Prabhupāda: This is called Brahman realization, spiritual realization, this stage, when you understand that "I am not this body. I do not belong to this country. I do not belong to this family. I do not belong to this society." This is negative. Some philosophers are trying to make these things void. But actually I am existing. I am existing in misunderstanding. But that does not mean I am not existing. I am not void. Just like I am existing within this apartment. But instead of knowing myself, I have identified this apartment: "myself." So to simply to understand that "I am not this apartment" is not perfect knowledge. Then what is my position? What I am actually? When we come to that consciousness... At the present moment, I am conscious of this body, of this country, of this society, of the family. But when I perfectly understand that I am not any of these things, then my consciousness also changes because at the present moment my consciousness is absorbed with all these things. So as soon as I understand that I am not all these, then my consciousness must change, not that my consciousness will stop. If I am in misunderstanding, if I come to the right understanding, that does not mean my understanding is stopped.
Not perfect (Conv. and Letters)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1968 Conversations and Morning Walks
1970 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Whatever arrangement you do, that's all right. But if some of you members become our life members, that will be...
Haṁsadūta: Have you seen our books? Would you like to see?
Prabhupāda: So you can explain. (break) ...the footprints of liberated predecessors like Manu and others. So they are conditioned. Therefore their rules and regulations are not perfect. It cannot be perfect.
Prabhupāda: Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ (SB 10.2.32). They do not know. They are after brahmaṇanda, transcendental pleasure, but they do not know what is actually transcendental pleasure, impersonalists. Therefore their intelligence is not clean. They go to the spiritual kingdom, transcendental platform, but they do not that know, how real transcendental pleasure can be achieved. Therefore their knowledge is not perfect.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: No, I don't reject. The thing is that perfect knowledge is received from the authority which… beyond the material defects.
Dr. Weir: No, what I mean is, fear is not necessary for learning from an authoritarian source.
Prabhupāda: No, authority must be perfect. Then otherwise the knowledge is not perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He's saying that you don't need to necessarily have to fear the authority before you accept him.
Prabhupāda: There's no question of fearing. There's no question of fearing.
Dr. Weir: That's what I thought. You don't acce... That doesn't come in at all.
Prabhupāda: No. No. It is out of love, out of affection, the reciprocation.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Goodness means you can understand things. Knowledge. You can know that there is God, that this world is created by Him, and so on, so on, so many things, actual things. The sun is this, the moon is this, perfect knowledge. Even not perfect, he has got some knowledge. That is goodness. And passion means he identifies with this material body. And he tries to gratify his senses only. That is passion. And ignorance means animal life. He does not know what is God, how to become happy, "why I am in this world." Just like you are taking one animal to the slaughterhouse, it will go. But a man will protest. So this is ignorance. The goat, it is to be killed after five minutes, but if you give him a morsel of grass he's happy, he's eating. Just like a child. You are planning to kill her or kill him, he is happy, he's laughing, because innocent. That is ignorance.
Bob: Oh, oh, I see. (break) ...question on prasādam, if I may. Let us say if some devotee has some trouble and does not eat a certain type of food. Like some devotees do not eat ghee because of liver trouble. So these devotees, should they take all the prasādam?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I say those who are not perfect devotee, they may discriminate. But a perfect devotee does not discriminate. So why should you imitate a perfect devotee? So long you have discrimination, you are not a perfect devotee. So artificially why should you imitate a perfect devotee and eat everything?
Bob: Oh-h.
Prabhupāda: The point is, a perfect devotee does not make any discrimination. Whatever is offered to Kṛṣṇa, it is nectar. That's all. Just like exactly Kṛṣṇa accepts anything from a devotee. "Whatever is offered to Me by My devotee," He accepts. The same thing for a devotee. (break) ...point?
Bob: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There is no religion. Strictly speaking, simply some dogmas, maybe some moral principles. That is another thing. But moral principles we have to transcend. We don't say that don't follow moral principles. But even they do not follow the moral principles. Then what is the..., where is the religion? Just like Christian religion, it is said that "Thou shalt not kill." But everyone is killing. So nobody's... Factually, religion means conception of God and the words of God, all over the world. Just like good citizen means he knows what is the government and what is the law of government. He is following. Similarly, religious person means he must know what is God and what are the words of God. So our principle is that we follow the words of God. God says, God says that "Always think of Me." So who can object to this, if he's seriously about religion? Why one should not think of God always? God says that "You think of Me." But if you have no idea of God, how you'll think of? We have God, Kṛṣṇa, here. We can think of His form. We are busy in His service. We are not only thinking; we are trying to become His devotee. We are serving, trying to serve Him. Rising early in the morning, offering maṅgala-ārati, then prayers, then reading His message, trying to apply in our life as far as possible. We are not perfect, but we are trying to follow the instruction of God. This is our life. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakta mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru. So you have studied that magazine. Can you give me any idea, what do you think about religion? What is religion?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to be really happy, and so they say the...
Prabhupāda: No, you be happy, that is nice, because happiness is our position. According to Vedic civilization, every living entity is by nature should be happy. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt (Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12). That is the nature, to become happy. But if you say that the arrangement of nature is not perfect, then you are fool.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's why these people are saying that God created the universe, but still they say, "We want more." (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What does he want more? Suppose we require water, so there is ample water. You require a little salt for your eating, so there are so much salt. So what do you want more? Everything is perfect and it is sufficient. What does he want more? If you want more motorcar, the more motorcars you are getting you are risking your life by accident, and you have to construct so many flyways.
Prabhupāda: It is a fact. Just like this child is transmigrating from one body, one kind of body to another body. So in the same way, when I give up this body I transmigrate to another body. This is the science. Unfortunately, there is no university, no education, no culture of this great science. Therefore according to Bhāgavatam, the knowledge is imperfect. The knowledge which are imparting from universities, they are not perfect knowledge. And this human form of body is the opportunity to understand the position of the soul and how he is transmigrating from one body to another, what is happening next. In this way, in this human form of body, we can understand this science, science of soul. Unfortunately, no education is there to understand this science. So in other words, it may be taken that the modern civilization is killing the prerogative of the human being. He has got a chance to understand himself and to stop. He can stop this repetition of birth and death. He can remain in a spiritual form in the spiritual kingdom or with God, but these things are unknown to him, because there is no discussion in any university or any institution of knowledge.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: To count?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called saṅ-khyā, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sāṅkhya. So, from the saṅkhyā, the word, it comes sāṅkhya, knowing analytically. This is sāṅkhya philosophy. So you are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Everyone is sāṅkhya philosopher. We are also sāṅkhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Kṛṣṇa says: bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4). We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Kṛṣṇa says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Kṛṣṇa says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sāṅkhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Kṛṣṇa is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.
Prabhupāda: Doubtful. That means not perfect knowledge. So how they can say that there is no God. They can say: "Yes, there may be or may not be. We do not know." That is a gentleman. How they can say there is no God? And people are misled. "Oh, such and such scientist has said there is no God. Therefore there is no God." He does not know that he's a perfectly foolish. His statement has no value. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhaḥ lokas tad anuvartate (BG 3.21), because he has posed himself as a very big man, people follow him blindly and they're misled.
Karandhara: Like the Russians...
Prabhupāda: Oh, they are set of fools.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They do not believe in God, the Russians?
Prabhupāda: No. They are all rascals. I have studied them in one week.
Krishna Tiwari: Only perfect can be then your superpower, which you're talking about. You cannot be perfect either.
Prabhupāda: No. no. I am not perfect, but I am following the perfect. That is...
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, well, superpower, everybody is following a superpower, everybody else...
Prabhupāda: That is... No. You have no such power. You have no such superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, I have no such superpower, but...
Prabhupāda: You say that you do not know anything beyond this material knowledge. That you do not know. Therefore you do not know what is that superpower, which is controlling. But I know the superpower.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that's my question. I don't know whether you know that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference.
Śyāmasundara: So we see in the creation of God, it also traces back to the Creator.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation means the Creator. Just like when I see the picture of so many sculptor. So who has done it? I come to David. To appreciate the creation means you have to come to the point, appreciating the Creator. Otherwise, it is not finished. Or your knowledge is imperfect still. So these scientists, they are simply trying to study the creation. They have no knowledge about the Creator. That is the defect. Neither do they try, neither they can understand. They are so foolish and poor fund of knowledge. They should try to understand the Creator also. Then the knowledge is perfect. Just like the scientists, they are theorizing that life began from matter, chemicals. But wherefrom the chemicals came? That is insufficient knowledge. They say, "Chemicals existed." Now, we have no such experience... Just like we ate some purīs. Purīs had to be created. Not that existed. It is existing, but when I require, I have to create it. The crude example. The chemicals, wherefrom the chemicals came? That is answered in the Bhagavad-gītā. In this way you have to study. Simply to study the creation, that is imperfect knowledge. When you come to the Creator, then it is perfect. Just like if you see simply his sculptures, so many things, that is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: But someone who's just seeing his sculpture, they don't know what...
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: They don't know what he's like.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not perfect knowledge. Perfect knowledge is when you understand the creator. What do you think?
David Wynne: I think yes. I'm not sure that the analogy..., I think that the greatest... Well, it is true because with the greatest sculpture, one does get to the full understanding, but if one really understands the universe, well, one would see God, I suppose.
Prabhupāda: No.
David Wynne: No.
Prabhupāda: You have to penetrate. You have to understand who has created this universe.
Prabhupāda: Do you think that this process, as I have suggested, to know one's father through the authority of the mother is not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: Oh, well, I think it's as near perfect as you can get.
Prabhupāda: Why you say, "as near"? Why still doubt?
Mr. Wadell: Because it is not quite the same thing as my knowing that I am here. There's a famous French philosopher who began all his philosophy from the phrase "I am conscious; therefore I know that I exist." And he deduced everything, you know, starting from here.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. You are conscious, I am conscious, that's a fact. It is not the question of belief. It is not question of belief. Belief may be wrong, but fact is fact.
Mr. Wadell: But not necessarily in the same way. Because....
Prabhupāda: No. Just to understand what is God, if you try to understand in this way that "God is good," "God is all-attractive," is it not perfect?
Mr. Wadell: It is a partial statement.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Mr. Wadell: But it doesn't tell me...
Prabhupāda: But then, when you go deep into the matter, you understand more and more. In the beginning...
Mr. Wadell: But you will never, I suspect, here on earth understand...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that suspicion I have already answered...
Mr. Wadell: Not for me, you haven't.
Prabhupāda: ...that you have to go through a process, right process. Then there will be no suspicion. The same example. But if you do not go through the process you will be always suspicious.
Prabhupāda: Because Veda, Veda means knowledge. Knowledge means truth. Unless you come to the knowledge of truth, your knowledge is not perfect.
Father Tanner: But do you specifically have a precept against telling a lie, or against hypocrisy?
Prabhupāda: Well, hypocrisy and other things, they are subsidiary. If one is pure from the very beginning, then there is no chance of becoming hypocrite. Why he should be hypocrite? If he is open, clear, why one should become hypocrite? Hypocrisy, when there is sinful activity, then hypocrisy. If there is no sin, where is the possibility of hypocrisy? A sinful man may pose himself a religious man. That is hypocrisy. But if there is no sin, then where is hypocrisy?
