They go to village to village and ask the village men, "Oh, you pray to your church, pray, 'O God, give us our daily bread,' So have you got your bread?" "No, sir." "All right. Pray to us." They have taken a truck full of bread and... "Take bread. Take bread. As much as you like." "So whom do you like?" Oh, they will naturally say, "I like you." (laughter) Because they are not intelligent enough to answer, "You rascal, wherefrom you have brought this bread, from your father's house?" (Laughter) Can you manufacture the bread in the factory, rascal? It is God's bread. But they have no intelligence. They cannot say like that. If they had presented to me, I would have at once said, "Rascal, this is not your father's bread. It is God's bread. You have stolen the property." You cannot manufacture bread or wheat. It is sent by God. That answer we have to give to these so-called Communists and rascals, godless people, that "You are not proprietor. You are all rascals. Everything belongs to God." That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So we have to present scientifically. We have to present by reason, by argument.
Factories (Conversations)
Conversations and Morning Walks
1969 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: From economic point of view, if one man has got a cow and four acres of land, he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can independently live any part of the world. Simply he must (have) one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow, there will be no economic question. All the factories will be closed.
Allen Ginsberg: Four acres, you think?
Prabhupāda: Four acres.
Allen Ginsberg: Maybe.
Prabhupāda: That I am instructing Kīrtanānanda, to show this example in New Vrindaban.
Allen Ginsberg: Are you going to be able to do it on four acres?
Kīrtanānanda: I hope so.
Prabhupāda: Is it very difficult? Four acres of land per head?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right. In the meantime, you prepare the literature. You give me the literature. I'll get it printed somehow or other. You give me the synopsis. Both you consult, make a literature. And as soon as the literature is prepared, you will be out with that. And we have got so many centers. There is no difficulty of staying. He can stay in some center and go and see the important men there. He is educated. He is learned. He has known our philosophy. He can convince people. He can arrange a big meeting of respectable men. They must know what we are doing, the importance of this movement. And your people, your government, is anxious to have something tangible because there are already frustration in so many departments, in so many factions. So this movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, will, I mean to say, smooth everything, pave everything. So they must know. And our process is very simple. We can introduce this process even in factories, even in anywhere, and we make peaceful everything. That is a fact. School, college, university, factory, everywhere.
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: Kṣatriya.
Prof. Kotovsky: From top to... From top to collective farm, for instance, is kṣatriyas. But who would be here vaiśya and who śūdra? That is the difficulty because all others will workers, workers, anywhere, factory workers, collective farm workers and so on. So from this point of view...
Prabhupāda: From this point of view...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...there is a great distinction, in my opinion, between socialist society and all societies preceding socialist because in a modern western society you can group all social professions, classes, for instance, practically, very conditionally, you know, at least you can, the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, kṣatriyas... Excuse me... Then this vaiśya, this productive class, is owners...
Prabhupāda: That is...
Prof. Kotovsky: ...of the means of production...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: ...these factory owners, for instance.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class.
Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos.
Prabhupāda: "I am equal to everyone. Nobody is my enemy; nobody is my friend. But anyone who is engaged in my service with love and devotion, I am especially attached." So Kṛṣṇa is feeding even cats and dogs, and why He shall not feed us, we are engaged in His service? Why? It is simply a question of understanding. One should know that Kṛṣṇa is feeding the elephant, Kṛṣṇa is feeding the ant. So there are 8,400,000 species of living entities. So if one who has completely forgotten Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is feeding them, then why not we? We have no other business than Kṛṣṇa. So it is a question of confidence and surrender. And actually we have no problem. So far our children are going, these boys, they are taking prasādam, we are taking prasādam, we are traveling all over the world, spending, as I told you, over 700,000's of rupees per month, but we have no source of income fixed. We have no business. Nobody goes to the factory, nobody goes to work, but still we are maintaining our establishment.
Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things, if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor? Bhagavad-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra. God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me, similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God. We therefore eat prasādam. We know that the fruit, flowers, or grains, or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory.
Dr. Weir: In the same way, how can you satisfy a person's lack of emotional content in his job by giving him more money? Half of the trouble starts with the jobs, is they have no emotive content now because there's no rapport between them and their boss. They have practically no intellectual interest because they've a routine job in a factory. And you know they are really deprived in a sad way.
Mensa Member: Then what worries lots of people about lots of religions is the (indistinct) for example of pointing a finger at the (indistinct) choosing the finger with the (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: One of the difficulties, and I think this is true when I was saying simple people, using that in a broader sense, some people cannot get anything at all unless they have a little picture. You know, it helps them; not like the dear old lady who found...
Prabhupāda: That we give, the picture. Here is God.
1972 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: So was this material advancement less than this? And this is description of five thousand years ago. So here in Tokyo Kobe, in Japan there is so much industrials. We find the common man, 99% they are living on matchboxes. That's all. How many men are living in this nice apartment? The common man is living in matchbox. So this is not material advancement. A few people exploiting them in their factory. They are working and they are living in this nice building. But the common man is living in matchbox houses. We traveled these three hundred miles, or four hundred miles. We saw simply 99% matchboxes. What do you think, Bhānu? Is it not?
Bhānu: Yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Śyāmasundara: They all live in matchboxes too.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Sudāmā: In Russia?
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are advertising equal facility to everyone, to the worker. The worker is still working. They are going, still walking on the street to go to the factory. So in this way the whole civilization is going on simply by bluffing. And because men are made śūdra class, they are believing. They are accepting this bluff. This is the position. Besides that, if you... Even if you are able to give everyone nice buildings and nice motor car... Already a few motor cars you have got, there is scarcity of space. From practical point of view. 99% of the population, they do not possess. Or say 50%. So already 50% men possessing motor cars, it has created problem. Where to park the motor car? How to supply petrol.
Karandhara: Oh. Thank you. We are also very satisfied.
Prabhupāda: You started this business? I am asking your father. (Japanese)
Dai Nippon representative: This factory(?) is going to have ninety-seventh year anniversary. And Mr. Tajima has been working for this company since...
Prabhupāda: What is his age?
Dai Nippon representative: ...twenty-seven years old, for forty-three years.
Prabhupāda: He is in connection. So by God's grace he is a successful businessman. Nice. So I take your permission. (end)
Prabhupāda: Mass killing?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Mass killing. That is... They have factories where they can produce thousands of animals very quickly. Quickly they inject certain vitamins and so on in the animal so that they become fat very fast for mass killing.
Prabhupāda: How they can produce thousands of animals?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They're producing animals in the laboratories, not with... They're not producing, they are utilizing nature's way, but they don't let the animals see the green and the grass or the outside. They keep them in the barn and just keep feeding them.
Prabhupāda: I don't think it is possible. It is simply imagination.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: If he commits suicide, if somebody commits suicide, that is also preset?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not preset. That you can do, because you have got little independence. It is not natural to commit suicide. It is unnatural. So, because we have got independence, we can go from nature to unnature, and we shall be prepared for that. Just like a prisoner cannot go out of the prisonhouse naturally, but somehow or other he arranges to jump over the wall and goes away. Then he becomes again criminal, for farther (indistinct). Naturally, the prisoners cannot go out of the prisonhouse. Somehow or other, he manages to go out. That means he becomes again criminal. He will be again arrested, and his term of imprisonment will be increased, or he will be punished more. So naturally we cannot violate the destiny, but if we do it, then we suffer(?). But our destiny can be changed by Kṛṣṇa when we are Kṛṣṇa conscious. That we do not do, but Kṛṣṇa will do. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: (BG 18.66) "I shall give you protection." So that change takes place for my protection by Kṛṣṇa. There are two stages: nondevotee and devotee. The nondevotee is under the control of material nature, and devotee is under the direct control of Kṛṣṇa. Just like a big man. In the office there are many employees, they are controlled by different departmental superintendent. But the small man at home is controlling his children directly. The controller, he is controller both in the office and factory and home, but at home he is controller directly; outside home he is controller indirectly. But he is controller always.
Prabhupāda: Five to ten percent. Now fifty thousand at five to ten percent, how much? Unnecessarily you have to (indistinct). And to take back that octroi, I have got experience when I was in Allahabad doing business, you know, to take back the octroi, it is hanging. I could not develop my wholesale business due to the octroi. Then I arranged, because I was agent of Dr. Bose's factory. I was disbursing goods direct from Calcutta and sending bill from Allahabad. Octroi botheration I have got experience. You cannot do any large-scale business, the rascal government do not (indistinct) it. Due to this octroi botheration, nobody can do any large-scale business. Either you have to keep your go-down beyond the octroi limit.
1973 Conversations and Morning Walks
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it the same from pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya... (Iso Invocation)?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is preserved. Kārya kāraṇam, cause and effect. In the effect, the cause is there. Therefore, Veda says: sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman. Because the cosmic manifestation is the effect of the cause, energy of God. Therefore, in the effect there is God. mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. "In impersonal form, I am existing everywhere." God says, Kṛṣṇa says. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is existing on Me." Na cāhaṁ teṣu ava... "But I am not there." This is the personal and impersonal features of the Lord. The whole cosmic manifestation is the impersonal, it is resting on the energy of God, but you cannot find God here. The example is just like a big businessman, he has got a big factory. The factory's depending on the energy of that man, but if you want to see that man in the factory, you cannot see. Is that example nice? You cannot say that the factory is existing without him. It is in his brain the whole factory's running on. But if you want to find out where is he, that will be difficult.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The sun is a product of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, energy. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala grahāṇām. Sun is working under the order of... Just like if you don't see the managing director or the proprietor of a firm, the immediate boss who is controlling you, you have to obey. In the office or in the factory. Similarly, you cannot see directly God, but God's agent is working. Why don't you obey? God's agent is working? How it is working? Yasyājñayā bhramati saṁbhṛta-kāla-cakraḥ, exactly in time by the order of Kṛṣṇa, rising exactly in the time, without any deviation even by 1/10,000th part of a second, astrological calculation. Is it not? So how it is working? Under whose order it is working? Śāstra says, "By the order of Kṛṣṇa." Yasya ājñayā. "Under whose order he is working," govindam ādi-puruṣam, "I worship that Govinda." The śāstra is giving you information, that he is working under, he must be working under... Otherwise why it is so accurate, so punctual, unless there is some direction? Unless there is order of God, why this big ocean is so obedient, it is not coming here? Why don't you study like this? Where is the difficulty? There must be some direction that "You Pacific Ocean, you are so big, that's all right, but you cannot come here.
Paramahaṁsa: Prior to the growth of technology...
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are śūdras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of śūdras. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age, all are śūdras." Only we are trying to become brāhmaṇa. Otherwise all śūdras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body?
Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.
Devotee (1): Sometimes people ask, "If I surrender to God, give everything to God, then how will the state go on, how will the work, the factories, how would all that go on?
Prabhupāda: That, Kṛṣṇa is taking responsibility. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. He takes responsibility. Otherwise what is the use of surrender unto Kṛṣṇa? He takes responsibility.
Devotee (1): (laughs) Just can't go wrong, then.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa says ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi. Actually Kṛṣṇa is doing everything. We are thinking, "I'm doing it." We are doing nothing. Just like he has become a famous sculptor. Why you could not? Why, what is the reason? Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ (BG 15.15). "I am seated in everyone's heart." When He works, Kṛṣṇa says, "Do like this; it will be perfect like this." So Kṛṣṇa is guiding. And everyone is being guided by Kṛṣṇa, even in this condition of life. And when he fully surrenders, how much guidance he will come his way? Even without surrender he's guided. Without His guidance he can not do it.
Prabhupāda: Hm. You learn... We have got this institution. You can come and learn how others are doing, others are learning. We have got class in the morning at seven. If you've got time, you can, you are welcome. We don't charge anything. You can come and join. There is no business. You can live with us. We don't charge anything. Or you can come and go, attend class. There is no charge. Kṛṣṇa gives us everything. Just like this house. This is two hundred thousand pounds. George Harrison has purchased it, and he has given us. Similarly, everything comes from Kṛṣṇa. None of our members go to office or factory. But we eat also, nicely.
Guest (2): Yes, but if somebody didn't go to the factory, you wouldn't, would you?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Guest (2): Somebody has to go and do the work to make the food, keep the country running.
Prabhupāda: No. We don't hate to work. That is not our business. If we get work, we work for Kṛṣṇa. The income comes to Kṛṣṇa. But if we don't get work, we are not bothered, that "There is no work. Where shall I eat? Where shall I sleep? Where shall I go?" No, there is no such botheration. So all the members, I think, eighty, ninety percent, they do not go to work outside.
Buddhist Monk (1): He tried whiskey. He said, "Come to vodka because vodka's whiskey here," he says, "in this country." I told him, "I don't drink that either." "What do you eat and what do you drink?!" So... He asked me, "What's the matter with you?" "There's nothing wrong with me. (laughter) I am quite healthy, and everything... I am a follower of the Buddha, and our first precept is nonviolence to all mentally conscious living beings. And that's the reason why we follow this." "Ah, you miss the steak don't you?" I said, "I miss nothing. If one wants to have vegetables prepared, there are so many ways of preparing it, healthier, and if one wants taste, it will be even more tasteful." "All right, all right. Bring him as many vegetables. And what do you drink? Beer?" I said, "No. Fruit drinks, if you have." "You order." He gave me a listing. I wanted to pay. He wouldn't allow me to pay, and he paid it. Those people are kind there. And from the time I got, went across, I could talk to anyone without any restriction. I could discuss religion with farmers, factory workers, doctors, lawyers, whom I met in the course of my visit. And they were getting interested. Because people who have not seen materialism, they are very crazy for it. But once they have it, and it is beginning to be a surfeit, and divorces and suicides and other troubles increase, nervous cases, they think, "Oh, now there is a vacuum setting in." So they are interested. I was in every east European country. They never tried to tamper with my books or my talks. Of course, I didn't organize any public talks. I didn't, made no attempt. Then Czechoslovaks, Hungarians, very warm-hearted people. There are yoga classes there. And I met quite a few Hungarians outside who referred to yoga. Then Rumanians, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians. They are friendly people. Swamiji, have you been there in eastern European countries?
Prabhupāda: I have been in Moscow.
Buddhist Monk (1): Moscow? They're friendly people. I will go back again.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I know.
Prabhupāda: So let us...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Now, in India more people are living in the western way, though, living in cities, working in factories and offices. Does this make them have the western state of mind, the western point of view? Or can they resist it?
Prabhupāda: No, everything can be changed. If they take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The consciousness has to be changed.
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, that... Yes.
Prabhupāda: Otherwise, let him work in the factory or in the office, in the city. It doesn't matter. One has to change his consciousness. Then he's perfect, Kṛṣṇa conscious, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja (BG 18.66). That consciousness has to be changed. Then everything will be, automatically become...
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Yes, yes. (pause)
Prabhupāda: What book you are writing now?
Dr. Arnold Toynbee: Oh, I'm writing a book about Greece, about the effect of ancient Greece on present-day Greece.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Mother: But he had a false religious experience, due to the LSD.
Prabhupāda: No, I am talking generally, not of him, that everything must be, there must be division. Just like naturally we have got division. The whole object is to keep the body fit, but there is division: the head division, the arm division, the stomach division, and the leg division. So similarly, there must be four classes of men in the society: the intelligent class of men, the administrator class of men, the productive class of men, and the laborer class of men. Everything is required. But not that the intelligent class of man has to learn the business of the laborer class of men. That is not required. Just try to understand. The laborer class of men, they are required. But one who is intelligent class, he, he cannot be trained up as laborer, ordinary laborer in the factory. That is mistake. He must work according to his capacity. If he's intelligent, he must be preacher, he must be God conscious. He would educate people that "This eating, sleeping is not all. There is God. You should understand. You have got a relationship with Him. If you want to have better life next, then you must become God conscious, you must be sinless." These things are required in the society. (loud noise of jet going over). What is the use of talking?
Mother: Father, I understand that you have translated ten books.
Prabhupāda: Now again. Again the same question.
Prabhupāda: The means is that... Our process is that wherever we go, we perform saṅkīrtana, chant the holy name of God. That purifies, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12). It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we... We can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By, but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motor car factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord." What their, what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say.
Schumacher: I don't see the point.
Prabhupāda: Eh? There cannot be any objection.
Schumacher: No.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange, that "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Kṛṣṇa's service. But we don't demand anything, that "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So... From the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement, everything will be purified.
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same time, you want to purify. How it is possible?
Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of a treatment of animals is just so, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge.
Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing?
Popworth: Far more.
Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Popworth: And young cows, calves are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food, milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins, to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down.
Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals.
Dr. Hauser: But the dreaming of the night also has another function, according to my...
