Psychology (Conversations 1977)

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1977 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 2, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Yes. God is great. We are small. The small business is to serve the great. That is going on everywhere.

Dr. Patel: And mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja means "You do work according to My dictate. That is My śaraṇam."

Prabhupāda: This is śaraṇam, not that you remain independent from śaraṇam. No.

Dr. Patel: That means you obey the infallible laws of God.

Prabhupāda: God says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. This is dharma.

Dr. Patel: They are thinking of psychological, sir. If you think of a particular thing, then you become merge in that. Practically your mind becomes so... That is how the researches are carried out by (indistinct). You become mad on that. You become mad on Kṛṣṇa. You get...

Prabhupāda: It is natural to serve God, to remain faithful to Him. This is natural. Artificially you are trying to be independent. This is the Māyāvāda... Still, they are trying to become God himself.

Dr. Patel: Sir, after first I met you, some previous time, I made an extensive study of both the sides of Vaiṣṇavism as well as the (indistinct). I think they are falling short of the final (indistinct). Once they say that they are in Brahman, but there is Para-brahman also. That Brahman is nothing but a jyoti of Para-brahman. That they forget.

Prabhupāda: That means knowledge.

Dr. Patel: And I think, sir, even Śaṅkarācārya has not meant that we must be short of that. He was also worshiping, was he not? He was worshiping Para-brahman.

Prabhupāda: He has given a commentary on the Bhagavad-gītā. In the beginning he says nārāyaṇaḥ paraḥ, "Nārāyaṇa is transcendental."

Room Conversation -- January 7, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: Rajaneesh. Rajneesh

Dr. Patel: Rajneesh calls himself Bhagavān, that man.

Prabhupāda: He also says, "Bhagavān."

Dr. Patel: He's doing a sort of mass hypnotism to my mind. Psychologically I try to analyze him.

Prabhupāda: Without analyzing, we take him as rogue. (laughter) That's all.

Dr. Patel: You... I, being a scientist, try to analyze. This is my nature.

Hari-śauri: Analysis is our nature, he said.

Dr. Patel: I try to analyze you also, sir. I try to analyze you.

Prabhupāda: No, our analysis is..., analytical process, is very simple.

Dr. Patel: (laughing) I did it. And when I tried...

Trivikrama: What is that process, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: The process: if one is not kṛṣṇa-bhakta, he's a rogue.

Hari-śauri: Duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, narādhama...

Prabhupāda: Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15). Bas, finished analysis. As soon as we see that he is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, he must be a rogue. That's all. Duṣkṛtina, sinful. That's all.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: But we have got parents' organization also.

Rāmeśvara: Now we do. Anyway, they're using this law against us.

Prabhupāda: That they will do. They will do their best. We have to do our best. That's all.

Rāmeśvara: They say, "This would enable the court to remove the young person from the temple for medical examination and evaluation by cult-knowledgeable psychiatrists and psychologists." In other words, deprogramming. "This is the best thing to do. The media would report it..."

Prabhupāda: No, no. But one psyciatrist may give one verdict, but other psychiatrist may give another verdict. Then how the court will decide?

Rāmeśvara: Because in these temporary guardianship cases, the court is already against us in many places.

Prabhupāda: But... Against may be, but so far the decision of the psychiatrist, we can present our psychiatrist.

Rāmeśvara: There's no equal time given. It's one-sided only.

Prabhupāda: That means in the name of justice, injustice is going on.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. This law is unconstitutional. I mentioned that there is a group of lawyers who are now organizing a committee nationwide to defend us, and they're going to prove that this law should be changed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the right cause. Yes.

Discussion on Deprogrammers -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: (chuckles) That is our opportunity. The governor has invited.

Jagadīśa: In the Kṛṣṇa book, after Kṛṣṇa told Rukmiṇī that He would have to leave her...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Jagadīśa: ...then she was speaking to Him and saying that "You say that no one can understand Your activities. And also no one can understand the activities of Your devotee." So nobody knows what we're doing. They all put some psychological name, but they can't grasp the essence of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So they're afraid.

Rāmeśvara: One of their big charges is that when we go out and distribute our books we are very aggressive, and therefore it is a sign that we are not actually religious.

Prabhupāda: Every salesman must be aggressive. That is a qualification.

Rāmeśvara: They say we are interfering with the right of the person. He doesn't want to speak to us, but we insist that he speak to us.

Prabhupāda: That is salesman's qualification. Nobody is dying for our book, but if we can create market for our book, that is our qualification.

Rāmeśvara: So then they will say, "Then that means you are not a religion. You're simply a business."

Prabhupāda: Yes. From business side... Religion means we are expert in every way. We can cheat also very nicely, which you cannot do. That is religion, expert in everything. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇaḥ. And Kṛṣṇa says that "Amongst the cheaters, I am the greatest cheat."

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That is very good.

Rāmeśvara: ...the biggest professors and theologians have organized now a nationwide committee to defend us.

Prabhupāda: Very good. This is Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Rāmeśvara: And also the lawyers and psychologists are also organizing in their own fields nationwide committees just to defend us.

Prabhupāda: It is so much mercy from Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted all these things. Unless there is... Kṛṣṇa became important when He killed so many demons, not lying down on the lap of Mother Yaśodā. And while He was on the lap of Mother Yaśodā, from that day He began to kill. He began to kill. And there was attack. Therefore Kṛṣṇa became the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So even Kṛṣṇa was not exempted, what to speak of us. Prahlāda Mahārāja was not exempted. As soon as you speak of God, this opposition will come. Jesus Christ was crucified. So they are so kind they have not crucified me or my men. (laughs) Otherwise you have to expect all these things. Nityānanda Prabhu was personally injured. So these are the... Haridāsa Ṭhākura was beaten in twenty-two bazaars. This task is like that.

Rāmeśvara: They are getting everyone in America to ask the question, "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" Because of all their false propaganda, everyone is asking, "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa? What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?"

Prabhupāda: And that is our triumph. They're chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Arrival of BBT Manager -- January 9, 1977, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: No, outside scholars...

Hari-śauri: And from all the scholars and professors and everything.

Prabhupāda: "It is bona fide thinking and you are checking."

Hari-śauri: What complicates it is they get ex-cult members to come and testify that "Yes, I was psychologically kidnapped. I was made into a robot just to think of God."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: So the whole thing's become a very...

Prabhupāda: We have to defend in our way. (end)

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Rāmeśvara: It is not physical. It is just mental.

