛte, it is a māyām ṛte. Māyā, this spiritual and material conception is māyā; except māyā there is nothing. Na ghaṭetārtha-sam... Otherwise, except māyā there is no such thing as material. Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ. It is just like the example in Bhagavad-gītā, nice example, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Just like I am dreaming so many things, I am dreaming; there is nothing such thing, still I am dreaming. I am feeling that I am fallen in a dark well and I am now suffocating. But actually there is no well, there is no suffocation, but I'm thinking because I've fallen or I am absorbed in dream, therefore all these conceptions, material conceptions, māyā, exactly like dreaming. Dreaming, this is the best example. When one dreams he factually suffers, he is put into some dark place and he is trying to get out, he cannot get out; there is no such dark place, he has not fallen, everything is (indistinct). He is suffering, he is suffering, he is crying, "Save me." So actually there is nothing material. But due to our dreaming that I am separate from Kṛṣṇa, "I'm Mr. American, I'm Mr. Indian, I'm Mr. This, I have got this duty, I have got that duty." All this māyā. You have no other duty than to serve Kṛṣṇa because you are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, that's all. When that consciousness comes, then spiritual (indistinct). So you have to change the consciousness, that's all. (indistinct) Everything is spiritual.

Philosophy Discussion on Hegel:

Śyāmasundara: The Kant philosophy, and he took this idea from Plato, is that there is an ideal on which these temporary objects are representatives. For instance the idea of tableness is an abstract idea of perfection. It's represented before me in this table in a perverted form. This table represents the ideal, expresses the ideal, but it is not the ideal.

Prabhupāda: That we say, that this material world is perverted reflection of the spiritual world. This is reflection.

Śyāmasundara: They say an "image", everything is an image.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say that, that the same example, just like mirage. Mirage, there is no water but we see a vast sea, or big river is flowing. It is like that. Actually there is no river. No. This is going. This material world is like that. Just Śrīdhara Swami (said that) due to the factual position of the spiritual world, this illusory world appears to be true. Because there is real table.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: The table concept.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Because there is a real table, therefore I am considering this table. This is not table, this is wood. Somebody (may say), "This is not wood, but it was tree." All right, it is tree. Then what? It is not tree, it is seed. All right it is seed. No, it is not seed, it (indistinct) You see. Therefore it is perverted reflection. But there is a real table.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupāda: There is a real table. Therefore the whole material creation is a perverted reflection and people are enamored by it. People are taking, "This is real table. This is real body. This is real happiness. This is real country. This is real society."

Śyāmasundara: This is what Hegel says, that this is the real table, that these are real objects. They are not images of the real but they are themselves real. There's where...

Prabhupāda: Then he has not the idea what is real. What do you mean by real?

Śyāmasundara: This is a real fact, this table, that this is spirit itself.

Prabhupāda: This is not real fact. This is imitation of the real table. It is fact to a person who has no knowledge of the real. Because it will not exist; that, our reality means which will exist. Otherwise it is not reality.

Śyāmasundara: So this may be real for some time and then...

Prabhupāda: It is temporary, temporary. It is not real. It is some temporary manifestation. The same example, like dreaming; dreaming is not real but temporary hallucination, that's all. You cannot say this "dream-real". This word is used, svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Just like dream, it is very nice example. In dream everything appears to be real but it is not real, it is all false or temporary.

Śyāmasundara: So what I want to clarify is that you say...

Prabhupāda: He wants to say something.

Devotee: So actually we say there's a difference between reality and existing, even though it exists doesn't mean that it's real.

Prabhupāda: No, real means which exists eternally, that is real.

Devotee: But this exists only temporarily therefore it can't be classified as reality.

Prabhupāda: No, temporary, illusion we'll call it, reality means which exists eternally.

Devotee: That's the table on the spiritual platform.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There, Kṛṣṇa's abode, Kṛṣṇa's house, Kṛṣṇa's table, chair, furniture, they're all existing, ever-existing. Here they will not exist.

