Expressions researched:
"biologic"
|"biological"
|"biologically"
|"biologist"
|"biologize"
|"biology"
|"biology's"
|"biomedical"
Deluded by the three modes (goodness, passion and ignorance), the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.
The whole world is enchanted by the three modes of material nature. Those who are bewildered by these three modes cannot understand that transcendental to this material nature is the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa.
Every living entity under the influence of material nature has a particular type of body and a particular type of psychological and biological activities accordingly. There are four classes of men functioning in the three material modes of nature. Those who are purely in the mode of goodness are called brāhmaṇas. Those who are purely in the mode of passion are called kṣatriyas. Those who are in the modes of both passion and ignorance are called vaiśyas. Those who are completely in ignorance are called śūdras. And those who are less than that are animals or animal life. However, these designations are not permanent. I may either be a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or whatever-in any case, this life is temporary. But although life is temporary and we do not know what we are going to be in the next life, by the spell of this illusory energy we consider ourselves in terms of this bodily conception of life, and we thus think that we are American, Indian, Russian, or brāhmaṇa. Hindu, Muslim, etc. And if we become entangled with the modes of material nature, then we forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is behind all these modes. So Lord Kṛṣṇa says that living entities deluded by these three modes of nature do not understand that behind the material background is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The Russian astronomer also confirms that all the planets—which are estimated to be not less than one hundred million—are inhabited. In the Brahma-saṁhitā there is indication that in each and every one of the infinite number of universes there are infinite numbers of variegated planets.
The astronomer's view was seconded by Professor Vladimir Alpatov, a biologist, who maintained that some of the above-mentioned planets had reached a state of development corresponding to that of the earth.
Prabhupāda: I cannot follow.
Indian lady: (unintelligible)
Pradyumna: In college if they start to study biology or zoology, it involves killing animals, dissection. Is that a sin?
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. You cannot kill even an ant.
Indian lady: Then you could give up such study?
Prabhupāda: That is your business. What can I say? (laughter) But any kind of animal killing is sin, sinful. (break) Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-yoniṣu sambhavanti mūrtayo yāḥ, tāsāṁ mahad yonir brahma ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā (BG 14.4). Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the seed-giving father of all living entities in any form." Sarva-yoniṣu. Sarva means all, 8,400,000 species and forms. So Kṛṣṇa is the father, and all living entities are part and parcel of the Lord. They have different dresses according to different karma, but actually, every living entity is part and parcel of God, sons. So suppose a father has got ten sons and one of them or two of them are useless. So if the elder brother wants to make some experiment by killing the younger brother, would the father be pleased? No. Father will be sorry even the intelligent boy is killed or the dull boy is killed. For father, there is no such distinction. Similarly, you cannot kill animals without being sanctioned. That sanction is in the sacrifice. I have already explained, for testing. According to Vedic system, if you kill anybody, then you must be responsible for the sinful life. (end)
So unless there are first-class men, second-class men, at least third-class men, only fourth-class, fifth-class, sixth-class men, how they can conduct. That is not possible. Therefore it is enjoined that cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam (BG 4.13). This division of the society must be observed.
Educational institution, there should be, but the education.... Just like in a university, they have different departments: medical department, engineering department, or biological and so many, psychological, chemical, physical.... They have so many departments. But there is no department, brahminical, kshatriyacal, or vaiśya, nothing. Because they do not know what is the aim of life. They are simply interested with the bodily comforts of life. That's all. Never mind what is our next life, What kind of life we are going to. But that is, this is a fact.
Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye (SB 5.5.1). I have explained several times. This body, deha-bhājām... Everyone, the animals, they have got also a material body, and we human being, we have also this material body. Prahlāda Mahārāja also says, durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma. Durlabhaṁ mānuṣaṁ janma adhruvam arthadam.
What is the distinction between the animal body and the human body? Biologically.... Here is our friend Mr. Ghosh. He knows very well. There is no difference biologically between human body.... Medical students in the biological department, they study from the frogs, from guinea pigs, the human constitution of the body. There is no difference. But what is the difference? Not this bodily construction, but development of consciousness. That is the difference. So if we do not develop.... That is the opportunity, human life. In human life there is the opportunity to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
So what you will learn about that, by studying the human species? You study Kṛṣṇa. This is sufficient. There are 400,000 species of life. What will you benefit by studying? The botanist, the geologist, the biologist, they are doing that. Let them do that. You have to do, how to understand Kṛṣṇa. But you can simply know that there are so many different... That much, that is sufficient. What is the use of? Now, suppose I am using this microphone. What is the use of studying how it is manufactured? Why...? That's all right. It is already manufactured. Let me use it. That's all. Why should I waste my time, "How it is manufactured?" I am not going to be manufacturer of microphone. I am going to become servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all.
There are so many varieties of life. We have no information. There are so many universities, so many educational institutions, but they cannot say exactly how many varieties of life are there. They cannot say. Their education is not perfect. They cannot say. But we can see there are so many varieties of life, and each of them is a living entity. But if you consult Vedic literature, you'll find exactly the number. Just like in the Vedic literature you'll find jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi: "In the water the aquatic living beings are 900,000 different bodies." So I don't think there is any biologist or botanist who can say exactly how many forms of life are there within the water.
The nartho yaś ceha karmabhiḥ, this performance of yajña is a karma, prescribed duty. Yajña, dāna, tapaḥ, kriyā, yajña, performing yajña. But in this age, no other yajña can be performed perfectly. It is not possible. First deficiency is there is no yajnic brāhmaṇa. Formerly, the brāhmaṇas were so expert that by mantra they ignite fire, and they would test, putting one animal in the fire, they would take and make it again alive. That is the test of the mantra. By mantra, an animal, animal put into the fire, comes out again with rejuvenated life. People think that gomedha yajña, aśvamedha yajña are made for killing the animal. No. It was testing the mantra of the Vedas, whether actually being pronounced. That was the test. Just like in biological laboratory, the medical practitioner, they test with animals to observe the physiological and anatomical conditions. Similarly... But they cannot give life, they simply kill. But here in the Vedic yajña, the animal was put in the fire and it was again taken alive.
Material world means apaśyatām ātma-tattvam, one who has no enquiry or vision of the ātmā. Ātmā, paramātmā. Ātma-tattvam. Tattvam means "in truth." Ātmā means this body also. Ātmā means the mind also. Ātmā means the soul also. So in the present material world they are interested in understanding ātmā—the body. The medical science, physiology, biology, they are studying the science of the body. And some of them are studying the science of mind, psychology—thinking, feeling and willing. But nobody is studying the deepest meaning of ātmā: soul. There is no such... Throughout the whole world there are schools and colleges and universities to study the physiology, psychology, biology, sociology, so many things. But there is no university, school, college throughout the whole world to understand the soul. Is there any? Eh? You have come from all parts of the world. Is there any school, college or institute to study what is the soul? They have no information even. Even Russia is so proud of scientific advancement falsely, but they have also no... They are thinking that the body finished, everything is finished. That's all. This is going on. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape. Ātmā I have already explained. Ātmā means body, mind. But one who is thinking ātmā only this body, yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke (SB 10.84.13), in this bag of three elements, kapha-pitta-vāyu, he's go-kharaḥ, he's ass. He's rascal.
You are scientist, very good. You are botanist, you are physist, and so many, mathematist, and so on, so on. Because these things, laws are going on. People are studying the laws of mathematics, laws of physics, laws of chemistry, laws of botany, biology. Divide into different departmental scientific knowledge. So that, do that, very good. Become, very big scientist, very big botanist. Similarly, from other point of view, pious activities, you become very noble, a man of charity or tapasya or austerities, penance, so many things in the spiritual line, jñāna, yoga, karma. That's all right. As you deal with material science, you become big mathematician, chemist, physician, or lawyer, or so many, naturalist.
So we may be very intelligent scientifically or mathematically or physically, biologically. That's all right. But when we compare with the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa, it is less by two cubits. It is less. That we should always understand. Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat (BG 7.7). We have to accept this, that we cannot excel the intelligence of Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. I may show varieties of magic and declare myself Kṛṣṇa, or God. But still, you cannot show as perfectly magical arts as Kṛṣṇa is showing. That is not possible. If we understand this fact and realize it, then we can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Janma karma me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ (BG 4.9). We are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. There is little value like Kṛṣṇa. But we can never be equal with Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. Asamordhva. Nobody can be equal with Kṛṣṇa; nobody can be greater than Kṛṣṇa. Everyone is lower than Kṛṣṇa. So this intelligence is real intelligence, and if we think that equal to Kṛṣṇa or greater than Kṛṣṇa, that is all māyā.
So, who will protest? Or how you can say, "How this child can say like..." Yes. He can say, provided he has taken the lesson from the father. This is the way. So our teaching, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is perfect because we have taken the lesson from Kṛṣṇa. Just try to understand how perfect we are. We don't say anything as "I think," "maybe," "perhaps." No. We never say. We say definite. Definitive information. Just like they are speculating Darwin's theory of evolution. We have got perfect knowledge from the śāstras: jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. Now, we say there are 900,000 forms of life within the water. We have not gone within the water; neither as biologist we have studied. We have taken the perfect information from the perfect source. We say 900,000. This is called Vedic knowledge. This is perfect. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni sthāvarā lakṣa-viṁśati. This evolution theory is already mentioned.