Prabhupāda: Well, physical, mental... That's right. You are so intelligent that you make distinction between physical and mental. They're all manifestation(?). You are so intelligent. Without mental, is there any physical? Then why you engage psychologist? There may be physical madman. Why you take him at psychologist? Why? Now you're discriminating mental and physical. If mental has nothing to do with physical, then why you employ psychologist to cure a madman from physical violence? You are so fool. Without mental pain, there is no physical pain. Without mental derangement, there is no physical disturbance. Who commits suicide? Who commits murder unless he's mentally deranged? You are very intelligent, that you want to make differentiation between physical and mental. There is differentiation. But cure physically.(?) Naturally they'll become sound. Otherwise why so many psychologists, psychiatrists, are employed in your country?

Rāmeśvara: It is a booming business, big business.

Prabhupāda: Our business is sai vai manaḥ kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ (SB 9.4.18). First of all is mentality. Man-manā mad-bhakto. Mental cure, then physically devotee. "Always think of Me." This is the cure, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. Beginning: always think of Kṛṣṇa. This is the treatment. It is proved. Mentally he'll be cured. And then physically after. Nice (indistinct). They do not know how things are happening. (japa) Thinking, feeling, willing. First of all thinking, then feeling, then willing, then working. (break) ...and spending for military strength. They are not performing yajña, so how there will be rainfall? There will be warfare, devastation. Most rubbish civilization, modern misleading, soul-killing. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). Very difficult to live with them. Still, we have to do this Kṛṣṇa's business. So we have to do our business. Let the dogs bark on. We don't care for it. If we remain sincere to Kṛṣṇa, that is our victory, not the result. Karmaṇy evādhikāras te mā phaleṣu kadācana. We have to act according to direction of Kṛṣṇa, that much. We want to see good result. Even there is no good result, we don't mind. We must be sincere to Kṛṣṇa that "We have done our best." That's all. Without cheating Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. As servant, we shall not cheat the master. Result, no result—that depends on Kṛṣṇa. We should not be sorry if there is not result. Never mind. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "I have brought to Benares hari-nāma, but here they are full of Māyāvādīs. So if it is not sold, all right, I shall take it back." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. So we should not be anxious whether the things are sold or not. But we must do our best canvassing work: "Please take it." That is our duty. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break)

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: You rascal, you have nothing to do. You sleep. Napoleon used to sleep for one hour, two hour. He was such a busy man. So they are so busy in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have no time to sleep. Every great man does not sleep very much. The lazy men... (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) Acchā. Sleeping is simply waste of time. So this is... If he does not sleep more, it is a sign of greatness.

Rāmeśvara: But they have got these crazy fools in the name of psychologists. And these psychologists...

Prabhupāda: We have got our psychologists.

Rāmeśvara: These psychologists say that if there is a lack of sleep, then the mind becomes very susceptible to another person's ideas. You can get control of him by depriving him of sleep. Just like they say... There was a war once in the country of Korea between America and China, and the prisoners, the Americans, were captured and put into these prison camps, and the Chinese tried to convert them to Communism by lack of sleep and lack of food, torture. In this way, they say, this is widely accepted that if a person has too little sleep or too little food, then you can break his will and change his life by force.

Prabhupāda: So that is all right. Then you break. Now he's quite fit for your conversion. He's now weak. You convert him to your ideas. (laughter) We have made the ground.

Rāmeśvara: That's what they want! They want us...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you kidnap? You say.

Conversation on Train to Allahabad -- January 11, 1977, India:

Prabhupāda: Europe? Germany...

Hari-śauri: Germany is bad.(?)

Jagadīśa: North America would be... South America?

Rāmeśvara: Prabhupāda, if you did come to America, the best idea is if you went to a farm like the New York farm and just made that your headquarters. And the devotees could visit. They could come and see you. Otherwise, the country in Pennsylvania is very beautiful in the spring and the summer, very peaceful.

Hari-śauri: New Vrindaban you could go when the palace is done.

(long conversation at end of tape about deprogramming and psychology—Rāmeśvara talks most of the time—can be transcribed if the tape is slowed down and the train noise is reduced.) (end)

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Rāmeśvara: But they have never used it against us. But now they have started. One devotee, a girl from Berkeley temple who is a very big book distributor... Sometimes she could collect five, six hundred dollars in one day. She was just kidnapped—by order of the court. They have a psychologist who listens to the parents' description, and on the basis of that secondhand report the psychologist...

Prabhupāda: No, kidnapping, that is already law there. If one is minor or without the permission of the parent, with police force she or..., can be kidnapped.

Rāmeśvara: But this is not for minors. This is for adults.

Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh.

Rāmeśvara: This is a new thing, that the psychologist will write some report to the court that "Based on the information I have received, this person is not mentally competent. Therefore this person must be put under the guardianship of their parents even if they are an adult. Otherwise they will harm themselves." So in this way the psychologists...

Prabhupāda: But any psychologist will give report or anyone can...

Room Conversation -- January 19, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Then what to do?

Rāmeśvara: Well we have... I mentioned we have got these lawyers who want to start a nationwide organization to fight this law for us. So the head of this group is in San Francisco...

Prabhupāda: Now, the... Externally, it appears that anyone can be kidnapped simply by the certificate of the psychologist.

Rāmeśvara: Yes. That is the real point, that this is like Nazi Germany. This is insane. So because it is so anti-American, then many people who would not normally connect themselves with our movement are now coming forward to help us.

Prabhupāda: Yes, they must. Otherwise the freedom is lost. Anyone can be kidnapped.

Rāmeśvara: That is what they are realizing, that this may not stop at just Hare Kṛṣṇa. They can kidnap anyone. That's our propaganda to get support.

Prabhupāda: Just like emergency.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Hari-śauri: In Russia they do that. When they don't like someone, they put him in a mental home.

Rāmeśvara: That was that whole article I brought from page one of L.A. Times, that how they have made this legal. And now they have got tax exemption. So now it's going to increase. For the next year it's going to increase, because they're going to get a lot of money from the families as tax write-offs.

Room Conversation -- January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Conflict is already there. Just like they're opposing.

Rāmeśvara: But I mean actual destruction of their culture, their...

Prabhupāda: Now they are trying to destroy us. And we are trying to destroy them. The conflict is already there. And this is now psychological fight. And then there will be actual fight. And we must take part in that fight.

Rāmeśvara: We will be the only ones who have any vision what to do after the war.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got clear vision. We are not putting any theory. We are always presenting fact, and that is materializing. Just like we started this farm. It is materializing gradually. It is not yet fully organized; still, there is hope that it will give peace to the people. There is sufficient hope.

Hari-śauri: Is our goal to actually establish Vedic principles back into society again at large?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Rāmeśvara: Of course.

Prabhupāda: That will be Satya-yuga. Again the Vedic principles will be established after finishing this Kali-yuga. And that is Satya-yuga. That is going on. Just after summer, there is winter. There is... After winter, there is summer.