Prabhupāda: No. Dreaming at night, dreaming at day. The same thing. The pattern is different. Pattern is different. If you think that you are Englishman, you are Swedish, or if you are Hindu, you are Muslim, that is also dream. You are none of this. As much as you are none of those dreaming things at night. But due to our madness, sometimes we take: "This is fact," sometimes we take: "That is fact." But none of them are facts. Under different condition, we accept them as facts. But none of them are facts. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness means: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam (CC Madhya 19.170). When one becomes freed from all designations. Upādhi. Upādhi means designation. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam. Completely free from all designation. Just like in dream I think I have become now king. I am the proprietor of a factory. But none of them. It is only dream. Similarly, in day dream I am thinking I am the father of this family, I am the mother of this family, I am this, I am that. That is all dreaming. So one has to become free from this dreaming condition. That is called sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam (CC Madhya 19.170), liberated from all kinds of false designation. Designation... Designation means false...
Prabhupāda: Solution of difficulty is to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
- daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taranti te
- (BG 7.14)
Māyā... Just like if there are criminals, then the police force will be increased, punishment will be increased, so similarly, human beings, they are becoming godless, so by nature there must be punishment. They will not be supplied food. The food supply will be restricted. After all, the food is in the hands of nature. You cannot produce food. You can produce bolts and nuts in the factory, but you cannot eat bolts and nuts. You have to eat rice and grains. So that restriction if there is... (Hindi) The solution is to, back to home, back to Godhead. Otherwise there is no solution. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). The stringent laws of māyā is very strong. You cannot surpass them. Mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then it is possible to get out of this entanglement. Otherwise it is not possible. They have tried so many ways and means to solve the problems, but they could not do anything.
Śyāmasundara: People stopped purchasing...?
Prabhupāda: No. Just like Dr. Bose's laboratory. So Dr. Bose's laboratory, I was manager. Then I took his agency, very good terms. I was earning money like anything. But the next manager, he became envious. He began to poison Dr. Bose, to cut off our relationship. So it happened. Then, when I was Dr. Bose's agent, I become so much famous that Bengal Chemical, the biggest chemical factory, he, they wanted to give me the agency. If I would have taken that agency, I would have been the richest man in the chemical world. You see. But they made some condition. So I did not accept it. I wanted in my condition. That is the very little... But I was puffed-up, that "I am such a big... And this man is flattering. So I must get my condition fulfilled." So I did not accept it. The Smith Stanstreet gave me agency. Because in my work, in Dr. Bose's laboratory, I did it very creditably. So every other manufacturers, they became attracted to me, how to get me. The Smith Stanstreet Company, Bikepala(?) Company, Bose's, Bengal Chemical Company, they all wanted me. And I thought, "Oh, everyone wants me." So, so I refused. And later on there was a clique between Dr. Bose and me. So I lost everything. Then I started my own laboratory. Somehow or other, there was something, and...
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You may do, but already... Just like there is a soap factory. You start another soap factory. So what is your credit? It is already there.
Yaśomatīnandana: The big, big soap factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is your credit? Yes. You can imitation, make an imitation. And you want to take credit, all credit, for the original creator, simply by imitating. You are so foolish. Why shall I give you the credit? I shall give credit to the origin. That is our philosophy.
Karandhara: When they discover a natural law, they name it after themselves, like "Newton's law." (laughter)
Prabhupāda: It is already there, already there, and the rascal wants to take credit.
Yaśomatīnandana: They adjust a little bit and they say that they have conquered...
Prabhupāda: No adjustment. That is another foolishness. You cannot adjust. Even you cannot adjust a moment of nature's law. You cannot adjust.
Prabhupāda: Unless she become atheist how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one.
Yaśomatīnandana: Nehru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is quite believable.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think the Indian government has set up one oil factory now. I saw in the news, that in Mathurā now, the government of India has set up one oil refinery. There will be a factory there.
Prabhupāda: In Mathurā?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In Mathurā, yes. They have laid the foundation, Indira Gandhi. I think a few months ago I saw in the paper. So there will be one refinery there. So it will be industrial town now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They want to spoil the spiritual value of Mathurā, Vṛndāvana. They are not giving any more sanction for temples.
1974 Conversations and Morning Walks
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have reduced the output of big cars because previously they were making big cars.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Now how the business will... Another problem. The factory... How will so many men...? So they will create problem. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all this nonsense desire."
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The airlines have laid off so many thousands of people because there isn't enough gasoline to fly all the aeroplanes. So they are just laying off people. They are becoming unemployed now.
Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, problem will come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coming to the brain again, the, some people are working. Why some people are insane? For example, the mechanism of working the brain, some of the chemical pathways, they say, change, block. So some people become insane.
Prabhupāda: Insane? Then he cannot work. That's all. Even if I give you good machine... Just like I do not know how to work on it, so similarly, if one does not know how to work, then it is useless machine.
Devotee: Ten rupees Kg. For one rupee (indistinct) first-class wheat.
Prabhupāda: Just see. So if one is rascal, they will be misled by this. Otherwise, any sane man will not accept. They say that, "We have done so much." What you have done? You have done this. At least in India, the effect of machine and factories: that there is no rice, no food.
Devotee: With the machines they're mixing stones in the rice.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Devotee: With machine help, they're mixing stone in the rice.
Prabhupāda: That's it. That's it, that you cannot get. Oh, you have done so much. But India is not meant for machine. These rascals, they do not know. India is, India's culture is plain living, high thinking. You require some food. Produce food, and take it, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. But they'll not accept, "Oh, this is primitive. Nowadays we have got... We must have the motor car, motor tire."
Prabhupāda: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a kṣatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brāhmaṇa, or as a kṣatriya, or as a vaiśya, or as a śūdra.
Prabhupāda: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are śūdras. (break)
Hṛdayānanda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hṛdayānanda: In our society (break) ...accepted (break) ...as a philosopher.
Prabhupāda: Artist?
Hṛdayānanda: Yeah, the artist.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Artist is also business of the śūdra.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?
Devotees: Hammer and sickle.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good.
Prabhupāda: ...yukta-vairāgyam ucyate. Anything which is favorable to our this being Kṛṣṇa conscious, we accept.
Dr. Patel: No, we don't want because of factory.
Prabhupāda: They are, they are doing that business not for any individual profit.
Dr. Patel: No, but for the profit of the temple you can have it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: No individual profit.
Prabhupāda: That we can do.
Dr. Patel: We can do it here. I know so many people who, who can... (break)
Prabhupāda: Just like we are printing these books. And as soon as we take the bunch of books to any gentleman, he pays immediately, "Eleven hundred. Take it." Better business. You see. First of all I began business of this, simply by giving the Kṛṣṇa Book.
Prabhupāda: Virginia. Virginia. Different branches in different states. And the school is in Texas, Dallas. There is immense potency of increasing this movement in America. Immense potency.
Dr. Patel: In all departments of life you can increase. Even the workers who are...
Prabhupāda: No, I say, "Let there be saṅkīrtana in factory."
Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is what I say.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: We will start such a factory and do it, and it will be an ideal for...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't start. Already the factory is there. Go and teach them.
Dr. Patel: Where? In America?
Prabhupāda: Any... Here. There are so many factories.
Dr. Patel: I will let them come and see.
Prabhupāda: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in the factory.
Prabhupāda: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa in the factory.
Guest (1): Oh, you'll get great sales.
Dr. Patel: Of course, of course. Why not? Why not?
Prabhupāda: Whatever factories are already there, you begin chanting there.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) And then let the fellows follow your model. (break) ...small model of ten boys, who will go on chanting (break)
Prabhupāda: ...operating surgical: "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa..."
Dr. Patel: I am already model.
Prabhupāda: That's right. (break) ...coming from the back side. Kṛṣṇa is sometimes white also. Asan Balarāma (?)
Dr. Patel: No, He is white in Kṛta-yuga.
Prabhupāda: Śveta, śveta... Śuklas te tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇatāṁ gataḥ. Gargamuni, when he was deliberating on the horoscope of Kṛṣṇa, he said that "This child formerly had three other colors." Śuklas te tathā rakta. Śuklaḥ pītas tathā rakta idānīṁ kṛṣṇa. Śukla means white.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) We also say that "You take advantage of this, and also produce sufficient food grains so that people may not starve." Parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ. Annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Unless there is sufficient grain... People are giving more stress how to produce machine, but they are not giving any stress how to produce foodstuff. So many land are lying vacant. You go in India. So many lands. Not only in India. In other countries also. In England also we have seen. They are not taking care. Because it is very troublesome to put... "Better start a factory and get money easily."
Indian man (1): They are now thinking about it. "Green revolution."
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. (break) So much land is lying vacant. They could utilize for food grains. No. They do not do it. (break) ...they have been withdrawn from the villages to work in the city, in the factories, and the lands are lying vacant. (break) Mahimā siddhi, to become heavier. Animā, laghimā, mahimā, prāpti, siddhi. There are eight kinds of yoga-siddhis. So those who are yoga siddha... Kṛṣṇa is Yogeśvara. He became so heavy. (break) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. (break) ...aeroplane, it comes gradually, there is no crashing, but if it drops all of a sudden, then it is crashed. So this Tṛṇāvartāsura could not do that. He felt so heavy, fell down.
Prabhupāda: So one must be intelligent enough to see God. Now, the bird I do not see, but I am hearing the sound. So one must know there is a nice bird. Because the varṇāśrama-dharma is lacking, nobody is being educated as a brāhmaṇa. They have lost all knowledge. Suppose in the society there is nobody educated as engineer; you don't find any engineers. So who will understand this? Unless one becomes brahminical qualified, they cannot understand. Therefore a class of men must be there, trained up as brāhmaṇa. Then the understanding of God consciousness will be there. Otherwise finished. So now this rascal civilization, they are simply creating śūdras. What they will understand? Simply śūdras. Factories and this, for technology. And because they are getting money, they are thinking, "Now we have got everything." On the money standard. Actually they have no knowledge. Just like we find a expert electrician and we pay him sufficiently, say hundred dollars, but does it mean that he has knowledge? He is expert in that śūdra's work, that's all. That does not mean, because he has got money, he has got all knowledge. But people accept, "Oh, he has money. His life is successful. He has got all knowledge." That's all. And if you go, if you speak about God, "Oh, these men are beggars. They have made a profession." That's all.
Prabhupāda: Where he was?
Nitāi: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varṇāśrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...
Prabhupāda: He is a śūdra.
Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?
Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.
Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.
Pañcadraviḍa: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.
Prabhupāda: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.
Nitāi: One point that you made a few years ago in Vṛndāvana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don't have time to cultivate spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitaḥ, if he simply hears about Kṛṣṇa then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Kṛṣṇa, then it is difficult. Therefore śravaṇam. The first thing is that. The first qualification—he must be eager to hear about Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will come. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam, arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyam (SB 7.5.23).
Richard Webster: The work...
Prabhupāda: Yes, the service also, you must take sanction. Anything you want to do you must take sanction from the Lord. You cannot do anything whimsically and you think that "I am rendering service to the Lord."
Richard Webster: Oh, yes, but then the sanction, would that apply to scientific activities like engineering, one of the factories of producing (indistinct)
Atreya Ṛṣi: Would God sanction activities in the factory, technological, scientific world?
Prabhupāda: No, there is no sanction. These are all sinful activities.
Richard Webster: These are material activities.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You have created all these things. God has not sanctioned. God has not sanctioned for running on a factory. Therefore as soon as you run on a factory, you simply commit sinful activities. In the Bhagavad-gītā we don't find any such sanction that you run on a factory, a slaughterhouse or the brothel and this business and brewery no such sanction. But you have done at your whims. Just like in the last war, Mr. Churchill sanctioned or requested everyone to go to the church. What is that "V"? Victory? Yes. And now... Before starting the war, Mr. Churchill and company did not take any sanction. And when they were in reverse condition, then, that time, they are going to the church for victory.
Yogeśvara: During your conversation with this gentleman, you mentioned that there was nowhere any sanction by God for industry or business. So does that mean that these workers in factories and industries, to take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they could not go on with their work?
Prabhupāda: No. Our recommendation is that whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So even the workers in the factory, they can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. What is the difficulty? Even in factory, they take some leisure hours. So why not sit down for five minutes, ten minutes, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa? Where is the difficulty? Apart from the work they are doing, we are recommending, "Whatever is done is done. You chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then everything will be all right." Where is the wrong?
Yogeśvara: But eventually it's understood they must stop their industry.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of stopping. If that is their livelihood, how they can stop it? That is not possible. But they can add this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra chanting. Then things will be adjusted. It is not possible to stop different methods of livelihood. That is not possible. If one can stop, it is well and good, but even he does not stop, he can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.
Bhagavān: The easiest way to manage, then, is to have everything more or less in small villages.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that was Gandhi's philosophy, village organization. These people, they are attracting villagers to work in the factory, and they are exploiting them. Instead of producing food, they are attracted by so-called high salaries, to the factory, and they are producing bolts and nuts, motor parts. But food is produced somewhere else. But the food producers, they are working in the factory. Therefore scarcity of foodstuff. But this factory owner, he has got more money. He doesn't care. The poor public, they are suffering. Our philosophy is that you produce your food anywhere. You stay, and keep cows, take milk, produce vegetables, food grains, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That's all. This is our philosophy. Make your life successful. By becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious, you become free from all these troubles of material condition. This is our education. Don't be after these motorcars, television, and all nonsense things, sporting, wine, women. Don't be after these. Simply eat sufficiently, keep your health nicely, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, realize Kṛṣṇa, and go back to home. This is our philosophy.
Satsvarūpa: But sometimes, because this materialistic society is so far advanced, you say we cannot actually hope to change it.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is a fact. We cannot hope to change. But we request everyone to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: In their factory or wherever they are.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because it is very difficult to close the factory. That is not possible. So whatever you have done, it is all right. But you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then things will be adjusted. We are giving chance to everyone, who is degraded or who is not degraded, by the simple method of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We do not neglect anyone. We do not say, "You are neglected. We don't accept you." No. I accept you and I accept others. What is this? Cemetery? No. It is also part of this park? (break)
Bhagavān: ...people tolerate such obvious mismanagement.
Prabhupāda: As long as they will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they have to tolerate. They must suffer. That is nature's law. That is said in the Bhagavad-gītā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā... (BG 7.14). You cannot escape all these miserable conditions of... Mām eva ye prapadyante. If you become Kṛṣṇa conscious, then you escape. What is difficulty to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru: (BG 18.65) "Simply always think of Me." We have got nice Kṛṣṇa. And attend the temple, and we see. And what is the difficulty to think of Him always? Or chanting, hearing His name.
Bhagavān: Some people would be engaged in copying books.
Prabhupāda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy. That's all. Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kṛṣṇa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kṛṣṇa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kṛṣṇa, Therefore they go to the dog's pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That's all. They have been educated like dogs. Therefore they want it.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter. You remember Kṛṣṇa some way or other. Kṛṣṇa does not belong to this abominable material world, but it is benefit for you because you remembered Kṛṣṇa.
Yogeśvara: The manager of a large factory comes to us and says, "Well, here is my problem. My workers are striking for higher pay and no one is satisfied So what can I do?"
Prabhupāda: Yes, you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Yogeśvara: Well, he wants to know, "How can I apply that in my factory?"
Prabhupāda: You give us the in charge, make us in charge of the factory, we shall do it, and see how we can deal. You can do it. We shall introduce immediately kīrtana and give them prasādam. It will be solved. And give them lecture and philosophy. We can take. Let us have the charge. Then see how we can do. Or you follow our instruction. But that you will not. You want to exploit these poor fellows, and you are coming to us for solution. You first of all give up the spirit of exploiting. Then it will be solved. You have come to take our advice how to exploit them.
Yogeśvara: So he would ask, "Do I have to close my factory?"
Prabhupāda: No, we shall run on the factory. You give us in charge. We don't want anything from you. Let us manage. I can manage. Just organize saṅkīrtana. It will be solved. Now, these factory men works and goes home. So if you say that "You come early in the morning and you take prasādam here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa half an hour," they will immediately agree. Immediately agree. And give them good prasādam and have chanting for one hour. They will be all submissive. Is it not? Will they not agree? At least, they will see that "We haven't got to spend money for our food at home. We shall get nice food here. Let us chant. What is the harm?" And as soon as he chants, he becomes a gentleman. That's all.
Prabhupāda: They will not take any payment. Just like under me so many Europeans and Americans work daily. I don't pay them a farthing. When they become Kṛṣṇa conscious, you'll haven't got to pay anything. But you cannot take also anything. You cannot, you do not expect that "I don't have to pay anything, so it is very good profit." No, sir, you cannot take also anything. If I would have taken all the sales produced of the book selling, then you would not work. Because although it is my books, I do not take any profit or any sales proceeds, therefore you work. Similarly, these rascals, the proprietor of the factories, if they do not take anything, they will also agree not to take anything. Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. Then the solution is there.
