Brain (Conversations 1968 - 1974)

Expressions researched:
"brain" |"brain's" |"brained" |"braingiving" |"brainless" |"brains" |"brainwork"

Notes from the compiler: VedaBase query: brain or brains or brained or braingiving or brainless or brain's or brainwork not "no brains" not "no brain" not "brainless"

1968 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Prabhupāda: The community is supposed to be there. The potter is there, the washerman is there, the grocer is there, the milkman is there, everyone is there. So we haven't got to form community.

Śivānanda: No. In the correct position then, the temple would be the center of the community.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Temple is open for everyone. Let them come and sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, hear Bhagavad-gītā. We don't say, "Oh, are you potter? No. You are not allowed." We don't say that. "Are you cobbler? Oh, you are not allowed." No. We don't say that. Everyone is welcome. Come on. And what is the business? Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Everyone can do it. And what is the next business? We read some nice philosophical portion from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Yes. You have got ears. (shouts:) But the rascals are not coming! That is their rascaldom. Because they will go to hell. We are offering the greatest facility, but they are so rascals they are not coming. This is a rascaldom civilization. What is difficulty there? You come, sit down, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, take nice prasādam, hear philosophy, see nice pictures, decorated Deity. What is the difficulty there? But their brain is full with rascaldom. They will go to cinema, they will go to hotel, they will go to some other thing, but they will not come to temple, or church, or anywhere where these things are being done. This is called Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means they are so condemned that they don't take facility of the highest benefit.

Room Conversation -- July 16, 1968, Montreal:

Mr. Khanvar: Many people don't know about temple. Many people are not aware of the temple.

Prabhupāda: Well, these are..., so many people came on that day. At least, they know. They have no interest. That is the thing. That this life is meant for perfection in self-realization or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their dull brain does not allow to understand this fact. Therefore I was explaining last night, su-medhasaḥ good brain substance. So people are becoming dull, and talking all nonsense. They are interested with so many nonsense things. Just like yesterday that gentleman came. You were present?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Oh, he was talking that on zero some great swami spoke four hours. And he was very proud that on zero one can speak throughout his whole life. Now I did not... (laughs) But if you can speak on some subject matter for four hours, how it is zero? Just see the contradiction. Gaurasundara, you were present when he was speaking? You heard? If I can speak something on a subject matter, is that subject matter zero? Zero means śūnya. Śūnya means nothing.

Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles:

Journalist: But they're demigods.

Prabhupāda: The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs. Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you have got controller here, some departmental director of this department, director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on automatically, without any control? You see?

Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But they should have common sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very good reasoning?

Journalist: I don't know. I must ponder that.

Prabhupāda: You should know it. How it can be. There must be a very big brain behind this. They are working.

Journalist: Now do you say that the moon is, so to speak...? What should I say? Headquarters, where these demigods live?

Prabhupāda: No, there are many planets on the same level. There are many planets. Moon is one of them.

Journalist: Have any of these demigod creatures visited the earth or...

Prabhupāda: Formerly they used to because at that time people were worth to see them. You see?

Journalist: When you say formerly, you mean thousands of years ago or...

Prabhupāda: No. At least five thousand years ago.

1969 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg -- May 13, 1969, Columbus, Ohio:

Prabhupāda: Kalki's nature, that is described in Bhāgavata. He will come just like a prince, royal dress with sword, and on horseback, simply killing, no preaching. All rascals killed. No more preaching. (laughing) That is the last. There will be no brain to understand what is God.

Allen Ginsberg: There will be no brain to understand God?

Prabhupāda: They will be so dull, so dull. It requires brain to understand. Just like in the Bhāgavata it is said that evaṁ prasanna-manaso (SB 1.2.20), "fully joyful," bhagavad-bhakti-yoga, "by practice of bhakti-yoga." Evaṁ prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataḥ, mukta-saṅgasya: "and freed from all material contamination." He can understand God. Do you think God is so cheap thing, anyone will understand? Because they do not understand, they present something nonsense: "God is like this. God is like that. God is like that." And when God Himself comes, that "Here I am, Kṛṣṇa," they don't accept it. They'll create their own God.

Discussion with BTG Staff -- December 24, 1969, Boston:

Kīrtanānanda: Yes. Some of us have difficulty understanding Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if I get time... My time is very limited. So even there is difficulty, let them read over and over and again. Then they will understand. Why should we change it? Let it be presented as Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī has given, and... Then don't give more than one or two pages at a time. Their brain will be puzzled. (laughter) Yes. When Guru Mahārāja was speaking, at least my brain was puzzled. (laughter) Even he would speak in Bengali, it was very difficult to understand. He was speaking from a very, very high platform. But I wanted to hear him. That's all. Even I did not understand it. That he appreciated, (laughs) that "This boy does not go away. He hears." Actually that was my position. In the beginning I could not understand what he was speaking, but I wanted to hear him. That's all. I was very much anxious to hear him. That he marked. And he was kindly pleased on me, that "He wants to hear. He does not go away." That was my policy, that "let me hear. Even I do not understand, let me hear." That's all. Yes. Actually I did not understand in the beginning what he was speaking. So Bhaktisiddhānta's writing is not very easy to understand. Yes. But we should try, read and read again, and simply that vibration will help us. That's all. It is transcendental vibration, not that everyone will understand. But if you simply give aural reception to the vibration, that will make him advanced, not exactly that anyone has to understand it. Yes. Just like a man is sleeping and somebody is calling him. In his sleeping condition he does not understand. By calling, calling, calling, he gets up because that vibration is there. Not that in his sleeping condition he is understanding what is this sound is coming. So similarly, we should give reception to the transcendental vibrations made by Kṛṣṇa and His bona fide representatives. That will make us awakened. Not that we understand everything.

1971 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: So Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Kṛṣṇa is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Kṛṣṇa is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Kṛṣṇa is not changing body. That is the difference.

Guest: Soul will not merge into that light, Kṛṣṇa's light?

Prabhupāda: What is that merging? You have got that brain, merging.

Guest: I told that... You have told...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body, you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog's body, you may change to a demigod's body. That is going on. According to one's karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual. So long you get material body, you have to change, one after another, one after another, one after another. Just like if you have a cheap thing, it goes wrong, you have to purchase another new thing. But if you purchase a real, nice thing it will go, continue for good. Similarly, so long you are getting this cheap body, material body, you have to change. And as soon as you get the most valuable body, spiritual body, there will be no more change. Why don't you understand like that? So that you have to get. That is very simple. Kṛṣṇa says, janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ. One who does not know what is Kṛṣṇa, he thinks that somebody is greater than Kṛṣṇa. But anyone who knows Kṛṣṇa as he is, immediately he gets that permanent body. Simply by knowing Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma me divyam yo jānāti tattvataḥ, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mam eti (BG 4.9). Is it clear? Yes. So you have to do that. You have simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. The whole problem is solved. (Prabhupāda is pounding on the table, stressing points.)

Room Conversation -- February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur:

Prabhupāda: Avatāra means avatāran. (Hindi) What is the meaning of descent? What is the meaning of descent? Coming down. Coming down. Yes.

Guest: In the sense of quality or in the sense of form.

Prabhupāda: The sense of form. Because your brain is congested with impersonalism, you cannot understand what is spiritual form. That is your defect.

Guest: That is the trouble.

Prabhupāda: Yes. (Hindi) All hodgepodge things should be...

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore... (Hindi) What is this intellect? It is ignorance. This is not intellect. It is ignorance. You are accepting something wrong. That is ignorance. Ignorance is jñānavān. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). That is knowledge. This is ignorance. He does not know Kṛṣṇa. And one who does not know Kṛṣṇa, he has no value of his knowledge. Bhāgavata says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ (SB 7.5.31). Knowledge, what is the target of knowledge? To go up to Viṣṇu, to understand. Tad viṣṇuṁ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti surayaḥ. Those who are actually intelligent, they are simply observing the Viṣṇu form. This is Vedic mantra. So unless you reach to that point, your knowledge has no value. It is ignorance. Nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yogamāyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). So long you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your knowledge is covered still.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Varnāśrama.

Prabhupāda: Varṇa, varṇāśrama. And in the Bhagavad-gītā—perhaps you have read Bhagavad-gītā—there is also the statement, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ (BG 4.13). It is... This system is created originally by Viṣṇu. So as everything is creation of the Supreme, they cannot be changed. That is a prevalent everywhere, that a... Sun. Sun is creation of the Supreme. So sunshine is here in America, in Russia, in India—everywhere. Similarly, this varṇāśrama system is prevalent everywhere in some form or other. Just like the brāhmaṇas. The brāhmaṇas means the most intelligent class of men, brain, brain of the society. Then the kṣatriyas, the administrator class. Then the vaiśyas, the productive class, and the śūdras, the worker class. These four classes of men are everywhere present in different names. And because it is creation by the original creator, so it is prevalent everywhere, varṇāśrama-dharma. (break) So have you seen this little, how we are translating this? You can see little. Original śloka, its transliteration, then its English equivalent, then translation, then purport, each and every verse is being done like that, whole Bhāgavatam Purāṇa.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Prof. Kotovsky:...is a bit late creation. If you would trace the old sūtras, texts, of Vedic literature, you would find much more simple and egalitarian society. And there is an opinion that this varṇāśrama system was introduced into Indian society on the late stage of Vedic era but not from the beginning, about... If you would analyze scientifically the old texts, you'll find that... (break)...human estimations. (laughs) As many brains, as many estimations...

Prabhupāda: (laughs) That's it.

Prof. Kotovsky: ...about the duration of this period because unfortunately the old classic India we have not so much information.

Prabhupāda: But so far... So far we are concerned, this Bhagavad-gītā... It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). Now, this Bhagavad-gītā was spoken five thousand years ago, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that "This system of Bhagavad-gītā was first spoken by Me to the sun-god." So if you take estimation of that period, it comes forty millions of years. So whether the European scholars can trace out the history of at least for five thousand years together, not to speak of forty millions?

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So we have got evidences that his varṇāśrama system is current at least for the five thousand years, varṇāśrama system. And this varṇāśrama system is mentioned in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa also. Varnāśramācaravata puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān

(CC Madhya 8.58). Varnāśrama acaravata. So that is stated in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa. And so varṇāśrama-dharma is not a, within any historical period calculated in the modern age. It is natural. And in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam the comparison is given, just like in your body, in my body, there are four divisions, the face, facial, or the brain division, and the arms division, the belly division, and the leg division, similarly, by nature's way these four divisions are existing in the social body. You may take history wherever you begin, but this is existing. A class of men, they are considered to be brain. A class of men, they are considered to be the arms, administrators. And a class of men, they are called productive class. So there is no need of tracing the history. It is naturally existing from the day of creation.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: And the śūdras are workers, menial workers. But here you have no vaiśyas from this point of view because you have administrative staff... In fact, there is administrative staff. You can call them kṣatriyas. And then śūdras, that's workers themselves. But not this intermediate class.

Prabhupāda: That is stated, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ: "In this age practically all men will be śūdras." That is... That is predicted. But if there are simply śūdras, then the social order will be destroyed. You... Just like in spite of your state of śūdras, a brāhmaṇa is found here. And that is necessity. So if you do not divide the social order in such a way, then there will be chaos. that is the scientific estimation of the Vedas. You may... You may belong for the time being to the śūdra class, but to maintain the social order you have to train some of the śūdras to become brāhmaṇa, some of the śūdras to become kṣatriyas. You cannot depend on the śūdras. Then there will be chaos. Neither you can depend only on brāhmaṇa. Just like to fulfill the necessities of your body there must be a portion called the brain, there must be a portion called the arms, there must be a portion called the stomach, or the belly, and there must be a portion which is called the leg. The leg is also required, the brain is also required, the arm is also required—for cooperation, to fulfill the mission of the whole body. So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a kṣatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bāhūru-padebhyaḥ. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state—doesn't matter—unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: ...conditionally(?) to group them in four classes because...

Prabhupāda: The, the confusion, confusion has come into existence because in India in later days the son of a brāhmaṇa, without having the brahminical qualification, claimed to be brāhmaṇa, and others, out of superstition or traditional way, they were accepted as brāhmaṇa. Therefore the Indian social order has disrupted. But our, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are picking up from everywhere brāhmaṇas, everywhere, because the world needs the brain of a brāhmaṇa. Just like here, Mahārāja Parīkṣit, although he was a monarch, he had a body of learned sages and brāhmaṇas to consult, advisory body. It is not that the monarchs were independent. In the history it is found that some of the monarchs were not in order. They were dethroned by the brahminical advisory committee. Although the brāhmaṇas, they did not take part in politics, but they would give advice to the monarch how to, I mean to say, execute the royal function. Just like not, not very old, very, say, about... What is the age of, I mean to say, Asoka? Say about thousands of years ago.

Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky -- June 22, 1971, Moscow:

Prof. Kotovsky: Hm hm. Canakya Purī, yes, I know.

Prabhupāda: So this Canakya Paṇḍita was a great politician and brāhmaṇa. And as brāhmaṇa, he was vastly learned. He has got some moral instruction. They're very valuable, still going on. In India school children are taught. So this Canakya Paṇḍita, although he was prime minister, he maintained his brahminical spirit. He was not accepting any salary, yes, because for brāhmaṇas to accept salary, it is understood that he becomes a dog. That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavata. He can advise, but he cannot accept. So he was living in a cottage, but he was prime minister. So this brahminical culture, the brahminical brain, is the standard of Vedic civilization. Just like Manu-smṛti. Manu-smṛti... You do not know. You cannot trace out the history, when Manu-smṛti was written. But Manu-smṛti is considered so perfect that it is the Hindu law. The Hindus are governed by Manu-smṛti. There was no need of passing daily a new law by the legislative assembly to adjust this social order. You see? The law given by Manu was so perfect that it can be applicable for all the time. This is perfect. Tri-kāla-jñāḥ. The word is there, tri-kāla-jñāḥ, past, present, future.

Room Conversation -- July 20, 1971, New York:

Pratyatoṣa: They're so fast.

Devotee (4): They are fantastic.

Pratyatoṣa: They turn out a page in a couple of seconds.

Devotee (4): Electric brain.

Pratyatoṣa: Yeah.

Devotee (4): Big electric.

Pratyatoṣa: And they're always perfect. There's no variation in the characters or anything like this.

Prabhupāda: But as soon as an electronic is a little sick, the whole thing stops.

Devotee (4): No, they're reliable machines. These are just...

Prabhupāda: That's all right.

Devotee (4): Yeah, that possibility is there.

Prabhupāda: The brain goes bad, then it is very difficult to bring it into...

Pratyatoṣa: Well, they have maintenance men on the spot all the time. It's very reliable.

Prabhupāda: But I moving from one place to another.

Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London:

Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone there.

Prabhupāda: Whenever the Kṛṣṇa is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter)

Haṁsadūta: But in the Brahma-saṁhitā it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness.

Prabhupāda: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there.

Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya.

Śyāmasundara: But this body of a table, it's not an individual personality is it? There's not one jīva soul in charge of this table.

Revatīnandana: In other words the table itself is not a person, but within there are many persons.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- August 17, 1971, London:

Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then...

Prabhupāda: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantāya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.

Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand.

Revatīnandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others.

Prabhupāda: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better.

Room Conversation -- August 25, 1971, London:

Śyāmasundara: Is he still there?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Rādhā-Dāmodara is kind. And where this rascal will go? (laughter) After all, somehow or other, he is giving some service to Rādhā-Dāmodara, managing. Api cet sudarācāraḥ. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. (break) ...should think that we have got to say so many things to the people. Huh? About this. So take these ingredients, assimilate them in the brain and distribute.

Woman devotee: People like it when we speak so strongly to them.

Prabhupāda: They like. And you have got so many ingredients. So now you realize how many things you have to speak to the world, economic development, everything. We are not simply so-called religious people. We know everything in right way. Everything, what is to be... That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all round, all included.

Revatīnandana: The people who listen, they become very impressed. At many programs, the students, after I finish speaking and I answer some questions, they realize that we know something very completely. They become very interested. They come around and bring more questions. Very nice.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And you will get all ideas from our books. That is Indian śaṅkha? That in your hand, bangle, white bangle.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is a question of consciousness, development of consciousness.

Dr. Weir: That's where your line is so very good in saying that the real evolution of man's mind has been his ability to produce more and more the functions of whatever the mind may be. But the mind is just as indivisible as God. We know what the brain is, but we don't know what the mind is. Yet more and more of it under conscious control instead of being irrationally eruptive(?).

Prabhupāda: But there is the summum bonum of that realization. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: bahūnāṁ janmanām ante, jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After many, many births of this mental evolutionary process, when actually he becomes wise he becomes God conscious and surrenders to God. That is real evolution(?). That evolution will go on. But when it comes to the summit, that is God realization. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). God is cause of all causes. That is final realization. Unless one comes to that point he has not come to the perfection of evolutionary process of the mind and intelligence.

Room Conversation with Dr. Weir of the Mensa Society -- September 5, 1971, London:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. But if it is accepted by the great ācāryas that He's God then there is no doubt. If Kṛṣṇa is accepted God, by all the ācāryas, bona fide ācāryas, authorities.

Śyāmasundara: Well, I think what Prabhupāda is saying is that a spiritual master is requisite in order to transmit knowledge even though it may be revealed in the scriptures to the student, according to the time and place. Just like someone may be able to read in a book about how to perform a brain operation, but unless there's a master there to transmit that knowledge into reality, it's useless. It can't be performed.

Dr. Weir: That merely means, you might say, if you're going to be very thorough and precise, that the, it could be explained in greater detail, but it's easier to do it with a master. But you can go to a foreign language by reading a book, although it's much easier if you're...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is the medicine, diabetic. So I have accepted this medicine through a bona fide doctor. Although it is meant for diabetes, I have not accepted this medicine, neither it is advised that this medicine should be accepted by a bona fide physician. So I cannot see properly whether it is good for me. But when the physician, qualified physician, says, "Yes, it is bona fide. You can use it in this way." That is right.

Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:

Dr. Singh: Yes, but they can also work.

Prabhupāda: Everyone is working.

Dr. Singh: They can be very good worker.

Prabhupāda: When your brain... Brain is the intelligent part of this body. So unless the brain works, nobody can work.

Dr. Singh: Everybody has a brain, all classes.

Prabhupāda: Therefore, the intelligent class means the brain of the society. They must work. Otherwise, how others will work? Working is compulsory for everyone.

Dr. Singh: They can fight also.

Prabhupāda: But just like the brain says that "Here is an enemy," so hand immediately strikes. Brain gives direction that "Here is an enemy coming," and he strikes with his hand. This is kṣatriya. And the belly supplies food, vaiśya. And the legs, śūdra, carries. So there must be systematic division of the work. Everyone should work. The brain will work, the hand will work, the belly will work, the leg will work, but the direction should be from the brain. Therefore, first of all duty is there must be an intelligent class of men directing. Then the other direction will follow. If the duty of the intelligent class of men is taken by the foolish rascals, then how this work will go on? That is first reformation, that we should pick up the intelligent class of men of the world and they will direct. And next the administrator class. And next the productive class. So intelligent class means one who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is intelligent, actual. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā it is said, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). Is it not? So jñānavān means the first-class intelligent class. So after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, what is the symptom? Māṁ prapadyate, he immediately surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā su-durlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is the highest perfection of intelligence, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Then he will give direction to the administration. The basic principle is that without being Kṛṣṇa conscious, you cannot work properly. (Sanskrit) Because we neglected Kṛṣṇa, therefore brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas, they have fallen down. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, everyone.