Rāmeśvara: But this is extraordinary. Lord Caitanya's movement, the ten thousand years of His movement, that is a special exception for the Kali-yuga.

Morning Walk -- January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Bhāgavata: It is all right.

Hari-śauri: You said in that article in the BTG that women's liberation means that they get more exploited.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The giving them bluff that "You become liberated" means "We shall exploit you, young girls." This is the idea behind. Because the karmīs, they want sex, young girls, and they get energy to work. The Europeans, Americans, they work so hard. They get energy from new, new girls. This is psychology, Therefore they work like hogs and dogs. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Because the hog has no restriction, either mother, sister, or anyone, "Come on." Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājām..., kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). This civilization is for the hogs, to take energy by sex with mother, sister, and anyone, and work hard. It is stated in the Bhāgavata. I have not manufactured. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). And here is the civilization. Tapo divyam. Be brahmacārī, undergo austerities and rectify your, this conditioned life, birth and death. This is human civilization. Why you are under birth and death? One life remain brahmacārī and solve all the question. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti (BG 4.9). Teach them, these rascals—they are accusing, "brainwashing"—that this is civilization. It is not civilization to work hard like hogs and dogs and have sex enjoyment. Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Bhāgavata: Here is a restaurant, and they're selling meat. On the one hand they're supposed to be protecting the animal, and on the other hand they are slaughtering and feeding people meat.

Prabhupāda: Protect the animal? This is not protecting. This is another slaughterhouse.

Hari-śauri: This is slow slaughter.

Room Conversation -- January 24, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: That Ananta Vāsudeva, my Godbrother, he printed so many Gosvāmī literatures, but it was not successful.

Satsvarūpa: Even when I went to the convention in America, one convention, this woman professor, they were all excited. She has just translated Vidagdha-mādhava. But she had no understanding. She was talking about what the rasa is and Rādhārāṇī, but it's all like psychology or sex literature.

Prabhupāda: That's all. They say, "Sex religion. Religious perfection through sex." That is their idea. That Rajneesh is doing that. Rajneesh?

Hari-śauri: Yeah.

Satsvarūpa: Oh, yeah.

Prabhupāda: And Freud also.

Hari-śauri: All of them.

Prabhupāda: Hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana... Caitanya Mahāprabhu said this sex is the more dangerous than drinking poison for person who are going to advance in spiritual understanding. And they are talking—"Sex is the way of perfection." Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, hā hanta hā hanta viṣa-bhakṣana apy asādhu. If one takes poison, that is criminal. So this sex indulgence in devotional life is more dangerous than poison-taking, criminality. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's... But the sahajiyās, they are taking that through sex their life... What Gosvāmī? Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa. Jayadeva Gosvāmī, Candidāsa, they read, and they say, "Oh, through sex one can achieve the highest." They publicly say in Vṛndāvana. "I am Kṛṣṇa, and parakīya rasa. You have to select one woman who is not your wife, kept wife, parakīya."

Room Conversation -- January 26, 1977, Puri:

Bhāgavata: Even in India.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Why you say, speak India or in England? The human intelligence is the same. There is no change. They have made like this: "East," "West" and "England," and... The psychology is the same. The ass is the same. The camel is the same. The dog is the same. We are talking of these dogs. Do you think that in Europe the dog is different from Indian dog? (laughs) They have created another problem. But we take: "You are all dogs. Either you be Indian or England or German, you are, after all, after dog. Your mentality is dog." They have created that "Indian dog is better than the English dog" or "English dog is better than German." What is better? It is dog. You are doglike and hankering after some job in America and amongst Europeans. The Indians are all doing that, the same education. Recently for a post of five hundred men there were three lakhs of applications. This is education. And you'll find uneducated Indian, still he's independent. You will find in Calcutta especially we have seen. Yes. In the morning they'll purchase a bag of potato. Say, he invests twenty rupees. Nowadays he'll sit down in a corner and make two rupees' profit. He invests twenty rupees, and he gets twenty-two. He's satisfied, poor man. Then in the, say, ten to twelve he'll purchase some dāl. He'll go home to home. He'll make another two rupees' profit. In the evening he'll take some kerosene oil, and he'll sell. Evening everyone requires kerosene oil. He'll make another two rupees. So he's illiterate. He makes six rupees' profit, five rupees' profit, and if he can, ten rupees' profit. And takes some chana cho(?), some peanuts, sit down. In this way he's independently earning five to ten rupees. And educated? He's just like dog—"Give me job"—and unemployed and eating at the cost of father or welfare activities, welfare department, and moving like dog. Just see practically. The uneducated, he's earning because he knows that "If I go with application, what education I have got? Nobody will like me." He's hopeless in that way. "So let me try in my own way." He's earning ten rupees. And the other man, he's starving and taking help from the government, eating at the cost of father. This is education. Otherwise he is becoming hippie. Is that education? And in the Vedic system—education for the brāhmaṇa, how to learn to be truthful, how to control senses, how to become educated in Vedic knowledge. It is for brāhmaṇa. Bas, education, a few men selected. Kṣatriya, he has to learn how to fight: "Go. Fight.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Quarantine. Simply by thinking that "I shall not be allowed to go out of this room..." It is not a room; it is a big house, but still, I was feeling uncomfortable: "How is that? I shall not be free to go out." And that three days was actually suffering to me, "I cannot go out of the door." Simply by feeling this. I do not do practically. I sit down. But if I feel, "No, I cannot go out of this room," that's a great suffering. Whole day, I am sitting here. That's a fact. But I have got this intelligence that "I can go out as I like." But if you say that "You cannot go out," then it is a great suffering, psychologically. So creation or no creation, there is suffering. Rather, when there is creation it is less suffering, because he's mad, so he's engaged in some way. (laughs) He's thinking, "It is happiness." Eating, sleeping, sex is there. That is going on. That is māyā. Therefore this creation is another mercy of Kṛṣṇa. That I was reading this night. One creation, so many millions of years... There is calculation. One Brahmā's day, twelve hours, you cannot calculate. Sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). One yuga—forty-three hundred thousand years—one yuga, thousand times. Forty-three hundred thousand years equal to one yuga. Such thousand times. That is Brahmā's twelve hours. Then another twelve hours, night. That is also another trouble, when Brahmā's night. Everything merge into water, pralaya-payodhi-jale **. Not all the planet. At least half the universe plunge into water. This earthly planet and up to Svargaloka everything is inundated.

Gurukṛpā: And then it stays there until the next day.

Prabhupāda: Then next day means so many millions of years. That is practically half-annihilation. In this way, a short annihilation, short creation, it will go until Brahmā dies.

Hari-śauri: That description of Brahmā receiving knowledge through the heart, is that at the beginning of every day, or is that just at the beginning of the creation of the universe?