Dhanañjaya: Just like I read in Time Magazine a few weeks ago that Russia has a big problem with alcohol, because so many people are drinking vodka. So because of detente there is easier relationships between America and Russia, and now America is shifting over a Pepsi Cola company. This is a soft drink company. They are going to build a big factory near Moscow. And so Brezhnev said, "Well, I hope that people will now take to soft drinking and this will ease our alcoholic problem in Russia."
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Dhanañjaya: They cannot solve their problem of alcohol consumption. And they are thinking that "If we import from America a soft drink factory to produce lemonade, orange, Coca Cola and so on, this will solve the problem."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is creating problem. What is this. Innocent?
Dhanañjaya: Innocenti. This is the name of a car. Actually, it's an "i" at the end, innocenti. (end)
Bhagavān: We can go down this way.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Hare Kṛṣṇa... (break) ...different countries, they are very careful. When foreigners come, if they bring some fruit, "No, no. You cannot take it within." And they keep the lakes contaminated. You cannot bring in one fruit, but you can keep the whole lake contaminated. This is their intelligence. Why they are contaminating? Eh?
Bhagavān: All the factories.
Prabhupāda: Their very business is contaminated, factories. (break) Even the sea has become contaminated.
Bhagavān: The sea?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhagavān: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: In Long Island and those places, if you go, the sea, the sea is so dirty.
Prabhupāda: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all śūdras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.
Prabhupāda: Factory.
Haṁsadūta: Employed at some factory. But very few people actually work on the land. And we can see so much land. No one is working. 'Cause by machine, they can work so quick on the land. (break)
Prabhupāda: This should be exemplary, that our community shall live in this way and save time for spiritual advancement of life. This example should be shown to the whole world, that "Here is a community. They have no problem, and they are simply interested in Kṛṣṇa consciousness." This will be the idea. Is it possible?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "They do not do any industry. They do not kill cows. They do not go to cinema. They do not have illicit sex. They don't drink. No problems. Simply they're eating very nicely and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa." Show this example. At least, in this fool's paradise. They are thinking it is paradise. And the paradise is lost every ten years or fifteen years by the bombing. German bombs the France, and France bombs the... This is their paradise. So let them understand that "You are all fools. You are fool's paradise. This is life, what we are doing." Teach them so that the fools will understand what is life. They are manufacturing atom bomb. Russia is hiding himself.
Prabhupāda: So he has gone?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is explained, that how this human form of life should be utilized, these necessities of life, not for to complete the necessities. Necessities of life, they are already supplied by God. Just like the birds and beasts, they are getting their necessities of life. They have no organization or no business, no factory, but they are getting their necessities of life. So Bhāgavata says, "This is not the problem, to acquire only the necessities of life. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is human life." (German) Read this verse.
Prabhupāda: They have already opened some factories. One factory is near (indistinct)
Devotee: Cannery.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Devotee: Cannery.
Prabhupāda: Cannery? Anyway, when they boil this onion, up to ten miles the good smell is (indistinct). (laughter) And the whole atmosphere is (indistinct) Similarly, they are trying to refine oil and the refuse will be thrown in the Yamunā and the River Yamunā will be spoiled, nobody will go there. (indistinct) They think that these so-called spiritual fanaticism of India is the cause of India's material deficiencies.
Guest: I know.
Prabhupāda: This must be killed.
Prabhupāda: Factory, big, big factory. So they will have to eat bolts and nuts. Where they will get food grains? They thought that "Let us eat the animal and manufacture bolts and nuts." Then when the animal will be finished, then what they will eat?
Satsvarūpa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food means bolts and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supply. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artificial butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket.
1975 Conversations and Morning Walks
Nitāi: Jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8).
Prabhupāda: Ah, jagad āhur anīśvaram (BG 16.8). There is no God, it has come automatically by interaction. But even it is so, how the interaction is taking place? That is intelligence. Interaction, just like acid and alkali. Just like oil and caustic soda. These are two chemicals and mixing them, interaction, the result is soap. Accepting this principle, but there must be a mixer, a person who is mixing. Otherwise, how the soap and oil is being mixed? The soap is there and the oil is there and the caustic soda is also there, that is material ingredient. But they are not coming together automatically. That is not possible. Where is the evidence? There are so many soap factories, and let them keep oil and caustic soda and there is no question of labor, let them become soap. Where is that evidence? But these rascals say like that. Aparaspara sambhūtam. Interaction of the two things. But where is the interaction of two things unless it is arranged by some third element? Where is the evidence? So these are foolish theories, that there is no God, things are taking place automatically and things are coming out, these are all foolish theories. There is no evidence.
Professor: I heard that you were a chemist before.
Prabhupāda: I was not chemist, but I was manager in a big chemical factory. Therefore, automatically, I learned something of chemist. And later on I started my own chemical factory.
Professor: You were belonging to Bengal?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: And you were having also a guru there?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, certainly. Without guru how can you...
Professor: Yes, naturally.
Prabhupāda: He is my guru. Show the photo.
Prabhupāda: But one law... When he was president, he was powerful than the government. When he resigned from the presidency, then he became less important. This is a crude example. The another example is that the sunshine is universally spread, and the sun globe is situated in one place. So which is important, the sun globe or the sunshine? And just like this light is situated in one place and the illumination is spread. So what is important, the illumination or the lamp? The fire is one place, and the fire light and heat is expanded, so the fire is localized, and the light and heat is expanded many miles. So which is important, the fire or the heat and light? Therefore, God is person, but He is not a person like you and me. But His personality is expanded just like the heat and light of the fire is expanded. Similarly, whatever we see, that is the expansion of God's energy. Just like there are many big businessman. The man is person, but he is conducting hundreds of factories, big, big area. The factories are important or the man is important? If an ordinary person in this material world becomes so important and personal, you can just imagine how the person of God is important in spite of unlimited expansion of this material world. So what is his idea? The person is ultimately important. The impersonal feature is there, just like the impersonal feature, sunshine, but the sun globe, and within the sun globe there is sun-god. The sunshine is the expansion of the energy of the sun globe and within the sun globe there is sun-god. So which is important, the sun globe, the sun-god or the sunshine? Which is important? The sunshine is important?
Ambassador: And that in the name of progress. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have already opened some factory. One factory is there in Mathurā, in... What is? Who preserve the fruits in cans, what they are called?
Parivrājakācārya: Cannery.
Prabhupāda: Cannery? Anyway, so when they boil this onion, up to ten miles the good smell spread. (laughter) You see? And the whole atmosphere of Vṛndāvana is spoiled. Similarly, they are trying to refine oil, and the refuse will be thrown in the Yamunā. So the river Yamunā will be spoiled. Nobody will go to take bath. This is Indian government's policy. They think that this so-called spiritual fanaticism of India is the cause of India's material degradation. So this must be killed. Like the Russians.
Prabhupāda: Due to the cars?
Devotee: Yes.
Devotee: Everyone was a farmer, now everyone is a factory worker.
Devotee: Yes. It was very nice, very clear and very nice.
Prabhupāda: Again, let them become farmers. (break)
Devotee: The mornings were very cool, very cool and during the day it was hot. The mornings were always very clear and cool. (devotees chanting japa in background)
(break)
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: In India, Tirupati, I that Deity is richer than many kings in the world. Daily, 100,000 rupees, not (indistinct), daily. (break) Which king who has got so much money? If you organize, you can take the whole income for cause of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, if you are really organized. That is possible.
Prabhupāda: (Speaks in Bengali) Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered,
- bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra
- janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra
- (CC Adi 9.41)
This is para-upakāra. So what is this nonsense para-upakāra, creating an atom bomb? Is that para-upakāra? Of course, it has got its utilization, but it is not for para-upakāra. (Bengali) Paricaryātmakaṁ karma śūdra-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). (Bengali) Śūdra is the cātur division, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Cātur-varnyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Now in India mostly they are śūdras, 99.9. They are not interested that satya śamo damas titikṣa arjavaḥ, jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). (Bengali) They are captivated by the śūdras. This, during the British period the śūdra activities, developing the country by railway, by factory, by bridge—these people are innocent. They thought that "Oh, here is the actual civilization. The Britishers have brought." They lost their own civilization.
Nalinī-kānta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...?
Prabhupāda: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything.
Nalinī-kānta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Nalinī-kānta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, śūdras. When a śūdra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Pañcadraviḍa: So the living entity can enjoy his desires in that field according to his past activities.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he's enjoying. He's working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he's enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody's coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that "You work here," I don't think you'll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do...? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not?
Pañcadraviḍa: The work is too hard.
Prabhupāda: Ah, that's it. That's it.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Buffalo.
Prabhupāda: Yes, buffalos. Cow is very important animal. Therefore it is recommended to protect it. From social benefit point of view, it is essential that cow should be protected so that you can get lots of milk preparations and keep your health very nice. So many nice preparations can be made from milk. In New Vrindaban, the other farmers, they come. They are surprised to see: "Oh, so many nice preparations!" They are appreciating. They do not know. It is the industrialist who has introduced this meat-eating. Because they are attracting men from village to work in the factory, so they have made it a policy that "We shall eat cow's flesh. That's all. We don't require..." In Russia, practically, they eat only cow's flesh. They do not know anything else to eat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes, that is also nice. (break) We have no factory; we have no business.
Guest: People are wondering now. They are asking me.
Prabhupāda: So why they do not imitate this?
Guest: No, they will imitate. Because that's why we are going to Ahmedabad to that we can give the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, if that is, they want to see practically, so practically we have got 102 branches and maintaining so many men, but we have no business.
Guest: No, ISKCON has done better than any government. In ten years what ISKCON has done, no other government has done.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Even in America they are surprised. In our Los Angeles temple our devotees are inquired by the store men that "How you are maintaining? You do not work. You have got so many cars. You are eating nicely. You live in very nice building. How you are provided?" They are surprised.
Justin Murphy: But we must all perform yajña?
Prabhupāda: Yes, you have to perform yajña. And that yajña, at the present moment, is very easy, to... Saṅkīrtanaiḥ yajñaiḥ. It is recommended that we have to recognize the authority of the Lord, and in this age, simply by performing saṅkīrtana-yajña, He will be satisfied. Saṅkīrtana-yajña means to glorify the Lord in so many ways. We glorify the Lord His form, His activities, His name, His quality. So it is not difficult job. We can sit together, family-wise, community-wise, or in office, in factory. We can sit down together and glorify the Lord. Is it very difficult job?
Justin Murphy: You make it sound very, very simple of course.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then why don't you accept it?
Justin Murphy: Well, I for one might. But...
Prabhupāda: No, no, I am not talking about you.
Prabhupāda: Geographer. And another man is working in the factory or somewhere else. Everyone is working. So by working the aim should be how to perform yajña. That is... That should the... Suppose you are geographer, and I am a religious preacher, and he is a cultivator, he is a factory man, he is a motorcar driver. So that is all right. But if we sit down together and perform yajña simply by glorifying the Lord, where is the loss in your part or my part or his part? Where is the loss? Suppose as a geographer, you sit down; as a religious preacher, I sit down; as a motorcar driver, he sits down; as a factory worker, he sits down and perform yajña. Yajña means we chant the holy name of the Lord. Where is the difficulty?
Justin Murphy: I wish it were as simple as that for the majority of people.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Even the child can take part. Even the child, woman, educated, noneducated, rich man, poor man, worker—everyone can sit down and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. So why don't you accept this formula?
Prabhupāda: The people should be educated that "If you do not perform this yajña, you will suffer."
Justin Murphy: But, of course, there are conflicting educations, aren't there?
Prabhupāda: Whatever they may be. What is the wrong there, that, if we sit down together and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra without any loss of our factory or work? But if there is some gain, why not try it?
Justin Murphy: A delightful idea, a beautiful idea, and a very simple-sounding idea. How about, however, the Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, who are bound in this...
Prabhupāda: No, what is the... No, Roman Catholics... We don't say that Roman Catholics cannot perform yajña. We say that you chant the holy name of God. So Roman Catholics they have God or not, no God?
Justin Murphy: Well, they think they do a lot of that on a Sunday morning.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever it may be, any religious system... Religious system means connection with God. Is it not?
Justin Murphy: Certainly not, no. But why is there...? If people are, in their own way, then, chanting to their God, why...
Prabhupāda: No, no... Ultimately, you require sufficient supply of water to grow your food, vegetables. Or even if you are animal-eater, to maintain your animals you require sufficient water. And that is recommended, that yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ (BG 3.14). And the yajña is very simple: chanting the holy name of the Lord. So why not introduce, that every home, every factory, every community, every place, they should sit down at least for half an hour and chant the holy name of the Lord?
Justin Murphy: Could I ask you very simply? You suggest this. If we all do this, will that, for example, remove the problems that we do, that our society, at any rate, at any guess, generates for ourself? We have more and more pollution. Depending on the way the wind blows, for example, we get at times choking pollution from the industrial complexes down to the south of this city. Are these problems going to be...
Prabhupāda: No, no, the next question will be, "If you get sufficient grain for eating, why should you take to industry?"
Justin Murphy: To make money, very simply.
Prabhupāda: Then what for, money? Money means you require the necessities of life.
Prabhupāda: (break) How they will serve? The proposal...(break) that how... (break) ...they have disco... (break) They have discovered so many machine, so many factories, so many... So how they will relieve the mankind? This proposal Vivekananda used, to serve the mankind. How they will serve? In spite of all arrangement there are so many suffering humanity, so many unemployment, so much disease, so much death. So what is the meaning of this serving? Huh? You cannot stop it. That is the nature's way. How you can stop by so-called bluffing that "We are serving the humanity"? You are opening hospital. Does it mean that the suffering is reduced? Because the suffering has increased therefore your number of hospitals have increased. Where is the mitigation? Nature's way, we are feeling pain, this cold wind. Who can stop it? And where is the question of decreasing human's suffering or stopping?
Amogha: By our technological inventions we can make a heater that makes the coldness...
Prabhupāda: But the heater is not curing the suffering.
Devotee (1): The temple is manufactured in the sand?
Prabhupāda: No, as usual. Just like they dig well. They dig well. They begin immediately, and then you dig the earth, and the structure goes down. Then again, then again, like that. They were experts, they were experts, to construct... Labor is cheap. That time, practically there was no labor cost. At the present moment, on account of factories, the labor cost has increased. Otherwise the laborers, they were, they have no sufficient employment. So two annas, four annas. I was paying labor, four annas, say, in 1930s. Four annas. In Allahabad I was paying four annas. He would work whole day. In Bombay eight annas.
Devotee (1): They also have the big structures in Egypt, the pyramids.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee (1): On top of a mountain.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was driven away from Vṛndāvana. (pause) They are all going to the downtown?
Devotee (1): Yes. To the factory areas also, in Fremantle.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Where is the factory area?
Devotee (1): About ten miles down the coast. They have very big factories, very bad pollution. Big factories down south, in one place called Fremantle. It's a little way down.
Prabhupāda: Three miles?
Devotee (1): Ten.
Prabhupāda: Ten miles. How long it will take to go and come?
Amogha: To the factory?
Prabhupāda: No, that area.
Prabhupāda: One hour? For ten miles?
Devotee (1): It's a lot of traffic.
Prabhupāda: Oh. What factories they have got?
Devotee (1): Big, big steel factories.
Prabhupāda: Steel factory.
Devotee (1): Yes. Also aluminium factories.
Prabhupāda: Aluminium. And still, there is problem. That man said?
Amogha: Yes. He said the bauxite mineral, the multinational or international companies are exploiting, interested in exploiting the bauxite minerals to make much aluminium.
Prabhupāda: Now aluminium is in great demand for manufacturing airplane. They are all manufactured from aluminium. (someone shouts in distance) What does he say?
Amogha: I think he was barking.
Prabhupāda: Millions and millions of tons water taken and distributed. Why their scientists so proud of their achievement? What they can do?
Madhudviṣa: Hm. It is amazing. There is no factory in the sky to purify the water. Simply by the evaporation of the sun, the water is held up in the sky, and immediately it comes down pure.
Prabhupāda: And it is stored on the mountain head and it comes down. Eternal supply. Whole year's supply through the rivers, huge water. You have seen that, what is name, Niagara Falls?
Madhudviṣa: Yes. You have seen? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Huge water. There are many falls like that. Clean, clear, nice, sweet water is coming. There is sweet-water sea also.
Madhudviṣa: In the sea.
Prabhupāda: No, not here. In the sky. There is sweet water, very sweet, nice water, drinking water, sea. Sea of ghee, sea of yogurt, sea of milk. Everything is there.
Prabhupāda: ...their own food, it takes working eight hours for three months. So three months, if they work hard-hard means eight hours, not more than—then the whole year's provision is there.