1972 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation Including Discussion on SB 4.13.48 to SB 4.14.11 -- January 18, 1972, Jaipur:

Prabhupāda: So practically all over the world a class of men, a priestly class of men, they have made it a means of earning livelihood, temple achar(?), taking money from people and enjoying, and then become drunkard. In your country, five thousand drunkard priests were consolidated in a hospital for treatment. They're getting money. So there is possibility, we are opening temples, public is contributing. But if we become easy-goer, "Now money is coming, let us eat sumptuously and eat, eat and sleep, and if possible drink also." But, of course, we are restricting. But naturally when one man becomes idle, idle brain is the devil's workshop. So if he can get... Just like rich man's son, they become. Everyone has got experience in every country. When he has no difficulty to get money, then what he will do? He will simply drink or invent some means of intoxication, naked dance. So they became very much perturbed. Venasyāvekṣya durvṛttasya viceṣṭitam, vimṛśya loka-vyasanaṁ kṛpaya ucuḥ sma... Kṛpāya, they were very much compassionate. They cannot see. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. Therefore, Vaiṣṇava is always unhappy by seeing other's unhappiness. They know how they are going to hell. Just like any gentleman will be aggrieved when they pass on the Bowery Street, seeing their fallen condition. So if any gentleman can become unhappy by seeing such condition of people, what to speak of saintly persons who are supposed to be responsible for spiritual up...

Room Conversation with John Griesser (later initiated as Yadubara Dasa) -- March 10, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Dog-eaters.

Yadubara: Sometimes monkeys also.

Prabhupāda: Monkey?

Yadubara: Um hm. Monkey brain. It's very rare, but it's done.

Prabhupāda: Chinese?

Yadubara: Chinese.

Prabhupāda: Chinese, they eat everything. (laughter) They eat rats also. Rats, snakes. They are caṇḍālas.

Yadubara: They say Chinese are very practical and that they will make use of anything.

Prabhupāda: They eat man also. Yes. There was a case in Calcutta, they were eating man. They will call a hawker, "Come in, I shall purchase." And as soon as he enters, he never comes back. There were two hawkers. So one entered the house and other was waiting. But when he saw that he is not coming, he went to the police, that "My friend, he went but he is not coming." The police inquired and made a search, whole house, there were so many human bones, they're eating. Man-eater. Man-eater, in Africa there are many.

Room Conversation -- March 12, 1972, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: Because according to Darwin's theory, your forefather was monkey. So their theory is that long before there were monkeys only. How such high philosophical thoughts could come?

Dr. Kapoor: It is true that in England there were only monkeys there. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: On this theory, all their philosophy is going on. So if they give credit that Indians were so high scholars and philosophers, then the whole theory is spoiled. Because brain is developing, and the background of brain was monkey. So how such philosophical highly moral scholarly work can be done? And this is going on. If Bhāgavata is accepted as we accept that five thousand years ago it was written, then their whole civilization becomes topsy-turvy.

Dr. Kapoor: About the Bhāgavata also he says that there is the mention of Buddha in Bhāgavata and many descendants of Buddha who lived...

Prabhupāda: The Buddhists, they don't accept that verse. Kīkaṭeṣu bhaviṣyati, buddho nāmnāñjana-sutaḥ. They do not accept. About Buddha, in Hindu literature, Vedic literature, there is mention, bhaviśyati, feature(?). That is insult to them. Therefore, they do not accept this verse. Neither we say Buddha is incarnation of God. Keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra. They do not accept this. They think it is insult.

Conversation with Author -- April 1, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: But it means to them.

Author: Yes. No. I'm not saying that it's meaningless. I'm saying that it appears to be meaningless in the same way that one should wonder why he has his head shaven and why he wears those clothes. If one doesn't understand, these things are...

Prabhupāda: At least, they can take by shaving head means it cleans, cleanses. The head is not overburdened with unnecessary... (laughter) We want clear brain, and that is the system, Vedic system. All learned scholars, they cleanse head. Cleanse head. Yes. And at least we get relief. A little hair growing is also burdensome. We cleanse. So it is personal convenience. So that is not the point of preaching.

Author: No. But, sir, I see... I don't... I think it would be very difficult to explain the meaning of having a bald head, and by saying somebody's got a bald head, the reason for this is, there seems to be some cleanliness and so on, and to explain why people wear clothes like this. It's impossible surely to explain the reasons for these things without describing them in the first place.

Prabhupāda: Explain... Any group of men, they have got a particular type of dress, the military dress, the police dress. So people can understand that "Here is a police." Similarly, by this dress they will chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" immediately. That is our experience. As soon as they will see these people, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," and if they will criticize our, anything, we want that people see us and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That we want. Simply by seeing us they will remember Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is great advancement. Indirectly that is our propaganda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Prabhupāda: So if this energy, electric energy, can work so wonderful, how much wonderful energies are there in Kṛṣṇa that He is working and it is coming out, automatically. You say..., cannot explain, you will say it is nature. No. The same working is there. Just like if you paint one flower, you have to take the brush, color, and nicely... You cannot do as nice. So Kṛṣṇa has also to do the same thing, but the energy is so fine and quick, svābhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Kṛṣṇa says and this will go on. Just like if you want to create something, a house, you have to apply, your engineer, your contractor, the ingredients. But Kṛṣṇa also will do the same thing. But His energies are so fine and expert, He desires, "Let there be a skyscraper," immediately there is. But the process is there. Don't think it has come automatically. The same thing. If you want to speak to a friend a thousand miles away, you have to go there and find him, or he has to come. The process is there. By electricity, immediately he comes. Is it not be possible? Process is there that he has to come or you have to go. But by electricity, it is shortened. Similarly, the working capacity is going there, but it is so shortened and perfect, you see, "Oh, it has come automatically by nature." (indistinct) The process is so nice and short. That is real explanation. Process is there. You cannot say that... It appears like miracle because your brain cannot accommodate how quickly all these things come. You have got poor brain, you cannot accommodate. You are thinking, "If I have to..., I have to paint this, simply painting I have to take so much time."

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Śyāmasundara: It's so complex to us.

Prabhupāda: So one who does not know, it is complex. One who is in knowledge, for him it is not complex. Therefore, Bhāgavata says anvayād vitarekabhyam(?). Anvayād itarataś ca artheṣu abhijñaḥ. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is completely well versed. Kṛṣṇa just like says, "Yes, I spoke this philosophy millions of years. I remember; you have forgot." There we have to study, how Kṛṣṇa's brain is. Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Yes, I spoke." When Arjuna defied, "How can I believe that You spoke millions of years ago this philosophy to sun-god?" "Yes, that's a fact. You also were there. But I remember, you don't remember." The child, just like father says, "My dear child, when you were two years old you fell down and there was a fracture in your brain." "Yes?" He cannot remember. The father can say, "Yes, it happened. You have forgotten. I remember." This is practical. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa can remember everything, vedāhaṁ samatītāni (BG 7.26). You may not remember. You have no such brain, you are teeny. But why should you defy Kṛṣṇa? Why should you deny the facility for Kṛṣṇa? That means you are thinking, "Kṛṣṇa, He is like me." Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā. Because you are rascal, you are thinking Kṛṣṇa is like another rascal like you. That is poor fund of knowledge. Paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto (BG 9.11). "Because they do not know, rascal, what I am, what I can do," avajānanti, "they think, 'Kṛṣṇa is like me.' "

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Śyāmasundara: She understood it also.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. You have no right. Suppose I have written one book. So I have got some intention. So why should you interpret my intention with your intention? What right you have got? You have no right. If you want to speak something of yours, then you write another book. Why you are taking advantage of my book and misleading others? I want to speak to the public something, I have expressed my opinion in that way. But because it is popular, you are taking advantage of my book and expressing your views. How much cheating, how much cheater you are! Therefore he is suffering, Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has lost his brain. We went to see him, Dr. Radhakrishnan, when I was in Madras. You went?

Śyāmasundara: Yes, like a vegetable, with no comprehension.

Prabhupāda: Lost.

Śyāmasundara: At last he's become void.

Devotee (1): Yes. He surrendered to the void.

Prabhupāda: Simply sitting down like this. He cannot ask whether he is hungry or not. His daughter is always attending, giving him some food, then he is eating. Otherwise, he does not say. Lost everything. He has mentioned Bhagavad-gītā as a mental speculation, in his Indian Religion. So he is such a great offender, he must suffer. But it is good for him. Because he is a gentleman, therefore his offenses are being compensated in this life.

Room Conversation -- April 2, 1972, Sydney:

Śyāmasundara: As soon as there is person, there is no doubt, clear.

Prabhupāda: But we have tried to explain how He is person. Just like we try to explain how God is working. So one should have brain to study things. One must have clear idea how God is person, how He is working, how this cosmic manifestation is manifested by God's energy. Kṛṣṇa says, mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā (BG 9.4). "In My impersonal feature, everything is manifested there." Tatam idaṁ sarvam. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (ISO 1). So one has to apply his brain—that is intelligence—how it has become person. That is not false, that is fact. You cannot understand; your brain is teeny. That is different thing. Now you make your brain competent to understand this philosophy. (break) ...vijñātaṁ bhavanti. So take this philosophy nicely, understand this philosophy, and preach. You will be victorious everywhere, because we can challenge anyone. If you know the trick, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you can challenge. Nārāyaṇa-parāḥ sarve na kutaścana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28). One who is nārāyaṇa-parāḥ, he is never afraid of anything.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Martin: I can accept the fact that Kṛṣṇa, being God, created everything which science studies now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, right. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our, my scientific research is going on under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Kṛṣṇa. The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Kṛṣṇa. The direction you are receiving from Kṛṣṇa. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Kṛṣṇa's production. Kṛṣṇa is indirect cause and you are direct cause. The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of...

Devotee: Einstein.

Prabhupāda: Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. Is it not?

Martin: It's true.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Prabhupāda: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men(?). If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind, the professor has died. We create another person like." That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy or xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you had the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their, the shape is made after the bird. The original shape bird is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that. That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān. He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Devotee: A big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane.

Prabhupāda: You cannot create male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Millions. And then from millions, another millions, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. (Sanskrit) These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic television button, you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening, you see. So if it is materially possible, it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param. Therefore He is called parampuruṣa, parameśvara. Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Kṛṣṇa. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist; your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which is no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than this—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best friend. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Kṛṣṇa; therefore He is God.

Room Conversation -- May 4, 1972, Mexico:

Martin: But how can I know with my inferior brain...

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Martin: ...who has the best brain?

Prabhupāda: That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist friend. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty?

Martin: But... How can I know?

Prabhupāda: You can know directly that "He is doing better than me." What is the difficulty? I can see... Just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us." Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me." Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. And the Vedas also advises that "Go to a better man," śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham (MU 1.2.12), "one who heard better and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma, as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Kṛṣṇa," brahma-niṣṭham. These are the qualifications of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things are to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master.

Conversation with the GBC -- May 25, 1972, Los Angeles:

Śyāmasundara: He can oversee some foreign...

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has this book department. Book department and... They may move according to convenience, Bali-mardana and Karandhara. He has got also very responsibility, with this department, that department. He has to purchase small houses. So big brain (indistinct). So similarly, you also think on the books. Everyone take big responsibility. Then we have to serve this mission. The people are foolish, they have forgotten God. We are delivering them. Best service. And without God, it is all useless, zero, all this civilization. Zero. Whatever they are making advancement, it is all zero. And nonsense. But actually it is. Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man. The human society has come down to such a degraded position. It is astonishing. When I heard from Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja there is a big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if there somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out). Homosex is there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct) People are going down and this is the subject matter for priestly order? It may be subject matter for the legislator, priestly order, they are discussing for one week. Just imagine. Phalena paricīyate, one has to study by the result. Not that superficially you show that "We are very much advanced." Phalena, what is the result? Phalena paricīyate, your, that is in English word also, end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) "We are going to support homosex." Getting married. There are many cases the priestly order has actually got married.

Conversation Excerpt -- June 21, 1972, Los Angeles:

Devotee: He had 10,000 ah, subjects. (laughter)

Prabhupāda: All the ācāryas, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Viṣṇu Svāmī, Lord Caitanya, all of them become nullified and this rascal comes forward to defy all the ācāryas and push some new theory. Just see. This is going on. (Sanskrit) In the Varāha Purāṇa it is stated that some of the rākṣasas, they will take advantage of Kali-yuga and take birth in brāhmaṇa families, so he is one of them, this rākṣasa. And now he is suffering for that. Greatest calamity, you see? And according to Vedic injunction, the king if he levies tax from the subjects who are sinful, then he has to partake of the sinful action and he'll have to suffer. So, this rascal became the president of India, it is the position of king and on the (indistinct) of him he supported the slaughterhouses and levied taxes and he took high salary, enjoyed it. Now he is suffering the effect, sinful effect. Now in his living condition he has lost his brain. He, practically dead but living condition, it is very precarious condition. One is living actually but his brain is not acting, worse than a madman. So, this is the result of the rākṣasa statement. Yes, go on. (end)

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Devotee (1) (woman): Prabhupāda, is Lord Caitanya always carrying on saṅkīrtana in the spiritual world?

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is the father of the saṅkīrtana movement. Saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. This is the statement in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. This Lord, incarnation of Kṛṣṇa, is worshiped by saṅkīrtana yajña, and those who are intelligent, sumedhasaḥ, sharp brain, they worship this Lord by saṅkīrtana. This is the statement in the Bhāgavata. And, therefore, we worship Him with saṅkīrtana. This picture, He is being worshiped by saṅkīrtana. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti (SB 11.5.32). And they are all big men Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, Śrīvāsa, and others, followers. That is the proof. Kṛṣṇa-varṇaṁ tviṣākṛṣṇam, He is fair complexioned, but He is always chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa-varṇam iti, He is describing the science of Kṛṣṇa. These are the statement, and He is doing exactly the same thing. His accepting sannyāsa order is also mentioned in the śāstra. So everything we have to accept through three channels: sādhu, śāstra, guru. Saintly person, they you should accept; guru you should accept; and it must be mentioned in the śāstra. Guru cannot manufacture something. He must quote from the śāstra and then tell to his disciple. So disciple, as soon as he receives a message from guru corroborated by the śāstra, then he should take it as fact. This is the way. Why there should be any more doubt? What is your argument?

Room Conversation -- June 29, 1972, San Diego:

Guest (2): Does this apply to the brāhmaṇas?

Prabhupāda: You should fight... No, brāhmaṇas will not fight. the kṣatriyas will fight. The brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, they are part and parcel of the same unit. Just like hand. Hand is the part of your body. When there is attack, you first of all spread your hand. So this is kṣatriya's business. When somebody is coming to attack you, you don't put your legs, you put your hands. And the hand is raised by the order of the brain. And the hand and the brain is maintained by the belly. Why don't you study your own body? As in your own body there is brahminical department, there is kṣatriya department, vaiśya department and śūdra department... (laughter) But nobody is less important.

Guest (2): How do you define a brāhmaṇa?

Prabhupāda: The brain.

Guest (2): That is for a man, but...

Prabhupāda: That is for everything. The brain of the society should be brāhmaṇa.

Guest (2): By brain what do you mean?

Prabhupāda: What do you mean, that you learn. You come to our school. Then you learn. You cannot learn everything in one minute.

Morning Walk -- June 30, 1972, San Diego:

Prabhupāda: ...the brain of Einstein.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Brain of who?

Devotee (1): Einstein?

Prabhupāda: Einstein.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well, the way they're doing it is through the genetic, yes.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they are trying...

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...to make a xerox copy. So why not the original?

Devotee (1): What is that?

Prabhupāda: Explain to him.

Ātreya Ṛṣi: Why not the original?

Prabhupāda: Yes. The scientists, they are trying to make a xerox copy of Professor Einstein. So why not the original? Hm? What is their answer?

Ātreya Ṛṣi: They cannot keep the original alive.

Prabhupāda: No, that's all right, but let them make one original.

Room Conversation and Interview with Ian Polsen -- July 31, 1972, London:

Indian: Prabhupāda, I may be wrong here, but Lord Kṛṣṇa has given man brain, mind...

Prabhupāda: But misuse it.

Indian: No, if we use it properly.

Prabhupāda: But he does not know. That is... Therefore we call these rascal. Why we are calling these scientists, philosophers, politician rascal? Because they have got brain but they're misusing. Therefore they have been called duṣkṛtinaḥ. You have got brain, you can utilize it for smuggling and you can utilize it also how to understand Kṛṣṇa. The same brain.

Indian: But the development of my economy...

Prabhupāda: Development... If you become miscreants by utilizing your better brain, then what is the use? You are going to hell. This brain has no meaning. Misuser brain. Brain means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is brain.

Ian Polsen: Yes.

Indian: Perform his duty.

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is his duty. He talks of so many big, big things, duty. But if I ask, "What is your duty?" he cannot explain. So these things will not help. Simply...

Indian: Every man in this world, every being in this world has got a duty, performance, object...

Prabhupāda: But first of all say what is your duty.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That means there is no life. If you want to keep it frozen, that means after this body there is no life.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, it doesn't, because they want to study. For example, the brain of the advanced scientist, they want to study how his brain is different from ordinary people. So they can do some studies, research, on different bodies, parts of the bodies, just to differentiate why this body is different from the so many bodies.

Prabhupāda: There is differentiation. That's a fact. Differentiation, that is visible because (indistinct) more nicely than me, you must have more brain. But the brain is not acting independently. That they do not know. They take brain, they are going to study—that is another foolishness, another rascaldom. Still they are passing on as scientists. Just like ordinary machine and a complicated machine. The machine has to be worked by somebody. Not that because it is highly developed valuable machine it works automatically. This simple thing these rascals they do not understand. You may have got a very big nice machine, I may not have. But either good machine or bad machine, it must be worked by you or by me. Where is that me and you? And they are trying to understand the machine itself only. Such rascaldom.

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: They are working hard because they are hogs and dogs. There is no need of working hard. Nature's arrangement is so perfect that if you live natural life, there is no need of hard work. This tree is standing in one place; it is not at all working. How it is standing and living? It is also living entity. The birds and beasts, they have no scientific laboratory. How they are living happily? So your advanced brain means you are spoiling, you do not know how to utilize the brain. The brain wants to be utilized for searching out Kṛṣṇa, but instead of Kṛṣṇa, you are searching out ashes, that's all. Brain is being misused.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So this search for these symptoms are based only on the bodily comforts or bodily aspects.

Prabhupāda: But where you are getting the bodily comforts? Supposing you are (indistinct). The (indistinct) searches after bodily comfort, but still they are not getting bodily comfort. Where is the bodily comfort? There is disease, there is old age. Where is bodily comfort? You cannot stop it. It is very good that you are searching after bodily comfort, but there are so many discomforts of the body and the mind. You cannot stop it, then where is your actually benefit of searching out bodily comfort? You could not do it. Where is bodily comfort?

Morning Walk Conversation -- September 28, 1972, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So due to a lack of morals, they cannot see the real side.

Prabhupāda: Yes. No, they are seeing only the caves. Just like they are going to the moon. They are going to the desert of the moon and they are concluding the moon is a desert. That's all. The other side is prohibited.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So they cannot go.

Prabhupāda: They cannot go because according to Vedic description, moon is a planet for demigods. So they have got better brain. So they saw that "These rascals are coming here. All right, let them go to desert side." They have got their machine also. If they have got better brain, they can divert you. Why not think in that way? Their theory is that all other planets there is no life. Only this planet is favored by God, there is life. We say even in the sun planet there is life. (break) (indistinct) Here is your transport(?). We are trying to send back to home, back to Godhead. This is real transport.

