Hayagrīva: This is Henri Bergson, additional notations. (break) Śrīla Prabhupāda? If you could move. I don't think it would be good to have something between me and the microphone, because it might... Nothing between me and the microphone.
Hari-śauri: Well, can we do this?
Hayagrīva: Close? Oh, all right. Bergson maintained that God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience. The creative effort is of God, if it is not God Himself. Knowledge of God leads to activity not passivity.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Knowledge of God is activity. Just like bhakti, we are twenty-four hours active, not that we are meditating on. So it is service. God says that anyone who preaches this message of Bhagavad-gītā, that is activity. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order, that you, all of you, become guru. To become guru means activity, to train the disciples. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is full of activity for giving, rendering service to God, Kṛṣṇa. It is activity.
Hayagrīva: The word..., the word "mystic" is not a very clear word. It can mean so many different things. When he says God's reality can only be intuited by mystical experience, one doesn't really know what this means.
Prabhupāda: No, mystical... One who does not know God, for him it is mystical, but one who knows God, he takes orders from God. This is defined, ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuśīlanam (CC Madhya 19.167), means favorably working for satisfaction of God. But if one's idea of God is not clear, he thinks it is mystical, but one who has got clear idea of God, clear order from God, then it is not mystical but it is practical.
Hayagrīva: He believed that mystics—he uses the words "mystics," not-mystics participate in God's love for mankind and aid the divine purpose.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the...
Hayagrīva: This is the real meaning of creative evolution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone is in ignorance due to long separation from God. In the material world the living entity has forgotten his relationship with God; therefore his activities are only sense gratification, like the animals. And when he is given lesson, instruction how to become God conscious, how to love God, that is activity, and that is real life. Otherwise it is animal life. The religion is a kind of faith, sentiment, but when the religious system is understood on the basis of good logic and philosophy, that becomes perfect understanding of God. Without philosophy, religious understanding is sentiment. That sentiment does not help anyone very much. It continues for some time, then people become disinterested in the matter of religion. So religion means, as it is stated in the Bhāgavata, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, how one has learned to love God. Then it is religion. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje (SB 1.2.6). Adhokṣaja means we do not see God eye to eye at the present moment in our physical condition, but still, hearing about Him, we can develop our dormant love for God. That is real religion.
Hayagrīva: Bergson saw the greatest obstacle to this creative evolution to be the struggle with materialism, and he felt that politics and economic reforms cannot help matters.
Prabhupāda: No. These are different subject matter. It... Politics or economic development can help, provided it is guided properly. Otherwise, if the politics, economic development is aimed at understanding God and our relationship with God, then politics is all right. Otherwise it does not help at all. But this, so far Vedic civilization is concerned, the society is divided into eight division, varṇa and āśrama. So the sannyāsī, the brāhmaṇa, they are meant for educating the others to develop dormant God consciousness. And the kṣatriyas, they are to support these teachings of God consciousness because that is the objective of human life. But unfortunately, they have forgotten everything. They think simply taking care of the body and live comfortably and enjoy sense gratification. That is animal civilization; that is not human civilization.
Hayagrīva: He felt that the spirit of mysticism must be kept alive by the fortunate few who know God until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Actually they are trying to change the whole situation. The perfect social order is, as I have already mentioned it, that is perfect society when they have learned how to love God, without any motive, as natural behavior between the father and the son, and the son and the father, mother and the son. That is real perfection, perfection of society. Godless society is animal society. It is not to be adored.
Hayagrīva: What could..., what must he mean by "until such time as a profound change in the material conditions imposed on humanity by nature should permit in spiritual matters of a profound transformation?" What kind of...
Prabhupāda: Transformation.
Hayagrīva: ...change in material condition would permit...
Prabhupāda: Material condition is the four principles of bodily demands: eating, sleeping, sex and defense. This is material condition. So when the human society... Just like at the present moment they are simply interested in these four things, how to eat nicely, palatable dishes, or very nice table, chair and so on and so on. But after all, this is eating. And similarly, living condition. Formerly people used to live very humbly. Now they are living very, very big, big skyscraper building. But that is living. Similarly sex. Formerly also a crude society, also they have sex. The animals, also they have sex. And to make gorgeous arrangement for sex, to make the women easily available or freely available, nicely dressed, this is also simply sex. Similarly defense. Either you defend with crude weapons or you atom bomb, this is defensing.