Father Tanner: What I didn't understand is how this is covered by your four pillars, the four...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is, I am pointing out. Leadership,... God means "the leader." According to Vedic injunction, God means "the supreme leader." Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). He is the chief living entity. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). God means the Supreme Leader. So leader you have to accept. That is the conception of God. Either you select Buddha or Lenin or somebody else, you have to accept one leader and follow. That is your business. So our philosophy is that Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, He's the Supreme Leader. And we are to obey His orders. This is our philosophy. So if you do not obey the orders of Kṛṣṇa, if you obey the orders of Lord Buddha, or somebody obeys the orders of Lenin, the principle is there that you have to follow the orders of somebody. Now, you select Lenin, Kṛṣṇa or Buddha or Gandhi or anyone. That is a different thing. But the principle—to accept one leader and follow his leadership—is there everywhere. That nobody can change. That is not possible. So the professor could not give me any satisfactory answer, you see. The leadership you have to accept. You cannot do anything independently. You have to accept. That is our constitutional position, that we have to follow somebody. Now you select whom you shall follow. If you are following the most perfect, then you become perfect. And if you are following less perfect or imperfect, then you are imperfect. This is our philosophy. You have to follow some leader. If your leader is perfect, then you are perfect. If your leader is not perfect, then you are also not perfect.
Prabhupāda: If you think that Kṛṣṇa's not perfect, somebody is perfect, then you follow him.
Buddhist Monk (1): What we believe is that incomparable bliss and peace everlasting is the most perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is... These are items. These are items. First of all you have to follow a perfect leader. Then whatever he says, that is perfect. So that peace, you have given a definition of peace. Kṛṣṇa is giving definition of peace:
- bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ
- sarva-loka-maheśvaram
- suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānāṁ
- jñātvā māṁ śāntim ṛcchati
- (BG 5.29)
"I am the proprietor of all the lokas," sarva-loka-maheśvaram, suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. "I am the friend of everyone." Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasām. "And I am the enjoyer of all fruitive activities." Jñātvā mām. "When one knows Me like that, he gets śānti." This is the śānti formula given by Kṛṣṇa. One has to accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Enjoyer. Because He's the proprietor of everything; therefore He should be enjoyer.
Prabhupāda: No, basis... Now, suppose if a people in general, they are not advanced, by their votes, somebody is elected, he may not be also advanced. That is the defect of democracy. Mass of people, they are not advanced. So simply by their vote, if somebody is elected, then they will have to repent. Just like Nixon. He's elected, but these people are again decrying him, that "No, you are not good." So why do you, did you elect him? You elect, and again you reject. That is the defect of democracy. that people are not advanced. They can commit mistake, elect somebody wrong. And then they will lament. This is the defect. But monarchy, as it was approved by the Vedic culture, the monarchy, if the king is first-class, God conscious... A king should be like that. That is the ideal king. They are described in the Bhagavad-gītā: rājarṣi. The king should be just like saintly person, although he's king. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). And just like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He was rājarṣi. All the kings in those days, they were trained up in such a way that they were saintly persons, although they were the king. Not debauch. So one person, if he's authorized... Just like the communists, they are thinking of dictatorship. This is also another kind of dictatorship. But if the dictator, or the king, is a perfect man, then his dictatorship or royal power is quite... But that, that is not possible at the present moment. But at the present moment, the democracy is also not perfect. Because the mass of people, they have no perfect knowledge. By sentiment. So it may be they're electing a wrong person. That is the defect of democracy.
Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the...
Prabhupāda: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he'll manage, he'll manage. But if he's not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn't matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man.
Lord Brockway: Now, in taking your view that all men and women are the children of God, they've got God within them, then the advance of mankind must be by giving the opportunity of God in all men and women.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Lord Brockway: And you, you may easily have a person who is very God conscious, beautiful in their own lives, beautiful to all the group around them, who have no understanding of the problems of the world at all.
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect God conscious. That is partial. Perfect consciousness means full understanding also. That is perfect God consciousness. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3). This is the Vedic injunction. If you understand only God, then you understand everything. But if he does not understand everything rightly, that means he's not fully understanding God. This is the... If, as you say, that a man is fully God conscious, but he cannot do this, cannot do that, that means his understanding of God consciousness is still lacking. It is not full understanding. A full understanding of God consciousness means he's a perfect man. He's a perfect man. He'll never commit anything mistake. Because he's guided. Teṣām... What is that? Bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam... Find out. A God conscious person is getting direct instruction from God. How it can be defective? It cannot be. Practical. But if one is defective, he's not yet fully God conscious.
Prabhupāda: That means his knowledge is not perfect.
Guru-gaurāṅga: His knowledge is not perfect, and like us, he is simply trying for perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: So unless you have got your goal perfectly known, how you can make progress? (break)
Guru-gaurāṅga: ...their organization is the guru, and their whole organization knows the ultimate goal which they can attain.
Prabhupāda: And he is part of that organization. He does not know.
Guru-gaurāṅga: He says that evolution of man which is the goal of this order is something that is mystical. It is not scientific, that it is so easily...
Prabhupāda: That means it is pale. It is not distinct.
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect.
Yogeśvara: He says that according to every individual's place of birth, his age, his upbringing, he will experience this communion with God differently.
Prabhupāda: No. God is God. If the experience will have to be taken from God, then it will be equally most possibility for everyone.
Yogeśvara: He says what they are looking for in the Rosicrucian order is the ultimate realization when all these other relative communions with God will disappear and there will be one common realization, experience of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right. But if you cannot describe what is that ultimate goal, then how others can be attracted? (break)
Yogeśvara: ...but in their society they have many different religions, many different groups, and they don't ask anyone to leave being Christian or Jew or Muslim or Hindu or anything like that.
Prabhupāda: So we are not asking in that way. We are asking, "What is that ultimate goal?"
Prabhupāda: That means their knowledge is not perfect. It is all bogus. (break) ...if you meditate on the body what do you gain?
Yogeśvara: To wake up your psychic consciousness which is sleeping inside this body.
Prabhupāda: But you tell me, what is that process?
Yogeśvara: Well, "meditation number three" is to... (break) He says he would like to talk to you a little bit about a book he is reading which describes how the Russians have just discovered the soul. They have photographed the soul, he says,...
French guest devotee: No, no, the aura.
Yogeśvara: ...how they have, the Russians have found the soul and they have described all the different phenomena of para-psychology and extra sensory perception, and he said it's an incredible book, and the Russians have made great discoveries. He hasn't finished the book yet.
Prabhupāda: That is Russians. I am asking him about his...
Yogeśvara: He says that the Rosicrucians they know what is the duty of human life.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Yogeśvara: The destiny of human life.
Prabhupāda: So imperfect knowledge, one who has got imperfect knowledge, how he can give lesson perfect?
Professor: No, but you can still give something, even if you...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect.
Professor: No, but of course, there are different kinds of knowledge and...
Prabhupāda: No, our principle is to get perfect knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's above these defects. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni ca... (BG 7.26). Find out this verse.
Pradyumna: Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you find out that verse: bahūni me janmāni vyatītāni tava cārjuna.
Acyutānanda: It's better than just sitting.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) If he's sincere, it cannot be imperfect. Because... We are always imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa will help us. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam (BG 10.10). How he can be imperfect? Kṛṣṇa will give him intelligence. Imperfect means whose intelligence is not perfect. But when Kṛṣṇa is giving intelligence, how he can be imperfect? He may be imperfect, but he's being helped by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore he's not imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Duty, there are so many duties. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,
- vyavasāyātmikā buddhir
- ekeha kuru-nandana
- bahu-śākhā hy anantāś ca
- buddhayo 'vyavasāyinām
- (BG 2.41)
"Those who are actually perfect, their buddhi is one. And those who are not perfect, their buddhi is distributed in so many ways." Just like you said, duties, so many, so many, this, that, this, that. But just like there are many branches and twigs and leaves and flowers in a tree, but if you pour water in the root, then it approaches everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Physical is my outward dress. Just like your coat, if it becomes old enough, there is no more possibility to use it. You have to throw it away. You have to take another coat. Similarly, physically, I am spirit soul. When my physical body is old enough, useless, then I will have to give it up. I will have to accept another new body. But the question is that I am eternal; why I am forced to accept a body which will be useless after some time? That is the problem. I am eternal, as spirit soul. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). I do not die after the annihilation of this body. But why I am forced to accept another body, which will be annihilated? This technology is unknown all over the world. And still they are proud of becoming very advanced in science. (Aside:) Open this. Let them come. Keep it open. Janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi-duḥkha-doṣānu... (BG 13.9). Come forward. (break) ...technology, although it is a problem. But we can supply this technology, to solve this problem. Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya mām... Jarā-maraṇa-mokṣāya. (break) ...modern technologist, scientists, they do not know what is the perfection of life. Now, they are thinking that having a big building, possessing big building, and possessing a few cars and nice bank balance, that is perfection of life. But suppose you get a very nice home, very nice big bank balance, and other amenities. But there is every possibility that as soon as you prepare all these things, you have to go away immediately, death. There is no guarantee that "After finishing this job, I shall be able to enjoy these things." At any moment you can be asked, "Get out." So this labor, so much labor for creating nice residential quarters, bank balance, and others, that is my futile labor because I could not enjoy it. Therefore this is not perfection of life.
Prabhupāda: Ah. So Napoleon was. But before constructing that arch, he was finished in battle of Waterloo. So all the struggle he made to make France a great country and him to become a great leader was futile. It was not perfectly done. In one statue I saw, "France and Napoleon identical." But France is there; where is Napoleon? Therefore it is called illusion, māyā. Just like our Gandhi, in this country, he struggled so hard, got independence. But just after independence he was killed, finished. He could not enjoy. He simply struggled. You cannot say that he had no desire to enjoy. Then how he was sticking to that politics? And because he was sticking to that politics, he was killed. If he would have retired from politics, he would not have been killed. Therefore because he was sticking to that politics means he wanted to enjoy the fruit. But he could not. Therefore we do not know what is the perfection of life. Because we create so-called paraphernalia of perfection of life, but we are not allowed to enjoy it, therefore we must accept, "There is superior power. Without His sanction I may create very favorable situation, but I may not be allowed to enjoy it." Suppose you are bank manager. If the post is that "Yes, you will be appointed to day and tomorrow you will be kicked out." Will you accept it?
Prabhupāda: Confusion is not... Chaotic condition, confusion is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip...? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca... They can say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Whowf! Whowf! Whowf! Whowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill." They're simply killing. Their only business is killing.
Prabhupāda: Why not? They have to admit Just like I gave you the example that you cannot see how many stars are there, but there are. If you say, "I don't see it, I don't believe it," that is your foolishness. That is your foolishness. You have to admit that your senses are limited. They are not perfect. That is the four defects of the conditioned soul: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he cheats, and his senses are imperfect.
Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again.
Prabhupāda: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?
Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Karandhara: They say you can't separate...
Prabhupāda: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-nārāyaṇa-sevā. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.
Prabhupāda: I see. So... Oh, you have no seat? They are giving him? All right. So from Bhagavad-gītā we understand that Bha... Just like in this planet we are so many persons, or the President Nixon is the President. Similarly, in every planet there are living entities, and the President of the sun planet is called Vivasvān. So he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa long, long ago. In the higher planetary system, the time is different. That was proved when the Russian aeronautics were on the sky. In one hour twenty-five minutes, he went round the earth, twice or thrice, like that. So time is different. So the point is... Just like the sunshine is impersonal, the sun is localized, and the president of the sun globe is a person, similarly, the Absolute Truth is realized in three phases. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The first realization is impersonal, then localized, and then personal. So ultimately, God is person. And that is Kṛṣṇa. So we are hearing directly from the Supreme Personality of Godhead about Godhead, and that is perfect knowledge. If you speak yourself about yourself, that is my perfect knowledge of yourself. And if I simply speculate that "Professor may be like this, like that," that is not perfect.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot independently get perfect knowledge, intellectual. That will remain always imperfect. So intellectually, how you can conceive about God, who is unlimited, beyond your sense perception? We cannot know even ordinary material things, how great the sun is, how this universe is. We have imperfect knowledge. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. Therefore, we are receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the supreme perfect. I am not perfect, but because I am receiving knowledge from the supreme perfect, therefore whatever I say, it is perfect. And that is guru. Guru does not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has heard from the Supreme. That's all. So it is easier. It is easier. If the child says, "A watch, a watch," the child may be imperfect, but he has heard from his father, Here is a watch." That knowledge is perfect. This is our process. And Veda, Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. Veda, this word, Sanskrit word, it means perfect knowledge. Otherwise, there is no way to have perfect knowledge. There must be some source of perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: But they cannot produce. That is the difficulty. They'll speak all nonsense, but cannot produce. No experiment. Simply theoretical observation. That's all. So observation is not perfection of science. You must produce it by experiment. Then it is perfect. Two departments.
