Professor: Did you say that for the ātman, as far as he is eternal and. For the ātman, it is a need for the things for the purpose, of ānanda.
Prabhupāda: Ānanda, yes.
Professor: That means he is required . . .
Prabhupāda: Nature, nature ānanda.
Professor: This other thing, they have it because of līlā, pleasure, playing.
Prabhupāda: That is also ānanda.
Professor: Yes, but that means that he needed it . . .
Prabhupāda: Just like somebody goes within the water. Nowadays it has become a fashion. What is that? Go within the water?
Devotee: Diving. Diving.
Prabhupāda: But he does not belong to the water, but he takes some pleasure.
Professor: He needs the pleasure. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: Therefore he's seeking pleasure. That is the real aim. Therefore he's going into the water. He has no business to go to the water, but because he is seeking pleasure—"Let me see if there is some pleasure. Experiment." That's all. But he does not get . . . just like they are going to the moon planet, moon planet, "Let us see." Because there is no ānanda, he is seeking another type of ānanda. And now they have failed. Now they're going to Venus, or what?
Devotees: Mars.
Prabhupāda: Mars. This is going on. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). He's not seeking after where is eternal happiness. He's . . . temporarily, he's seeking here, seeking there. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. In this way his life is finished, seeking ānanda, and he gets another body, another term. So his intelligence is not coming to the point that, "What is this ānanda? I am eternal. I am seeking eternal ānanda. Why this ānanda? Sometimes this body, sometimes this position, sometimes that position—what is this?" That is intelligence.
Professor: I understand it very well from the point of view of particular individual and ātmans, you know, but supreme ātma . . .
Prabhupāda: Individual, we are part and parcel. The same thing: the supreme eternal, and we, means subordinate eternal. We are of the same quality. Quality is the same but quantity different. Therefore our knowledge quantity and His knowledge quantity, different. Therefore we should take knowledge from Him who has large quantity of knowledge. We have got teeny quantity of knowledge. This is the difference. He is also cognizant, I am also cognizant, but His knowledge is vast, unlimited; my knowledge is teeny. Therefore, if I want to know more, we should know from Him. That is perfect knowledge. Tad-vijñānārtham sa gurum evābhigacchet śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12). This is the process.