Karandhara: Dreamers. That we dream. We make up fantasies about God and heaven, but actually . . .
Prabhupāda: Why fancies? You have no brain to understand; therefore you say, "fancy."
Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses.
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand . . . here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water—direct perception. Who has made it?
Karandhara: Well, they say: "If it was made by a God, we'd be able to see Him just like the sand."
Prabhupāda: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the śāstra says: "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?
Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supermundane. They only consider the mundane vision.
Prabhupāda: Yes, supermundane, everything is supermundane. Because . . . how do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me: "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.
Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say: "Still, we cannot . . . even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see."
Prabhupāda: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept.
Karandhara: Because what we're told may be wrong.
Prabhupāda: May be wrong, that is your misfortune. But the process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But they want experimental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They want experimental knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is experimental.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say: "It cannot be proved."
Prabhupāda: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the . . . this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it.
Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say.
Prabhupāda: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are . . . those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.
Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to . . .
Prabhupāda: There is no question of transcending. Practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.