Hṛdayānanda: So if you can produce something, that means you actually understand it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You say that it is a combination of such and such chemicals... Just like these rascals say, "Life..." Now he said that "You take the chemicals. Can you produce?" He said, "That I cannot say." You see? Avoiding the issue. This was discussed in the meeting. What is that gentleman?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Professor Stanley Miller. He's from San Diego, physicist.
Prabhupāda: Miller. Yes, he has got Nobel Prize. And his theory is that from chemicals, life has begun. So he said in the meeting that "If I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" He said, "That I cannot say." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize. He has no pure idea, still he has received the Nobel Prize.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not leader, perfect leader. With imperfect knowledge they become leader. Therefore we... Our process is to accept a leader who is perfect. That is our process. And the others, fools, they accept a leader who is not perfect. But either we or they, they must accept a leader. The only difference is that we accept the perfect leader and they accept the imperfect leader. Therefore they are cheated.
Prajāpati: They will not accept the conception of perfection. They say, "We do not accept this term perfection."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are fools, therefore they are fooled. Unless there is conception of perfection, why do you change leader? Why do you make revolution?
Prajāpati: The lesser of two evils.
Karandhara: They accept the conception, but they don't accept the reality of it.
Prabhupāda: No. Reality, because they do not know. They have been always been misguided by rascals. Therefore they cannot think of that there can be perfection. This is called skepticism. Because everyone is faulty, therefore there is no knowledge. This is skeptism. But real knowledge is that as I see this man is intelligent that man, that man is intelligent than that man, therefore there is an ideal intelligent man which we could not find. And that is God. Sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1).
Prabhupāda: We wanted to enjoy. We wanted to enjoy. God has given full freedom to enjoy, but this enjoyment is not perfect. Therefore God comes. He says, "Now you have enjoyed, but you have not enjoyed. You have simply suffered. Therefore please come back again." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam (BG 18.66).
Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species. They experience everything. That is evolution, coming down, again going up, coming down again. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So when they become exasperated, "No more." They want to become merging into the Supreme. When they are fatigued.
Prabhupāda: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see. "What is that light?" I say. But if somebody knows, "Oh, that light is from..., there is a skyscraper building like this, and the light is coming." So I know what I cannot see, I can hear. Therefore what you do not see, next life, you have to hear from authority. That is stated in the Bhāgavata, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: (BG 2.13) "As you have changed so many times in this life, this body, similarly, after death, you will change your body." That is authority. You have to hear. Anything you do not, cannot perceive, you cannot experiment with your senses, you have to hear from another person who knows. That is the process. Why you think your eyes are so perfect that you can see anything? Why you are thinking like rascal? Your eyes are imperfect, and why you are thinking that eyes are perfect? That is rascaldom. I cannot see. You cannot see so many things. Is that a right proposition? I cannot see. What you are? What is your position of eyes? If there is darkness, you cannot see.
Prajāpati: They say the benefit of the light is that light is God. So when they see that light, that is God. So that is the benefit.
Prabhupāda: No. When you see light, you must know there is a source of light. Just like you are seeing the light and the light is there. Therefore there must be a source of the light. Unless you see Him, it is not perfect. Besides that, whether you have seen actually the light? What is the result of seeing that light? Do they explain? Suppose he has seen. I have not seen. So what is the difference between him and me?
Jayatīrtha: Unless the heart becomes purified, there is no sense in seeing any light. The heart has to become cleansed.
Hṛdayānanda: They say they will be happier than someone who has not seen the light. Their life will have more meaning.
Prabhupāda: So happier, they are becoming happier in so many other ways. What is the use of seeing the light?
Jayatīrtha: The pigs are also happy.
Prabhupāda: So that is not perfect.
Guest (1): And when they see that the conditions and the things in the world as they are, they don't fit in with their theories, then they change their theories.
Prabhupāda: No. So they are opportunists. They are not learned scholar. Our proposition is that five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa taught that "I am the Supreme." So Arjuna accepted, paraṁ brahma, paraṁ dhāma: (BG 10.12) "Yes, You are Supreme." Then all the ācāryas later on, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, even Śaṅkarācārya, all accepted. "Yes," kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Then after that, ācārya system, Lord Caitanya accepted, "Yes, Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord." So after Caitanya, five hundred years, all the ācāryas, they are accepting. So we are accepting or teaching the same thing. No change, no change. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yam. If there is change, that is not nitya, that is not śāśvata. That is circumstantial. That is material.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So the Brahman realization is like that. Every living entity, he wants ānanda. Ānanda means just like we are walking together, talking together. This is ānanda. If I would have walked alone, it would have been no ānanda. I do not like. Nobody likes. So ānanda means there must be entourage. Therefore ānanda is with Kṛṣṇa. When we play with Kṛṣṇa, we dance with Kṛṣṇa, talk with Kṛṣṇa, serve Kṛṣṇa, take care of Kṛṣṇa, then there is ānanda. And simply to become one with the Brahman, then you will have to fall down again. Therefore jñāna-kāṇḍa is not perfect. And karma-kāṇḍa is, you can migrate from one body to another or one planet to another. You'll be brahmāṇḍa bhramite. You have to wander. And jñāna-kāṇḍa means you merge. That is also intolerable. Therefore unless you come to bhakti-kāṇḍa, there is no question of real life and bliss. That is the conclusion.
Harikeśa: Preaching must be perfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Perfect means as you have heard from your spiritual master. (indistinct) We are not perfect, none of us, but if you perfectly follow the orders of the perfect, then you are perfect. You should not think that "I have become perfect." Caitanya Mahāprabhu also said, guru more mūrkha dekhi (CC Adi 7.71). He presented Himself as fool number one. So we should always keep ourself as fool number one, that "I am not perfect. I am fool number one." But whatever I am doing I am carrying the orders of the perfect. That is my credit. I am not perfect. Suppose I give you, (indistinct), five thousand dollars. That is not my money. I am not rich man. But the money is paid by somebody else and I deliver, that's all. That is my perfection. If I don't touch it, I do not take from five hundred dollars a paise even, and I deliver it, that is my perfection. I may not be rich man, but if I deliver this amount to you, in perfect order, that is my perfection.
Prabhupāda: Your representative yesterday told me something different.
Indian man (4): They are boys.
Prabhupāda: What they said?
Indian man (2): We are not perfect as disciple...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) This type of mūrti.
Indian man (2): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupāda: (aside:) Hare Kṛṣṇa. (break) ...the other day that this Swami Narayan, not Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Indian man (4): Because tomorrow we'll say Prabhupāda. That we are teaching, but he died very early. He died at the age of forty-eight years.
Prabhupāda: That means that his followers are not well-conversant.
Satsvarūpa: Their reaction is: "Simply because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā does not mean it actually happened." They don't think it happened just because it is written here.
Prabhupāda: No, no, happened or not happened. But you have no estimation, even one universe. You cannot say like that because you are a fool still. Even though it did not happen in the body of Kṛṣṇa, but you have no estimation, you cannot know what is the sun-god or sun planet or moon planet. You cannot go there. So what is the value of your knowledge? If the statement of Bhagavad-gītā has no meaning, then what is the meaning of your scientific knowledge? You are not perfect. So how you can say? Because you are imperfect, so you cannot say against Bhagavad-gītā, which is accepted by all the ācāryas. Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya... Don't be in hurry. Just finish one word. That is sufficient.
Prabhupāda: But these bodies are imperfect. They are not perfect. The moon may not be exposed to them, these rascals. Because a king is not exposed to the ordinary man... Unless one is fit to see him, king is not exposed. That does not mean there is no king. If some rascal says, "There is no president, there is no king," that is his rascaldom, not that there is no king, no president. He cannot see. He has not that qualification. Is that correct?
Indian Man (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. One who has no qualification, he says, because he could not see somebody, he sees, "There is no such existence." Is that a good conclusion?
Indian Man (1): Good psychology.
Prabhupāda: They are fools, all set of fools. Useless. See one thing and write one thing. Then you are not perfect. Bhrama pramāda. You commit mistake. Therefore your instruction is useless, useless. Because you commit mistake, therefore your instruction is useless. And that actually they are doing. As it is suitable, they are changing the words of Bible. They are useless. Things which are changeable, that cannot be accepted as scripture. Scriptural injunction means you cannot change. Just like we accept the Vedic scripture but don't change it. That example I have given many times. Because Lord Buddha wanted to change Vedic literature, therefore he is rejected. Although Lord Buddha is so... We worship him as incarnation of..., but he was rejected. You cannot change. Immediately you are rejected.
Prabhupāda: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality... Because actually he is immortal.
O'Grady: Actuality is immortal.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
O'Grady: Hm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth...
O'Grady: Never takes bath?
Yogeśvara: Birth.
O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in gentle conversation.
Prabhupāda: Actually... Just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body—"I am Irishman, I am Englishman, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian,"—these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations.
Cardinal Pignedoli: This is more important because you have not so many. If you go to South Africa, and although... I mean because also we. We have not so many. It's a question of possibility, of chances. Why don't you choose...? This is my question. These areas where Japan for instance is an area very atheistic and where yesterday I had this sect with me of the not perfectly... It's called... No. It's a different one. Mr. Kalyana is the president. He came yesterday. He came yesterday. Mr. Kalyana. Well, they don't believe, as you say. This is philosophy. Welfare, is happiness, but not in your meaning, in my meaning. Well, this is only to ask, then you go to Japan?
Dhanañjaya: Yes, we have a center in Tokyo.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We have got center in Japan, in Hong Kong.
Cardinal Pignedoli: Are you welcome in Japan? People are interested, eh?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Recently some of our preachers, they have collected fifty-thousand dollars from the Japanese people. They wanted to contribute me for my Vṛndāvana temple, but the Japanese government will not allow to let the money go out. He wrote me. And I have seen personally, when I went... I went to Japan three, four times. These Japanese boys and girls, they are as good as these American, Europeans boys. And that is my practical... Or they, they are my students. They offer me respect so much. The Japanese boys, without being my students, they offer the same respect. So I thought that Japan is very good. Everywhere. That I told you already, that the love of Godhead is dormant in everyone. It doesn't matter what he is. It is the process to awaken that love of Godhead: That is first-class religion. The matter is already there. Simply we have to awaken. And now, that process which awakens very quickly, that is first-class religion. That is the first... And besides that, really understanding of God is very rarely found.
Haihaya: If we have a world day every month, fasting world day. If we can fast, all the world can fast, all inhabitants of the world...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you cannot expect that the whole world will become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is not possible. You keep your standard. Don't be bewildered by these rascals. That is our proposal. We should not be misled by this rascal philosophy. We shall stick to our own philosophy. That is required. Because we know all their philosophy are defective. That is not perfect. So why shall I be misled by their philosophy? We shall stick to our own principle, Kṛṣṇa philosophy. That's all. Everyone should stick to the right philosophy. That is human sense. Not be biased and carried away by some whimsical way.