Jayatīrtha: If you're going to travel, you should go to a worthwhile place. There's no reason to waste time.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct) the outer space, but they do not know where to go.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: These scientists, they are trying to travel in the outer space, but they do not know where to go.

Morning Walks -- October 1-3, 1972, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: That requires your knowledge.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he agreed the existence of supreme brain. We were talking about the talk between Einstein, Heisenberg, and some of the famous so-called physicists in nuclear field. So there was a conversation between Einstein and this Heisenberg, and Paul Durad(?), and (?), these are mostly (?) scientists, they are mostly Nobel Laureates. They were discussing, and without Einstein, these people they were talking, "Why Einstein is all the time talking about God?" Then this Heisenberg, he was not like Einstein. Einstein himself, he believed that there is a brain behind, supreme brain of God. And some of them, specifically this one, young Durad(?), he is also a scientist, he was very young, he was only twenty-five years old. So he said, "Einstein is all the time talking about God." This Durad(?) is completely opposite to this Einstein. So they were discussing about why Einstein is thinking about God all the time. And so... But ultimately they said, most of them agreed that there is a supreme being who is making all these physical laws, natural laws. It's already in the universe, but they are trying to discover it. So most of them agree except this Durad(?). So in the same line, (?) told me that yes, we agree that all the physical laws is already there. If somebody doesn't make it, then how can it exist? So he said he is thinking also in that line that there is someone, some brain, some supreme brain who is making all these physical laws. Otherwise there cannot be physical laws if there is not someone. He was saying that he started thinking in that line too.

Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) He makes everything, but He is not attached.

1973 Conversations and Morning Walks

Room Conversation -- February 25, 1973, Jakarta:

Prabhupāda: Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has explained this verse... When Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ, he comments, "It is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā, "Always think of Me." And he, out of his so-called nonsense scholarship, he says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." (Hindi)

Guest (1) Indian man: He's impersonalist. I read that Bhagavad-gītā in school.

Prabhupāda: He's a nonsense. He's a nonsense. Now he's suffering. I saw him last year in Madras. He has lost his brain. He's suffering now. You cannot ask him whether he's hungry or whether he wants some... Only his daughter is attending and here he cannot understand who is standing before him. He cannot speak. Like that. (Hindi) He has committed so much offenses under the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi for some minutes) ...very meritorious. I think you cannot understand Hindi.

Devotee: He speaks English.

Prabhupāda: Ah. So you can understand English then. So (Sanskrit). Duṣkṛtinaḥ means... kṛtiḥ means meritorious, very meritorious. But duṣkṛtiḥ. Whatever merit he has got... Nowadays at the present moment the civilization is so mad that everyone as human being... Any human being he has got some merit because he is not cat and dog. He's a man. As a man he has got brain, better than the cats and dogs. That's a fact. And actually they're doing so many things. Just like this picture. It is a very meritorious workmanship. So everyone can do some meritorious workmanship. But when that workmanship is diverted to, for the use of sinful activities... Just like one man is very meritorious, he's planning to form a party how to plunder. This requires merit. Without merit you cannot form a party. But the merit is being used for plundering, for harassing, for so many other sinful activities. So that is called duṣkṛtinaḥ. Merit is there but the merit is being misused for sinful activities. Therefore duṣkṛtiḥ. Just like modern scientist. It is meritorious that they have discovered the atomic bomb. The merit is used for killing. If you just use your merit so that man may live; that they're dying. Everyone is dying.

Room Conversations with Sannyasis -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: That is already divided. Calcutta, Bombay, Māyāpur, Vṛndāvana.

Pañcadraviḍa: So the men in charge they could say which men they wanted to keep and the rest they could send somewhere else. That way you would have men who were willing to work on the project, and if they were not willing to work, they could also be sent somewhere else.

Prabhupāda: So, make something like that, because I cannot tax my brain with the administration.

Devotee: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: Well, Tamāla Kṛṣṇa will be in Hyderabad and we can ask him to do it.

Prabhupāda: Weak, weak I am. Physically I am weak and besides that, if I have to see to the administration then I cannot think of writing books and how to present our philosophy to be understandable by the people. Therefore the administration is divided. Now you do, little intelligently. We have got still respect. Keep our standard. The people will like us. People wants to give us help, just like this big sannyāsī, one of the biggest sannyāsīs, Gangesvarananda(?), he is attracted. He is a man of immense resource, men and money he has. Immense resource.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: On the other hand the second law says that the, the entropy, that means the randomness of the all natural, spontaneously occurring natural processes, always increase. The randomness...

Prabhupāda: But... Thing is that they are studying the laws very nicely. That's good. But they should appreciate that who has made this law? That is their defect. They are studying how the laws of nature is working. That's nice. But they should appreciate at the same time: Who made such subtle laws that they are working so nicely? That is our philosophy. We do not only study the laws and appreciate it, but we study the law-maker also. That is the difference between ourself and the so-called scientists. They are left, poor fund of knowledge. They cannot appreciate that there is a law-maker of these subtle laws. That is their defect. That is called poor fund of knowledge. And as soon as we accept law-maker, we have to accept that He's a person, He has got brain. Therefore He can make laws. Just like the great ocean is working, but there is a law. It cannot come here. Although there is potency. At any second it can cover the whole city But there is a law. Just like state laws. Up to this. No more admission. You have to stop. Similarly, there is law of God. Where there is order: You mighty ocean, you cannot come beyond this. This is law. There is sun. "You must rise at half-past, at five o'clock in the morning." "Yes, sir." This is law. "You must rise on the Eastern side." "Yes, Sir." Not whimsically. Sometimes this side, sometimes that side, sometimes that side. Cannot do whimsically. That is law of nature. And behind the law of nature, there is the order-giver, law-maker. This is perfect knowledge. mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). "Under My superintendence, the laws of nature is working." This is intelligence.

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: Oh, even though he did not see the goat, he knew it was there.

Prabhupāda: No, he's seeing. Otherwise, how does he (makes sound) "Hut, hut, hut." He's seeing. Where is that machine? So this Darwin's theory says that there was no intelligent man or brain but how these books were written, thousands and thousands of years ago? These Vedic śāstras. If there were no intelligent brain? Vyāsadeva, like Vyāsadeva. Before Vyāsadeva also, other great sages, they compiled...

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I think it's easier here.

Brahmānanda: They have no explanation for the author who, of the Vedic literatures. They say: "unknown forest sages."

Prabhupāda: Unknown, it may be unknown, but the things are there. Where from they got the brain? That is our question. It may be unknown to you, or unknown to me, but the brain work is there. The philosophy is there, and the... At least, the language, the poetic arrangement, the linguistic strength, everything is there. So you may not know the person, but you can understand the brain.

Morning Walk -- April 21, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: They think our brain is increasing, but actually we see it decreasing. Because we cannot duplicate that...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only duplicate. You cannot even understand properly. Do you... To understand the Vedic philosophy, you have to tax your brain. Just like Bhagavad-gītā. Take, for Bhagavad-gītā. It is accepted as a great book of philosophy all over the world. And... Now wherefrom this brain came out. Apart from accepting Kṛṣṇa as God, take it, the language, take the language, the philosophy, the thoughts. How great they are. Now how can you say that people had no higher brain. Within hundred years everything has grown up. All these rascals. What is the Darwin's age?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Darwin says the, he says in his history of the origin, he cannot trace completely.

Prabhupāda: Whatever he has traced, what is the history of that tracing history? Tracing age?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So he started that life started from very primitive, different primitive forms...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. What is the time of Darwin. Which year he was a professor?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The theory started in 1859, about...

Prabhupāda: 1859. So hundred years ago. So all the brains developed within hundred years. All these rascals came out within hundred years. And before that, there was no other rascal. Just see the fun. All the scientific improvement, anthropology, everything came within hundred or two hundred years.

Morning Walk -- April 25, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: To confirm the symptoms.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Confirm the symptoms. If he says: "Yes," then immediately diagnosis is there. And as soon as diagnosis is there, the medicine is there. Simple method. Similarly, astrologers, they will see the constellation of the stars, and then the formula is there. "If this star is now with this star, if that planet is with that planet, then this is the result." So this Āyurvedic astrologer and physician requires little clear brain. Otherwise, very nice. The research work is already there. Just like we are. What is our research? Kṛṣṇa says: paras tasmāt tu bhāvaḥ anyaḥ (BG 8.20). "There is another nature." We believe it. We have not gone to another nature. But Kṛṣṇa says: "There is another nature, spiritual nature." This is, this material nature, inferior nature, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ (BG 7.4), apareyam, this is inferior. Apareyam itas tv anyāṁ prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām (BG 7.5). There is another superior nature. What is that? The living force. Who will argue? So we have got very easy method. And because we are receiving all this information from the most perfect, therefore our knowledge is perfect. That's all. And for all these rascals, śrama eva hi kevalam (SB 1.2.8). Unnecessarily they're laboring. They cannot come to the right conclusion. Therefore harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāh. Oh, what is the good quality? If you unnecessarily work without any result, then what is your qualification?

Brahmānanda: Mūḍha.

Morning Walk -- April 26, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: The future is very bad because of their military burden. Atomic bombs. This is what the scientists have created. They're thinking a bright future, but actually the future is...

Prabhupāda: Very dark.

Brahmānanda: ...seems very dark.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Idle brain is a devil's workshop. If they're not directed, then think like devil. We are thinking rightly because we are taking direction from Kṛṣṇa, the most perfect. Therefore our thinking has meaning. And what is the value of their thinking? It has no value. Now we are thinking... Just like, take the first instruction, that within this body there is the proprietor of the body. You can go on thinking: "Then am I this body?" So you can think on your finger. "I am this finger?" The answer from the within will come: "No, you are not finger. It is your finger. It is your finger. You are not finger." If I am finger, then if I cut my finger, why shall I not die? If I am finger? Therefore it is my finger. Just like I'll never think that I am this stick. It is my stick. That is thinking. That is thinking. If I wrongly think that I am this body, then your whole thinking process is wrong and they are thinking like that, that we are this body.

Morning Walk -- April 27, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Is it the same from pūrṇasya pūrṇam ādāya... (Iso Invocation)?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is preserved. Kārya kāraṇam, cause and effect. In the effect, the cause is there. Therefore, Veda says: sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma, everything is Brahman. Because the cosmic manifestation is the effect of the cause, energy of God. Therefore, in the effect there is God. mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā. "In impersonal form, I am existing everywhere." God says, Kṛṣṇa says. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni (BG 9.4). "Everything is existing on Me." Na cāhaṁ teṣu ava... "But I am not there." This is the personal and impersonal features of the Lord. The whole cosmic manifestation is the impersonal, it is resting on the energy of God, but you cannot find God here. The example is just like a big businessman, he has got a big factory. The factory's depending on the energy of that man, but if you want to see that man in the factory, you cannot see. Is that example nice? You cannot say that the factory is existing without him. It is in his brain the whole factory's running on. But if you want to find out where is he, that will be difficult.

Morning Walk -- April 30, 1973, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: But the food value will be taken by him. "Instead of paying to the stores, you pay us. We give you tablet."

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're dreaming so many things.

Prabhupāda: Idle brain is a devils' workshop. Because they have no Kṛṣṇa consciousness, their brain is a workshop of the devil. That's all. Harer nāma harer nāma... (CC Adi 17.21). (pause) And without culture men are becoming rogues and thieves, uncultured. Communist movement. Atheistic... Everywhere, nobody's happy. The government's duty, first duty should be that everyone is happy. That is described in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, during the time of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. Even there was no natural disturbances. No excessive heat, no excessive cold. No anxiety. People are dying now out of anxieties. They're becoming mad, committing suicide, drinking liquors more and more. Just for anxiety. When they cannot solve any big problem, "Bring bottle." Is it not?

Brahmānanda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: The original source is life.

Prabhupāda: Life, yes. They are searching after the original source. That is life, Kṛṣṇa, sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam (Bs. 5.1), cause of all causes. So this is not theory; this is fact. Now we have to prove it. Then the whole program of these rascals' theory will be changed, and people will be happy. Because they are standing on a wrong theory, all their calculations are wrong, and people are suffering. The rascal Darwin's theory. So many, based on this foolish theory, wrong conception of life. So we have to challenge, protest. defeat. This will be our work. Our worshiping of Kṛṣṇa, that is our internal affair. The external affair—we need to establish this theory. Otherwise they'll be leading this society. Misleading. They are misleading, not leading, misleading. So we have to stop this misleading. Make program how to do it. Because it is truth, you will come triumphant. There is no doubt about it. It is truth. Now you have to know how to present the truth. That is your business. We are not presenting something theories, concocted by my brain. No. This is the fact. Rudimentarily we have got evidences, but it has to be presented by the modern ways. They are presenting some wrong principle by propaganda, and we cannot establish real principle by factual presentation? What is the difficulty?

Brahmānanda: Well, when we ask them, they say, "I do not know."

Morning Walk -- May 3, 1973, Los Angeles:

Brahmānanda: It looks nice...

Prabhupāda: But as soon as gone, everything is finished. Why these rascals do not know? Why they cannot replace with chemicals to bring life again? Why these rascals are accepted, I do not know. If the matter is the cause of origin of life... Now one dead man, such a big man, such a Professor Einstein, big brain, he is dying. Put another chemical. Let him come back to life and work again. So why these rascals talk like this? You cannot protest? You should protest. Your protest will be accepted because our, they say that "You are not scientist. We cannot talk with you." That's all right. But here is a scientist. Talk with him. Where is your that material chemical by injecting which...? What do they say? What is wanting in the dead body that the body is dead?

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That they do not know.

Prabhupāda: Then there are so many things they do not know. Still, they are scientists? And they are passing on as leaders of the society. Everything is "I do not know," and he is a leader, scientist. What is this? A child, and he is passing on as teacher.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los Angeles:

Paramahaṁsa: Corpse.

Prabhupāda: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.

Paramahaṁsa: The question I have, Prabhupāda is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That means śūdras. That I have already said.

Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 17, 1973, Los Angeles:

Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: The doctors are marveling at the complex nature of the human brain. They are amazed.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. But they are rascal. It is not the brain that is working. It is the spirit soul that is working. The same thing: the computer machine. The rascal will think that a computer machine is working. No. The man is working. He pushes the button, then it works. Otherwise, what is the value of this machine? You keep the machine for thousands of years, it will not work. When another man will come, put the button, then it will work. So who is working? The machine is working or the man is working? And the man is also another machine. And it is working due to the presence of Paramātmā, God. Therefore, ultimately, God is working. A dead man cannot work. So how long a man remains living? So long the Paramātmā is there, ātmā is there. Even the ātmā is there, if Paramātmā does not give him intelligence, he cannot work. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). God is giving me intelligence, "You put this button." Then I put this button. So ultimately Kṛṣṇa is working. Another, untrained man cannot come and work on it because there is no intelligence. And a particular man who is trained up, he can work. So these things are going on. Ultimately comes to Kṛṣṇa. What you are researching, what you are talking, that is also Kṛṣṇa is doing. Kṛṣṇa is giving you in... You, you prayed for this facility to Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is giving you. Sometimes you find accidentally the experiment is successful. So when Kṛṣṇa sees that you are so much harassed in experimental, "All right do it." Just like Yaśodā Mā was trying to tie Kṛṣṇa, but she could not do. But when Kṛṣṇa agreed, it was possible. Similarly, this accident means Kṛṣṇa helps you: "All right, you have worked so hard, take this result." Everything is Kṛṣṇa. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Everything is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Room Conversation with Two Buddhist Monks -- July 12, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: That... Again I am quoting that Professor Kotofsky. He said, "Swamiji, after this body there is no life." That is their conviction. This is the primary teaching of spiritual life, that we have got next life. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Dehāntaram. After giving up this body, you have to accept another body. This is the first lesson of spiritual education. But they do not understand the first lesson even. What is their spiritual understanding?

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

So dehāntara-prāptiḥ they do not understand. And it is very easy, that "I am, dehāntaram, I am changing my body. I was a baby, I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man. So I have changed so many bodies. But I remember, I was a child. I remember. I was a boy. I remember. Therefore I am existing. My body has changed." Simple truth. Similarly, when this body will be changed, I will exist. Where is the difficulty to understand? But this plain thing they cannot understand. And they are passing as educated, philosopher, scientist. This plain truth, they cannot understand. The brain is so dull. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). "As I have changed so many bodies..." I exist. I remember, I had this body. So I may forget. Suppose in my babyhood, what was the feature of my body, I do not know. But there was. My mother knows. He can, she can explain, "My dear child, you were like this, you were like this." So forgetfulness is also not that I did not exist. I may not remember my last birth. That does not mean I did not exist. So forgetfulness is my nature.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Revatīnandana: And he's a very intelligent man. He's in the Mensa Society.

Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature it is said the animal killers cannot understand God.

Mother: Well, this is very good, sir, that you find this, and I say, this is not my argument... Yes. Hmmm.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Not practical also. I have seen the animal killers. They do not understand what is God. That is a fact. Neither they have got brain to understand it.

Mother: But you don't need brain if you're not going to study or to do anything further. If you just sit and sleep like...

Prabhupāda: No, we are studying. Because we are preaching, we are studying that. The animal eaters, they cannot have any conception of God. The brain is so dull.

Mother: What about your children? Where do they? Do they go to school?

Prabhupāda: Why not.

Mother: Are they edu...? Do they go to schools, your children?

Prabhupāda: They have now grown up. My grandsons are going to school.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Our training is... First of all, try to understand. We... Just like you have got four divisions in the body for maintaining the body. So the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. The leg is doing its own work, walking. The hand is doing its own work. And the belly's doing its own work. And the brain is doing own work. It does not mean that when the brain is work, it does not require the help of the leg. But a brain does not require to learn the business of the leg. This is the idea. The brain requires the help of the leg. But does not mean that brain has to learn how to walk also.

Mother: Well, I'm a nurse, and so that is why I would like...

Prabhupāda: So there must be division of work. So you take from... When there is necessity of brain work, you take help from him. And when there is need of the walking, take leg, help from the leg. It is a cooperation. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Mother: Yes. Well, as I say...

Prabhupāda: It does not...

Mother: I myself did a training. I became a nurse.

Prabhupāda: You are asking us "Why you are not taking medical education?" Why we shall take?

Mother: Because if everybody...

Prabhupāda: No, there is no necessity. If the... If I can pay, I can get the help of a medical man, why should I waste my time in that way? Let me...

Mother: You think? Ah, but you should be self-supporting.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: You should be self-supporting in that way.

Prabhupāda: Self-supporting. We are self-supporting. Just like... I have given the example. The body, the social body... You can take of this body. There are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. So belly is doing the work of the belly, stomach. The leg is walking. The hand is doing, defending, and the head and the brain is giving instruction to everyone. This is cooperation. So that is Vedic system of civilization. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra. There must be divisions of work. Not that everyone has to learn everything.

Mother: No, I don't mean that. You're misunderstanding me.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Then your question is replied. When I need the help of a medical man, I go to the medical man.

Mother: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there?

Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that...

Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find.

Garden Conversation with Mahadeva's Mother and Jesuit Priest -- July 25, 1973, London:

Mother: Well, what I'm saying to you is that...

Prabhupāda: No, what is the wrong? You find.