Śyāmasundara: So what is the distinction then between saying that spirit expresses itself in this object or the spirit is this object.

Prabhupāda: It is the expression of the energy of spirit. Everything is energy. Whatever is manifested, that is the energy of Kṛṣṇa. Thus one energy manifestation is eternal and another energy manifestation is temporary. Which is temporary manifestation, that is material, and which is eternal manifestation, that is spiritual.

Śyāmasundara: So you could say both, you could say this is made of spirit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, originally it is made of spirit in this sense, that Kṛṣṇa is whole spirit, and because it is Kṛṣṇa's energy, so factually it is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: Is this Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Or is Kṛṣṇa inside of this?

Prabhupāda: No, Kṛṣṇa... He's(?) Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: This is Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa.

Kīrtanānanda: That which is giving rise to your perception of something material is actually spirit. The cause of what you are perceiving is spirit. But what you are perceiving is material.

Prabhupāda: Just like gold. Now you have made an earring. You say it is earring but, it may be earring but it is gold. Another example is, just like earth, earth. So you may take dirt and make a pot. So, and a doll, so many things, varieties. So we say it is doll, it is pot, it is this, it is that, but that is also earth. Is it not?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And when it is broken, then it is again earth. In any condition it is earth.

Śyāmasundara: This pot and this brick, these are not images then, they are dirt, they are...

Prabhupāda: Then you make images. You make images, but when you make images, that is also earth. And when it is broken, that is also earth. And originally it is earth. Sarvam khalv idaṁ brahma. The three conditions: formless condition, form, and again, what it is called-merging. In three conditions it is earth. Aham evāsam evāgre, in the Bhāgavata Kṛṣṇa says, "I existed in the beginning of creation, I maintain the creation, and when the creation is broken, I exist."

Kīrtanānanda: But that's what the Māyāvādīs, they say that all of these forms, all form is māyā.

Prabhupāda: Yes, we say temporary, they say māyā.

Kīrtanānanda: So we also say that there is spiritual world full of form, and that is not-

Prabhupāda: Yes. That they do not know. That is their ignorance. We say wherefrom this form came, who gave this idea? The Vedānta says janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1), the origin, from the original source it comes.

Kīrtanānanda: So the question is that, these forms that are here, are they actually eternal forms?

Prabhupāda: No. There is eternal..., this is not eternal. This is imitation. Perverted reflection. Reflection is not eternal. As soon as the condition is gone, there is no reflection.

Śyāmasundara: He says that they are not eternal but that the interaction of forms is an eternal process, that one form interacts with another...

Prabhupāda: They cannot explain it. The real is that this form is not eternal, but there is an eternal form. Just like the water. The form of the water on the desert, that is not fact, neither it is eternal. But there is eternal water. Otherwise wherefrom I get this idea here it is water. There is water. Now the presentation of water in the desert, that may be false. The Māyāvādī philosophers they do not know.

Śyāmasundara: But if the universe is rational and everything has a purpose, then this temporary form is also spiritual because it has some kind of purpose.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and that we are utilizing, everything, for the purpose, to make the best use of bad bargain.

Śyāmasundara: Even if someone can't see it, isn't there a purpose?

Prabhupāda: Now why not? Everything can be seen. Without seeing, what is the...? Everything can be seen.

Śyāmasundara: Even if someone, there is someone outside who cannot see it and they're utilizing a car or some object, isn't that object also...

Prabhupāda: Why he cannot see? He's seeing. Why does he say that he cannot see? He's seeing car.

Śyāmasundara: He's seeing it but perhaps he doesn't have the knowledge of what it is.

Prabhupāda: That is different thing. But he's seeing.

Śyāmasundara: So supposing he has no knowledge what it is, but isn't that object still a spiritual...

Prabhupāda: Then he has to take knowledge from person who knows.

Śyāmasundara: My question is, is that object still not spiritual?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He knows or does not know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Fact is fact.

Śyāmasundara: It's still spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Any object.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He has no see. He has not eyes to see it, that it is spiritual. He has no knowledge.

