Popworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made was not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible, I don't say this to justify the killing of animals. But it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoe box, and then add more two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me, and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it... It seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing.
Prabhupāda: It is more shocking than killing?
Popworth: Far more.
Vicitravīrya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Popworth: And young cows, calves are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food, milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins, to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down.
Prabhupāda: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals.
Revatīnandana: No, he's talking... He's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him...
Haṁsadūta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop.
Popworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are...
Haṁsadūta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter.
Prabhupāda: It is nice.
Haṁsadūta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then the animals are free. They can go everywhere.
Popworth: I think you are avoiding the point.
Revatīnandana: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. The next stage of brute mentality... They're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not?
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Not within the womb.
Haṁsadūta: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory.
Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty... Well, I happen to be a vegetarian.
Revatīnandana: Yes.
Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices, I think one should be a bit careful. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all, all throughout history...
Haṁsadūta: Therefore all throughout history...
Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't...
Haṁsadūta: ...you haven't... Why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat..., animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means...
Prabhupāda: Pollution.
Haṁsadūta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting... Just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction-air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed.
Popworth: You think like this?
Haṁsadūta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's... There are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction.
Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good, a good formula on this, and...
Haṁsadūta: It's common sense. That's all.
Prabhupāda: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy.
Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat...
Prabhupāda: No, no strict Buddhist will say.
Schumacher: ...but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Schumacher: So they let the Muslims kill the animals.
Revatīnandana: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take... If the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal-killer.
Schumacher: Well, that is...
Revatīnandana: If I sell the meat if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat if I eat the meat I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic... There's a Vedic verse that explains it.
Vicitravīrya: As a matter of course.
Prabhupāda: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking, in this way... Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution.
Revatīnandana: This, this...
Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian.
Revatīnandana: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue.
Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it.
Revatīnandana: Oh, it changes everything immediately.
Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty-thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London... Now I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, let them come here. We will...
Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic...
Haṁsadūta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming.
Prabhupāda: Because there are restriction.
Schumacher: That is not, that is not... That doesn't meet my point. My point is...
Haṁsadūta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Kṛṣṇa can provide place for any number of His...
Prabhupāda: Millions.
Haṁsadūta: ...devotees. Any number.
Popworth: I found this the other day, and you'll forgive me making this point, but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest to listen to what he has to say. Then answer him.
Revatīnandana: But... Just that this is interesting, that the solution is there...
Schumacher: But you haven't heard the problem yet.
Revatīnandana: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: But one thing...
Revatīnandana: Why they cannot understand?
Prabhupāda: Mister, yes... I forgot your name.
Popworth: John.
Prabhupāda: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world.
Popworth: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (BG 10.12). God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure, all failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it.
Schumacher: I agree with that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathe... (SB 5.18.12). This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenāsati dhāvato bahiḥ. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.