Prabhupāda: So bhakti school does not very much appreciate the speculative method. They surrender and they try to get knowledge directly from the Supreme Lord, as Bhagavad-gītā is being spoken by the Supreme Lord, or statements of the pure highly elevated devotees, just like Brahmā is speaking. This way. Hearing. The main purpose is hearing, hearing from the right source. That is... Especially in the western world, instead of hearing from the right source, they want to speculate about the Absolute. We have got about twenty books like this, but they are not speculation. They are simply by hearing. I am writing what I have heard, not that I am speculating. Mostly, the philosophers, they write as they speculate. They write their own opinion. But our process is not that. We don't speculate. We present the statements of God and His devotees. There is the whole book. Anywhere you won't find, "I think," "In my opinion," "Perhaps it should be like this way." No. We don't do that. As soon as there is "perhaps" or "maybe," that is not perfect knowledge. That is speculation. Just like in the Padma-Purāṇa, there is statement of different species of life, jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi, statement that "There are 900,000 species of life in the water."
Bhagavān: Then we can ask, "What is that great?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, that we are doing! You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means he has more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Vedic instruction is tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to get first-class experience of the perfection of life, you must approach guru. That is the Vedic injunction. Samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham. Now, who is guru? Whom shall I approach? So the next line explains that approach such guru, śrotriyam, who has heard from his guru perfectly, that guru. Who had no chance of hearing from perfect guru, he is not guru. This is called guru-paramparā, disciplic succession. I hear from a perfect person, and I distribute the knowledge the same way, without any change. So Kṛṣṇa gives us knowledge in the Bhagavad-gītā. We are distributing the same knowledge. It is not by our... (aside:) Water is not required. Water I don't want. There is water. So I am always inexperienced because my power of understanding is very little. Therefore I must get experience from a person who is perfect. Then my experience is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this. he asks his father, "What is this, father?" Father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." The child knows it, "microphone?" That knowledge is perfect, although his capacity is imperfect. A child is imperfect, but because he gets the knowledge from the perfect father who knows what it is, when he speaks "a microphone," he speaks rightly. This is perfect process of knowledge: You approach the perfect person and get knowledge, and that is your perfect experience. Personally, I may be, you may be, not perfect.
Vedavyāsa: So he says yes, he accepts our life now is not perfect, that we are conditioned. But he says we shouldn't construct an ideal human being, but we should accept our life as it is now.
Prabhupāda: No, no. The thing is that you are not perfect. Therefore the idea should be how to become perfect. (German)
Vedavyāsa: (Vedavyāsa is translating from here on) So he asks, "How to become perfect, as human being or as spirit?" Because he sees now only human beings. So this is the problem how to become perfect as human being, not as spirit.
Prabhupāda: Why you are sticking to human being although it is imperfect? Why you are sticking to human being? (German) You are accepting this human being is not perfect, and still, why you are sticking to this imperfect life? Now, in what way you like this human form of body? What is the purpose? (German)
Vedavyāsa: So he says his body is just an instrument of communication, and through this body he can communicate with other people.
Prabhupāda: So this is also possible by the birds and beasts. They also talk: "Kichu, kichu, kichu, kichu."
Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent, not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru. So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru? He taught, He gave lessons to Brahmā, the original living creature in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā. He gave lessons to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, (indistinct) he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme guru. To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble(?). You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru. That is the Vedic instruction.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Means calculation. It is going on, regulated way. Just like everyone knows that this month is February. In the month of June the summer will begin. Everyone knows. It is not conclusion; it is experience. There is no need of calculating. So one who has got better experience, he can say like that. Calculation and experience. Just like if somebody says, "Two plus two plus two plus two," somebody says immediately, "Six." And another calculates, "Two plus two plus..., six." So experience and calculation. Lacks experience, he calculates. One who has better experience, he doesn't calculate. One who knows past, present, and future, he doesn't require to make calculation. He knows everything. So God knows past, present, and future, and others who are favored by God, he also knows by the grace of God. Because he hears from God. God knows past, present, and future. Then he simply reproduces God's words, that's all. He doesn't require to calculate. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmaṇo viduḥ (BG 8.17). The Kṛṣṇa says. Now, we can say what is the age of Brahmā by Kṛṣṇa's words. I don't require to be a very expert astrologer or astronomer. I hear from Kṛṣṇa, and I reproduce. Just like child. Father said, "This is this;" I say, "This is this." That's all. The child is not perfect, but when he says, "Father said this is this," that is perfect. Therefore our process of gathering knowledge from the father—we don't calculate or don't concoct or put theories, no. We don't do that. This is called śruti, śruti-pramāṇa, evidence from śruti.
Prabhupāda: Perfect knowledge means what you say, it is correct. There is no mistake.
Guest (5): Under any and all circumstances.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is perfect knowledge, not like the scientists. They changes: "Yes, it was this. Now it is now changed." This is not perfect knowledge. They simply change. Therefore we say, mūḍhās. Perfect knowledge is that what you say, that is correct forever. That is perfect. Just like man dies. If somebody says, "Man dies," it is perfect knowledge. It is correct forever.
Prabhupāda: Our position is—I have already explained—that we are all imperfect. Therefore we have to take knowledge from the perfect. So God is perfect, or Kṛṣṇa is perfect, so we have to receive knowledge from Him. Then our knowledge is perfect. And so long we shall speculate, that is not perfect because you are speculating with imperfect instruments, what is the use? If I want to cut this table, I must have proper instrument. If I want to cut this table with this book, "Let me cut this," how it will be possible? You must know that for cutting this table it requires this instrument.
Professor: Yes, they say that the only way to acquire knowledge is through śabda.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Śabda-pramāṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is called realization. Yes. First of all you receive the sound, then apply your instruments, and when you find it, it is correct—that is the realization. So our process is to receive knowledge from the perfect. That's all. We are not perfect. But the knowledge we are getting, that is perfect. So according to that perfect direction, if we mold our life, then we are successful. Otherwise you go on experimenting, speculating. Ciraṁ vicinvan. Ciram, you understand, "perpetually," vicinvan, "thinking." Ciraṁ vicinvan.
- athāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-
- prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi
- jānāti tattvaṁ (bhagavan mahimno)
- na cānya eko 'pi ciraṁ vicinvan
- (SB 10.14.29)
What is the use of speculating with imperfect senses? Useless waste of time.
Professor: Well, then what do we with all techniques, all systems, that have been developed? I am thinking only India, I am not thinking other places, and all the old tradition, since Śaṅkara onwards, of different ways to think, to study, to go deeply to all these relations between...
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkara has interpreted. Śaṅkara has interpreted by his limited knowledge. So that is not perfect knowledge. Therefore we don't accept Śaṅkara's philosophy.
Professor: But I said if he belongs to the same tradition, and you belong to the other...
Prabhupāda: That tradition is nothing. Tradition is just temporary. You make your tradition; he makes your tradition. That is another thing. But the, fact is fact. That is not dependent on tradition. Tradition we can make, tradition. "We believe." Just like somebody says, "We believe." What is the use of such saying, "We believe"? You may believe something which is not fact.
Professor: I read something like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Evam paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ (BG 4.2). Without that paramparā the knowledge is not perfect. Give them prasāda. Hm?
Hṛdayānanda: We're going to bring you some prasādam? Spiritual food.
Professor: You are traveling all Latin America now?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I have traveled all over the world in eight years. Eight years? From 1967, eight years. So eight years I have traveled around fourteen times or more than that. No, twice in a year, almost.
Professor: (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, this time, I started from India. Then I went to Hong Kong, from Hong Kong to Tokyo, from Tokyo to Honolulu, from Honolulu to Los Angeles, and from Los Angeles here, Mexico. And then where?
Hṛdayānanda: Caracas.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): So do you mean to say that this is just a contemplative thing that doesn't really have a active influence upon the society to change the different...?
Prabhupāda: No, we must first of all understand that our senses are imperfect. Just like we are sitting in this room. We have got our eyes, but we cannot see what is there, going on, beyond this wall. The sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, and we are seeing just like a disc. So the eyelid is just near the eyes, but we cannot see what is the eyelids. If the light is off, we cannot see. So we can see under certain condition. Then what is the value of our seeing? If we, even if we manufacture telescope, that is also manufactured by the imperfect senses, so it is also not perfect. So anything understood by manipulating our imperfect senses, that is not real knowledge. So our process of understanding real knowledge is to take it from the person who has the real knowledge. Just like if we contemplate or speculate who is my father, it is never possible to understand who is my father. But if we receive the words from mother that "Here is your father," that is perfect. Therefore the process of knowledge should be not to speculate but to receive it from the perfect person. If we receive knowledge from a mental speculator, that is not perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: First of all we have to accept this truth, that perfect knowledge can be received from the perfect person. Just like I have given the example, who is my father. You can understand it from the perfect person, mother. If somebody speculates, "This gentleman may be your father, this gentleman may be your father," that is not perfect knowledge. The perfect knowledge is with the mother. Mother says, "Here is your father." That is perfect knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, because I am heard from the perfect. I am not perfect, but what I say, that is perfect. Just like a child does not know what is this dictaphone, but he has learned from the father, "This is dictaphone," so when he says, "This is dictaphone," it is perfect. The child is not perfect, but because he has heard from his father perfect, so the knowledge is perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): That if you are not perfect, how can you interpret the truth?
Prabhupāda: Because I am giving the perfect truth. Anyone who will accept, it will act. Just like a child says that "This is dictaphone. If you use it like this, you'll get this result." That is perfect.
Professor (Hṛdayānanda): He says that not all knowledge is so objective. For example, in the matter of understanding society, the communists have their theory, the capitalists have their theory, and there's millions of theories and so...
Prabhupāda: That is not knowledge; that is art. Just like electrician. He knows how to mix the two wires and bring the current. That is not knowledge; that is a business or art for temporary recreation. And because he knows the art how to bring the current, it does not mean that he knows the Absolute Truth. So people are taking at the present moment electrician as the knower of the Absolute Truth.
Mexican devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in one of the magazines I read that there was a saint who he didn't even construct a rug?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Romaharṣaṇa. (break) Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ, yajñād bhavanti parjanyaḥ. If there is timely cloud and rainfall, this ground can be moistened very easily. But they won't perform yajña; therefore there is scarcity of cloud and rain. Now they have to manufacture this sprinkler. And it is not perfect. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: Another question, Prabhupāda. He said that you have stated that Kali-yuga will last for around 400,000 more years and then it will be finished and that the culture will gradually degrade, people will become very short and so on and so forth. So he's wondering if there will be geographical changes in the world or if the culture as we know it now will simply disappear and how the people will be... More or less, he's wondering what will become of the earth.
Prabhupāda: Because they will not get sufficient food, shelter, bodily necessities. Just like it is already declining, already declining. Just formerly in our childhood we saw the Western people very tall. Now they are not tall. They are decreasing already. (break) In the Western countries, still there are some but in other countries they are very lean, thin and drawn. Stature of the body will decrease. Memory will decrease. It is already taking place. So in this way, you just imagine, in 400,000 years after, what will be the condition. You take mathematical calculation. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Because I have approached the Supreme, the supreme brain, Kṛṣṇa. He is the perfect person in knowledge. Aiśvaryasya, jñāna. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). He knows everything. He is conducting nature. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ suyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kālacakro. Janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). So we know from the perfect. Therefore my knowledge is perfect. I am not perfect; that's a fact. But my knowledge is perfect. Just like I am not an electrician. But the electrician has told me that "You push this button. There will be light." So I am doing that. What is the use of becoming electrician? I want light, and the electrician told me, "Just push this button." I am doing that, and light is there. That's all. You cannot say, "You are not a electrician. How you can say the light...?" And I know from the perfect person, and it is acting. This is our position. It doesn't require that I will have to become electrician. The electrician has told that "You push this button," and there is light. That's all. Does it require that I will have to become a electrician to conduct this light?