There is no difference. From chemical point of view, from physical point of view, the same thing. Just like the biologist. They study the human body by dissecting, the frog's body. They say, the biologists say, that there is similarity of anatomical construction of the frogs and the human body. Anyway, we also accept that because, after all, it is this material body. So the arrangement in the frog's body and in the dog's body or in the human body it must be the same material. So then what is the advantage of this human body? That is instructed, ayaṁ deha: "This body, this particular type of body, human body, is not meant for the purpose, serving the cats and dogs." Nāyaṁ dehaḥ deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. Nṛloke means in the human society. Nṛ means human being. So human society, when you have got this nice body, you should not utilize this body for the same business as the cats and dogs and hogs are utilizing.
That is human life. The animal life means do..., "For my good, I will do harm to many others." That is animal life. So this is not life, the human life, that for our sense gratification, we are killing so many animals, we are doing so many mischievous things, we are cheating others. We can do that, but we are becoming more and more implicated. At the time of death the Yamarāja will come and take us to the hellish condition. Therefore foolish people they want to forget that there is next life. No, there is next life. We are discussing every day. Next life is there. We are every moment getting a different body. This is the scientific study. I do not know why they cannot understand. This is biology. Biology means we are, every moment we are getting a new body. This is biology.
These are the statements in the Vedic scriptures. Exactly stated: jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. It does not say ten hundred thousand; it says nine hundred thousand. Exact calculation. Now bring any biologist to calculate how many species are there in the water. They cannot say. But here, in the Padma Purāṇa, Vedic literature, you get exact information how many species of living entities are there within the water. Everyone knows that there are living entities, full of living entities. We are catching fish, but small fishes. We have not seen. Even if we have seen the biggest fish, that is, whale... Sometimes they are as big as one big ship. But there are other fishes, we get information, they are called timiṅgila. The big fish, the whale fish, and timiṅgila means there is another big fish which swallows this timiṅgila, this whale just like anything. These informations are there. And in Calcutta Museum, in our childhood—it may be still existing—we saw one skeleton of a fish that is bigger than this room, a skeleton. It is hanging on the ceiling. So there are very, very big, big fishes. Jalajā nava-lakṣāṇi. You get immediately information, without being a biologist, scientist, you can get information. The Darwin's theory, in most perfection, there is in the Padma Purāṇa: jīva-jatiṣu. The evolutionary theory is there. But Darwin is missing the real point: Who is, who is evolving? He's missing the spirit soul. He cannot explain.
"The paṇḍitāḥ, the learned man, he does not lament over the body, either living or dead." Because bodily platform is not the subject matter for understanding of philosophical research. Bodily platform is not very important. The spiritual platform is important, but nobody is discussing about spiritual platform. Everyone is, all the education centers, the universities, they are, I mean to say, busy studying chemistry, physics, and biology, mathematics. At most, little philosophy. That is also on mental speculation, theory. Somebody is giving some theory; somebody's giving (another) theory. But nobody discussing about the eternal spirit soul. That is the defect of this modern civilization.
oung man: Why are people dying?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Nobody wants to die.
Young man: I thought it was a biological...
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand. Who is here... That means biological force. You are subordinate to biology. Then why do you say that you are independent?
Young man: Well, I feel that I'm...
Prabhupāda: You are feeling wrongly. That is my point. That is your disease.
Young man: I'm feeling lonely?
Prabhupāda: Yes, wrongly.
Young man: Wrongly?
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are subordinate. You must have to bow down. When death is there, you cannot say, "Oh, I don't obey you." Therefore you are subordinate.
This is an Orient version of what may be the same tradition, suppressed in the West when the CIA took over religion in 313 A.D., (laughter and applause), when Constantine, Caesar, made a deal with the church to suppress all alien thoughts and heresies and to formulate a square Western version of heaven and hell. The Kali-yuga concept is one that you can, in a sense, interpret ecologically. If you've been following the scientifical pronouncements of doom possibility coming over television, radio, and slick magazines, as well as from the underground press, you will notice that there's increasing attention to the fact that our own fecal material, the waste products of our robots, have now so polluted Lake Erie that it's a great lake of green goo slime, biologically dead; that our atmosphere, the planetary atmosphere, is increasingly polluted with carbon wastes; and that we are so sunk in our attachment to automobile exhaust fumes, to sulphur wastes from great steel factories producing metals that can be sent flying to explode on the other side of the planet with the collaboration of the science faculties in such universities as this, (applause) so that we find ourselves increasingly sunk into what is called a materialistic habit, like a junky stuck on his junk.
In a conversation with Swami Bhaktivedanta today, I was inquiring more about the details of the mythology, which are found in a book called the Bhāgavata Purāṇa. He explained that according to Hindu analysis we are five thousand years into the descent from a lighter age, the age of brass, the disappearance of Lord Kṛṣṇa, an aspect of the Hindu Deity Viṣṇu, preserver, or perhaps the supreme form of the preserver aspect of the universe, of ourselves, or of Viṣṇu. The disappearance of Kṛṣṇa, mythologically or historically, is five thousand years ago. We're five thousand years into the age of iron, and we have ten thousand years in which to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, which is to say, repeating the name of the aspect of the preservation, hope, that particular vibration of dancing joy transcending our cosmopolitical words. We have ten thousand for that play before there is a total descent into one-foot-tall monsters who eat each other up for meat because all the vegetables have disappeared, because DDT has completely geared out any biological life form except mammals who go around eating each other at that point.
Prabhupāda: That, it will take some time. How do you know he's your father? Some gentleman comes. Your mother says, "He's your father." How do you know it?
Young woman: I have no proof?
Prabhupāda: Can you have any proof, that he's your father?
Young woman: I suppose there will be biological...
Prabhupāda: No. You are not born at that time. How can you know that he is your father? You have to take, accept, your mother's version. That's all. That is your authority. Your mother says, "This gentleman is your father." You have to accept it. There is no other way to understand.
Young woman: ...convenient to accept it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So you accept the authority. Then you know Kṛṣṇa, who is God, who is Kṛṣṇa.
Young woman: Then who is the authority?
Prabhupāda: Just like your mother is authority, similarly, there are authorities. This is the process. This is the process. If you want to know who is your father, you have to know it from your mother. There is no other alternative. Is it not a fact?
Young woman: I understand that.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Similarly, here are scriptures who are telling, speaking about God. If you have no faith in scripture, there is no other process to know God.
Young woman: I see. But I understand why I should have faith in my mother for biological reasons, and I don't see why I should have faith in...
Prabhupāda: But that is the rule. You may, biologically, may be different, crazy, but that is the rule.
Young woman: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Well that is the rule. How can you change the rule? You are female. You have got some specific rules. You have to follow. He's a man. He has got some specific rules he has to follow. This is the nature's law. How can you avoid it?
Young woman: Sorry?
Prabhupāda: How can you avoid it? You have certain feelings, propensities, as woman. How can you avoid it? So you cannot avoid the nature's law.
Just like the other day our chief guest, Dr. Atmaram, was speaking that by scientific advancement we are trying to give food to the needy and cloth to the naked. That's all right. But Kṛṣṇa is feeding unlimited number of living entities, beginning from the elephant down to the ant. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām. He is friend of everyone. As friend, He is sitting in the heart of all living entities. He is sitting in your heart, He is sitting in my heart, He is sitting in the ant's heart. The ant has also heart and the elephant has got also heart. Sometimes we find an insect exactly like a full stop. You have got experience. Sometimes when you open your book you find. They are called bookworm, they're very small, but it is moving. And because it is moving, from biological study we must conclude that it has got a heart. Even we do not know about biology, but Kṛṣṇa said that īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati (BG 18.61). So, therefore, there must be some heart. We cannot perceive. We cannot see even the whole figure of that insect, and what to speak of study what kind of heart it has got. But we understand Bhagavad-gītā..., from Bhagavad-gītā that there is heart even in the smallest insect, in the microscopic germ, there is heart. So He is sitting in everyone's heart and He is supplying the necessities of that smaller creature or the biggest creature. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām (BG 5.29).
Now, that source of energy wherefrom everything is emanating, now what is the actual position of that thing? Is it inanimate or animate? Just like some scientists explain the theory of creation, that "There was a chunk that was inanimate. From inanimate things animation has developed under certain conditions." That is not possible. We have no such experience that from inanimate things some animation has developed. Sometimes we see, it is called (Sanskrit?). Sometimes we see that from heaps of rice stocked, one scorpion is coming out. It does not mean that the inanimate rice has given birth to a scorpion. No. The actual fact is the scorpion lays down eggs within the rice, and by fermentation they develop, and then it comes out. So there are different types of emanation. That is biological subject matter. But here in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Vyāsadeva says that origin of the emanation of everything is sentient, conscious. He's not like matter, unconscious. Janmādy asya yataḥ 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ (SB 1.1.1).
Śyāmasundara: Does it, does the spirit, is it the divine idea being actualized by the evolution of history and social, biological and everything...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā, hetunānena kaunteya jagad viparivartate. Can you find out this verse, hetunānena, where is the Bhagavad-gītā?
Śyāmasundara: But if the truth is unfolding itself in history, in biology, in sociology...
Prabhupāda: Everything. Center is Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: So all events are leading toward what?
