Dr. Patel: Why I come so early and all that. Shall I say, sir?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel:
- prasaṅgam ajaraṁ pāśam
- ātmanaḥ kavayo viduḥ
- sa eva sādhuṣu kṛto
- mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam
That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir.
Prabhupāda: No, you explain.
Dr. Patel: It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavata that your mind, atmanaḥ prasaṅga, the saṅga. Saṅga means attachment.
Prabhupāda: Prasaṅgam.
Dr. Patel: Prasaṅga and saṅga, the same.
Prabhupāda: No, no. Prakṛṣṭa-rupena saṅga. Very tight.
Dr. Patel: Saṅga. Very tight saṅga, very tight attachment of mind is there always.
Prabhupāda: Not mind, of the soul.
Dr. Patel: atmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are... There is always there, ajara, undying. "But if that attachment is made to a sādhu, that becomes mokṣa-dvāram apāvṛtam, that becomes opening of the door of mokṣa." So I come here to sādhuṣu kṛtaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Similarly, another śloka is made by Rūpa Gosvāmī. He is praying to Kṛṣṇa that "As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I'll have upon You?" This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Puṁsam striya mithuni-bhavam etad. This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunadi-gṛhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvāmī is praying, "When I will have the same attachment for You." Yuvatinam yatha yunoḥ. (break)
Dr. Patel: ...have something else in Gujarati. Indriya nila... (Gujarati) "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, (Gujarati)..." That is the bhakti, when you do same action for (Gujarati) God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the difference between kāma and prema. Kāma means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said, atmendriya-tṛpti-vañcha tara nāma kāma: "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kāma." And kṛṣṇendriya-tṛpti-vañcha dhare prema nāma.
Dr. Patel: That is prema.
Prabhupāda: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Kṛṣṇa's senses, that is prema."
Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.
Prabhupāda: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopīs. It looks like kāma but it is prema.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopīs really, they are kāma-toṣa, and when they touched the sacred feet of Kṛṣṇa their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don't become gopīs because the husband hasn't got that qualities like Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa was above three guṇas, so they became tri-guṇātita, all gopīs. Actually they were motivated by kama, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Kṛṣṇa, they converted themselves beyond all the three guṇas. Because God is not within the māyā, He is above it, so anything which was there comes above it.
Prabhupāda: (break) ...understanding Kṛṣṇa's position, if one... Kṛṣṇa...
Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rasa-līlā.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don't understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Kṛṣṇa was just like them, and then they certify(?) themselves with gopīs, what they would do with gopīs.
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ (BG 9.11). Paraṁ bhāvam ajānantaḥ. Param (Hindi) Otherwise it is...
Dr. Patel: It is said that gopīs were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen.
Prabhupāda: (break) Eternal companion of Kṛṣṇa. ananda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhāvitābhis tābhir ya eva nija-rūpatayā kalābhiḥ (Bs. 5.37). Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāva. The gopīs are expansion of Kṛṣṇa's ananda-cinmāyā-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvāmī, tyaktvā tūrṇam aśeṣa-maṇḍala-pati-śreṇīṁ sadā tucchavat. (Hindi) Tucchavat. But the engagement was gopī-bhāva-rasāmṛtābdhi-laharī. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (BG 2.59).
Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right sir. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there and that never goes away from anyone with God.
Prabhupāda: Paraṁ dṛṣṭi, sādhu... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Hm. Because they are the agents of param.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mokṣa-dvāra apāvṛtam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (break) Bhakti without jñāna can be practiced. So when there is bhakti, automatically there is jñāna.
- vāsudeve bhagavati
- bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ
- janayaty āśu vairāgyaṁ
- jñānaṁ ca yad ahaitukam
- (SB 1.2.7)
Without bhakti there is no jñāna. But without jñāna bhakti can be practiced.
Devotee: Jaya. Haribol.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Yes. Otherwise why Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. (Hindi) Stri, śūdra or vaiśya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Kṛṣṇa says, striya śūdrās tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ (BG 9.32). (Hindi) Vāsudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ (SB 1.2.7). When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vāsudeva, janayaty āśu vairāgyam. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Jñāna means only God is right, Kṛṣṇa is right, and all this is wrong.
Prabhupāda: No, jñāna means... Real jñāna means "We don't want this material world." That is jñāna. That is vairāgya because people are attached to this material world, and jñāna means completely detached. But he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jñāna means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.
Dr. Patel: That is because the people have atmā-buddhi and kunape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: These rascals talk of jñāna, but they keep full attachment for this material world.
Dr. Patel: The kunape tri-dhātuke.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Jñāna-vairāgyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jñāna. If one is not disgusted—he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die—then where is jñāna? There is no jñāna. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's disciples said, ara nare bak. Ara nare bak. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gītā,
- daivī hy eṣā guṇa-mayi
- mama māyā duratyayā
- mām eva ye prapadyante
- māyām etāṁ taran...
- (BG 7.14)
This is the way. (aside) Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya.