Allen Ginsberg: Well, so tomorrow we'll be doing it. So now, the next question I had in my mind is we'll be doing kīrtana, then language, speech. Then end with kīrtana.
Prabhupāda: That is also kīrtana. Kīrtana means kīrtayati. Glorifying. That is kīrtana. So either you sing musically or you speak devotionally, both of them are kīrtana. Just like Śukadeva Gosvāmī, he continually spoke to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is also state, śrī viṣṇu... śravaṇe parīkṣit, abhavad vaiyāsakiḥ kīrtane. Vaiyasaki, the son of Vyāsadeva, Sukadeva Gosvāmī, he became liberated simply by kīrtane. But what is that kīrtana? He never played musical way. He simply explained Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. So this is also kīrtana. This is called saṅkīrtana. Bahubhir militvā kīrtayati. That is saṅkīrtana.
Allen Ginsberg: The chanting is saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Chanting, yes. Saṅkīrtana.
Allen Ginsberg: Well, if we have two and one half hours...
Hayagrīva: We have as long as we...
Allen Ginsberg: How long a saṅkīrtana to begin with, do you think?
Hayagrīva: The first one would last, what thirty minutes? Forty minutes? Thirty, forty minutes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Forty, forty-five. At least, half an hour beginning.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay. At least half an hour.
Prabhupāda: Last also, half an hour. One hour. And? You have got time? Two hours?
Hayagrīva: Oh, as long as you want. Nobody's going to be using that auditorium.
Prabhupāda: Then make it one hour speaking and one hour kīrtana. Or one half hour kīrtana, one hour speaking.
Allen Ginsberg: At least an hour of kīrtana, yes.
Hayagrīva: I don't know how long we will keep a big audience there. That is to say, after the first hour they might start milling out. But if we keep half an audience, that would be nice.
Allen Ginsberg: Yeah, well, half will stay. Then the other thing is what tune to use in the kīrtanas? I use several tunes.
Prabhupāda: That as you like.
Allen Ginsberg: I would like to begin with the one I've been using. Is that all right? Or do you want to end with that? Or whatever we want.
Hayagrīva: How can we get the people to join in? That's a big thing. We'd like to have the audience to join us.
Allen Ginsberg: It's an audience seated out there, huh? Let me see. How many devotees will be there?
Hayagrīva: Onstage?
Kīrtanānanda: Everyone here. More from Buffalo.
Allen Ginsberg: What I think might be a good idea is, would it be possible to have the devotees start on the stage, and then if it looks like the audience is not singing vivaciously enough, have the devotees go out and sing... Walk up and down singing?
Prabhupāda: When the audience joins, that will be very nice.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Do you have a picture of the words written out for the audience? 'Cause if they've got that...
Hayagrīva: Yes, we have that.
Allen Ginsberg: The question I'm asking basically is, one question I'm asking is, would it be all right to use the tune I've been using at one point or another?
Hayagrīva: Well, tomorrow night, if we can practice together, we can play together some...
Pradyumna: We have four drums, cymbals, and a taṁburā.
Hayagrīva: We can use yours and we can use ours. When we chant, it's easier for a large group to follow. It's very simple. First, we sing a couple of melodies. Then we can practice in a little while and see which one is (indistinct).
Allen Ginsberg: Okay.
Hayagrīva: I think once they get into the chanting, your melody might be a little difficult for them to follow. I'm not sure. Because it varies. There's variation there.
Allen Ginsberg: The problem, though, is that I've never been able to swing with it before. That's why I haven't used it. So what I would suggest is... Okay. We'll practice it tomorrow.
Hayagrīva: We can swing, I'm sure we can swing something.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. But whatever we do, we got to swing.
Hayagrīva: That's for sure. But there've been... See what you think of various melodies. We play various melodies and see how we can come out. Another thing, do you want to have responsive chanting?
Prabhupāda: Responsive chanting must be there.
Allen Ginsberg: That would be interesting, yes.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise everyone will become tired and that will be chaotic. Response. That's nice. Then the audience will respond.
Allen Ginsberg: We got into some responsive chanting last time.
Kīrtanānanda: Why don't you lead?
Prabhupāda: Huh? I can lead.
Allen Ginsberg: That's a good idea.
Prabhupāda: I can lead.
Allen Ginsberg: That's a groovy idea.
Hayagrīva: I think what we'll do is you lead the first chant, and then...
Prabhupāda: Others will respond.
Hayagrīva: And then Mr. Ginsberg can talk a little of his experiences, and then you talk. And then Mr. Ginsberg lead the second.
Prabhupāda: That's all right.
Devotee: Because Prabhupāda will be speaking for an hour, maybe Hayagrīva you can lead the first chant. You have a very nice voice too. Because he'll be speaking for an hour.
Prabhupāda: If there is time he will also speak.
Hayagrīva: Well, if he can lead the first I think that would be... The students would be...
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. If he leads the first, will they be able to have responsive chanting too? Do you want responsive chanting when you lead?
Hayagrīva: Oh yes. You'll lead, then we'll respond.
Prabhupāda: If every one of our devotee will respond, naturally the audience also will respond.
Hayagrīva: We'll have a microphone to make it easier for the audience.
Prabhupāda: Then you also one of us.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So there is nice microphone?
Hayagrīva: There will be one, two, three, four, five microphones on stage. And I have one for around your neck, one for around your neck, and if you don't like that, there are stands. But the stands can be down here, can be up here.
Allen Ginsberg: Can Peter get near one too? Can Peter get near a microphone?
Kīrtanānanda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Okay. Well, that's a very good program then. What instrument, stage instruments, do you have? Do you have a harmonium?
Hayagrīva: They're from Buffalo. Oh, we have... We have two harmoniums.
Allen Ginsberg: I think we have our harmonium also.
Hayagrīva: We have three harmoniums.
Allen Ginsberg: Same pitch?
Hayagrīva: We'll have to check that tomorrow.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes. Let's check the pitch of the harmoniums tomorrow. I've been learning to write music. My kavi guru was a poet named William Blake. Do you know Blake?
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, yes, I have heard his name.
Allen Ginsberg: So I've been writing music. He's a lot like Kabir. Yes. Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji and Bankibehari in Vṛndāvana. Do you know them at all?
Prabhupāda: Śrīmataji?
Allen Ginsberg: Śrīmata Kṛṣṇaji in Vṛndāvana, is a lady in Vṛndāvana who translates Kabir into English, compared him with Blake.
Prabhupāda: No, she is different. I know one Mātājī. She came to see me from Vṛndāvana in Los Angeles. She's in London.
Allen Ginsberg: So I have been learning to notate music, in..., singing songs by William Blake which I've written a little music to. So those are, in a way, my guru's songs.
Prabhupāda: I can give you so many songs. (laughter) Just like he can read it.
Allen Ginsberg: Are there many songs in there?
Prabhupāda: Not there. There is diacritic mark. Can you read it?
Allen Ginsberg: No. I don't think.
Prabhupāda: This, Nitāi-pada...
Allen Ginsberg: Nitāi-pada-kamala koṭi candra suśītala.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you are reading.
Allen Ginsberg: Ye chāyāya jagata jurāya. Hena nitāi vine bhāi, rādhā-kṛṣṇa pāite nāi...
Prabhupāda: Dharo nitāi... Dṛḍha kori... You can read it. It is not difficult.
Allen Ginsberg: Se sambandha nāhi jār, bṛthā janma gelo tār. What meter is that in? Da-da-da-da da-da-da, da-da-da-da...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
- se sambandha nāhi jār
- bṛthā janma gelo tār
- sei paśu boro durācār
- nitāi nā bolilo mukhe
- majilo saṁsāra sukhe
- vidyā kule ki koribe tār
I shall explain to you sometime.
Allen Ginsberg: Ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā...
Prabhupāda:
- ahaṅkāre matta hoiyā
- nitāi pada pāsariyā
- asatyere satya kori māni
- nitāiyer koruṇā habe
- braje rādhā-kṛṣṇa pābe
- dharo nitāi caraṇa du 'khāni
Allen Ginsberg: Who wrote this?
Prabhupāda: This is Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, a great poet and devotee.
Allen Ginsberg: Who?
Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.
Allen Ginsberg: You've been writing many in... A beautiful notebook.
Prabhupāda: This, I was supplied this dummy book, without printing. So I'm using it as notebook. (laughs)
Allen Ginsberg: Would you like to hear one of the Blake songs?