Mother: ...you can love God and be near God and train to be a medical man. Why don't you let some of your boys be trained to be medical men? Why do you say no?

Prabhupāda: But again you are putting the same question. We are training them for the brain, and you are asking me that "Why don't you train them for the leg?" That is your question.

Mother: But they can still love God. They can still work for God at the same time.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Why you are asking this brain to learn how to walk? Why you are asking this odd question?

Mother: Well, my brain works and I also, if there was a war tomorrow, I could go and be a nurse and look after the sick...

Prabhupāda: That's all right. That's all right.

Mother: ...and still be with God.

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. There are four divisions. So one division can take help of the other division. That is another thing. But you are asking that, "You are simply interested in brain. Why not for the leg?" But we are interested. But not in that way. When we can see that I can pay for the medical man and I can get the help, why shall I waste my time to become a medical man.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Yogeśvara: How should society be organized in order to achieve these goals?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You organize that there should be division of different classes of men. The first class men, the second class men, the third class men, fourth class men. The first-class men means the most intelligent class of men. Second-class men means those who are dealing in politics. Third-class men means those who are dealing in economics, industry, trade. And fourth-class men means they have no intelligence to take up all these things, but they work only. But all of them should cooperate. For the general benefit of the whole human society. We have got engagement for the first-class men, second-class men, third-class men, fourth-class men. Just like we have got in our body the brain, the arms, the belly, and the legs. But all of them are cooperating for keeping the body fit. Similarly, the first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class men should cooperate for achieving the end, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Bhagavān: It's not that one class is feeling exploited by another class.

Prabhupāda: No. No. Helping. Just like when there is some pain in my leg. My brain is working how to cure it. It is helping. It is not exploiting. Similarly, my brain wants to go somewhere to see something. My leg is helping to carry me there. Just like you wanted to see me. Your brain said that: "I must see this man." Your leg carried you. This is cooperation. You have got some capacity. You do it for the benefit of the society so that he may become Kṛṣṇa conscious. This, this plan is perfect socialism. Socialism, socialism means everyone is working for elevation of everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because that is the highest perfection of life.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That is rascaldom. We have divided already four classes of men. Even in Russia... Even in Russia, I have seen, they have created two classes, the worker class, the manager class. I have seen it. Yes. So you cannot say that everyone will do the same work. That is not possible. I have given already the example, the brain, the arms, the abdomen and the leg. The leg cannot do the work of brain. Leg can cooperate with the brain, but cannot do the work of brain. This is natural position.

Yogeśvara: He asks: In our society do these four divisions also exist?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Yogeśvara: In ISKCON, are there these four divisions?

Prabhupāda: No, we are transcendental to all these material divisions. This is material division.

Yogeśvara: In that case, in which of these four divisions are we?

Prabhupāda: First-class. That is the beginning. But we go above the first-class. (break) Similarly, socially also, you must have four divisions. The reason is the material nature is working under three divisions, goodness, passion and ignorance. In our body also, the brain is working under goodness quality. The arm is working under the influence of passion. The belly is working in between passion and ignorance. And the leg is working under ignorance. Leg cannot work unless there is direction by the brain. At the present moment, the society's working under the influence of passion and ignorance. The brain is lacking now. Therefore we are creating Kṛṣṇa conscious men who has got real brain. Intelligent class of men. So other classes of men who are acting under influence of passion and ignorance, they should take direction from us. And for our directing business, we don't charge anything. And if they follow our direction, they have no loss.

Room Conversation with French Journalist and UNESCO Worker -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Reporter: I have nothing to lose but do you think you could manage all society very complex, as our...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: It's more than...

Prabhupāda: We can, we can make the society perfect if they take our advice. Because we are working as the brain.

Bhagavān: He can see Prabhupāda's books. Our philosophy is not small philosophy.

Reporter: Just a last question. Just... You were saying, minute before that the socialism, your socialism is that Kṛṣṇa is your Marx, sort of.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Reporter: Yeah. But... It will be my last question. What about you in that? Would you be, you are a spiritual chief. Would you be...?

Prabhupāda: I am not spiritual chief. Kṛṣṇa is spiritual chief.

Reporter: Yeah.

Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Guru-gaurāṅga: So when this body is finished, why shall the soul be gone?

Prabhupāda: Even the father, mother is not crying. The mother's baby dies. She cries, she becomes mad. But when the child gives up that childhood body, accept another body, she's happy because she knows: "My son is there. He has only changed the body." The mother knows. Mother is not crying: "Oh, where is my child gone, sir?" He knows that "My child is here. He has changed his body." These are the arguments. If the foolish rascal will not accept genuine arguments, logic, then how he can be convinced? He's a animal. The animals cannot be convinced. Any man with little brain substance, he'll understand this. Where is the difficulty? But it is useless to talk with animals. You cannot argue with dogs and hogs. That is not possible. So if their brain is doggish and hoggish, how you can convince them? But the logic is there, the argument is there.

Room Conversation with Anna Conan Doyle, daughter-in-law of famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle -- August 10, 1973, Paris:

Guru-gaurāṅga: We were also discussing with Mrs. Conan Doyle and a friend of hers, how is it, if I'm thinking I am happy, or I do not have love for God, nor do I want to have love for God, how will I cultivate it?

Prabhupāda: Well, because at the present age we are in crazy or mad condition... What is called? Deformed brain. Therefore we cannot become. There is a poetry. Piśācī paile jana moti chana haya (?). As one becomes crazy when it is ghostly haunted, similarly a person under the clutches of māyā, he becomes also crazy like that. He talks all nonsense. How he can understand about God? Big, big hospitals in America for curing this craziness. Not only of the common being. Even for the priests. In America, they have got hospital for curing alcoholic habit of the priest. Five thousand patients. So he's alcoholic and he's in the priestly dress. This is going on. Because he's getting his salary, so he's maintaining his priestly dress. But internally, what he is, he knows only. Or when he comes into the open eyes, then one can know: "Oh, here is a priest, admitted in the alcoholic hospital." (end)

Discussion about Guru Maharaji -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Devotee: Propaganda.

Prabhupāda: Then you have to make propaganda against that, that simply pushing two eyes... Anyone can push two eyes and there is natural some light. Is that the proof that he has become God? You are so foolish? And you say that God is, God has created the universe. So what he has created? What he has done, wonderful thing? That simply by pushing your eyes, you see some light, and you become God? You have become so foolish, European brain? You have no intelligence. Preach against him. What is the proof that he is God? Now, those who do not know anything about God, they can be convinced. Just like—what is called?—agnostic. The agnostic... Sometimes we say that there is a creator because everything, just we say, everything, whatever we have got in our experience, it is created. So this gigantic universe or one or many, there must be one creator. This is one hypothesis. So that creator, if I accept this man, whether he can create something, such wonderful? Has he done so? In this way, you have to make propaganda. So far our position is, we accept God, Kṛṣṇa, on the authority, as well as by the action, both. We, we make hypothesis that there must be a creator. Vedānta says: "Yes, there is a creator." And Kṛṣṇa says, He says: "I am the creator of everything." And when He was at, on this planet, He did so many wonderful things. And He is accepted by big, big stalwarts. Just like Arjuna accepts. He heard Bhagavad-gītā. So before that, Nārada accepts. Vyāsadeva accepts. Great... Later on, big, big ācāryas accept. So these are the proof. But what proof he can give that he's God, that we shall accept him God? Simply he shows some light. We have to make some propaganda. That will be our (indistinct). And he has to be... If we remain silent, then whatever he says, that means we are accepting. So we should not allow this man to grow popularity. We must make propaganda wherever meeting is there. I can kick on the face of this (indistinct). I can urine on the face of... What can he do. Let them. Let him come. If he's God, then let him kill me by his power. When I go to kick on his face, let him stop me, then I shall accept that he's God. So why don't you do that? He's saying God. You just kick on his face, if he can do something... In this way, make some counter-propaganda. If we allow him to go on, then so many people falsely being misled.

Discussion about Guru Maharaji -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Haṁsadūta: Yes, this is the idea.

Prabhupāda: So God could not... Kṛṣṇa says: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo... (BG 18.66). That God can, without dying Himself, He can immediately and, I mean to say, vanquish all sinful action. Why He should be killed for that purpose? Just like the Pūtanā gave Kṛṣṇa poison. But Pūtanā was killed. And Kṛṣṇa was never ki... Kṛṣṇa cannot be killed by poison. Even Kṛṣṇa's devotees are not killed by poison. Prahlāda Mahārāja. If we discuss in detail, we create animosities. Therefore we do not discuss because Christian religion is followed by large number. We do not wish to make... We say yes. He says: "Son of God." We accept it. That's all. To accept a person God, that requires great evidences from śāstra. Especially. And when he's present, He will prove the statement of the śāstra. Then we accept Caitanya Mahāprabhu, God. There are evidences... (break) You see. We don't allow anybody to pass on as God because we are presenting real God. We must make process. The real process is to kill him. But that much power we haven't got. We cannot do that. Otherwise, we would have done so. Nobody should be allowed to claim as God. And severe punishment for him. Kṛṣṇa has shown this example. (break) We explain two, three lines from Bhāgavatam. How much people appreciated. So we have to preach like that, the substance. Not the sentiment. But if we cannot, the saṅkīrtana is sufficient. (break) ...anumāna-pramāṇa. Anumāna, hypothesy, and pramāṇa, śāstra-pramāṇa. Śruti-pramāṇa. evidences from the Vedas. Evidences from authorized persons. And anumāna also. That is not good evidence. But even if you take anumāna, that if I make... This table is created by somebody. It is all right. But to find out that somebody is still further progress. Similarly, we have to accept that this gigantic universe... As I say that what is the purpose? If there is purpose, whose purpose? Who is acting? In this way, we have to make progress. We are passing on, on the street. If I say: "Here is a big building. So someone is proprietor." This is one guess. But to know the proprietor, how he has constructed it, that is another thing. But if somebody says: "I am the proprietor." And we accept immediately? Similarly if someone says: "I am God." There is no need of evidence. "I am God." The people have to accept like that? There is no need of śāstra. How much degraded people have become that without any little evidence, they're accepting a rascal as God. How much degraded they have become. That is another thing. Because he has shown, by pushing the eyes, a light. That's all... We have to see that how much degraded the persons are. They have no even brain. What are the evidence, that he showed some light, and what else?

Haṁsadūta: Some music.

Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor -- August 13, 1973, Paris:

Professor: Now I understand exactly what the purpose of your movement is. I just wonder if you think the Western world is ready for this message?

Prabhupāda: Yes, why not ready? So many young men are coming.

Professor: So many, O.K., yes, but consideration of so many other people outside this temple...

Prabhupāda: No, any sane man will accept. This cult will not be accepted by the insane. One who is in quite order of the brain, he'll accept it. Only mūḍhas. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ (BG 7.15).

Professor: And in India where is your āśrama or something like that?

Prabhupāda: My main āśrama is in Vṛndāvana.

Professor: Where?

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana.

Professor: Oh, in Vṛndāvana, itself.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyāpur. Lord Caitanya. And we have got branch in Calcutta, Bombay, Hyderabad. Māyāpur and Vṛndāvana. Five, six... (break) I, I brought with me forty rupees and books. That's all.

Professor: Forty rupees! That was not enough to live in Boston or in New York.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And now we are spending about eighty thousand dollars per month.

Professor: Per month.

Room Conversation -- September 1, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana?

Śrutakīrti: Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties he said.

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are varieties. Ānanda, ānanda, pleasure means varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. Without varieties, just like we prepare from grains, sugar, ghee, hundreds of varieties. If you simply give grain, ghee and sugar, it will not be enjoyable. But the same thing, you prepare in varieties and give you a plate, oh, you'll say, "Oh, so nice thing." The ingredients are the same. Grains, ghee and sugar, that's all. Similarly, this material world, the ingredients are the same. Namely five gross elements and three subtle elements, finer. Earth, water, air, fire, sky. These are gross elements. And mind, intelligence, ego these are finer elements. Combined together this material world has come. The brain behind is a living entity. Just like we are using these ingredients, these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, sky, making this building, making this table, making this chair, vase, so many things, harmonium, pictures, book. So the ingredients are the same, but my brain is working in different varieties. My brain or your brain. Human brain. Similarly this material cosmic manifestation is full of varieties. The brain behind it is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated, you have read our Bhagavad-gītā?

Guest: I've taken a look.

Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London:

Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... (BG 2.13), dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."

Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me.

Prabhupāda: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.

Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animals. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category because when he'll get..., he'll get another body in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness? If you make progress. Yes. This is progressive. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati (BG 2.13).

dehino 'smin yathā dehe

kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā

tathā dehāntara-prāptir

dhīras tatra na muhyati

(BG 2.13)

So people cannot understand. That means they are not dhīra, not even, according to Vedic conc..., not even gentlemen. One who cannot understand this simple theory, that, "After this body, as I have changed so many bodies, similarly, I shall change this body also." That's a fact. So dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra, one who has got brain, one who can think, he'll not be puzzled. "Yes, he has... Death means he has changed body." Any gentle, good brain will understand. But people are so foolish now, they cannot understand. They are not educated even to understand this simple thing. This is the position of the world. Even a big professor like Kotofsky. So this is the position of our present human society.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: Do you think that's a fact...

Dr. Hauser: It's not a fact. I don't know whether it's a fact. I... But that's...

Prabhupāda: Then that means illusioned. You are not confident, but you accept that theory. This is illusion.

Dr. Hauser: But... Yes. But...

Prabhupāda: But you should apply your reason, from practical life, whether life is produced from matter, or matter is produced from life. Our proposition is: matter is produced from life, not life is produced from matter. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said: janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates. Now that Absolute Truth, whether he's life or dead stone. So that is discussed: janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (SB 1.1.1). That Absolute Truth must be cognizant. So as soon as you say cognizant, then He's alive. Abhijñaḥ. That, that means if I say: "I have produced all these things that is within the room," then means I must have brain. I must be experienced how to do it. How I can be dead, matter? Has the matter has got such thing? The origin of creation must be a living being.

Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist -- September 10, 1973, Stockholm:

Prabhupāda: No. He believed in God. Yes. He believed in God. He was not a rascal. A sane man.

Paramahaṁsa: Carl Jung also.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He believed in God.

Dr. Hauser: Yes.

Prabhupāda: He tried to find out the brain of God. So he's not rascal. He's sane man. Those who are defying God, they're rascal, demons. Einstein believed in God. Yes. There are many scientists, they believe in God. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... Unless one is God conscious, he's a rascal. Immediately, take it. We take it like that. As soon as you say godless, atheist, oh, a rascal. That's all. It may be the understanding of God is not so perfect. But he thinks there is God. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. And the demons will never accept God. Just like in Russia. All set of rascals. They do not believe in God.

Dr. Hauser: But the interest... The religious interest in Russia is, is greater than in any other country in Europe. But not the, the leaders are not...

Prabhupāda: I say the leaders. Not only in Russia. Everywhere. The leaders, the rascal leaders spoiling the whole world situation. In India also. In India, by nature, they are aloof from these four principles of sinful life. Eighty percent of the population, by nature. But government, at the present moment, the leaders, they're inducing them to eat meat, to drink. And gambling also. Introducing. Gambling. Government is issuing that gambling cards. Because government means some rascal just like Nixon has gone to the power. Now he's proved he's a rascal. So everywhere the government leaders means all rascals.

Interviews with Macmillan and various English Reporters -- September 12, 1973, London:

Reporter (1): Why is it so popular among young people?

Prabhupāda: Because they have got knowledge. Young people are receptive. Young people, education is given during youth time, not in old age. Old men cannot take any education. Whatever he has learned, he'll take another period of fifty years to forget that. Therefore sometimes it is called "old fools." But young men, they are receptive, they have got brain. When they understand that "Here is something," they understand.

Reporter (1): Many thanks. I'm very grateful... (break)

Prabhupāda: Thank you.

Haṁsadūta: Haribol. (break) This gentleman's from the Sunday Mirror.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Haṁsadūta: His newspaper, is that right?

Reporter (2): That's right. Ah...

Prabhupāda: Oh, Sunday Mirror, they published, some, something about us...

Haṁsadūta: I think you published something about us a few weeks ago, about the manor out at Letchmore Heath.

Reporter (2): That's right. Yes. With a lot of pictures. Were you there at the time?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Reporter (2): You were there at the time?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973, Bombay:

Śrutakīrti:

śamo damas tapaḥ śaucaṁ

kṣāntir ārjavam eva ca

jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ

brahma-karma svabhāva-jam

(BG 18.42)

"Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brāhmaṇas work."

Prabhupāda: So those who will act as brain, they must possess these qualities. But who is being taught these qualities? This modern civilization is teaching people how to steal, how to cheat, how to satisfy your own sense gratification. You see? No tolerance, no complete knowledge. All fools and rascals, no knowledge. Knowledge means they must know what is the aim of life, what is God, what we are, what is this material world, why we have come here. So many things. This is called God consciousness. There is no such educational institution all over the world. Is there any institution where it is being especially taught what is God, what I am. Is there any institution?

Banker: Well, there are metaphysics departments in almost every university.

Prabhupāda: Metaphysics department is there. I was also a student of philosophy. That is theories only. Of course, they are trying, psychology, metaphysics, ethics. You were also a student of philosophy?

Banker: I took some courses. My major courses were in business. But I took some in philosophy, ethic, logic.

Prabhupāda: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform, there must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is not possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required. The society must be divided into four classes. That is brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra.

Room Conversation -- November 4, 1973, Delhi:

Prabhupāda: But that does not mean he knows the Vedic literatures.

Guest: No, but they were...

Prabhupāda: Nāyam ātmā pravacanena labhyo (Sanskrit)... This is another verse (?).

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Simply because you have good brain substance, you'll be a devotee?

Guest: No, no. Bhāvanaḥ(?).

Prabhupāda: Bhāvanaḥ(?) means it is, it is by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. If one is sincerely surrendered soul unto Kṛṣṇa, then He gives the intelligence how to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. It is not a mechanical way.

Guest: No.

Prabhupāda: It is not a mechanical way. Simply one has to become very serious and sincere, then you develop. yasya deve parā bhaktir yathā deva tathā gurau, prakāśaḥ (ŚU 6.23). He becomes revealed. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya yoga-māyā-samāvṛtaḥ (BG 7.25). He is not revealed to everyone. It requires the qualification how to become a devotee, surrendered soul. (Hindi) Your daughter, as soon as there was kīrtana, how she was dancing?

Guest: Hm.

Prabhupāda: She is young girl.

Guest: She is very devoted.

Prabhupāda: She has the advanced devotion. Therefore.... She is a young girl, she was not ashamed, so immediately she began to dance.

Morning Walk -- December 6, 1973, Los Angeles:

Hṛdayānanda: Well.

Bali Mardana: We know from experience.

Karandhara: Yes. Calm state of mind, emitting alpha rays, alpha brain waves. Smoke opium you get the same thing.

Hṛdayānanda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating.

Umāpati: They say that's an easy way.

Karandhara: Why not take the easy way?

Prabhupāda: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.

Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the...

Prabhupāda: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: If we don't experience, we may not know that we are suffering.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because we have got little freedom. Therefore this freedom is given, "All right..." So by freedom, sometimes we are becoming Lord Brahmā and sometimes the germ in the stool. This is going on. Otherwise, why there are so many different types of living entities? That freedom is acting under three modes: sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and tamo-guṇa. And when they are multiplied, three into three equals nine, nine into eighty-one; therefore 8,400,000 species. They experience everything. That is evolution, coming down, again going up, coming down again. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). So when they become exasperated, "No more." They want to become merging into the Supreme. When they are fatigued. After being karmī, then jñānī: "This is not good. What is actually our aim of life, let us search out." But because they make research in their teeny brain, they come to the conclusion, voidism and impersonalism, that "Make it zero, this botheration." That is also imperfect. So when they come to Bhagavān and engage himself in the service, then it is perfect, original.