Siddha-svarūpa: Yes. Simply they have to harvest, time, maybe two hours a day. Farming or being in the countryside also seems to be, in itself working in the countryside rather than in a factory, seems to be more conducive for thinking, even while they're working.
Prabhupāda: No, it is a fact. This factory working is most demonic. It is not required at all. For the interest of a few persons this device has been invented. Therefore the Communist movement is there. And the China has found the Communistic movement in Russia is defective because although it is Communistic, the whole idea of exploitation by the powerful is there.
Prabhupāda: War hero?
Jayatīrtha: Yes. In the last war. (Prabhupāda laughs) So he is also helping us. He has a big factory next to the land and he's letting us use it for the incense business. So he's doing some good service.
Prabhupāda: What is that factory?
Jayatīrtha: He employs these alcoholics and derelicts in different kinds of work, making things. And he was keeping these people living in this palace, but now he's built another place next door where he keeps them and he has them employed. It's sort of an Alcoholics Anonymous group.
Prabhupāda: Let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they will be rectified.
Dr. Wolfe: Could it be called the true yoga of our time?
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. It is bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga begins with chanting. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ (SB 7.5.23). And the more you chant and hear, you become purified. So I think you leaders of your country, you should take this movement very seriously and take it for acceptance. It is not difficult. Chanting. You can chant in school; you can chant in college; you can chant in the factory; you can chant on the street. There is no special qualification required. But if we introduce this chanting, you will be benefited great. There is no loss, but there is great gain.
Dr. Wolfe: Śrīla Prabhupāda, you are aware that they advance the argument of mesmerization against chanting. The psychologists do that.
Prabhupāda: That's good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted that you can mesmerize the drug-addicted hippies and engage them in understanding Kṛṣṇa, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes.
Prabhupāda: So why shall I... A rich man, does he work? We are rich men. We don't work. You rascal, you have no money. You work. We are rich men. Why shall I work? Any rich man you see, he is not working. He is escaping? What is that? Any rich man who has got money, he is not working. He is engaging all fools and rascals in the factory. So is that, is he escaping?
Devotee (1): A lot of times they say that we're just...
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all take one answer. That we are rich men, we are Kṛṣṇa's son. So why shall I work like you, an ass? A ass will work unnecessarily. We are not asses.
Yadubara: Actually, we're more active than ever before.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are rich man's son, Kṛṣṇa's son. Why shall I work? That is the nature. A rich man's son never works. He enjoys. We are dancing and taking nice prasādam. Why shall I work? What do you think? Poor man will work. Rich man, why they will work? He will enjoy. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram (BG 5.29). He is the proprietor of all planets, and we are servants of Kṛṣṇa, a rich man's servant. Why shall I work so hard? The ass will work hard, not a human being.
Prabhupāda: Well, at least he will not take, and the economy will go on. There will be a class of men like him. They will never take. So there is no problem. Your economy will go on. (laughter) (break) ...the prisoners become free, how the prison house will go on? Is that very nice question? What is the use of prison house? For the criminals? (break) ...thinking in that way, that "We are giving up meat, and the slaughterhouse proprietors, they are sorry. Then how our business will go on?" As if that is a very nice business. The sooner you close that business, it is good for you. But he is thinking "How my business will go on? If all these people give up meat-eating, then how this slaughterhouse will go on?" That is the logic. And our logic is the sooner you close this slaughterhouse, the better for you. This is our logic. (to devotee:) Which way? (break) ...liquor shop, the breweries, they are worried, "How business will go on. They are giving up." Cigarette factory. They will be sorry.
Prabhupāda: ...jīva mā mara. The slaughterhouse maintainer is advised that "You don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. "Your position... Now you are... If you live, just see how horrible business you are doing. And if you die, you will be slaughtered. So better you don't die, don't live." Mā jīva mā mara. (break) ...nice park, nobody is coming. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we are taking advantage. (laughter) They have worked so hard, they are sleeping. We are taking advantage. So they are escaping or we are escaping? Just see how foolish they are. They have worked so hard, and they are not taking advantage. We are taking. So our policy is that "You work hard, and we go and take from you." This is not escaping. This is intelligence, that "You work hard, rascal. You are foolish asses. And we take advantage." Our George Harrison, he is working hard, in England (?). And he worked hard, and he gives a house, Bhaktivedanta Manor. We are not going to construct. Is that escaping or it is intelligence, that "You work hard and give it to me. We enjoy"? This is intelligence; that is not escaping. That is going on. The capitalists, they are engaging these rascals, asses, in the factory, and he enjoys life.
Brahmānanda: Well, I was just... I cannot say exactly why. I was searching, however. I was looking for something better than what I was doing.
Prabhupāda: His father predicted that "This boy will become a pious man. He is not going to take up my business." (laughter) His father is a very big, rich man running on factories. But he was disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it not? You tell.
Brahmānanda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is Prabhupāda's grace that he came here and he actually delivered a process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa is a bona fide transcendental process. And Prabhupāda has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is very important, and we have members from practically every country, every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we see a great scope for this movement.
Prabhupāda: Then what is this nonsense problem? So far eating, sleeping, even the birds and beasts, they have no problem. They are eating, sleeping. What is this problem in eating, sleeping and mating? There is no problem. Why you are creating problem? You are creating problem, rascal. There is no problem. Where is the... Out of 8,400,000 species, only men are 400,000. Eight million they are all lower animals. Where is their problem? They have no population problem, they have no food problem, no quarter problem. They do not go to office, they do not start factories. So where is their problem? Eight millions, they have no problem. And out of the 400,000, the so-called rascal civilized men, they have problems. Others they have no problem. They don't require a scientist rascal like you. (laughter) This is the... Tell them like this. If you take vox populi, so out of eight million four hundred, eight millions do not require a rascal like you. And out of the so-called civilized men, a few only, they require your service. So what is the value of your service? Others, they have no problem. Do you think they have problem, the birds and beasts? They are very freely walking from one tree to another and eating. Whatever fruits are there, they are eating. And the for mating, the female bird is always with him. Nature has given, when the birth is taken place, one male, one female, cats, dogs and birds. So there is no problem. Is there any problem?
Brahmānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: How they polluted, such a big lake?
Bahulāśva: By factories. Many factories are there.
Dharmādhyakṣa: They empty all their waste directly into the lake. All the fish are dying.
Prabhupāda: Here some fishy smell. (break)
Bahulāśva: ...gentleman first has to understand that he's not the body. That psychologist gentleman has to understand he's not the body first.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So, what did he say?
Bahulāśva: Yeah, he believes that there is soul and that you're not the body, and he's hoping that he'll be able to become more serious about studying Bhagavad-gītā to understand that more clearly.
Prabhupāda: So let him prove there is soul. That will be great service to the western world, if a scientist and philosopher, psychologist proves that "Here is soul."
Prabhupāda: Hm. Only fuel. They are called fuel. They are meant for using as fuel. (break)
Viśvakarma: ...Ontario, Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is known as the fruit belt, in this area. But now they are ripping up all the orchards and putting in factories.
Prabhupāda: Whatever they do, they do it for factories so that people may be exploited very easily. (break)
Indian Man (2): ...like your company very much in Toronto and we feel like talk you so much, but we don't have so much time to talk with you. You have so much mercy, so we have not... know so much about Kṛṣṇa from you.
Prabhupāda: So in my absence you read the books. What I talk, I have written in the books. That's all.
Indian Man (2): Personally, we think more greater.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But still, you can associate with me by reading my books.
Prabhupāda: This is called hog life, how to maintain this body. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Kāmān means necessities of life. Very, with great difficulty... (break) ...kāmān. Life can be easily maintained by agriculture and cow protection. No. They will start big, big mills, factories, motor tires, cars, instruments. Kaṣṭan kāmān. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is called ugra-karma, fierce... (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Fierceful activities.
Vraja-vasi: Haribol!
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kaṣṭan kāmān. Unnecessarily creating problems. (break) ...one after another, one after another. Formerly paper was used only for Vedic knowledge. Now the paper used for so many useless newspaper, volumes and volumes and jasusi(?), unnecessarily creating agitation of the mind. And if you explain these things they will say, "This is all primitive ideas." Modern ideas means one must work very hard day and night to get a little piece of capati. Hm? What is the answer.
Prabhupāda: Then why you say you are advanced civilization? That is forbidden. Kaṣṭan kāmān na arhati. It is not desirable; it is not good. You are given this body different from this pig because you will live peacefully and happily. Why should you accept kaṣṭan kāman, so hardship? Actually they do not want to work hard. Otherwise why the proprietor, the capitalist, they leave the factory and go to a solitary place? Why does he go?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They don't find any happiness even in the hard work.
Prabhupāda: The other worker, he is seeing that "This rascal has engaged us in hard work and he is enjoying. So drive him out. Kill him." This is communism. Everyone wants that, comfort, peacefully living. Therefore this civilization, to work hard, is condemned. If hard work is desirable why the capitalists avoiding? Hm? What is answer?
Prabhupāda: He'll get food. Food they can grow very easily, but they... Anartha. This is called anartha. Anartha means unnecessarily. Ādau śraddh tata sādhu-saṅgo 'tha bhajana-kriy tato 'nartha-nivṛtti syāt. So anartha-nivṛtti civilization, not anartha increasing. Civilization means anartha-nivṛtti syāt because we are complicated by the anarthas, unwanted things. (break) ...this way there is bulls, horses for transport. But what is the use of these big, big motorbuses and acquire petrol, machine, factory, so many things? But nature's way there is already means of transport. The horses are there. The bulls are there. But they will eat them, and they will create these motor big, big buses and then petrol, then fight. (baby birds making sounds.)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They also want to join the saṅkīrtana movement.
Prabhupāda: They are dependent on mother, by nature dependent. Similarly, you should be dependent on the original source of emanation. This is nature. Why they are with the mother?
Cyavana: Without the mother they cannot survive.
Prabhupāda: No, without, they can survive; still, they are dependent.
Prabhupāda: Formerly they were satisfied by tilling the ground, getting food grains. Now they have started factories. At the cost of thousands of men's labor, some director is getting money and enjoying life. That is progress. And these rascals, laborers, they are thinking that "These men are getting the profit, cream of this business. We are working. Why not take ourself?" That is Communism.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: There is one small coal mining town we did saṅkīrtana at, an Indian community. And they were thinking that "The coal mine is doing everything for us. They're giving us schools, they're giving us medicine, they're giving us... Without the coal mine where would we be?"
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: These are owned by Indians?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: These are some Muslim shops and Indian shops mostly. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...are employed in the factory?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Very menial labor, driving trucks and delivery. Gokulendra, when he went to...
Prabhupāda: They are given equal facility for education?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No. When Gokulendra went to England he saw a European man with a pick in his hand, and he couldn't believe it, because in South Africa you never see a European person with a pick opening up the street. Only the Africans do things like that. And they'll have one European man standing there, directing. He'll make so much money. (break)
Prabhupāda: Indians are taken within the group of black? No.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So complex.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is going on. "These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them." That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser's policy, to kill British empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competition, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The only solution is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That's it, only solution.
Prabhupāda: You have no position. You cannot take the Western culture properly, and you have lost your own culture. This is India's bad luck. They never taught Indians how to become actually Westernized. No. They were not giving them sufficient education. They were very much against higher education in the beginning. They wanted some clerks to conduct their activities, mercantile and government, some third-class, fourth-class men. Educated means ABCD, that's all. "They may know ABCD and take fifty, sixty rupees salary, and go home outside the town and come in daily passenger train, and work hard here and simply get your money so that you can maintain yourself." Nothing more. No education, no money, no industry. They were not taught properly. Here I see the factories, and the arrangement is so nice. But Indian factories, go—it is hell. Hell, simply hell. The Britishers exploited the Indians, and the capitalist class of India, they have learned how to exploit only.
Prabhupāda: ...going to the West, and I was collecting some money, this gentleman gave me five hundred rupees.
Devotee (2): Tarachand Gupta. Really? He makes trains, train cars.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He has got factory?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupāda: A good business.
Devotee (2): Yes.
Brahmānanda: Where is the factory?
Devotee (2): It's outside of Bombay.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...at his home, Deity.
Prabhupāda: You know that? What is that article?
Aksayānanda: The one you heard last night?
Prabhupāda: No. When I was in South America I saw that...
Harikesa: South Africa.
Prabhupāda: South Africa. There are many factories for chicken killing. So I suggested that the egg, you can analyze, find out the chemicals and...
Aksayānanda: Create one.
Prabhupāda: Create one egg. That was my proposal. So he is going to create. (laughter) He'll explain how to create egg from...
Aksayānanda: From chemicals.
Jnana: And make chicken.
Harikesa: Calcium phosphate and a little sulphur for the yellow, make some color, and cover it in plastic and put it in an incubator and let a chicken grow.
Prabhupāda: And you eat.
Akṣayānanda: Because we have not experienced it doesn't mean that there's no life.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained. That, you'll see in big, big factories, there is fire. Flame is coming. By seeing the flame, if you think there is no life, is that not nonsense?
Harikeśa: Oh, you gave the example last night of...
Prabhupāda: So many example. You go to the Tata iron factory, from distance you'll see so many fire flames. Does it mean there is no life? That is nonsense.
Akṣayānanda: Another point is somebody had to light the fire.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Akṣayānanda: Somebody must have lit that fire. So similarly the light of the sun, who has started that light?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's alright. Who made that positive charge and negative charge?
Akṣayānanda: So let them manufacture lightning bolts in the Tata factory.
Prabhupāda: How the electricity is produced unless there is some arrangement? Just put counter-argument and argument, try to understand. You have to preach. So your argument stopped?
Harikeśa: I don't know anything about this. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: You cannot... Your malador masjid(?). Arguments are there, so whether there is life in the sun globe?
Indian man: (Hindi—discussion with Śrīla Prabhupāda and other Indian men about śāstra, scientists, agni, and the example of the iron factory)
Prabhupāda: Jaya.
Devotees: Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Harikeśa: But the fire and the life is different in the Tata factory.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Harikeśa: The fire is different from the life. The fire is produced.
Prabhupāda: The fire is the same. There is fire. Fire is the same. In the life the fire is not different.
Prabhupāda: Exactly the same way. In the factory there is big fire and there are workers also.
Harikeśa: But the life is the workers not the fire.
Prabhupāda: No. I mean to say, in the midst of fire, the living entity can live. That is my argument.
Akṣayānanda: But they can't jump in the fire and live. They will die.
Prabhupāda: No. That is material body. Spiritual... In the Bhagavad-gītā there is, (it says that) it does not burn into fire, in the fire. Adāhyaḥ, adāhyaḥ. So living entity is never burnt. Even if he's in the fire. So he may have a body of fire but he does not burn.
Akṣayānanda: But why should we accept that, because to make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Akṣayānanda: To make our factory we did not need Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Akṣayānanda: To make the factory... We have made such a nice factory for fire, so we did not need to consult Bhagavad-gītā for that.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what he is saying.
Harikeśa: He's saying he built a factory but he didn't use Bhagavad-gītā to do it.
Prabhupāda: So who says that without Bhagavad-gītā you cannot ignite fire?
Akṣayānanda: So why should we accept that the living entity will not die.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is authority. If you do not accept, then this is the example, argument. That the factory surrounded by fire, it does not mean there is no life. From distance, you are seeing the sun from a very, very, 95 or 93 million miles away. Fiery it is undoubtedly, but it is exactly like that: that you see from a distant place, the iron factory, it is simply fiery. Your experience is from distance. You have not gone there. So the distance experience is like this, that you see there is fire, big fire, but still there are life. You have to accept this argument.
Harikeśa: Actually it is perfectly reasonable.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Their food is there, he is simply searching out, that's all.
Harikeśa: So if we economically develop, we don't even have to search out...
Prabhupāda: No, no, you are opening factories. They are not opening factories. Nature's food is already there. And "Be satisfied, take this." That's all. That much endeavour is required. That is material world.
Harikeśa: So in other words he has to look for food, but man has to make a factory in order to look for food...
Prabhupāda: No, he hasn't got to make factory. He has got also food but he... If he does, he is claiming to be more civilized. He has complicated his activities by opening factories. That's all. He has got also food. Let everyone remain in nature's... You take fruit from the trees and drink milk, you are also sufficient. You don't require to cook even. There are fruits. Formerly all the sages they were taking fruits from the trees, and milk from the cows. That's all. They did not even produce food. Like agriculture. No. Whatever nature is supplying, that's all. But you are killing the cows, eating the meat, and producing no food and and making things, complicated. This is your civilization.
1976 Conversations and Morning Walks
Prabhupāda: (break) ...fire, explain.
Harikeśa: Oh, because people can't see life in fire, they think there's no life in it, so therefore there's no life in the sun. But it's just like the Tata factory. When you see it from a distance there's many planes and fires, but inside there's many people who are working. Therefore just because you can't see life in fire doesn't mean it's not there. We see life in the earth, we see life in the water, we see life in the air, so why not in the fire? Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Now question, answer.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, one question is that the people in the Tata factory are not actually in the fire.
Prabhupāda: So they are also not in the fire. I say even if it is in the fire, there is no harm because the living soul is not burned to fire. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Adāhyo 'yam. Dāhya. Dāhya means burned. It is not burned. These are wrong conception. Because they have no conception of the soul, they think bhaṣmi bhūtasya dehasya: "When the body is burned, then the soul is also burned." If the soul is burned, then where is the question of tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13)? How? In the Hindu system they burn the body. So if the soul is also burned, then where is punar janma? You?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We can accept that the soul is not burned, but what about the body?
Prabhupāda: Body is burned.
Prabhupāda: But who is working as farmer? Who is working as farmer? The government is eager to give them land, but who is working? Nobody is working. They are going to the factory. Even whatever land is still available, they are not being worked out.
Indian man: Well, in the villages there are many poor peoples who are landless, so they are cultivating the land.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Some of them are cultivating. Others are going to the city to be...
Indian man: So now everybody will go. When the rich people will take their land they have to go. They will say, "How we can live with the small land," so they will move.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, why they should not try to be rich? If the rich man exploits them, that "You work in our land and take some salary," why they will work for that? They will go to the factory, will get more salary. This way Indira Gandhi cannot solve the poverty problem. They must take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like these soldiers, they for twenty years, simply eating and sleeping, and they are not engaged in cultivating-useless waste of time—and government has to maintain in big cantonment, big, big house, big, nice food, nice.... This is going on. Why the soldiers are maintained? It is waste of energy.
Prabhupāda: I knew it, that they were preparing some sand, because Dr. Bose had a bottle factory. So he was melting the sand. Therefore I asked him. You cannot manufacture anything. You simply collect the ingredients given by God and you can transfer into some other form. You cannot manufacture. This building is also the same way. You have got the cement, the wood, the iron. Wherefrom you have got that? It is Kṛṣṇa's property. So those who are manufacturing or constructing big, big houses for their living, they are simply eating their sinful activities. Ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt (BG 3.13). We are also... They can say that "You are also con..." But we are not doing it for ourself. It is for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore karma and bhakti apparently looks the same activity, but one is for Kṛṣṇa, another is for one's personal use. Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpāḥ. What is that verse? You know? Bhuñjate te tv aghaṁ pāpā ye pacanty ātma-kāraṇāt. Hm? What is that book? Oh. Today there is no fog, or there is, that side, fog. (break) ...all convinced that our only business is to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Huh? That is required. We have no other business. "We" means we human beings. We have no other business.
Acyutānanda: But they have taken material from the already created, and here's without factory it's made.
Prabhupāda: If you ask for an artist to...
Acyutānanda: But there's no seed in the plastic flower, no seeds to create more.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Acyutānanda: The scient... There was a scientific law called Heisenberg's Law of Uncertainty that—'cause this Heisenberg just died, so they wrote his philosophy—that you cannot observe anything and give a conclusive answer to anything that was uncertain. No one can make a decisive statement...
Prabhupāda: So why you are giving this conclusive answer? Why he is giving?
Acyutānanda: No.
Prabhupāda: This is conclu...
Acyutānanda: All he's saying is like what Socrates..., "I only know that I don't know."
Hari-śauri: In other words, he's in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Ah, everything, yes. Roti is there, kaparā is there, and makān is there. And wherefrom it is coming? Sarva-kāma-dughā mahī. From earth. Why you are after factories? The mother earth is giving you everything. Therefore he's called mother. Seven mothers... One of the mothers is this earth. Dhenu dhātrī tathā pṛthvi sapteti mātari smṛtāḥ. Dhenu means cow, and dhātrī means nurse. Tathā pṛthvi. Pṛthvi means this land. So they are taking care of the land, nationalists, and killing the other mother, dhenu. A rascal civilization. If you are taking care of mother, you must take care of all mothers. No, they are mad after the land, but killing the other mother, dhenu. This is called rascaldom. (break) ...to give all comforts to the human brother, and they are sending the animal brother to slaughterhouse. What is this Communist? If you are Communist, if you are equal to all your brothers, why you should discriminate? And our communism is that even there is a snake in your home, you must see that he is not starving. This is spiritual communism. Nobody likes snake. Everyone kills. But śāstra says, "Even a snake is there at your home, you must see that he's not starving." This is communism, perfect. What are these he is collecting?
Devotee: Eggplant.
Prabhupāda: Well, that is.... It is.... It is known to everyone. Kṛṣṇa says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). Anna. Anna means food grains, eatables. You must produce sufficient food grains. Why you are producing tire tube instead of food grains? And just entering your Delhi from Vṛndāvana, a big Goodyear factory, very big factory. You are producing tire tube, then iron, Goodyear and this and that. Where is food grain? And both sides, the field is vacant. Nobody is going to grow food grain. Then why you'll not starve? It is your fault. You are producing tire tube and iron instrument. You are neglecting agriculture. Then why you shall not suffer for want of food grain? And you are pleading, "Indians are starving." Well, why shall not starve if they do not follow Bhagavad-gītā? They are thinking, "By increasing industry in America..." They have got industry, at the same time food grains also. But you are taking to industry without taking care of growing food grains.
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Devotee (3): They say it is the upside-down river. It is more blue on the bottom than it is on the top.
Devotee (2): In factories they put all of their waste into the river. (break)
Devotee (1): Prabhupāda, last night you were describing how people serve their dogs. And now, in the Western countries, they have restaurants where you can take your dog, and he sits at the table with you and they serve a meal for him. And they have catering services. You can call up, and they will bring a special meal to your dog, so he can eat at his home. They have beauty parlors for dogs, everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have taken dogs as God. According to Vedic civilization, dog is untouchable. (break) ...all the centers, then how many days it takes?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: To visit all of our centers in the world?
Prabhupāda: No, Europe, America? That is world round.
The same thing, the Kaṁsa saw that "This my sister, now she is married. So although it will take some long time, but here is the cause." So they are thinking like that. No meat-eating, then all slaughterhouses will be closed: "They're enemy." Although there is no such symptom that slaughterhouse is going to be closed, but they'll think like that. They'll think like that, the same way. There is no ex... (break) ...pregnancy, first, second, third, then eighth, and the child will go, take birth and... They are thinking like that. So the modern civilization, we are everyone saying. Because you have forbidden: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. The whole Western world living on these four pillars. Just see our position. And the same conscious way, everyone is thinking, "If this movement goes on, then how all these nightclubs will go on? How all breweries will go on? How all slaughterhouse will go on, cigarette factories will go on?" This is all foolish. So you cannot expect that we will get more, many friends. That is not possible, because the world is full of Kaṁsas, demons. So we have to struggle and... In the face of so many obstacles we have come to this standard that there is one Hare Kṛṣṇa movement; it is very dangerous to the modern way of life. That much is great, advance. They're feeling the pulse. Now when they are meeting, state obstacles. Everywhere we are meeting obstacles. In Singapore.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it was.... The Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from.... Everyone was coming. So now argument that "If you are.... You are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."
Prabhupāda: That is another thing, but these classes must remain, the teacher class and the student class.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here's what they do. They take the teachers.... This is one of their program. Actually we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years.
Prabhupāda: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class.
Prabhupāda: You don't require it. (break) ...so many materialistic improvements, we require open field like this. We require trees. That is nature's gift. Although we have got this car, we come here to take advantage of nature's gift. Why you have come here? The city was there. I don't like. So actually you enjoy nature's gift. Important persons, they work whole week in the city, and as soon as there is weekend they go to the village. Why? The enjoyment is in the village. They do not like to stay in the factory. It is disgusting. (break)
Devotee (1): Just like sleep. And just like when we're sleeping it's very comfortable, then why should we be afraid of dying? It's very comfortable. Death is just like sleep. When we're sleeping we feel.... So why, then, we should be afraid of death?
Prabhupāda: But you are actually afraid. Why? You say.... You are a great philosopher: "Why should we be afraid?" But if I kill you, immediately you cry. Why? Don't cry. Let peacefully die. I kill you? Why do you protest, "This man is killing me, killing me! Save me! Save me! Save me! Police! Police! Police!" Why? Die peacefully. I am helping you to die peaceful. Why you make me criminal? (break) ...says, "Thou shall not kill." If killing is peaceful, dying is peaceful, why He has prohibited?
Prabhupāda: Just like a criminal is put into the prison house for being punished, he will say, "Just see, I am living happily. I haven't got to work. I'm getting my food." (laughing) Such shameless. He does not know that "I am put here for suffering." But he's thinking "I'm so living happily.... I haven't got to work. Other men, they're going to the office, to the factory. I'm eating." (laughing) He forgets actually he's put into the prison house to suffer. He doesn't come to his senses. Therefore again when he's released, again he comes. He thinks that it is.... In Bengal they call social beggars (indistinct) Social beggars (indistinct) just like son-in-law goes to father-in-law's, and he's well received. So they think that prison house is social beggar (indistinct), another in-law's house.
Hari-śauri: In the West they experience that. That many of the men that go out of prison, they immediately commit some crime so that they can go straight back in...
Prabhupāda: Yes. They think it is very nice. Yes. This is called māyā. He's into suffering, but he thinks this is very nice. It is called prakri badni dasuni (indistinct). (Sanskrit) It is covered. Stool, worm. You take the stool worm from the stool and kick it aside, again it will go.... (laughing) "This is enjoyment. Why you are taking from me?" (laughing)
Prabhupāda: It's a fact. You see the heat and light. It is not the imagination. So who arranged so much heat and light? That is the question. It is not imagination. We have to manufacture a small bolt. It requires a big, big factory's brain. And this has come by chunk? Nonsense. And you have to accept it? These crazy fellows propose and we have to accept.
Devotee (2): (break) ...they say that simply the universe always was, and that it always will be.
Prabhupāda: Whatever is (unclear) nature, there is brain behind. That is the proposal. Why there is, that doesn't matter. But it will continue. World is and will continue. That's a fact. But who made it? That is the question.
Devotee (3): Karandhara and I were at a scientists' meeting, and he used that argument with the scientists. He said "The universe always has been." So Karandhara used your argument that "Yes, the sun has been there, and the sun rays are there along with it. Still, the sun is the source of the sun rays." The scientists could not answer. And everybody in the crowd...
Prabhupāda: What they will answer? Simply speculator, misleading (unclear).
Prabhupāda: That's all right. The life is there. You make some arrangement that it will not take part. That is another thing. If it is a fact that the egg is not life, then why you rascal do not manufacture a chemical egg and get a chicken? Why you rascal talking nonsense? That is our challenge. We say "rascals" not without consideration, because actually they talk like nonsense. Rascals. They cannot do, and still they'll insist they will do. That is rascal. Is it all right? (laughs) South, South America, er, South Africa, there are so many factories of begetting chicken.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The Rainbow Chicken Factory.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the chicken factory, but they're taking the eggs from chicken. Why not manufacture small egg and give to the fermentation and come? There is no question of killing animals. Why they are taking?
Rādhāvallabha: They say God has provided it for us for food.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then you become a dog. God has provided you a dog's body. Take advantage of it and bark. (laughter) Protest. "Why You have made me? Why You are doing?" (laughter)
Hari-śauri: These church fathers that we've just done on the philosophy book, they are simply speculating about what was in the original Bible.
Prabhupāda: No clear conception, scientific idea. Therefore educated persons, they are not interested. "God, give us daily bread." They will say, "Why we shall go to church for begging bread? We can manufacture it, large quantity." (laughs) Why they should go? Formality: "God, give us our daily bread." "Just open a big factory and eat as much bread as we like. Why should we go to God?" (break) ...Jawaharlal Nehru, he took this view, that "For economic development why should you go to the temple, ask this demigod, that demigod, 'Give me this. Give me this'? Develop industry and get money to enjoy." That is his.... (break)...description of God in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam begins: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ (SB 1.1.1). This is God, the origin of everything. Who is there who can challenge this explanation, "The origin of everything"? Now, what is that origin? Whether it is matter or sentient? No. Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś ca abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). He knows everything. Therefore He's a person. Otherwise, how He can be origin of everything? Anvayād itarataś ca. Suppose I.... If I have manufactured this car, then I know every nook and corner of this car, how I have manufactured. One who has manufactured, he knows how it is working, every minute feature. Even an expert driver, he knows how many parts are there, which part is.... Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. If he's abhijñaḥ, if he's completely cognizant of every part of the whole creation, then He has created. (pause) All Santa Monica city?
Prabhupāda: Why don't you say if your movement goes on, there will be no need of that. (laughter)
Kīrtirāja: No lawyers.
Prabhupāda: No need. Simply chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Bas. That's all.
Devotee: No one to run the factories?
Prabhupāda: No, no need. These are anarthas, unnecessary things. So in the Bhāgavata, anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje (SB 1.7.6). When there is bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, all these anarthas useless. Anartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt. People may not misunderstand that we don't want other things. We want everything, but we want central point, Kṛṣṇa. (break) (in car:) ...Bharati, with whom you had some talks, he does not speak anymore?
Hṛdayānanda: We have not heard anything.
Hari-śauri: He tries to cause a disturbance, though, whenever he can. I was told by one of the boys in the Library Party that he's prevented a lot of standing orders being taken by speaking with professors and condemning our movement.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: Ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). This is in Sanskrit, or, you know, ahaṁ mameti. Aham means I, and mama means mine. This is the illusion. Ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair janasya moho 'yam ahaṁ mameti (SB 5.5.8). Gradually.... First of all, there is attraction, male and female, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam. The whole material world existing on sex attachment. Puṁsaḥ means male, and striyā means female. Their attachment. Even before marriage or unity, the attachment is there. Puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ tayor mithaḥ. And when they actually unite, hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ, the hard knot in the heart, hard knot. Then after unity.... If, suppose one is married or united, then they want apartment, gṛha, then field. Formerly they used to earn money by producing food from the field. There was no factory. So ato gṛha-kṣetra, then children, then friends, then accumulation of money, ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittaiḥ (SB 5.5.8). With all these things, the conception of "I" and "mine" increases, and he becomes entangled.
Prabhupāda: That means it is ordained by God that "You have manufactured this, and use it for your destruction." That is nature's way. Film companies, these are?
Hari-śauri: Twentieth Century Fox. It is a very well known film company.
Rāmeśvara: Movie company. This is that park where we sometimes go. When they have this war it will reduce everything, just finish off all the industries and factories. So everything will be reduced to a primitive stage.
Prabhupāda: No, they will again repair.
Rāmeśvara: Again rebuild everything.
Prabhupāda: In Germany.... Just like Germany was finished. The American planes bombed in such a way that Germany was finished, very heavily bombed. One lady in Hamburg, she was showing me one wall, big wall building dismantled, and it has become black on account of bombing. She was showing me how far injustice they have been done.
Rāmeśvara: So then after the war, nothing will change. System of government, the industries, everything will just be rebuilt.
Prabhupāda: They'll try at least. Just like after the Second World War, Germany or England finished. They could not recoup. They are now poverty-stricken.
Prabhupāda: They drink this water? No.
Mādhavānanda: But of all the lakes in this part of the country, this lake is the cleanest. But still it is not clean. They ruin all the waterways with the factories' wastes. When I was flying to Detroit, I passed over the lake and I saw big oil slicks all along the shores.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Just like the Kāliya serpent, poisoning the river. But you have come to dance on their heads, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Sometimes our boys, when they go into the city, they see the big buildings like the teeth of Aghāsura. But they say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda will protect us. We will go into the smelly city, we will distribute the books in the belly of the city, but Śrīla Prabhupāda will come and he will protect us." (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: What price they want for this island?
Mādhavānanda: Very large amount.
Prabhupāda: What is that sound? Airplane?
Mādhavānanda: There is a very large factory over there. You can see the smokestacks. What is it? What kind of factory? Electrical company.
Prabhupāda: We have got open place, but not very pleasant. You cannot sit down for a long time. The wind is cold.
Mādhavānanda: Very beautiful here, all over the grounds. There's also very beautiful places over there and all over.
Prabhupāda: So develop it nicely. (break) ...fruit and flower trees. Mango trees, all fruits, banana, papaya, jackfruit, apple, guava...
Hari-śauri: Pineapple.
Prabhupāda: Pineapple. And flowers.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: When we are traveling on the road we see so much land not used. And we think "Why not take everyone out of the factories, let them plant fruit and flower trees along the roads all over the country and build beautiful ponds. So everyone can bathe when they walk, for refreshment." Just like in Caitanya-caritāmṛta. I think Nṛsiṁha Brahmacārī, he was building a road for Lord Caitanya, very nicely.
