Prabhupāda: Physical, everything is physical, subtle and gross. Suppose I am seeing you face to face. So I remember your face. When you are not here, I am thinking of you, I am not seeing you? This is also physical. I am seeing with the mind, I am seeing with the eyes. So what is the difference between eyes and mind? They are all physical. Why do you take only the eyes as physical, not the mind? There are physical elements—earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all physical. So either see with your eyes or either see with your mind, it is physical.
Ali: Is the seeing important?
Prabhupāda: No, important. No, because if you have no eyes to see spiritual, you have to see physically, and they are all physical. Either you see with your eyes or touch with your hand or smell with your nose or lick up with your tongue, everything is physical.
Ali: I can feel the presence of a thing, dominating things.
Prabhupāda: Presence is there. Because just like a nice mango, so you cannot appreciate this mango simply by seeing. Natural tendency when you get a good mango, you smell. So why not see, sufficient? Why you smell? So these are all misconceptions. Different things have to be realized in different processes. Suppose you are a good singer, I see you. So I cannot appreciate simply by seeing you. I shall ask you, "All right, please sing one song." When I hear you, then I shall appreciate. Is it not? So the physical experience by different senses, gross and subtle senses.
Ali: Our senses are imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Senses are imperfect always. Therefore we have to develop the perfect senses. That is spiritual. Just like you are working with your hands, this is physical. But this hand is not working. The spirit soul within the body, he is working. As soon as he is out, what is the value of your hand? When the spirit soul is out of your body, then I am asking you, "Mr. Ali, Mr. Ali, get up." Who is hearing? Your ear is there, but you cannot hear—finished. Therefore the spiritual senses, that is real sense. Do you follow what I say? You have got ear, but when the spirit soul is out of your body, in spite of possessing this physical ear, you cannot hear.
Ali: I believe in this when . . . because when I dream . . .
Prabhupāda: No, believe or not believe, these are facts, that physical senses are not absolute.
Ali: That's exactly what I mean. It's so obvious.
Prabhupāda: Physical senses not absolute; it is the spiritual senses that acts through the physical instrument and utilize it.
Ali: I feel man has already accepted his physical deficiency. I was just watching Olympic, and it seemed so pathetic, they were just trying to jump higher and higher, and they couldn't do it.
Prabhupāda: No, the physical senses are to be spiritualized. You cannot appreciate God by physical senses. But when your physical senses are purified and it is spiritualized, then you can.
Ali: That's exactly what I meant when I said that whatever I perceive . . .
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is process, how to . . . just like iron rod, it is iron rod, but if you put into the process, that means if you put into the fire, a time will come the iron rod will be red hot and it is fire. Similarly, if you engage your physical senses only . . . (aside) Here is candle.
Jñānagamya: Any matches here?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you engage your physical senses in the service of the Lord, then the physical quality of the senses will be diminished or gone, your spiritual sense activities will begin. This is practical.
Ali: Are we closer to this practicality when we sleep?
Prabhupāda: Yes, when you are practiced. Sleep means what you do when you are awakened, the same thing you'll dream, that's all. Physical, I've told you there are two phases of senses: gross and subtle. When the gross senses are not working, the subtle senses work. Just like you dream, your mind is working. Although your hands and legs are taking rest, but mind is working. That is dreaming. So there are two phases of physical senses: gross and subtle. When the gross senses are stopped, the subtle senses continue to work. And when you are above even subtle senses, that is spiritual. Sometimes we misunderstand subtle senses are spiritual. No. Spiritual senses are different from the subtle senses.
Ali: These are the different stages.