Prabhupāda: Then all, everything is emanating from Kṛṣṇa and after some manifestation, temporary, again going to Kṛṣṇa. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).
Prabhupāda: He has to admit that the theory of uncertainty is bogus, but everything is there, and that masking behind all these things there must be big brain. That one has to accept. Simply uncertainty, that is not a science. The certainty is that behind all these things there is a big brain. I do not know Him—that is a different thing—but there is a big brain.
Śyāmasundara: Darwin, he was not so much interested in those questions of origin and those things, but he was a botanist and a biologist, and he simply wanted to investigate how things evolved from one simple form to a more complex form...
Prabhupāda: That he cannot say, how the evolved. He captured something out of his imagination, but he cannot explain scientifically.
Śyāmasundara: From simple forms to more complex forms.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: But it's a new species of dog.
Karandhara: Well, they may call it a new species, but according to Vedic definition it isn't a new species.
Śyāmasundara: What did you just define by species? You mean different types of men, you say...
Prabhupāda: The species, definition of species according to biology is different. We say species means jāti, human race.
Śyāmasundara: So four hundred thousand species of humans.
Karandhara: Different levels of consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Different levels of consciousness.
Śyāmasundara: I see.
Karandhara: And within any species there can an infinite variety of variations of that one species. Just like...
Prabhupāda: Just like the scientists, their species is different. Just like we are making division that 400,000 different types of men. They will say this is one species.
Prabhupāda: To divert his attention. (indistinct) That is understanding, and nicer thing (indistinct), that is our formula, (indistinct). Actually, as one increases his Kṛṣṇa consciousness he becomes (indistinct) all this material (indistinct). That is the prime remedy-panacea for all diseases.
Devotee: This Freudian philosophy is an offshoot from Darwin philosophy. Freud also thinks that man is a biological organism only; therefore his biological functioning should measure up to certain norms of biological behavior. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong. If it does, then everything is all right. So he makes some animal behavior good and other animal behavior substandard, and you want to bring everybody to a certain standard of animal behavior. But he has no conception of spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct)
Śyāmasundara: We know he's a great fool, but we have to convince the students.
Prabhupāda: We have to convince them as I am convincing you. That is your business.
Hayagrīva: Any English literature, American literature, English literature?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Any... Some of the English literature, recognized.
Hayagrīva: Any of the sciences at all?
Prabhupāda: I don't think we require any science. What do you think?
Hayagrīva: Biology?
Kīrtanānanda: No.
Hayagrīva: Geology, zoology, astronomy.
Prabhupāda: Biology, you can teach them the evolution of the species from Padma-Purāṇa, 8,400,000's, one after another. Yes.
Hayagrīva: What about astronomy? Anything like that? No. Okay. Any animal husbandry they can learn out there. Animal husbandry they will learn...
Prabhupāda: That they will learn practically, cow keeping.
Mensa Member: But aren't desires biological in cause?
Dr. Weir: They're necessary.
Mensa Member: Yes, but they're biologically necessary rather than spiritually necessary.
Dr. Weir: Well, may I say, let's go farther, that when you say biologically necessary, is it necessary for you to be alive? What scientific...
Śyāmasundara: Prabhupāda has told us that even in the spiritual world there is desire to have the senses enjoy. Isn't that so?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Weir: But I think you need, I agree, I would say you need both. I want spiritual life, material life.
Mensa Member: (indistinct) spiritual thing, I mean, isn't it (indistinct) we're talking about China or New York (indistinct) about it, in fact it might even be a little (indistinct)
Dr. Weir: Well, I think to each person his picture is different too.
Śyāmasundara: The idea there is that in spiritual activity everything is seen in relationship to God and if you serve God with your every activity...
Prabhupāda: Yes. The same example, just like this finger is part and parcel of body. So long it is attached with the body there's not activities. You cut it from my body, there's no activity.
Prabhupāda: How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? (indistinct) Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. Jalajā nava-lakṣāni. Jalaja means species of living beings born in the water. There are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology?
Martin: I studied one.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Martin: I studied one.
Prabhupāda: One only?
Martin: One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the (indistinct), (loud crack of thunder in background) maybe a thousand.
Prabhupāda: Nine hundred thousand, exact number. (aside:) Bring that socket.
Karandhara: A group of, a group of people wanted that in school they should also teach that God created the earth and the people...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: Not just say that it was created by chance, random biology. But scientists objected, said: "We cannot say that God created the earth because then everyone will take us as fools." And they defeated the measure. The scientists said "Everyone knows. The earth is just created by biological chemistry. If we say that God created the earth, everyone will think us as fools."
Prabhupāda: The biology, chemistry, why don't you create? The biology and chemistry has advanced so much. Why don't you create? What is their answer?
Karandhara: In the future.
Prabhupāda: That is their foolishness. Why future? If it is already created, biology and chemistry, and you know the process, why don't you create it by chemistry, biology?
Brahmānanda: It's very wet.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I do not wish to come here. There is no facility for walking. Everywhere wet.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Ahh. This is wet also. Let's go this side.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere wet. There is a little space to walk. Biology, chemistry is the origin of life. So the chemistry, biology's so much advanced. Why they cannot create life? When the crucial point is touched, they say: "We shall do it in future." Why future? If it is already done at present, why future? What is this?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is... Small ones?
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: These are some small earth, mound of earth taken out from the inside to make room for oxygen for the plants to breath.
Prabhupāda: No, no. These are stools.
Prabhupāda: Ahhh.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say they'll be doing in the future.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Future, that is not science. Trust no future, however pleasant. This is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. Trust no future, however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense.
Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge.
Prabhupāda: That is also the future, in a different way. You have to accept that you do not know still what is the truth. You are expecting in future. That, that is the proof that your knowledge is imperfect. Why future?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because their present knowledge cannot...
Prabhupāda: It is, it is something like, giving post-dated check. I pay you one lakh of rupees, post-dated. Although I have no money,... What is the value of that check? Will anybody accept that check? "Oh, I have received the money." That is foolishness. Why future? You are talking of future, and you are talking of perfectness at present. What is this nonsense? You are claiming that your science is perfect, and, at the same time, when practical example wanted, you say; "I shall do it." The same example. I am saying I am millions, owner of millions of dollars. And you ask me: "Give me some payment." "Yes, I give you post-dated check." Will you accept? At present, if you give me five dollar, I see something tangible. And you're talking of big, big word, but you'll pay me in the future. So is it very sanguine proposal? And I am to accept it? So what kind of intelligent man I am also? You cannot produce even a grass by biological chemistry. You cannot do anything. Still you are claiming: "It is produced of chemistry, biology." What is this nonsense? Nobody questions?
Prabhupāda: So they are all thieves.
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So how we, a sane man can trust a thief? A sane man cannot trust a thief. There are so many things. They could not produce even a grass, even a small plant in the biology, chemistry laboratory, and still they're claiming it is product of biology, chemistry. What is this nonsenses. What kind of scientists there are?
Locana: We couldn't even choose when we were born.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Locana: We couldn't even choose being born here.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Locana: So where is the question of control?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is why, in the ultimate analysis, the geologists, mostly when they trace the origin of life, they say everything started from matter. Living matters came out from non-living matters.
Prabhupāda: Where it is coming now? It came in the past and not in the now, and not at present? Wherefrom an ant is coming from this dust. Is there any proof? Even an ant does not come.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In a few years.
Prabhupāda: What is that test tube?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the laboratory, the chemical laboratory, biological laboratory, so they'll take the combinations of the male and the female....
Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? It is taken from the living entities.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Then where is the test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in the womb. So that is not advancement.
Karandhara: The womb's already doing it very nicely.
Prabhupāda: Nicely. What is your credit?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want to, they want to be very proud that they'll be able to do it outside the womb.
Prabhupāda: But that's all right. At least you are not able to do it now. But where is the credit because it is already being done.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The... In the first time when learn about the difference between the living and the nonliving, this is one of the very popular questions when we start biology: What is the difference between living and the nonliving? So they answer there are several points to differentiate between the two. And they say the living can move and the nonliving cannot grow or cannot move.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And the living can reproduce like themselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The nonliving is not.
Prabhupāda: No. No.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they never talk about the soul, the nature of the soul, the consciousness existing within the living.
Prabhupāda: No, because there is consciousness, therefore the living being can create. Because I am conscious, I am thinking of marrying, begetting children. Because I am conscious. And because there is no consciousness, therefore this wood cannot think that he'll beget. The original consciousness, in the Vedas, it is said: eko bahu syām. God says: "I'll become many," so because there is consciousness, therefore He's saying that: "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no question of by-products. (Pause) Now they are supplying water to these green trees. Why they do not supply to that wood, and get it green?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're spoiling themselves, but, not only that, they want to spoil others also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is their business. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ (SB 7.5.31). (pause) Kṛṣṇa so easily simplifies the matter. They'll not accept it. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptir... (BG 2.13). In two lines, he solves the whole biological problems. In two lines. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. That is knowledge. And talking nonsense and no meaning. Books, volumes of books, talking nonsense and there is no meaning. Is that knowledge?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Ignorance.
Brahmānanda: Like the wolves, they bay: "Ohhh, ooow."
Prabhupāda: The frogs.
Brahmānanda: The frogs, croaking, yes.