Morning Walk -- December 16, 1973, Los Angeles:

Viśvareta: Scientists, they have their mental process, but what is our process to understand this knowledge?

Prabhupāda: Ascending. Ah, descending, not ascending. We have to take knowledge from superior. We should not try ourself to know. That will be imperfect. Avaroha-patha. Just like we're receiving knowledge from Kṛṣṇa. We are not researching. Those who are researching, they cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. They understand Kṛṣṇa as ordinary human being, maybe little learned. That's all. The Dr. Frog's calculation of Atlantic Ocean. That's all. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). (break) ...automatically. You see? But he does not know that behind this automation there is brain. He'll see, "Oh, how nice." That's all. Similarly, child-like scientist, they will say, "Everything is going on automatically." (break) ...but there is brain behind that.

Karandhara: But for the child, the presents at Christmas do appear automatically by the grace of the parents. So the fruits appear automatically by the grace of Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Girirāja: Well, all of these different varieties of plants, animals, planetary systems, the sun rising, there has to be some controller, some brain who has made this order.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.

Devotee: They can become convinced simply by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the background. But you have to explain.

Girirāja: Their speaking power, that they are making their political speeches, that is also given by God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Girirāja: At any moment it can be taken away. So they are under control. But they will raise the point that "We have our concept of God and you have your concept of God."

Prabhupāda: No. God cannot be "your God" or "my God." God is one. You cannot say that. Just like you cannot say in the United States that "your concept of president, my concept of president." President is one. If you manufacture your concept of president, that means you do not know what is president. President of United States, he has got a status, constitution, that "This is the president." So you must know that. You cannot say, "I have my concept of president." That you cannot say. Can you say that?

Girirāja: No.

Prabhupāda: Then? The president is one. Either you don't know or I don't know. So we must know what is that president. This is first point, what is God.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Devotee: The scientists say that everything had its origin with a big bang. All of a sudden one day there was a big bang and everything came into being.

Prabhupāda: What is that big bang. You do not know. It is your suggestion. Big bang means big brain or what? Big bang? What is that, a big bang?

Devotee: Noise.

Prabhupāda: Hm? (aside:) Don't come near. Noise? Big bang, what is that big bang?

Devotee: The scientists say that in the beginning the universe wasn't created, and then all of a sudden there was a big explosion and everything just kind of happened. Everything just came into being.

Prabhupāda: But how all of a sudden there can be explosion? What is this nonsense proposition? As soon as there is question of explosion, before the explosion takes place, there must be some arrangement. The time bomb explosion. So the bomb is prepared by something, some bomb is kept by somebody, and after some time it explodes. So how all of a sudden? Where does he get this idea? Just like if there is bomb explosion here, a child may think, "All of a sudden there is a bomb explosion," but a sane man will not think that. There will be inquiry, "Who kept this bomb? Who brought this bomb?" That is sanity. "And all of a sudden explosion," this is all rascal proposal. Therefore the people have become so rascal, guided by these rascals, "All of a sudden, by chance," and they accept them as scientist... This is the drawback of the present civilization. Because they are śūdras, like animals, they have got no brain to answer that "How all of a sudden there can be explosion." They have no brain even to ask. Rather, they are giving Nobel Prize. This rascal is speaking like a rascal, still, he should get Nobel Prize. That is the defect. The people at the present moment, they are all rascals. Just like animals. And yes, actually they are animals. Just like animals are eating, sleeping, mating, and eating meat. The other one animal is eating another animal. That's all. No discretion, nothing. This is a civilization of animals, polished animals. Their consciousness has become animalistic. Therefore this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Morning Walk -- December 18, 1973, Los Angeles:

Girirāja: But they may say "Where did God come from?"

Prabhupāda: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not?

Girirāja: Yes.

Devotee: Something can't come from nothing.

Prabhupāda: No. We have no such experience. How we accept this nonsense statement? We have no such experience. I can accept something that is going on. Can you show me? So we show. You study with your experience. Where is your experience that something comes all of a sudden? There is no such thing. So how can I accept your statement? Because you say, "There was explosion," that means there is God. That means there is God. So what is your argument? You say that "Why you bring God?" I bring God because you say, "There was explosion."

1974 Conversations and Morning Walks

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is the symptom of material nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So this yajña means to satisfy the Lord. Yajñārthe karma. So when you miss this yajña, then everything becomes disturbed. When you become godless then the whole thing will be disturbed. And practically also, if you pay income tax, then government arrangement is everything, nicely going on. And as soon as stop income tax, then whole thing... There is no finance, there is deficit, this, that, so many things. So yajña is yajñārthe karmaṇo 'nyatra. Everything should be done for the Yajña, for Viṣṇu. Then everything is in order. In Kali-yuga, other, costly yajñas are not possible. Therefore yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyaiḥ. Saṅkīrtana. But these rascals will not take. If you say that "This simple yajña, you take it. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. All problems will be solved," they will not believe. They will not take it. They are so misfortunate. Śāstra says, yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). Su-medhasaḥ. Those who have got good brain, they take up this yajña process. Su-medhasaḥ. And another word is alpa-medhasaḥ, less brain substance. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām (BG 7.23). They are doing all other things, but not yajña. Therefore alpa-medhasām: their brain substance is small. And here is su-medhasaḥ. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is the sign of merit: You do something which will produce good result. And if you, cats and dogs, if you simply jump over, what you will do result? That Lilavati Munshi of Bombay, she is the wife of a big man, K. Munshi. So she was asking, "Swamiji, how you made like this?" Everyone is surprised because nobody has done like this. I said that "Because I have taken the proper method, therefore it is done so nicely." The method must be right. It may be simple, but it must be right method.

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, what is the Vedic explanation of the working principle of the brain, how our brain is working.

Prabhupāda: Brain is working, because you living entity, soul, is there. Just like I am typing, and he is typing. I have got the latest mechanical, improved typist, and he has got old, bygone age typist, similarly, according to our karma, capacity, Kṛṣṇa gives us facility. So brain is that facility. Kṛṣṇa gives us. Not that... So far the brain substance is concerned, a dog's brain and your Professor Einstein's brain is the same. His brain, same. But because Professor Einstein is advanced in knowledge, he is working differently. Otherwise, when Einstein, the soul is off from the body, and the dog is off from the body, you will see the brain, equally the same. So this, your scientists, they do not know.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that there are about nine billion cells. They are called neurons.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Just like I have given already. Why nine billion cells are there? Because you can work with it. I have given an electric running on typewriter because I know how to work it. Otherwise, this electric machine and the old electric machine, they are made of the same iron, but if I know how to work it, then I can utilize this machinery. But for a layman, it will be all the same. So that is karma. According to karma, we get a body. The body's machinery is also well-equipped, as I can work. This is nature's gift. Not that "This brain is first-class, that brain is first-class, er last class." All brain, last class. It is matter. The man who is working, the soul who is working, he is first-class, second-class, third-class. It is said clearly, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati: (BG 18.61) "Īśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is situated in everyone's heart." Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā: (BG 18.61) "He is offered a yantra, a machine, made by material energy." But that is under the direction of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has asked the material energy "Give a good machine; he can work. Good or bad, as He wants, as He wants. That's all. Give him a..." yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. It is all bad. Either this electric machine or that manual machine. They are all matter. So anything material, that is bad. But he wants it; "All right, give it." That is going on. He wants this facility. Now before these motorcars, people were walking on foot. All business was being done. But we wanted a machine like that, so Kṛṣṇa has given us brain to manufacture. That's all. But what you will benefit by this? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "You give up all this nonsense proposal." But they will not do that. They will create another nonsense desire. That desire should be stopped. That is desireless. Because they will go on simply proposing some nonsense desire... That is their material existence. Now, they have discovered this, made this motor, nice... Now there is problem, no power, gasoline. And if the gasoline is stopped, then your whole endeavor is gone. So this is their business. They are manufacturing something which will entangle him more and more. That he does not know.

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: The airlines have laid off so many thousands of people because there isn't enough gasoline to fly all the aeroplanes. So they are just laying off people. They are becoming unemployed now.

Prabhupāda: Yes, one after another, problem will come.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: Coming to the brain again, the, some people are working. Why some people are insane? For example, the mechanism of working the brain, some of the chemical pathways, they say, change, block. So some people become insane.

Prabhupāda: Insane? Then he cannot work. That's all. Even if I give you good machine... Just like I do not know how to work on it, so similarly, if one does not know how to work, then it is useless machine.

Karandhara: They are thinking that by certain types of chemicals they can correct things like depression and unhappiness. They say it's all just a chemical situation in the brain.

Prabhupāda: But that they propose so many nonsense things, but they cannot do anything.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are making experiments on rats now.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. They will go on experimenting life after life. That is their foolishness.

Morning Walk -- January 10, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Yes. And some of our politicians, he has become a dog. Yes. Nehru. He has become a dog, in Stockholm. Yes.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I told that to my mother and she would not believe it. You know, people think that if someone is a great politician or something, he can never become something like this.

Prabhupāda: Then why the politician dies? If he has got so good brain, let him live forever.

Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: People have so much blind faith in people like Nehru and Gandhi.

Prabhupāda: Jawaharlal Nehru did not want to give up his Prime Ministership unless he was collapsed. So why he did not live if he is so intelligent? And Kṛṣṇa says, if you have to believe Bhagavad-gītā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ (BG 2.13). "He has to accept another body." So why you should disbelieve that he has accepted a dog's body? Because the acceptance of body is not your business. It is the business of higher nature. Daiva-netreṇa. So if the daiva likes that "You must take this dog's body," how can you refuse it? You cannot refuse.

Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday in the paper I saw a picture. Nixon had his sixty-first birthday, and he had a big cake made, and he offered the first bite, the first lick to his dog.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good. That is stated in the Bhagavad... ārto 'rthārthī. He is in great distress. Now he is taking shelter of God. Ārto 'rthārthī. Then he is good at least. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna. Ārtaḥ. Ārtaḥ means very much distressed. He is very much distressed than all the Americans.

Morning Walk -- January 11, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: ...therefore they see that this, their conception of Kṛṣṇa, there is mother, there is father, there is friend—"So what is this? Here also we see the mother, father, friend. So how they become free?" They cannot understand. Their brain is so poor they cannot understand. Therefore they: "It is also māyā. To think of Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme, having father, mother, friends, playing pastimes, this is also māyā." Therefore they are called Māyāvādīs. They cannot conceive that in the spiritual world exactly the same things there are, but the position is different. That is absolute, without any designation.

Candanācārya: Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Candanācārya: Also this morning you said that we should try to only love Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Candanācārya: And nothing else.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Morning Walk -- January 11, 1974, Los Angeles:

Gurukṛpā: Yes, I heard.

Prabhupāda: Then Brahmānanda give me assurance. "I can take charge." Therefore I signed. But factually, he was as good as Madhudviṣa. (laughs) He made a contract with a, that camp, forty thousand rupees. I settled up for ten thousand rupees. So our work is going on in India and money's spent. Fifty percent is spoiled by this American brain. What can be done? There is no... They'll loot. They cheat. Like anything. Just like this camp. It was, it was Brahmānanda and Madhudviṣa combined together made a contract-forty thousand rupees. Then I said that "Then I am not going to pay you. You go." In Kumbha Melā also, the contract was ten thousand. So five thousand already paid. So I said, "I have no money. You have to become satisfied with the ten thousand." So they began some trouble, but after all, accepted. Because they make five hundred percent profit.

Gurukṛpā: As soon as they see American, it becomes twice as much.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Twice not. Five hundred times. (laughter) As soon as they face: "They're Americans. They have got money."

Morning Walk -- January 15, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Feeling all right? I think you joined when I first came here?

Jayaśrī: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Thank you. (break) ...savitā sakala-grahāṇām. Gāyatrī mantra is worshiping the sun. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇāṁ rājā samasta-sura-mūrtir aśeṣa-tejāḥ, unlimitedly powerful, unlimitedly heated. Aśeṣa, how much heat is there, your brain cannot accommodate. And therefore it is said, aśeṣa-tejāḥ: "without any limit." This is God's creation. Where is the scientist who can create a small sun? How this water is going there? Where is the pipe? You rascal, if you want to pump your water in the skyscraper building, you require pumping and pipe and so many things, but where is the pipe? And where is the pumping station or pumping machine? But you'll find so much water. How the water is transferred there? What is their explanation? They'll use simply some bogus jugglery of words. That's all. But produce it, without pipe, without pump. Let the water go up, up. "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do it." And what about of the present? Who is that scientist?

Bali Mardana: They say it is an accident, that the world is going to the...

Prabhupāda: They are rascals. Therefore I always say, "Kick them on their face with your shoes, so-called scientists." "Accident." There is no question of accident. Mūḍha. Therefore they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mūḍhāḥ, rascals, narādhama. Narādhama, the lowest of the mankind. Because they got this opportunity to appreciate the work of Kṛṣṇa, but they avoid it, they are narādhama. No, they are so big, big graduate, scientists, and..." māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15). Their real knowledge is taken away, simply childish proposing something, so-called scientists. Real knowledge is to see everywhere Kṛṣṇa, mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram (BG 9.10). The supervision of Kṛṣṇa. That is real knowledge. Not only to appreciate, but to explain it also. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī will appreciate, but cannot explain how it is being done. Madhyama-adhikārī will explain. That is preacher. And uttama-adhikārī, he thinks that everyone knows, everyone knows. He does not see that somebody knows, somebody does not know. He sees everyone knows. That is uttama-adhikārī. He does not make any distinction.

Morning Walk -- January 15, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: That means rascal. That means rascal. (japa) (break) ...plastic group like this? Their life will be finished. (break)

Devotee: ...in Time magazine yesterday, and the scientists are thinking now that man is his mind. They were talking about the brain.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee: That if man only knew his mind he would know himself. What is actually the brain? And the mind?

Prabhupāda: Mind, that is also matter, material.

Devotee: They're saying that the mind or the brain is the source of man's consciousness.

Prabhupāda: No. Brain is the instrument for expressing consciousness. Otherwise, when the man is dead, why the brain does not work? Do you follow?

Devotee: Yeah.

Prabhupāda: Why the brain work stops?

Devotee: The soul leaves the body.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Body is also material. Spirit soul, so long there is within the body, it works. You cut this tree and it will dry, it will not work. So long the soul is there, it is very luxuriant, very beautiful. (japa) (break) ...further?

Devotee: No.

Morning Walk -- January 16, 1974, Hawaii:

Prabhupāda: Yes. Your wife also did not like?

Bali Mardana: Oh, she likes it.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) Then it is all right. You are American fools. And she is Japanese. Japanese are very intelligent. Yes. Extraordinarily. They're just like Bengalis. Yes. Because mostly they eat fish. Fish is very good thing. It has got sufficient quantity of phosphorus. So brain becomes nice—for this crude work, not for fine spiritual work.

Bali Mardana: No.

Sudāmā: Śrīla Prabhupāda, yesterday I received a telephone call from Gopāla and he said that in a month-

Prabhupāda: Gopāla Kṛṣṇa?

Sudāmā: -yes, Gopāla Kṛṣṇa, Mahārāja, in Tokyo.

Bali Mardana: No, Gopāla Svāmī.

Sudāmā: Gopāla Svāmī.

Prabhupāda: Gopāla Svāmī, yes.

Sudāmā: And he said that within a month the society will be registered there in Japan. That the registration is finally coming to effect.

Satsvarūpa: There was also a telegram from Bhūrijana in Hong Kong.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Morning Walk -- February 22, 1974, Bombay:

Prabhupāda: That clerical staff, they are making budget. One clerk is saying. "No, no, it must be twenty lakhs." And another clerk says, "No, no, ten lakhs."

Indian Man (4): The same thing here.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So these clerks settle up budget. And the minister says, "Now it is..." The ministers even tax their brain... This is... Whatever the lower staff, clerks...

Dr. Patel: They are brainless, to tell the truth. The scum of the society has gone... The other day, I said, "Who are the ministers today?" The middle class of people, those rogues and rascals who followed Gandhiji.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dr. Patel: The highest people died out. We, who were young boys, we are, in our own ways, engaged in our own professions. The rascals... The rascals are the ministers. Am I right or wrong?

Prabhupāda: Oh yes. From the beginning. From the beginning. Now, if you don't mind, I'll say. This Jawaharlal was rejected by his father. After coming from foreign country, he was simply after women. So his father thought that "This son is useless." So he was lying useless. So when Gandhi approached Motilal Nehru, that "Come and join," so he took the opportunity that "I am coming, settling up. You please take my son." So that is the beginning of Jawaharlal Nehru's life.

Morning Walk -- March 4, 1974, Mayapura:

Jayapatākā: This, from this... This is the land that we want to get. It starts from here. And that's our land there. (break)

Prabhupāda: ...immediately appreciates Kṛṣṇa's intelligence. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate svā-bhāvikī... (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). It is being done as if automatically, but no, there is brain. That brain, these rascals, they cannot find out. Machine, nature only. What is this nature? Nonsense. So which way we shall go? This way? Up to the river?

Jayapatākā: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Each and every grain...

Jayapatākā: Here's our mango tree.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Viṣṇujana: Mango.

Prabhupāda: Mango tree?

Bhavānanda: Yes, we planted, uh... (end)

Morning Walk -- March 6, 1974, Mayapura:

Prabhupāda: The only question is that first of all, keep your life. Then you cure another life. Life in you is already there. Now keep it. Protect it by some machine or by some chemical. Then you talk all this nonsense. What do you think, Viṣṇujana Mahārāja?

Viṣṇujana: At the fairs in the United States, they have exhibits of what the scientists are doing, and one scientist has actually invented a machine... Costs one hundred thousand dollars, and this machine can take the head of a man from his body and keep the brain cells still going, and they expect that this machine, they expect, they haven't done it to anyone because no one will do it...

Prabhupāda: That expectation is always there. Any fool can expect anything. That is another thing.

Viṣṇujana: But they've done it with goat head.

Prabhupāda: We are concerned what you are doing now. That's all. We are not for expectation, future hope. We do not believe in that. Trust no future, however pleasant. It may be pleasant to you, but we don't believe it. You rascals, you can feel, but history shows that after death, no brain works. So we take this simple conclusion, that this brain is useless. So am I right or wrong?

Siddha-svarūpānanda: You are right.

Prabhupāda: Sudāmā Vipra, you are very critical. You can say. Am I right or wrong?

Sudāmā Vipra: You're right. (laughter)

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

Bhagavān: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone's life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyāsa.

Prabhupāda: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn't matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brāhmaṇas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaiśya. And the balance, they're all śūdras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you'll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, śūdra. That's all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that "Give me second initiation, a sacred thread." And after getting it, business finished: "Now I'm liberated. Let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighās of land, and I have calculated in Māyāpur, setting aside twenty bighās for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighās of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated.

Morning Walk -- March 12, 1974, Vrndavana:

ya-ṛṣi: ...including devotees and funds and everything.

Prabhupāda: Then... The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works... What do you call? Idle brain is devil's workshop. And the devil is kāminī-kāñcana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (break) ...instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaiṣṇava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared—Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja—for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are not prepared.