Śyāmasundara: So God's plan is unfolding itself everywhere, whether we understand it or not.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He's unfolding Himself. In Bhagavad-gītā He is sending His representative for unfolding.

Śyāmasundara: But even in the material world, in the way water erodes the land and trees grow and die, like that. Even though there is no knowledge of the spiritual content aren't they still spiritual? Going on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Like the same example, just like the earth when it comes to form it is also earth, and if there is no form, that is also earth. The earth remains always. Therefore spiritual energy. The sky is sky, but when there is cloud you'll say there's no big sky, it has become shortened or something like that; you cannot see. So cloud comes, and if there is no cloud, a sky, sky is always there.

Kīrtanānanda: It is both, isn't it Śrīla Prabhupāda, it is both material and spiritual. In essence it is spiritual.

Prabhupāda: Essence is spiritual, that's it. But my imperfect vision makes it material.

Śyāmasundara: His idea, too, is that everything has a purpose, the whole universe is rational.

Prabhupāda: Certainly, certainly. Those who do not agree to accept this, just like so many rascal philosopher, there is no purpose of life, chance, they are rascals.

Śyāmasundara: But his idea is that to understand this reality or this truth is that one must examine all relationships of everything to each other.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are teaching. That original is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's expansion in energy is everything. Parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktiḥ. Just like heat and light; practically whole physical existence is heat and light. So heat and light, there is a fire wherefrom the heat and light comes. Similarly two energies, heat and light, the spiritual and material, they are emanating from the fire, Kṛṣṇa, and everything is made of heat and light, material (indistinct). So one who has got to see, one has got the eyes to see, that is the spiritual, he can see it. And when he hasn't got the eyes to see, he thinks material.

Śyāmasundara: Another way of looking is that Hegel considered that his predecessors were abstract philosophers, in other words they were isolating or severing from the whole into parts and that each part was static, not moving, but he saw that the truth is dynamic, it is always changing that these dynamic or that these isolated factors, he called them moments, momentums, that the total of moments was a moving force, that truth was actually dynamic and always changing, not static.

Prabhupāda: That we can understand from our personal self, that I am the soul, I am existing, and the bodily features changes, changes. Then it is changing, therefore it is material. And the spirit soul, it is existing in all conditions. That is the difference between spirit and matter. Hm.

Pradyumna: I wanted to ask you if the difference between the realisation of what... Everything is spiritual in that sense, but some things have more of an effect when we can see everything spiritually. What is the difference between the Ganges water and the ordinary water to someone who doesn't know that the Ganges water is spiritual? He doesn't have the realisation of it but still he gets spiritual benefit.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one who does not know... Kṛṣṇa, He makes the difference between Ganges water and ordinary water. Because we are giving Ganges water important, but because it is coming out, flowing from the toe of Kṛṣṇa. So, as soon as the other water, it is offered to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, then how it becomes other water? It becomes Ganges water. The one who hasn't got to see, by touching to the lotus feet, this Ganges water will form. So any water when it is touched in Kṛṣṇa's feet, it is Ganges water.

Pradyumna: You write in Bhagavad-gītā that by using something in Kṛṣṇa's service it regains it's spiritual qualities.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it. We have to see how you can becomes Ganges water. Why you give importance to the Ganges water? Because it is flowing from the toe of Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu. So anything comes in contact with Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet, it will be Ganges water. Just like we are offering water, generally in India the Ganges water is used for worshiping. Then the worshiping of Kṛṣṇa will stop here in America? Does it mean so? We create Ganges water. As soon as it is touched with Kṛṣṇa, it is Ganges water.

Philosophy Discussion on Henri Bergson:

Prabhupāda: He does not know. At the present moment I am fallen, so even if I go to my original position, there is chance of again falling down. Otherwise, how I became fallen? Just like a child once falls and again stands up, he has got chance of again falling down. You cannot say, "Now he has stood up, he'll not fall again." That is not possible.

Devotee: The different kinds of bodies, they're just different phases of the illusion, because the real, spiritual body is always the same, it's not changing.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is called sanātana, eternal.