Guest (1): That we believe in.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are not perfect. We can speculate only and that is not perfection. "Maybe," "perhaps," like that. No definite knowledge. The definite knowledge you can get from Kṛṣṇa, the perfect. Therefore all the ācāryas accept Kṛṣṇa. We have to follow the ācāryas, ācāryopāsanam. So in India all these ācāryas, Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, they accept Kṛṣṇa the supreme absolute. Why you should not? Are you more than these ācāryas? Then? That is the defect of modern education, they manufacture education although they're imperfect. They have no the common sense that "I am imperfect, how I am manufacturing education and becoming teacher. My becoming teacher is cheating because I have no perfect knowledge." Knowledge means it must be perfect, not "maybe," "perhaps." This is not knowledge. Definite knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Some... That is something, then there's no perfect knowledge. That is not perfect knowledge. It is... Everyone knows the cow does not take any protein food, it takes on the grass.
Guest (1): Grass is quite rich in protein.
Prabhupāda: Then you take, why you are searching after protein?
Guest (1): Because we cannot digest the fibre in it.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then it is not suitable for you. Therefore nature's arrangement is that protein can be produced through the body of the cow.
Guest (1): I think Swamiji, nature's arrangement was not made for (indistinct) human beings that we have come.
Prabhupāda: Nature was defective, you mean to say?
Guest (1): No, sir.
Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect. Just like we are very proud of our eyes to see, but you cannot see what is beyond the wall. Therefore it is conditioned. You cannot see without light. That, how you can be sure that your eyes are perfectly seeing? That is not possible, because the eyes can see under certain condition. So if it is conditioned, then it is not perfect. But the conditioned sight can be purified. Just like one is suffering from cataract. By surgical operation the cataract can be removed and he can see. Similarly, our senses are imperfect. If we purify the senses, then it will be possible to see God twenty-four hours. That purification process is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.
Young man: Are human beings the only creations that can have Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa consciousness means God consciousness. The cats and dogs cannot be trained up. But a human being can be trained up. Especially the Āryans, they can be trained up. They are advanced.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa means "the all-attractive." As you say that God is so beautiful, so that is, in other words, all-attractive. So if you have realized God, then you have become perfect.
Ānanda-mārga woman: No.
Prabhupāda: No?
Ānanda-mārga woman: Whenever I realize God I receive it through my mind and not perfect. But if I meditate and surrender, then there is no distance between me and God. I reach God and I become one with God. And that's the only time I can call everything true meditation. And that's the only time I experience this life in me. And I cannot talk about it as "me and God" because it was the same as God, because I became one with God. And there was no distance really.
Prabhupāda: Then you are God?
Ānanda-mārga woman: I am not God. I am just... I truly experience this God through me all the time.
Prabhupāda: You say that you and God, one, and again you say that you are not...
Ānanda-mārga woman: If I meditate, then I become surrendered to God. And I'm trying to do that by trying to take this distance away.
Prabhupāda: That means when you surrender to God, then you become God, that you are surrendered God, and He is the person to be surrendered. There are two Gods, why not? You say, "I surrender to God."
Devotee (1): He said that "You are as good as the all-pervading Supersoul."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He... He pointed out the deficiency, that "You have not described so elaborately about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You have touched only the social, religious, political point of views." That was his deficiency. So a disciple is always in deficiency before his spiritual master. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, guru more murkha dekhi karila śāśana (CC Adi 7.71). "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one. Therefore he has chastised Me." So disciple should be always ready to be chastised. He should not think that he has become perfect. That is perfection. So long he thinks that he is not perfect-he's to be chastised—then he's perfect. And as soon as he thinks that he has become perfect, he's nonsense immediately, nonsense number one. (Break) ...always to be chastised by the spiritual master for perfection. And if he thinks that now he has become perfect, then he's a foolish. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more murkha dekhi. "My spiritual master saw Me a fool number one." Was He fool number one? He's God Himself. But that is the position. He should remain always a fool number one, ready to be chastised. Then he's perfect. In the moral instruction, Cāṇakya Paṇḍita gives this instruction, that lālane bahavo doṣas tadane bahavo guṇaḥ: "If you chastise your son or disciple, he'll improve, and if you say, 'Oh, you are all right,' then he'll degrade." Tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayet na tu lalayet: "Therefore you always chastise your son and disciple.
Prabhupāda: To make their Communist philosophy perfection. That your Communism is not perfect. By Kṛṣṇa consciousness you can make it perfect. Take for example that you are sympathetic to all living beings that they must eat. But why you are eating animals? They must eat also. Why don't you allow them to eat? That is you defect. We allow everyone to eat. Not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts, they should live comfortably and without any disturbance, they must get their food. That is our Communism. But where is your Communism? You are thinking of your countrymen only, or in your country also only for the human being, and you are sending other poor animals, because they cannot protest, to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest to the capitalists when they send you to the slaughterhouse? You are sending these poor animals to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest? You protest that the capitalist are slaughtering you. So, if you slaughter others, why should you be afraid of being slaughtered yourself? Is it all right?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Some people. Many authorities say it is right, and that is your fortune or misfortune. As some people say that it is written by some man or something, then it is not perfect. There are many others also, they say it is perfect. Now it is your choice, whom you to follow. So that some people as they are against, there are for also. Now it is up to you to accept whom. It is up to you. We accept the direction of the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Caitanya. Their word is perfect. They take the direction of Gandhi or this man, that man. Both of them are taking direction, but when the direction is perfect, then you become perfect. If the direction is imperfect, you remain imperfect. That's all.
Prabhupāda: That is required. Our nature is blissfulness. Unless we reach Kṛṣṇa, talk with Him, dance with Him, eat with Him, enjoy life, our perfection is imperfect, not complete. Simply Brahman realization, just like simply to see, a child can see also the sunshine, but that does not mean he knows what is the sun, although the sunshine is coming from the sun. So unless you understand what is the actual sun, what is the person within the sun globe, our knowledge is imperfect. Simply realization of the big volume of sunshine, is not perfect. It is also light, and the sun globe is also light, heat. But this heat and light is not sufficient knowledge of the complete heat and light there. That is the difference between Brahman realization and God realization.
Prabhupāda: Why not express it? You can express it. If whatever is within your heart, if you cannot express, then you are not perfect. You must express what is within your heart very clearly. Not that I have got something within my heart and I cannot express. That means my knowledge is imperfect.
Carol: So often our understanding moves sort of separately the emotional, the heart.
Prabhupāda: Emotion is not required for scientific knowledge. Emotion is not. Useless. It must be factual. Emotion is no use. Emotion is useful in high, ecstatic love. Not for scientific study of something you require emotion. No.
Carol: In the bhakti way of doing things, this emotion and love are very closely entwined, aren't they?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning devotion means I should be devoted to you. Why should I be devoted to you unless you are worthy? Just like Kṛṣṇa says, "You surrender unto Me." So unless I understand that Kṛṣṇa is worth for my surrendering, He is worthy, why shall I surrender to Kṛṣṇa? If I demand, immediately you have come, that you surrender. Would you like to do that?
Prabhupāda: ...change your views victimized by these rascals. The rascals are very strong. (break) In the Sixteenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā it is said, pravṛttiṁ ca nivṛttiṁ janā na vidur āsurāḥ. Asura. Asura, demons, demonic civilization, demonic people, they do not know what is pravṛtti and what is nivṛtti. Pravṛtti means material civilization, and nivṛtti means spiritual civilization. The modern man does not know. They are neither educated about this pravṛtti and nivṛtti. And we are speaking on nivṛtti, and all of them are in the pravṛtti. So they cannot understand. It is foreign to them. They have no idea what is spiritual life, spiritual civilization. Five thousand years ago Kṛṣṇa spoke of all these things very clearly. Later on, the things, from the beginning of Kali-yuga, the things are deteriorating, and therefore different types of religion has sprung up. The Buddhism, Christianism, Mohammedanism. They are not perfect understanding of religious principle. And gradually the number of so-called religious section are increasing. Our Mr. Nanda is presenting another religion, mānava-dharma. Everyone is manufacturing. And Vivekananda is supporting, "Yes, every type of religious system is as good." This is nonsense. Actually, they do not know what is religion.
Prabhupāda: Believing, that is one thing. Believe in father. Everyone has got father. But if you do not know who is your father, what does he do, then that is not perfect knowledge. It is a fact: without father, nobody is born. So even your child has not seen who is her father, but it is a fact that there is a father. But she or he must know who is he, what is his nature, what does he do. And that is perfect knowledge. Simply to know "I have got a father" is not perfect knowledge. I must know who is that father, what does he do, where does he live. That is perfect knowledge. Otherwise it is assumed that every man has got a father. Without father, how you can come into existence? That's a fact. But if he does not know who is actually his father, that is imperfect knowledge. What do you think, the nature of God?
Prabhupāda: That's it. So God being all spirit, His energy is also spirit. His energy cannot be different. But in this material energy we forget God. Therefore it is called material. If we know that this wood is also energy of God, that is spiritual understanding. And if we think that wood has come independently from any other source, that is material. In the Vedānta-sūtra this is discussed in the beginning athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about the Absolute Truth. The answer is janmādy asya yataḥ: (SB 1.1.1) "The Absolute Truth is that, or is the source of everything, Absolute Truth." So there are two things, material and spiritual. So both are coming from God. Just like darkness and light, two sides of the sun. So when there is light, we call day; when it is darkness, we call night. But they are simply two sides of the sun, the supreme light, or the material light. Similarly, material is darkness, and spiritual is light. Both sides. Sometime it is said "The spiritual is the front side of God, and material is the back side of God."
So your back side or front side, they are the same. So similarly... Therefore this pantheism, they say, "Why should we take? This is back side? Everything is God." That is their philosophy. They say that everything is God, pantheism. But that is not perfect knowledge. Everything is God, and again, everything is not God.
Prabhupāda: But where is the education about God? Simply, trust is also good, very good, but simple trust will not endure unless you know scientifically what is God. Everyone knows that he has got a father, but he does not know who is his father. That knowledge is not perfect. Everyone who is born in this material world must have a father, but that is not sufficient suggestion. One must know who is father. That education is lacking.
Lt. Mozee: Do you feel, sir, that it is lacking only here in the United States?
Prabhupāda: Everywhere.
Lt. Mozee: Everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. This is the age of forgetting God. We say it is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means the age of misunderstanding. And that is, I said, dirty things within the heart. So God is so powerful that if we chant the holy name of God, then we become purified. So our movement is based on this principle, chant the holy name of God. We give all facilities to everyone without any distinction that "You come with us. Come in our temple, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and take little prasādam, refreshment, and gradually you become purified." So if the government authorities give us facilities for this business, that we hold mass saṅkīrtana, Hare Kṛṣṇa, and give them little prasādam, then we are sure the whole place will change.
Prabhupāda: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; deductive logic is perfect. (break) ...logic means śrota-panthā, paramparā, śruti, Vedic language, śruti. Śruti pramāṇa. Pramāṇa means evidence, and śruti means Veda. Pratyakṣa, anumāna, śruti. Pratyakṣa means direct, direct evidence, and anumāna, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And śruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, śruti-pramāṇa is accepted as supreme, neither anumāna nor pratyakṣa. Pratyakṣa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumāna, guessing, that is also not perfect. And śruti, we take śruti from the perfect person, Kṛṣṇa. He says, aham evāsam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply.
Prabhupāda: That is their theory. Then there is no more difference. In the preliminary stage, when I am not perfect, I am worshiping some imaginary form of God. But when I become perfect there is no need of worshiping, I become one with God. This is impersonal. Now, actually, the Supreme has no form so they recommend whichever form you like to worship you can select out of these five. But their destination is the same. So somebody likes "I worship Śiva," somebody says "I worship Gaṇeśa," somebody says, "I worship Durgā," and Sūrya, or somebody says, "I worship Viṣṇu." So this Vaiṣṇava is impersonalist. You'll find amongst smārta brāhmaṇas there are also some of them Vaiṣṇavas, but they are impersonalists.
