Doctor: But this Kaṭha-Upaniṣad praises om.
- etad ālambanaṁ śreṣṭhaṁ
- etad ālambanaṁ param
- etad ālambanaṁ jñātvā
- brahma-loke mahīyate
Prabhupāda: Yes, Upaniṣad is giving lesson, counter part of this material world. Because... Just like you are stressing on oṁkāra because you do not give much importance to Kṛṣṇa. In the material world, Kṛṣṇa, they think Kṛṣṇa is one of the historical persons. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam (BG 9.11). So Upaniṣad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Kṛṣṇa. Upa-niṣat. To bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conceptions, if we say that "Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore... Oṁkāra is Kṛṣṇa. So you are giving lesson on oṁkāra. Although Kṛṣṇa and oṁkāra is not different, but you'll not like Kṛṣṇa. In your present position you'll not like Kṛṣṇa's name.
Doctor: Why?
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore you are stressing...
Doctor: No, I have read all this and I am trying to reconcile.
Prabhupāda: So that is for the neophytes.
Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Om is Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is om.
Prabhupāda: So if Kṛṣṇa is... If you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Kṛṣṇa?
Doctor: No, no.
Prabhupāda: Why should you bring so many objections?
Doctor: Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.
Doctor: Ete cāṁśa-kalāḥ puṁsaḥ kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28).
Prabhupāda: But because I do not like, therefore Upaniṣads give another chance, that "Chant oṁkāra." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Kṛṣṇa.
- yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
- janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
- te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
- bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
- (BG 7.28)
Kṛṣṇa bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not every one is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upaniṣad is Veda.
Doctor: Based on Vedas. Right.
Prabhupāda: Based. Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam (BG 15.15). By studying Vedas, Upaniṣads, if you do not understand Kṛṣṇa, that means your study is not complete. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (BG 7.19). After studying this indirect information of Kṛṣṇa, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Kṛṣṇa. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (BG 7.19). That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence.
Doctor: Śrī-kṛṣṇas tu śaraṇaṁ mama.
Prabhupāda: Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahātmā, is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (SB 1.3.28). Vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti (BG 7.19). That is very difficult.
- manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
- kaścid yatati siddhaye
- yatatām api siddhānāṁ
- kaścin māṁ vetti tattvataḥ
- (BG 7.3)
It is not so easy to understand Kṛṣṇa or to accept Kṛṣṇa as all in all. Vāsudevaḥ sarvam. But if you take it, you are fortunate.
Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru (BG 18.65). Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Kṛṣṇa and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Kṛṣṇa is nirākāra. God is nirākāra.
Doctor: Then Kṛṣṇa will not come.
Prabhupāda: Well now, Kṛṣṇa... You... Whatever you think, that is your business, but Kṛṣṇa is there everywhere.
Doctor: He is nirākāra and sākāra.
Prabhupāda: Nirākāra means He has no material ākāra. That is nirākāra. Ākāra means we have got... Just like I have conception of you. So this ākāra is your material ākāra. It is not your real ākāra. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe (BG 2.13). The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward... Just like seeing his dress, his... That's all.