Prabhupāda: No, they will create slaughterhouse, brothel, then liquor shop, gambling house. That's all.
Mādhavānanda: This is our biggest book distributor of the men-Pañca-tattva dāsa. One day in the airport he distributed three hundred Śrīmad-Bhāgavatams in one day. That is the record.
Prabhupāda: Hardbound Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?
Pañca-tattva: Yes.
Prabhupāda: How did you sell so many? Unless you have got supernatural power.
Mādhavānanda: Kṛṣṇa empowered him.
Prabhupāda: Actually, it is not.... It is uncommon.
Jagadīśa: You've explained this to me a number of times, and I think I'm beginning to understand.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge is spiritual knowledge. Tattva-jñānārtha-darśanam. Now, of course, social conditions have changed. There are so many factories, and they require technical knowledge. But we are not going to the factories. That is sure and certain. Neither we are going to start any factory. That is not our business. Our factory at most, cut cut, hut hut, that's all. We don't want to start factory or Ford factory and make a hell out of life, the hell.
Hari-śauri: I used to work in a steel works. It's worse than hell.
Prabhupāda: It is more than hell. There is no life. I have been in Tata steel iron factory. I saw it is a hell. One melting pot just like a skyscraper building. You have seen?
Hari-śauri: I used to work on them, same thing.
Prabhupāda: And after this hard labor, his only recreation is wine. Did you drink?
Hari-śauri: (laughs) Yes, we used to go straight from the steel works to the pub, public house.
Jagadīśa: I also worked in a factory for a while. Same thing. And people were always getting hurt.
Prabhupāda: You are not meant for that. (laughs)
Hari-śauri: No.
Prabhupāda: I thought you joined from college?
Jagadīśa: Yes, but during the summer I had a job in a factory.
Prabhupāda: Oh, to get some money.
Jagadīśa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: This girl Elizabeth paid so much money; it is due to Govardhana.
Prabhupāda: German people still hate England. They do not like to speak in English; that I have seen. In the bank they know English, but they won't speak it. English everyone knows. The Kaiser was against. They said that Kaiser is the grandson of Queen Victoria, from daughter's side. And King George from the son's side—Edward's seventh son. They were cousin brothers. So this Kaiser, when he was young boy, went to paternal uncle's house, when he was a young boy. So there was some playing, cut with a knife. So royal family, so many doctors came. So the boy was saying, "Why you are trying to cure it? Let the English blood go away." So from the childhood he was so inimical, that "I have got some English blood in my body, my mother is English, father German, so let the English blood go away." I do not know if that is fact, I heard it. (laughs) Maybe. It is joking also and serious. In our childhood in school, a book was there, "England's Work in India." One Mr. M. Ghosh, he wrote this book just to flatter the Englishmen. This, that "white man's burden." And it was the impression in those days: just to become like Englishmen, that is civilization. The Parsees in Bombay, they were the first-class flatterer, imitation, how to become like English lords, barons. This Tata factory was started by such ambition. They wanted to be English baron, lord, industrialist. In Calcutta also. Where our temple is, that is called saheb quarter. In our childhood we used to say saheb quarter. Saheb quarter means European neighborhood. They say our temple is saheb mandira in Māyāpur. And in Vṛndāvana aṇgrejī mandira. The same impression. To become saheb, that was great prestigious.
Prabhupāda: Without them, the factories cannot go on. That's all. The white men cannot work so hard. How they...? No gentleman can do that. This kind of work is meant for the fourth-class, fifth-class men. Therefore they cannot say anything. They require. And they know that their money will be taken away again by supplying them wine. They'll pay, and next moment, the wine merchant will take away. And the government will get huge profit without doing anything. And excise tax. Excise tax, government hasn't got to invest or do anything—simply take the tax.
Hari-śauri: Every time they put a tax increase, it's always on beer and cigarettes. Always, every time. And motorcars. Because they know the people are so much addicted that even if they squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, they will still get more, and the people will still pay.
Prabhupāda: And addicted people, they, they're after the.... Get money some way or other. Beg, borrow or steal. So these black men especially, they are expert. They are not expert in begging, but borrowing and stealing.
Prabhupāda: These things are not required at all, but they have created. They are called anartha, unnecessarily diverting valuable attention of the human being to waste their time and energy and next life become a dog. That they do not know. This science is unknown to them. They'll believe, "This life finished, everything finished. That's all." (break) ...is working. That they do not know. Life is eternal, and how they are under the cycle of birth and death, nothing. Yāvad jīvet sukhaṁ jīvet.(?) Cārvāka philosophy. So long you live, live happily. But actually they are not living happily. To work in this factory is not happy. They are not happy men. But they are thinking they are happy. Just like the hog eating stool, he is happy. This is gross ignorance. Actually, therefore, there is revolt against these capitalist. There is another unhappiness. Now there is strike. So where is happiness? If there is happiness, why there is strike? Why there is so many strikes? Why there is protest? There is no happiness. But they are thinking... Whole thing is based on ignorance, māyā. Anartha upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. And the direct method for subduing these anarthas, unnecessary troubles-bhakti-yoga. There is no other. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasya ajānataḥ (SB 1.7.6). People do not know it. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām. Therefore Vyāsadeva, most learned scholar, he has made this Bhāgavatam. Anarthopaśamaṁ sākṣāt. (break) I was translating the Bhāgavata, Eighth Canto, Twelfth Chapter.
- mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
- jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
- mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
- na cāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ
- (BG 9.4)
Why should we think this world is mithyā when it is created by God? Does God create anything false? No. When it is created by God.... When we think that "I create some business, some factory, that is my pleasure," but if somebody else thinks it, it is for his pleasure, that is māyā. The world is created by God, He has got some motive, so if the world, cosmic manifestation, is utilized for His purpose, then it is spiritual. Otherwise, it is material.
Kīrtanānanda: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy."
Prabhupāda: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence.
Kulaśekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Kṛṣṇa paints them with thought.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature"—what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Kṛṣṇa. Parāsya śaktir vividaiva śrūyate. Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahāprabhu has therefore given a simple formula-chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: He was describing about that factory. So they are working in the factory, what do they care for hell? Even if we go to hell, they will get some good salary, that's all. Money required, then I can drink nicely. The standard is there. Now this qualification, abhayaṁ sattva-saṁśuddhir, what is that? It does not strike them at all, these qualities are high qualities. Is it not? This is the... What is the translation?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Fearlessness, purification of one's existence."
Prabhupāda: And who is fearless? Everyone is fearful. And fearlessness is good quality, who understands it? Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunaṁ ca, this is animal life. To eat, sleep, sex and become fearful, that is animal life. And one has to become fearless. So who cares for it? They are thinking to become fearless means to keep gun. That is also one way. Then, fearlessness and...?
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: "Purification of one's existence."
Prabhupāda: That they do not know. When they fall sick, then they want to purify, go to the physician, but his whole life is impure, he doesn't know. Because it is impure, therefore they are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they do not know. But if you scrutinizingly examine all these different items of advancement of life, the modern man has no idea. That is being explained in this chapter. Therefore there is no such education, neither people are interested. Now higher art classes in the colleges, universities, no student will join. They are simply learning technological process.
Prabhupāda: Ugra-karmāṇaḥ, the factory. This is ugra-karma. Pradyumna was describing ugra-karma, hellish. Little karma, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient. What is the use of opening big, big factory? Ugra-karma. What it has helped? You were talking on behalf of them. What it has helped? Keeping them. Innocent men, women, they are kept in that factory simply for livelihood. A little work will provide his needs. Nature has given so much facility. They can grow little food anywhere. The cows are there in the pasturing ground. Take milk and live peacefully. Why you open factories? What is the use? Keeping them in hellish condition of life. So this is the description. Now discuss these points.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: You say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they engage in unbeneficial horrible works meant to destroy the world and that this refers to the atomic weapons. This is so true.
Prabhupāda: Yes, God's speaking, Kṛṣṇa is speaking.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes these people are called duṣkṛtina. And you've mentioned that the duṣkṛtina, actually he has some intelligence, misused.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Intelligence. After destroying the wood, you use your intelligence to construct this house. You have intelligence, there is no doubt. Human being must have intelligence. But that intelligence is given to him for getting out of the clutches of birth, death, old age and disease. He's not utilizing that intelligence for that purpose, therefore duṣkṛtina. Intelligence he has got. We don't say that modern world, they are unintelligent, fools. No, they have got intelligence. But the intelligence is being utilized for duṣkarya, which he should not have done. Duṣkarya. Karya and duṣkarya-work and bad work. His intelligence was given so that he could get relief from these clutches of birth, death, old age and disease, but that he's not utilizing. He's opening factory and creating another bad atmosphere. Therefore duṣkṛtina. To open a factory requires intelligence. So many machine is working, that's all right, but how this intelligence being used? To keep man in a hellish condition of life. Therefore duṣkṛtina.
Devotee (2): They are also very narrowminded. Just like they open a factory, but they're not thinking of the effects of the factory.
Prabhupāda: Because therefore duṣkṛtina, mūḍha, next word. Because they are mūḍha, therefore duṣkṛtina.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: At the same time it's said that Kṛṣṇa gives the intelligence, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam.
Prabhupāda: You wanted to do, Kṛṣṇa gives you intelligence. You want to manufacture a very complicated machine, Kṛṣṇa will give you intelligence, "All right, do like this, manufacture." He'll not hear Kṛṣṇa, sarva dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). That is Kṛṣṇa's intelligence, that "You rascal, give up this all this." But he'll not do it. Want to do it, but Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, do it, see the effect." Without Kṛṣṇa's help we cannot do anything.
Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you have called the politicians representative of Hiraṇyakaśipu, they are trying to become immortal. Just like devotees, but without...
Prabhupāda: Yes, this... There are two kinds of men already described, daiva asura eva ca. These two kinds of activities will go on. This is material world. You cannot find out cent percent perfect man. That is not possible. There are a class of men, imperfect, will be there. But it is being described who is imperfect and who is perfect. That you have to select. You cannot clear this material world of imperfect persons. That is not possible. There will be remain, but you must know who is perfect and who is imperfect. And make your choice, whether you want to remain imperfect or want to make progress to become perfect. That is up to you.
Prabhupāda: Do that. There are so many overpopulation, and you can do it in America. So much land lying vacant here.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Better to put the people in factories in the fields. If they are going to work, let them work growing grain and milking the cows.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then they will live very happily. That will not do. Jagato 'hitāḥ. Read it.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: Kṣayāya jagato 'hitāḥ
Prabhupāda: Kṣayāya, kṣayāya means all for ruination, bringing ruin, ruination. So save them from ruination. Actually I've seen in New York, some quarter so nasty. In London also, so nasty. Disaster. So many storefront, lying vacant houses. I was, when I had no business, I was loitering to see the city. Hellish condition. They said it was risky, but I did not know that it was risky. One electrician, he was my friend, "Oh, Swamiji, you are going in those quarters? It is not for you, don't." "Oh, I do not care. What I have got they will take from me?" So I was loitering in New York City. So many nasty quarters. London also. So many houses vacant.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So then, is it true then that people who have this conception, they would not try for progress?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Progress... The thing is that if you try progress vainly, what is the use of trying? If it is a fact you cannot change your destiny, so why should you try for that? Better... That is the... Tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta. Therefore whatever energy you have got, you utilize it for understanding Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Make it clear. Just like our society. We are, our main business is how to make advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We are not very enthusiastic to open big, big factories and big, big money-earning machine. No. We are not interested. We'll be satisfied with the amount of happiness or distress, whatever we are destined. Let us utilize our energy for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the point. So the Vedic civilization is meant for realization of God. Viṣṇur aradhyate. So they try for that. And now, at the present moment.... Actually, the varṇāśrama-dharmi, they never tried for economic development. You'll find in India still, thousands of men taking bath in the Ganges. In the Kumbhamela... You have been in Kumbhamela?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupāda: Benefit will be then the whole thing will go in order. That is already described many times, that there must be brain, there must be arms, there must be belly, there must be legs for the complete composition of the body. If there is no brain, there is no head, then what is the use of these arms and legs and belly? It is all dead. So in the society, human society, if there is not a class of selected, truthful, honest, and so many brahminical qualifications, then society is ruined. Therefore they are perplexed. Everyone is a śūdra. Go to the factory. That's all. Go to the factory and bring money. And he is getting 25 dollars or 50 dollars daily and immediately purchasing wine and flat on Bowery Street. You'll produce such men, useless men, disturbing in the human society. You cannot make classless. If you make classless, naturally they will be all śūdras, fourth-class men. Then there will be society chaos.
Prabhupāda: That... The same story, that some frogs were there, and children was throwing stone. Then the frogs appealed, "Sir, why you are throwing stone upon us?" "No, we are playing." "So what is play for you, it is death to us." So these rascals are playing, and we have to pay heavy tax for that. This is going on. We are playing, making some scientific research, and who will pay for that? You. You work hard in the factory and pay tax. This is civilization. "You pay tax, and we spend it as we like." Frivolity(?). This is going on. This is the government of Kali-yuga. What can you do?
Devotee (2): "In God We Trust."
Prabhupāda: "What is play to you is death to us." And "Never mind. You die. We play." They have already spent so much money, moon exploration. And that has stopped now, no benefit. They brought some sand and some rock, satisfied. Again the same thing with Mars. But we can say from our poor knowledge that as they have failed in the moon planet, they will fail also in the Mars. Take it down. Note now. Do you know this is all bluff?
Prabhupāda: And as soon as I heard that prime minister went to open this, I immediately...
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda didn't want to meet him.
Prabhupāda: "Oh, he's a rascal."
Hari-śauri: In Mauritius the prime minister opened a chicken factory.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Yes, he's a Hindu too.
Prabhupāda: Immediately I gave up the idea of meeting this rascal. (break)
Hari-śauri: Of course, they'll always try to claim...
Prabhupāda: From our estimation it is failure. They have not gone there.
Prabhupāda: But what is their standard of failure and success?
Hari-śauri: Well, they don't... They're establishing a standard now. They don't have a standard. They are always going to try to claim that it is beneficial. Otherwise, if it's judged a failure, then they won't get any money.
Prabhupāda: That way they are successful—in getting money.
Darby: ...don't need education then to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are coming from Detroit? There are so many factories for four-wheel vehicles, and there is no factory to educate man to the right path. Perhaps... This is our little attempt, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, how to educate to the right path. We are not getting any help, either from the authority... In our own way, as far as possible, we are doing. When people will be educated they will be able to understand who is guru, who is not guru. We can say, but who is going to accept? We say always that they are all rascals, but who will accept our statement? And the state, (if) there had been a department to see what is the qualification of guru, then immediately they would have taken steps. Just like in Kṛṣṇa's time one man falsely presented himself as God. Immediately his head was cut off. Pauṇḍraka. So the state must be very strong to punish the miscreant. But there is no such state.
Prabhupāda: So you are searching, you are surprised how this direction is coming. Here is the answer, mattaḥ, "from Me." The answer is there.
Sadāpūta: A comparison can be made with things like this, and, say, a computerized factory. A computerized factory, there has to be direction all the time, or else it breaks down.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that direction is coming from Kṛṣṇa. He is all-perfect.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The instructions are given so vividly here, that first there is called the initiation step. It has to get specific information coded in this, they are called bases, and now, then it elongates, and then finally it's called stop signal. There's some message coming that "You stop right there." And if there is some mistake or something wrong along the path, then there will be a correction signal: "You made a mistake, so correct there." This type of...
Prabhupāda: Just see how perfect. How perfect it is. (laughs) Pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation). Because the direction is coming from the pūrṇam, complete, so correction is made and everything is done, everything nicely. Because the direction is coming from the complete perfect, there cannot be any mistake. That's it.
Prabhupāda: That economic development. Our ācāryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyāsadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa (SB 4.8.41, Cc. Ādi 1.90), he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Nārada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kāma mokṣa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra śrīmad-bhāgavate (SB 1.1.2), in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, dharma, artha, kāma, mokṣa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra (SB 1.1.2). So this kaitava, Śrīdhara Swami gives his commentary, atra mokṣa-vāñchan paryantaṁ nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business.
Prabhupāda: What is this factory?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayānanda, what kind of factory is this?
Jayānanda: Steel. They make sheet metal. It's owned by the railroad company.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another thing we're using it for is we're using this for parking garage also. So we save the money for that, too. (break) (in car)
Rāmeśvara: No, they have just reduced to one cart.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They only had one cart. This was their old cart. Then last year they built a new cart. So this was just in storage there, not being used.
Prabhupāda: It is very strongly built.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a big factory that makes weapons.