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: That is my duty. You are trying to brain, my brainwash; I am trying yours. That is going on. That is the tussle. You are trying your best. It is a wrestling. You are trying your strength; I am trying my strength. That is... Otherwise where there is fight? There is no question of fight. You don't agree with me; I don't agree with you. You have got right to not agree with me; I have got right not to agree with you. Now let us settle.

Hari-śauri: Well, the thing Rāmeśvara Mahārāja was saying was that they're bringing all these psychiatrists and psychologists in to make so many statements.

Prabhupāda: Let them bring. We have got our own psychiatrists.

Hari-śauri: He was saying in order to defeat them, we have to bring in other psychiatrists and psychologists.

Prabhupāda: The psychiatrists mean... Do you mean to say whatever they will say, we have to accept?

Satsvarūpa: Well, they're considered authorities.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Satsvarūpa: The foolish public considers them authorities of behavior and the mind.

Prabhupāda: Then everyone, a psychiatrist's recommendation. Even a sane man can be proved that he's a madman by the recommendation of psychiatrist.

Room Conversation -- January 27, 1977, Puri:

Prabhupāda: Then everyone, a psychiatrist's recommendation. Even a sane man can be proved that he's a madman by the recommendation of psychiatrist.

Gurukṛpā: Yes.

Gargamuni: Yes, but how can a psychologist judge a religion? That's not his field. They have to bring in scholars whose field is religion.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then those who are supporting us, our books, they are also.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have many witnesses.

Prabhupāda: They are also madmen.

Hari-śauri: So many big professors.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: Dr. Harvey Cox.

Prabhupāda: They have to be dismissed by the government from the post. "Why you are keeping so many madmen as big, big...?"

Satsvarūpa: Yes. Those who have supported us, then they're also madmen.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- January 28, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: It is like that.

Pṛthu-putra: ...according to your desire.

Prabhupāda: It is like that.

Pṛthu-putra: This is psychological...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: ...conclusion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Pṛthu-putra: But an actual person came one day to the temple to a boy.

Prabhupāda: The same, same thing. Where is that actual person?

Pṛthu-putra: Well, it was a person, an old lady who come like this, astrologer

Prabhupāda: Ordinar... He came eye to eye? Or dream?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes, a person came, person.

Satsvarūpa: No. They're saying it's not a dream state but actual manifestation. Just like a demigod comes, they are being visited by...

Morning Walk -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Jaya. (break)

Satsvarūpa: You were asking yesterday what are some of the charges that the opposing party makes against us. That's another one, that we follow absolute authority, your authority and also in the temples, that the temple president or leaders, they have authority, and this is not healthy psychology, that we should...

Prabhupāda: Why you come to pose your authority? If authority is not good, then why do you come to instruct your authority? Hm? The same thing, eh, change from one authority to another authority.

Satsvarūpa: But I don't say you have to accept me absolutely as...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you speak nonsense then, if I haven't got to accept you? What is the use of speaking all nonsense? If nobody accepts you, then why do you talk nonsense? Somebody's selling something, and if he says, "Don't purchase it," then what is the use of... (laughs) All contradiction. After all, they are nonsense.

Satsvarūpa: They think that by surrendering to the spiritual master, if many people do this, it will be very dangerous because they won't think for themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But you ask to surrender to you, so why shall I not surrender to my spiritual master? What is the use of changing surrendering?

Satsvarūpa: Well, at least if we don't have absolute authority, I may tell you something and if it's not good, you don't have to follow me.

Room Conversation -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Pṛthu-putra: ...sheik. And they say that when the sheik is teaching them the spiritual understanding from Koran, they can have..., he's like the link between God and themself, and they can have direct contact with God from inside. So... And they say what Muhammad said, that was no prophet after him. So they always asking from which prophet we are following. So one day I told Caitanya Mahāprabhu. And he accept it more or less because I explained to this person... He was a professor in Cairo University. He was a Sufist himself, so he was much more open than the regular Muslim. And I explained to him that Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared according to the time and circumstances to preach love of God. And he understood it, but he just didn't know Caitanya Mahāprabhu. So he said, "Then it's very nice. I can try to take knowledge of your philosophy," and he took the Gītā. He has the Gītā with him. So whenever I come back, he tell me, I always can go and give some discourses in the University, in his class. So I gave some discourses in universities, but sometimes I had to use some tricks. Like for example, once I gave a discourse in psychology department, explaining to them how the yoga system can bring you to different state of consciousness. And when I hint to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they were a little bit wondering what it is. Because unfortunately, due to their political situation, always in war with Israel and all these things, they're little bit...

Prabhupāda: Still war going on?

Pṛthu-putra: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (break) Oh. In the dictionary it is clearly stated, "God the Supreme Being." So He's a being, but supreme. And what are the signs of supremacy? One must be very rich, very famous, very strong, very learned. In this way analyze. So God means one who is in possession of all these things, all the reputation, all the beauty. That is God. On this point discuss. Now, who is God, that is to be found. But this is the position of God. Try to convince them.

Room Conversation with Svarupa Damodara -- January 30, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: This is wanted.

Hari-śauri: It's like an encyclopedia. (laughing)

Prabhupāda: Three big scientists' working. (laughter)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ah... Rūpānuga Prabhu is writing an article. This is all about this life and matter mainly. And there will be an article by Rūpānuga Prabhu called the..., from psychology. He said the..., some sort nature of consciousness from psychological point of view.

Prabhupāda: He was a student of psychology?

Pradyumna: Yes. Rūpānuga was...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. And...

Prabhupāda: Our Girirāja also.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Psychology is very important.

Prabhupāda: Girirāja can also write one article.

Room Conversation -- February 3, 1977, Bhuvanesvara:

Prabhupāda: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.

Hari-śauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just... They're in ignorance.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrels, the same, the same. So why men should be different?

Hari-śauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hari-śauri: On national basis.

Prabhupāda: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.

Hari-śauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always...

Prabhupāda: Simple.

Hari-śauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.

Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: I could understand that. Therefore I said, "No, I am quite..." (laughs) They were arranging for my brain operation, very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This brain thing now, another thing they have done. One of the things they do now in the hospitals is they give this shock treatment on the brain.

Brahmānanda: They put electricity into the brain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The deprogrammers are using this. They call it "psychological readjustment," and they put electrical wires...

Prabhupāda: Yes, they put some machine in my head.