Prabhupāda: Blake song?
Allen Ginsberg: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not.
Allen Ginsberg: (to Peter) Do you want to sing "Tears Up"? (singing:)
- Whate'er is born of mortal birth
- Must be consumed with the earth,
- To rise from generations free,
- Then why have I to do with thee?
- The sexes sprung from shame and pride,
- Blow in the morn, in the evening die,
- But mercy change death into sleep
- The sexes rose to walk and weep.
- The mother of my mortal part
- With cruelty did'st mould my heart,
- And with false self-deceiving tears,
- Did'st bind my nostrils, eyes and ears
- Did'st close my tongue in senseless clay
- And be to mortal life betrayed.
- The death of Jesus set me free
- Then what have I to do with thee.
- It is raised, a spiritual body.
Prabhupāda: He believes in spiritual body. That's nice. (laughter)
Allen Ginsberg: It's a,...
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa Consciousness.
Allen Ginsberg: ...it's Blake's version.
Prabhupāda: (to Hayagrīva) I think you wrote one article about this?
Hayagrīva: Enlight... I think in one of the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness poetry, I mentioned Blake.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Allen Ginsberg: Yes, he apparently fits into, in the West what is called the Gnostic tradition, which has similar ideas and similar bhakti attitudes to the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Similar cosmography, cosmology. He was my teacher.
Prabhupāda: He did not give much stress on this material body.
Allen Ginsberg: No! At the end of his life, he didn't count on the material body.
Prabhupāda: So, there is a spiritual concept of life in his poetry.
Hayagrīva: Blake died on chanting. I don't know what he was chanting but he died singing.
Allen Ginsberg: He died singing.
Prabhupāda: Ahh.
Hayagrīva: He died singing something.
Allen Ginsberg: What of Blake's would in fit in, I wonder? "The Lamb?" "The Lamb" would fit. Oh, "The Chimneysweeper," yes, "The Chimneysweeper." (to Peter) Do you want to try that?
Prabhupāda: Chimney sweeper?
Allen Ginsberg: It's a song by Blake: "When my..." (to Peter) Do you need the words or, you can follow it without the words, yeah:
- When my mother died I was very young
- And my father sold me while yet my tongue
- Could scarcely cry, weep, weep, weep, weep.
- So your chimneys I sweep and in soot I sleep.
- There's little Tom Dockreb who dark cried when his head
- That curled like a lamb's back were shaved, so I said,
- "Hush Tom, never mind it for when your head's bare,
- "You know that the soot cannot spoil your white hair."
- And so he was quiet and that very night
- As Tom was asleeping he has such a sigh
- That thousands of sweepers Dick, Joe, Ned, and Jack
- Were all of them locked in coffins of black
- And by came an angel who had a bright key
- And he opened the coffins and set them all free,
- Then down a green plain, leaping, laughing they ran
- And wash in a river and shine in the sun.
- Then naked and wiped, all their bags left behind
- They rise upon clouds and sport in the wind
- And the angel told Tom if he be a good boy
- He'd have God for his father and never want joy.
- And so Tom awoke and we rose in the dark
- And God with our bags and our brushes to work
- Though the morning was cold, Tom was happy and warm
- So if all do their duty, they need not fear harm.
Did you understand the...
Prabhupāda: Some of them.
Allen Ginsberg: Well it's... The chimneysweeper is the little boy who has to go into a chimney to sweep out the soot. And the man who hired the chimneysweeper cut off all his hair, and he had beautiful hair, so his friend told him, "Never mind because when your hair is gone you know that the soot cannot spoil your pretty white hair." So if you have no hair you don't have to worry what will happen to your hair, which is a very Vaiṣṇava doctrine also.
Devotee: Excuse me, Prabhupāda, it's five to eleven now.
Allen Ginsberg: Ok. We'd better let everybody retire.
Kīrtanānanda: Here, there's a little bit of food coming.
Devotee: Ah, prasādam.
Allen Ginsberg: Oh, it's a Gnostic doctrine, if it's not Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Come on. You come, Mr. Ginsberg, take. First of all, you take. You take.
Allen Ginsberg: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Take more.
Allen Ginsberg: I have something. (end)