Prabhupāda: Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh... That's all. They're thinking: "Oh, we're talking very nicely." The result is the snake, they find out here is a (unclear). Pop. Finish. So this ca ca canh, scientists, means when death comes, oh, everything's finished. That's all. All their ca ca canh, scientific investigation, finished. And he becomes a dog, cat and something like that. That's all. Therefore mūḍhāḥ. They do not know that "I have got this valuable life, human form of life, advanced intelligence. I'll have to take lesson from Kṛṣṇa, and make my life successful." They do not know that. Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh. And then die, and become again. When he dies, there is no question of science and talking nonsense. That is under the grip of nature. "Yes, come on. Enter this body. Finished." Just like the rascal rogue. He's very much proud of his strength. And the police comes arrest: "Come on. Enter this custody. Finished." It is like that.
Śyāmasundara: Mr. Tiwari is a well-known scientist. Biolo... Biologist? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Molecular biology? Krishna Tiwari: Yes. Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying at U. C..., University of California at Irvine. Krishna Tiwari: I don't know how famous, but... (laughs). Svarūpa Dāmodara: Studying biology and molecular biology. You were in University of Southern California before, right? Krishna Tiwari: No, University of California to Los Angeles. UCLA.
Prabhupāda: So:
So biology... Biology means the scientist dealing in living entities?
Krishna Tiwari: Right.
Prabhupāda: So I don't think your science has reached to the point to find out the measurement of the living entity.
Krishna Tiwari: Well, that is very true.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: That is very true. That is very true.
Prabhupāda: But we get information that there is a measurement. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya, śatāṁśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ (CC Madhya 19.140). The tip of the hair you divide into one hundred parts, and take that part, again divide into one hundred parts, that is the measurement. That is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. How far do you agree with this?
Prabhupāda: So as so far the differences, there is no difference, because just like this body: the body has got different parts—the fingers, the hands, the eyes, the legs, so many different—but the whole purpose is to serve the body. Either with the finger or eyes or hands or legs, the whole purpose is centered on the soul of the complete whole body. Similarly, Bhāgavata says that whatever you may—you may be scientist, you may be philosopher, you may be an engineer, you may be a poet, you may be sociologist, politician, whatever you may be-their purpose should be avicyutaḥ arthaḥ. Avicyutaḥ means infallible purpose. Avicyutaḥ arthaḥ kavibhih nirūpitaḥ. "It has been decided by great learned scholar," says "all of them should be engaged in glorifying the Supreme." Avicyuto 'rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. The scientists, from their angle of vision, should describe the glory of the Lord: how this biology is working by the manipulation of the Supreme Lord. Similarly chemists, physicists, engineers, politicians, there are different departments, but all of them should join together, congregation, and from their different scientific point, angle of vision, they should glorify the Supreme Lord.
Prabhupāda: But, if you study my body, you have to study the whole body, not my nails or my hair.
Krishna Tiwari: No, we have to start somewhere.
Prabhupāda: No. That is...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The scientific process.
Prabhupāda: Scientific process, you begin studying... Suppose you are studying biology, you begin from hair, do you mean to say?
Krishna Tiwari: Yes, but something I..., can I have my some doubts?
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all you answer me.
Krishna Tiwari: Yeah, I answer you because, uh...
Prabhupāda: That because you are studying my body you begin studying from my hair?
Krishna Tiwari: Some place, some place. It is hair, eyes, ears, someplace.
Prabhupāda: You think that is, uh, scientific?
Krishna Tiwari: Scientists will study... If they want to study a body, they study first outside, looking at what they can learn. Then after sometime it is stopped. Then one has to go inside.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right. So our point of view is when we study the body, we study first of all the soul.
Prabhupāda: So first of all you study the part. What is the deficiency in the dead body? Have you studied it? That he's a dead body.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You are biologist.
Krishna Tiwari: Yes.
Prabhupāda: When the body is dead, what thing is missing? Huh?
Krishna Tiwari: The body gets dead because every reaction comes to equilibrium.
Prabhupāda: (to Śyāmasundara) What is that?
Śyāmasundara: Every reaction, chemical reaction, comes to a standstill.
Prabhupāda: How? How is this?
Krishna Tiwari: Huh?
Prabhupāda: How it comes?
Krishna Tiwari: I think everyone understands that neither the reaction goes this way or that way. Things do not happen. And there's not one thing which controls it. There are millions of, you know, variables in it. There are lots of variables.
Sir Alistair Hardy: Temple gates. Yes. And I was making a drawing of this. So I had a very big crowd around me. And my Indian friends... I'd been staying at Mandapam (?) which is the... It was a naval settlement. Well, it was really a settlement of the Indian fisheries. My biological interest had always been in the sea. And these friends came over, and they left this case while they went to take photographs. And they came back. And so the crowd were very excited. "Would you like to know what they're saying?" And so I said, "Yes." So he said, "What they're saying is, 'Isn't he wonderful! Isn't he wonderful! He's taking photographs with his fingers.' " They were more used to photographs, I think. They'd never seen anyone doing an actual... They'd seen symbolic drawings, but... I was reproducing the temple gates, and they said I was taking photographs with my fingers. I thought that was a wonderful expression really, "taking photographs with my fingers." (Someone brings in prasādam) Oh, thank you.
Prabhupāda: No, you can keep it here.
Revatīnandana: Perhaps if you keep your case there.
Sir Alistair Hardy: Oh. My case, yes.
Revatīnandana: You can use it like a little table.
Sir Alistair Hardy: Thank you. Such a huge... Oh, now can I have... I'd like some of this. Put that down. Put that down.
Pradyumna: You know the Indian style of...
Sir Alistair Hardy: I must follow you, how you eat this. I don't know how you...
Prabhupāda: Anything you can eat, as you like. There is no restriction.
Pradyumna: You probably had those in India.
Sir Alistair Hardy: (break) ...through India, going out to the Far East. I've been out advising on the setting up of a fishery, biological research, at Hong Kong. But I never believe in going straight out and I've always stopped in India, various places, very little, short time. (eating) I had a great friend, Professor Bower, who was professor of zoology at Lucknow. He then became the vice-chancellor of Patna. But he overworked very badly, and he had a breakdown, and then... But he was an awfully nice man. I stayed with him in Lucknow.
Prabhupāda: This zoology is another subject matter, whether life began from matter or matter began from life.
Sir Alistair Hardy: That's a great problem in biology, how did life arise from the inorganic matter.
Revatīnandana: Quite a problem. We don't agree. We think that it didn't.
Sir Alistair Hardy: No? I say, that's...
Prabhupāda: Life came from life; matter also came from matter, er, life. That is explained in the Vedānta-sūtra, janmādyasya yataḥ. And it is explained in Bhagavad-gītā: Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). So there is no difficulty.
Prabhupāda: You, you, you think that to kill an animal is no sin?
Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin. Because we think that the simple biologic life is not sacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, the human life. But not the life, ass.
Prabhupāda: But I think that it is interpretation. Jesus Christ says generally: "Thou shalt not kill."
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not, the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old Testament, and it is a text...
Prabhupāda: No, it is New Testament also.
Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament.
Prabhupāda: No, is it not in the New Testament?
Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in the book of the Levitic.
Prabhupāda: Ahhh.
Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word of the Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the Ten Commandments what God gave to Moses.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But Ten Commandments, one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill."
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that there is a difference of nature between life of man, life of spirit, and biological, biological life. And we say... (break) ...not really exists, and we think so. We think that animals, plant are not real beings, are world of appearance and that you human person only is real being. And that in this sense, the material world is without importance.
Prabhupāda: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living in this house. So you are not this house, that's a fact.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupāda: But if I come and break your house, is it not inconvenience for you?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient.
Prabhupāda: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is it not criminal?
Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is...
Prabhupāda: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is it not criminal? Is it not sinful?
Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it is not the destruction of the spiritual man itself.
Prabhupāda: You see still, gases, I mean to say, cloud is forming in the sky. But you have no eyes to see it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: With this background before, then that is why they start saying that before Darwin's theory there should be one. That is called chemical evolution. That is called pre-biotic-chemistry. Means before biological evolution started there should be chemical evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that chemical evolution is part of life demonstration. That I have already explained. Just like the chemical, citric acid, coming from lemon tree, a life. It is coming. So all chemicals are being produced... Just like in your body, in my body, there are so many chemicals. Because the body is there, the chemicals are coming. In my urine you will find so much, so many chemicals. In my stool you will find so many chemicals. Wherefrom the chemicals coming? Daily, enzymes, so many other chemicals are coming. Simply the medical man analyzes the urine, and so many chemicals are there. Wherefrom it came? Because I am living entity, the chemicals are coming in my urine, in my stool, in my cough, in my secretion. It is coming. Therefore it is concluded that chemicals are produced by life, not life is produced by chemicals.
Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, yes, That's it. A potter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This idea Śrīla Prabhupāda, about the chemical evolution, this idea came from, I think, in 1920 by a Russian scientist. He is a biologist. His name is Oparin. So he demonstrated that before biological evolution the atmosphere of the earth should be, he called, very much reducing. Reducing, that means it must be mostly full of hydrogens, no oxygen, very little oxygen, but mostly hydrogen. Then in due course because of the reaction in these hydrogen compounds and the radiation from the sunlight, then these compounds form into different chemicals which are...