Brahmānanda: Well, that was for testing the brain waves. But this way, they put electric current into the brain...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And burn part of the brain, destroy the brain. One girl in our temple in New York, her father is the owner of Financed Foods, which is a very big food market chain like A P supermarkets, very big, and her father owns it. So she... When she was young or before joining, she was a hippie. So her father didn't like that she was a hippie, so he had her put in the mental institution, and for 120 days in a row every day they gave her these shock treatments, and now she cannot remember hardly anything. When we talk to her she is just like, almost like a vegetable. I mean to say she cannot function as a normal person because her brain has been destroyed. Her father was trying to make her normal. Still, she has become a devotee. Now her father has again called her, telling her that he wants to have her go to the hospital to make her more "sane." He's destroyed his daughter, but he doesn't see that. I don't know if I told you about the person in Texas. Did I tell that story?

Evening Darsana -- February 15, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Killed his own son because he was smoking marijuana. He couldn't stand that the boy was smoking marijuana. Then after killing him he went to the police and turned himself in. So he came before the judge, woman judge, and he said that "I could not help it. This boy is my son, and look what he was doing. It is abominable. I had to kill him." And the judge said, "Yes, I can understand your feelings. It was intolerable." And she let the man go without one day jail sentence. No reprimand even. So this is the thing that is starting to happen now, that they are lobbying in the Congress in the United States to pass laws that if someone is abnormal, then the parents should have the right to commit him to psychological treatments. Even the child may be fifty years old and the parent may be seventy years old, if the parents think that child is not sane, then they have the right to get the child committed. So this is being passed in a couple of states, and already in California...

Prabhupāda: This is very dangerous.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One of our devotees in California was kidnapped out of the airport. She was distributing books in the airport in San Francisco, and because the court gave an order to the parents that "For thirty days you can take your daughter and commit her," so they have brought her to Arizona, where they have a special center set up for deprogramming, legal psychological tests. So for thirty days they ran these... They did some... We don't know what's going on there, some horrible things. Now the girl has sent a letter, and it showed that she is no longer in a devotional attitude. She said, "I'm very glad that I was rescued. Otherwise I would have been made to collect money all my life for your society, and now I'm saved from this."

Prabhupāda: She had been dictated to write like that.

Morning Room Conversation -- February 16, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Profession.

Hari-śauri: One of my friends was considering, "Shall I..." He had come to a point where he was thinking, "Now I'll either become a police officer or I'll become a priest." But he couldn't quite make his mind up.

Prabhupāda: In our college days we read one book. That was our textbook. It is a story, that a boy was meant for church and he fell in love with a girl. That is the psychology. Cloister and the Hearth. What is the cloister?

Hari-śauri: Inner sanctuary.

Prabhupāda: And hearth? Home.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Home.

Prabhupāda: That book was named Cloister and Hearth. So get Bombay finished very quickly and book-printing, stock, propaganda. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ...society is growing on that principle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This I want to increase more and more. No money in the bank. In the books. And as soon as there will be stock of book, it has to be sold. Otherwise you will starve. (chuckling) That I want.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will force the book sales to increase. The manager...

Prabhupāda: You may take it as business or whatever you like. I am not taking anything. You are selling five to six lakhs daily?

Room Conversation -- February 18, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: If it is legal, what can I say?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's... This is their new tactic now. This is their new tactic, that they're getting the court permission.

Prabhupāda: Then Americans' liberty is gone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why the lawyers and others are very alarmed, the intellectuals, 'cause they're seeing it is becoming like Russia.

Ādi-keśava: They're saying now that psychological freedom is more important in the law than religious freedom.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, if the law helps to kidnap, then what you can do?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that just now there was a meeting of the five hundred leading rabbis of the Jewish faith in favor of deprogramming, because they're very alarmed that the young men and women of the synagogues are joining our movement and other type of movements and leaving their so-called past religion. So the rabbis are going to take up... They like this deprogramming. They like this kidnapping. And he says also that just now in Newsweek magazine there's been a big article printed in favor of deprogramming, special article about this Tucson, Arizona, deprogramming center. So he says that he expects more and more of this deprogramming. He's a little bit alarmed because all of our leaders will be here in India now for the next few weeks.

Ādi-keśava: Turn the fan off...

Prabhupāda: The light, not the fan.

Hari-śauri: It won't turn off the same way it turned on.

Room Conversation with Adi-kesava Swami -- February 19, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is worst. Because I am spirit soul, I am now imprisoned with this material body. It is my unnatural state, and I am eternal, and because I have accepted this material body I have to undergo birth, death, old age and disease. So that is my effort, how to get out of this material body and remain in my original spiritual identity. That is our whole propaganda. We think material atmosphere is our imprisonment, suffering. Material body means suffering. Otherwise I am eternal, blissful, full with knowledge. That is my position. But because I have been impact... (aside:) Again you have the same disease. Attention, you attend, draw there. Don't do that. Very bad habit. Immediately you sit down, you do it. You cannot check it. So actually this is our punishment. This is māyā. That example I have explained this morning, very nice verse, that the moon in the sky is reflected in the water, in hundreds of pots of water, and the wind is agitating the water, and the moon is also agitated—sometimes round, sometimes long, sometimes... The moon is fixed up, but the reflection in the pot making him different. Similarly, I am spirit soul, and I have been captured or I have voluntarily surrendered to this material world, and it is being agitated by the mind, so I am taking this shape, that shape, that shape, this shape, eight million four hundred... That is my trouble. My nature is to be fixed up, always illuminating, but circumstantially I am being agitated by mind, and working with my mind, I am accepting this body, that body, this body, that. So this is very troublesome. Those who have no knowledge, no brain, they are satisfied with this material condition, agitated condition, and driven by the thinking, feeling, willing of the mind. This is very dangerous. We want to get out. This is psychology.

Arrival of Devotees -- February 24, 1977, Mayapura:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The back cover is very good also, the heading.

Rāmeśvara: It says, "Eighteen age-old secrets of inner peace and fulfillment." These are the popular themes in America. Everyone is wanting this. Now we're telling people that "This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa...," we are describing it using the language of the modern psychologists, that "This will give you inner fulfillment. It will enable you to handle more stress and the pressures of daily life. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, you get a stronger sense of your real identity. You feel more in control of your life." By using scientific descriptions, everyone appreciates it.

Prabhupāda: Recent printing, how many?

Rāmeśvara: This printing was 300,000, and that brought it over one million copies.

Prabhupāda: All together.

Rāmeśvara: Yes.

Gargamuni: Rangoon is a Communist state, but still, they say, "We must have these books, and we will make arrangement for payment." No one has refused that they will not pay.

Prabhupāda: Through this Communist country, other Communist countries also...

Gargamuni: Oh, yes. They were very impressed by the Russian reviews in Rangoon. They said, "Oh, in Russia also." I said, "Yes, our Guru Mahārāja, he went there in '71 and gave lectures at the University of Moscow." They were highly impressed with that.

