Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's life in any material . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But we wanted to avoid that . . .
Prabhupāda: In the physical combination of atoms is combination of life also.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In order to make a distinction between that life and the matter, especially to the material scientific community, we were thinking of presenting in the manner that matter, though in the spiritual sense there is nothing like matter, but still, this matter . . .
Prabhupāda: No, there is no . . . Matter means matter develops on spirit. Without spirit there is no existence of matter. Just like spirit means consciousness. You see in this finger, here is consciousness, and little after, there is no consciousness, this nail. But the nail has grown from the skin. So therefore, from consciousness, unconsciousness . . . Not that from unconsciousness, consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very good example.
Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness means absence of consciousness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Unconsciousness also means no life? Does it also mean no life?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Origin is consciousness. When there is forgetfulness, there is nothing. So unconsciousness is a covering of life. You develop this argument. There is no such thing as unconsciousness, but when the consciousness is covered, that is unconsciousness, negation.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That becomes matter.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That we say, "matter." Absence of consciousness is matter, jaḍa.
Satadhanya: We say "covered consciousness."
Prabhupāda: Hmm.
Bhakti-cāru: But, Śrīla Prabhupāda, the body is matter, but still it is conscious as long as I am alive. So that means the life is consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So the distinction that we are making is still proper, that matter is the inferior part of that Absolute Truth, and life is the superior part, and without being manipulated . . .
Prabhupāda: Superior feature.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. But both are spirit in a sense.
Prabhupāda: Everything is spirit. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma (Chāndogya Upaniṣad 3.14.1). Therefore I say there is no matter. Only matter means when the spirit is not discovered. When people are rascals, then there is matter. When people are intelligent, there is no matter. Sarvaṁ khalv idaṁ brahma. Therefore Māyāvādī philosophy, that "You are thinking you are now God," that is māyā.