Mrs. Wells: I can see what Father Tanner means about the spiritual man on the outside not necessarily being pure on the inside.
Prabhupāda: No, he's not spiritual man. He's a hypocrite. He must be inside and outside correct. If one is outside correct, inside wrong, he's not spiritual man. We don't accept him.
Mrs. Wells: But you begin with the outside.
Prabhupāda: No. Inside and outside, both.
Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man.
Prabhupāda: Outside man?
Mrs. Wells: The actions...
Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person.
Prabhupāda: Outward manifestation?
Guest 1: Hm.
Prabhupāda: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me?
Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron.
Prabhupāda: But you put the iron in the fire...
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.
Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to...
Prabhupāda: So long you keep in spiritual activities.
Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning?
Prabhupāda: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent.
Father Tanner: But, you see, in your example, if you take your iron...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...which is hot...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...once it's been immersed into the, you know, fire and is hot, then it must always burn, whatever you touch.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore I say...
Father Tanner: It's become... If you take your person, your spiritual man, or the person who's trying to become a spiritual man, and he could have done his best to make his contact with the spirit, he doesn't always after that be spiritual. You know. your iron has to burn. He hasn't got to be spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, no. As the... If you keep the iron always hot, it is fire. Is it not? Similarly, if you always keep yourself within the spiritual activities, then you are spirit.
Father Tanner: You see, I don't think that the spiritual activities which are external forms can really...
Prabhupāda: No.
Father Tanner: ...of themselves change the internal man.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it changes.
Father Tanner: Now, I...
Prabhupāda: Actually, You can see here.
Father Tanner: You can have a person who goes to church every Sunday, who says his prayers...
Prabhupāda: No, our program is not like that, we go after seven days. We are twenty-four hours engaged.
Father Tanner: Yes, yes. But all I'm saying is you can have this, and they are not spiritual.
Prabhupāda: No, why not spiritual?
Father Tanner: And, you know, I don't know your disciples...
Prabhupāda: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Yes.
Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty-four hour a day, you know, exercises...
Prabhupāda: Yes, our program is like that.
Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual.
Prabhupāda: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times ārati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Kṛṣṇa. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Kṛṣṇa. This is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So... Or they are going to saṅkīrtana party. That is also Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them.
Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing.
Prabhupāda: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Kṛṣṇa. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.