Hayagrīva: So how are these conditions going to change?
Prabhupāda: Change means along with these primary necessities of the body one should understand what is God, what to do for God instead. That is change. That can be done, simply by training.
Hayagrīva: But how are they going to change in order to bring about a profound spiritual transformation?
Prabhupāda: This is spiritual following. Just like we are doing. We are also not neglecting the bodily necessities of life, but our main business is how to advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So this is not supported by the state or the leaders of the society. They think they are unnecessary because they are animals. So that is the... If the leaders, yad yad ācarati śreṣṭhas tad tad eva itaraḥ janaḥ (BG 3.21), that is, every leading man accept that this is necessary. Just like we say "No illicit sex." So if the state helps, it can stop immediately. "No meat-eating": the state can immediately do it, "No slaughterhouse." If somebody says that it is enforcement for a person who wants to eat meat and the state has stopped, no. State at least can do this, that state is not going to maintain slaughterhouse. If you want to eat meat, you can kill an animal at your own house, but state is not going to commit these sinful activities, statewise. That is changed in every respect. No more breweries. State cannot maintain the manufacturing of liquor. If anyone individual wants, he can prepare for himself, but he cannot sell, he cannot induce others to take. He can for his personal (indistinct), he can take. In that case, state is giving liberty, "If you want eating meat, so do." But that is not encouragement; that is discouragement. That is Vedic injunction. Vedic injunction is that yes, you can have sex, but get yourself married properly like gentlemen and ladies do. But sex will not be allowed unrestricted intermingling of men and women and prostitution, brothels. That state has to stop. In this way whole thing can be revolutionized, and the society will be completely in human civilization and God consciousness. That is wanted.
Hayagrīva: Bergson felt... He was... Bergson was optimistic in that he felt that eventually the mystics, through love, will help mankind back to Godhead.
Prabhupāda: He has used that word "back to Godhead"?
Hayagrīva: Well, no, but "back to God."
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Hayagrīva: I put "head" there.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the real purpose of human life. Nature gives him the opportunity in the evolutionary process to get the human form of body. Now, here is a chance. He can read books, he can read Vedas, he can take instruction from the spiritual master. These opportunities are there. So that should be encouraged. That is human civilization. Simply to keep him in darkness, and that he is body and bodily necessities of life is the only business, it is a very suicidal civilization. That is not civilization. It is animal status of life.
Hayagrīva: Within the world Bergson sees nothing but constant, unceasing change. He even sees ego change. He says, "If our existence were composed of separate states with an impassive ego to unite them, for us there would be no duration, for an ego which does not change does not endure, and a psychic state which remains the same so long as it is not replaced by the following state does not endure either." So he sees the psychic state of the individual in the ego and all that the ego contains as cognitively changing.
Prabhupāda: This is false ego, that "I am this body." So it has to be changed by education, that "You are not this body." Then when he understands that he is spirit soul, then the activities of the spirit soul begin, mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54). That is stated in Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā, that first of all he has to understand that he is not this material body; he is spirit soul. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). Within this body the soul is there, and that soul is Brahman, spiritual. People, if they do not understand this, so they are in the animal status of life. But if he understands that he is not this body, then his struggle for existence, to maintain the body, stops. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). That it is, when he understands that he is not this body, then his unnecessary endeavor to keep the body in comfortable position without the, without executing the business of spiritual life, then he is kept in darkness. So when one understands that he is spirit soul, so how to elevate the spirit soul to the highest perfection, that will be the main business. So that is wanted. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Then he understands that "Not only I am spirit soul, but everyone is spirit soul," then equal, equipoised. Every spirit soul should be given the chance of perfect understanding, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. Then activities of devotional service. If everyone is engaged in devotional service, then he gradually comes to the state of loving God, prema. Premā pumartho mahān. So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has recommended perfection of human life is how to raise oneself to the platform of loving God. That is perfection. Otherwise it is not perfect society.