Prabhupāda: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that "You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?" What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. (break) ...especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle... What is? Opiate...? What is called?

Devotees: Opiate of the people.

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Devotee: Actually the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava.

Prabhupāda: Ah. They're Vaiṣṇava. But because they have got to live in the material world, there must be division of work. If everyone wants to become the brain, who will act as leg? That is also required. If everyone says, "No, no, I'm not going to do the work of leg. I want simply to work as..." No. It is needed. The brain is needed, the hand is needed, the belly is needed, the leg is needed. So that we have to divide. Who will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as leg... The main aim is how to maintain this body perfectly, fit. That should be the aim, how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this hand, leg, brain, belly must be divided. Just like there's slight difference, those who are directly engaged in temple worship and those who are going to sell books. Apparently there's difference, but basically there is no difference. Like that. If one can sell books nicely, why he should be, I mean to say, engaged in the temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there is no difference between selling the books and temple worship. Or washing the dish. There's no difference, because it is all transcendental. Just like aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti. Kṛṣṇa's hands and legs, there's no difference. You've read this verse?

Haṁsadūta: Yes, aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya...

Prabhupāda: But still leg and hand.

Morning Walk -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Bhagavān: So there's so much to do in Kṛṣṇa's service, everyone can be engaged in some...

Prabhupāda: Yes, that everyone should know... Suppose one is engaged in cooking prasādam. You should see that nice prasādam is served to the worker, quickly, so they can take prasādam, be healthy and go on preaching. So he is helping preaching by cooking. Just like you are working and the brain is also working, "Go this side, go that side, the car is coming." Brain says, the... "Leg, come this side." Everyone is working. The leg is working, the brain is working, the hand is working, the tongue is working. But the business of the tongue and business of the leg is different. The aim being, the central point being Kṛṣṇa, to help, to serve Him, then everything is work, absolute. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand it. They think that "Kṛṣṇa is working like ordinary man. How He can become God? It is māyā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is also māyā." Therefore we called them Māyāvādī.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Hṛdayānanda: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.

Satsvarūpa: This is all very new.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.

Prabhupāda: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?

Satsvarūpa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though.

Prabhupāda: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.

Satsvarūpa: Then it becomes easy.

Prabhupāda: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Viṣṇujana: Preliminary.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work?

Viṣṇujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method-varṇāśrama.

Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you've made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Morning Walk 'Varnasrama College' -- March 14, 1974, Vrndavana:

Viṣṇujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Viṣṇujana: That's most auspicious.

Prabhupāda: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain.

Viṣṇujana: For example, in my program...

Prabhupāda: Budhaḥ. Budhaḥ. Eh? Yes?

Viṣṇujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacārīs in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books?

Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Kṛṣṇa (break) ...in separate department.

Passer-by: Rādhe, Rādhe!

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Rādhe, Rādhe."

Morning Walk -- March 15, 1974, Vrndavana:

Madhudviṣa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: (laughing) What these communists can do? We can do better than them. We can kill many communists like that. (laughter) Then it will be counteraction of communist movement. And you think like that. "Why you are sitting idly, no employment? Come on to the field! Take this plow! Take this bull. Go on working. Why you are sitting idly?" This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Nobody should be allowed to sit down and sleep. They must find out some employment, either work as brāhmaṇa or as a kṣatriya or as a vaiśya. Why there should be unemployment? The same example. Just like I am, this body is working. The leg is working, hand is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why there should be unemployment? You just stop this unemployment, you will see the whole world is peaceful. There is no complaint. And they'll very happily chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Hm? Nobody's working in this field. They're all drawn to the cities to work in the factory. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?

Devotees: Hammer and sickle.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is good.

Morning Walk -- March 30, 1974, Bombay:

Dr. Patel: How? Tell me. Explain.

Prabhupāda: No, no. How you can know? You take it; because you do not know, you take it from me.

Dr. Patel: But I, I, I can't take it without you explain me. How I take it? Tell me.

Prabhupāda: That brain will require three hundred years. Your brain having developed, then you will understand.

Dr. Patel: I have developed, brain is already developed fifty... (break)

Prabhupāda: (angrily) No, you said immediately What is the use of offering Nārāyaṇa in the temple..."

Dr. Patel: I did not say that!

Prabhupāda: Yes, you said.

Dr. Patel: I did... No, you have misunderstood! I said... I won't submit to wrong things. I will submit to right thing!

Prabhupāda: No, no. And that... But you do not know what is right thing. That is your fault.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Indian Man (1): It's not like that. The material thing we can see from our...

Prabhupāda: You are material, not spiritual. You are a material fool. Why do you interpret foolishly?

Indian Man (1): There's no doubt about it.

Indian Man (2): According to their brain and knowledge, they must have...

Prabhupāda: That means rubbish brain, rubbish brain. You go, interpret and change the law. You go in the law court and you interpret in your own way. Can you interpret in the law court? "Sir, I have got a different interpretation." "Get out. Get out, rascal, from this..."

Indian Man (1): No, no. Even the judges in the Supreme Court in India, they go after the interpretations, they go and they become also one with the...

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is extraordinarily. When the meaning of the law is not very clear, that takes place. But when the thing is very clear, there is no question of interpretation.

Indian Man (1): Why there is a fight? Because both the things, both the lawyers, they take it in different way and so they come to the judge.

Prabhupāda: That's right. But it is not different in such a way that you call a spectacle a something else.

Indian Man (4): Bhagavad-gītā is really...

Prabhupāda: Yes, but it said in the Bhagavad-gītā clearly, it is said clearly, imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān: "I told this philosophy to Vivasvān." Where is the difficulty to understand? Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā yuyutsavaḥ: (BG 1.1) "In the dharma-kṣetre, kuru-kṣetre, two parties willing to fight, they assembled." Where is the difficulty to understand? Why these rascals should interpret in a different way?

Indian Man (1): These are all... They are not interpreting that particular word.

Prabhupāda: They are doing.

Morning Walk -- April 11, 1974, Bombay:

Indian Man (1): These are all... They are not interpreting that particular word.

Prabhupāda: They are doing.

Yaśomatīnandana: There is nothing like Kurukṣetra, they say.

Indian man (4): That is another group of people, their own brain creation. That we should not...

Prabhupāda: What right you have got to interpret?

Indian Man (1): Whatever it is they are saying, but the real thing we should not interpret and we cannot.

Prabhupāda: But you are, after all, material. You are not spiritual. In order to get you on the spiritual platform, things are being spoken by Kṛṣṇa.

Indian Man (4): And to understand something we must have...

Prabhupāda: How you become all of a sudden spiritual? What is that spiritual? You do not understand what is spiritual, and you say, "It is spiritual."

Indian Man (1): Well, something which we cannot see by our own eyes, something which we cannot...

Prabhupāda: Then why do you interpret if you cannot see with your own eyes? You are blind. Why should you interpret? A blind man is interpreting? What is this nonsense? The blind man is just, "Oh, the elephant is big pillar."

Morning Walk -- April 12, 1974, Bombay:

Indian Man (2): Selfless class.

Prabhupāda: Ah. Advanced in knowledge, who can teach other people nicely. And they can guide. There must be. That brāhmaṇa means spiritual guidance, kṣatriya means material guidance. So these things are necessity. But where are those brāhmaṇas and kṣatriyas? They are training everyone śūdra. Work hard like hogs and dogs and fill up your hungry belly. That's all. This is the modern civilization. (break) ...Kali-yuga's symptoms: dakṣyam udaraṁ bharitaḥ. One man is supposed to be very expert who has learned how to fill up his belly. That's all. No other knowledge is required. Whether you have sumptuously put foodstuff within your belly. And then it is... You are very expert person. (break) ...saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ (SB 11.5.32). That is mentioned in the śāstra, that those who have got good brain, in this age they will perform this yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtanaiḥ prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ. Sumedhasaḥ. Others they will bother with so many things, but this yajña should be introduced, and people should be engaged in performing this yajña. Then everything will be all right. (break) Yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ (BG 3.14). Annād bhavanti bhūtāni. This is the process. If you don't perform yajña, there will be no sufficient rain, and if there is no sufficient rain, there is no sufficient food products. And if there is no food products, then how you will...? Simply by political agitation you will be happy? And that has happened. There is no food. Simply talks, in the assembly, in the conference, in the meeting. But there is no food. Food is selling at four rupees a kilo. Where is yajña? (break) "...need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of yajña," or "Kick aside all these things. Simply make śūdras." Now, how you will be happy? There is no food, there is no cloth, there is no shelter. That's all.

Morning Walk -- April 20, 1974, Hyderabad:

Nitāi: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

Prabhupāda: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that śūdra also.

Nitāi: He can remain in the factory.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brāhmaṇa. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, śūdra is as important as the brāhmaṇa, provided he helps the movement, Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a śūdra should be working as a brāhmaṇa, no. But everyone should be engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is required.

Nitāi: So in that case he is a śūdra, and he is also doing the work of a...

Prabhupāda: Then he is not a śūdra. One who is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, he is neither brāhmaṇa nor śūdra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20). Brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). Apparently he looks like śūdra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. Therefore anyone who takes, "Oh, here is an American Vaiṣṇava, here is an Indian Vaiṣṇava," that is nārakī. He is Vaiṣṇava. That understanding required.

Room Conversation with Richard Webster, chairman, Societa Filosofica Italiana -- May 24, 1974, Rome:

Richard Webster: Well, I don't call it sense gratification. To me there's no gratification in city life.

Atreya Ṛṣi: That's because you're wise.

Prabhupāda: On the whole, as I began, that there is no guiding men. The brain is lacking.

Richard Webster: Well, perhaps I should go now. I've taken too much time. Excuse me. Thank you very much and...

Prabhupāda: Give him some... Give him some... Just wait.

Yogeśvara: It's our custom in Vedic tradition that anyone who comes is offered graciously foodstuffs...

Richard Webster: Oh, thank you, yes, I've been here quite long. Thank you.

Yogeśvara: Maybe you can stay just for a moment.

Richard Webster: Yes, thank you.

Prabhupāda: Gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. In the Vedic civilization even an enemy comes to your home, he should be offered respect. Take more. Now, these foodstuffs are meant for human being. They are not meant for cats and dogs. You should produce more of this foodstuff. And the remaining balance, the skin, you can offer to the animal. They will eat. You take the substance, and the outward, external skin you offer to the animals, and he will eat. She gives you milk. This is cooperation. You produce... Man can produce fruits and flowers, grains, take the substance, and the rejected portion give to the animal. She gives you milk. You require milk. This is cooperation.

Morning Walk -- May 27, 1974, Rome:

Bhagavān: We can make our own cloth? Khādi.

Prabhupāda: Yes, cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth.

Dhanañjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth. Without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil's workshop.

Bhagavān: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becoming...

Prabhupāda: Anyone who hasn't got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple?

Dhanañjaya: This is Mary, the...

Yogeśvara: The Virgin Mary.

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Prabhupāda: And the water is also going out?

Dhanañjaya: Somewhere, yes. It is being circulated. So therefore there must be two kinds of intelligence: intelligence which is being generated by the brain, and intelligence coming from the supersoul.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Dhanañjaya: So everyone in the material world is caught up with the intelligence generated by the brain.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because they are bahir-artha-māninaḥ, they are thinking that this is all. A group of men is coming, and they are exploiting the resources, material world. Just like this building. It is nothing but exploiting the resources. Making brick from the earth or stone or iron. And they pile up. Just like the children goes to the beach, they pile up the sand, and they imagine that somebody is making big palace, somebody is...

Dhanañjaya: Big castle.

Prabhupāda: Big castle. And at a time they left. In the Roman, the... Formerly, the Romans, they also came. They also constructed big, big buildings. Now they are rotting, and another generation, they also are creating the same thing. But exactly like the children, after playing, they are going. Nobody knows where they have gone. Similarly, these rascals, they are coming. They have got the human intelligence. Simply spoiling that intelligence in amassing the external resources of material nature, and they leave the platform, and again go away and take the birth of some other form of life. Everything forgotten just like dream. This is going on. They cannot understand it has no value.

Morning Walk -- May 29, 1974, Rome:

Dhanañjaya: And the futuristic plans for the cities have... They are going to enclose the cities in big domes made of plastic. And all the roads instead of being on the ground, they will be in the sky too. And they will have aerial roadways.

Prabhupāda: Means idle brain, devil's workshop. They are thinking, "In this way we shall be happy." Then they will plan another thing, another thing, and everything will be broken. It is same childish play like that.

Dhanañjaya: But these things must have been done before.

Prabhupāda: That is going on. Therefore it is called punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām: (SB 7.5.30) "chewing the chewed." That's all. You know the sugarcane. You chew it and throw it, and again another man comes to chew it again. This is going on. They do not have the sense... Even in this Rome city, they see that "Big, big buildings were constructed by our previous forefathers and they are now lying, now simply relics. So this will be also relics. So what we are doing actually?" But they have no sense. Another relic. And other generation come; they will make another relic. This is called punaḥ punaḥ, again and again chewing the chewed. That's all. They have no other brain to do something else, which is actually fact. They are seeing it, that this will be say, after two thousand years it will be all useless. So what actually we are doing?" They have no sense of what is actuality, what is reality, no spiritual knowledge. Therefore bahir-artha-māninaḥ, external something, some engagement, like children. They play with something; they do not know that "It has no future, it has no meaning, what we are doing." They do not know it. But they are very busy. So this is all childish, ignorance.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: My organization is in fact concerned with the well being of all four classes. It is not only with the laboring man. It's also primarily with the producers, but also with the managers, leaders, and to a certain extent also with the protective classes in that we are interested in the well-being of policemen, hospital personnel, doctors, nurses, that kind of social security workers, and that kind of person. We are interested in the intelligentsia in that they are professional workers, often independent, whose professional rights and obligations need to be safeguarded and codified. That's a standard laid down in the form of international labor standards. One of our activities, not perhaps now the most important, but one of the first.

Prabhupāda: No. My point was, point is that... Because one is fourth-class, therefore we are not interested in that—it is not my point. My point is that there are four classes of men: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. And our point of view, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is meant for taking care of all classes of men. Although by natural division there are four classes of men, first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, but the example we generally give, just like in your body there are four divisions: the head division, the arm division, the belly division and the leg division, but all of them meant for keeping the body fit. And body is meant for giving supply to everyone of them. But if you comparatively make division, the head comes the first division, the arms comes the second division, the belly comes the third division, and the legs comes the fourth division. So we should organize in such a way that all the classes of men in the society be happy, not that we simply take care of the head. The same example: In your body it is not your business just simply take care of the head or the legs. No. All these different divisions of your body, you take care. That is healthy body. When your brain is working nicely, when your arms are working nicely, your abdomen is working nicely and legs are working nicely, then you are fit. If you simply take care of the legs, not of the brain, that is not a good healthy body.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Well, I think that the International Labor Organization is devoted to the reduction of inequalities between the different classes of men with a view to getting them all a better share of the good things of life, and by that, they may begin to reach a greater degree of human happiness, as they understand it, as the people themselves understand it. It may be that they don't understand it well.

Prabhupāda: No. Nature's way is not better share, but equal share. Just like when you take foodstuff, put it in the stomach, and when it is easily digested and transformed into different secretion and comes to the heart and becomes blood, there is equal distribution. Not that because brain is first-class, therefore the blood transformation to the brain should go more. No. Then it will be blood pressure, high blood pressure. This is nature's way, that... But when the energy goes to the brain, it acts differently. When the energy goes to the hands, it acts differently. The electricity energy is the same, but sometimes by working on the dictaphone, sometimes on the microphone, sometimes in electric heater, sometimes in refrigerator... The different apparatuses are there, but the energy is the same, equal. In that sense, the communistic idea that whatever energy is there, whatever resources are there, they should be equally distributed, that is nature's way. From the body we can understand that when the foodstuff turns into secretion, it goes to the heart and becomes blood. The blood is transfused through different veins to different parts of the body, and you will find everybody is satisfied.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: I am not speaking of the food. I am speaking of the benefit. Benefit should be equally shared. Now, benefit means... Suppose you can eat more than me. You can eat, say, half a pound of foodstuff, or I can eat one pound, foodstuff. So to give me food, one pound, and to give you food, half pound, that is equal because I require so much. Similarly, the benefit must be equal, as far as you require, I require. Therefore we call it benefit. There is not, I mean to say discrimination in deriving the benefit out of the energy produced in the body. Then everything will be all right. And if the brain works nicely, if the arms work nicely, if the stomach works nicely and the legs work nicely, then you are healthy body. You can do everything very nicely.

C. Hennis: And then, in taking the analogy in terms of the world society, we have a society which is properly integrated and properly balanced. This is an idea which is by no means alien to the...

Prabhupāda: My original point was that if we take simply care of the fourth-class division of the society, do not take care of the first-class division of the society, then, in spite of taking care of the fourth-class society, it will not grow very nicely. Because the brain is not in order.

C. Hennis: Yes. I think that in fact my organization is really intimately concerned...

Prabhupāda: That was my point, that you are taking of the laborer class. That is just like the legs.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: I may say in this connection, in America, the laborer class is very highly paid. Anyone, any labor class man can earn $25, $50, daily, very easily. But because there is no direction of the brain, these labor class of men—I have seen—they—especially these Negroes—51%, they are drunkards. They spend their money in drinking. They do not know how to utilize the money. Because the brain is not giving direction. Or they have no brain. "I have got so money. How I shall utilize it?" As soon as he gets money, he use it, he uses it for drinking. You may think that you are sufficiently paying to the labor class, worker class, but because he is not guided by brain, he is misspending the money.

C. Hennis: We are interested in that, too. We are interested in that, too. We don't want to tell people how to spend their money. We think that this would be...

Prabhupāda: You haven't got to say. But because he hasn't got brain, because he is not guided by the brain, he will misspend and create disturbance in the society.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: You understand that?

C. Hennis: Yes. Well, of course it's only by a long term of general program of cultural improvement that you can hope to overcome that kind of problem. On the other hand, it would be, I think, wrong to argue from that experience that the provision of welfare benefits to all people who are destitute should be stopped, you see. It is true that...

Prabhupāda: No, we don't want to say that.

C. Hennis: It's true these are abused, but the fact that a good thing is abused doesn't turn it into a bad thing.

Prabhupāda: No that is not the point. Point is that everyone should be guided by the brain. Therefore the brain must be maintained. That is our point.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Well, as I said, to that extent we do try to improve a man's understanding, a man's understanding of the world, and I agree it's the developed world, the industrialized world, and the...

Prabhupāda: But if he has no brain, if he is not guided by the brain, or if he has no brain, so what is the understanding? Understanding is "I have got money. Now let me drink," that's all. There must be...

C. Hennis: First of all, you can't force a man to be governed by his brain either. You can't force a man to use his brains.

Prabhupāda: Therefore brain is... The United Nation, how the world society should keep a class of men who act as brain and guide everyone so that everyone becomes happy.

Yogeśvara: That is our movement.

C. Hennis: I think that that's a...

Prabhupāda: That is our movement.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Well, I suppose they are adopting the principle that you yourself advocated just now. You said that the proper society is one which is...

Prabhupāda: That means lacking brain, lacking brain, lacking brain.

C. Hennis: But the whole world apart from the human beings, the animal world is entirely composed of beings that eat one another. The only beings that are never eaten are whales and elephants. All the others are eaten by some bigger animal, and I suppose that the justification that they have for maintaining slaughterhouses is that it is just a cleaner way of killing than for a lion to jump on the back of an antelope.