Prabhupāda: That is a side study. But there was hydrogen. Wherefrom the hydrogen came? The scientists, simply they study in the middle. But they do not know what is the origin. Just like here is one aeroplane is coming, and you can say, "All of a sudden a light came out of the sea." Is that the study of this aeroplane? If we... the foolish person will see, "All of a sudden, in the sea there was a light." Is that scientific study? So your study is like that. "There was this, and all of a sudden, by chance..." That's it. That is not scientific study. We have to find out the original cause.
Dr. Sallaz: I'm still working because I have to entertain with money. In our world you cannot do anything without money. But what may interest you is that we have several manpower who are looking for truth, for the really truth, and trying to attain it and to follow it. And for this reason, it is said to go only according the scientific organization officials, so on, we went in quite revolutionary ways. For instance, we took all biology coming from the energetic point of view which is quite different. Not with the microscope, not with chemical analysis, but with the thinking that everything is only immaterial reaction (?). And with this we achieved extraordinary result. So we have looked at the official world as completely fool.
Yogeśvara: Are you able to understand when he speaks? I can repeat if you like.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you come here.
Dr. Sallaz: I believe on this point of view. (speaks in French with Yogeśvara)
Yogeśvara: He explains that the group that he is heading up is a little bit revolutionary in the biological field. Instead of taking biology from the point of chemical, microscopic analysis, they take biology from the point of view of energetic, that is to say, everything being energy, stemming from some source, that everything is energy.
Prabhupāda: This is nice. Actually, it is so.
Dr. Sallaz: I'm sure it is possible, from what we have seen and made. But it is not of great interest to make gold.
Prabhupāda: No, we are interested. (laughter) We want gold for spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody is paying us. We are simply selling our books. That's all. Nobody paying us, no government, no..., that "You take so many million dollars for spreading Kṛṣṇa..." Nobody. Therefore we require some gold. So biology, what is the basic principle of biology?
Yogeśvara: Do you understand his question?
Dr. Sallaz: Yes. Le principe, c'est la vie, life. And what is life? It is energy, speaking in European language.
Prabhupāda: Life, what is his life?
Yogeśvara: He says it is energy, life is energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whose energy? Whose energy? Wherefrom the energy comes?
Dr. Sallaz: From very, very high up.
Prabhupāda: Ahiṁsā, because at that time people were killing animals in the name of yajña. Just like in the Christian world the order is not to kill, but still, they are killing. So this misuse of scriptural injunction is always going on. A class of men there are who abuse the scriptural injunctions and go on with their own motive. So there was a period when people, under the protection of Vedas... Because Vedas, animal sacrifice is recommended for certain purpose, to test the proper chanting of Vedic mantras. The animal was not killed. The animal was put into the fire. Then again it would come out with new life. That is the proper chanting of the Vedic mantras. So for that purpose, animal sacrifice... Just like in biological laboratories, they experiment on the body of animals, frogs, guinea pigs. Similarly, a similar experiment was made, how the Vedic mantra is being properly chanted. The test was that animal should be put into the fire, and if the Vedic mantras were properly being chanted, then that animal would come with a new body. So an old cow or bull was put and he would come with fresh body. That was the purpose. Now later on, they began to eat meat by so-called animal sacrifice. In that period Lord Buddha appeared. About him it is, description is there, sadaya-hṛdaya darśita-paśu-ghātam. The Lord became compassionate on the animals, as they were being killed unnecessarily.
Yogeśvara: ...who wrote a book called "Brave New Worlds", and in that book, he predicted something that's coming true now, that there would be a process of biologically screening babies so that men could be breeded like animals, like they breed animals. So they would take one strain of chromosomes and breed a class of men who would make perfect administrators, and then they would breed another class of men that would be perfect śūdras, and they would breed another class of men who would be perfect scientists.
Prabhupāda: And that is already there. Guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13). The, the, in Vedic astrology, jāta-karma, they will say that "This child is a śūdra, this child is a brāhmaṇa, this child is a kṣatriya." By the birth, by the constellation of the stars, it will be done. It is already being done. And in the medical laboratory, the blood has been tested, brāhmaṇa, śūdra, vaiśya, there is different blood. Yes. The blood infusion. So if the, a different blood is infused, it does not act. So one doctor, in India, he was permanently keeping different bloods for different persons. So there is some meaning in the caste system. But that is not... In a brāhmaṇa family, a śūdra may also take birth. Śūdra blood. So to keep the blood brahminical, therefore the reformatory system is there, garbhādhāna-saṁskāra and all the saṁskāras. Before birth, they keep, to keep the blood brahminical, there is ceremony.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca (BG 15.15). Sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi sanniviṣṭaḥ. So He is sitting in everyone's heart, and He's giving intelligence. And because the intelligence comes from God, therefore one is more intelligent, one is less intelligent. Because intelligence is not his. It is by the mercy of God one gets more intelligence, one gets less intelligence. So intelligence is supplied by God.
Yogeśvara: Yet... But they claim to have found a way of making people biologically more intelligent now.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Yogeśvara: The scientists claim that they have found a way of making babies more intelligent.
Prabhupāda: That, they are dipping in so many things. Therefore we kick on their face, that say, promise, so many things, but cannot do anything. That is the defect of the so-called scientists. They are promising, "By scientific method, we shall make man deathless." Do they not say?
Devotees: Yes.
Guest (1): The question is, well, Vedic idea that knowledge, human knowledge, is imperfect, does that not then go along... Of course, we are limited by, all time by biological limitation and so on. But this statement, that there is perfect knowledge, that it can be acquired, and that there are some people who did acquire it, that's very strong statement indeed, and my question is of the practical nature. How one can know that given source of supposed spiritual truth is an actual truth? Is there any technique how one can get to it?
Prabhupāda: That I have already said, that you take the vibration from the Vedic knowledge and you experiment it. Observation and experiment, that is scientific. So first of all observation and then experiment. And when you are satisfied by experiment, then it is perfect knowledge.
Guest (1): If I am satisfied? Can I rely that much on myself?
Prabhupāda: Anyone can do, provided he knows the art how to do it. It is a technique also. You cannot make experiment as a crude man. You must be expert. But it is... In our Caitanya-caritāmṛta you'll find that there is a statement, caitanyera dayāra kathā karaha vicāra: "Just try to make an experiment on the mercy of Lord Caitanya." Vicāra karile citte pabe camatkāra: "When you make an experiment, then you'll be awe-full 'Oh, it is so nice.' " So it is not to be accepted blindly.
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. He may distill one pound of water. That does not mean that... Why they are unnecessarily proud and denying the authority of God? How foolish they are. Therefore I don't like them, the most heinous type of atheist, not gentlemen. (break) Whenever they hold some conference they say, "Don't talk of God. Then you cannot come to the conference." Do they not? What is that principle?
Bali-mardana: Yes, yes, they do that. There was a conference on biology and evolution, and they made a rule at the beginning of the conference that "Whatever we discuss from now on is all right except that we will not discuss about God or anything, any divine factor of creation.
Prabhupāda: Just see how much atheist they are. Shameless atheist. Other atheists, they have got some shame. But these people are shameless. Shameless.
Bali-mardana: "Because we cannot see God in our laboratory, therefore we will not discuss Him."
Prabhupāda: But why do you teach us? We do not see whatever you say. We do not, so why do you place upon us? If seeing is evidence, then we don't see what nonsense you are talking.
Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Wolfe? Is he missing the evolution?
Prabhupāda: He was speaking biological?
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, I think he was not understanding it so well.
Prabhupāda: Means his understanding, that biological, not ours.
Paramahaṁsa: Yeah, he's thinking biological evolution instead of transmigration of the soul. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...go-kharaḥ. Anything evolving on the bodily concept of life, he remains an animal. That is the defect of the western philosophy. (break) ...philosophy, the dog's tail. He is always this way, material way.
Brahmānanda: Each man presents his own theory.
Prabhupāda: That is theosophy, that is not theology. Theosophy means a system of speculation, that's all. And theology does not require. Biology. Logy means science. They say anthropology, but it is not logy; it is theory. "Maybe," "200,000,000's of years." What is this? Logy does not mean that.
Jayatīrtha: Still, they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology.
Prabhupāda: Just like astrology. That is a science. Eh? What is that?
Jayatīrtha: But still they're awarding Ph.D.'s in theology, even they don't know anything about it.
Prabhupāda: You can do. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. When there is no tree, the small castor seed oil tree... It is not much. It becomes a very big tree. Hiranda-pitha drumayate. The castor seed plants, they are taken as big tree. (break) Actually, theology is Bhagavad-gītā. (break)
Jayatīrtha: Oh, that's nice. Very good. (break)
Prabhupāda: Suitable?
Brahmānanda: Yes.
Jayatīrtha: ...given them the facility that they need for survival.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the... Jīvo jīvasya jīvanam. They do not know industry. (laughs) So they have to catch their eatables from the nature.
Bahulāśva: The scientists say that everything has developed due to the need for biological survival.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) ...is of the body, not of the soul. That they do not know. (break)
Rādhā-vallabha: ...because a certain animal needs a certain type of facility like long claws or big teeth or a certain amount of legs, they say that automatically in the course of time these things develop.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we know also.
Rādhā-vallabha: They don't say that it has anything to do with God. They simply say...