Prabhupāda: To another dog appreciates like that. (laughter)
Rāmeśvara: (break) ...philosophy is that originally God's creation is not perfect. It is... Nature is very wild, and man can make it perfect.
Prabhupāda: You have not come to that perfection, so you are not important. (break) ...Muslim country there is a word, khodaka upar kimvar dhari. (?) Khoda (?) means God. These rascals want to go above God. (break)
Jayādvaita: ...tees have remarked that since you have come to Los Angeles, the Deity has increased in beauty many times, Kṛṣṇa. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...my anxiety, that in my absence you may neglect Deity worship. Then the whole thing will be spoiled. That is my anxiety.
Prabhupāda: We have no eyes to see. We see through Kṛṣṇa. As Kṛṣṇa sees, we see. This is Kṛṣṇa conscious. We are not perfect. Our position is that we are not perfect. But we are perfect so long we follow Kṛṣṇa, that's all. Just like I am blind man. I am not perfect. But if you have got eyes, if you take me I follow you. Then I am perfect. Kṛṣṇa assures that "You surrender to Me and I will make you free from all dangers," and we accept Kṛṣṇa. That's all. Our method is very easy. The child is walking, unable to walk, falling down. The parents say, father says, "My dear child, just catch my hand." Then he's safe. These Māyāvādīs, they go against the verdict of God. God says that "The living entities are My part and parcel," and they say, "I am God." So that is their foolishness. Part and parcel... Kṛṣṇa says, mamaivaṁso jīva-bhutaḥ (BG 15.7). Otherwise why God says, "Surrender unto Me," if you are equal with Him? Why God is asking, "Surrender unto Me"? You are not equal. You are rascal. You are claiming that "I am equal." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. "You surrender unto Me." And this knowledge of surrender comes, Kṛṣṇa says, bahūnāṁ janmanām: "This rascal is always thinking 'I am God, God, God.' This rascaldom is finis
Harikeśa: That's just some story. Why should we believe it? There's nothing else to believe. Why not believe this Darwin?
Prabhupāda: No, but you are not believing Bible. Bible, they say that the earth is square. So nobody is believing. So one point is sufficient, that it is not perfect. One point is sufficient.
Harikeśa: (laughing) It says the earth is square?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they… They say it. Formerly they believed that.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Probably does.
Harikeśa: Oh, you mean flat.
Prabhupāda: You’ll fall down. If you go very far, you’ll fall down. Just like a child thinks. Bible, so many have been proved not authorized. Therefore Bible is not authorized.
Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate (BG 6.41). He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim (SB 1.5.17). This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being.
Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire—"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?
Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect...
Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative.
Jñāna: What about like Mahārāja Bhārata?
Prabhupāda: That was also. If Mahārāja Bhārata... It was punishment and reward also. Mahārāja Bhārata, although he became a deer, he remembered that he was such and such exalted position but "I became attached to the deer and I forgot my regular duties." Mahārāja Bhārata, he became so much attached to the deer, he forgot his regular duties. Therefore he was punished. But he remembered that "I was in such exalted position. On account of my attachment to the deer I have fallen." Therefore he rectified himself so that in his next life he became completely silent so that "I may not fall down," Jada Bhārata. This association, material association, is so dangerous, so he remained just like a dull madman. That's all. He was talking with nobody; he was not mixing with anybody. Whatever one would do, he did not protest, but his knowledge was full.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is not perfect.
Harikeśa: They say, "From everybody according to their means and to everybody according to their needs." As you work...
Prabhupāda: Then why there are so many enemies? Why the Americans do not like them, Chinese do not like them?
Devotee (3): Now they write in the mod... I see in the modern textbook in the Delhi schools. They make counterproposal. They said, "Because the Indian philosophy is not so perfect, India has become economically backwards on account of following the..."
Prabhupāda: What economical backwards?
Devotee (3): They say India is very poor country.
Prabhupāda: Then where is equality?
Ambarīṣa: That's why the Chinese and the Russians don't get along. The Chinese say that the Russians have diverted from Marxism.
Prabhupāda: They will have to divert because both, either Chinese or Russian, these are all rascaldom. It is not perfect system.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But the chairman of the Russian Communist Party, Mr. Brezhnev, he has about fifteen foreign cars. Each time a foreign dignitary goes, he gives him a special car. So everyone is supposed to be equal, but he is not equal. He has fifteen cars for himself. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...clean city. (break) It is not the same New Delhi as five or ten years before. Huh?
Tejās: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How long you are here?
Tejās: Five years, four and a half years.
Prabhupāda: So what do you think?
Tejās: Everything is deteriorating.
Harikeśa: Vṛndāvana is much cleaner than this, and they are supposed to be very poor.
Prabhupāda: Because in Vṛndāvana there are less rascals and here it is full of rascals. That is the difference.
Dr. Patel: He is, was a mahaprabhu. Not for us...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. That is the criterion, that if one is perfect devotee, then it is all right. And so long he is not or she is not perfect devotee, then there is restriction.
Dr. Patel: In the sādhana stage.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...it is the sādhana, completely sādhana (Hindi), then he is, everything is... Sama sarveṣu bhūteṣu.
Prabhupāda: For kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Dr. Patel: Sarve sameṣu bhūteṣu. We are not sarve sama as yet.
Prabhupāda: So it depends on the condition.
Prabhupāda: But if it is not perfect, how it will work?
Harikeśa: Not possible.
Prabhupāda: And experiment means, those who are making experiment, they do not know where is the perfect thing. The same example, that if you make experiment about understanding who is your father, it will all fail. How long you'll go on inquiring, ask any old man, "Sir, are you my father?" Or will this process be successful at any time? Without consulting your mother, if you simply go on asking all old men, "Sir, are you my father?" And if somebody falsely says, "Yes, I am your father," is that successful inquiry? This is going on.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of their radios? Do you think that their radios are perfect? Do you think so? What, Acyutānanda Mahārāja? Radio perfect? It is not perfect.
Acyutānanda: And I think the demigods and higher beings, they can disturb all their radio attempts.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that...
Acyutānanda: Because they don't want trespassers.
Prabhupāda: ...how you can accept their radio machine are perfect? Because it is made by imperfect person, so how it can be perfect? If the manufacturer is imperfect, how he can make perfect machine? Nothing is perfect.
Prabhupāda: So unless you come.... According to your idea, unless you come to that emptiness, you are not perfect. But that will never come.
Indian man (2): Then only it will be empty.
Prabhupāda: That will never come. Therefore it is bogus. You cannot...
Indian man (2): In the beginning it is bogus, but the result is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. In the beginning bogus and it is always bogus, because mind cannot be without thought. So why do you propose "without thought"? That is not possible. Therefore it is bogus.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What is the beauty of having emptiness?
Prabhupāda: That is another.... Emptiness mean he is troubled by so many anxieties; therefore he wants to make it empty.
Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.
Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's always a hypothesis.
Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking. We are not perfect. We are also ordinary human being, but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all.
Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America...
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other.... That is...
Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel...
Prabhupāda: If you accept.... We are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking.
Hṛdayānanda: So that means that the more we learn material education, (we're) just becoming more and more foolish.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Material education means mūḍha. This is also material education, the movement of the sun. But they are not perfect.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, if the earth is moving so fast, why isn't everything blown off?
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Bhavānanda: Why are we not blown off the surface of this planet? Now it's moving so fast. How are we able to remain here and not be blown off?
Prabhupāda: I do not follow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: With the help of the telescope, then their eyes become perfect to an extent.
Prabhupāda: To ext... That is not perfect. As soon as you say, "to extent," that means imperfect. Perfect to the point, that is perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Limitedly perfect.
Prabhupāda: That is not perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your philosophy will be very unpopular with the general masses, Prabhupāda, because you are condemning everyone.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because they are fools and rascals.
Prabhupāda: This is the real point. All other points besides this, they are Rāvaṇa's point. (Break) ...adjust things, taking Sītā from the clutches of one Rāvaṇa to the another Rāvaṇa. The material... At the present moment... Just like the Communist. They are trying to take away money from the capitalists. So this process is taking Sītā from clutches of Rāvaṇa, and it goes to another Rāvaṇa. Because both of them are Rāvaṇa, so there is no meaning to it. There will be no benefit. It has failed already. The Communist movement, it is simply now Lordism (?). Just like there are many rogues and dacoits. They plunder money and sometimes give to the poor. So this is another edition of the same thing, one Rāvaṇa to another Rāvaṇa. Just like Ramakrishna Mission-daridra-nārāyaṇa-theory only, and that is also not perfect. It cannot be perfect. Communist theory is to take the money from the capitalists and distribute it to the poor, to the mass people.
Prabhupāda: But you do not like to die. Why do you die with your material knowledge? Nobody wants to die but why you die? Then where is your material knowledge. You do not like to be old man. Where is your material knowledge that you can stop old age? Then you have to accept that your material knowledge is not perfect. Why you are so much proud of this false knowledge? Unnecessarily.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They accept a better theory when it is presented.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is presented. This is the beginning, that "Your knowledge is imperfect. You are believing your eyes, but that is not perfect knowledge. You have to see with knowledge." Paśyati jñāna... Paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣā. Śāstra-cakṣuṣāt. That is seeing, not seeing like a child. A child is seeing, a motor car is running, a airplane is running. He thinks a wonderful machine, but it is not the machine. It is the pilot. It is the driver. A child cannot see it. The father knows that it is not the machine. The machine may be however perfectly made; it cannot run. There must be a perfect pilot also. Just like we get on aeroplane. There are hundreds of men. If there is any trouble, then the pilot can stop it, not the hundreds of men.
Prabhupāda: You can become perfect if you follow a perfect leader. That's all.
Lokanātha: Just like some gurus say there is no need of guru.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The trouble is, their system is not perfect. Our system is...
Prabhupāda: How it can be? Because the leader who introduced this system is a rascal, so how the system can be perfect?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like you pointed out yesterday that Communism holds that everyone should have an equal right, but, you pointed out, then why do they limit that simply to human beings?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's means... Purge out means it is not perfect.
Madhudviṣa: No, they will say that in any system...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Madhudviṣa: ...over the years they are dealing with millions of people.
Prabhupāda: No, but if I can give you any system which is perfect, why you'll not accept it? Why you are so fool?
Madhudviṣa: Then, if you can give a system that people will not deviate?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Madhudviṣa: Any system people can deviate from...
Prabhupāda: No, no, deviate, that you have got independence to deviate from anything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they'll say their system is also perfect, but there's some that don't follow.
Trivikrama: No, but their system is not perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That you have to establish.
Bhāgavata: So it didn't save the man who created it. The man who founded the philosophy, it didn't save him.
Madhudviṣa: What does it mean the saving? He died like everyone else.
Trivikrama: Saving means saving from lust and all these things. There's so much... They're servants of their senses.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Everyone requires leader, yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is a fact.
Prabhupāda: So do you like to accept it, that disease? Therefore it has been condemned, prāyaścitta. Perhaps you have read it in the beginning of Sixth Canto. Prāyaścitta... Parīkṣit Mahārāja condemned, "What is the use of this Vedic prāyaścitta if it is suffering, again and again? Then what is the use?" That he has condemned. But prāyaścitta vimarśanam. Therefore the rascal should be given knowledge that "You are attacked with some disease. Very good. You are injected with some medicine. You are cured. Then again you are attacked. So why you are going in this way? Stop it." And that is knowledge. That knowledge is also not perfect, because even a man in knowledge, he knows that "If I go to prostitute, I'll be attacked with syphilitic poison, and last time I had the same trouble. I had to spend so much money." But still he'll go, because he has no knowledge. So even one has no knowledge, if he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he becomes detestful: "Oh..." That is the, mean, gift of bhakti.