Prabhupāda: What is that? What is the supposed...

C. Hennis: It's just a cleaner way of killing.

Yogeśvara: It is the natural order, that all animals... There are many species of animals that eat flesh, and that man is simply following the natural order.

Prabhupāda: Natural means, that means he should become animal. Like, he should imitate like the animal. That is man's progress, do you mean to say?

C. Hennis: Well, that's no doubt the rationale that they use.

Prabhupāda: I understand your point. That we also say, that any living entity has to live by eating another living entity. That is natural. Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. It is said in the Vedic literature that one living entity is the food for another living entity.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Just hear me. But when you come to the form of human being, you should have discrimination. If you have no discrimination, simply you live like animal, then where is the difference? My only point is the lack of brain. Human being, he has been given by nature... They are also life, the fruits, the vegetables, the food grains, the milk, the sugar, they have got enough food value, and the human being should be satisfied within this group. Why they should maintain slaughterhouse, and do not think that they are not sinful, and still they want to be happy without caring for God? That is lack of brain.

C. Hennis: My organization is not directly concerned with giving people brains.

Prabhupāda: No, your organization may not be directly concerned, but the human society, if it is brainless, however organization you may make, it will never become happy. That is my point.

C. Hennis: It is concerned with taking away the obstacles which prevent people from attaining brain.

Yogeśvara: This is the obstacle.

Prabhupāda: No.

C. Hennis: One of the obstacles is just plain poverty. One of the obstacles is overwork.

Prabhupāda: No, no. A human being should be considerate. Everyone has got religion. Either he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. There must be discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities. Human being should be engaged for pious activities, not for sinful activities. That is human society. If the human being does not discriminate what is pious activities and what is sinful activity, that means lack of brain. He has no brain. He is no better than the animals.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So such an important... And besides that, from moral point of view, you are drinking the milk of cow, and after that you are sending to the slaughterhouse. Do you like to send your mother to the slaughterhouse? And the bull is giving you, producing your food. Nowadays they have invented tractor or engaging sometimes horse. But in India still, the bulls are engaged for tilling the ground, the field, and produces. So from moral sense, the bull is producing your food and the cow is giving milk to you; therefore father and mother. Just like father produces food for the children and the mother gives the milk. So if the human society has not this simple brain of understanding, then where is brain?

C. Hennis: Of course, when you speak of the distinctions that are made between pious activities and sinful activities...

Prabhupāda: They have no such distinction. There is no such distinction.

C. Hennis: You have to establish first of all a...

Prabhupāda: No, it is already there. It is already there. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam (BG 18.44). Those who are interested in producing means of living, or foodstuff, in the society, say, the mercantile, the agriculturist, they should give protection to the cows. That is very essential, that milk is so important thing. If you get... Now, we have, in your western country, we have introduced such ideas in West Virginia. We have started one community project where we are keeping cows also. The cows are giving more milk than in other farm. They are so jubilant. Even up to eighty pounds milk, they are giving, because they know that "These people will not kill me." They know it. They are very happy. We don't kill their calves. In other farms, as soon as the calf is there, in front of the mother they are killed. You see? So if these things go on without any brain, without any intelligence, you may make hundreds of organization, the society will never be happy. This is our verdict.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

C. Hennis: Yes, but I don't think you can properly expect to indoctrinate people. I don't think that... At least, you can't expect an international organization to indoctrinate people on the national level. I'm sure that the...

Prabhupāda: No, it is not national. It should be international. Just like everyone... United Nation, it is meant for international activity. Our only proposition is that as the international organization, United Nations, they should keep a class of men who should act as brain. Then it will be all right. Without brain, simply legs and hands working, no direction, that is not very good.

C. Hennis: I think you'd have to see the secretariat of the United Nations and the United Nations family of organizations, not so much as leaders and bosses and generals, if you like, but rather as the servants of mankind. I don't go...

Prabhupāda: We can see provided we get the chance.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: No. If there is actual brain, there is no problem. Just like if I have got good brain... I want to take this thing in my pocket. But if I have got brain, "No, this will be stealing," then I can refrain from it. But if I think that "It is lying here. I can take," what is that?

C. Hennis: I think that your effort of philosophy and teaching must really be directed, in the present state of affairs where countries are organized in the form of national states, must really be directed to the national leaders of government, the people who exercise temporal and spiritual power in the various sovereign states. And the United Nations is a forum for these sovereign states. The International Labor Organization is a forum for the sovereign states on certain subjects related to labor...

Prabhupāda: No, whatever subject may be, our point is the same. You just try to understand. If... You can organize so many, but if there is lack of brain, the brain is not in order, then any amount of suborganization, organization, will never be successful. That is my point.

C. Hennis: Yes, but there some people are better endowed with brains than others. Some people haven't got brains or not much brains.

Yogeśvara: But at least the direction must have brains. That's the point.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The brain... This is the work of the first-class man, this is the work of the second-class man. Just like any organization, any office, "These are for these men, the class. These are meant for the superintendent. These are meant for..." Everywhere, there must be organization, not that everyone should work whimsically. No. There must be a managing board, managing director. He is giving direction. Under his direction, everyone is organized. So the United Nations, such a great. This was organized for the total benefit of the human society, but there is no department which is actually can be called the brain organization.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: That is my point.

C. Hennis: That's true. They're servants of the membership and the membership is the international..., of the states, of the world. And if the governments of the states of the world, if Mr. Giscard d'Estaing, Mr. Nixon and Mr. Wilson and all the others don't have brain, then I'm afraid that the United Nations can do nothing to give them brains. There has to be... We are only the servants of these people. What we try and do is let them get together and help them understand their problems.

Prabhupāda: Let them understand. At least, let them understand what they should do, what they should not do. This much...

C. Hennis: This we do try to do to the extent that it is possible for the secretariat to shape and evolve a philosophy. We do try to do it. But of course we can't adopt a completely radical approach. We do what we can in the manner of a good servant and the manner of a good steward to try and help the leaders along the right path and right direction. Your Divine Grace, I thank you very much indeed for this audience. It's been very kind of you.

Prabhupāda: I may be a madman. I have talked so many things and you say all right.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: What, his nonsense idea. From the result we see nobody is happy. What is this idea? They have big, big scientists, big, big politicians, big, big..., but where is it people are happy? They are simply fighting. Now, recently in Rome, Italy, the Communists and the Fascists fought, and six innocent person died. So where is the benefit of this United Nations? They do not have really brain. Manufacturing something, concocting something. That's all. Where is the brain? They have no discrimination between sinful activities and pious activities.

Yogeśvara: He admitted it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Any sane man will admit it. Cow is giving milk-mother. And bull is producing food—he is father. And they are being killed? Is that human society? How they can be happy? There is no possibility. Regularly they are maintaining slaughterhouse especially for the cows and bulls. Why don't you slaughter the dogs and hogs and eat if you are meat-eater? There are many meat-eaters who eat dogs. Dog is useless. You can eat. Hog is also useless. They are eating also dog and hog, everything, whatever they...

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: Now there was fight between two opposite nations. Now, within the nation, there are so many opposite parties, they are fighting. So instead of nationwide, it has become homely affairs, my home, your home, fighting. That's all. Although we belong to the same nation. So what is the improvement? Now, in Italy the Fascist party and the Communist party, they fought and so many people died. So this will increase, increasing, partyism. So where is the brain?

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So then the first point is to educate people who they are serving, they are working for.

Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all, there must be a class of men, ideal men, brain; people will follow them. My request is therefore that you should become ideal men. If we fight... Now there is fighting amongst ourself. That is very disappointment to me. The same politics, intrigues. The nature is so strong that brain becomes, what is called? Fag brain? Brain becomes deranged.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: I remember on a walk in Vṛndāvana, Your Divine Grace said that there should be no politics in our society because a Vaiṣṇava means one who wants to help others become happy.

Prabhupāda: Now politics is coming in. As soon as we are getting money, the politics coming. That is a great concern.

Room Conversation with Mr. C. Hennis of the International Labor Organization of the U.N. -- May 31, 1974, Geneva:

Yogeśvara: Yes, "I must leave."

Prabhupāda: Ah, "I must leave." When we come to real proposition, immediately they want to leave. This is their brain.

Yogeśvara: Every time a gentleman like that comes or a man like that comes and we get too close to the point about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they seem to become afraid.

Prabhupāda: No, as soon as we raise this question, killing, he became sorry. He has no answer. Therefore he wants to be out, evade. "Why Christians are killing?" Anyone I raise this question, immediately he becomes stopped, mum, dumb. That's all. Christian community, there are so many. Practically the majority of the human society, they are Christian. They are the persons who are indulging in killing. And where is Christian? Judging from the Ten Commandments, there is not a single Christian, not a single, and still, they are going, the Pope, the cardinal, the priest, the church. All simply show-bottles, that's all. There is no life. And therefore it is dwindling. Practically... Just like our Los Angeles was Christian Church. Nobody was coming. Therefore it was sold. And now there is no place to accommodate devotees. Life is lost in Christian religion. Nobody is interested, no more. And within a few years, it will be lost. It is lost in... I have seen in England. Nobody is going to church. All churches are being closed. How long you will cheat? What is that?

Yogeśvara: Juice.

Room Conversation with Prof. Regamay, Professor of Sanskrit at the University of Lausanne -- June 4, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So it doesn't require that in every Veda there should be, because the Upaniṣads, they are impersonal study, negation of the material existence. That is negation. There is no positivity. So when you come to the positivity, then you can understand Kṛṣṇa.

goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya

devī-maheśa-hari-dhāmasu teṣu teṣu

te te prabhāva-nicayā vihitāś ca yena

govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

(Bs. 5.43)

So you cannot understand the goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya, the Goloka-nāmni planet, where it is. We do not know where is or how many planets are in this material world. (break) ...seeing very, very distant, ninety-three million miles away. But we have got little heat and light, we are satisfied. You see. But if you have got the capacity to run on..., just like they are trying to go to the moon planet, go to the sun planet... Actually it is a fact, this planet is in your front. Where can you go? Why? Why is it impossible to go? It is material. So you cannot go even the material planets, what to speak of the spiritual planets. So for them, this, this much knowledge, "Sunshine is light." That's all. Nothing more. They cannot understand with their poor brain.

Prof. Regamay: But I am struck that, for instance, for us in the West the idea of personal God is strongly rooted in our consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava. He directly gave you the idea of personal God. The personal God is the origin. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate (SB 1.2.11). The... Just like, the same example: the sun god, the sun planet and sunshine, they are one. They are not different. But still, this is impersonal, that is localized, and within the sun globe, there is the sun god. So sun god is the origin of this light. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the origin of everything. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam (BG 10.8). That's the fact. But people with poor fund of knowledge they cannot understand it. Therefore stop... (break) ...light, that's all. So much. Just like Lord Buddha. He did not explain anything about God. He said, "Just obey me and stop this animal killing." Therefore this much sufficient for him, that's all. The lower class students, one plus two equal to three, two plus two..., that much mathematics, not higher mathematics. Higher mathematics is not possible to understand.

Room Conversation -- June 5, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: So the Vedic conception is that the human society should be divided into four divisions, namely the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra, natural division. One section of the human society should work as the brain. Another section should work just like the arms, another section, like the belly, another section, like the leg. These four divisions are essential. That is also mentioned, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). Find out this verse.

Yogeśvara: (French)

Prabhupāda: Page?

Nitāi: 235.

Yogeśvara: You have it?

Nitāi: You want to read it?

Yogeśvara:

cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māṁ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

(BG 4.13)

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (translates)

Prabhupāda: Just like by nature there are four division in the body—the brain, the arm, the belly, and..., all of them required... You cannot reject any one of them. Then it is not fullness. But the brain should be the, I mean to say, prime director, managing director. So the qualification of brāhmaṇas are stated. Śamo damas titikṣā? Eh? So at the present moment the society has no brain because there is no person, no person who is qualified like that, samo damas titikṣā.

Morning Walk -- June 6, 1974, Geneva:

Prabhupāda: And what is this?

Yogeśvara: He's naked, though.

Satsvarūpa: That's some goddess of music with a harp. (pause) (break)

Prabhupāda: ...brain, they have created something, but it will be used for sinful activities: drinking wine, meat-eating and sex. Not for chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Duṣkṛtina. They use their brain, but for sinful activities. This is duṣkṛtina.

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: There's the verse in the Second Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā that what is night for the materialistic man is the time of awakening for the introspective sage.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Guru-gaurāṅga: These scientists, Śrīla Prabhupāda, they say that their research is neutral, and it is not their fault that the use of their discoveries is detrimental. Like that man yesterday, he said, "It is not my bomb."

Prabhupāda: Oh, then whose bomb?

Yogeśvara: Well, their point is, like, for example, Albert Einstein. His idea wasn't to create the atomic bomb, but with his theories, the government agencies had men produce the bomb. So they're saying: "Why should you blame us for all the chaos and havoc? All we're doing is simply researching nature."

Prabhupāda: This is child?

Satsvarūpa: He has got animal hoofs, though.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Satsvarūpa: From the waist down, he's an animal. He has hoofs instead of feet.

Yogeśvara: What are they called?

Satsvarūpa: Centaur?

Yogeśvara: Centaur, centaur.

Satsvarūpa: That's in the Greek... (break)

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: ...if they give up the four sinful activities, then they might be able to understand the Vedic philosophy. So does this imply...?

Prabhupāda: Not Vedic philosophy. They will understand God.

Morning Walk -- June 8, 1974, Geneva:

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: So if they have information that this is not the only life, then won't they automatically become more austere?

Prabhupāda: Yes. (indistinct) consider what kind of life I'm going to get. (indistinct) They have made their own rascal philosophy that there is no life after death. Although they're experiencing that I am changing my body in this duration of life. I know that I have a child's body, child's body. That body's finished. Still I'm existing. So why I shall not exist after this body's finished? Where is the logic? Where is the... The simple logic they cannot understand. So dull brain. And they're advanced in civilization, big, big professor, big, big Indologist, this logic. The simple reason they cannot understand. What did they say? You have talked to many men about this logic?

Guru-gaurāṅga: About life after death?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: They say it doesn't go beyond... They have to agree that the baby's body is gone and the young man's body is gone. They have to agree. But they say that that doesn't mean logically that I have to take another body.

Prabhupāda: What is the other logic? If you have changed your body so many times, why not change this body? What is your reason? Natural course it should be that I have changed so many bodies so this body I shall change. This is natural logic. And what is his logic?

Satsvarūpa: So he said... They say it may be or it may not be.

Prabhupāda: But that is your rascaldom. But this is the real logic.

Morning Walk -- June 10, 1974, Paris:

Devotee (2): To drink.

Prabhupāda: Yes, at the last stage. When he was asking for water, they have given horse urine. He died like that. (break) Now he has gone to hell, America is there. Just see. Just see the position of regency. The Nixon, when he was in the office, oh, he was a big man, he was a responsible man. Now he is kicked out, he is begging, and America is going on. Where is the need of this responsibility? For several months he was asked that "You give up your responsibility." The rascal will not do. "No, without me, America will go to hell." Just see. This is responsibility.

Yogeśvara: All of these big politicians, they seem to fall very ill afterwards.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Yogeśvara: They seem to become very sick. Nixon is also ill.

Prabhupāda: Not only sick, they die very soon.

Yogeśvara: Radhakrishnan was paralyzed?

Prabhupāda: Yes, brain paralyzed. (end)

Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11, 1974, Paris:

Prabhupāda: This is definition of the first-class man.

Yogeśvara: Do you want me to translate?

Pṛthu-putra: (translates)

Prabhupāda: With all these qualifications, one can become first-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class...

Bhagavān: (correcting translator): "These people should be..." Prabhupāda said: "These people."

Pṛthu-putra: (corrects translation)

Prabhupāda: A class of men, first-class men...

Yogeśvara: He says "We say, 'They should be,' " which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation.

Prabhupāda: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is..., Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first-class men, to lead the human society. Then next class... The head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator.

Room Conversation with Professor Oliver La Combe Director of the Sorbonne University -- June 14, 1974, Paris:

Nitāi: "Because material energy, nature, is so powerful, it can resist the unauthorized plans of the atheists and baffle the knowledge of the planning commissions. The atheistic planmakers are described herein by the word duṣkṛtina, or miscreant. Kṛtina means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheistic planmaker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic planmaker is called duṣkṛtina, which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected. In the Gītā it is clearly mentioned that material energy works fully under the direction..."

Prabhupāda: Just like in Paris, these nice buildings, nice parks, nice everything—they require brain. There is no doubt about it. But they have been used for woman and wine. That's all. That is their... He have come. People come to see Paris just for that... What is that theater?

Bhagavān: Folies Bergere.

Prabhupāda: Yes. And we have heard from our childhood that Paris is a place where people can go and enjoy prostitution. When we were children. I told you last night. So this city is undoubtedly constructed with good merit, but it is used for sinful act... Nobody goes to... Beautiful church, nobody goes there. But beautiful, that theater, because there is naked dance, everyone goes. And therefore duṣkṛtina. Church is vacant. Only the tourists come to see the churches. Not that such a important city, always glorification of Lord is going on. Just like we are trying to do. Take prasādam, worship the Deity, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. That would have been the activities of these beautiful churches, but there is no such activity, because people are duṣkṛtina. They have got merit, to construct very nice wonderful buildings, but it is meant for sinful activities: illicit sex, intoxication, gambling and so on. And poor women, they are victimized by these rascals. That's all. Then.

Room Conversation with devotees about Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga, and Conversation with Guest -- June 15, 1974, Paris:

Yogeśvara: Now, one thing is that we accept Buddha as incarnation of Kṛṣṇa on reference from Vedas, but Buddha denied the value of the Vedas.

Prabhupāda: That is... When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualifications. Sada... Nindasi. Nindasi yajña-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended... Some of the sacrifices or all of them... So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating. Just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brāhmaṇa, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, "Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas." Just like these rascals, Christian: "Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse." Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish. Therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. This is their brain.

Morning Walk -- June 19, 1974, Germany:

Satsvarūpa: Not thinking, "Oh, when will I go to Kṛṣṇaloka?"

Prabhupāda: No, it doesn't matter. You give him good advice. Just like a canvasser. He canvasses for selling some books or some... If does not sell, he is not a culprit. He has done his job. That is recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Devotee does not make any bargain with Kṛṣṇa that "Kṛṣṇa will give me this benefit; therefore I have become pure devotee." That is not devotee. Prahlāda Mahā... He is a merchant, "You give me this price. I will deliver this clothing." That is not devotion. Āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu māṁ marma-hatāṁ karotu vā: (CC Antya 20.47) "Any condition, I am your slave. Whatever You like, you can do with me." That is the sign, not that "If it is favorable to my idea, then I accept You." That is not devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam (Brs. 1.1.11), no desire. Only desire: "Please accept me as Your eternal servant again." Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura sings, mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā: "Now, if You like, You can kill me; if You like, You can keep me. Whatever You like, I am prepared." Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. That is surrender. (break) Similarly, if we live on the nature's way, there is no problem. The extra brain and intelligence which we have from the lower animals, we are utilizing for the same purpose, the animal life. That lady was saying, "Now we are advanced, so..." (car comes by) It is our car?

Haṁsadūta: No.

Prabhupāda: There is a camp. (break) We can return now. (end)

Morning Walk -- June 20, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: They cannot believe it. They have no so brain.