Prabhupāda: That is their nonsense rascaldom. Who is arranging this? You cannot do it. You cannot do it. So somebody has arranged like that. It is going on. Somebody has done. You have not done; neither you have power to do it. So that somebody is God.
Dr. Patel: They are serving the Mammon and not God.
Prabhupāda: So, so many psychologists, psychiatrists, scientists, they come there in Los Angeles.
Dr. Patel: I mean, the psychologists are the real science which can lead a man to the higher understanding of life, psychologists. The abstract sciences of biology and psychics, chemistry, are little lower sciences. The psychology is much higher.
Prabhupāda: No science is perfect. Asato dhavato bahiḥ.
Dr. Patel: In imperfection also there can be gradations.
Prabhupāda: Gradations, that I give the example: stool, this side and that side, the dry side and the moist side. Somebody says, "Oh, this side is very good. It is dry stool." (laughter)
Dr. Patel: You have to examine in a different way.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is very good example. Stool is stool, but they are thinking, "This side is very good because it is dried up.
Prabhupāda: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...
Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaiśeṣikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaiśeṣika-śāstra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.
Prabhupāda: No...
Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science...
Prabhupāda: Rāvaṇa was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as rākṣasa.
Dr. Patel: But we are not Rāvaṇas, are we? We are Vaiśeṣikas.
Prabhupāda: No, anyone.
Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaiśeṣika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaiśeṣika scientists.
Prabhupāda: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals.
Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta.
Prabhupāda: That we don't say. Kṛṣṇa says, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ (BG 7.15).
Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not...
Prabhupāda: These rascals. All these rascals.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But your how..., ask a question puzzling with me. So I...
Prabhupāda: No, I ask you, that how this experiment with truth can be?
Dr. Patel: The experiment with sciences, we are making experiment with biological sciences and abstract, I mean sciences of physics and chemistry, and that those who are truths already, we are trying to honor. We cannot make truths. Truths are there already settled by God. God, we try to find out what is exactly, and how it is being done. But we are not trying to find out who is doing. That is your point. I understand.
Prabhupāda: No. If the truth is there, there is no question of experiment.
Dr. Patel: We are experimenting to find out the truth. Truth is there. My house is there, sir, but you may go this way or that way, that way. We are making experiment to go to my house.
Prabhupāda: So that means you do not know what is the truth.
Dr. Patel: Truth is there, but we do not know the truth. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Brahma-vid brahma eva bhavati, he is just like.... All the knowledge of God is imbibed within.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he is concentrated. Just like our bhakti. Bhakti means we know, "Here is God: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28)." So there is no question of experimenting. Now we are known, we are concentrating how to satisfy. There is no question of experimentation.
Dr. Patel: But the physical scientists' method, chemistry, biology, is, I mean, this physics, they have to experiment in their.... They are nothing but the finding out the truth behind the phenomena, the material phenomena. That is what I mean.
Prabhupāda: Phenomena is changeable, always changing. Just like this samudra—sometimes here, sometimes there.
Dr. Patel: Yes, right, sir. But why the samudra changes? We go into there, into deep depth of that...
Prabhupāda: That is truth. That is truth. By the yasyājñayā bhramati sambhṛta-kāla-cakro, that is truth. Govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi **. That is truth. The phenomena, that is changing. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19).
Dr. Patel: Are you going tomorrow?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the value of your health if you do not save him?
Dr. Patel: The value of the health is being found out the whole over.
Prabhupāda: That is, I am asking you. (laughs)
Dr. Patel: You know it better. Why ask me? Modern science is especially to give chemistry and biology. They have learned so much. I mean, practically they have really reached that position which the vaiśeṣika śāstra reached in past. Vaiśeṣika is one of the six darśanas. They also tried to prove the existence of God and God creation by that method, because they also believed in Vedas. We are also trying to do the same thing by our own way. And real modern scientists have found out that nothing can happen without God. But you.... In your time, when you were a student, scientists were atheists. Now scientists are not atheists, sir. So I beseech you to remove that idea from you.
Prabhupāda: (break) Well, impersonal philosophers are more dangerous than the atheist.
Dr. Patel: That you think.
Prabhupāda: No, Caitanya Mahāprabhu says. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says.
Guru-kṛpā: In Vṛndāvana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them.
Prabhupāda: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies.
Prabhupāda: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your vers.... I say that "When he is doing everything like a human being he has got everything." It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that.... Just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Kṛṣṇa says, īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna (BG 18.61). When Īśvara is in everyone's heart, how you can.... Hṛd-deśe. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So this is speaking of the material heart.
Prabhupāda: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent.
Prabhupāda: Then.... Heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution.
Hariśauri: In the Kaṭha Upaniṣad it describes how they're sitting side by side.
Prabhupāda: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the.... I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no.... And what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Kṛṣṇa says clearly, hṛd-deśe 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra, machine. So as machine means, moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place.... Everything is there, machine.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart.
Prabhupāda: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part(?). What is that? Spi...? Begins the word, the machine, the record?
Devotee (2): Spirograph.
Prabhupāda: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine...
Devotee 2: Cardiograph.
Prabhupāda: Cardiograph, like that.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually it is taught in all schools. There's a book called Molecules to Man. It's written by a very famous biologist, and it has been taught in school, saying that you come like this, from molecules, now you become human beings.
Prabhupāda: Now what...? Leave aside man. Molecules to chicken. How it is done? What is their answer?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say give enough length of time.
Prabhupāda: Why shall I give them? Here I see. Within a week, I get.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: They'll ask, though, "Where did the first egg come from?"
Prabhupāda: First, second, no. We see that... They say you have to wait, give the molecules chance, hundreds of billions of years, then you'll see life. But I'm not going to live for billions of years, neither scientist is going to live. But here I see practically that a small egg, it gives life within one week.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Life?
Prabhupāda: Life from egg, chicken. It gives life within week. So why shall I wait for millions of billions of years? You show, you make some combination of chemical and show that life is coming within a week.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It is also existing in the sense that in the unmanifested form, before it is manifested, the form is there.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is species. Form is there already. They are existing. So you require to get another form, but the same class. First-class compartment is there. If it is, one bogey is already, first-class filled up, then railroad company brings another bogey and gives place to the passengers. That's all, there is no difficulty. What is the difficulty? Put him into this particular mother's womb and he gets a form, that's all. Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate (Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport). Don't compare Kṛṣṇa's power with your power. He can do anything, anyone, immediately.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So called Acintya. (pause) What is the biological concept of species?
Sadāpūta: All they can do is base it on the similarity of what the animals look like. They have trouble counting species. Śrīla Prabhupāda? Are there different meanings, this day of Brahmā? Are there different creations and annihilations of species? Different Manus, they are sometimes flooding the whole earth.
Prabhupāda: There are different, when Brahmā goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation, and when he dies there is one kind. And during Brahmā's days there are other devastations, manvantara.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is a basic difference between the earthworm and the man.
Prabhupāda: No difference. It is also living entity, you are also living entity.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But difference in the sense that the earthworm is, actually, it is not trying to violate the laws of nature. Just follows.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that, the process of life is the same, biological. These rascals say that there is no soul of the animal, but is it correct biologically?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is biologically wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you see the way physical and atomical constitution of the animal and the man, the same. If you say man has soul, then the animal has also soul. If you deny that man has no soul, then you can also deny. But so far physiological... They, in the biological laboratory, they dissect the frogs to see the similar arrangement. So how you can you say the frog has no soul? Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, actually the research is also getting more and more difficult.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what they'll research? Everything finished.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Their imagination is running out.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, the ideas are running out. That's why now they are doing on the biological sciences mainly.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. There is another nonsense. Why they are checking the flow?
Vipina: The water is too rough for the boats to travel, so they made this artificial canal so boats could travel without getting wrecked, and they could transport their items of sense gratification in that way. They used to have mules that pulled the boats with ropes alongside here, these pathways, pulled them through the canal.
Prabhupāda: It will grow mosquitoes, mosquito plant.
Prabhupāda: We have to hear this thing: "Somehow they have made a mistake."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually it is very controversial. This... I read an article from the university of Berkeley, Berkeley and some other western campuses, saying that now the theory of this mutation by which the different species are formed is very controversial at this time. Because of the knowledge in our molecular biology, now what they have thought that this mutation is the cause of this variegatedness is a misnomer, being complete mistaken.
Prabhupāda: All mistaken. Where is the difference, then how do you experiment in the biological class by dissecting animal body? What is the difference in the composition of social construction, I er, bodily construction. You have to suffer. That's why I have said, there must be (indistinct). The same principle is there. Otherwise how the mosquito fly like this and...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can make a mosquito but they...
Prabhupāda: No, they cannot make mosquito. They can make 747.
Prabhupāda: Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (BG 8.19). That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So in fact, one of the remarks of a scientist, Nobel laureate actually, in Harvard, Mādhava told me he was in American Association for the Advancement of Science. This professor is a professor in biology in Harvard, Boston. His answer was that, "In order to have man in this planet, the stars have to die." That means we come from the stars. The particles, from the stars, then the main involved from those molecules, that star, that come from the stars.