Prabhupāda: This is very improved.

Room Conversation With Artists and About BTG -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Offenseless, he must be properly initiated. It does not mean that he should not be initiated and chant. That is not the idea. You can... Must be initiated, either you are a gṛhastha or sannyāsī or brahmacārī. Not that without being initiated you'll whimsically chant and the effect will be the same. No. You must be initiated. Ādau gurvāśrayam. You must accept a guru.

Rāmeśvara: If you want to sell some product, you may make so many claims, and then the public will buy. So sometimes we quote these psychologists who have done studies that "If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, there are some good effects."

Prabhupāda: Good there is undoubtedly. If you eat something, there will be some effect of eating. But if it is properly eaten, properly made, it will be, have better effect. That is the idea.

Rāmeśvara: We were thinking that something is better than nothing.

Prabhupāda: No.

Hari-śauri: If you advertise the mahā-mantra gives some material benefit, isn't that an offense?

Prabhupāda: Then that is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is aparādha.

Hari-śauri: One of the ten offenses.

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1977, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: Do this. What is my idea I have given. Hm, Yes. (break)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't understand.

Prabhupāda: Apareyam... (break) ...inferior. These rascals, they do not. The superior thing they do not know. They are simply entangled in this material, inferior. Psychologist, psychiatrist. (sound of shenai) Now there is moon. Intelligence. Intelligence, I think, they take it as soul. Therefore they say that the animal has no soul.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But an animal has intelligence. An animal also has some small degree of intelligence.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying the cows, when they know there is something there, they stay away.

Prabhupāda: No. They can understand that "These people are going to kill us. These people will not kill us." They can understand. You know that when I was in America some incident took place, that some slaughterhouse livestock, the..., somehow or other, it was open, and they were fleeing away, going away. Something happened. They were going up on the slaughterhouse, and some of them were shooted.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The cows were running away?

Prabhupāda: Hm. Unless they could understand that "We are kept here for being slaughtered," why they were running away?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They speak of peace, such nonsense. How can they expect peace when they're slaughtering?

Morning Conversation -- April 23, 1977, Bombay:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why does it strike you particularly?

Prabhupāda: It is very insignificant thing, personal. And it is said, personal, if you keep long hair, it will look... But it has been made here, it is said that "People will think like that, that he has become more beautiful." The psychology. Lāvaṇyaṁ keśa-dharaṇam. They rejected all other things. Simply they'll think that "If I keep long hair, I'll be very beautiful." This psychological study is there. And five thousand years before, prediction. How much authoritative the book is, just imagine. Is it not fact? Vyāsadeva's authority, try to... How perfectly authorized he is. They're stating psychological effect of people five thousand years ahead. Not only that, there are many descriptions what will be the name two thousand, three thousand years... Generally said, "This name will be like this. This name will be like this. Your son, grandson, great-grandson, what will be their names, this is..." So why shall we not believe just that statement of planetary system? If they are so correct... Planetary system is already there, but they are foretelling what in future, it will happen. That is my conviction. Therefore I do not believe anyone except Bhāgavata, Bhagavad-gītā. That is my science. They speculate. I don't believe it. Why shall I...? And in the beginning Vyāsadeva said, kim anyaiḥ śāstraiḥ: "Take only Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the book of knowledge. Bas. You need not read any other." Nigama-kalpa-taror galitaṁ phalam idam: (SB 1.1.3) "This is essence of all Vedic knowledge." (pause) There are so many gentlemen here. They want to give their property, house, outside Bombay, to this institution.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Unless we can properly manage them though, there's no use taking them.

Prabhupāda: Land, house, they are free. But there is no arrangement we can make.

Talk with Svarupa Damodara -- June 20, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Therefore he is āśraya, electrified. Sākṣād-dharitvena samastra-śāstrair uktas tathā bhāvyata eva, kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Priya viśaya. Therefore he can act as āśraya. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. Āśraya laiyā bhaje, kṛṣṇa nāhi tāre tyaje, āra saba more akara. Others simply wasting time.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The mental attitude of the inquirer or the seeker in this bhakti process, you also said, it plays a very important role in understanding this relationship between the jīva, or individual life, ātmā, and Paramātmā, these two relationships. So we proposed that since it is based on psychological interactions, willing, feeling and the thinking, so the attitude should be humble and it should not be arrogant, and it should feel the limitations. Actually we try to bring all the brahminical qualities in order to study this bhakti-yoga in a scientific manner, and we presented like that, briefly, in a scientific community, and it was mildly accepted. They were just thinking that...

Prabhupāda: Therefore in the society there must be qualified brāhmaṇa. The all rascals, śūdras, professors...

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like in a scientific experiment we have so many conditions...

Prabhupāda: Just this morning I gave: bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa... Nanda Mahārāja. Bring that book.

Upendra: Downstairs.

Prabhupāda: Tvaṁ hi (sic:) brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ. Gargamuni is addressed by Nanda Mahārāja. Tvaṁ hi brahma-bhujaṁ śreṣṭhaḥ, bālayor anayor nṛṇāṁ brāhmaṇo rūpa. Seven.... Eighth Chapter. There is mark. Read there. Just let...

Conversation, 'Rascal Editors,' and Morning Talk -- June 22, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Every seven years...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...all change. So change is actually...

Prabhupāda: So that change takes place according to your mentality. You are subtle thing, psychological. One man is thief. By change, he can become a saintly person. One man is saintly person; he becomes a thief. So that change, according to three qualities... Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti sattva-sthāḥ (BG 14.18). You cannot ascertain immediately because you are changing from sattva-guṇa to rajo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa to tamo-guṇa. So how you can be ascertained? But there will be change. That is fixed. So we have to take this word change. So you cannot expect what changes. Are you going to be dog or hog or god? That will depend on your work. How you can expect to see, that "I do not see"? But that is not certain. There are 8,400,000's of different types of change of body. But you have to change. Not that you have to become a dog. You can become a demigod. Ūrdhvaṁ gacchanti... But change is certain. So if change takes place, then where is your position? Whatever you have done-śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8).

Yaśodā-nandana: They will say, "We can perceive all the changes during this life. We agree..."

Prabhupāda: And next life or this life, rascal...

Yaśodā-nandana: "Because the last change, at death, the last transmigration to another body, because we cannot see according to our scientific experience..."

Conversation: 'How to Secure Brahmacaris' -- June 24, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just see how much trouble it was.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: After some time they allowed him to walk. There were snakes in the garden.