Satsvarūpa: They say, "Well, that's the way you think in the East. It is very interesting."

Prabhupāda: And why don't you think? That means you are fool. You cannot think, just like dog cannot think. So you are equal to dog. Tell them like that. It is not the question of East and West. It is the question of understanding. In the East also there are many rascals, and in the West there are many intelligent. If it is the East and West question, how the Western boys and girls taking this philosophy? It is not the East and West. It is the question of the rascal and intelligent. One who is intelligent, either he is East and West, he can understand. And one is a rascal, either he is East and West, he cannot understand. This is the real problem. Just like this cemetery. What is the use of keeping this cemetery, occupying unnecessarily so much land? And they are worshiping. They will not go to worship Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, but they will worship stone, bhūtejya, offer flower, kneel down. And where the man has gone, he does not know. Bhūtejya. And we saw in the Geneva. A big plot of land is occupied.

Morning Walk -- June 21, 1974, Germany:

Prabhupāda: No, that is required.

Professor Durckheim: ...but they don't enter into the meaning. They interpret it just along their small brains because they haven't got the experience.

Haṁsadūta: Do you want to go this way around, Prabhupāda, or just walk straight on?

Prabhupāda: No, straight. Car is there?

Haṁsadūta: Yeah, car is there, following us. (break)

Prabhupāda: Artificially they live in the city.

Professor Durckheim: Yes, there are now millions and millions of children who never have seen a cow, never seen a horse.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Professor Durckheim: They go and stand at the zoo to see an animal. Yes, It's true. And I have just now in my center the visit of six Americans from Chicago who have their psychological center, and they wanted to know what we do, and they told me. They have a special little area where children are taken to see one cow, you see, or one horse just to know what it is because they never see it, never see an animal.

Prabhupāda: Most unnatural life. City life, most unnatural.

Morning Walk -- June 22, 1974, Germany:

Satsvarūpa: The scientists are making artificial food; so they're not that worried.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, that is... That I say bolts and nuts. That artificial food means bolts and nuts. Somebody told me that they have manufactured artificial butter and by eating they were vomiting. They're vomiting. There is ample butter supply. Why these rascals are interested in manufacturing artificial butter to show their scientific brain? Just see how they are rascals. They can get, huh? Just like Kṛṣṇa was stealing His mother's butter and throwing it to the monkeys. Butter can be produced in that way, that everyone can eat sumptuously. No. "Kill the animals and artificial butter you eat and vomit." That's all. Just see their intelligence. And they are proud of their advanced civilization. The same example, that a man barking as a dog, people will go to see it by purchasing ticket. (German translation).

Prabhupāda: And they do not see the natural dog is barking. Artificial, they pay ten dollars ticket and see how a man is barking like a dog. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa. You, at least, introduce in your country: "Chant Christ's name and stop animal killing." This is from Bible. This is not that I am asking. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill, and glorify the name of God."

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: In Africa. In China, in Japan. Everywhere.

Reverend Powell: And now, how do you explain this? Why are people...? Why are...?

Prabhupāda: Because they are on the spiritual platform, they forget the material designation.

Reverend Powell: They're mostly young people, aren't they, or are they, you have all ages?

Prabhupāda: Yes, young, young people, they have got brain, (Reverend Powell laughs) receptive.

Reverend Powell: Yes, yes, rightly. And I might also inquire... I take it that you feel... Forgive me if I'm not using the right expression, but the caste system is written into the law of Godhead.

Prabhupāda: No, no. No, we have no caste system.

Reverend Powell: Well, I'm sorry. The brāhmaṇa, the śūdras and so on, per se.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is qualification. This is a division according to... Find out the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).

Reverend Powell: Your base there is in Bombay?

Prabhupāda: My birthplace is in Calcutta.

Room Conversation with Reverend Gordon Powell, Head of Scots Church -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Daffodils. Oh.

Reverend Powell: No, jonquils, aren't they?

Devotee: Jonquils.

Prabhupāda: Very... Just see how God's artistic brain.

Reverend Powell: Hmm. Yeah.

Prabhupāda: You can see God in everywhere. But one must be Kṛṣṇa conscious, God conscious. Then he'll see every moment, everywhere God, nothing but God.

Reverend Powell: Is this part of the God consciousness, that in everything is the God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything is made out of energy of God.

Satsvarūpa: Here are some sweetballs made out of milk and butter.

Prabhupāda: You can, you can pick up.

Reverend Powell: Made out of what?

Satsvarūpa: Mostly out of milk and butter.

Prabhupāda: Milk preparation.

Reverend Powell: Thank you. And, um,...

Prabhupāda: Yes, you can eat.

Reverend Powell: Now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Room Conversation -- June 28, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: That's all right. Yes. Formality, you should be respectful. Suppose your enemy—that is etiquette-comes in your room. But when he has come to your room, you should offer him respect: "Come on, come on. Sit down." That is etiquette. You know that "He's my enemy." That... The etiquette according to Vedic civilization: gṛhe śatrum api prāptaṁ viśvastam akuto-bhayam. Even your enemy comes at your home, you should treat with him in such a nice way that he'll forget that you are his enemy. Gṛhe śatrum... That was... Just like Jarāsandha and Bhīma. They, they wanted that "We want to fight with you..." (Break) Unless one of the kings died... (Break) ...a strong flavor, and it is continually, continues. So long it is alive, the flavor is there. So where is that art, where is that science? When you have... Where is that scientist amongst the human society? They are very much proud of their scientific advancement. Everything see, the flowers and leaves, so artistically, beautifully manufactured that simply by seeing them you'll feel pleased. How the man can manufacture it? And still, they are denying the existence of God and taking all the credit. How foolish they are. Mūḍha. (laughter) Yes. Yes, they have been described as mūḍha. Now, we are appreciating immediately Kṛṣṇa's craftsmanship, artistic sense, and we are glorifying. So that should be done by everyone. But the mūḍhas, they will not do that. They'll explain away. They'll never admit God's hand, intelligence, brain is there. They'll never admit. Neither they will explain how it is. They know it, how it is done. It has been done, or it is being done by somebody. That they do not know, who is that somebody. And when we say it is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa says, "It is I am," they'll not agree. This is their position. They do not know who is that somebody, and when we say, "Here is that somebody," they'll not believe it. This is mūḍha. Therefore it is said... The mūḍha cannot explain all... And at the same time, will not accept the real thing. That is mūḍha. Mūḍha means rascal. And they will set aside the thing, "Yes, scientifically we are searching. In future, we shall be able." And when that future will come? Past, present and future. The future will become past also. Just like tomorrow, 29th June, this is future. Now, day after tomorrow, it will be past. (laughter)

Morning Walk -- June 29, 1974, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: Sometimes a question is arisen that devotees are working hard to serve Kṛṣṇa, but sometimes they don't feel that they are working in love and devotion. They are doing the work, but sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Yes, in the beginning there is no love. Let him work on the direction of God's representative. (break) Therefore it has been warned, arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. The Deity of Viṣṇu, if one thinks, "This is made of stone; this is made of wood; this is made of metal," and spiritual master as ordinary human being, these are hellish considerations. Arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Guruṣu means the spiritual master. Nara-matiḥ, a ordinary human being. And vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ. And Vaiṣṇava, a devotee—"Oh, he is brāhmaṇa Vaiṣṇava. He is European Vaiṣṇava. He is this Vaiṣṇava, that..." No. These are forbidden. Vaiṣṇava is Vaiṣṇava. Spiritual master... They are all transcendental. In... of course, in this country you are introducing new, but in India... Just like we had been at Tirupati, Tirumala. Many thousands of people were coming, and their daily collection is not less than 100,000 rupees. And do you think these people are coming to offer these 100,000 rupees daily to a stone? And the ācāryas established this temple for bluffing these people? Does it mean, their collecting? They do not know the science, rascals. And therefore simply... Sinful life cannot help. Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). That is stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that "One who is killer of animal, he cannot understand the spiritual science." Vinā paśughnāt (SB 10.1.4). This is the statement. Paśughna means the animal killer. Therefore the first prohibition is stop this animal killing. Otherwise, this dull brain will not be able to understand. They are not fit for understanding. Mūḍha, mūḍha. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ (BG 7.15). Duṣkṛtina means always engaged in sinful activities. They have got brain but their brain is being utilized only for sinful activities, they are called duṣkṛtina. Kṛtī, kṛtī means good brain, and duṣkṛtī means brain is being utilized for sinful act. Therefore they are mūḍha. In spite of good brain, they are rascals, because brain is being utilized for sinful activities, how to set up up-to-date machinery for killing animals. Brain is being used for this purpose. Any animal can be killed with ordinary knife, but they're manufacturing latest machinery. Their brain, rascal brain is being used for that purpose. And what they will understand? They are preparing their road for going to hell. What they will understand about spiritual matters? Nature will not excuse. That is not possible. (break) That is sufficient for your being killed. Yes, sir. Wherefrom these laws come unless there is God's laws? Everyone will be killed. They are thinking that "We are not going to slaughterhouse to kill. They kill; we purchase." The Buddhist says like that.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Dr. Harrap: Well, you should... The advice is that you keep your general level of fats down, but of the fats that you take, you should increase the ratio between polyunsaturated and saturated. But there is quite a development of milk industry in parts of India. The complex near Annakadana(?), I think, is a very good example of this, isn't it, of the, I believe, the cooperative dairy complex.

Prabhupāda: No, practically also we see. Formerly big, big saintly person they used to live in the forest, and their livelihood was fruits and milk. They used to keep cows and draw milk from them, and whatever fruits are available in the forest, and they have given us these literatures, Vyāsadeva. So the... He has written Mahābhārata, one hundred thousand verses and similarly, this Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, he has given us eighteen thousand verses. And each verse is full of so grave meaning that if you study, it will take months and months together. So they developed such nice brain simply by drinking milk and fruits. Yes.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: Yes. So their work was going on. Their work was not suffering for want of this watch.

Dr. Muncing: I agree.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we have got good brain. Instead of utilizing the brain to know what is the active principles of this whole universe, if we utilize that brain for manufacturing a watch, that is not very good proposal. You manufacture watch, but at the same time, you try to study the active principle, who is the watchmaker. I am seeing the watch with the eyes, but as soon as the active principle is gone, no more seeing. Where is that science? A watchmaker is making, screw-driving, and doing so many things. All of a sudden his heart fails. No more watch. What is that active principle? Where is that science? That is my proposition.

Dr. Muncing: It wasn't the manufacturing aspect. It was the creative aspect that I was concerned with, that there is a creative faculty in man that can be used to benefit the rest of mankind. Isn't there a tendency...

Prabhupāda: Creative faculty... Therefore we first of all give stress, the creative faculty, that the watchmaker is doing nice work, but who has made that watchmaker? Who is that creative faculty? You are a scientist, you have good brain, but you cannot manufacture the brain. But who has manufactured your brain?

Guest (2): But isn't it the use to which the brain is put that is the...

Prabhupāda: If you are scientist, you create a similar brain like you. That you cannot do. But somebody has created your brain. And who is that person? Professor Einstein, big scientist, but he could not create another Professor Einstein so that after his death the work would continue. Because the brain creator, the brain of scientist created by somebody, that is not in your hand. You cannot create another similar brain. That is not possible. But if you are surprised with the mechanical arrangement of the small watch, why you should not study the mechanical arrangement of a great scientist? But as the mechanical arrangement of the watch is made by some brain, similarly, your brain or Professor Einstein's brain, that is also made by another scientist. And who is that scientist? We are glorifying the brain of the scientist but we are not glorifying the scientist who has made the brain of the scientist.

Room Conversation with Scientists -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Madhudviṣa: One thing that we would like to mention, as our spiritual master says, there is a definite, according to the Vedic scripture, there is a definite link between consumption of milk and development of fine brain tissues. And if your department of knowledge has some research in that area, we think it would be a great service to mankind if they can be informed how they can develop fine brain tissues. Fine brain tissues which are needed for coping with the problems of this day and age. Not that simply if I disagree with you we'll just fight. There has to be fine brain tissues in order to say, "Let us sit down and talk about this together." And we say, not we, but according to the scripture, there is a definite link between the consumption of milk products, not just milk, but cheese and all different milk products, the consumption of milk products and development of the necessary intellect. This is why, as our spiritual master said, the highly intelligent people of India have lived predominantly, not just drinking milk, but everything they ate was cooked in milk products. The vegetables, rice, even if rice was boiled, milk was put on, ghee was put on the rice. So that is like an unavoidable essential in their diet, not simply from the palatable standpoint, but actually from the relationship between the physical and the metaphysical progress.

Prabhupāda: And thousands of tons of ghee, clarified butter, was offered in the yajña. The smoke created a kind of cloud which is very good for cultivation.

Guest (2): Well, thank you...

Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end)

Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: But I know, all educated and advanced educated Englishmen, they were coming to Australia for good job. Therefore most of the technical posts, they are occupied by Indians in London. As soon as one is highly qualified medical man, he comes to Australia. So who will take care of them? So therefore they imported some brain from India. Anyway, our time should be saved for self-realization. That is perfect civilization. And not for creating unnecessary necessity of life. That will increase problem. So scientists, they disagreed or agreed with us?

Madhudviṣa: They did not want to get... They did not want to...

Prabhupāda: But they could not answer "Who is the manufacturer of the brain of the scientist?" That they could not.

Madhudviṣa: You have said in one of your tapes, "They want to start half way." Like they say, "All of a sudden there is an aeroplane, appeared in the sky." They do not trace out where that aeroplane is coming from. So similarly, they are interested in the problems of today, but they do not want to delve into the essential problem. They are talking about building nice houses, using this, that.

Room Conversation with Devotees -- July 2, 1974, Melbourne:

Prabhupāda: This is practical. The scientists have got good brain, but who manufactured the brain? You cannot do. You have not manufactured your brain. If you say, "By nature," then nature is more powerful than you. But nature is dead. It cannot create life. That is in the hand of Kṛṣṇa. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ (BG 15.7). As soon as the question of jīva, living entity, there, this, mine, you can say it is nature. And other things? Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarva... (BG 3.27). Prakṛti, nature, is doing. Everything explained. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā: (Bs. 5.44) "There is an energy which can create, maintain, and destroy the whole cosmic manifestation." Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā (Bs. 5.44), one. There is one energy. Chāyeva yasya vibharti bhuvanāni durgā: "That energy is working just like shadow under the direction of Kṛṣṇa." That is big energy, but that energy... Just like atomic energy, big energy, but it is done by a scientist, not that the ingredients automatically mix together and become an atomic... No. That is not possible. Big, big brain, scientist, they are dealing. Similarly this big energy-creation, maintenance, and destruction of nature—that nature is called Durgā. Durgā. Duḥ. Duḥ means difficult, and gā means going or to understand. To understand the laws of material nature is very difficult. That is called Durgā. Or Durgā means... Durgā means this is like a fort. We are kept within this, and the superintendent is Durgā. Therefore Durgā's picture is ten hands, ten directions with different kinds of weapon protecting. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni vibharti durgā, icchānu... (Bs. 5.44). Now the conclusion. Icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā: "She is working not independently, according to the desire of somebody else." Who is that somebody? Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **: "That is Govinda. I am worshiping Him." And this is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Prabhupāda: Ratha will not move. Then when we will get sanction, it will move. And for the sanction we must go on protesting. If you can take these steps, then do it. Otherwise, sleep. (break) ...with Haṁsadūta.

Bali Mardana: I can talk to him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Talk with clear brain. The idea is given. (break) ...be able to do it alone, or we shall go. Or even if he does not say, you go and all organize. It is very important thing. And things are going not right there, and you shall sleep here. That is not good.

Bali Mardana: So shall we also make protests?

Prabhupāda: No, first of all organize this. Then we shall protest.

Bali Mardana: Protest at the meeting.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Don't say about protesting now.

Bali Mardana: Now.

Prabhupāda: Take this, tactfully, that "All right, our ratha will not move. But this is our ceremony. The ratha will stand there."

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: We should not create a haven for rascals.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So how it will be done unless you GBC members become very strong and with good brain? Now, first of all save this situation. This is only solution, as I have suggested, that "The ratha must be there. We are not moving." And take lawyers. And the Deity will be moved. And we'll come to the ratha and go back. That's all. And we shall abide by all the rules. That's all. They saw it that in open sunshine thousands of people, ten thousands of people or more than that, fifteen thousand people, they stood on the Trafalgar Square for three hours. And they do not go to the church. So they must have seen there is something. Otherwise, how people taken so much interest. And there is, actually.

Morning Walk at Marine del Rey -- July 13, 1974, Los Angeles:

Satsvarūpa: The fathers?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Yes, I...

Prabhupāda: So you can hear that lecture, how it was. They appreciated so much. We have no disrespect for Christianity. (pause) At least, expose our so-called Indian ambassador and others... Approach them, that "Help us. What is this? What for you are here?" Even they do not allow by agitation, make the movement very important. Make profit this side or that side. That is businessman. The businessman makes profit when the price is going down and when the price is going up. They make their profit. That is businessman. Just like our Tripurāri, he goes on selling his book in any condition. He finds out some means how to sell in this condition. This is intelligence, how to deal in different circumstances and make profit. That is brain. And if you make condition, "If these conditions are there, then I can make business," that is foolishness.

Morning Walk at Marina del Rey -- July 14, 1974, Los Angeles:

Bali Mardana: Stout.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Bahulāśva: They have no brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa. That only comes from milk?

Prabhupāda: Milk?

Bahulāśva: To have a good brain for understanding Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Not eating so much.

Bahulāśva: Oh.

Bali Mardana: Some devotees think that if they eat large quantities of milk, the more they eat, the more their brain will become big.

Prabhupāda: No. That is rajasic.

Bali Mardana: Rajasic.

Prabhupāda: Especially for devotee, too much eating is very, very bad. Atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ (NOI 2). Too much eating is very bad.

Room Conversations -- September 11, 1974, Vrndavana:

Prabhupāda: To the qualified physician, not to the storekeeper. Similarly, first thing is, when you want to solve the problem, you must go to the right person. First of all you have to select. So we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the right person. So therefore, it is guaranteed. He knows everything. Others, they do not know. May know to some extent, not perfect. The first thing is that we have to select from whom. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). In Vedas it is stated in order to solve the problem or to understand the situation, you should go to the guru. So who can be better than Kṛṣṇa as guru? He taught, He gave lessons to Brahmā, the original living creature in this universe. Tene brahma hṛdā. He gave lessons to Brahmā how to create. Therefore, who can be better guru than Kṛṣṇa? Or even Brahmā. Brahmā, (indistinct) he has created this universe, but He taught Brahmā. And Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the supreme guru. To take instruction from Him or His pure representative, that is wanted. Otherwise, there will be trouble(?). You cannot compare any ordinary person with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is the original guru, instructor. You do not know about Kṛṣṇa, that is a different thing. But if you want to solve your problems, you must approach the guru. That is the Vedic instruction. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (MU 1.2.12). This verb is used when you must: no excuse, gacchet, vidhiliṅ. In Sanskrit there are different forms of verb. So when vidhiliṅ is used, that means you must. There is no question of alternative. You must. So Kṛṣṇa is the original guru. Tene brahma ādi-kavaye, ādi-kavi. Ādi-kavaye means ādi-kavi, the original learned scholar. How much brain he has that he has created this universe, Brahmā. He has created the demigods, he has created the planets, so who can (indistinct)? And he was instructed by Kṛṣṇa. So who can be a better guru than Him? And so far you are concerned, you cannot (indistinct). You have not solved any question.