Rāmeśvara: He hates the Communists. He hates them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's why the American government likes him. A lot of big politicians in America are backing him because he's anti-Communist and he's a big man in Korea.
Prabhupāda: So he's already a big man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, he's an industrialist.
Rāmeśvara: He became famous during the Korean war with the Chinese. He fought against the Chinese, and then he became very wealthy. As a result of that war he became very wealthy. He was selling ammunition.
Prabhupāda: America was in favor of Korea?
Rāmeśvara: They were trying to prevent the Chinese from conquering.
Prabhupāda: During Truman's?
Rāmeśvara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So this Paul Murray... Haridāsa left New York, he went to San Francisco. His name was something else. What is this?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a steel factory. This is near the Ratha-yātrā carts.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Steel factory, but very good house?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Paul Murray, he was the boy that went crazy?
Prabhupāda: Yes, he was LSD man.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: LSD man. He tried to attack you.
Prabhupāda: Not attack, but he showed some ferocious mood. I thought...
Devotee (1): Very dangerous.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So you thought to leave right away.
Prabhupāda: Yes, immediately.
Prabhupāda: Six years, yes. So we are inviting everyone, "Come here. Such a nice house given by George (laughs). You live here comfortably, eat nicely, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." We don't want any factory work.
George Harrison: No.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Simply kartal and mṛdaṅga. Still, people do not come. They'll prefer to go the factory, whole day work in the hell. (laughs) They prefer.
George Harrison: I suppose some day the whole of the world will just be chanting in the country.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible, but if some of the leading men, they take it seriously, then others will follow. Just like in our book, your signature is there, "Oh, George Harrison. Yes." They take it without any consideration. Kṛṣṇa book. Yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad evetaro janaḥ (BG 3.21). If the leading man does something, then his followers also do. This is the way. So if some of the leading men of the world, they take this movement seriously, then people will be happy. There's no doubt about it. You have come alone, without any associate?
Prabhupāda: Very good. They are all happy?
Bhagavān: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Let them come and work little, grow food, eat and chant. Why should they bother going to the factory, running at five o'clock? Horrible life, horrible civilization? Motor accident, delayed, anxiety, "Oh, I am delayed, I am delayed." What is this civilization?
Bhagavān: He is taking over there, you take here?
Prabhupāda: All right, I shall begin there. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee: Jaya Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)
Harikeśa: You once said in Vṛndāvana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varṇāśrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the śūdras, and brāhmaṇas are not meant for this.
Prabhupāda: And he does not find any land to move the grapes.
Bhagavān: What was that, Śrīla Prabhupāda? He has so much land?
Devotee (1): There is a law by which it's very difficult to move grapes anywhere. So he's trying to get permission from the maire to do it. (break)
Bhagavān: ...built a big factory here to engage people who were socially misfit, and he was making all kinds of plastic toys. So when we moved in we suggested that he help manufacture Spiritual Sky. So now almost his whole factory is being used. Many young Indian boys who have come to France looking for something, they had no money. So he has employed them here. So they're working, they've brought their families.
Prabhupāda: They're established.
Bhagavān: Yes, and he's building them houses. (breaks)
Prabhupāda: I think it's unusual in Europe.
Bhagavān: This is the factory here.
Prabhupāda: Factory of the proprietor? The proprietor?
Bhagavān: Yes, and he rents to Spiritual Sky.
Devotee (3): These incense packs, we are reorganizing the stock now.
Prabhupāda: Where you are selling?
Devotee (3): Everywhere in France. We're doing now also Germany and also Holland and Belgium.
Prabhupāda: Where it is printed?
Hari-śauri: These are all from the U.S. I think.
Devotee (3): No, it's from France. We started a few months ago. Everything now is organized in France.
Prabhupāda: These are all essential oils?
Devotee (3): Yes, this is all perfume here.
Hari-śauri: So all I have to do is just make some working arrangement.
Prabhupāda: No, that work is recommended. Your question is how Kṛṣṇa is giving you instruction. Just like food, Kṛṣṇa says annād bhavanti bhūtāni (BG 3.14). You produce anna. Kṛṣṇa never said that you produce tire tubes. Never says.
Hari-śauri: But the same example, in the West, we weren't so materially prosperous until we started industrialism. The prosperity was not there until we started our big factories.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Just like in India, there was no industry at all. Until the British period, there was no industry. Not a single. Even in Muhammadan period there was no industry, and they were happy. There was no industry. The Muhammadans also did not know how to start industry. It is Western imported, larger scale industry. Cottage industry was there.
Hari-śauri: Such a high standard of living, that was not available to as many people as there is now.
Prabhupāda: What is that higher standard? When there was no industry, in India, there was full of gold, jewelries. And now there is plastic.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) There was no water. All over Europe there is no cloud. No water.
Girirāja: No water?
Prabhupāda: No water.
Harikeśa: Big drought. They just had to close the factories in Wales because there's no water now.
Girirāja: It's a reaction to their sinful activities.
Prabhupāda: It will be increasing throughout the whole world. Anāvṛṣṭi.
Hari-śauri: They think it's just happening by chance.
Prabhupāda: Godless civilization, sinful activities. The reaction will increase, no rainfall, scarcity of foodgrains, and government taxes. These are written in Bhāgavata. Anāvṛṣṭi-durbhikṣa... Government will exact tax more.
Prabhupāda: Jaundice. They cannot eat much milk product.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. Cow is the biggest factory to produce protein, first-class proteins for human beings. Instead of taking advantage of the products of the factory, they eat out the factory itself.
Prabhupāda: So we see practically in our farm the cows give more milk than other farms.
Dr. Patel: The satisfaction of the animal.
Prabhupāda: They are very satisfied. You have been in New Vrindaban with me? No, you were not. So the cows are so happy that... Just like in India. They are walking here and there.
Dr. Patel: They don't do anything. Now they have, they have (Hindi), brought some crossing and each cow, Jersey cows and Indian cows, they have crossed and they are producing more than thirty, forty liters of milk every day.
Prabhupāda: One liter means?
Dr. Patel: Two pounds.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is śūdra. Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. Who is going to become brāhmaṇa? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brāhmaṇa." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brāhmaṇa he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class.
Dr. Patel: Mathematics?
Prabhupāda: No. Higher studies, nobody comes. Only technology. The higher class, higher studies class, they are being closed. The professors are getting no job. We have a friend, Dr. Henderson, he is a doctor in higher mathematics, he is not getting job. No students, nobody is interested in higher... Similarly, many other things, and literatures.
Dr. Patel: Here also the same thing, nobody. And Sanskrit practically nil.
Prabhupāda: And philosophy class, closed. Here I think also. Nobody... They think "What is the use of speculation?"
Indian: At Kurukṣetra, one Sanskrit university they are planning.
Prabhupāda: Vedic university. So that is our plan. We have asked government to give us land.
Gargamuni: And then take out.
Prabhupāda: Yes, then do that. And we are inviting everyone. We have no distinction. Anyone can come to the park. Convince them. (continued on another tape) "Come on! Take prasādam "sumptuously." They'll be satisfied. They are hungry. Actually they are hungry, poorly paid, capitalist and worker. The trouble is, capitalists, they are taking all the profit, and they are enjoying life in wine and women. Naturally the worker will see that "Why? We are working so hard, and they are making profit, and they are enjoying, and we do not live in a very nice house. It is a slum." Naturally they will be envious. If the capitalists spend the money for Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in each and every factory they hold festivals and give them eatables like anything everything will be successful.
Prabhupāda: The industrialists... That is also one of our programs. Let them hold festivals every Sunday, as we hold. And we shall go and have kīrtana and sumptuous feeding give. They'll be very satisfied. And instead of giving the income tax, let them spend in this way. Convince them.
Jayapatākā: At the factories. Weekly foodstuffs. They feed all the workers. We'll prepare the prasāda, offer to the Deity and feed to all the workers.
Prabhupāda: They'll be satisfied.
Gargamuni: Presently the building they're in now is unbearable, as far as living
Prabhupāda: Why?
Gargamuni: Well, it is old building. Water supply is very bad.
Prabhupāda: So you cannot...
Gargamuni: It is a rotten building.
Prabhupāda: Rotten cannot be repaired?
Gargamuni: No. And the landlord won't allow him here.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Gargamuni: Because he wants to get us out...
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he...
Gargamuni: But he won't allow any repair.
Prabhupāda: So within four hundred years everything finished. (laughs) Everything built up and everything finished.
Prabhā Viṣṇu: You said before it was all propaganda.
Maṇihāra: Now the Indians are coming from India, setting up big business in England. They're controlling big factories, business, so many mills, everything. In Manchester, where I come from...
Prabhupāda: There is agitation to drive away the Indians.
Maṇihāra: Now they are trying to drive away. Because they know they have money. They are taking over.
Prabhupāda: Money and intelligence also. They can organize the English very nicely. And they're not extravagant. European and American, as soon as they get money they spend it. And Indians know how to save something. I saw in London almost all Indians have got their own house. Maybe small house, it doesn't matter. But they have got their own quarters. Every Indian. And they're living very comfortably. Englishmen, local men, renting.
Maṇihāra: Big, big blocks.
Prabhupāda: And many Indians, they have come from Africa.
Prabhupāda: We have no objection, because our principle is kṛṣṇa-bhakti nitya-siddha. So Kṛṣṇa bhakti is there in everyone. So leper and non-leper. Just like our Vivekananda, he took up daridra-nārāyaṇa. This is an absurd proposition. Nārāyaṇa is never daridra. But if you put this argument, that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, so if Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, why you take up only daridra-nārāyaṇa? Why not dhanī-nārāyaṇa also? If you have got so broad vision that Nārāyaṇa is everywhere, therefore we see everyone, so why you particularly take the daridra-nārāyaṇa? Similarly, Kṛṣṇa bhakti is everywhere. It is in the leper or non-leper. So why should we take particularly the lepers? So that is outwardly a social service that they are taking care of the leper. So if that vision it will not be right. Kṛṣṇa bhakti even requires, even a karmī like big, big owner of factories, he's more diseased than the leper. Because he has no Kṛṣṇa bhakti. So we have to take care of the leper and the richest man also if he has no Kṛṣṇa bhakti.
Prabhupāda: I have seen, Gandhi wanted to organize a program, village (break) ...in the field, that this program for constructing toilet in the village, they have spent so much. You know that? The first business was toilet. To restrict them to pass stool here and there, they must have. Now in constructing that toilet paraphernalia, (indistinct), they... Therefore it failed, village organization. Not for that purpose. There were many purpose. Because they had no engagement, so why they should remain in the village? There are so many attraction in the city, and they get money. The factory-wallas, they're inviting, "Come here. You shall get twenty rupees per day." Why shall he remain in the village? So if you can organize in the villages, they are interested in chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and getting nice prasādam, then... One must have some attachment. In the city there are so many artificial attachments. So on what ground they'll remain in the village? Mind, always remember this. Unless you have got some attachment, there is no possibility. Gandhi's program was very nice, village organize so that they may not come to the city and help the capitalists. Remain satisfied in the village. But where is that satisfaction? That is the failure.
Prabhupāda: A broker club business. So the businessmen, the zamindars, and gradually they started their factories, railways, in this way they started. And they are big politicians, so it is their management. And they failed when things were mismanaged. First of all they created friendship, and later on when they were in power, they created enmity. Then it is failed.
Devotee: Hm.
Prabhupāda: First of all friendship, and that established them. And then they began to create enmity. Hindus against Muslim, Muslim... They wanted to stay. When they forgot this idea that if they wanted to stay for the benefit of the people, nobody could drive them away. But their policy was for the benefit of the English people. Therefore they failed. Lord Curzon, he says a statement that, "If you want to stay in India, rule India for the benefit of Indian people. You can keep control over India. They are fond of kings, so one member of the royal family can become king here and they'll earn respect and honor (from) these Indian people. But rule for their benefit. Then British Empire will stay." Very good advice, but his advice was not taken. You have seen Lord Curzon's statue near the, in front of the Victoria Memorial Hall?
Haṁsadūta: Hm.
Prabhupāda: There is no hope of their coming. And Gargamuni's father tried so much to get him back. Then he became hopeless.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: He was pet child of his father and mother and practically they closed their factory and everything. They become, they divorced and (indistinct).
Haṁsadūta: Collapse.
Prabhupāda: Collapse. I sent Gargamuni, go and...
Haṁsadūta: I remember he went home for sometime.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: To try get into that business.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The millions of liquor manufacturers, breweries, millions of gambling houses, so, cigarette factories, so theoretically if this movement is successful then whole civilization is finished. So they are now looking... Because these young men have taken seriously so they are threatened and they are making a strong party to fight with us. They cannot safely say that (indistinct) this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement they are (indistinct) a charge against my movement or me that I am kidnapping young men. That is their (indistinct). I am not kidnapping, I am not going to their house to kidnap. They are coming to us. (Hindi)
- kṛṣṇot-kīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau premāmṛtāmbho-nidhī
- dhīrādhīra-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pūjitau
- śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau...
The gosvāmīs, they are śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau. Now prove! They are descendants, now prove: come forward. Śrī-caitanya-kṛpā-bharau. Simply sitting at home. And in Bengal there is Nityānanda-vaṁśa. What is Nityānanda-vaṁśa? Nityānanda went forward before Jagāi-Mādhāi and He was hurt. Blood came out. Where is that Nityānanda-vaṁśa? Fight between Jagāi-Mādhāi and Nityānanda.
Prabhupāda: Hm. A vaiśya means he should provide food. So food means agriculture and giving protection to the cows. If you have got sufficient food grains and milk, the whole food question is solved. And these rascals, they are not giving protection to the cows, but they are killing cows. So there is no third-class men even. All fourth-class. So how you can be happy under the control of fourth-class men? There is no first-class men, no second-class men, even no third-class. That means all fourth-class, fifth-class. That's all. This is the human society, combination of fourth, fifth, tenth-class men. Tenth-class. The fourth-class... There are fourth-class men and more than that, fifth-class men, uncivilized. Aborigines, they are fifth class. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ (SB 2.4.18). There are so many. In the human civilized... Civilization means there must be first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Then rest all fifth-class, up to tenth-class. But at the present moment there is some fourth-class men and all fifth-class, sixth-class, up to tenth-class. So how we can be happy? There is no first-class men, there is no second-class men, not even third-class men. Who is caring for agriculture? They are preparing Goodyear tire. Now eat tires. You rascal, eat tires. How long you'll eat tires? If there is no customer for tire, that means... So that is coming. And I went to Detroit about six months ago. There're factories.
Prabhupāda: Bechel (?). So we want so many men to live there nicely, to eat sumptuously, and preach this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I have seen while coming from Vṛndāvana to Delhi, hundreds and thousands of young men. They are going to the factories on cycle, coming from distant place, at least twenty miles, twenty-five miles, and it takes two hours to reach the factory or more than that. And there he works hard eight hours and then again goes back, two hours, three hours, on cycle. I do not know what kind of rest he takes. This is life. And if we request these young men that "You come here. You live here comfortably. You eat here sumptuously and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa," they will not. Just see how unfortunate they are. Mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ (SB 1.1.10). This is Kali-yuga. All bad men, unfortunate and disturbed. This is the position. They will work so hard, they'll catch daily passenger trains, Calcutta, Bombay, I have seen. They are actually hanging, and some of them are falling down, lost life, and coming from hundred miles away. But still, if you ask him that "You come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." Even with your family you can come." We are doing that at Māyāpur. He will not. How strong sense gratification propensity is. This is position of Kali-yuga. They are making propaganda, ruṭi kāpar makān.
Prabhupāda: They say it will be a unique temple in Bombay. (break)
Mr. Malhotra: My son is getting married on 24th of January. The younger son who went to factory this morning. He is getting married. And we are going, taking bride from here to Juhu. There is Hotel Horizon there, near Kṛṣṇa Land. So the bride will be staying there in Horizon, and then from there procession will be going to Sun and Sand, so on 24th. Whether you will be in Bombay or not? 24th January?
Prabhupāda: May not. Because Kumbha-mela is there. (break)
Mr. Malhotra: ...at auditorium. This road goes to Bangalore straight, and we go to Mahabalesvara. This side.
Prabhupāda: Bangalore how many miles?
Mr. Malhotra: Total, from Poona, 520 miles. And you go from here on this road only to Goa also. To go to Madras, you go also on this road (break) ...dolak.(?) Some (indistinct) will give... I mean sounds are different, you know, instruments are music.
Prabhupāda: This is called musical science, Jala-taraṅga. Jala, taraṅga means vibration, different vibrations. Still there are, among the musicians, there are artists, they'll put vials and make the different tunes by filling it with water.
1977 Conversations and Morning Walks
Hari-śauri: Factories.