Atreya Ṛṣi: But Prabhupāda, the process of realization, the process of reaching up to perfection, is the only creative process.

Prabhupāda: (break) You are creating disturbance, I say, "Get out." (indistinct)

Śyāmasundara: He says that the world is a machine for the making of gods. The world...

Prabhupāda: Another nonsense. Another nonsense. (indistinct) Uncover it. (Sanskrit). A rascal is beautiful so long as he does not speak. If he remains silent, then he looks very beautiful. But as soon as he speaks nonsense, then it is (indistinct).

Śyāmasundara: He means it, in a sense that it's a training ground, the world is a training ground... (break) ... to make ourselves... (break)

Prabhupāda: ...will not die. But you have forgotten that you are eternal. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasya..., what is that?

Devotee: Parasyānubhavātmanaḥ.

Prabhupāda: Explain that verse. Ātma-māyām ṛte rājan parasyānubhavātmanaḥ, na ghaṭeta...

Devotee: Na ghaṭetārtha-sambandhaḥ...

Prabhupāda: ...artha-sambandhaḥ svapna-draṣṭur ivāñjasā. Actually there is no bewilderment (indistinct) spirit. I am eternal spirit soul, eternal servant. Just like the (indistinct) but it is somehow or other (indistinct) for a time it is covered by the clouds it appears moving. (break) Actually it is not moving. (indistinct) we see that the moon is moving. So we are spirit soul eternally. Just like I am lying down on my bed, bit I am dreaming I have gone to Pacific Ocean and being drowned and so many things, you have come to save me, and so many troublesome things. But actually there is no Pacific Ocean, nothing of the sort. It is simply my dream. So this temporary covering of the body is just like a dream. As soon as you come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, everything is finished.

Devotee: In the dream, they are also suffering. So in the same way it is actually happening in a subtle form in your dreams. It is actually happening.

Prabhupāda: Yes, and it has no actual value, but when it is happening and I am under dream, I am thinking it is all actual. Actually it has no value. Therefore it is called māyā. Māyā means which has no real existence, but it appears.

Śyāmasundara: Last night you said that what is the meaning of the word "nothing." That māyā means "nothing"?

Prabhupāda: You can say like that. Nothing is appearing like something. But we don't say nothing. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they say nothing. We say temporary, just like cloud, you cannot say it is nothing.

Devotee: "Not this."

Prabhupāda: Like cloud. Cloud has appeared and it will go; therefore you can say it is nothing. But we say it is not nothing, but it is temporary.

Śyāmasundara: "That which is not." You said that māyā is "that which is not."

Prabhupāda: No. That which is not, but as you are seeing it is not that.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, as soon as you see it, it changes.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like you are thinking that "I am this body." Most people, all people, they think "I am this body." That is not.

Devotee: The body is there, it's just not...

Prabhupāda: Temporary. Temporary, for a few years, for a few hours, for few minutes, that's all. Therefore we cannot say "nothing." The exact word is "temporary." What is that? You wanted to speak something?

Devotee: I was just curious about dreams. Sometimes (indistinct).

Prabhupāda: These are false.

Devotee: Did you say once that sometimes Kṛṣṇa will let you work off some of your karma in a dream (indistinct)?

Prabhupāda: So whatever it may be, that is all temporary.

Devotee: Just like Bergson, his idea of the (indistinct) of immortality, does that mean (indistinct), scientific, technological revolution.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, I think so. His idea is that evolution, as it passes through different bodies, the life force, and that eventually on this planet, man will become immortal.

Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: That life forms are improving more and more and and more, until some day they'll improve to be perfect.

Prabhupāda: After (indistinct), they are living sixty years, and they think (indistinct) sixty years (indistinct). Here in this material, either sixty years or hundred sixty years or millions of sixty years or trillions of sixty years (indistinct). One who is living for sixty years, for him millions of years means immortal.

Śyāmasundara: So we took up here on the tape. We already have the rest of this on tape. So should we finish for today?

Prabhupāda: Yes.