Prabhupāda: That is not scientist, that he..., "maybe, perhaps..." That is not scientist.
Pañca-draviḍa: Well, they only accept what they can confirm by experimentation.
Prabhupāda: That means their experiment is not perfect. Their observation is not perfect-vague idea. So how he can become a scientist? That is no scientist.
Pañca-draviḍa: What is the position of one who accepts God, that there is.... (break) (end)
Prabhupāda: But they are making.... Just like I possess something, now their possession is.... Now you possess something. We are not reaching the point of God. So it is expanded selfishness. It is not perfect. Perfection will come when they understand that everything is possessed by God. Then that is.... Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). When they come to that conclusion.
Dr. Patel: They have started doing. Even grammar is good. They have started studying Upaniṣad in earnest now. I read an article on that, Russian newspapers, studying the philosophy of Vedas and Upaniṣads. (break)
Prabhupāda: They said Rāmāyaṇa by Tulasī dāsa, translated in English, and it was finished within a week. They have got little sympathy for Indian culture.
Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja has criticized mauna-vrata, like that. They have got so.... (break) ...scientists were not perfect in the past, they are not perfect now, and they will continue to remain imperfect. He has written clearly.
Dr. Patel: So this, our science, is a science of māyā. Not the science of spirit. Am I right?
Prabhupāda: No.
Dr. Patel: The science deals with all the earthly things.
Prabhupāda: Even an earthly thing, that does not mean you shall commit mistake. Two plus two equal to four, that is earthly thing. But if you make two plus two equal to five...
Dr. Patel: One.
Prabhupāda: That is not...
Dr. Patel: If you make two plus two is equal to one, then that is spiritual. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: No, no. Apart from spiritual, they are talking and again changing. Sometimes they say two plus two equal to four, sometimes they say two plus two equal to five, and then next they say two plus two equal to three. This is going on. So where is you truth? (break) ...the mūḍhas.
Prabhupāda: It is not for you. Kṛṣṇa says that "This is material; this is spiritual. This is superior; this is inferior." He is analyzing. There is no question of.... We have forgotten, therefore He is reminding, but still, we'll not take. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: No, but still, we know that.... I mean, we know that this body is not we. We are jīvas. Still, every moment we know; still, we forget to act accordingly. That is what I mean to say, sir. We don't act accordingly.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That means the knowledge is not perfect. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sthita prajñā.
Prabhupāda: Everything is explained so nicely in the Bhagavad-gītā. If you take simply, then you become man of knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Nijam ātmānaṁ brāhmaṇa-rūpam (?)(Sanskrit) But still, even at that time also, we think of what. That is a misfortune.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Dr. Patel: People. I also.
Prabhupāda: No, no. A devotee never thinks "I am body." "The body is mine, or body is given to me. So this body is given by Kṛṣṇa. Let this body be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service." Then it is all right. Both the prakṛtis, parā-prakṛti and aparā, is Kṛṣṇa's. So even if you say that spiritually you can serve, but this is also Kṛṣṇa's prakṛti. You cannot reject the body and simply take the soul. That is not possible. It is now combination. So the body, karmaṇā manasā vācā. So we are not rejecting this body. Why? This is also Kṛṣṇa's. How can I reject it? Kṛṣṇa's things must be engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. This is real philosophy. You cannot say, "This is not Kṛṣṇa's." What is not Kṛṣṇa's? Everything is Kṛṣṇa's.
Prabhupāda: ...of birth and death. It will depend on my action.
Guest (3): Exactly. Will you agree with this point, that we are not perfect?
Prabhupāda: Well, anyone who follows the order of God, he is perfect. Otherwise all are...
Guest (3): Can you be completely perfect and follow the orders perfectly?
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not? Just like what is the order of God? God wants that "You shall always think of Me, 'The God is my Supreme Father.' " So what is the difficulty? Now, if you think, "God is the Supreme. God is the Supreme Father," if you think like that, where is the difficulty?
Guest (4): We believe that God is Supreme, He is like you say. But we believe we are constantly striving to become perfect, every day.
Prabhupāda: No, why constantly striving? God says that "You think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Him unless I am disobedient? I can think of God always. There is no difficulty. There is no expenditure. There is no disadvantage. But if I am rascal, I'll disobey. That is the.... If I am rascal, then I will disobey. I will not think of God. I'll think of something else.
Guest (2): I'm not perfect. This is not temporary.
Prabhupāda: So you bring some flesh from slaughterhouse and glorify it.
Guest (2): Could I ask a question? I was told, if I'm not right, that down there in a section of your temple you worship the workmanship of flesh. A man made it.
Prabhupāda: We never do that. Who told you? Who is the rascal?
Guest (2): Well, it was one of your followers.
Guru-kṛpā: He's interpreting that to be the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guru-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of the Deity.
Prabhupāda: Of Deity?
Guru-kṛpā: That is his interpretation of what is the Deity, that it is man-made, matter.
Guest (2): Is it?
Prabhupāda: You do think that, that the form of God is man-made?
Guest (2): Well, all I can.... I just.... That's my feeling.
Prabhupāda: That may be your feeling, but that does not mean that is our feeling.
Prabhupāda: Nature.... But we also say, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni (BG 3.27). So it is to be understood that it is being done under superior control. If nature is doing, so nature is superior control. He cannot explain. So if he does not know how nature is working, then what is the value of his theory? If he says that he cannot explain how nature is doing, that means he is not expert. He may be mistaken. So why his opinion or decision should be taken final? He does not know how nature is working. That is not perfect knowledge. Does he say like that, "Nature is working"?
Guru-kṛpā: Nature.
Prabhupāda: So how nature is working, he does not know. Then his knowledge is imperfect. Nature is working how, that we know. That is very sober understanding. We say that nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). Nature.... We see nature. Generally we have got idea of the material nature, that the sun is one of the part and parcel of nature's working. The moon is also, the seasonal changes. So many things, nature is working very systematically. The summer season will appear exactly in the month of June and July. The fall begins in September every year. One can foretell that "Next September this will happen," because nature's routine is very fixed up. So this systematic work of nature, how it is possible if there is no supervision?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system...
Prabhupāda: No, no, system.... If the.... You cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that will be corrected by education.
Prabhupāda: Education.... That means what is that education?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the.... They don't.... Of course, we say education means Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body.... You can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body, individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one.... Works. Immediately the plane becomes.... It is.... So you must know where to touch. If.... I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down. "Ohhh." So finished.
Prabhupāda: Then you are.... As soon as you say "making research," then you are not perfect. Don't say that you are scientist. You are student. Don't say that you are scientist. And you are declaring, "There is no authority, nothing." Why do you speak all this nonsense? Because you are not scientist. You are making research. That's all right. When you complete your research—you come to the conclusion—then call yourself as scientist. Why, as a student, neophyte, you are claiming as "scientist"? Why misleading people? You do not know anything, how things are going on, and you are claiming you are scientist. Our point is, "Don't do this, misleading propaganda. You are not scientist. We protest against this false propaganda. Why you are making.... You do not know anything. You cannot solve any problem, major problem, so why you are claiming scientist? Stop this as a gentleman." (break) And there is the soul within the body, and when the soul is gone, transferred to another body, it is dead. Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). One who is actually scientist, he is not surprised. He knows the soul has transferred to another body. That's all.
Prabhupāda: Then you are not perfectly Kṛṣṇa's aṁśa. Kṛṣṇa has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Rāmeśvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Kṛṣṇa give it to me anyway?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). I shall give you all comforts."
Rāmeśvara: Kṛṣṇa knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ignorance.
Rāmeśvara: ...or ignorance, then you're missing the reality of life and you're living in an illusion. Due to your senses you're living, you could live, be living in illusion. The senses are not perfect instruments for understanding reality. There is another process for understanding reality. The senses are not perfect. Therefore one should not depend upon the senses to understand reality. There is a greater process.
Richard: And how is that found?
Prabhupāda: You find out this verse: sukham ātyantikaṁ yat tad atīndriyaṁ grāhyam.
Rāmeśvara: What's the second word, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Sukham ātyantikam.
Prabhupāda: Everyone tries. That is not a particular job for you. Everyone is trying; the cats and dogs, they are also trying. The cat also very much anxious to give protection to the cubs, innocent, helpless. The dog also giving. The birds, they're bringing food for the offspring, and as soon as the mother comes, they become very much engladdened, "Oh, here is food, here is food." And they, with the mouth, they.... So this kind of sentiment is there even in the cats, dogs, animals, birds, beasts. That is natural. But we do not know how to do actual welfare activity. Somebody's engaged with his family. Somebody is engaged with his own body. Somebody.... This is only development of consciousness. The animals, they are interested with the body, himself. The human being, they are interested with the extension of the body. Just like I am alone now. Now when I become, you young men, then I have got my wife, then my interest is also for my wife. The wife's interest is for the husband. In this way, children, then interest extended, husband, wife, children. Then, this is family-wise. Then little advancement, of the society. Little advancement, community. Just like in your country, the sense of black community, white community. Then, above that, for the nation. When there is war between America and other nation, then you black and white people forget the small interest for national interest. You advance to fight, to lay down your life. So in this way we can make progress, but such progress is not perfection. Such progress is not perfection.
Prabhupāda: So here is definitive knowledge, in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There's no question of "I believe" or "You believe." No. What you are, your belief? You may believe wrongly. You are not perfect. They do not accept this, that every one of the conditioned souls is imperfect with four defects: illusion, committing mistake, cheating, and imperfectness of senses. Who will say it is not? It is. If you have got imperfect senses, then what is the use of your belief? If the child says "Oh, there is no father. I have never seen my father," does it mean there is no father? Because you are child, because you have got mother, there must be father, you believe or not believe. So these rascals say "I don't believe in God." Why? As it is inevitable—the mother is there, the child is there—there must be father. You may not know him, but you can know him through your mother. But must be father. There is no question of "I don't believe there is father." No, that cannot be (indistinct) It is like that, everything fact. No question of belief. You believe or not believe, there is father. Similarly, these rascals nowadays, they say "We don't believe in God." You believe or not believe, God is there. Who cares for your believe or not believe? The same way: the mother is there, the child is there; there must be father. There is no argument.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, this is one way of studying, but when you have studied the chemicals, combine them and bring a human life. Science means observation and experiment. Simply observing, analyzing that it is a combination of chemi..., that is not perfect science. When you... This is theory. When you practically bring into action, that is called practical... What is called?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Experimentation?
Prabhupāda: No, no, in science there are two con..., theoretical and practical. So theoretical knowledge is no perfect. When you bring it in practical action, then it is science. In the scientific laboratory, they do not simply theorize; they test it in the laboratory. That is science. If you cannot test it by combination of the chemicals which you have analyzed in your..., then it is failure, is it not?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.
Prabhupāda: Their seeing is not perfect. Now it is up to you scientists to answer all these. What is this picture?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The Rādhā-ramaṇa Prabhu from Atlanta temple, I requested him to complete this after Prabhupāda's instruction. You were saying yesterday, so I just wanted to show to Prabhupāda to see how...
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They sent one sample, Bhaktivedanta Institute, the emblem. And they had wanted to include some Sanskrit slogan, perhaps, and you'd mentioned athāto brahma jijñāsā, so they have done that and decorated little bit.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. This is... Is this style acceptable to Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can do. Where is wrong? Or you can...
Prabhupāda: Christian doctrine is not perfect. But symptoms of animal and symptoms of human being, primary necessities eating sleeping, mating, defense that is there, everywhere.
Rūpānuga: They may agree, but they'll say that this...
Prabhupāda: There is soul. As soon as there is living condition, there is soul. As soon as the body is dead, there is no soul. This is difference. It is the Christian doctrine, not scientific doctrine, that animal has... What we have to do with Christian theory?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have poor understanding of the nature of the soul.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Christianity, they speak of...