Prabhupāda: You do something. I can give you the idea. But it is fact. What ideas I am giving, that's a fact. Now it is up to you to put it (into) so-called scientifics. He'll... In future millions of years after it will create one living entity in the laboratory, so he's taking all the credit, and God is creating millions and millions already, He has no credit. You'll see their intelligence. What the people will gain even if you manufacture one life in the laboratory? So what is the gain? Why you are spending so much money?
Yadubara: They want to become God.
Prabhupāda: God becoming is far away. First of all, make some living entity. But even if you do it, then what is your credit? Why you want to take so much great credit?
Prabhupāda: Manufacture.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Plastic materials will be predominant, and we will have more frontiers of knowledge especially in the biology, molecular biology. So they are also pessimist that in such and such years we're going to make short of these coal deposits and all these energy supplies, all these different...
Prabhupāda: That will be finished?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) will work?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But he is not, he's optimistic. He said they will find new sources on the nuclear energy, solar energy and all these predictions. But the point there is that these people, they believe in what he says, because he has Nobel laureate (indistinct), and he's respected by... He's very old about seventy...
Prabhupāda: So what he is proposing? It's nothing new.
Bill Sauer: Saying that we're governed by the laws of nature, since we are a biological creature like the rest... (laughs)
Prabhupāda: So you should not remain under the laws of material nature. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult.
Bill Sauer: In one of the cover letters that went out to some of the people in the American Institute of the Aeronautics and Astronautics, I referred to mankind as a biological phenomenon to solve one of nature's big problems. And a man wrote back, "Anyone who calls man a biological phenomenon shouldn't try and talk to me." So I don't know what he thinks we are, but...
Prabhupāda: Biological phenomenon...
Bill Sauer: It is nature, it is governed by the laws of nature, exactly.
Prabhupāda: So you can get out of it as it is advised, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (BG 7.14). It is very difficult. But mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. If you surrender to God, then you can get out of this biological problem. Otherwise it is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Maybe dog or maybe somebody else; that doesn't matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the last, about three years ago or so, there is a new branch of study, it is called biomedical ethics, that deals with the symptom of death: How can one define when a person dies? What are the symptoms? and How can we judge that this man is dead? It is a great controversy in medical science.
Bali-mardana: They went to the Supreme Court to question when does death occur.
Prabhupāda: So what Supreme Court will decide? (laughter) What you nonsense judge know? He's also as good a rascal as the person who put the question.
Bali-mardana: Actually they admitted that they could not decide.
Rāmeśvara: The argument is that by medicine or by injecting some, inserting some apparatus, some machine, they can keep the heart beating.
Prabhupāda: You rascal, he's another rascal. And one who believes in it, he's also a rascal.
Rāmeśvara: Ghostly haunted.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone, the materialistic man means ghostly haunted. He's talking so many nonsense. The whole grade, philosophy, science and everything, all ghostly talking, that's all. There is no reality. Just like the new science you said, what is that?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Huh?
Prabhupāda: That new medical science?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Biomedical ethics.
Prabhupāda: A big name.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, it's a nice name. They started with theology also now, in the speculative branch of philosophy.
Prabhupāda: So in spite of these big, big names and research and everything, man will die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. He's thinking it will drop. It will never be possible, but they're thinking that by these big, big names we shall find out the way that man will not die. This is bakāṇḍo nyāya. Hope against hope. So by that method they want to live? No.
Prabhupāda: So it is not very deep.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. It's a very colorful display. Hundreds of people come, especially on Sundays, sailing their boats.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda? In this biomedical science, this ethics, there's a problem arising. The person, the family of the person who is suffering, says that "Please don't apply these machines. Let the person die." But the medical doctors say "No, we'll keep him alive as long as we can go on." So this is a problem. So who's right? Is the family right, or...
Prabhupāda: Family right. Family is intelligent, that "You are rascal, why you are trying? Let him die peacefully."
Prabhupāda: That is the only explanation.
Rāmeśvara: They are very bewildered. They cannot imagine how a cell within the body is growing. They cannot imagine that there is a soul within it. Or a plant from a seed. They can never understand these things. Actually it's a fact. When we studied in biology before we became devotees, they never explained how the tree comes from the seed.
Prabhupāda: The seed creates a favorable situation, and the life comes. On account of the life's presence, it grows, it develops. This is right explanation.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes we say, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that when the body is useless, then the soul leaves, just like giving up an old pair of clothes. But sometimes we see that someone in very good health, youthful, all of a sudden they give up their body.
Prabhupāda: You are very healthy. Is there any guarantee that you will not die?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: No, there's no guarantee.
Prabhupāda: That is the life.(?) You may be very stout and strong. The death may take from so many causes. It does not depend on your healthy body.
Prabhupāda: They have standardized their happiness on these principles—illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. These are the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Rolan(?) said, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still, he said "Oh, it is impossible."
Jyotirmāyī: You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and...
Prabhupāda: What is the use?
Jyotirmāyī: Just to have some general knowledge...
Prabhupāda: Simply waste of time, simply waste of time.
Jyotirmāyī: Even the basic of this?
Prabhupāda: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, whether you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood? What is the use?
Jyotirmāyī: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate two plus two equal to four, a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all, he'll take one ounce of blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give you a tablet, "Perhaps it may help." This is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine... (break)
Yogeśvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge?
Prabhupāda: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?
Hari-śauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brāhmaṇas, devotees.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.
Prabhupāda: You follow that, brahmacārī gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"—Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.
Hari-śauri: Lockers.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is not possible for us. We welcome. But we must be well organized to utilize these poor souls for becoming first-class devotees. That should be done. Otherwise, sex life and the by-product, that is always troublesome, either you take this way or that way, it is troublesome. If it is not troublesome, why they are killing their own children? To avoid trouble. This is psychology. They want to avoid trouble. But our process is, if you want to avoid trouble, then don't marry, remain brahmacārī. If you cannot, then, all right, have legal wife, get children and raise them very nicely, make them Vaiṣṇavas, take the responsibility. So we are organizing this society, we welcome. Some way or other we shall arrange for shelter. But to take care of the children, to educate them, that will depend on their parents. Now our Pradyumna was complaining that in the Gurukula, his child was not educated to count one, two, three, four. So I have told him that "You educate your child. Let the mother educate in English, and you educate him in Sanskrit." Who can take care? So similarly every father, mother should take care that in future they may not be a batch of unwanted children. We can welcome hundreds and thousands of children. There is no question of economic problem. We know that. But the father, mother must take care at least. Properly trained up, they should be always engaged. That is brahmacārī gurukula. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam (SB 7.12.1). From the very beginning they should be trained up. From the body, they should be trained up how to take bath, how to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa or some Vedic mantra, go to the temple, offer obeisances, prayer, then take their lunch... In this way, they should be always engaged. Then they'll be trained up. Simple thing. We don't want to train them as big grammarians. No. That is not wanted. That anyone, if he has got some inclination, he can do it personally. There is no harm. General training is that he must be a devotee, a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. That should be introduced. Otherwise, the gurukula will be... Otherwise Jyotirmayī was suggesting the biology. What they'll do with biology? Don't introduce unnecessary nonsense things. Simple life. Simply to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let them be convinced that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to serve Him, that's all. Huh? (indistinct) What is that? māyār bośe, jāccho bhese' Khāccho hābuḍubu bhāi jīv kṛṣṇa-dās ei biśwās korle to ār duḥkho nāi. So organize. If you have got sufficient place, sufficient scope, let them be trained up very nicely. If some four, five centers like this there are in Europe, the whole face will be changed. Important places like Germany, France, England. Now we are getting place. I like that place, German, on account of this. It has got scope.
Prabhupāda: That, here is the society. You train them. You have got all children. You train them in that way, so that... Whatever is done is done. Now you can make very good society, Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Not that one mistake has been done, you should continue. Rectify it. The difficulty is the modern society, the leaders, they do not know the aim of life. They are blindly doing everything like animals. Their philosophy is like the animals. Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy, that's all. This is the philosophy of the animals. And human philosophy is to understand first of all what I am. I am this body or something else? That is human life. But nobody questions this, there is no institution to teach this science, therefore the whole human society is misguided. Just like if I want to train my boy to become a medical man, then I teach him biology, botany, similar... So if... Because I know I shall make my boy a medical man. Similarly, we should know what is the aim of human life. Then we have to construct the social political, everything, favorable to that end. But they do not know what is the aim of life. That is the whole mistake. I think that in Bible there is a story, prodigal son? So we are prodigal son. We are all sons of God, now we have become prodigal sons. What is the meaning of prodigal? "Without any responsibility," is it not? Do whatever you like.
Prabhupāda: Virus.
Guest: Virus. (Bengali) Now we know even the inanimate is animate, but by biology only it is changing. All the unanimate subject is slowly being transformed into animate. We are all convinced the whole process is the same. It's a terrific science now, biology. Latest, we have discovered. I am also working on biology quite a bit for all the virus disease and all. And we can eliminate them by only vacuum. My whole cure, they call it miracle and all is nonsense, it is only creating a vacuum which automatically takes away.
Prabhupāda: This biology will be complete...
Guest: When we accept this.
Prabhupāda: ...when you accept this.
Guest: I know. (laughs) And I have accepted long ago. Because I felt, as a sincere worker, medicine doesn't interest me. What interests me is the cure. My profession is to cure, not to study the medicines. That is the cure.