Prabhupāda: Factories and industry and export and import and then slaughterhouse, drinking, prostitute—these are all British contribution. In India, before that, they did not know, although there was Muhammadan kingdom. Muhammadans were happy as ruler. They did not... They thought that "Let them execute their own religion, and let us our religion." That was the relation. And Hindus, they took it that "Somebody must be government..." (break) ...policy that "If the Indians remain as Indian, it will be impossible to govern. Give them education and condemn everything Indian." And they engaged their own men, engaged our men, and gradually they developed the industry. Naturally people became very much astonished: "Oh, they are making such a nice bridge. We have now laid down the railway. We have got facilities, so on, so on..." They gave them, for developing these enterprises, a little knowledge in English, ABCD, they would get good job. In this way they established. Money and export, import... This business enterprise and industry, these..., all these things, were introduced. There was not a single factory before British days. Industry idea is completely Western. And tea garden.
Prabhupāda: Hundreds and thousands. Here, of course, we have not so many cars, but there in many cities I have seen. They have gathered together, and then they are pressed and thrown to the iron factory and again melted in fire of... So similarly, when the life is not there, it is a lump of matter. So it is lump of matter. Just like the motorcar. When it was being driven by driver, it has value, but when it is not to be driven anymore, it has no value. Similarly... But the motorcar is the same. It is the driver that is important. Similarly, the soul is important, not this body. But the modern civilization, accepting this body as the important, and they have no information of the driver, soul.
Jagadīśa: With just a stick.
Prabhupāda: Yes, with a stick. (chuckles) They are so submissive. The cow is going this side, "Raa-raa!"—immediately. (Jagadīśa laughs) When in Bible they say, "The animal is given to the care of man," like that... There is. This is care of, not that "Because we care of, we shall kill them." What is this interpretation? How demonic this Western civilization. "Because Jesus Christ, the God, has given the animals to our care, therefore we shall kill and eat." Anyway, try to introduce a renovation of civilization. Therefore they are trying to oppose us. Now they are conscious about the movement, that "If it is allowed to increase, then our program will be finished. And young men are taking. They are not rejecting." That is their concern. They are concerned about their business and industry. If these young men are held up in plain living, then where their industry...? Industry means to exploit the work of others and give them one dollar and make profit ten dollars. This is industry, at the cost of others some capitalist gaining huge profit. This is industry. "And let them live in a hellish condition, go to hell. Never mind. You work in the factory, and we make profit."
Pradyumna: "If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk, and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh, and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling, individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and warfields at the whims of a particular man? It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk." It's nice. You compare the warfield and the factory. I think people appreciate that. You compare the factory with the warfield.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So whatever thought comes to me, I discuss as far as possible. Why these things are... Therefore I want to organize this farm project. Let there be ideal. And it is becoming ideal in America. People are coming even from the school, college, they are coming to see New Vrindaban. And there was section where our enemies, they are not disturbing. So they are appreciating. Still we are not thoroughly organized, but still they're appreciating. They'll appreciate. One day will come they'll appreciate. And other parents, as they come and thank me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that..." Many parents came when I was in Los Angeles.
Prabhupāda: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying. We shall do in future"—these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that "I am trying to become a millionaire." But he cannot say that "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying I have to accept you are scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, Chemical Evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea. He has written one book, Scientific Basis of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. So he challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" The answer—"That I cannot say." Why he talks nonsense? He is theorizing that life is made of chemicals, but if you give the chemicals, why you cannot make life? When I was in South Africa... Where is that? Pretoria or something? There are many factories for chicken killing. Chicken incubator. So one of the students, worker there, I said, "Suppose this is a chicken factory. So take one egg and analyze the chemicals. There is some white substance, yellow substance. It is covered with some cell. You can do it, and put that in the incubator and get a chicken. Why don't you do that?" The rascal could not answer.
Prabhupāda: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that "I have leisure," but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?
Rāmeśvara: There must be still education so the people will... Say we are one day...
Prabhupāda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, not for anyone, śūdras. They are two only. Others will... What education required? Suppose if you produce... If you..., you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.
Rāmeśvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmīs still.
Prabhupāda: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasāda distribution and chanting. They'll immediately be popular. Everything will be... Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (CC Antya 20.12).
Jagadīśa: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be widespread.
Rāmeśvara: That's what I'm wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn't be. There would be...
Jagadīśa: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician?
Rāmeśvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they're so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions.
Prabhupāda: That's a fact.
Gurudāsa: You told me they wanted to be paid in gold by the Home Bill just to deplete the economy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Home Bill. Because I was student of economics. So Home Bill. Home Bill means all the Englishmen were engaged in India, either government, railway, industry, factory, and so on, so on, so on. Whatever... They have got some charges. So all the bills were sent to London, and they made a Home Bill. Their home is in England, so they won't take payment here. They'll take payment at home. And the government there, they'll present the whole bill to India and debit India's account in gold. That means, other words, all the payments which were to be made to the Englishmen in India, they were paid at home in gold.
Prabhupāda: Then they will come to their senses.
Rāmeśvara: Then there will be nothing left. Their jobs, their factories, it will all... So then they'll be able to easily understand, "Now let us start again. We'll live on the farm. Simpler life."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Rāmeśvara: But...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will be good lesson for them.
Rāmeśvara: So is this conflict part of the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām (BG 4.8). To... Conflict means to finish the sinful activities, finish, stop it.
Rāmeśvara: It seems that then this conflict will be a great opportunity for our movement.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: They were trained by the first-class brāhmaṇas, saintly persons. They abided by their order. There was committee, advisory committee. Even at the time of his death, he's asking advice from the saintly..., "What is my duty?" That is king. He's not doing anything whimsically. And the first-class man should be first-class. Then second-class man, executive, kṣatriyas, they will force: "You must do it!" And then the third class, they should produce and carry out the order of the second class, king. And fourth class, they cannot do anything. Let them serve everyone, that's all, śūdras. They have no intelligence. But everyone is important, cooperatively. This is society. You require also legs; you require also heads. Simply heads will not help you. Head will give instruction, "Leg, please walk in this way." That's all, legs will move. He carries me. "Hands, give me protection." Immediately, "Yes!" A bad somebody(?) "Come on." Yes. Coming. "Belly, you produce food, sufficient, so that the legs, hands and brain, everyone will be provided with sufficient..." This way. This is society. All third-class, fourth-class men, simply going to the factory, and they are making laws. This is... What is called? Chaos. Chaotic society, no brain.
Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish leaders. In the field there is food. They will not work for the food. (break)
Jayapatākā: ...get a big staff after publishing our monthly magazine for some time. And I'm thinking we can... If there's... Like that editor of the Basumati, if they join us and help, we can bring a daily paper, and then these can be some of our...
Prabhupāda: If somebody came to see me, some editor...?
Jayapatākā: Yes. He wanted to... (break) ...the train station to catch the trains.
Prabhupāda: Going to Calcutta?
Jayapatākā: Most likely Calcutta and then different factories and workers. That Hitagar and Chamnagar and all those places.
Devotee: Calcutta. (end)
Prabhupāda: In Russia also, simply eating meat.
Brahmānanda: Meat and vodka.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Brahmānanda: They have no vegetables available. I read in the newspapers here in India now that Poland, they are putting up a vodka factory. Punjab.
Prabhupāda: What is that vodka?
Brahmānanda: It's a liquor made from potato. So now they're making a factory in Punjab.
Prabhupāda: Punjab?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So government has allowed.
Brahmānanda: Oh, yes. So they will make vodka here for exporting to Poland because the Polish people like vodka very much. So now they will produce in India.
Prabhupāda: The Polish Embassy is there near our Calcutta for seeing this business going on.
Prabhupāda: When I had to go that Indian quarter in Johannesburg, at least ten miles by car through the darkness.
Brahmānanda: The Indian quarters are far off.
Prabhupāda: Still, they're prosperous. They have got car. They have got business. They have got factories. Although they are harassed in so many ways, still they are prosperous. They have got their shops and business house in Johannesburg, and they cannot remain there. They must go back. So that was a failure of Gandhi. Gandhi for twenty years agitated. General Smuts, he was the head at that time. And he was beaten. He was so much troubled. Once upon a time Gandhi was captured and beat so severely that he was going to die immediately. Some English South African friend, he saved him. So Gandhi's life from this side is a failure. He could not achieve any success there. Then he thought that "I shall drive these Englishmen from my country." He came here in 1917.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gandhi was born in...?
Prabhupāda: Gandhi is a Gujarati.
Prabhupāda: All beggars. (laughs)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, poor beggars, right. And then a skyscraper full of beggars, and then they realize, "How they purchased a skyscraper? These people are collecting a lot of money."
Prabhupāda: We want that they should have necessaries without any difficulty and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That they do not like. They want people to be industrialists, working very hard in the factory.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Hari-śauri: They're envious because they're struggling for their own existence, and they don't like to see us not struggle.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Envious. But if we develop this community project, farm, they cannot do anything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they appreciate this farm projects.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "Why shall I work? I am working for my own..., for the village."
Gargamuni: Panihati is very near to...
Prabhupāda: No, no, Panihati he can take, but why Calcutta?
Gargamuni: Because for maintenance sake, Panihati and Calcutta is the same place for collecting funds.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Gargamuni: It's a factory area...
Prabhupāda: No, no, and our Abhirāma is doing in Calcutta.
Gargamuni: Well, actually he doesn't stay in Calcutta, and the...
Rāmeśvara: We were informed that he does not want to remain as president.
Prabhupāda: So that will be decided in the president's meeting?
Rāmeśvara: Better make a note, Satsvarūpa.
Prabhupāda: Request him that introduce this Hindi Bhāgavatam to all government officers.
Gargamuni: One of our parties have just returned, and they have secured many new orders from factories, Raukala Steel Factory in Raukala.
Prabhupāda: In Hindi?
Gargamuni: No, Hindi they did not have. They did not have any sample copies. This was done by another party who were in U.P.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Girirāja: I spoke to Mr. Rajda on the telephone this morning. So he has already spoken to the Prime Minister about your meeting, and the Prime Minister gladly accepted.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Prabhupāda: That hog philosophy, which is forbidden. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān (SB 5.5.1). Why? Why you should work so hard? That I said, that Daily Messenger, in the pandal, hanging...
Girirāja: They say that by opening factories they are giving work to so many people. So they cannot also lead the same...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (reading letter) "The Chief Minister's Secretariat, Government of Maharastra, Saciwalya."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not a very long note. It's signed by the Undersecretary. It says, "Dear Sir, I am desired to acknowledge with thanks receipt of your letter dated the 3rd April, 1977. Yours faithfully, Undersecretary." You sent him a very personal letter. I think he should have... He may be a little bit depressed at this time due to having to leave office.
Prabhupāda: That was his dilemma. If he said, "No, we cannot cooperate or join this..." I asked, letter?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And he was condemned. Officially he cannot make statement.
Lokanātha: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on the land and cows. The necessities of human society are food grains..." Prabhupāda: About the land and cows, this is Bhagavad-gītā, mentioned, kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.44). Never recommends factory. Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). So there is no question of giving protection to the cows if it gives milk only. No. Go-rakṣya. There must be protection to the cow. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even the cows pass urine and stool, that is beneficial. And if it gives milk, then there is no question. Hm.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "In accordance with your desire I went to Karachi and spent two days there. I first visited the marble factory of Mr. Azis Pir Mohammed. This man belongs to the Ismaili sect of Islam, the followers of Aga Khan. His factory is very small, and he and his three brothers manage it. Their primary business is cutting alabaster into vases, tiles, plates, cups, etc., and they sell their products mainly to foreign countries. I made two visits to their factory and preached extensively to Azis, his brother, his friends and workers. They all liked Kṛṣṇa consciousness. They are intelligent enough to understand and in due time will be able to follow your instructions seriously. However, they need more association and a devotee to constantly engage them. I did not see fit to ask them for the use of their house as a center yet, but I told them that I would be opening a center in Karachi, and they were happy to hear this. They promised to help in whatever way they could as soon as our men appear on the scene."
Ram Jethmalani: Sir, I will take leave of you, and with your blessings, I hope we shall soon be...
Prabhupāda: No, we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness without any sectarian... That is our... Unity on spiritual platform. Try to understand.
Ram Jethmalani: I hope we can be of some use sometime to your...
Prabhupāda: Yes. That position... That is required, that you want to cooperate.
Prabhupāda: Idea, that idea is given there. Just like you cannot see the flavor, but still, you are smelling, some flavor is nice. In the air, it is rose flavor, it is passing. You cannot see what is that flavor and how it is being carried, but you can smell. Similarly, the soul is being carried by the mind, ego and intelligence. You cannot see it, but you have to understand by hearing from the authorities like Kṛṣṇa. Itas tu viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parām, jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho (BG 7.5). Beyond this material things, there is another prakṛti. That is the... That does not die. Na jāyate na mriyate. And that is being carried by mind, intelligence and ego. By our gross eyes, we see the body is burnt into ashes, finished. Soul and everything is finished. The atheist will say like that. Bhasmi bhūtasya dehasya tataḥ punar āgamano bhavet.(?) "If the body is already burnt into ashes, who is coming and who are going?" The atheists. Kṛṣṇa does not say. No. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). So will you accept the atheists or Kṛṣṇa? That is our process. The atheist will say "It is burnt into ashes. Where, where is soul?" Kṛṣṇa says, "No," na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). "He is not dead. He has gone to another body." Dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13). Those who are sober, they are not disturbed. So we have to become sober. These restless rascals, how they will become sober? Suppose a child is restless child, how can you convince him about philosophy? Sober man, cool-headed man, he can be convinced. So this is a childish civilization. This is not sober civilization. There is no full-brain man. All restless dogs and hogs. And they have taken it is first class, dogs and hogs. Actually, they are living dogs and hogs, and they are claiming civilized. There is no difference dogs and hogs life and the modern man. The dogs and hogs whole day work. Kaṣṭān kāmān arhate. In London, in New York, early in the morning they will to the work, put-put-put-put. They could not take rest even at night peacefully. The anxiety is "If I do not reach early in the factory, I will (indistinct). The whole day's salary will be..." He is anxious. Sadā samudvigna-dhiyām. Always full of anxieties. Asad grahāt. On account of this body. The same principle is being followed by the hogs.
Prabhupāda: Duty, profit, so on, so on. And all these big, big millionaires, they are exacting money from the poor like that, and when they have got money, they spend little for daridra-nārāyaṇa. "Oh, very big man." And our program? Why you making daridra? Daridra? Our policy is this, that "Why should you make him daridra?" First of all make him daridra, and then take credit—"daridra-nārāyaṇa"? Just see how cheating is going on. But we are projecting this path for them: let them remain in their home, produce their own food only and cloth and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is our policy. Our policy means Kṛṣṇa's policy. Let them have sufficiently to eat, and they'll be all satisfied. If the mind is Kṛṣṇa conscious, then they don't want anything, either liquor or meat or anything. No. This is the advantage. And this is not social... What is that? That first of all drag him from the innocent life of village and engage him in the factory in the hope of getting more money, and then he's habituated to liquor. When he cannot pay, they purchase this poison and die.
Prabhupāda: Still you can take advantage of it. What you are doing? Here is this nice statement. Here is the thought.
Yaśomatīnandana: Another, Home Minister, also is saying these same things, discourage the factories and industrialization...
Prabhupāda: This is ruination. Factory means ruination. Factory means destruction. And agriculture means construction. The father is going to the factory, and the children are starving-destruction. Go on reading.
Yaśomatīnandana: "The human being is the elder brother of all other living beings." (break)
Prabhupāda: Satkāra. Now, whatever you...
Yaśomatīnandana: Practical solution for all problems.
Prabhupāda: Don't try for China.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You had said that before a few times also. They are completely restricted in every respect. Whereas in other..., East European countries and in Russia, the professors may read various types of literature, in China they're not allowed to do that. And if they are ever caught doing that, they immediately are sentenced to prison and they lose everything. The difference in China as opposed to Russia is that in China every few years all the professors are made to be farmers. And also the workers in the factories and the farmers are the predominate controllers of the universities. They are not at all interested in culture or in higher education. Their whole purpose even for the universities is to train up loyal Chinese citizens. Everything is for that end. So no cultural interest would ever be tolerated on the part of the authorities there. And the people are so much controlled by these authorities that they would lose everything.
Prabhupāda: Sa eva go-kharaḥ (SB 10.84.13). (pause)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? You said before that you..., that it is said that you were poisoned?
Prabhupāda: No. These kind of symptoms are seen when a man is poisoned. He said like that, not that I am poisoned.
| Page Title: | Factories (Conversations) |
| Compiler: | Mayapur |
| Created: | 28 of Oct, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=0, SB=0, CC=0, OB=0, Lec=0, Con=193, Let=0 |
| No. of Quotes: | 193 |