Prabhupāda: It is not very advanced.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also the dictionary definition is not perfect.
Bali-mardana: The first time I heard Kṛṣṇa was from Allen Ginsberg.
Prabhupāda: He went to India?
Bali-mardana: And he learned it from you.
Hari-śauri: Generally in the dictionary they say Kṛṣṇa is one of the Hindu trilogy, gods. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...moha janmani.(?) This world is anitya; you cannot stay here. That is sure, and still we are attached. We make so many arrangements...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, a man sees that his father has died—everyone is dying—why does he believe that he will not die?
Prabhupāda: That is the wonderful thing. Kim āścaryam ataḥ param. Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja said. He was asked, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world?" So he replied, "This is the most wonderful thing, that everyone sees that everyone is dying, he's thinking 'I shall not die.' This is the most wonderful thing."
Prabhupāda: But we are trying to educate the prisoners that "Your life is not perfect within the jail. Your life is perfect without the jail." This is our education.
Interviewer: Life is not perfect in the jail.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And the person in the jail they are thinking, "What is this, they are not working for the jail life?"
Interviewer: Person in the jail, I didn't get that.
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot understand that there is life after jail. They are so fool, rascal that they cannot understand that without jail one can live.
Hari-śauri: Self-interest.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is very important thing. That is important, yes. But love means two persons, there is exchange. Giving something, taking something, feeding something and to eat something, and speaking everything, no secrecy, and to know everything of the other person. When these things are transacted, then there is love. Dadāti pratigṛhṇāti bhuṅkte bhojayate caiva guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati. If I love you and if I have got some secrecy, I don't disclose to you, that is not perfect love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. This is one of the basic principles. I shall invite you to eat with me and I shall accept your invitation to eat with me. I shall give you some presentation, you shall give me some presentation. In this way love develops. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there. Otherwise, where there is question of love? To appreciate God is great, that is not love. That is simply appreciation. But when we actually give everything to God and take everything from Him, you talk with Him of your mind, He talks with you. You give Him to eat and whatever He gives you eat. In this way there is question of love. Simply appreciation of the greatness of God, that is good, in God consciousness, but that is not love. The love stage is different.
Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the māyākāra is not there. But the divyākāra is there as we say. Let us understand him.
Prabhupāda: No, He... Nirākāra is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirākāra. But that nirākāra does not mean that I am also nirākāra. That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the śāstra. The Absolute Truth is person ultimately.
- vadanti tat tattva-vidas
- tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
- brahmeti paramātmeti
- bhagavān iti śabdyate
- (SB 1.2.11)
So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirākāra, they are in the, just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedānta. That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedānta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ (BG 15.15). If one does not know Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point . He does not know what is Vedānta. The veda-anta means Kṛṣṇa. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate. Bhagavān. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavān, Kṛṣṇa, he's not a Vedāntist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Pṛthu-putra: Because they are convinced already about this through the Koran. They already accept God is one, and He's possessing all fame, all beauty. But they say... The only point is that He cannot come down to the earth because the earth is a planet of sin.
Prabhupāda: No, that is your not perfect conception. If He is almighty and He's all-powerful, why you restrict Him?
Pṛthu-putra: They say, "No, He's not restricted. But when He has to reveal Himself He reveals to the prophet. This is the reason why Muhammad received the instruction from God."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. But you cannot say that He does not come to showing mercy to a prophet. He may come if He likes. That is mission. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnām (BG 4.8). One who is actually devotee, prophet, he's always anxious to see what they (indistinct). So in order to favor them, (Sanskrit). What is their proposition?
Pṛthu-putra: In the story of Koran they say Muhammad once asked to see God, and God's answer was, "You're not able to see Me."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. At least he could hear Him. So that is possible. Not that necessarily one has to see Him, but he can hear Him. Now, you have said that Muhammad heard Him, so God can speak. So you can hear. So where is the objection?
Prabhupāda: What is that information?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're trying to find some imperfection, but they cannot.
Prabhupāda: We are not perfect. We're trying to be perfect.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's just like the Christian church. The book may be very good, but if someone doesn't follow it doesn't mean their religion is bad.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they cannot condemn our religion. The books are perfect. (someone brings some prasāda)
Prabhupāda: Ne, one or two will do. Why so many? That's... So what benefit he has got, this Manasvī?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually he is at a great loss. Any position he had here when he was a devotee, he has lost everything. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...with this lantern? Electricity was introduced when we were boy, and that also not every house could provide electricity. Formerly they used to utilize gas, coal gas. If one man has got gaslight in his house, he is considered to be rich man. And gas... Mantle... Formerly electricity was... What is that? Carbon? Two carbon? In the morning it has to be changed. That Mahatma Gandhi Road was Harrison Road. So in our childhood, when the carbon would be changed, they would throw. We shall collect it.
Prabhupāda: "Who are you? What is your identification? That you do not know. Rather, we are teaching that identifying yourself with this body, you have lost your identity. That is brain. (pause) If you say 'beyond our intelligence,' that means you have no brain. And we can explain. Therefore we have got brain. (pause) You have so many technical insti..." That I challenged in the M.T. (M.I.T.), that "Where is your..., that technology that when a dead man is stopped, you can replace life by technology? Where is that department?" They could not answer. Technology means the car has stopped. Go to the expert. He will repair it and do the needful. Again you will run on. That is technology. And where is that technology? As soon you say "beyond our intelligence," then don't talk nonsense. Your intelligence is not perfect. So where is your brain? This very point will solve. "You have no brain."
Prabhupāda: Who is come? Let him out.(?)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a painting that one boy has done here which is not perfectly done, and he wants to get your advice on it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I cannot give him advice on painting. I have no experience. He should go to the painter.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He's the boy who did that painting of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa that's outside where your vyāsāsana is. He wants to know how to fix it.
Prabhupāda: Don't waste time like that. If he wants to paint, he should join the painters.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In L.A.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Can't hear.
Young man (3): ...so then how are we to perceive God? With what bodily platform do we perceive...?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His question is that if we accept that the senses, the body and the mind are not perfect, they're limited, then with what means are we to perceive God?
Prabhupāda: You perceive according to the instruction of Gītā. Just like a child. He does not know how to use the senses. He is going to touch fire or something dangerous, to catch a snake. It is the duty of the father: "No, my dear child, don't do that. It is dangerous." You have to follow him. If you become "self"—"I am self alone"—then bother yourself. Our Vedic injunction is not "self." Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In order to reform you
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even if it's a work which you have not yet translated yourself.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no, the principle is... Just like my translation, another person translating into Hindi or other languages, we are publishing. Similarly, if somebody has translated properly, it can be published. But amongst our disciples, I don't think there are many who can translate properly.
Rāmeśvara: None. We're not eager to publish anything which is not perfect, because you have already set the highest standard for the BBT. The name BBT means the highest standard right now in the world.
Prabhupāda: That is good answer.
Kīrtanānanda: Therefore, Śrīla Prabhupāda, we think that you cannot leave us very soon.
Prabhupāda: I don't want. But if I am obliged, what can I do?
Kīrtanānanda: If you don't want, Kṛṣṇa will not want.
Prabhupāda: A realized soul, must be. Otherwise, simply by imitating A-B-C-D will not help. My purports are liked by people because it is presented as practical experience. (aside:) It is within the mouth.
Correspondence
1967 Correspondence
Most probably everything will be alright by the end of this week and I am start for your country by Monday next via Japan. Anyway, I am reaching your place as soon as possible. In the meantime have some patience till my arrival. I am very sorry that Subala das has assumed such air of importance. We should always remember that we are on the path of perfection, but we are not perfect. If Subala das or anyone thinks that he has attained perfection he will be wrongly directed. I have asked you all to address your Godbrothers as prabhu. This prabhu means boss. If everyone of us thinks of his fellow worker as boss there is no question of misunderstanding. The mistake is that being addressed as boss or prabhu one thinks himself as exactly Prabhu or the boss. One should not forget himself as humble servant even though one is addressed as prabhu. The spiritual master is offered respects as they are offered to the Supreme Lord.
1968 Correspondence
The ignorant people they do not understand either Christian philosophy or Hindu philosophy. If somebody makes distinction between Hindu or Christian philosophy, he is not a philosopher. He can not say the sun is the Indian sun because it shines in India, or it's the American sun because it shines in America. But actually the sun is the same sun. Similarly, God is the same either for Hindus or Christians; one who does not understand it does not understand God. The Christian philosophy says God is great, we say how God is great. Simply to know that God is great is not perfection, but to know how He is great is perfect knowledge.
At the present moment, Ravi Sankaraji may be getting huge amount of remuneration in exchange for his nice musical art, but that will be finished with the end of this body. Many men come here and by their talents, earn huge amounts of money, but it remains here, and he goes alone with his works only to accept another different kind of body, forgetting everything behind. But if he acquires some spiritual assets it goes with him, and even it is not perfect in this life, it begins again from that point in next life. So we wish that Sri Ravi Sankaraji may understand this spiritual technology, and utilize his talent for benefit of the human society. We are interested for the highest benediction of the human society, otherwise we do not expect anything from anyone in monetary consideration. Simply that these influential men come along and chant with us.
1970 Correspondence
Regarding your question of an initiated person falling prey to the maya, the answer is that so long we are in this material world, there is always chance of being spoiled by Maya, so we must stick with vow to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The Spiritual Master's business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bona fide Spiritual Master his initiation does not bear any meaning. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the Spiritual Master.
Astanga Yoga is better than Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga is on the level of Astanga Yoga. But the Bhakti Yoga is the ultimate goal of all Yogas. In other words, Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, and Astanga Yoga by proper execution culminate in Bhakti Yoga. So far yogis who meditate on the Paramatma form of the Lord within their hearts, if they see Him in that way actually they become pure devotees, but if they do not perfect the process they may remain on the lower level of incomplete realization or Paramatma realization.
1971 Correspondence
So far as securing $50.00 for each initiation into Hare Krishna Mantra, that is not compulsory. The system is that after initiations, each devotee should collect some alms to the best of his capacity either cash or something else and make a presentation to the Spiritual Master. This is called daksina. Without daksina the initiation ceremony is not perfect. The collection of alms is not necessarily to be $50. It may be $500.00 or $5.00; it doesn't matter. It depends on the capacity of the initiated person. But he should try and collect to the best of his capacity and try to collect and give to the Spiritual Master.
I hope by this time you have safely reached Calcutta and are doing the needful. In Nasik Krsna has given us a nice offer; namely the host here Srimad Mahanta Deenabandhudas is offering his house and press in Vrndavana for our use. He is prepared to give both these things to us as a charitable gift. The problem is who will take charge of the house and press? But I think if Pradip and Rahul go there, things can be done, if not perfectly, still to our purpose. So please consult with them. Of course, there will be paid compositors in the press, but it requires good management.
So now you organize everything with Hamsaduta and your godbrothers there so that this Movement may be spread very effectively in Europe. For a long time our centers in Europe have been suffering for want of literature and so many things. But now I see that in England things are going very nicely, and Hamsaduta writes me that everything is improving in Germany, and I hear that new centers are being opened. This is all very good news to me, because I consider that these western countries are the most important field for our work. So now do this work in a gradually progressive manner, and do not be concerned too much even there may be some temporary setbacks. Because we are in this material world we are not perfect, and so these setbacks are natural occurrences and we should not be too much disturbed by them.
1974 Correspondence
This means that jnana alone is not good unless the jnani surrenders to Krishna. Unless one does so his knowledge is not perfect. Similarly at the end of the Bhagavad gita the Lord says:
- sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja
- aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah
- (BG 18.66)
This is the ultimate goal to surrender to the Supreme Lord. This is the end of yoga.
| Page Title: | Not perfect (Conv. and Letters) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 06 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=131, Let=9 |
| No. of Quotes: | 140 |