Prabhupāda: Here it is very clearly stated that kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya (BG 13.22). The biology, infection. Kāraṇam, that is the kāraṇam. Kāraṇam guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu. Why there are varieties of life? One is very intelligent...
Guest: You know also in (Sanskrit).
Prabhupāda: Same thing.
Guest (1): Necessity of life.
Dr. Patel: Biological necessity.
Prabhupāda: Necessity. What is the difference? Why not with sister, why not with daughter or even why not with mother? What is the wrong there? They say like that?
Dr. Patel: They consider themselves to be animals.
Prabhupāda: They are animals. Why consider? They are animals. Therefore śāstra says viḍ-bhujām. Not ordinary animals. A sewer animal. Suar. (Hindi) Animal society. Dvipāda-paśu. We'll say that "Why you are wasting your time in this so-called material advancement?" How they'll understand? So dull head. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (laughs) You're right. The modern civilization is the materialists, veda is material. Veda is body consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That means suar civilization. It is suar civilization.
Prabhupāda: So without that...
Dr. Patel: If you are an amoeba or a highest evolved man, the system of life is the same.
Prabhupāda: Without...
Dr. Patel: That is the wonder of biology and science. That is why we wonder how great God has made the creation. That is where we feel the presence of God, or the real scientist. (break)
Prabhupāda: They believe. Some rascals, they say there is no God.
Dr. Patel: This Khorana, our Indian scientist... He did this work and he felt aghast: "O God!" Because he had a background of...
Prabhupāda: Hindu.
Dr. Patel: A religiosity there. Some fellows in America, they talk nonsense about this science: "It's all the chemicals." They believe in what we call that dialectical materialism: It is a material arrangement which produces consciousness. It is not the consciousness which governs the material. (break)
Prabhupāda: ...the brain is conscious? (break) If you want subsidence of anartha, bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje. Anartham upaśamaṁ sākṣād bhakti-yogam adhokṣaje, lokasyājāna... These rascals, they do not know. Ajānataḥ. Vidvāṁś cakre sātvata-saṁhitām (SB 1.7.6). Therefore Vyāsadeva made this sātvata-saṁhitā for these rascals and fools. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, janmādy asya yataḥ (SB 1.1.1). This is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. The origin of everything.... Anvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ sva-rāṭ. Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa.... (break) There is a very big.... What is called? Conspiracy against us.
Prabhupāda: Rich man, poor man, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, American, Ind..., sab combined. (Hindi) This is really United Nation, our organization. (Hindi) So? What other pictures?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I have many pictures. I gave a lecture, seminar, just before I came here at the university, about the nature of the Absolute Truth in terms of science and in terms of Bhagavad-gītā, a comparative study of the concept of the Absolute Truth. And there were many professors from physics, chemistry, mathematics, from philosophy, from biology, and from sociology. It was... Balavanta Prabhu was also there, and a few other devotees. It was quite interesting. And there was a slide show.
Prabhupāda: Balavanta was in Manipur?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. This is in the United States.
Prabhupāda: United States.
Prabhupāda: He was a scientist?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He was called naturalist. Yes, he was... He had some background in biology. And to counteract his statement we have also another statement from... This is from Einstein, but another, from Pasteur, this is very suitable for our purpose. (pause) Einstein was against the..., what they call the laws of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is the most advanced stage of modern physics or modern chemistry. But they are..., says that there must be chance. They must introduce a concept of chance in order to explain the nature of the Absolute Truth. In other words, these physical laws, the laws of nature...
Prabhupāda: The Absolute Truth is also chance?
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say that life comes from chemicals? Why do you make this false propaganda? That is our protest. You cannot do, it and still you make false propaganda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In principle... Last month in December, this Khorana... He's from M.I.T., the Indian who got Nobel Prize a few years ago. He's one of the big scientists in this, called, molecular biology. Actually he synthesized this code gene, one of the small fragments of... They're called DNA molecule. It's supposed to be the molecule for all living systems. So the promise was about ten years ago...
Prabhupāda: Again promise. That promise we don't want.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No, the promise was about ten years ago that once they synthesized this gene, complete synthesis, then they'll be able to make life...
Prabhupāda: "They will be." Again promise.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in the test tube. But it's not working. They have synthesized now.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you talk nonsense if it is not working? Therefore you are nonsense.
Prabhupāda: Controversial for them, not for the scientists.
Dr. Sharma: No, not but for them in the sense that (indistinct). Naturally even the subjects (indistinct) So we are waiting for the day when (indistinct) will really come.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One of the greatest men in this "Life coming from matter" is in Russia. His name is Ino Voparin(?), A.I. Voparin(?). He's in the Moscow Academy.
Dr. Sharma: He's a biologist.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, he's a biologist. He was one of the leading men who proposed this theory. He's getting old, but still, he's active. We wanted to send him all the things that we have written when it's finished.
Dr. Sharma: They may work on life and the gerontology. And they have published many papers on that. (indistinct) (pause) You have got anybody coming this evening?
Prabhupāda: I don't think so. (end)
Prabhupāda: Darwin... Grand rascal. All speculation. Transportation I told.
Just try to explain to them. (break) ...interesting. I can give you the ideas. You put in the scientific way. But whatever idea I give, that's a fact. They have stopped making propaganda about going to Mars?
Brahmānanda: Going to Mars? They've stopped propaganda?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yeah, they are a little silent.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) Hoax. First hoax was little successful. Now they say it will not be very successful.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: One aspect in science that they're worried more nowadays is called biomedical ethics. That means they are worrying about so-called this genetic engineering. They say by this engineering they can develop some small insects or microbes that will be great harmful. It will be very harmful to the society. So these big, big schools like M.I.T. and Harvard, they are... Some of the leading scientists in this field, they're very much concerned about this new development. (end)
rabhupāda: This is to be discussed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And that original life is Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: And then Kṛṣṇa, yes. (laughs) (Bengali) They are not shocked?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, they will be shocked. Actually science doesn't know anything about life. That's what I was pointing out today. Science studies only matter, like physics, chemistry, biology, just chemical reactions...
Prabhupāda: Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir-artha-māninaḥ. Bahir artha. Just like the body is the external feature of my life. So this is bahiḥ. Bahiḥ means external. The vairuddhi(?). The external feature is visible. Therefore it is called dṛśya-guṇa, visible modes of nature. This body... (break)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is visible part.
Prabhupāda: No, life is not visible to him. He is simply saying, the combination of the modes of nature visible.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, I also gave a lecture on the life in its origin. In Mathurā there is one veterinary college, the biggest in Asia, about two hundred scholars. We also showed "Hare Kṛṣṇa Frontier," "Spiritual Frontier" movies. They liked very much. And we're having another lecture Thursday to be given by Thompson in All-India Institute of Medical Sciences. There will be about some two hundred, three hundred scholars from around Delhi. We'll be discussing about life in its origin. And also we are planning to give several lecture in Delhi University, in the mathematics, biology and physics departments.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have also written books like this. This is a... (Bengali) This is our worldwide preaching program.
Prabhupāda: (Bengali) No sentiment—"Come on"—scientific challenge. (Bengali) No theory. (Bengali-Prabhupāda telling about Dr. Kapoor and scientific conference, Fiji, etc.) (Bengali) Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Here is Kṛṣṇa-kāliya, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Manipur devotees are very enthusiastic.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So is Svarūpa Dāmodara. (Prabhupāda laughs)
Prabhupāda: So Agra University, you lectured professors?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, professors and students, mostly the professors, from all departments: physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, and philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Hm!
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also asked me to bring a film from the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So I'm going to show the "Spiritual Frontier" just after the lecture. So I'll go with the Fairchild, the movie projector.
Prabhupāda: Very good. When you have to go?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The lecture is at 3:15, so I'll go about 11 because I like to also talk personally with some professors to become members of the Institute. That's one of our projects.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Svarūpa Dāmodara is enrolling members, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have, so far, four. But one of the biggest men in Agra Medical College, Dr. Malviya, he became a member. He's a very well known biochemist. So he told me that he's going to contribute articles. We would like members, the professors of chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It seems like there is a good future for Bhaktivedanta Institute, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause)
Prabhupāda: Who will be president?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who will be president? Of the institute, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: No, tomorrow.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who will be present? President of the meeting?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Oh, it's arranged by the head of the chemistry department. There's one professor called Gupta. He's very enthusiastic. And there are also several professors who came to our conference. All of them are arranging together. There's one Dr. Sukla, also there's one Dr. Sharma. Three, four of them are organizing the lecture. They have... Most of the people I found there, they have great respect for ISKCON, and they appreciate Śrīla Prabhupāda's activities so much. I also requested them it is their responsibility to actually try to spread the genuine knowledge as a real science, scientists.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Stories and fables will not convince them.
I am in due receipt of your letter dated June 14, 1975 and have noted the contents. Biological evolution is taking place on account of the soul's desire. It takes place because of infection. If a man has smallpox virus, then he is subjected to smallpox. It is not that everyone is infected and everyone is attacked with smallpox disease. Only the person who is infected, he is attacked.
| Page Title: | Biology |
| Compiler: | MadhuGopaldas, Mayapur |
| Created: | 25 of Nov, 2011 |
| Totals by Section: | BG=1, SB=0, CC=0, OB=1, Lec=25, Con=67, Let=1 |
| No. of Quotes: | 95 |