Prabhupāda: Just... That is a psychology. I am not going out. But if I am ordered that "You cannot go out," then I become mad. I am not going out of this house, but if I have to maintain this idea that "I cannot go out," then I'll become mad. I know that I can go out whenever I like, but due to my diseased condition, I cannot go. That is another thing. But if I am able to go out and I am ordered not to go out, then I will become mad. This is psychology. So this is the position of the society, very, very bad. And our mission is para-upakāra, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. So if we actually want... This is very good opportunity to train up from the very beginning to create vidvān, bhaktimān, jñānavān. Others also, they may be given opportunity. There is everything in the śāstra. We are presenting Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa has given all direction in every field of activity. So let us carry out the orders of Kṛṣṇa as it is, as far as possible. That is our duty. Now these, my programs, they're also taking the concentrating people in the village, government?

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: That's it.

Talk About Varnasrama, S.B. 2.1.1-5 -- June 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not a bogus sādhu.

Prabhupāda: Then he... Father-mother knows that he'll take care of his life automatically. And the boy and the girl are not allowed to mix with second girl, second boy. They are kept strictly. And when they're grown up, they're allowed to mix and the affection becomes firm. These are psychology. It is the psychology of woman that before puberty, if she has got a boy, she loves forever. She'll never be unchaste. So these marriage things are done very psychologically, scientifically, so that they may become happy, and then, in peaceful mind, combine together, good cooperation, they make progress, spiritual. This is the plan, varṇāśrama-dharma. Very scientific. And Kṛṣṇa says, "I am that." Whatever Kṛṣṇa shall give-perfect. Nobody cares. They are suffering.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now you are introducing again to the world. There is good hope. Young girls in our society, they should be promised to some boy just in the same way, by their parents.

Prabhupāda: And if required, one man can take care of more than one wife because woman population is greater.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. And some boys want to remain brahmacārī. So naturally there's fewer men for women.

Prabhupāda: And those who are able, you can keep more than one wife. Just see Kṛṣṇa-sixteen thousand wives. God. That is God. Come on, if there is anyone to compete. Sixteen thousand palaces, sixteen thousands wives, each wife, ten sons. That is God.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No one is equal to or greater than Him.

Talk About Varnasrama, S.B. 2.1.1-5 -- June 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. That is husband's duty. She has dedicated her everything to the husband, and husband must see that she is comfortable. This is husband. She must have children, she must have good house, good eating, good clothing, good ornament. Then she is satisfied. They want these things. A woman does not mind very much, "My husband has got more than one wife." If she gets all the comforts of her wishes, some children and some comforts, then she is... She does not grudge because woman knows man's psychology. A man is not satisfied with one woman. So he must be given that. But she must be chaste. She cannot have more than... Then their relation is all right. If the woman allows husband—"He likes. Let him have more than one woman, but I must be chaste"—this... Our civilization is nowhere, Vedic culture.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In the villages in India, is this still going on sometimes. We see in the cities it's not, but in the villages, do they still have more than one wife?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Not poor man. Kṣatriyas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, not these...

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not these workers.

Prabhupāda: They cannot maintain.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that's right. They don't have the land to maintain. You have to have land.

Talk About Varnasrama, S.B. 2.1.1-5 -- June 28, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That's it. And if nice children are there in the society, they will become responsible men. Then there will be no disturbance in the society. Everything will go on smoothly. Brāhmaṇa is acting as brāhmaṇa; kṣatriya is acting as... They are both... No quarrel. No animosity. Everyone is cooperating with one another. The whole society becomes peaceful. Family becomes peaceful. The man personally becomes peaceful. Then he will be able to make progress. Kutaḥ śānti ayuktasya. If you are not peaceful, how you can attain? Or if you are not a devotee, you cannot be peaceful. Or if you are not peaceful, you cannot become devotee. But if you can become devotee, you become peaceful. So I have studied practically. Vedic way of simple life is the best. And unless you adopt the Vedic way of simple life, you'll be implicated, material desires. There is no end. The Western civilization, they are after sense gratification, but there is no limit where it will end. The psychology is that everything new. They are changing—"change, change, change." And there is no limit. Where the sense gratification will be satisfied, this much? Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma. Kāmasya na indriya-prītir lābho jīveta yāvatā (BG 18.44). Na indriya-prītiḥ. We require sense gratification—we have got senses—but not for the matter of sense. Just to live. Just like sleeping—we require bedding. And why shall I be dissatisfied if there is no good bedstead and no silk, silver and, or, and this, that, so...? Within my means, whatever comforts are available, I make satisfaction. Why shall I make competition?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's not the purpose of life. It's missing.

Room Conversation about Mayapura Attack Talk with Vrindavan De -- July 8, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sanskrit is given. It's very nice. "Spiritual Psychology: Going Beyond the Sex Impulse."

Prabhupāda: They printed in their own press.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Very good advancement. What is this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, "Āśrama Stems." It's describing the construction of your palace. And here's a picture of the two śālagrāmas which they now worship. Look how elaborate!

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrī Hiraṇyagarbha and Śrī Sudarśana in jeweled thrones. This is making the top of the domes. On your Palace there's... The top domes have lotus petals coming under them. So over that will go the domes. This is very big. The devotees are making the whole thing themselves. This shows devotees. See, this is a form, and into this form they'll pour concrete and other things and make shapes like these lotus petals. It's all hand done. "The Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement." This is pictures of saṅkīrtana in Pittsburgh and Wheeling, West Virginia. "Iṣṭagoṣṭhi: Questions and answers discussed between His Holiness Kīrtanānanda Swami and members and guests of New Vrindaban." "Cow-Kathā." (laughter) Like kṛṣṇa-kathā, cow-kathā. "Seeking Refuge from the Kali-yuga." This is from your old Back to Godheads. I remember in the first printings in America this appeared-Nārada-Bhakti-Sūtra. This boy writes an article every week—"Deep in the Woods." He's the woodman there, wood cutter. He tells about different... He relates it to the śāstra. "Color photographs available of Rādhā-Vṛndāvana-candra." They send it in the mail, "Non-profit organization, US Postage Paid." So it goes in the mail just like this. Very nice. I think it's time for your massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I'll take.

Room Conversation-Recent Mail -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "It is no wonder that this transcendental treasure chest of spiritual texts have been described by many scholars as the first presentation of full encyclopedia of Vedic knowledge. This encyclopedia touches various subject matters relating to philosophy, religion, sociology and anthropology, literature and classics, political science, history and psychology. On the back side of this pamphlet an order blank to apply for a full encyclopedia published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is given. Please fill in and return." (chuckles) Here's what he says, "The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Library of Vedic Knowledge can make a worthwhile gift to a friend of relative or may be kept in one's own home. Or one may contribute a set to a school, college, hospital library, reading room, temple, or for any other charitable purpose. The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust is offering this encyclopedia on an easy installment basis by which one may receive published volumes every month without any extra cost." Sounds like they're getting a lot for free. (chuckles)

Prabhupāda: Organized very nice. Hm. "Gargamoney." (laughter)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "Kindly fill in the form below to receive your first volumes." Then it says, "Name and age, date of purchase, address, city, state, country, type of business, phone, number of sets to be purchased." Number of sets to be purchased. It's very hopeful. "Whether encyclopedia is for personal use or other, please explain." 'Cause they're going to keep a file to see what people use it for. "Number of books to be received each year. Amount given as advance." He says, "At least fifty percent of the total cost can be given for the complete set as advance, and balance to be made in yearly installments. Signature of purchaser.

Room Conversation Varnasrama -- July 14, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Transcendental meditation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, this is transcendental. "This is real psychotherapy," he called it. He made it seem like this is legitimate, this is a bona fide experiment, just like you go to a psychologist or psychiatrist. He tried to explain it as a medical drug for helping the mind. But as a result of it so many people became crazy by using it.

Prabhupāda: Howling.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you saw so many people who were taking it in America.

Prabhupāda: Seventy-five percent. Therefore Devānanda presented it: "Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is hippies' movement."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Devānanda. I remember at one initiation ceremony you asked... It was Kauśalyā. You said to her, "What are the four principles?" So she stated them. Then you said, "What is the fifth?" So she didn't know what to answer. Then you said, "No LSD."

Prabhupāda: This Kauśalyā girl was loitering in the street.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Kauśalyā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kauśalyā. In Hawaii.

Room Conversation -- July 19, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Just photograph a copy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All right. When Yaśomatīnandana goes to Delhi he can make a photocopy. Send it to the man by mail. "Thought we'd let you know, CIAs are back in Māyāpur." (break)

Prabhupāda: ...because there is psychological difference.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, one thing is that... Of course, when one has no energy, when one has no strength, then it's hard to be active. But then the other thing is true, that when one is active, he gets appetite automatically.

Prabhupāda: Therefore those who are physically active, they can eat more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's true.

Prabhupāda: But those who are not physically active, they cannot eat.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. That's the difference between the Bengalis and the Punjabis. Punjabis work very hard.

Prabhupāda: No, they eat also.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And they eat very nicely.

Prabhupāda: They are healthy men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Bengalis, they do a lot of clerical jobs, sitting in one place.

Room Conversation -- October 3, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: ...keeping money in the bank. Means so long I think that the bank keeping money is my pocket. And as soon as I've got the sentiment that these men are interested to keep our money in their pocket, I'll be very careful not to deposit.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he said that to me today. He said, "Now your fixed deposits are decreasing, and your bank balances in all accounts are very minimal." The manager said this to me today.

Prabhupāda: Because they are harassing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Because... The reason... We are afraid of their psychology that they think that our money is now theirs. And that is giving us fear.

Prabhupāda: They're thinking like that. We cannot freely have our money.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually it's only with the greatest difficulty that you were able to transfer this fixed deposits. Four times they came to you, and for even a half hour to one hour at a time went on and on, explaining to Prabhupāda why he should not do this. Really the best thing is that, I mean, if I can give this humble advice, is that someone like Girirāja should deal with them instead of... Because I feel, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they take advantage of you when they talk with you, and that makes me feel very bad to see.

Prabhupāda: Then tell Girirāja. Ask Girirāja to take...

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Because they see that you're not that well, and they also know that you're so merciful. And you're also a local Brajabāsī in a way. Therefore they're always against any of us taking any participation. It's the funniest thing. I explained something to Girirāja. He's been dealing with so many legal things for so long that he's become like a lawyer, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Śatadhanya: And they want to adjust it according to the time.

Prabhupāda: And that is Māyāvāda. (break) ...superficially Caitanya Mahāprabhu also a Māyāvādī.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. That was confirmed when He was talking like that. Just like Carl Jung... He's a psychologist. He says that matter is a concept, some sort of imagination that one has in his mind, something like that idea that these Māyāvādīs... They think this is not real.

Prabhupāda: It is not real in this sense: because the spirit is there, therefore it is there. Because there is consciousness, there is ignorance, covering. And if you stop this ignorance, then consciousness is there, pure.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: When the consciousness is undeveloped, looks like dead body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. (break)

Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a living body, in a living cell, actually it is made up of innumerable lives. But among these innumerable lives, the jīva, who is...

Prabhupāda: He's a particular individual. In the body... Just like you are in this room. When you leave this room, the room becomes vacant, but there are innumerable other jīvas.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But different consciousness. So among these innumerable lives making this whole living body, there is one which is highly...

Room Conversation -- October 30, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It should be tangibly felt. It should be some actual, tangible result. You should have more strength, sitting up on your own or something of this kind. Then I'll believe that you're actually feeling better, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Because otherwise, psychologically, one may feel himself better, but then that should manifest in being able to sit up or something of that kind, turn around in bed on one's own.

Prabhupāda: Do you think I am able to do that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, I'm encouraging you. I don't know if you can do it.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Now I cannot sit up independently.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Of course, that's a big step to take, but there's things like turning over in bed on one's own. I mean the point is one should not have to force oneself to do this, but those will be the signs of actual improvement.

Bhavānanda: But that will only come from renewal of strength. And renewal of strength will only come from appetite, when you start eating.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's not artificial.

Prabhupāda: Eating only juice.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1977, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You do? That's not a good sign. I mean I wouldn't expect that you should be that much stronger, but I don't see why you should be weaker now. Do you think it may be psychologically that you're weaker? I mean, how would you know if you were weaker now?

Prabhupāda: Because I cannot sit down.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You can't sit up. You mean after being sat up you can't stay sitting up? You were never able to sit yourself up. That you were not doing since many months ago. When you say you're not able to sit down, you mean you cannot keep sitting in a sitting position? 'Cause that you were able to do in the last day or two, sitting up. It might be... I don't know, but it may be more psychological, from laying in bed all the time. Naturally there is a feeling perhaps that one is... Weakness also means one's willpower becomes more weaker. Is that possible that that may be it?

Prabhupāda: What it is, Kṛṣṇa knows.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, the signs which the kavirāja told us to look for, which would show that things are going well, are definitely present. The fact is that you have been passing more urine every day, nearly double the amount that you previously were passing. And also you're not exerting yourself as much. Up until a week ago you were speaking a lot, translating or otherwise, and this parikrama you were doing was also exerting. So in that respect you're not exerting yourself as much. In other words, all of the things which the kavirāja has asked us to do, we're doing and you're doing. So we should now wait and see. In the meantime, we're here chanting. If you like, we can read. And we're perfectly satisfied to be with you. So I don't see that there's any difficulty in waiting to see the results of the treatment, see if it has actually helped.

Bhakti-caru: (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)