Prabhupāda: They accept one energy. We accept also that. But they, defect is they are beginning from the material. That is their method. Just like this weather is beginning from the light and gradually it is becoming dark. So darkest part or the dark part is called material. But the dark is beginning from light, not the light is beginning from dark. That is their method. They are thinking that from matter, consciousness is coming. Now consciousness is there. When it is covered, degraded, that is unconsciousness. So material means when the consciousness is forgetful of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. Material means gradual development of forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. That is material. And spiritual means full consciousness of Kṛṣṇa. Is it clear? Try to understand this. Darkness is coming from light. Where the light is not visible that is called darkness. This is not the nature of the sun, this covering, cloudy nature. That is not the... The nature of sun is light, but by the energy of the sun another thing is temporary created which is called mist or darkness. This is temporary. This is not permanent nature. Therefore material nature is temporary and spiritual nature is permanent. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to get out of this temporary nature and go to the spiritual nature, permanent nature. Nobody wants also this temporary nature. Nobody likes this cloudy atmosphere.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The cloudiness is created from the superior energy.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So material is created from the superior.
Prabhupāda: Creator is one. It is always superior. Whatever is created, that is created by Him. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ (BG 10.8). "I am the creator of everything." So bad or good, everything. Bad and good, that is your creation. Kṛṣṇa's creation everything good. God is good. What you think bad, for God is good. Therefore we cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. He's doing something. In our consciousness it is bad, but we do not know that for him there is no such thing as good and bad. That we do not know. Kṛṣṇa is marrying 16,000 wives, somebody's criticizing, "Oh, He's so much fond of women." But we do not see the other side. He has got the power to expand Himself into 16,000 forms.
Paramahaṁsa: If this mist of material nature is temporary, then why bother to disentangle oneself from something transitory?
Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? Does man walk naked?
Paramahaṁsa: No.
Prabhupāda: Why do you take covering? You know everything will be cleared after few hours. Why do you cover?
Paramahaṁsa: It is dangerous now.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, why do you take this step to avoid this?
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: It's uncomfortable. It's not natural.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the Māyāvāda theory; that everything will uncover automatically, why do you bother? That is nonsense.
Karandhara: They will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're a dog.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Eh?
Karandhara: The Māyāvādīs will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they're dogs or cats.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karandhara: They have to have a human body in order to enjoy that philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Their philosophy is that there is only one-God. So cats and dogs, that is God's līlā. That is their rascal philo... God is making pastimes, līlā, by becoming a dog. That is their rascal philosophy. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. Vivekananda's philosophy. Nārāyaṇa has become daridra, poor. Hare Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So with chemists we have no quarrel if they begin from light. They're beginning from darkness. That is our contention. We say, "Begin from light." And they say, "No, begin from darkness." Because they're in darkness. One who is in the darkness, from darkness, if he goes to light, he thinks that the darkness is the beginning.
Paramahaṁsa: In comparison, they always compare.
Prabhupāda: No, no comparison. It is practical. Suppose you have been in the darkness for millions of years and when you come to the light you think that "Oh, from darkness the light has come." Light, when it becomes dimmed, that is darkness. Not that (from) darkness, light has come.
Kṛṣṇa-kāntī: Darkness cannot exist without light.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Or in the light there is no darkness. When the light is dimmed that is darkness. Similarly, when Kṛṣṇa consciousness is dimmed, that is material.